From nobody Thu Jan 6 03:21:09 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB5123A0406 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 03:21:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dOrTm2eXD6Jz for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 03:21:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72f.google.com (mail-qk1-x72f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEBB23A0404 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 03:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72f.google.com with SMTP id b85so2317408qkc.1 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 03:21:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language :from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to; bh=XLAA2jhTbVsacwws5fTkav2uxLW4pZ8vRXCHnPdUdvc=; b=qBt8SsBaSN2xMLig924oVMnFZxYPZPyLIcquUhU4tiFXFmbvCw5/e43ZLrrAYMG7y4 IF+7RaioKfvvRWTXr5SzUJTy7e1hc4tfYLraglozyKSJyQzNn6PRs1LP5M0NvuBOOoRO w/J9Kqq3CrYqi4lpVrQ/fI0sMgKDywS4wqpos= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to; bh=XLAA2jhTbVsacwws5fTkav2uxLW4pZ8vRXCHnPdUdvc=; b=BsHQ3KkqqUPuPy7xGzB+jgtYqXYRG9HCnpPQuqQlgsNXfTrcSGmQPZrN1i3i0Nw/dz oKvL031IfdGe8teLBtY0vXPHjlKJnwDHWf2/vpjiZqWARvMkJo/cnDAPb3xfh7yHVWbA ZFGLUrjkTxnlpRxi+OaGB6yGGtaMF7F2nlUtUG8ecNbAJ5AjYtmxlZmFGr4iRPFLCedl QLUg8JjViA2y2ndn9Cst/P1XH1eG8vA/EUMUwl+8qWq7LmHF9JzXXiEBshSTxY7iGw31 onUuK3zs+w7qr2vKXrl0SM6SB0hcN/zHyfpwkcgVfek3XBAYjf3XlaIp5OB+eXXE4Uel sylw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530qqW22R7MR0DMC/2EvP56uv0ahmeu9g/W7JaGsQz9iCeU9JAJO Fsq+Hjsrq7waJlos17pOrufXZHr/Xe3cYw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwjptcWhIKlJldZmkKdbFQkrZvc+JIuDB+QjABYNFOiBxWtTC75QjKHLsGyrXZDPZ1oiFOxxg== X-Received: by 2002:a37:415:: with SMTP id 21mr42857306qke.661.1641468060783; Thu, 06 Jan 2022 03:21:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPV6:2601:14d:8300:c190:b957:2b46:7d7e:44b6? ([2601:14d:8300:c190:b957:2b46:7d7e:44b6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y15sm1282679qko.74.2022.01.06.03.20.59 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Jan 2022 03:21:00 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------cUHd0hrWSjJTfL3GMj1smorZ" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 06:20:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:96.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/96.0 Content-Language: en-US From: Mallory Knodel To: manycouches@ietf.org Cc: "lars@eggert.org" , "shmoo-chairs@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] redrafting complete Re: New draft charter X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 11:21:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------cUHd0hrWSjJTfL3GMj1smorZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Thanks a lot for the discussion on the charter. @Lars please could you update the datatracker to change the charter from draft to final? Best, -Mallory On 12/10/21 3:50 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote: > Hi all, > > As per the last meeting Suresh has finalised a new version of the > draft charter for the group. Lars has just put it in the datatracker > as per the below. > > Thanks in advance for your comments, > -Mallory > > > On Friday, December 10, 2021, IETF Secretariat > wrote: > > State changed to Draft Charter. > Datatracker URL: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-shmoo/ > > > > > > -- > Mallory Knodel > CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology > gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 > > -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 --------------cUHd0hrWSjJTfL3GMj1smorZ Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all,

Thanks a lot for the discussion on the charter. @Lars please could you update the datatracker to change the charter from draft to final?

Best,

-Mallory

On 12/10/21 3:50 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote:
Hi all,

As per the last meeting Suresh has finalised a new version of the draft charter for the group. Lars has just put it in the datatracker as per the below.

Thanks in advance for your comments,
-Mallory


On Friday, December 10, 2021, IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org> wrote:
State changed to Draft Charter.
Datatracker URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-shmoo/




--
Mallory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780


-- 
Mallory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780
--------------cUHd0hrWSjJTfL3GMj1smorZ-- From nobody Thu Jan 6 10:56:55 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietf.org Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759B63A14C3; Thu, 6 Jan 2022 10:56:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: lars@eggert.org, manycouches@ietf.org, shmoo-chairs@ietf.org, suresh@kaloom.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.41.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <164149541339.26707.1141086886663549442@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 10:56:53 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] shmoo - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 18:56:54 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Suresh Krishnan, a Chair of the shmoo working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Stay Home Meet Only Online Area Name: General Area Session Requester: Suresh Krishnan Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): unspecified Number of Attendees: 80 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair conflict: 6man intarea spring pearg hrpc secdispatch Technology overlap: gendispatch Key participant conflict: iabopen quic tsvwg masque panrg People who must be present: Suresh Krishnan Martin Duke Mirja Kuehlewind Lars Eggert Mallory Knodel Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Jan 7 08:26:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CEBF3A0B45 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 08:26:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3XCISPE60UZX for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 08:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-f177.google.com (mail-yb1-f177.google.com [209.85.219.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41C193A0B4B for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 08:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-f177.google.com with SMTP id g80so18362670ybf.0 for ; Fri, 07 Jan 2022 08:26:09 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=AuaDxgLOqlADi/PlY0iar1LWqZ26tQJ65RycyNMfszU=; b=TfvhtAzUQIQjyZ++RvMlmZQqu6zJwGOj1cC1xMMzLuz8ugnSFXAUa/juVzsbWPTYxu zga6RygGOFMXjnZ0Gma/Rpey+DyHFrecQQV/ZD2WAqu1VVXEQ82I3h/cN0JDdIgXZDiP YmMNnewTml0nohsz9mYDlevQ6rGzEsVyaJ7Fq97gMVnsKvxhGYLL5X955gxC3E1AZ/dU 5vnQS1NABFVmI3uKI/qb+jnSYTe0678/XVn2IHqmCPvuuiOnSj0/Yzbl5JROkyYtoP+w /7l1hM7V6VQwoV3D1jougIpbsVwUVxaEQ12Phnee5OE99iqzZzPelsyw3CHHWZoRJFS4 ImJA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530qVHCyDF7eLrfeNpOUMZws+5C9VILcoMUJCbHq/VZil72sZyJO Gqjl02sHyzQS/4PdRDZMekuDiDQXyrBcVuf2ZRRMWo5/ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxAz5YkN5SfWwGDUA80iQ0b2U+y2fw7CVxS+ZdZgfDH049kFEwkL4xt8sponIHvOJ7RYZ0I7qAc8PbHI248/+8= X-Received: by 2002:a25:73c7:: with SMTP id o190mr32264331ybc.108.1641572768239; Fri, 07 Jan 2022 08:26:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 11:25:57 -0500 Message-ID: To: manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b9542c05d50071c7" Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Sad irony X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 16:26:11 -0000 --000000000000b9542c05d50071c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" So now we are entering the re-opening phase and it strikes me that this is actually the hardest part of the whole process. Shutting down was an easy decision because it wasn't much of a decision. It was forced on us. But opening up means having to go to a lot of expense preparing for a meeting knowing that something like omicron can shoot through and shut it down. >From the first discovery of omicron to the omicron surge was 6 weeks. I am pretty confident that we should be OK for Vienna. But instead of being a means of financing operations, the in-person meetings are looking like a liability to me. If we plan for an in-person meeting and have to cancel, IETF is going to lose a lot of money. We can't insure. The hotels are probably being forced to offer flexible terms but those aren't the only costs. --000000000000b9542c05d50071c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So = now we are entering the re-opening phase and it strikes=C2=A0me that this i= s actually the hardest part of the whole process.

Shutting down was an easy decision because it wasn= 't much of a decision. It was forced on us. But opening up means having= to go to a lot of expense preparing for a meeting knowing that something l= ike omicron can shoot through and shut it down.

From the first discovery of omicron to the omicron s= urge was 6 weeks.

I am pr= etty confident that we should be OK for Vienna. But instead of being a mean= s of financing operations, the in-person meetings are looking like a liabil= ity to me.

=

If we plan for an in-per= son meeting and have to cancel, IETF is going to lose a lot of money. We ca= n't insure. The hotels are probably being forced to offer flexible term= s but those aren't the only costs.
--000000000000b9542c05d50071c7-- From nobody Fri Jan 7 13:05:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 131963A076C for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 13:05:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e8K9TEQSkV9P for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 13:05:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0131B3A0766 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 13:05:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 207L52NJ002017 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:05:02 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id E78DD206376 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:05:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD64C206341 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:05:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.76] ([10.14.0.76]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 207L52qI012007 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:05:02 +0100 Message-ID: <79709386-230a-9a26-eab0-905e364687a0@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:05:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <10241fff-1cd7-6690-88b9-9d0e5c0b2ad3@gmail.com> <8ad9821a-d98f-ee72-1081-4ad240e1b4f8@gmail.com> <868e5dec-345f-0abb-1548-effc05e58565@gmail.com> <03054ea7-0310-dec8-afe7-5115b879b86b@gmail.com> <9b113cd8-9f90-5828-41bc-4fea616f6706@gmail.com> <540640517.93063.1639510715958@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5a042b30-bc33-eb58-adfc-87f1bcdf8115@gmail.com> <883f6e40-c63a-ae79-c788-f00b60e1e5aa@gmail.com> <254424220.21178.1640184880701@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <3a94907c-e104-ffaf-07bf-b0e2ecf5a88e@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <3a94907c-e104-ffaf-07bf-b0e2ecf5a88e@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] What others are doing II X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 21:05:10 -0000 Watching how others plan for meetings in-person in March, I can remark a recent tendency: now they state upfront that they might cancel it. It is like they reserve the right to cancel it and if there is a problem in planning then that is not their fault. This should be compared to some weeks ago the organizers were saying that they respect local legislation, simply. This relates to a potential de-responsibilization of the organizer and putting the responsibility 'ultimately' on the individual person seen elsewhere (e.g. see Australia PM recent declaration). Alex Le 22/12/2021 à 21:34, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > I agree with many of your posts. > > Here I must make a remark. IT is a reply to you, but I know that > this is also an oppinion of others, so I take advantage to actually > reply to the oppinion. > > Le 22/12/2021 à 15:54, Vittorio Bertola a écrit : >> >>> Il 22/12/2021 15:41 Alexandre Petrescu >>> ha scritto: >>> >>> >>> I think people dont understand the matters. >>> >>> >>> Austria is proposing mandatory vaccination on Feb. 2nd. If it >>> happens, it will be a first in world. It might not happen >>> because groups are already organizing to make it not work. >>> >>> If it happens, then what does it mean to visitors of Austria? >>> >> The announcement acknowledges that unvaccinated people will almost >> certainly not be able to participate in person, as they will not >> be allowed into the country and/or into the conference centre by >> Austrian laws, and that the IESG has decided that this is ok, as >> they can just participate remotely (like many vaccinated people >> will also do anyway). > > As if we all are experts of Austrian rules and laws now, or that we > have time to become such experts soon, before planning a trip. > > As if Austria laws and rules of covid are so successful that they are > a secret that no other country could replicate. > > Again: we are all interrelated, and it is not like the answer is in a > single one place. > > What people do here impact what others do there. Especially during > these covid times. > > Alex > >> >> -- >> >> Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange >> vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com >> Office @ Via Treviso 12, >> 10144 Torino, Italy >> > > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Fri Jan 7 13:30:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8803C3A08C5 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 13:30:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fq7WHbsFhjKK for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 13:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3886B3A08C3 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 13:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 207LUZ4u005129 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:30:35 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 8170A2065A1 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:30:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F39206376 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:30:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.76] ([10.14.0.76]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 207LUYT1016227 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:30:35 +0100 Message-ID: <6a0ab340-f953-199b-31af-5f6d72ab507f@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:30:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Sad irony X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 21:30:44 -0000 Le 07/01/2022 à 17:25, Phillip Hallam-Baker a écrit : > So now we are entering the re-opening phase and it strikes me that > this is actually the hardest part of the whole process. > > Shutting down was an easy decision because it wasn't much of a > decision. It was forced on us. But opening up means having to go to > a lot of expense preparing for a meeting knowing that something like > omicron can shoot through and shut it down. > > From the first discovery of omicron to the omicron surge was 6 > weeks. > > I am pretty confident that we should be OK for Vienna. But instead > of being a means of financing operations, the in-person meetings are > looking like a liability to me. > > > If we plan for an in-person meeting and have to cancel, IETF is > going to lose a lot of money. We can't insure. The hotels are > probably being forced to offer flexible terms but those aren't the > only costs. Sad irony? Sad yes, irony I dont know To me, March is so far away. I cant see beyond end of this month anyways. Any plan for March is like plans sur la comète, to take a local expression. It is like planning for the leisure of planning, but on a different planet. If we want to look at the curves for Austria then we might think that Austria will not be in a complete low of covid in March. If one accepts that and still want to meet, then one can accept anything anyways. If we look at Austria potential vaccination mandatory situation (all must vaccinate) startind in February, and the current Djokovic debate in Australia (he prefers not vaccinate, so he is forced through quaranteen) then one might wonder what does it mean for Austria in MArch and potential IETFer not wanting vaccine. At that point one might think to compare the curves of all incoming countries to Austria, and then decide on risk factors of one-to-one meetings. For example, it might be possible that meeting a China person in Austria has a lower risk factor than meeting another country's person. But why caring about that anyways. A helping observation: 2 years ago we witnessed on an IETF list a declaration of a person telling masks are not necessary; now, in the country of same person they require higher protection masks (FFP2). At this speed in a year time they might require the FFP3, which is a possibility. To compare, in the country where I live they talk about maybe FFP1 masks, as if we are not the same humans. Or they sell 'sanitizers' boxes (for smartphones and keys) next to masks and tests in hypermarkets, as if they helped kill covid. In other country they put the same blue light in theaters as if they killed the virus in the air. In such context, I am not surprised by _any_ decision. There is apparent talk about 'herd immunity' vs 'zero covid' strategies in the world. They seem to antagonize each other, with negative end results anyways. And all these discussions, despite my obsession, are not worth a dime since we push to meet without _any_ consideration to these aspects anyways. Personally, my question I keep wondering is whether or not I will assist at the next IETF meeting remotely. I already cancelled many invitations to in-person meetings preferring their online version when available, or not participating at all if no online version, but participating online to a meeting that has an in-person component in these circumstances poses a different kind of question to me. Alex > > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Fri Jan 7 13:35:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AEC73A091F for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 13:35:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BQ1a-pv_ZEsl for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 13:35:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 146B23A091E for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 13:35:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 207LZINu005833; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:35:18 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id B2ECB2064FC; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:35:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3EA9206341; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:35:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.76] ([10.14.0.76]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 207LZHMF016966; Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:35:18 +0100 Message-ID: <62765364-f0c0-5507-45b7-605b4fbbb095@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:35:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 From: Alexandre Petrescu To: Andrew Campling , John C Klensin , "manycouches@ietf.org" References: <2f817678-d09b-fcbe-dbce-cdda13503fd7@gmail.com> Content-Language: fr In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] about spread evaluation post-meeting X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 21:35:29 -0000 Le 12/12/2021 à 21:21, Andrew Campling a écrit : > --On Saturday, December 11, 2021 22:53 John C Klensin > wrote: > >> (4) Finally and perhaps most important, in what way would you see >> such an evaluation as being actionable? As has been discussed >> several times before, things change quickly. "Things" include >> virus variants, perceived surges, national and local regulations, >> population vaccination percentage, and so on. If an evaluation >> concludes that one meeting either resulted in few infections or >> many, what would that tell us about decisions we should make about >> the next meeting or the meeting after that? > > I think this is an important point. In terms of any in-person > meeting in the near future, there are reasonable precautions that can > be taken such as looking at the spacing of seats, ventilation, use of > masks, easy access to testing etc. Going much beyond that into, for > example, post-event testing or speculating about future surges, seems > to stray beyond the core competencies of the IETF. I'd prefer to see > energies focused on helping to define the best possible hybrid > meeting experience. I can agree with leveraging more on the core competency at IETF but there is something here. Probably _none_ of these covid-related precautions - neither the reasonable, nor the stray-beyond - represent any IETF competency in normal times: to meet in-person to develop best possible trust to make Internet better. It might be considered that during these special times a new IETF competency could be developped to facilitate going back to the normal-times competency. Alex > > Andrew > > From nobody Sat Jan 8 01:26:29 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C453C3A1140; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 01:26:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q5eKrS07czPf; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 01:26:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DCADA3A113E; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 01:26:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:ed2f:9ce:6184:fec9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C87D71D255A; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 11:26:07 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1641633967; bh=n5zsFcGNMZ/k9RuMiK75/mm8k6G9D6oaS19W7qMyziY=; h=From:Subject:Date:Cc:To; b=NFWru0j71sN81065z124Z7lF9D1RcyjHM1eK9iiccKQcRc59Blv3Pg15UcKNLce3v ihPEFdpBtfs4mn1coWew1dpjTGRUfRD9dmcgsHehVfUzt6s5ZNzYvMFsNl3KL4rkjy xxj5XQEICZLCzSJkdovidLHge7mHSlAaFlaIRpK8= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Lars Eggert Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <56DD453F-7CC0-4A02-B519-6C6750BE6E9A@eggert.org> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 11:26:06 +0200 Cc: manycouches@ietf.org To: Phillip Hallam-Baker X-MailScanner-ID: C87D71D255A.A3030 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Sad irony X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 09:26:27 -0000 =EF=BB=BFHi, I=E2=80=99ll leave it to Jay (who is on vacation at the moment) to provide d= etails, but what you claim below is not correct. We negotiated pretty robust cancellation and cancel-and-rebook terms, hence t= he LLC Board is comfortable with the limited financial risk. Thanks, Lars --=20 Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > On Jan 7, 2022, at 18:26, Phillip Hallam-Baker wro= te: > If we plan for an in-person meeting and have to cancel, IETF is going to l= ose a lot of money. We can't insure. The hotels are probably being forced to= offer flexible terms but those aren't the only costs. From nobody Sat Jan 8 07:33:17 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6023A1756 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 07:33:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0jP0vK4pK6Tj for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 07:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E3A13A1757 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 07:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 208FX8wM009537 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 16:33:08 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 63B81201754 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 16:33:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 593FD200B4F for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 16:33:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.135] ([10.14.0.135]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 208FX8Mf001298 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 16:33:08 +0100 Message-ID: <33b1229a-272b-81aa-515f-187543959f67@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 16:33:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Sad irony X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 15:33:16 -0000 Le 07/01/2022 à 17:25, Phillip Hallam-Baker a écrit : > So now we are entering the re-opening phase and it strikes me that > this is actually the hardest part of the whole process. > > Shutting down was an easy decision because it wasn't much of a > decision. It was forced on us. But opening up means having to go to > a lot of expense preparing for a meeting knowing that something like > omicron can shoot through and shut it down. > > From the first discovery of omicron to the omicron surge was 6 > weeks. > > I am pretty confident that we should be OK for Vienna. But instead > of being a means of financing operations, the in-person meetings are > looking like a liability to me. I wonder what 'a means to finance operations' [in-person meetings are], really means? To me that would be a liability if all agreed that the in-person meeting helped spreading the virus, AND that the 'herd immunity' was not a right strategy overall. None seems to be the case. But it seems that currently more and more signs indicate that everything should open, let the virus spread, let everyone protect as they could, and then we'll see. Signs of this are the UK openings, the Israel openings, and more. The strategy 'herd immunity' also relies on a key reasoning: that of the virus apparent intention to not generate more lethal variants the more it spreads. Some say it cant get worse than delta, and omicron is a proof of that. The reason invoked for that is that the virus needs persons to spread, so it has no 'interest' when there are no persons to use. To me, and I am not a medical person, and the medical persons might know better, this reasoning of 'herd immunity' relies on key concept - that of an intelligent virus, as if it were a human. But it is so difficult to accept such a small virus is so intelligent. I personally think that the way these variants create and spread are completely random events (like real randomness). In that sense, the reasoning of 'herd immunity' might not stand. But there is hope, and the hope is in more science. The science should be used as help. There should be a structure of a scientific board to help in making decisions about IETF meetings. The science should be the science as we know it in Computer Science, and not the science the medicine sometimes is not. Medicine science rarely can tell whether administering a pill to an ill actually saved; if the person is saved some times we dont really know why - was it the pill or was it something else. In terms of real science, that kind of medicine science is not science, bus more probabilities. That science is not using reproducible experiments. A science that talks in terms of probabilities is ok for the position of a smallest particle, but is not ok when predicting human life. A proposed scientific board, or panel, would not be bound to financial interests. For the financial interest: everything should be put on hold for a few months: pay all debt, dont engage any spending. Until this scientific board gives some advice. A scientific board or panel could be sub-contracted too, but at a minimum expense. Alex > > > If we plan for an in-person meeting and have to cancel, IETF is > going to lose a lot of money. We can't insure. The hotels are > probably being forced to offer flexible terms but those aren't the > only costs. > > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Sat Jan 8 12:40:59 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2FF33A0B91 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 12:40:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5DdgeyLEWrXh for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 12:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00143702.pphosted.com (mx0a-00143702.pphosted.com [148.163.145.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B69BB3A0B8F for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 12:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0156892.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00143702.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with ESMTP id 208JeUSO020511; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 15:40:42 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=20190412; bh=TxIU2NTf+snE28xk1ivmbmyWc4vnOMlpBMAetFrVSiM=; b=fx9JRn2bIHyns9Xw/pcPjNZW9cbHX3gz1U4FO1uMJRxORtWZn6EGZg4xKiTqvcVoFFCa 3KYCuxk1sr+jJ9vkFFxESPyIj/Tanzz0s1cz+93C6cwqbUJGbGvaKu3BbIKc5jn7AZe3 a0lRkDbY/IGtBJiAOpk27+yQS8kELft7gdl9xJKclTS31HhvOvVu04vq/N96VNm0B6v6 hh61nUbfXClfGyCSyrjP2ItC9cmDZrnItaODcOYxuEc7LzUzoPGtV+PQ+HeboMaFNylr VqTHQXFrHPLU37IOCuI217uT3bpafMhARKyUYK+Xuz8NFISdsKYr97MdJbnWDw1KBu9n uA== Received: from copdcexc39.cable.comcast.com (dlppfpt-po-1p.slb.comcast.com [96.99.226.137]) by mx0a-00143702.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3df6tnjx2b-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 08 Jan 2022 15:40:42 -0500 Received: from COPDCEXC37.cable.comcast.com (147.191.125.136) by copdcexc39.cable.comcast.com (147.191.125.138) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.20; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 13:40:41 -0700 Received: from COPDCEXEDGE02.resource.comcast.net (76.96.35.199) by COPDCEXC37.cable.comcast.com (147.191.125.136) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.20 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 13:40:40 -0700 Received: from NAM10-BN7-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.70.100) by webmail.comcast.com (76.96.35.199) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 12:40:40 -0800 Received: from MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:f3::22) by BL3PR11MB5748.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:355::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4867.9; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 20:40:32 +0000 Received: from MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a148:cf13:f00:c1ac]) by MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a148:cf13:f00:c1ac%5]) with mapi id 15.20.4867.011; Sat, 8 Jan 2022 20:40:32 +0000 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Lars Eggert , Phillip Hallam-Baker , "manycouches@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Manycouches] Sad irony Thread-Index: AQHYBHHVh+aW+hVy0Eq8ioOq93QjB6xZQz+A Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 20:40:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <56DD453F-7CC0-4A02-B519-6C6750BE6E9A@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <56DD453F-7CC0-4A02-B519-6C6750BE6E9A@eggert.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.56.21121100 x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c3ae2c2d-59f8-41a6-c21d-08d9d2e71d50 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL3PR11MB5748:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(4744005)(86362001)(71200400001)(110136005)(66446008)(186003)(33656002)(66946007)(64756008)(6512007)(2616005)(122000001)(38100700002)(316002)(66476007)(38070700005)(8936002)(66556008)(76116006)(82960400001)(83380400001)(2906002)(8676002)(5660300002)(508600001)(6486002)(6506007)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?utf-8?B?WEdCK2dRUVM0UHhoWDhFV1h2aFpCT2JqdVZlTjJaWGdwTURTOWJLWmRtNlNH?= =?utf-8?B?S1NaU1FQL0txNGd1Q1Flb3RoMmo1enk5bmlYekNXbUV3TDMvalJSb1ZZdEhC?= =?utf-8?B?MGVUVWtvMGd0OVFtWjVjeXh5T3J1MFhyTm1CQkIyNTNDQm85NVlwY3drSEpT?= =?utf-8?B?cVRVTFhiNm5OYzEvS1J1bU5sNWUwdFVkZ3pDcUl6K1QvTEhYQURxckN3UEtz?= =?utf-8?B?K1NqS3FuQ29zN2ZWbVBNYmtDMURCaHhqcENMQmR6aVR4SGxKb1BDbDJyS1Iv?= =?utf-8?B?MDQ4M0h3Y0RLSTVpb3hRRjJEaTgvTFNkcHJ5aUN1VjdJZnNqY2NkaWtSbUE2?= =?utf-8?B?d2dRSkNWRkpHUXVGL1A1aVpuSjdSOFFyK0pOL1kvYWpOcW15UE1ocStUd21E?= =?utf-8?B?T2JXYWRHN1dFbTU4TDVDSTEwUXpQN092dDYvdWpMbmdicTVDcUplSWpzQ3lh?= =?utf-8?B?aVgxcmpmSnpJeUl0RzdYMFh4dDBnYnpYN3pJVmpCZnBwSis2K1VxY044b2VP?= =?utf-8?B?ejI2UTVUWGNZRk9XZG9LRDNZc2VjSDVWTW1hdXp2dG12eXlyYlZyNlZPdDcz?= =?utf-8?B?cTFiQm0wc2Z1dXpGR2VnMzVjWTRzeVZHZ051L0kwenBUbDdEQ0NVdm96dEpn?= =?utf-8?B?c09VRXhaeDRXdCs1Vlo3OFEwb0I4a1pWTEVxTWZJODZ2a0gvTHlsWW5hbmU2?= =?utf-8?B?YXljYVQ4TGFzQW5mYnF3NnV2bzZKQjRaTVlHWXBubC9ja3NEcmNYNUVjYU93?= =?utf-8?B?R25mNGxnOWZvampYME5vanphYnFKTEE2QktEaFRrTUZLblkwVHhlczkzUXZJ?= =?utf-8?B?eStLclRKQSs4bEhRUzJTK2lLcnppY0VKNEhjLzBCU0tUcDVydVZ6bm1pZCtP?= =?utf-8?B?Q0plSmcrRWJlbDB3Vi80MU5ML3k0aHo5bnd6Vm4yM1YwcnBGcVU4enNieW1U?= =?utf-8?B?Uml1Y2F1OS9XYWlTVlZ0RUJSUkFWWUNRSzl2YkpKTFFPTWQxOVRFUFl1YXZv?= =?utf-8?B?YWszSmxCTmYwRTZvK3laWk9qeldOV3hSTkR6OGlZdVBFYkNSQUF4TkxxZGsy?= =?utf-8?B?QjBKSEM1eTFqNUVOamFxdnVqSWo1UkxXTm1pTC9naTJPNUdnY1I2Qm0vUXlW?= =?utf-8?B?TldIcS9UZkh1ZG8wanhFQnZHdXhuRmd3RXgvcE5kUzIyaXI0bkhMQkd1bUxR?= =?utf-8?B?N3JHbU1ESndmTVdWY2dMMlo0UiswU0x0eERjWkR4NlpiNE1tNU9LSFJRZDBa?= =?utf-8?B?VlU2K1RTQ2hmeHRjOHZWTURMMDFqcWx6UVNEc2VNb1M0OWtXZWtYcHU2SW4r?= =?utf-8?B?dGh4dkNxdzErdGZjaXlLUW9YbkNEL2htNGxTSTRJS3VhcFhObHROOW92NmhE?= =?utf-8?B?SlFYMHlLYzZRLzJ5aU9MajVHY0NSSFJHY1R2UURZNVo3ejBQZEJKMkdFOUx6?= =?utf-8?B?RnNYeStyZU9Od3M2YkM5dmlqY3ZNSW9zdm9wTWc1a1ROZjIwYWxzWk50MWtF?= =?utf-8?B?eHcrdnRoRlhmeFl4UUM0bnNTUUk2K3BEenhIZ0hNZ0xKMG9taDd1TlQwdjho?= =?utf-8?B?OTB2OTRLY3ZLMS9hQlBrNGVNTk91VldYMDZXZTBPNzZmRG43RzZpYTJGanZW?= =?utf-8?B?KzhoWjV0RUZMWVJpQm1pK2FUM2ZWcTJqREFOWUdqYWJ5WGcxNnRmaklyREJE?= =?utf-8?B?Z0ZPWHE1OWJYOUZrdFlBV1RZVm84UW8xZElaV2FONEg2OU9jTUlITEwzc3Q0?= =?utf-8?B?UmJxSmxzbzZBbVNkYVRwaHVvaDVTcTVUY2xsL2dMVzN1SERpT2ozOVErYnM2?= =?utf-8?B?N256ZGxwMmVUa0M4ODA1SHB4aTl0ZmxQZElreW9HY2pLNGd0N25RcmQ1bHhu?= =?utf-8?B?eHRsSHVyanBtcUVpd1pjek95WnNnbWVCNGVyVnNvV0xFTStZSGpmcjNVd2l4?= =?utf-8?B?aGFUeWR0NEdIUEZpVFpXb2Zyc01ybmduUmgrWTJEVTRHRDJCUk1Yck5LVFhS?= =?utf-8?B?SFdPeVhKcnFWZDUyeEFDTjVsUUhWSGhVazg3aUNuMWtUeFdnNUdPQjlPMEda?= =?utf-8?B?VXBJMzRjY1drSGdhVE9DeFlNRVhLRjBiOWxHTkJ3TUtrbmdwZlR5R0FYcXpx?= =?utf-8?B?Z29zTFVtYTNpcGZOYmdoL2tkTU9jWUpiQUdHM0FEWk41T2ZlUWliUVllbnpy?= =?utf-8?B?U1EyWG1POWl4amNEeXZQa0pyZE9kTkVHdi9hOWRjOTgzMGlFWmZNS3ZPaXdT?= =?utf-8?B?aFlGNmp4am8rNEVTUm1iNnFyM3BCOG1ET3FJbTFNeHoyT3BQeHhMdEkxYzJv?= =?utf-8?B?eTZ6SHVOY00wL3FjTVRoM2UzQVZlYjhBQ1FzTHhwWE9Gb3E0WEd5cTdSWjNE?= =?utf-8?Q?hAtFe2YPKsfm25hM=3D?= arc-seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=M1GZ86bJLjQzXvh3Ybh496KnWJLjhWW1tCab3/UsSmTQbudjxU+BHuZGisTf07s9DTJQdInfvdlqxlSgNWYkODqlxU5DfppsbWXD7qpWImB5V8gxmrlmzIFawZAG9GDq8lEOAMh+hY3yUefCgOVYVpUT3LTFTSyRUXDxGyHRW1H0R5fAJWGt2cyf0dvZepXZjDOZ6ARuH53oY+DyJLVxjSMRZlao4ANSNkyKSTZnCCFEXcVWjzSqqQCK7gE81X1AVcBYx36NgSvMlwBrYiIi3ZmjOLA/j9lKZUPlJsTD6/V4txGsxG+ahyIoGJhZoBi80Esf1v3rFk32CNaZqi9HMQ== arc-message-signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=NoDcgBlxnYILLa5Ydaok4P0g7X/zHbQwAcBbzQwslbY=; b=GiS5VxZptonXc+DMlnlqmTQkEVA4ZmogNTnok6KNY6eltvVUtlCNGRbssrxOkaSIlqR3z8cWE54eB/Lg17kTxrq/rLo66C39FQPIPagTXFTdhl3VsWnvdcLQw4Cp1lCI0bZYwq7HySLnub3krdEEgRw5ErdmMpRuuKhYU/wTl5V8W3eSwVheZ44Id5HdTeAL3VFvPCEREHcMHQyMWi6NebRZMJyW9wAXLxE+GRy6T4il5ElyHGx0jZKsCKnoWrgNNFb0N7n8KFfFqXuBcTyhN9ff11uEooEvOzYTJa5bJ6cL4Rgc0Kh9sjztV3fKHQ4Y4Slz1nlG9COx0zUjYVLy+A== arc-authentication-results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cable.comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=cable.comcast.com; arc=none x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authas: Internal x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authsource: MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-network-message-id: c3ae2c2d-59f8-41a6-c21d-08d9d2e71d50 x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Jan 2022 20:40:31.8797 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: 4lHH8l6Zad/dv/gPngyEwgEjQwvCAFCz1lYt4NGgMsQ5Nd2fN4NQTtB6PSJAnrrpNnkJ5dKA4nPCxIFtiI+gnn8AfL9DKBsobvVpaL7+x+s= x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: BL3PR11MB5748 x-originatororg: cable.comcast.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWM X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: dr169h__Odm4wzkD-bpf2e3F3UL2r4a9 X-Proofpoint-GUID: dr169h__Odm4wzkD-bpf2e3F3UL2r4a9 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2022-01-08_08,2022-01-07_01,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Sad irony X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 20:40:57 -0000 PiBJ4oCZbGwgbGVhdmUgaXQgdG8gSmF5ICh3aG8gaXMgb24gdmFjYXRpb24gYXQgdGhlIG1vbWVu dCkgdG8gcHJvdmlkZSBkZXRhaWxzLCBidXQgd2hhdCB5b3UgY2xhaW0gYmVsb3cgaXMgbm90IGNv cnJlY3QuDQo+IFdlIG5lZ290aWF0ZWQgcHJldHR5IHJvYnVzdCBjYW5jZWxsYXRpb24gYW5kIGNh bmNlbC1hbmQtcmVib29rIHRlcm1zLCBoZW5jZSB0aGUgTExDIEJvYXJkIGlzIGNvbWZvcnRhYmxl IHdpdGggdGhlIGxpbWl0ZWQgZmluYW5jaWFsIHJpc2suDQoNClNpbmNlIEpheSBpcyBvbiBob2xp ZGF5LCBhcyBMYXJzIG5vdGVkLCBJJ2xsIHJlcGx5IGhlcmUgYnJpZWZseS4gVGhlcmUgaXMgYSB0 eXBpY2FsIGNhbmNlbGxhdGlvbiBmZWUgc2NoZWR1bGUgLSB3aGVyZSB0aGUgZmVlIGluY3JlYXNl cyB1cCB0byB0aGUgdG90YWwgbWVldGluZyBjb3N0IGFzIHRoZSBkYXRlIGFwcHJvYWNoZXMuIE1v cmUgaW1wb3J0YW50bHksIHRoZXJlIGlzIE5PIGNhbmNlbGxhdGlvbiBmZWUgaWYgYW5vdGhlciBt ZWV0aW5nIGlzIGJvb2tlZCBpbiBhdCB0aGUgdmVudWUgaW4gdGhlIG5leHQgc2V2ZXJhbCB5ZWFy cy4gVGhpcyBpcyB0aGUgc29ydCBvZiBjbGF1c2UgdGhlIElFVEYgaGFzIGV4ZXJjaXNlZCBtYW55 IHRpbWVzIChldmVuIHByZS1DT1ZJRCkuDQoNCkpheSBhbmQgdGhlIFNlY3JldGFyaWF0IGhhdmUg ZG9uZSB0aGVpciBiZXN0IHRvIG5lZ290aWF0ZSBnb29kIHRlcm1zIHRvIG1pdGlnYXRlIHRoZSBy aXNrIGFyaXNpbmcgZnJvbSBmdWxsIGNhbmNlbGxhdGlvbi4gQXQgdGhlIHNhbWUgdGltZSwgaXQg aXMgY2xlYXIgd2UgYXJlIG9wZXJhdGluZyBpbiB1bnByZWNlZGVudGVkIHRpbWVzIG9mIHVuY2Vy dGFpbnR5IGFuZCBhcmUgZG9pbmcgdGhlIGJlc3Qgd2UgY2FuIHRvIG1hbmFnZSAmIG1pdGlnYXRl IHRoYXQgdG8gdGhlIGV4dGVudCBwb3NzaWJsZS4NCg0KSmFzb24NCg0KDQo= From nobody Sun Jan 9 03:04:55 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 919C23A122B for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 03:04:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8D2KFREHB5-n for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 03:04:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 918493A1228 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 03:04:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 209B4i9c022659 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 12:04:44 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 6210620154D for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 12:04:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586D9200C27 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 12:04:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.196] ([10.14.0.196]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 209B4i0C014337 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2022 12:04:44 +0100 Message-ID: <310e0a8e-4881-5884-eada-ceb47ca98a96@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 12:04:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.1 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <56DD453F-7CC0-4A02-B519-6C6750BE6E9A@eggert.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Sad irony X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2022 11:04:53 -0000 Le 08/01/2022 à 21:40, Livingood, Jason a écrit : >> I’ll leave it to Jay (who is on vacation at the moment) to provide >> details, but what you claim below is not correct. We negotiated >> pretty robust cancellation and cancel-and-rebook terms, hence the >> LLC Board is comfortable with the limited financial risk. > > Since Jay is on holiday, as Lars noted, I'll reply here briefly. > There is a typical cancellation fee schedule - where the fee > increases up to the total meeting cost as the date approaches. More > importantly, there is NO cancellation fee if another meeting is > booked in at the venue in the next several years. This is the sort > of clause the IETF has exercised many times (even pre-COVID). > > Jay and the Secretariat have done their best to negotiate good terms > to mitigate the risk arising from full cancellation. At the same > time, it is clear we are operating in unprecedented times of > uncertainty and are doing the best we can to manage & mitigate that > to the extent possible. SOme ideas from elsewhere in similar planning for MArch: probably it would make sense to state a likely cancellation possibility right where it says 'IETF in Vienna'. And - from me - tell every 2-3 days: today we dont cancel, today we dont cancel, etc. Also, qualify most statements with a date on the covid page https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/covid-related-requirements/ > Proof of Vaccination > > All Participants must be able to show proof of vaccination with an > EMA-approved vaccine against COVID-19. EMA-approved vaccines > currently are: BioNtech/Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca, Johnson & > Johnson (also known as Janssen). More information on the duration of > vaccine certificate validity, and how it applies to various vaccine > combinations, is available on the Vienna convention bureau website. The list of EMA-approved vaccines is different than that of convention.at URL (e.g. Novavax present in EMA and absent from the other). Which one primes? Is it 2 or 3 or 4 dose? If in my country 10 days after infection are sufficient does it apply to the 180 days required by convention.at? Would convention.at accept a paper certificate written in other language? Would convention.at accept an _implicit_ proof of re-establishment which is equal to a positive test followed by a negative test 15 days later? That's how it works here. There are now more complex rules here to prove the re-establishment: shorter overall timespans but punctuated by more than just 2 tests. This just came out a few days ago. Does it apply in Austria? > Proof of Past Infection > > Alternatively, an official/medical certificate proving a past > infection (valid for 180 days after recovery) is accepted. I wonder whether this rule is serious. It sounds as if during these 180 days after re-establishment one might not contract and transmit covid again. This is not true: one can catch the virus and transmit any time. The 180 days might be true to mean that one's body will corectly fight the covid, yes, but meeting other people has other higher risk: that of transmitting the virus to somebody else. Finally, the convention.at rules will certainly change at the beginning of February. The Austria leadership committed for vaccination mandate in Austria. If it happens, the vaccination rules change. If not, then there are other big problems. For a traveller, vaccination is a matter that neeeds more planning than just the 6 weeks between beginning of February and mid March. It depends on the starting vax status at the beginning of Feb. But it needs 3 weeks between the first 2 doses, and then about 3 months to a 3rd dose, depending on a changing regulation. Then it might need 3 months to a 4th dose. And, there is a need to find a vaccination slot, whihc might not be available right away, depending on the wave status - at the beginning of each wave the vaccination slots were hardly available (needed several weeks) and then they were reqdily available w/o rdv, towards the end of the wave. If one is lucky, one might be right in the vaccination spot for March, or might not. I'll stop here... Alex > > Jason > > > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Mon Jan 17 05:57:43 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietf.org Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC5B3A14D8; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 05:57:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: shmoo-chairs@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.42.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= Message-ID: <164242785609.8739.2675727198716311265@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 05:57:36 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_cha?= =?utf-8?q?rter-ietf-shmoo-01-00=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 13:57:36 -0000 Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-shmoo/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for the work to draft this charter in very challenging times... with multiple inputs from the community, getting even a rough consensus is not easy on this topic... I like the change to "Stay Home Meet *Occasionally* Online" ;-) Unsure whether the word "hybrid" is used rightfully in 'mostly online, or “hybrid,” meetings'. Suggest to keep only "mostly online" (see also the use of "mostly-in-person" later in the text). About "manage community health"... so no more ice creams and cookies only fruits ? ;-) Suggest to reword with "sanitary conditions". Anyway, I wonder whether the IETF community has the capacity to author a BCP on this topic (would it create some liability ?) Still missing any milestone... From nobody Mon Jan 17 06:26:19 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 584113A079A for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 06:26:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fyg5_MSoPPqx for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 06:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 004373A0789 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 06:26:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HEQ9sI017473 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:26:09 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 99BB12082F6 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:26:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F749208309 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:26:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HEQ9Nt001100 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:26:09 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:26:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <164242785609.8739.2675727198716311265@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <164242785609.8739.2675727198716311265@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_cha?= =?utf-8?q?rter-ietf-shmoo-01-00=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 14:26:17 -0000 Le 17/01/2022 à 14:57, Éric Vyncke via Datatracker a écrit : > Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-shmoo/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thank you for the work to draft this charter in very challenging times... with > multiple inputs from the community, getting even a rough consensus is not easy > on this topic... > > I like the change to "Stay Home Meet *Occasionally* Online" ;-) > > Unsure whether the word "hybrid" is used rightfully in 'mostly online, or > “hybrid,” meetings'. Suggest to keep only "mostly online" (see also the use of > "mostly-in-person" later in the text). > > About "manage community health"... so no more ice creams and cookies only > fruits ? ;-) Suggest to reword with "sanitary conditions". Anyway, I wonder > whether the IETF community has the capacity to author a BCP on this topic > (would it create some liability ?) Liability is probably the reason as to why there are no "Local Letters of Invitation" https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/ ? A BCP would say that there are letters of invitation and that the invitation offers guarantees of no spread, and together they might help someone get a visa to get there. The creation of a BCP would need many other kinds of agreements between the participants of the creation of the document. For that to happen, there would need to be trust in the WG about the way to move forward. Alex > > Still missing any milestone... > > > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Mon Jan 17 06:28:38 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E143A07F3 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 06:28:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.67 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.67 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9KklVKJyuVp5 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 06:28:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2E983A07DE for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 06:28:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HESTvv019345 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:28:29 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id DB60B208322 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:28:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4503208326 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:28:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HESTbm002945 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:28:29 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------IC1plnW7rMRzkssiZx5EgCwo" Message-ID: <9af600f9-0c76-5145-6eb5-34fc065ce25f@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:28:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: "manycouches@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 14:28:37 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------IC1plnW7rMRzkssiZx5EgCwo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will there be mandatory daily PCR testing for the in-person component in Vienna? Will the data of the testing be available? (anonymized?) The ietf.org URL says below: https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/covid-related-requirements/ > > B. Daily PCR Testing > > For gatherings of over 500 persons, daily PCR testing is required of > all delegates. Free testing will be available onsite at the Hilton > Vienna Park (the 113 meeting venue). > --------------IC1plnW7rMRzkssiZx5EgCwo Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Will there be mandatory daily PCR testing for the in-person component in Vienna?

Will the data of the testing be available? (anonymized?)

The ietf.org URL says below:

https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/covid-related-requirements/

B. Daily PCR Testing

For gatherings of over 500 persons, daily PCR testing is required of all delegates. Free testing will be available onsite at the Hilton Vienna Park (the 113 meeting venue).


--------------IC1plnW7rMRzkssiZx5EgCwo-- From nobody Mon Jan 17 07:03:01 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45F33A0AE2 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 07:02:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gEcaAHmlpjxu for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 07:02:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6A883A0AE0 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 07:02:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HF2pXr029984 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:02:51 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 91EAF202B26 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:02:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8851220267D for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:02:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HF2pnO028143 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:02:51 +0100 Message-ID: <5caa4bc6-c1c8-3f21-62a7-f5f59576b489@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:02:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <51484cb0-136f-1001-f3f5-1bb11a6968bc@gih.com> <73CE3B1E-8489-4142-8B63-D3A15AEF97DB@gmail.com> <86975f34-b324-163c-26a5-9e331654dd12@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <86975f34-b324-163c-26a5-9e331654dd12@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:03:00 -0000 Le 24/12/2021 à 23:46, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : [...] > > 270days (9month) Austria expiration time of a dose is probably an old > info that would probably be modified soon.  It would be strange an EU > country thinks different than another, in this respect.  IT would be > strange that _any_ country to think differently, because we are all homo > sapiens, in whatever country.  But I should ask Austrians. I asked today two colleagues in Austria. They debate whether it is 9 months or 6 month, having recently changed. Hearing the discussion it seems the person saying 6 month is more right, it seems to me. After some research, I found the following current status: the number varies from 9 month to 6 weeks, from various people. A statistician agrees with me saying the number depends a lot on the person. A recent paper says the number depends on the vaccine model-name (pfizer comirnaty, jannsen etc.), on the variant of virus if met, and other variables. It goes as far as saying the immunity time grows for some combination of variables, whereas for others it wanes. Wondering about when to do the 4th dose? Israeli team in December, and the EMA on Jan. 11th, say more data is needed, and until then strategy might need to change: repeated boosting at so short time may lead to fatigue of 2 kinds (of personal immune system, and of population at large) and strategy should change after 4th dose (some strategies are proposed). A new to me term is also vehiculated, called 'immunity imprint'. This has to do with variants and vaccine kinds. Some are optimistic about that imprint, others are pessimistic. Do you know? How long can one wait after the 2nd dose (e.g. Pfizer) and then take the 3rd dose - 9 month or 6 months? Alex > > There are other infos that circulated recently from people with > reputation: it was said that 3rd dose would be last.  Is that still > true?  I will know that at latest in March. > > About the science of this.  I am not a medical person, but this is what > I he.ard  Immunity is a pair of two things: cell memory immunity, and > antibodies.  The first cant be measured and is not understood, but it > works when it works.  The second can be measured in a blood sample. > Both help one to fight the virus, it is an AND.  Whatever we know about > the second (the antibodies) can be nullified by the first: one can have > no antibodies and still kill viruses, we dont know why.  But if we have > many antibodies then we are sure to fight well.  The curve of antibody > depletion after dose is an asymptotical; it was measured - statistically > - among many people, and they came up with this 7 month number.  But in > an asymptotical there is certainly not just one number, but several (the > fall is not a dirac signal, nor a rectangular on-off signal).  Also, > that common curve is not my curve - it is a statistic mean of many > people, just like the weight of newborn babies: some cruise above > whereas others swim below.   I dont know mine precisely. > > Also, I am told by person I trust when we talk Comp. Sci. is that this > vaccine generates something that stays in the body for a long time, > hence he does not vaccinate, independently of 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7 month > spacing between doses.  Just hold on to it as much as possible: not > travel, not see anyone, mask all the time, etc. > > Alex > >> >> Sent using a machine that autocorrects in interesting ways... >> >>> On Dec 24, 2021, at 5:47 AM, Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond >>> wrote: >>> >>> There are probably also some procedural protocols that can also be >>> learnt from the recent IGF, but I'm afraid to have to say that the >>> Omicron variant is likely to change a lot of these parameters. >>> Colleagues in London are confirming first hand that the contagion >>> level is unprecedented. >> >> _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing >> list Manycouches@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Mon Jan 17 07:20:00 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 914B73A0E39 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 07:19:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BjeYP0fPb0yh for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 07:19:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx3.open-xchange.com (mx3.open-xchange.com [87.191.57.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11A423A0E41 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 07:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from imap.open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx3.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9EF456A0C7; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:19:48 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1642432788; bh=U2Ue+ZXgZiy+Z+5KHVH7Cvxp1+wEt2RAPezLyH7MeCo=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=+AIV33UO9E6l79TgmDEdShvno2czpcyV2Xv3Yt8YE81NCVl3KIv5ztd86XOM6+66t wckAdSYjwKQivx/8vhI4ZTR+2phvgoIlnOBh0GhODcIorae9NNR2CuRe5CJBrhKi0t MPRmX0FxdT3rluyxE0ULcfu5TPe43WmhsHk3PCzzC0mpaS6sbyPvuTZxOI/1JX5W5b 67GywgIEWBJHZmKx+i1XHBTB4RD0woFxOJzmCq+2T+8k8HkuMXqiz+IZ7MHJnJMo7Y 1iFPI5wvVXIVFFgXwijAND5grpyGwDfx7IAW/AkfsJq9ltb9+3ODacbdEoeBWYpcoN +0IQ7PmgiUmAw== Received: from appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com ([10.20.28.82]) by imap.open-xchange.com with ESMTPSA id l2G7JhSJ5WEXPwAA3c6Kzw (envelope-from ); Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:19:48 +0100 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:19:48 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Alexandre Petrescu , manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <1394805109.22557.1642432788585@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <5caa4bc6-c1c8-3f21-62a7-f5f59576b489@gmail.com> References: <51484cb0-136f-1001-f3f5-1bb11a6968bc@gih.com> <73CE3B1E-8489-4142-8B63-D3A15AEF97DB@gmail.com> <86975f34-b324-163c-26a5-9e331654dd12@gmail.com> <5caa4bc6-c1c8-3f21-62a7-f5f59576b489@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.6-Rev5 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] IETF 113 will be a hybrid onsite/online meeting in Vienna, Austria X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:19:56 -0000 > Il 17/01/2022 16:02 Alexandre Petrescu ha scritto: > > Do you know? How long can one wait after the 2nd dose (e.g. Pfizer) and > then take the 3rd dose - 9 month or 6 months? It depends on the context for the question. If you are talking in sanitary terms, as you were doing in your message, then there is no answer: the protection level will decline over time with a curve that strongly depends on you, so it is up to you individually to decide when you think that it has become so low, or the risk of contagion so high, that you'd better get the third dose. If you are talking in legal terms, you should follow the policies of your own country and later see if they allow you to meet the policies that will be valid in Austria in March, which may still change before then. Generally speaking, if you are interested in doing any travel outside of your home country in [1H]2022 for any reason, my advice to maximize your chances would be to get any shot your country is ready to give you, as soon as you can get it. (I got my third dose in Italy in mid December, five months after my second one. Now they give third doses after four months.) -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Mon Jan 17 07:25:50 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8ED3A0EB8 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 07:25:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2pxxpKfyjNHj for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 07:25:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com [148.163.141.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 378783A0EA4 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 07:25:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0184891.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with ESMTP id 20HF95SQ010633; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:25:40 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : mime-version; s=20190412; bh=XmCFE5INQqK3awcuTttHlMRta/iLzVvOXeCl6mw0hUs=; b=bnyffKbPjCb2lXw1e4GYdGn1U6fzPokGLHPDDgHtNpldjfuL8uQ4faPVx8kbpJCrOpsG 16DoSFm1/tHXJMyJoqzkj17lrcUwoF2wOw1c237XTTFwEU9U2zoxA1mqETztm9VLuF0h IJ6d+bbon9g5LQWnL9tvV4UiYFPVKucVQ6iwvh0wKYAS5B4LYQh6Vj4jrDPJkzbc6xki c4yoJZl71bkeSLIL2f6FAvtTbispUp+wDY+jCOsO537F6vgOCBzPq75zrLW09KcwJOWJ 5UDYGmGvR699V2xCRS4NcXwKzEx6Je2nb4XGLCe43AeTgmErMQLWQhXmsfY+PgevwNp6 Sw== Received: from pacdcexop05.cable.comcast.com (dlppfpt-wc-1p.slb.comcast.com [96.99.226.136]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3dnahw86yb-4 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:25:40 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXOP01.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.148) by PACDCEXOP05.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:25:19 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXEDGE01.cable.comcast.com (76.96.78.71) by PACDCEXOP01.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:25:19 -0500 Received: from NAM12-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.66.46) by webmail.comcast.com (76.96.78.71) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.26; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:25:18 -0500 Received: from BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:f7::21) by MN2PR11MB4429.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:18b::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4888.12; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:25:10 +0000 Received: from BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e089:516a:b348:af67]) by BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e089:516a:b348:af67%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4888.013; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:25:10 +0000 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Alexandre Petrescu , "manycouches@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Manycouches] Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? Thread-Index: AQHYC66KrNQTzcaBn0muYOHTcrFIEaxnAaUA Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:25:10 +0000 Message-ID: <381712AE-AEA1-42D1-BEA8-86B0553B3BC3@cable.comcast.com> References: <9af600f9-0c76-5145-6eb5-34fc065ce25f@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9af600f9-0c76-5145-6eb5-34fc065ce25f@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.57.22011101 x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 31318514-3f55-46b9-be62-08d9d9cd8cfb x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB4429:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(186003)(82960400001)(508600001)(6486002)(53546011)(6506007)(316002)(110136005)(2906002)(33656002)(5660300002)(91956017)(6512007)(166002)(83380400001)(38070700005)(76116006)(86362001)(66446008)(66476007)(66556008)(71200400001)(64756008)(122000001)(38100700002)(8676002)(966005)(66946007)(8936002)(2616005)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?utf-8?B?NGhMZmg2cEZnbVE0azZUK3BDaG5OTGNxa2lmbWFNMGVaMCtzMGY5WFVFUEZ6?= =?utf-8?B?d1EwdFIyMEgyajY3aXpTUkFteUFLQkZSeHNwZ3hoblI3dEJOakpGdkt1aXBs?= =?utf-8?B?T2lXSmQyN0lGZUtuVjNHZTBFWFJuTkE0KzltMlJ4bXFXMUpvTmpJdXhBeVJI?= =?utf-8?B?SEg2MFNCekUzTTFaNU1ZL1lIdlJ6RDVOVlBhb3pSWUMydFkyUzM3enVSRDhL?= =?utf-8?B?NG9ERkJoRzF3RXM4dkR5MmJ2b3F5aDJNVE1JN0VkT1JOTnZqNWZlYUUrNXpP?= =?utf-8?B?Z1B1Z3lDelJvTXcyeG44K3g4T2VxTjJrclV6MVBjTWIwTEpCbDBoejByUzZ5?= =?utf-8?B?NFBmYXlna3MyVUhnRWVvSkw4TmI2MDBFMzJJQmV3RU8wTXkzT1dmS3d4NjBs?= =?utf-8?B?SnRvRU5McXR2L3hLYmdKVmJXd2FVb21sQ2ZLYmtFQTE0ZWxBRDZSVThBM3ZY?= =?utf-8?B?NVFsVlZ3WFQwaUZoZ0NDNFp5em1VS3EzQWRjTFE1cVVHRCsxOHBvblJmeUNY?= =?utf-8?B?UER0WFNKWXU5ZExuaXI3NXlpR3NJeWdhd0NtaXNlSXI5Z2xsUkVkQWJ4YUpT?= =?utf-8?B?cWhQeldEYWJwSnByY2k0d002RW41aWJnZkp0aVE3NXBuaks3c2x5Ynhyb3ds?= =?utf-8?B?UWtJNUM2Y3NyZXl2bkZjbW5LdmxLVmdMSXpyMlNmWmNRcWpnYkZGd2oxdDdY?= =?utf-8?B?Z0NuZjlRbnd4U3BId2J6RGd2MmsrSGRNdytqV3FoZzRTUzNUcm9JK0Urb01y?= =?utf-8?B?MFRNQlcvVE1VN3BJa2FOb2E5TVgwanVZQmoxR0cycUMrRXpZUHZmVE10dWY4?= =?utf-8?B?VFBjdWhISXhXWXJIejBHcUd1dnpoRlJ6cUorYmNMUmhraERuZjkvSHNwM09N?= =?utf-8?B?d3UwMGhtZHB3eForYWlhTDhMMzhsNWVwTC90VWJjV2FTTVNJL3pLamZYSmJM?= =?utf-8?B?VFNoSFdDeEhSK0xDZGp4bWxVaFBaVXlXVk1kRFpwYzhHRDJselNXalVLWi9k?= =?utf-8?B?bzlwTGFYVTV1UkI5Q2IxSEJFclJXT0ZUeGRvQXJjK2grb3MxMlZTSTVmcmQ5?= =?utf-8?B?eDg5Yi9MYmlnNm41UWMyK3o4UVlxeXRBelZPMktCNElVMVpNZWxHU3VoYUdS?= =?utf-8?B?cGVmcnRzZDRzd2tRUG1kdTBpaXZDN1FBcWZjM1JPUGFnVytEN1B2WEN2b2wy?= =?utf-8?B?T3RUOEplT2xVRXNnbjRQRC9JWTdPeUF3WnZQcTR5YTJWYkY5c0hBd3Y1cldU?= =?utf-8?B?RDFtYVlsWXMxSnFyOG9JTk9XUmxGSTdDejdoa0xibVVuOGlnSWFiWE5Xakcy?= =?utf-8?B?YmpvU0VDbDNkVkJMN1cxWDc0YU15V1d0bVRoSU9ySTdqVmdHcGhpei94L3ZU?= =?utf-8?B?a2hIak9JR0pvQkdtWGdCY1IzU0hQL0laSmRBNkxHVUh0OUpVcnRSWGNhMkRR?= =?utf-8?B?UXZLOWhjUUt4RUZxVWU4QWttOEVzOWNLWTVUcE1ZNjBHYWcvNHdROEZRTC9K?= =?utf-8?B?YmJ6N0Y0eDFHdFJOU3BnL3RWK0JRSFREQTlTUnR3K2UzckxSQ09WSWxhVkIr?= =?utf-8?B?OGE4YmRzN2g3UDZ4QVdRM1dRVWlBRGRTK05adTBMdS9FVUowWmNPc202Vjdk?= =?utf-8?B?cG9tNmcrazN0cXpadktObkxIbnFXMWZUa2ZVMEZSVU90aDNwQ2x6bUI0d1hE?= =?utf-8?B?SFhsbGdxVzdjNGswa3F0ZE9vd3RoMTI0Wjl1SVdoVDRzcEpLeFNXR04vZlE3?= =?utf-8?B?cm1yRU90VXZjclNBb0JNdGJJQVNUVVUrVm1QV1hOdkwzMG5aTGJMclRqemZ0?= =?utf-8?B?cW1VT1NqRGNCVC9OclRQZVNtUno3QVFZMlpGNEZiNUgwMTVia0ZFL0RScTJ4?= =?utf-8?B?ZEFhQnl5bExxdjlmenRIYktMZUl3K2xIQkNhcmRuRlp4Y0Jmb0M5eDhuYVJl?= =?utf-8?B?ZHFXdkgzK2dGQUVZUVV3MlBsc3FsK1FuMUpnQnB5TkZhL0NRU1VDMFhJTW40?= =?utf-8?B?cjc0OUNjdlg5eGJYV1NpZ0xUbWswT0R0bVJHTnBJUS94T3pYN1k2cDVpdWJL?= =?utf-8?B?cTZHVXQ0b3JmV1hTenJ2S2VXSGx2N0NNLzNvUFZ0SmxWUUo1RFpncXFESE0v?= =?utf-8?B?cFd1U2tpbWxsZ1ZKTjVSMXp0QSt6VEdmaTVoZWU0bVRnNDJ2aHFqM0hqcVJT?= =?utf-8?B?RnZuUTg4VERIdkk4NkNUVjhXWDI2UkxSQkZZakJvS0RkWG03SDYyR3JZUStj?= =?utf-8?B?b2dUZVFLTS90UmpCZkQ0dW10c3d4a2luTE9UOUxndlVSWEV4Nkp5SVVwdzBH?= =?utf-8?B?WnpEbXRjQVI4MDJxV3c2ZXhqdW1yYVBjRHZMUjJIeDJndVBxQllHZz09?= arc-seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=g+PTCcAcjD+OgORTdTuN0Uta8RZ9Ax7ppe+RFmGNaUbj0t0Bv0ZO0W3HDXABwp0hOs5g1WcP6GoGt7MRdPxoqS4jXcQiRPVABoHgDTyqFTanBEQ9JoH6A4I+nP4irNElowvYweStQBJCLttUApGvlsvlweEwZJ76/XW59A3GiGapyEB9EVhQQ2F2o8ImmgQDF1an/Yg6EF5BVtdKZgL7uv1pHC0hxAu6t8ScDMVcAC9oEJaIGPdGrS0sGJ9Exoog59pPyeaBjeV5CfKlJhWfZfB3KYj6aTUKeJjJCkdcIm5Uy02iXZrqjJvOvuJ9ava5Av6brdkFwctNtX8O0xxL0g== arc-message-signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=+XogWXVdBGa/0WteSzTft82+rPvvPY8OuTWSg8sfkmc=; b=D1fVZxIwz6A9q3Vp05JRfAYy1cn4/8TFHG4qpA+mr9NKzrvHOPKFbHGfpnx4hz+nSc3cV9BJxCDzLVQUL61iv08+mDxv8PrfFunsnT11hMRna7sj5PwoCyHnhpIN/kvxPcgojcN7NZlbnex9wxt8g1WFpfrlOQVhkAJUheTtPkqY5BH3bBw3JL+9AfGY04P62zHThP19On/c29gWSmAjIxUpzbHMLeq49zmrIY9FT/zgZ7HfHoO84WNP9efRkIhL+m5xkD7sIw+D91xE+BxGqu9K/8SDjQoyfE9XbA2/DWc25NU+tJuOIeTHQxu1FhyD4IEGebwW14JEplzFIgnc3A== arc-authentication-results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cable.comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=cable.comcast.com; arc=none x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authas: Internal x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authsource: BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-network-message-id: 31318514-3f55-46b9-be62-08d9d9cd8cfb x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Jan 2022 15:25:10.5373 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: +oZVkcdq4B4V2I6g+uF4vU5rlcbf/R5wL+fLOy+C0Tb1dqbG+0XhwWsYpXzdMny6TrFvO/X2duBK7lnwU+I/v6a4sKOcgJsZRD2exVq0+tU= x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: MN2PR11MB4429 x-originatororg: cable.comcast.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_381712AEAEA142D1BEA886B0553B3BC3cablecomcastcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWQ X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 8ZFw3eTRK4fzUIlw8sd64PGhGoKbR-TM X-Proofpoint-GUID: 8ZFw3eTRK4fzUIlw8sd64PGhGoKbR-TM X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2022-01-17_07,2022-01-14_01,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:25:48 -0000 --_000_381712AEAEA142D1BEA886B0553B3BC3cablecomcastcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiBXaWxsIHRoZXJlIGJlIG1hbmRhdG9yeSBkYWlseSBQQ1IgdGVzdGluZyBmb3IgdGhlIGluLXBl cnNvbiBjb21wb25lbnQgaW4gVmllbm5hPw0KVGhlIG1lZXRpbmcgcmVnaXN0cmF0aW9uIHBhZ2Ug aXMgY29ycmVjdCBhcyB3cml0dGVuOg0KRm9yIGdhdGhlcmluZ3Mgb2Ygb3ZlciA1MDAgcGVyc29u cywgZGFpbHkgUENSIHRlc3RpbmcgaXMgcmVxdWlyZWQgb2YgYWxsIGRlbGVnYXRlcy4gRnJlZSB0 ZXN0aW5nIHdpbGwgYmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlIG9uc2l0ZSBhdCB0aGUgSGlsdG9uIFZpZW5uYSBQYXJr ICh0aGUgMTEzIG1lZXRpbmcgdmVudWUpLg0KDQoNCj4gV2lsbCB0aGUgZGF0YSBvZiB0aGUgdGVz dGluZyBiZSBhdmFpbGFibGU/IChhbm9ueW1pemVkPykNClRoZSBJRVRGIGRvZXMgbm90IGNvbmR1 Y3QgdGhlc2UgdGVzdHMgYW5kIEkgZG8gbm90IGtub3cgd2hhdCB0aGUgbG9jYWwgaGVhbHRoIGFk bWluaXN0cmF0aW9uIHdpbGwgY2hvb3NlIHRvIGRvIHdpdGggdGhlIHJlc3VsdGluZyBkYXRhLiBJ IHdvdWxkIGltYWdpbmUgbGlrZSBtYW55IGNpdGllcywgdGhleSByZXBvcnQgb24gZGFpbHkgdGVz dCBzdGF0aXN0aWNzIGJ1dCBub3QgaW4gYSB3YXkgdGhhdCBpcyBpZGVudGlmaWFibGUgdG8gbG9j YXRpb25zLCBldmVudHMsIG9yIGluZGl2aWR1YWxzLg0KDQpGcm9tOiBNYW55Y291Y2hlcyA8bWFu eWNvdWNoZXMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZz4gb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIEFsZXhhbmRyZSBQZXRyZXNj dSA8YWxleGFuZHJlLnBldHJlc2N1QGdtYWlsLmNvbT4NCkRhdGU6IE1vbmRheSwgSmFudWFyeSAx NywgMjAyMiBhdCAwOToyOA0KVG86ICJtYW55Y291Y2hlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyIgPG1hbnljb3VjaGVz QGlldGYub3JnPg0KU3ViamVjdDogW01hbnljb3VjaGVzXSBWaWVubmEgLSBkYWlseSBQQ1IgdGVz dGluZywgb3Igbm8/DQoNCg0KV2lsbCB0aGVyZSBiZSBtYW5kYXRvcnkgZGFpbHkgUENSIHRlc3Rp bmcgZm9yIHRoZSBpbi1wZXJzb24gY29tcG9uZW50IGluIFZpZW5uYT8NCg0KV2lsbCB0aGUgZGF0 YSBvZiB0aGUgdGVzdGluZyBiZSBhdmFpbGFibGU/IChhbm9ueW1pemVkPykNCg0KVGhlIGlldGYu b3JnIFVSTCBzYXlzIGJlbG93Og0KDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9ob3cvbWVldGluZ3Mv MTEzL2NvdmlkLXJlbGF0ZWQtcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzLzxodHRwczovL3VybGRlZmVuc2UuY29tL3Yz L19faHR0cHM6L3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9ob3cvbWVldGluZ3MvMTEzL2NvdmlkLXJlbGF0ZWQtcmVx dWlyZW1lbnRzL19fOyEhQ1FsM21jSFgyQSFXQnpFUld5WS1lcjN4T2p2eTZHOU43MmdrYmZWT2w0 dDJfamlzN3d6ZndJNzNvaXphQlNaOFdSZE9uRTVtS0xNYnN6clNnJD4NCg0KQi4gRGFpbHkgUENS IFRlc3RpbmcNCg0KRm9yIGdhdGhlcmluZ3Mgb2Ygb3ZlciA1MDAgcGVyc29ucywgZGFpbHkgUENS IHRlc3RpbmcgaXMgcmVxdWlyZWQgb2YgYWxsIGRlbGVnYXRlcy4gRnJlZSB0ZXN0aW5nIHdpbGwg YmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlIG9uc2l0ZSBhdCB0aGUgSGlsdG9uIFZpZW5uYSBQYXJrICh0aGUgMTEzIG1l ZXRpbmcgdmVudWUpLg0KDQo= --_000_381712AEAEA142D1BEA886B0553B3BC3cablecomcastcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <7A9E7D0775EB1D4C9D6B1EEF03825D23@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6bz0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6b2ZmaWNlIiB4 bWxuczp3PSJ1cm46c2NoZW1hcy1taWNyb3NvZnQtY29tOm9mZmljZTp3b3JkIiB4bWxuczptPSJo dHRwOi8vc2NoZW1hcy5taWNyb3NvZnQuY29tL29mZmljZS8yMDA0LzEyL29tbWwiIHhtbG5zPSJo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9UUi9SRUMtaHRtbDQwIj4NCjxoZWFkPg0KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVp dj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9dXRmLTgiPg0KPG1l dGEgbmFtZT0iR2VuZXJhdG9yIiBjb250ZW50PSJNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCAxNSAoZmlsdGVyZWQg bWVkaXVtKSI+DQo8c3R5bGU+PCEtLQ0KLyogRm9udCBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KQGZvbnQtZmFj ZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FtYnJpYSBNYXRoIjsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDQgNSAzIDUgNCA2 IDMgMiA0O30NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToy IDE1IDUgMiAyIDIgNCAzIDIgNDt9DQpAZm9udC1mYWNlDQoJe2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJUaW1lcyBO ZXcgUm9tYW4gXChCb2R5IENTXCkiOw0KCXBhbm9zZS0xOjIgMTEgNiA0IDIgMiAyIDIgMiA0O30N CkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6TW9udHNlcnJhdDsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDExIDYg NCAyIDIgMiAyIDIgNDt9DQovKiBTdHlsZSBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KcC5Nc29Ob3JtYWwsIGxp Lk1zb05vcm1hbCwgZGl2Lk1zb05vcm1hbA0KCXttYXJnaW46MGluOw0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4w cHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0KaDQNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxl LXByaW9yaXR5Ojk7DQoJbXNvLXN0eWxlLWxpbms6IkhlYWRpbmcgNCBDaGFyIjsNCgltc28tbWFy Z2luLXRvcC1hbHQ6YXV0bzsNCgltYXJnaW4tcmlnaHQ6MGluOw0KCW1zby1tYXJnaW4tYm90dG9t LWFsdDphdXRvOw0KCW1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0OjBpbjsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQt ZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJpIixzYW5zLXNlcmlmOw0KCWZvbnQtd2VpZ2h0OmJvbGQ7fQ0KYTpsaW5r LCBzcGFuLk1zb0h5cGVybGluaw0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtcHJpb3JpdHk6OTk7DQoJY29sb3I6Ymx1 ZTsNCgl0ZXh0LWRlY29yYXRpb246dW5kZXJsaW5lO30NCnNwYW4uSGVhZGluZzRDaGFyDQoJe21z by1zdHlsZS1uYW1lOiJIZWFkaW5nIDQgQ2hhciI7DQoJbXNvLXN0eWxlLXByaW9yaXR5Ojk7DQoJ bXNvLXN0eWxlLWxpbms6IkhlYWRpbmcgNCI7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkgTGlnaHQi LHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7DQoJY29sb3I6IzJGNTQ5NjsNCglmb250LXN0eWxlOml0YWxpYzt9DQpzcGFu LkVtYWlsU3R5bGUyMA0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtdHlwZTpwZXJzb25hbC1yZXBseTsNCglmb250LWZh bWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsNCgljb2xvcjp3aW5kb3d0ZXh0O30NCi5Nc29DaHBE ZWZhdWx0DQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS10eXBlOmV4cG9ydC1vbmx5Ow0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMC4wcHQ7 fQ0KQHBhZ2UgV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3NpemU6OC41aW4gMTEuMGluOw0KCW1hcmdpbjoxLjBp biAxLjBpbiAxLjBpbiAxLjBpbjt9DQpkaXYuV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3BhZ2U6V29yZFNlY3Rp b24xO30NCi0tPjwvc3R5bGU+DQo8L2hlYWQ+DQo8Ym9keSBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyIgbGluaz0iYmx1 ZSIgdmxpbms9InB1cnBsZSIgc3R5bGU9IndvcmQtd3JhcDpicmVhay13b3JkIj4NCjxkaXYgY2xh c3M9IldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMSI+DQo8cD48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjE0LjBwdCI+Jmd0 OyA8L3NwYW4+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMC4wcHQ7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6JnF1b3Q7 Q291cmllciBOZXcmcXVvdDsiPldpbGwgdGhlcmUgYmUgbWFuZGF0b3J5IGRhaWx5IFBDUiB0ZXN0 aW5nIGZvciB0aGUgaW4tcGVyc29uIGNvbXBvbmVudCBpbiBWaWVubmE/PC9zcGFuPjxvOnA+PC9v OnA+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxNC4w cHQiPlRoZSBtZWV0aW5nIHJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbiBwYWdlIGlzIGNvcnJlY3QgYXMgd3JpdHRlbjo8 bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0i Zm9udC1zaXplOjEyLjBwdDtmb250LWZhbWlseTpNb250c2VycmF0O2NvbG9yOiMzMzM3NDE7YmFj a2dyb3VuZDojRjNGNUY2Ij5Gb3IgZ2F0aGVyaW5ncyBvZiBvdmVyIDUwMCBwZXJzb25zLCBkYWls eSBQQ1IgdGVzdGluZyBpcyByZXF1aXJlZCBvZiBhbGwgZGVsZWdhdGVzLiBGcmVlIHRlc3Rpbmcg d2lsbCBiZSBhdmFpbGFibGUgb25zaXRlIGF0IHRoZSBIaWx0b24gVmllbm5hIFBhcmsgKHRoZQ0K IDExMyBtZWV0aW5nIHZlbnVlKS48L3NwYW4+PG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNv Tm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjE0LjBwdCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48 L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHA+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxNC4wcHQiPiZndDsgPC9zcGFu PjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTAuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiZxdW90O0NvdXJpZXIg TmV3JnF1b3Q7Ij5XaWxsIHRoZSBkYXRhIG9mIHRoZSB0ZXN0aW5nIGJlIGF2YWlsYWJsZT8gKGFu b255bWl6ZWQ/KTwvc3Bhbj48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxz cGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTQuMHB0Ij5UaGUgSUVURiBkb2VzIG5vdCBjb25kdWN0IHRo ZXNlIHRlc3RzIGFuZCBJIGRvIG5vdCBrbm93IHdoYXQgdGhlIGxvY2FsIGhlYWx0aCBhZG1pbmlz dHJhdGlvbiB3aWxsIGNob29zZSB0byBkbyB3aXRoIHRoZSByZXN1bHRpbmcgZGF0YS4gSSB3b3Vs ZCBpbWFnaW5lIGxpa2UgbWFueSBjaXRpZXMsIHRoZXkgcmVwb3J0IG9uIGRhaWx5IHRlc3Qgc3Rh dGlzdGljcw0KIGJ1dCBub3QgaW4gYSB3YXkgdGhhdCBpcyBpZGVudGlmaWFibGUgdG8gbG9jYXRp b25zLCBldmVudHMsIG9yIGluZGl2aWR1YWxzLiA8bzpwPg0KPC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxw IGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTQuMHB0Ij48bzpwPiZu YnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8ZGl2IHN0eWxlPSJib3JkZXI6bm9uZTtib3JkZXItdG9w OnNvbGlkICNCNUM0REYgMS4wcHQ7cGFkZGluZzozLjBwdCAwaW4gMGluIDBpbiI+DQo8cCBjbGFz cz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48Yj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjEyLjBwdDtjb2xvcjpibGFj ayI+RnJvbTogPC9zcGFuPjwvYj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjEyLjBwdDtjb2xvcjpi bGFjayI+TWFueWNvdWNoZXMgJmx0O21hbnljb3VjaGVzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcmZ3Q7IG9u IGJlaGFsZiBvZiBBbGV4YW5kcmUgUGV0cmVzY3UgJmx0O2FsZXhhbmRyZS5wZXRyZXNjdUBnbWFp bC5jb20mZ3Q7PGJyPg0KPGI+RGF0ZTogPC9iPk1vbmRheSwgSmFudWFyeSAxNywgMjAyMiBhdCAw OToyODxicj4NCjxiPlRvOiA8L2I+JnF1b3Q7bWFueWNvdWNoZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcmcXVvdDsgJmx0 O21hbnljb3VjaGVzQGlldGYub3JnJmd0Ozxicj4NCjxiPlN1YmplY3Q6IDwvYj5bTWFueWNvdWNo ZXNdIFZpZW5uYSAtIGRhaWx5IFBDUiB0ZXN0aW5nLCBvciBubz88bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48 L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpw PjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPHA+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMC4wcHQ7Zm9udC1mYW1p bHk6JnF1b3Q7Q291cmllciBOZXcmcXVvdDsiPldpbGwgdGhlcmUgYmUgbWFuZGF0b3J5IGRhaWx5 IFBDUiB0ZXN0aW5nIGZvciB0aGUgaW4tcGVyc29uIGNvbXBvbmVudCBpbiBWaWVubmE/PC9zcGFu PjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHA+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMC4wcHQ7Zm9udC1m YW1pbHk6JnF1b3Q7Q291cmllciBOZXcmcXVvdDsiPldpbGwgdGhlIGRhdGEgb2YgdGhlIHRlc3Rp bmcgYmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlPyAoYW5vbnltaXplZD8pPC9zcGFuPjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPHA+ PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMC4wcHQ7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6JnF1b3Q7Q291cmllciBO ZXcmcXVvdDsiPlRoZSBpZXRmLm9yZyBVUkwgc2F5cyBiZWxvdzo8L3NwYW4+PG86cD48L286cD48 L3A+DQo8cD48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjEwLjBwdDtmb250LWZhbWlseTomcXVvdDtD b3VyaWVyIE5ldyZxdW90OyI+PGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cHM6Ly91cmxkZWZlbnNlLmNvbS92My9fX2h0 dHBzOi93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaG93L21lZXRpbmdzLzExMy9jb3ZpZC1yZWxhdGVkLXJlcXVpcmVt ZW50cy9fXzshIUNRbDNtY0hYMkEhV0J6RVJXeVktZXIzeE9qdnk2RzlONzJna2JmVk9sNHQyX2pp czd3emZ3STczb2l6YUJTWjhXUmRPbkU1bUtMTWJzenJTZyQiPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L2hvdy9tZWV0aW5ncy8xMTMvY292aWQtcmVsYXRlZC1yZXF1aXJlbWVudHMvPC9hPjwvc3Bhbj48 bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxibG9ja3F1b3RlIHN0eWxlPSJtYXJnaW4tdG9wOjUuMHB0O21hcmdp bi1ib3R0b206NS4wcHQiPg0KPGg0PkIuIERhaWx5IFBDUiBUZXN0aW5nPG86cD48L286cD48L2g0 Pg0KPHA+Rm9yIGdhdGhlcmluZ3Mgb2Ygb3ZlciA1MDAgcGVyc29ucywgZGFpbHkgUENSIHRlc3Rp bmcgaXMgcmVxdWlyZWQgb2YgYWxsIGRlbGVnYXRlcy4gRnJlZSB0ZXN0aW5nIHdpbGwgYmUgYXZh aWxhYmxlIG9uc2l0ZSBhdCB0aGUgSGlsdG9uIFZpZW5uYSBQYXJrICh0aGUgMTEzIG1lZXRpbmcg dmVudWUpLjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1h bCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_381712AEAEA142D1BEA886B0553B3BC3cablecomcastcom_-- From nobody Mon Jan 17 07:51:40 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 738BF3A1166 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 07:51:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ddg-9TlWRyJc for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 07:51:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62D803A1161 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 07:51:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HFpS37014071; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:51:28 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 3D21B208420; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:51:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FA2C20840C; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:51:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HFpS08029033; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:51:28 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:51:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: "Livingood, Jason" , "manycouches@ietf.org" References: <9af600f9-0c76-5145-6eb5-34fc065ce25f@gmail.com> <381712AE-AEA1-42D1-BEA8-86B0553B3BC3@cable.comcast.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <381712AE-AEA1-42D1-BEA8-86B0553B3BC3@cable.comcast.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 15:51:39 -0000 Le 17/01/2022 à 16:25, Livingood, Jason a écrit : >> Will there be mandatory daily PCR testing for the in-person component in > Vienna? > > The meeting registration page is correct as written: > > For gatherings of over 500 persons, daily PCR testing is required of all > delegates. Free testing will be available onsite at the Hilton Vienna > Park (the 113 meeting venue). In case there are 500 attendees - will there be mandatory testing? 'over 500' means 'equal to or greater than 500', or it means 'strictly greater than 500'? Alex > >> Will the data of the testing be available? (anonymized?) > > The IETF does not conduct these tests and I do not know what the local > health administration will choose to do with the resulting data. I would > imagine like many cities, they report on daily test statistics but not > in a way that is identifiable to locations, events, or individuals. > > *From: *Manycouches on behalf of > Alexandre Petrescu > *Date: *Monday, January 17, 2022 at 09:28 > *To: *"manycouches@ietf.org" > *Subject: *[Manycouches] Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? > > Will there be mandatory daily PCR testing for the in-person component in > Vienna? > > Will the data of the testing be available? (anonymized?) > > The ietf.org URL says below: > > https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/covid-related-requirements/ > > > > B. Daily PCR Testing > > For gatherings of over 500 persons, daily PCR testing is required of > all delegates. Free testing will be available onsite at the Hilton > Vienna Park (the 113 meeting venue). > From nobody Mon Jan 17 08:04:16 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 950B33A1227 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:04:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5P3jMYjgBRNg for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:04:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E2713A121F for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:04:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HG445P018409; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:04:04 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id C6FAD208443; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:04:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9AE220834F; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:04:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HG44vs003953; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:04:04 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:04:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: "Livingood, Jason" , "manycouches@ietf.org" References: <9af600f9-0c76-5145-6eb5-34fc065ce25f@gmail.com> <381712AE-AEA1-42D1-BEA8-86B0553B3BC3@cable.comcast.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <381712AE-AEA1-42D1-BEA8-86B0553B3BC3@cable.comcast.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:04:15 -0000 Le 17/01/2022 à 16:25, Livingood, Jason a écrit : >> Will there be mandatory daily PCR testing for the in-person >> component in > Vienna? > > The meeting registration page is correct as written: > > For gatherings of over 500 persons, daily PCR testing is required of > all delegates. Free testing will be available onsite at the Hilton > Vienna Park (the 113 meeting venue). > >> Will the data of the testing be available? (anonymized?) > > The IETF does not conduct these tests and I do not know what the > local health administration will choose to do with the resulting > data. It sounds reasonable. > I would imagine like many cities, they report on daily test > statistics but not in a way that is identifiable to locations, > events, or individuals. But in that way we will not be capable to say whether or not the IETF in-person component has helped or has not helped spread the virus. We will not be capable, after the meeting, to tell whether or not it was a good idea, a good process with respect to covid. If we had daily testing and the results of tests then we would say yes or no, it worked. Alex > > *From: *Manycouches on behalf of > Alexandre Petrescu *Date: *Monday, > January 17, 2022 at 09:28 *To: *"manycouches@ietf.org" > *Subject: *[Manycouches] Vienna - daily PCR > testing, or no? > > Will there be mandatory daily PCR testing for the in-person > component in Vienna? > > Will the data of the testing be available? (anonymized?) > > The ietf.org URL says below: > > https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/covid-related-requirements/ > > > > > > B. Daily PCR Testing > > For gatherings of over 500 persons, daily PCR testing is required of > all delegates. Free testing will be available onsite at the Hilton > Vienna Park (the 113 meeting venue). > From nobody Mon Jan 17 08:19:28 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98BF53A12D4 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:19:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cqM3Kylx8pxD for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:19:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com [148.163.141.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E5803A12D2 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:19:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0156896.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with ESMTP id 20HDLjxn030088; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:19:20 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=20190412; bh=MzspxEb/mYsry/oIvi0yOClSoCoFeCc9RDPTjQ3/vwg=; b=5FyLhZ1uKHss3ComUzTk69R4kq98Ud9gBqqJb6InxeGvs29jY3tP20khdfFmxRPTZvme p736yqtjojBhZ/UuzeMVWB+X1VG129zu8KUj5PNAOCDwIsQhOW5+JHFXfa3lIeFFcO7h MbW69fkZFwDKu67OyNkLt/ESZVN1wakblKE2a5RhAK4rdve2gJjBJGS7u2UqeIpIT/+K N3ZaIuqZGa+hKKjt3rSlchj2w5hgboZYKWXORcSD5ZpBCxGVnLgo22NkSAdUsnqSI3xH sg/mVBKwZuQDb3bXrzTq1oT8Id3tTgrd/Pg7iGQCc42BdRyAd7iZu2WKAklydgLxpoqa Uw== Received: from pacdcexop04.cable.comcast.com (dlppfpt-wc-1p.slb.comcast.com [96.99.226.136]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3dn6s71r87-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:19:20 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXOP01.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.148) by PACDCEXOP04.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:19:18 -0500 Received: from pacdcexedge02.cable.comcast.com (68.87.38.198) by PACDCEXOP01.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:19:18 -0500 Received: from NAM10-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.58.102) by webmail.comcast.com (68.87.38.198) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:19:16 -0500 Received: from BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:f7::21) by SJ0PR11MB5920.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:42e::9) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4888.13; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:19:14 +0000 Received: from BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e089:516a:b348:af67]) by BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e089:516a:b348:af67%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4888.013; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:19:14 +0000 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Alexandre Petrescu , "manycouches@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Manycouches] Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? Thread-Index: AQHYC66KrNQTzcaBn0muYOHTcrFIEaxnAaUAgABbLID//7PugA== Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:19:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9af600f9-0c76-5145-6eb5-34fc065ce25f@gmail.com> <381712AE-AEA1-42D1-BEA8-86B0553B3BC3@cable.comcast.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.57.22011101 x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 53c94c53-7ba8-42f6-eeef-08d9d9d51a35 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR11MB5920:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(84050400002)(316002)(110136005)(6486002)(66556008)(64756008)(66446008)(66476007)(2906002)(82960400001)(186003)(6512007)(66946007)(71200400001)(6506007)(508600001)(8676002)(4744005)(8936002)(5660300002)(38070700005)(122000001)(38100700002)(86362001)(2616005)(91956017)(76116006)(33656002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?utf-8?B?Qm0xS2pzYUtmL0ZwcEV2ZXJ3ekhyU2N6MDBiZTNMaU1UUEhnUlVqc1czR3dH?= =?utf-8?B?ZVlJeUJOQzVmK09ybmFTMEs4NVRWbGZmSkt6Ykk3bnVUbUFKU0h2UDBzTUtw?= =?utf-8?B?aytkUVBWUG1KK2ZyUWREdjFUN3RubVFqcmUxRkc3NkNTY1hFd2x5L1JEQmpm?= =?utf-8?B?dFdRbkM3ZkRhK2NkUFhnczlvaUVXRG0vV0poVGF2QXVITEcwa09nejVkS20y?= =?utf-8?B?ZXI4V25sRzFoRTliaElPVWY2ZmFudDFFMmNLZlhxbmxWVUJVTUNGdE1Ya09H?= =?utf-8?B?NytsdFRqc3g5cTh1aXBnQnpMQkJoYitwMHFicDdxcUZvZVlhUERyRUIxeFM0?= =?utf-8?B?Qk0vZlptNEd6WjQvc0cwSm5XMjIyS2VqNE5wcG1od3JNL1JXc3oxU3hGZE50?= =?utf-8?B?VjA4d25ZR2l4c3NkczlydGdNU1JraXl6MmVUbU55WDc5VW9LT0dQU1BONGhH?= =?utf-8?B?UzUxWmhlWXZDYlRUaDlmdS9EVkdPRzhFRURkRnZqbU96MDJEVHNRMjlNODRV?= =?utf-8?B?ektERWdpOGUrdHB5ZnR4Uk9XcXdTaUJoMHNCcFU4TmoxOUdvWkphV2tnVUZo?= =?utf-8?B?a3htY3hwNURNYVdGOXo1YVk4dzFGU0JOMXdERW00eVVLWE5uekQ5OU04OXZQ?= =?utf-8?B?cTB0S0d1Q3B0YTFwRzZPWjNkSGp1YXZEK1M3MEkzcHdZMWVkOWFpMkdVa3pJ?= =?utf-8?B?eWVkZHpRdWdGcnBMT1J5V1ZERkFBWm0xZnR6dUZwb1VUOGh5eGNia013RjJy?= =?utf-8?B?T1J3M21CTDQvWXpEU1V1dklCSC9Ed2o3MG11NjUxVzRFQTBOODRRYjhVVlIr?= =?utf-8?B?UCs2MDdpOW4yOWJ5M01WTnZwNlNPZDhnb3hTTlZvSFRiMm1Vc3IyV1BmVTAz?= =?utf-8?B?b2RYK0tCcm9pTGg2Sy80QUl3aUJ2Q2pxdWpPdy83SVhDMDBnVmUyQzFVNXE4?= =?utf-8?B?MzN6ZDJCTjUzaGdoNEJqb3RrUnh0a0NPV1VnalRrRVo3dW9CTE8yUVgvWUJQ?= =?utf-8?B?dmpJcTJKNnE2M3JiQmJuSE9uWmtXNU9oUzgyb3N4aXR5RDJYM0EvWm5lVW8x?= =?utf-8?B?Mi9tNy94bEhXTXNNUDE2MjNCU1pGRkEyMElpYjI1MG1UWnZZTFVWUTdibzZE?= =?utf-8?B?eEErTnJjMnZJUXhUdVZzQWFZaG1ORkdveWMycW8zSDVMV2F4a0ZMSnpZd0tB?= =?utf-8?B?L3NGTHlNT0NHTHdmeHpPaGk4cUF6V3oxeU9QQ0FJREhQR0lRT3NRMUNDMVR1?= =?utf-8?B?bmdVSHFNcjRrdURhZWdZWkxKUjhVMXZmeEpQSk12RFkwYkpndjVCVXpoMDRD?= =?utf-8?B?dEJMZlhNa0ZVYzlQSHRjRDVlcVpKOXhyNFNYcWFVbWV1UEhoZjBjUkU1aEJq?= =?utf-8?B?amZxWXlVZjVKMzdIcGFYWFJHUUp0b3B5YVZpT1NjaGw2eEphUzNUMTQ3Nngw?= =?utf-8?B?b3RlQ3dzRnhINWl3azJHbTV6Z3A0b1Q2dFQ2QVRNNUNISHE4bVJGbHlsa0Yw?= =?utf-8?B?UUtKbEdEbkZRbjdUbGtBUmdTZEdUWVFNSFFxMkdLS21EbVIwK05VK3FvUjNQ?= =?utf-8?B?VUdQYkpnQVI0dzVxU3VCKyswellPaGFhTTZzaDBpbU4vNWhnSmVvZTAwRC93?= =?utf-8?B?b3RoR2ZFRlhFL2NkdU5xcmc3ekw5eTRMVE01T0s3V1BKYkxSa1Iwc1NXTW4y?= =?utf-8?B?ZGFrWFl2Zk1DQnI5T2psaXJkbUoyK2FBNkRyWG15UGZNbWRWSkR5amVpZE90?= =?utf-8?B?WXFNQzRWNGJsQmJQdFl4YlR1ZDlQM1U3TmlXbGFCeXNrU25RYWo3WStEZ2lj?= =?utf-8?B?aG5YZ000Nkt1OEtVd1ZqOHRhbmFHN0I2UUtWWWNsTy9JWFdHN3hiekpFRnpn?= =?utf-8?B?UFZnbFNROWZPUDV5WlhFS2Y1a0V0aEFtVkgvbEZKNXFWNDcyZjhYazFTNGds?= =?utf-8?B?RFJYZVhtaWp6L1dMN0hwellHS3d3Y2FPL0FLcFNLMStrSElsL2t3ZEFlTGFz?= =?utf-8?B?V2JVZ0Y5U3pzeXV6YVduWnRFUzVwRll1QWlpY0RSbUNJVm9ETHEyU01nb3Z2?= =?utf-8?B?UkxORlBlZWlWZk9rYU1RblZBbEJYQ3hWdmhPZ1Z6ZERGampuU3hMNDhjRTZm?= =?utf-8?B?c3M3Qy9maXVqWlN3dDhoMWlkUTZxdEdWVStHbE5YZjlMN0pQWDlsMnlmNmlT?= =?utf-8?B?dmJ1L0ZVbzlaeEN4dGhWc2pCOVQzMUdFaWlLdmtKMmd2QjlVME40V01nZitS?= =?utf-8?B?S1BZTUFQaFVaNk4wZnM2UGtmY0lCc3hhVndVbkhLQUNvc3BUVVFKMTdueUlK?= =?utf-8?B?QTJsNURTMko2YmlNRHJ3UTg5T2h1eHhmZDBnYm4ydHQ1UXpxZDhaUT09?= arc-seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=M8NIHXB7Y0unUCNROLpetJpqgei9aPttEXS6M8yypnm94LcLumXmmEWAAHmhN6X0GlSi8ddkrEoY2oZTq2xyly2LoBsPFrnVB8iXpwOfAx9PDaL2w/U+4K9rZF0wehs9CdqmQRn9a2/jj8w0SCNMu3mDUDKz1+2T5ZTk3nKpXR4Gn10f3hFvcRNRWULBK8HMjMNnoiUzPijQV7VIo1VmWIH48MnuhxtrCtRMJJmjSJ65kpB5Xqmr+M0YijA4XCpa1hXvDnXra/54ywnO+CvRQoo/2aih2SpdchlO0Ls1wCt5yrwpoia+HiML7b7ilbjev6OkRvff8zOUDPdvhcQFgQ== arc-message-signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=8EwnaJWQK3BFMma6+Wz7cxJh5evtdKdTpvJ3BpPru4c=; b=DNwTFlayjRk9c+Lje1rdbi1WBbTcwe8q76NvqBPl50Qlj1BJdJlvEKWziiDN1biLX3Tt2//e9nCIqG2yW2Y91yloe8YP+oPsQ8QRgEbo+j5GdrmZdunRTeAJktk5+So017t7Cewv774JTvqKS5IQ+jnccQseq8PaLVUo/RNke4gVrb4Iq62xQUMdjy6u4VZ5XjEGbjf0jtZ2iAUCdSmE/6ep585o9qmTw29ro22qA4rSgXSBxoC2T3pSEgbXkJbuRPFvYh/6lL6Rw+PrVHD/5rVDtvujFK19cSiSt3igWqjrNfzyNJHkDP63oL+gdor8MavOCY2dSxh5bko9Y6XTfA== arc-authentication-results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cable.comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=cable.comcast.com; arc=none x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authas: Internal x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authsource: BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-network-message-id: 53c94c53-7ba8-42f6-eeef-08d9d9d51a35 x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Jan 2022 16:19:13.9233 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: 4KuEU6K981oumD8GUSElms/Cpp6qGyowEwaZz45PpzNHE0iGQsGirJnRbbLaigLKec60/D9QNaXJsmHvpopQwei2LNo/YLnjNFTw8an2Eh0= x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: SJ0PR11MB5920 x-originatororg: cable.comcast.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <18F039C96442C04593CC4BE6BAA14FEB@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWS X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: v2gkBmFI0FEd_xHNll80RKzp9lwRVwMb X-Proofpoint-GUID: v2gkBmFI0FEd_xHNll80RKzp9lwRVwMb X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2022-01-17_07,2022-01-14_01,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] [EXTERNAL] Re: Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:19:27 -0000 PiB3aWxsIHRoZXJlIGJlIG1hbmRhdG9yeSB0ZXN0aW5nPw0KDQpZZXMsIGFzIHRoZSB3ZWIgcGFn ZSBmb3IgMTEzIG5vdGVzLCB0aGVyZSB3aWxsIGJlIG1hbmRhdG9yeSB0ZXN0aW5nLiBJdCB3aWxs IGJlIHByb3ZpZGVkIG9uLXNpdGUgYXQgdGhlIHZlbnVlIGZvciBmcmVlLioNCg0KSkwNCg0KKiBJ dCBpcyBJTU8gbm90IHRlcnJpYmx5IHJlbGV2YW50IHRvIGRpc2N1c3MgdW5rbm93biBhdHRlbmRl ZSBudW1iZXJzLiBUaGUga2V5IGlzIHRlc3RpbmcgaXMgcmVxdWlyZWQgYXQgdGhpcyB0aW1lIGFu ZCBpdCB3aWxsIGJlIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBvbiBzaXRlIGFuZCBhdCBubyBjb3N0LiBSdWxlcyBtYXkg YWxzbyBjaGFuZ2UgLSB0aGUgd2ViIHBhZ2Ugd2lsbCBiZSBrZXB0IHVwIHRvIGRhdGUuDQoNCg0K From nobody Mon Jan 17 08:22:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 838AA3A12E9 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:22:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nx8bHqKpuhQo for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:22:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com [148.163.141.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CBB73A12EA for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0156895.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with ESMTP id 20HFRxlf030733; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:22:37 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=20190412; bh=/hqOIlFAoq/xM1DsXap4mV5bxyR+oIhKAbdgRE+0Zpc=; b=K0k6Qj+JHu3wHzwo9hGMwz5dVWE5M66J/Q/7dRgJG+WuJVzTv6ShjWHWsRZP5qC/aEYW DI49iWQF+jn6OZsZQg9Z/2ydga1fAC+DWpvPNvlBDPST+D83s0yxWGzdcfDdxMjjU3WG Q43GdJoewRmIlXUy88Q7EfE1+4QmosOlxF/PJLrcSDjB4/0vAk9ghzrEtBy/RKiu0Un0 KnAHWo7eE+w5dnVpN17XPd3K/GNAqag1YLKw1ZuT0JbK9iVyKjJIHLchqwOcimNK2ieT bUpOBlhdyr1nvt1z4yCcLIuaFR521Xaa6YodzIk+qJyRr5PLZid2BnZFnacXT0u3z2tj xA== Received: from copdcexc37.cable.comcast.com (dlppfpt-po-1p.slb.comcast.com [96.99.226.137]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3dn98t12qn-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:22:36 -0500 Received: from copdcexc34.cable.comcast.com (147.191.125.133) by COPDCEXC37.cable.comcast.com (147.191.125.136) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.20; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 09:22:35 -0700 Received: from COPDCEXEDGE02.resource.comcast.net (76.96.35.199) by copdcexc34.cable.comcast.com (147.191.125.133) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.20 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 09:22:35 -0700 Received: from NAM02-DM3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.56.46) by webmail.comcast.com (76.96.35.199) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:22:35 -0800 Received: from BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:f7::21) by SJ0PR11MB4832.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:2dd::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4888.11; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:22:33 +0000 Received: from BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e089:516a:b348:af67]) by BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e089:516a:b348:af67%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4888.013; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:22:33 +0000 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Alexandre Petrescu , "manycouches@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Manycouches] Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? Thread-Index: AQHYC66KrNQTzcaBn0muYOHTcrFIEaxnAaUAgABesgD//7FVAA== Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:22:33 +0000 Message-ID: <2674D544-73D8-4AC1-93C0-89D1857ACF15@cable.comcast.com> References: <9af600f9-0c76-5145-6eb5-34fc065ce25f@gmail.com> <381712AE-AEA1-42D1-BEA8-86B0553B3BC3@cable.comcast.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.57.22011101 x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 0d652004-dfbc-4e02-bb8d-08d9d9d590e3 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR11MB4832:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7691; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(110136005)(66446008)(64756008)(66556008)(8676002)(66574015)(33656002)(83380400001)(186003)(6506007)(38100700002)(316002)(122000001)(6512007)(66476007)(4744005)(6486002)(71200400001)(82960400001)(508600001)(86362001)(66946007)(2616005)(2906002)(76116006)(91956017)(38070700005)(5660300002)(8936002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?utf-8?B?eFdwT04xemtzcnp3SmhKR0dQOTdvN015Q0ZJQnBvaEtJa09mZFJkOTI1NDdI?= =?utf-8?B?ZFhheHJyV2tIVm45dGZFNFZhUmMvNTNTd1ZmMHhKU3hXaXFTdHZEU1JNNjdZ?= =?utf-8?B?UUVWWG5ib1FSTGovYVJ1eHU2ZWxDY080NFJnQi9XRFJnaGU2ejY1OHE3YXVG?= =?utf-8?B?aG8zMi9kRGhDenRwYjRHMC9yOUxKWWxpcDJVb2RKWHprOW1uY0k3REpwVUVq?= =?utf-8?B?cW4vcWJxajFCNkFPNGRubHE4WnFYSEdTMzI4bUFiNm84M25vR0ZRM0p2MlhS?= =?utf-8?B?RndCcXlaUVhoTnRHc0RKWlE2a2dGd0RxTkhUWWVxdVNTMkpndE9Mc3NTYmVm?= =?utf-8?B?Znp5YTVPaDFBSTFQa1cybDRKL3hvZWNBZTdkdlpod0tkKzByY1FMZHczY2xB?= =?utf-8?B?VndXNFdXQ2orR1dqYzFwdEhCNGh2dllTQllXN3NhU1doQ2JCc0VKak9OVjNM?= =?utf-8?B?ZUpzbnkyMDZicFV1MGF6aHd4WXlrbFp1eThscFZ5eXdUWk8xNGpualpwc1N3?= =?utf-8?B?U1IvN2ppSjg0OG9UcjMydWxpbTlaMGNOZDVxODZlVVhRQkhWTTI0WS9hOU9t?= =?utf-8?B?UnZ6ZzdoYU1oUWlxeFRDS0d6QlFiV0lGb2pSTWVZWUw0L3E4aGNScVNBbGlR?= =?utf-8?B?a2tYQkpmYUJDQUZSU1M3NnlYVUpwNFVDREJlbmV1c0xQdmR1MnFFQXBXVVlw?= =?utf-8?B?VCtFYkQ4VTY4bFZubEdrazFYYndLL0laNTNKd1VmTDUzS0NYdlMyNWhsclNl?= =?utf-8?B?alN5L3BvQWY3NElrb25lZ0w3QW1QNmhybDBtTjN6RWV6ZjcxTG9OMzc5SWFo?= =?utf-8?B?QVhvdWorTHd1UHVTdzJBc2tlNjZ4WkN5MUMyWklGVEo2cVI3T2VjSmpHa3B5?= =?utf-8?B?QjVRcmo0dXVZdlBNRTM2VU1vaG5wY0RJL0dKSDdPbDJFMmNxZFB3Mzd0ZjVX?= =?utf-8?B?d1M1Z2JkdEhjcUV4aE44SGNEZXE3S0U3TjM0bHBzVDZoMnNTNVN5SEJsdThV?= =?utf-8?B?QkYxMWtMaDQrbGxkc1dGVElJdlcyM1ptQ3M4M1RJOUZoVjFWZUxHdWYwRnI1?= =?utf-8?B?SVZnRi9YcFRoeXRVL2ZLd3JSV0E3cUFGaXA3MFE3Yy9hRTZDelB4R3BYV0Fl?= =?utf-8?B?T2FiamVQaGxGYWNIRTBQaUQ0RW9oeERWeXI1dHUwRXdrbEp6MVNGU3JtMlhH?= =?utf-8?B?K2RTYmlGWDZIckR1ejI3N25rRER3azR6Njc0VFBrSGxMaytYU1NHdzB1Yml3?= =?utf-8?B?aTRTQkdtUjZ5Z1JtYjFtb050MTFlakMxdnZLa1RaTVpZdHAvNTFycUwvL3Zr?= =?utf-8?B?b3Bld2lEWVFsYm9jeXI4akFYY1FnT1ZYMElLTTdGZ1hML1NmR1RvV3FrU3VB?= =?utf-8?B?Y1JCTUlXQzk2U0IvVldmQ0d1akFreHExT3dVZDNhYUpUdnVpUlU2NU5Mbk9M?= =?utf-8?B?NzBhc0x0TUkyemY0ckdVOW5FYzgwK2QxV2xwWERwems2a2J1dVQ5MEhGdzF5?= =?utf-8?B?R0NBRElOVVBMTEFzL2JZQkkvcWJhanMyZEpWa2R3eEcyV0JtT3NsTXc4b2hl?= =?utf-8?B?ZW4wK3J5UTZzdVNZS1V0TUYwR05sTlB6U2gvRnFCaEY3WHRNTGZJVmlZWDdB?= =?utf-8?B?RjUzM1JwK1Z2OTBabWZMVzR1Tmt3T2NsVnlYSlc0Y0NSSms1U3IybW9TaTcw?= =?utf-8?B?ZWlxNGVMMlFlakhkUm1NNnJ0bk13ZjczbS9qYXNQN2UrenRON1JiK29Uc0hy?= =?utf-8?B?djBPVHhyMTkybjNDOGFlc0YwaDFXTFRJbndFNWZZdFZVcHg2Skg2alpGNzA2?= =?utf-8?B?eUNuR3A3VUx4dlJvWUJtSEl5c1doUHVjMFJzaGdMb3phZUxiZ25MYW8xSmFx?= =?utf-8?B?SXhPcmxMbW1OVktoRmhMNXc5eU9SdGozcDVGY2M0MHJpd1V5ejZwZW10NjNR?= =?utf-8?B?RU4xdkROYlBmMElWaS9Ud1NCY0M1QUcybXhrQndyUVlld1JuaGR1QkVEZ3h1?= =?utf-8?B?UkpkaEZtN0RLVTRyU3FsazZkL0psT3licExyTUtEZnJhYUtlNEdWcHFUSWlq?= =?utf-8?B?M2NyRUoybUV6cm0rMGxQRWs3VFM2Tkp5S3lCdnVlQklJWjN0TDA5Z2JLdGQx?= =?utf-8?B?dkNzTDg0NTdUK08wYVdRM1NvNE1MUzhhTWtHQnN1Ny83TDIwUXlCWkhtN0ky?= =?utf-8?B?MGhqd3U1ZWJkVHRONGhBblZsbGppNm1jaVQ2QytxbURubkt0Q1RKSmdnSkRp?= =?utf-8?B?YythVUZlRlhDeHZwelRnV0tDVHR6QWsxZzE0TmlzVnVpaWgwVkliSTRWUE14?= =?utf-8?B?dzZhYWNVVWw1MDN4YVZVUFRjYWpQcE9lNzJhbXN1bXc0R2VQYXhhQT09?= arc-seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=e7zk5sNbgZK3bLrn5i0O2KUJZ0+UAcM3kUTxVQDQ1fQIaj/EyVwuy5Ohj3K5iwyerDzoRqb26c27Gkmojml3ys8pzaJOYnLz+zwUOp6++7jVZ4N4TnbnsWd062N37I60tvVZdsl5p+MzLNgzTi9KmjwM846P68e1AdrUgSBwoUY7iaFDYT2q07oZeeN2Xc7xhBi1YmBQ6hd8ka0DnIwrG/0LY76H8JMX6R8G8QZJrUMcpFIwYA47+cPpee54AKZ5ZOBJjBrlemLm4cyhk24DKgbZER/MswmNPa+0qlHuuTmmuNnqloWfknCnPehhY2r4BZSJGufdQC8ngKSu5ueNyg== arc-message-signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=p5p8s1ZFBl3UmcIkZOZ7/n/C1nr1XmjE5+Iazbr5fRk=; b=AP64ugoELDzxTncLvC3Jql+nfrbLND5Fha66waZRGO9NHrAiTNTIhnH9eAdZSTOZ2tteZPpV6QNbJYnCClPtYPzyiMPkTEsRke0obdtnwMJHTXdu3W/W3n7njoA4DdDOCIoFwTGoTzI5gvCZdVYNdEVucYWuGTQTwPaqNXoGcFHXN3haLUf9paR4jTrw1HTpfc+j5zaOWmXerun3R8gs5N3wz3XEwOS1j8oQAkYKx6Bg7UxUtVjqwA67FSC4TIN69JWuJwT9VBgMNWE8pdc62MUzs6TrbLGXGvj+97acazDpyVvLdSvE5iwviVX6i68tcFNFgdKqPVPerN4uHy3hnQ== arc-authentication-results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cable.comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=cable.comcast.com; arc=none x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authas: Internal x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authsource: BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-network-message-id: 0d652004-dfbc-4e02-bb8d-08d9d9d590e3 x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Jan 2022 16:22:33.0334 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: 7ZvO+Vp4JwY52JS1M0OezepOpXYCIpC+7uJ1d1u4l5tOva1dIvDj8LL16c/F9YrqwZrOIhFQeeEdwdJMYwgTOF1IAH+FlqiLD9damcYdLZM= x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: SJ0PR11MB4832 x-originatororg: cable.comcast.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <4A6C8EAD12CEB045A24E1AE09CB5E464@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWT X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 8_kEdw0_9CAIckDMN4u2z8dKTItd3Ump X-Proofpoint-GUID: 8_kEdw0_9CAIckDMN4u2z8dKTItd3Ump X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2022-01-17_07,2022-01-14_01,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] [EXTERNAL] Re: Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:22:46 -0000 ICAgID4+IEkgd291bGQgaW1hZ2luZSBsaWtlIG1hbnkgY2l0aWVzLCB0aGV5IHJlcG9ydCBvbiBk YWlseSB0ZXN0DQogICAgPj4gc3RhdGlzdGljcyBidXQgbm90IGluIGEgd2F5IHRoYXQgaXMgaWRl bnRpZmlhYmxlIHRvIGxvY2F0aW9ucywNCiAgICA+PiBldmVudHMsIG9yIGluZGl2aWR1YWxzLg0K DQogICAgPiBCdXQgaW4gdGhhdCB3YXkgd2Ugd2lsbCBub3QgYmUgY2FwYWJsZSB0byBzYXkgd2hl dGhlciBvciBub3QgdGhlIElFVEYgaW4tcGVyc29uIGNvbXBvbmVudCBoYXMgaGVscGVkIG9yIGhh cyBub3QgaGVscGVkIHNwcmVhZCB0aGUgdmlydXMuIFdlIHdpbGwgbm90IGJlIGNhcGFibGUsIGFm dGVyIHRoZSBtZWV0aW5nLCB0byB0ZWxsIHdoZXRoZXIgb3Igbm90IGl0IHdhcyBhIGdvb2QgaWRl YSwgYSBnb29kIHByb2Nlc3Mgd2l0aCByZXNwZWN0IHRvIGNvdmlkLiBJZiB3ZSBoYWQgZGFpbHkg dGVzdGluZyBhbmQgdGhlIHJlc3VsdHMgb2YgdGVzdHMgdGhlbiB3ZSB3b3VsZCBzYXkgeWVzIG9y IG5vLCBpdCB3b3JrZWQuDQoNCkkgY2VydGFpbmx5IGFncmVlIHdpdGggeW91IHRoYXQgdGhlIElF VEYgbGlrZXMgdG8gbWFrZSBkYXRhLWRyaXZlbiBkZWNpc2lvbnMuIElmIHdlIGhhdmUgYWNjZXNz IHRvIHN1bW1hcnkgZGF0YSwgdGhpcyBtaWdodCBiZSBoZWxwZnVsLiBCdXQgd2UgbWF5IGFsc28g bm90IGtub3cgdW50aWwgd2UgYXJlIG9uIHNpdGUgZm9yIHRoZSBtZWV0aW5nLCBpbiBwYXJ0IGJl Y2F1c2UgbG9jYWwgcnVsZXMgYXJlIHN1YmplY3QgdG8gY2hhbmdlIGFuZCB0aGlzIHBhbmRlbWlj IGNvbnRpbnVlcyB0byBldm9sdmUuDQoNCkpMDQoNCg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Jan 17 08:22:53 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9A13A12FD for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:22:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vtn1otH3hIkE for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:22:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B491B3A12FE for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:22:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HGMh5N022362; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:22:43 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 53DE2208487; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:22:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46FF4208406; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:22:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HGMhCH015405; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:22:43 +0100 Message-ID: <0670a070-dc32-959d-03b8-8887c2194bb3@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:22:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: "Livingood, Jason" , "manycouches@ietf.org" References: <9af600f9-0c76-5145-6eb5-34fc065ce25f@gmail.com> <381712AE-AEA1-42D1-BEA8-86B0553B3BC3@cable.comcast.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] [EXTERNAL] Re: Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:22:53 -0000 Thank you for replying. I agree with you it is hard to discuss, and at times irrelevant, as things change. Le 17/01/2022 à 17:19, Livingood, Jason a écrit : >> will there be mandatory testing? > > Yes, as the web page for 113 notes, there will be mandatory testing. > It will be provided on-site at the venue for free.* As the web site puts it, it means that if there are 499 attendees, or less, then then surely there is no testing. That is my reading. I think you think differently, right? I think you think that there will be PCR testing irrespective to the number of attendees, right? Alex > > JL > > * It is IMO not terribly relevant to discuss unknown attendee > numbers. The key is testing is required at this time and it will be > available on site and at no cost. Rules may also change - the web > page will be kept up to date. > > From nobody Mon Jan 17 08:28:42 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4BB3A1329 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:28:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iHbTB0R6ISU0 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com [148.163.141.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2ED833A1320 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0184889.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with ESMTP id 20HFl6wX017560; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:28:34 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=20190412; bh=DhXoyuowEitLNzRlxAOAJP2ympiIDcGfhONI3iZuLpI=; b=VZPs6TLGm2RcQBfwwLlcEwt5sEv0Wia3DG5j8ag96UgTPjtYlNjNY9HrxzdQI3wKPMPq 3OIcdgXNsGb+mj69AhKKaI9HEb70O9g6wi4EeOUEDqtsBoykMTLDLGoSaPlbLSMtn8nH 9ktc+BknI1iK45DRrA2xBc16zVCAMhlT52XviZj8485st0ww0x2iNAhqwO4RUb6eb4NK /rrkNdo4SUZjGY0TjDnXwCjA3eq+0M9iUAHOmdL0MscVk09X9uDiRng6OudumCtcKe0L S2hbZLngjUGPBgUsi3/I+Djaeu44pnz9rWKEEljilW+OM22gErlmvdO3AMzHfVyUtaHW Bw== Received: from pacdcexop05.cable.comcast.com (dlppfpt-wc-1p.slb.comcast.com [96.99.226.136]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3dn6cthvw2-4 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:28:33 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXOP01.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.148) by PACDCEXOP05.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:28:32 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXEDGE01.cable.comcast.com (76.96.78.71) by PACDCEXOP01.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:28:32 -0500 Received: from NAM11-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.57.175) by webmail.comcast.com (76.96.78.71) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.26; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:28:09 -0500 Received: from BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:f7::21) by BYAPR11MB3143.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:92::32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4888.9; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:28:06 +0000 Received: from BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e089:516a:b348:af67]) by BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e089:516a:b348:af67%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4888.013; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:28:06 +0000 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Alexandre Petrescu , "manycouches@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Manycouches] Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? Thread-Index: AQHYC66KrNQTzcaBn0muYOHTcrFIEaxnAaUAgABbLID//7PugIAAVM0A//+trYA= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:28:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9af600f9-0c76-5145-6eb5-34fc065ce25f@gmail.com> <381712AE-AEA1-42D1-BEA8-86B0553B3BC3@cable.comcast.com> <0670a070-dc32-959d-03b8-8887c2194bb3@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0670a070-dc32-959d-03b8-8887c2194bb3@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.57.22011101 x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6b496339-2d06-4fa5-06c0-08d9d9d6574b x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR11MB3143:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(2906002)(76116006)(66946007)(66446008)(38100700002)(64756008)(66476007)(66556008)(2616005)(6512007)(91956017)(38070700005)(508600001)(186003)(122000001)(71200400001)(8936002)(110136005)(53546011)(4744005)(86362001)(82960400001)(316002)(33656002)(8676002)(5660300002)(6486002)(6506007)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?utf-8?B?bXlybmZ1OUJnQnVoZXZScC9PVnVKYU9NU1NUL3pNbStXaGM1V0FJaUdvcGJk?= =?utf-8?B?ZlJkcGZpenBlWkRTNjFXNFJPNHRaeGZML2MxYUovRjhmaFoweU9IODhtbnMz?= =?utf-8?B?WlZMYk5UN0FyNjlOR2pJaU9vSFpSbzRSM1A5U1hyeTJSd2pGN1NVNHZ3SGpr?= =?utf-8?B?MmNRck9rVXFJL25HQVZ0WFJ6MmFNa09va2JLQU84clFRV3BJQnlnSCsxVFZS?= =?utf-8?B?Zk1hQVlsMVkzM29vYngwd2hRbXFGbVhnUk5ZS0NubS9CbzFvUjZVbzlrMDd5?= =?utf-8?B?L1N6TFM5ZzAvYTdqRU03blRvcHdOU2ZyYWMzaktvTFdwOG8vaXU4ajY2MTg3?= =?utf-8?B?N0k2VDg4ZjdKNjFzSVB2V3JMNWhqUDVBYnM3QnN6TlFtL0Z4ejRwYU9pUDhL?= =?utf-8?B?UVdDN3pCQUhmSEtHcXNtSnJIME5XbHo1VXhMSThweFZ2blZUUnFIM0g3MDVM?= =?utf-8?B?bkNTbkZYb1VYSkNkdWVCSEo4MUZiVlc5bEdkczhBRFFNQzBjeVJidm5PQTZr?= =?utf-8?B?WFNWRVZOMW5kMGVRdVR2L3l5eHYvQ0grWENXcHVqUnNETjQrRWNHb2NKSkZr?= =?utf-8?B?QUhPak5yWUFIMjl6WWNaWXpRTE1LRWVDTFdhL2tDVHhBem4wTXBZZDNoV0sx?= =?utf-8?B?SlFCMng4OXlkelVEYWhvN0FrTWhLd3FtemZvVkMvNkNtZzFsMUoxTEcxcWZC?= =?utf-8?B?K2o1S0tQTUgzeCtvSUYwUlcyanBqaEdwS3A2Zll4eEV1QXo2dVZMM1FqU1hq?= =?utf-8?B?NlN5L2pPYUdnVXhyNDZnSmdMNENtYzJhVmpQNHBveFliNDVGc29YQklDaGdh?= =?utf-8?B?d1llVXVpTTY2QnpkVUl4cXNLNWxzUDN1eHZ1VSt1REt4b2lPR0NmTzdIaXZu?= =?utf-8?B?RndHNWhsYjlMYkRLQjNGTUdFT0VYQU5YT1VjN2U4V3hYUmxRcERJSHV5Nm5s?= =?utf-8?B?YkhGdmlrM0tUR3diRFRtckhmN1JRaC9yeWZmbUExRFVkN2JjajhMTVhINHNU?= =?utf-8?B?U095VjdFZ1dxQVpDbytvK2lWaTNFYmJFaGJlTE1BQ0RTNjZ6WkgyTXFTNGtQ?= =?utf-8?B?S09zcnkzWlgzaWo5anNnT1BYMGZ1REwvdUJTU2ptTVJycENYQ013aW52Y2Fi?= =?utf-8?B?NTYxRTFiV1VXcFhtY0JrN0RwdDNjVm4zSG9kWkh5ZHBTNlB4REdjUVJMeC95?= =?utf-8?B?Vmg5Yy9IUVIwekdwVDdNdkRiOUpvSHRlazA2V0s1NzBFWlZqanVmRjZUeGRY?= =?utf-8?B?QkoveEdWWDN1cnFoRDcwM1hjTHhOeEJPZm9VRlRIVGVJTjZnVHVqVm8vQWRT?= =?utf-8?B?dDdRcHR2RldCV3M4SjF0ZE96MmdGY25pMFJlNzJ2Z2I2NDl3ejRQOFBvcnl0?= =?utf-8?B?RTdtOU1WZjN0bnY0WENDYW5sekFmeUN0cmtySUN3VnBWZTlEdU9DUU00MERC?= =?utf-8?B?a3JYMHgrTkZQWFZFREFnU1Q2N1g4d3VZL09XVG9pbWdyL3M4YmJxdDlMZmFO?= =?utf-8?B?SDlpa3U4aTVoVGRlTXJnNEtuZSt4U29hbmdHWWV1SGtCOXFvd0dDTlJVMTRr?= =?utf-8?B?bjlWYXdLcnNhSnFQbXM5NWVLWjljZ2V0VmRMMTJqTVFkOFpPd0EwYm56OG1N?= =?utf-8?B?WTh6YXlYZFM2WllGRWVYRVZsK3Y3dzQ2aVpIVXRzS3pPV1d6K0tXTkRsZ3Z1?= =?utf-8?B?STRkUU5aUFJxZXJ0ajVIcEpBblU0Zy9lWTB2dmxpWEpibjFKWmcwK1plUER3?= =?utf-8?B?RnR4cmVCbFFwU1BpZ3cvbGI0Zm5FbFpmbmdZS1FhK2hIVlI5WmZGV0lQeWla?= =?utf-8?B?eWIyK3hISi9KM3UzZkJTa3VnVkNFRGo3Qkd1M1Z5MmswZUJHM0dNSnBZeTdN?= =?utf-8?B?eXBDQVA1OUs3YmhVZk5uN0QyUzhhbTUvNjBlNlByd0FEMXQ4RVZEc01IaTJ4?= =?utf-8?B?cXdmT0R1UHNTeHFyUlZRLzRTWlVxdXlKbTJ1SkJUTlh6Ly9yS2lPdmxOK1pt?= =?utf-8?B?bDZldHJZZHZ4MUdZTzNURDV5a2ZNc25VbjVYcHFCUHJmN2FhOUxJbytJWldN?= =?utf-8?B?Vm9Qa0lPUjJNY0RXTnVNMnd2c1F5eW4yNDdyTyszTTlEcmQ1ck5JWVFTazhT?= =?utf-8?B?OG1iQUcwdktwbVhUTmtDK0FVMGs1S1BpbXJHTFJ6eDEwa0RvMUVoNVBCOUlM?= =?utf-8?B?ZXBRV2p6YlAwcGJxa3ZURm9FdDRiZ2xkRFhSSWVsdjRPS2hWWDBoWG5Xc29Y?= =?utf-8?B?dWcwMUpwRVJBdmdzbFI1cG5mRWpkYjAvOENZYWlpZE1Dc0I5YmdUTTJ0TWI1?= =?utf-8?B?djZKN1N0KzhEb0FRZDM1WFBzbW1YcDgva21Zc1hQNEFENVNuSk0wYk1DbzhI?= =?utf-8?Q?yzyKo6Ubqsym6Rjw=3D?= arc-seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=azmW3jrajCbWu0GvtZcyiiqiH3zZT8UQrP58B6Z+/IMl2ddw4oR9ZUXHNwPYRiGkQNbyXw4yRMR2wHe6rdp+zW4k43jf9EOf6aWAuaPgpWA2a/eFpxhTNWWYVu75QI9Vv6p7bdUk3WjRL4ta1c69AdbIBczk/FhBbCVES1+pqD2Im+C2hZ1HDdOzaIWJKzAZFW0mmM32XNCD5DvoU/706ioupuKvDI4zo1dFPGg8zqmHDCfR0FY5UqZJaG2zqN/wV94DvZutySS33vLy3DEoXGZPfGDUyTipCBYhtti1BCF75hPtCQGQdZHPIfDMkRVeR5W/aQ/W+nt1+DaztCiP1Q== arc-message-signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=PTmhOteT5cob5rQrHNRZCF4YfHUY9qYTta6JxGaVGu0=; b=UwRR0V+/5s7c++w5M9aTn91pBJMIXHsCImQ7OOURfF1oOD7FFTqQxJBlgD4sW24lUMOzdWTmluUFnCY9H0JzQ5DXpPKaSHKqxqYvxTsPXSeqkXM3UQJlkccPVLjXRVT0PIDtN9ARQvBl7B8d/HNrdbjsaZRGes7TLN+Q9ueS+4T4fh8ODWIlDLs2PUL1zB9zP1087nqlYyFOcRIz5mnXNzrLlBSr3lTBPDPK1l6cwiIWT489B02dVbzRFZFM8XyvvAk8b8VUONMfEElEnd/IgHCLTFGBqVJjbbIeW8MvFo/54j6OvZL+yLDv5kjLs0M2f0E1NhxIfhDN5vmHxunfBQ== arc-authentication-results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cable.comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=cable.comcast.com; arc=none x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authas: Internal x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authsource: BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-network-message-id: 6b496339-2d06-4fa5-06c0-08d9d9d6574b x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Jan 2022 16:28:05.8836 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: T+Mn//PNcMcxzIi+W9faSYBVr6iJ1/0A71fQ63R77e1T92yUpq6cHUzniXqv0EIGFK3jEiy28H+Qepz/x2vhhsbz8iq7UP2eD5GrrKHX06g= x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: BYAPR11MB3143 x-originatororg: cable.comcast.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWH X-Proofpoint-GUID: ig-STxBBY4s3p2EbyXCiuG-6LbvQGbW7 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: ig-STxBBY4s3p2EbyXCiuG-6LbvQGbW7 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2022-01-17_07,2022-01-14_01,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] [EXTERNAL] Re: Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:28:41 -0000 T24gMS8xNy8yMiwgMTE6MjIsICJBbGV4YW5kcmUgUGV0cmVzY3UiIDxhbGV4YW5kcmUucGV0cmVz Y3VAZ21haWwuY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KICAgID4+PiB3aWxsIHRoZXJlIGJlIG1hbmRhdG9yeSB0 ZXN0aW5nPw0KICAgID4+IFllcywgYXMgdGhlIHdlYiBwYWdlIGZvciAxMTMgbm90ZXMsIHRoZXJl IHdpbGwgYmUgbWFuZGF0b3J5IHRlc3RpbmcuDQogICAgPj4gSXQgd2lsbCBiZSBwcm92aWRlZCBv bi1zaXRlIGF0IHRoZSB2ZW51ZSBmb3IgZnJlZS4qDQoNCj4gQXMgdGhlIHdlYiBzaXRlIHB1dHMg aXQsIGl0IG1lYW5zIHRoYXQgaWYgdGhlcmUgYXJlIDQ5OSBhdHRlbmRlZXMsIG9yDQogICAgbGVz cywgdGhlbiB0aGVuIHN1cmVseSB0aGVyZSBpcyBubyB0ZXN0aW5nLg0KDQogICBJZiB5b3UgY29t ZSB0byBJRVRGLTExMywgbm8gbWF0dGVyIGhvdyBtYW55IG9mIHlvdXIgY29sbGVhZ3VlcyBhdHRl bmQsIHlvdSBzaG91bGQgYW50aWNpcGF0ZSB0aGF0IHlvdSBtdXN0IHRlc3QgZGFpbHkuIFRlc3Rp bmcgd2lsbCBiZSBwcm92aWRlZCBvbi1zaXRlIGFuZCBmcmVlIG9mIGNoYXJnZS4NCg0KDQo= From nobody Mon Jan 17 08:33:55 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 082313A1360 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:33:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fm-ued7tYTgM for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:33:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E0D43A1361 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:33:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HGXipe028487; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:33:44 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 3A9F2208451; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:33:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D37220842A; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:33:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HGXi3t021142; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:33:44 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:33:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: "Livingood, Jason" , "manycouches@ietf.org" References: <9af600f9-0c76-5145-6eb5-34fc065ce25f@gmail.com> <381712AE-AEA1-42D1-BEA8-86B0553B3BC3@cable.comcast.com> <2674D544-73D8-4AC1-93C0-89D1857ACF15@cable.comcast.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <2674D544-73D8-4AC1-93C0-89D1857ACF15@cable.comcast.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] [EXTERNAL] Re: Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:33:54 -0000 Le 17/01/2022 à 17:22, Livingood, Jason a écrit : >>> I would imagine like many cities, they report on daily test >>> statistics but not in a way that is identifiable to locations, >>> events, or individuals. > >> But in that way we will not be capable to say whether or not the >> IETF in-person component has helped or has not helped spread the >> virus. We will not be capable, after the meeting, to tell whether >> or not it was a good idea, a good process with respect to covid. >> If we had daily testing and the results of tests then we would say >> yes or no, it worked. > > I certainly agree with you that the IETF likes to make data-driven > decisions. If we have access to summary data, this might be helpful. > But we may also not know until we are on site for the meeting, in > part because local rules are subject to change and this pandemic > continues to evolve. I agree with you it is hard to know all the details until one is there to see precisely. Also because the situation changes. However, once on site it is not anylonger possible to _not_ be onsite, i.e. to return back. It will be impossible to tell all attendees that, well testing is not clear, so we dont meet. It might be these are too important things to leave them to the moment to when one is on site. Testing is like this: if I am positive then I dont go. I must test at home prior to departure, at landing prior to hotel, and at hotel prior to conference. At each step I reserve the right to not do the next step if the test is positive. Testing is not like this: if I am positive then I know I am positive but I still go and try be careful. On-site testing is like this: we test in order to know whether or not what we do is good, for the next time. On-site testing is not like this: we test because the authorities require us to test otherwise they dont allow us to meet. Alex > > JL > > > > From nobody Mon Jan 17 08:34:28 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F3E3A1367 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:34:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kHZUirXkfRRA for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:34:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BB243A1366 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:34:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HGYJU4014780; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:34:19 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id DAA73208451; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:34:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCAAD20267D; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:34:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HGYJrq021323; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:34:19 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:34:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: "Livingood, Jason" , "manycouches@ietf.org" References: <9af600f9-0c76-5145-6eb5-34fc065ce25f@gmail.com> <381712AE-AEA1-42D1-BEA8-86B0553B3BC3@cable.comcast.com> <0670a070-dc32-959d-03b8-8887c2194bb3@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] [EXTERNAL] Re: Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:34:27 -0000 Le 17/01/2022 à 17:28, Livingood, Jason a écrit : > On 1/17/22, 11:22, "Alexandre Petrescu" > wrote: > >>>> will there be mandatory testing? >>> Yes, as the web page for 113 notes, there will be mandatory >>> testing. It will be provided on-site at the venue for free.* > >> As the web site puts it, it means that if there are 499 attendees, >> or > less, then then surely there is no testing. > > If you come to IETF-113, no matter how many of your colleagues > attend, you should anticipate that you must test daily. Testing will > be provided on-site and free of charge. IF so, then that's what the page should say. The number 500 should not be there. Alex > > From nobody Mon Jan 17 08:40:36 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D473A13CB for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:40:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.671 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.671 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jdco1yRYQ9eZ for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:40:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B23623A13BB for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:40:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HGeTXH027787 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:40:29 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id EC061201B71 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:40:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D956320847B for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:40:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HGeSxE024070 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:40:28 +0100 Message-ID: <57b9775d-8443-7f7e-075d-a97c3df52b38@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:40:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: "manycouches@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Vienna - Sputnik V and Sinovac allowed as vaccine or not? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:40:36 -0000 Vienna, the convention.at says Sputnik V is not allowed, but the EMA site has Sputnik V on the waiting list. Same for Sinovac. What would one from that country do now? Plan to come or not? EMA stands for European something, so it would prevail to what convention.at says (.at stands for Austria and Austria is member of Europe; members of European Union usually follow the EMA guidelines for vaccine, even though at a delay of some weeks). Alex https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/overview/public-health-threats/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/treatments-vaccines/covid-19-vaccines https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/covid-related-requirements/ From nobody Mon Jan 17 08:43:34 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41563A13F6 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:43:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sandelman.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6w9OsONvk-4l for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:43:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A9133A13EF for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:43:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3A938BA9; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:49:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id apAFEYBcoVkk; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:49:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B7438BA8; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:49:39 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sandelman.ca; s=mail; t=1642438179; bh=P2z65HKQAkV9oDkfkdgdM0iVuSxn6lhPmnEJHVXAPW0=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=TgV6lyb+qSJje0zHBJAfrQETotAIYD7wSQWhAIHVAsG2if3+dhwJe0WWLn14Sv7qO J59RNH4juqkGR6L/+3jov2tmd0pDVsn+LtE0amrQlVEC/mGUHUyIrBGEeqkuwaZ5dW lqsfwFNBmZsi4PYwHlOSfgPf2bSI53au3f7oxZz4lXaqkrv1PNQ8uDrwvG64NzrPrI BE9Pjd5iquf6xPFUNCy6tFAg/TX98KuO4Cdv2oYjaqEgcxfRIo7biSkLIAkBg9ctw7 gdEDROI5oLtrr+6N7AkioCZBAArseDVpYMjwI3WwblKC8irwXMsmJCioq+Z8+Ya5r6 UH5AbEu3CuHEA== Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3FE6BE; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:43:24 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Livingood, Jason" , "manycouches@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <381712AE-AEA1-42D1-BEA8-86B0553B3BC3@cable.comcast.com> References: <9af600f9-0c76-5145-6eb5-34fc065ce25f@gmail.com> <381712AE-AEA1-42D1-BEA8-86B0553B3BC3@cable.comcast.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:43:24 -0500 Message-ID: <16236.1642437804@localhost> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:43:33 -0000 Livingood, Jason wrote: >> Will there be mandatory daily PCR testing for the in-person compone= nt >> in Vienna? > The meeting registration page is correct as written: For gatherings = of > over 500 persons, daily PCR testing is required of all delegates. Fr= ee > testing will be available onsite at the Hilton Vienna Park (the 113 > meeting venue). If we should clock in at 498 persons, or whatever, what happens? It seems like we should just opt for certainty that there will be daily te= sting. From nobody Mon Jan 17 08:43:48 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F773A13F4 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:43:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.67 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.67 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VgEk-XnXai60 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:43:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEB7E3A13EF for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HGhhJg017169 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:43:43 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 5166E20847B for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:43:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E26E2084B1 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:43:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HGhhRA025285 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:43:43 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:43:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: "manycouches@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:43:47 -0000 https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/covid-related-requirements/ > C. Face masks are required when indoors > > Participants must wear FFP2 or N95 face masks when indoors and > outside of their guest room. Surgical and cloth masks are not > acceptable, nor are neck gaiters or balaclavas. FFP2 masks are > readily available at local shops, and we will also have masks > available onsite. I some times wear FFP2 and other times FFP3. Am I allowed to wear FFP3 in Vienna IETF? Maybe it should say 'must wear at least FFP2 or N95, and FFP3 is also allowed' and say 'wearing surgeon's masks, and wearing manufactured tissue mask, is not allowed - neither one nor another'. Alex From nobody Mon Jan 17 09:19:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E953A00E9 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 09:19:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L_GvmpYpTC_l for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 09:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (mx4.open-xchange.com [87.191.57.184]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED7353A00E1 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 09:19:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from imap.open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1DA236A0D0; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 18:19:36 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1642439976; bh=gD/6NOlrWuyDIW1E/kj03qrzrcOZ9ceICTmGH9j7NlI=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=Z7cWnec/ikP9h5pMlPGKdlni7KNxbnrFFW0Pb5Z4g7wLoSN/rOck4yCl6IFYnAcnv Zk1pg6n7DGfjKFt/M4rPZQVnDX/vQpmzAzhVnittYBoHN2+xuvk5bk8cFnYz7cgvBB d8WNcrdsINni3s0j93DQ+ZR0PtTsfIinrxJxN0/J432P19GWWes8ZjnlmQ/O/D8E4a rZffnA90ZznSRY8HR9hKgCcQI+5DON7rpaMjdRpS2hhwl1NYfDXeW4eOGA29tGTGxR hst2tUBW/JYmnMhAiiHLnXsMLpoymSo62V2JXR1QMNGfu1tq1joStmsJ2haedEngXI Z76lc32qdGUTw== Received: from appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com ([10.20.28.82]) by imap.open-xchange.com with ESMTPSA id KfAjByil5WHvYQAA3c6Kzw (envelope-from ); Mon, 17 Jan 2022 18:19:36 +0100 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 18:19:36 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Alexandre Petrescu , "manycouches@ietf.org" Message-ID: <807739550.23977.1642439976038@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.6-Rev5 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:19:46 -0000 > Il 17/01/2022 17:43 Alexandre Petrescu ha scritto: > > > https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/covid-related-requirements/ > > > C. Face masks are required when indoors > > > > Participants must wear FFP2 or N95 face masks when indoors and > > outside of their guest room. Surgical and cloth masks are not > > acceptable, nor are neck gaiters or balaclavas. FFP2 masks are > > readily available at local shops, and we will also have masks > > available onsite. > > I some times wear FFP2 and other times FFP3. > > Am I allowed to wear FFP3 in Vienna IETF? I think you are asking for certainties that cannot be provided. Even if someone had a clear answer now, that answer might change tomorrow, or one minute before you step into the meeting venue after travelling there, because of reasons and authorities that are outside of the IETF's control. The only possible answer to all your questions is: if you are not willing to take risks or bear with uncertainties, do not even consider attending in person. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Mon Jan 17 10:22:59 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CBD63A0DCD for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:22:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FwDzN2k_Z05Q for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93B7C3A0DC9 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HIMpHl024234; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:22:51 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id F1069208536; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:22:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3A75208502; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:22:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.11] ([10.14.0.11]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HIMo18001442; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:22:50 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:22:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: Vittorio Bertola , "manycouches@ietf.org" References: <807739550.23977.1642439976038@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <807739550.23977.1642439976038@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 18:22:58 -0000 Le 17/01/2022 à 18:19, Vittorio Bertola a écrit : > > >> Il 17/01/2022 17:43 Alexandre Petrescu >> ha scritto: >> >> >> https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/covid-related-requirements/ >> >>> C. Face masks are required when indoors >>> >>> Participants must wear FFP2 or N95 face masks when indoors and >>> outside of their guest room. Surgical and cloth masks are not >>> acceptable, nor are neck gaiters or balaclavas. FFP2 masks are >>> readily available at local shops, and we will also have masks >>> available onsite. >> >> I some times wear FFP2 and other times FFP3. >> >> Am I allowed to wear FFP3 in Vienna IETF? > > I think you are asking for certainties that cannot be provided. Even > if someone had a clear answer now, that answer might change tomorrow, > or one minute before you step into the meeting venue after travelling > there, because of reasons and authorities that are outside of the > IETF's control. > > The only possible answer to all your questions is: if you are not > willing to take risks or bear with uncertainties, do not even > consider attending in person. I think one does not understand me. I agree with you that certainties can not be provided. I agree that things change as we speak and it is hard to plan. However, I think that the protocol can be largely improved. Current knowledge about covid is relatively in advance of the current covid protocol of IETF. The IETF covid protocol is not even an IETF protocol, but it is an Austrian protocol. That protocol is behind and they prepare a large change too. What might be considered as uknowns by some are well knowns by others. I will try to write separate emails, maybe each thing is different. For this topic, I want to tell this: FFP3 are likely to protect more than FFP2. FFP3 and FFP2 existed before covid. PRobably there wont be an FFP4. The IETF covid text should be formulated accordingly. I will formulate another email about masks. One is free to disregard my emails. Alex > From nobody Mon Jan 17 10:32:27 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1FA73A0E4C for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:32:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.668 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.668 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KCl5EdEroHWb for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:32:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78B1A3A0E49 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:32:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HIWNI9042357 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:32:23 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 70846208539 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:32:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67377208244 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:32:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.11] ([10.14.0.11]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HIWNYR003819 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:32:23 +0100 Message-ID: <70126db3-61e3-0922-8fbb-ed1eae8cf078@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:32:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: "manycouches@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] FFP2, FFP3 and N95 masks have versions with valves - they ate likely to not protect the others X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 18:32:27 -0000 One would like to know that FFP2, FFP3 and N95 denominations of masks, and probably others similar, have been conceived before covid. They are very much designed to protect the wearer under certain work conditions, including hospitals, but mainly others such as where there are various forms of dust. Also protect the cyclist against pollutants from automobile engines. Some of these masks have valves - a 1cm round. These valves serve to exhale in an easier way. I dont know the denomination for those with valve, but I know there are FFP2s denominated FFP2, and that have valves too. There are also FFP2s, 3s, N95s without valves. I think - I am almost certain - that these masks with valve allow air to be exhaled towards the outside of the mask. This kind of protection still protects the wearer a lot, but if the wearer has virus then this virus is very much likely to go outside the mask towards the others. If it is thought the reverse - the valves dont exhale viruses - then I stand corrected. Until then I think there is a misunderstanding in thinking FFP2 with valve protects the others. To that end, it would help for the IETF covid protocol to recommend the use of masks of a certain type, but certainly the masks _without_ valve. Alex From nobody Mon Jan 17 10:37:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205033A0E7C for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:37:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.67 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.67 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hdl_7qXvU0YW for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB6E33A0E7A for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HIbdsW009479 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:37:39 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E2FE20854C for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:37:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B3C520847B for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:37:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.11] ([10.14.0.11]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HIbdMH004886 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:37:39 +0100 Message-ID: <7d76af49-83c3-337a-97b8-62ffb4ca28cc@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:37:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: "manycouches@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] IETF in-person meeting component influence of the world situation X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 18:37:43 -0000 I personally think the following: what each person does influences any other person across the world. There is a notion of responsibility (ethics, or whatever you want to call it) which primes over the technical work. For my part, at this time, I think that attending an IETF online meeting that has an in-person part without guarantees of non-spread represents a risk in further growing the covid. The risk is probably much lower than other risks, but it is there. For this reason, I might not attend the next online IETF meeting. Alex From nobody Mon Jan 17 10:40:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9229D3A0E95 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:40:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id udbUCpHa6CMX for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com [148.163.141.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05CE23A0EA0 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 10:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0184889.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with ESMTP id 20HHefYX008009; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 13:40:12 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=20190412; bh=hxs2bGg8Y/QIqlzpolrhRpawnVkvxfU63ztBMSqBo6M=; b=LldbIAd5KEA9mU1Nc59C5NicT1IKiCKJs3mayFrF1uPy5lifTR/OlT7NR0aRZpPsJiDZ uOxQZcz1XYPrqjT06O1JV4OdMSEmIzCEC8hxGV0ECczPAHRD6nNW8TloYHslEz963v+e dz0ef+mM7XBNuv84KK5El6QPQyjvzHo1d4PbUfPLYvDEKzXaeICx1opX0pYvXrWoAqFd eRd2qfV3bK55eylluqzDkSOgt3VnfVGBYXAMuwNf+tgsYKsjnh3vOE/uy7wOLOZfTNX3 C/ig+EJZDPlW/kMe33N2FvJFArtGmNke0afqOWWVr2nzpn8LFhB/aJ72+kgY1JJY0rlT 4A== Received: from pacdcexop02.cable.comcast.com (dlppfpt-wc-1p.slb.comcast.com [96.99.226.136]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3dn6ctjp6p-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 17 Jan 2022 13:40:11 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXOP03.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.150) by PACDCEXOP02.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 13:40:10 -0500 Received: from pacdcexedge02.cable.comcast.com (68.87.38.198) by PACDCEXOP03.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.150) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 13:40:10 -0500 Received: from NAM02-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.57.43) by webmail.comcast.com (68.87.38.198) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 13:40:10 -0500 Received: from BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:f7::21) by MN2PR11MB3870.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:152::11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4888.11; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 18:40:07 +0000 Received: from BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e089:516a:b348:af67]) by BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e089:516a:b348:af67%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4888.013; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 18:40:07 +0000 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Michael Richardson , "manycouches@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Manycouches] Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? Thread-Index: AQHYC66KrNQTzcaBn0muYOHTcrFIEaxnAaUAgABprQD//8zKAA== Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 18:40:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9af600f9-0c76-5145-6eb5-34fc065ce25f@gmail.com> <381712AE-AEA1-42D1-BEA8-86B0553B3BC3@cable.comcast.com> <16236.1642437804@localhost> In-Reply-To: <16236.1642437804@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.57.22011101 x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b540c4f4-0443-4e65-d66c-08d9d9e8c8a4 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB3870:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:5797; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(122000001)(33656002)(2616005)(66476007)(6506007)(53546011)(186003)(316002)(4744005)(6486002)(5660300002)(6512007)(38100700002)(83380400001)(86362001)(38070700005)(110136005)(8676002)(8936002)(508600001)(76116006)(82960400001)(71200400001)(91956017)(2906002)(66556008)(64756008)(66446008)(66946007)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?utf-8?B?SEZxL1lTMUVlL2J1YXRYSDVNV0pRenB1d3J2Qm5QcEJaYXV0aGVTZWFOT2Mz?= =?utf-8?B?alQ2RHRIdnJpWVFxV3kxNFJveXl2elBXMzk0K2xmQWpvRDF2OG5WaFFwNmQ3?= =?utf-8?B?TXoxOHc4SWo3QktEWjlwUHZzaGRlQlFJQUE1V2RCZHFlUGVCcW1TNG1rVmJ1?= =?utf-8?B?K3dnbHA4QlZXWnlJMkdwNjBrYTVQY0VVSVFvVXllLzRmbGxjb0hLU3Y5c3pz?= =?utf-8?B?VThEcU9MaFRqV0hwRkFxN1Bnd1NBa1dPK1U0cWtUaUNOQ2Q3d0pxQmdIM2g5?= =?utf-8?B?KzRWWXBreVh1VEdNM04rcStjclZGcTJGV05hTWtKNjdwTUorUE4wVDZlRUt2?= =?utf-8?B?UFZTUVE3SE15UzlqZ3pEUHNsMDJCbEVJYUF1bjBrbVlwR2JFS2lPU2NVM2pI?= =?utf-8?B?VlcyVHl2RzR6SVRQK2RFV1dGWGhBQTlNTjlPbkp6UFF6TldBbFkyTmExY1Ny?= =?utf-8?B?UG5kL2pCdVoxT25ic09kb2NpOC9ncmJjaWFLZnFTL0JSekVNZVFCR09OVUpL?= =?utf-8?B?WGZhQWVmZkkrS1J4SUp1bXJGSGpPaEY2dlIvR3UwZUZCL2ErbWpxOXVTaWVP?= =?utf-8?B?STYwNHE3ckQ2U25LSlBGY0NCZ3VYWkhxd0pqVk1oUUpUaFBIMjdwakVNRXAy?= =?utf-8?B?SE5rV3VyVmxkUEx6Umh1WTlBZjRjOWdKRmpyOWxwczNKeHEvalhoM1d0Qisw?= =?utf-8?B?eWxsNkVEZnJOSVQ3bnNyNHQ5WVFObEhPRk1qRjUyaTA2cWxiMFk4VmhmT1NO?= =?utf-8?B?WHp5U25CSFl5K283bVBYemh4cnVKazFLSFNBZlJNL3FhVXVJWlczUTlMM3FP?= =?utf-8?B?bGFNeURMY1NJM24xVWI3QktrLzcyYVNqc1NWL3FnNzkwODQyUXFkT1Z6RG5N?= =?utf-8?B?dlRjUVZwMWs1MWErVXZGMmE2cDFPaUZrNDlUcjhlckhBSXVZdzBQVnRGNUZn?= =?utf-8?B?dVRrV2c1OWRBMDBIazJ6Zyt0N0c3WGRZK2V0S05RUkplVlRIMGxZMExmWlhI?= =?utf-8?B?MlJQS0YxUnUxbGJEL0ZoM3BoVk1rZmJkekZuTlh1SXpDMnZiOE9HOVhnTko3?= =?utf-8?B?MDRNTmh5ZDhOU2wvNDdvWWNNSE52Z2hHQnp0Z0thY2F4c2JzaTV6cjFTbmNW?= =?utf-8?B?ZVBwYWplL08yUEhiZDhkVVpod2gyRlAxVTVucVBJSU5yZ0h3SlRsTTgyc0wy?= =?utf-8?B?OXlDTkU5V2Y0VmVRRldycHlZTGFrZUJWaG9CNHJGZVVIVnhLamN0M05SOXhH?= =?utf-8?B?WXcySEtMaGZoOXcrbExmRU1WYXFDbXo4RVdzMHlLSURLcDVxYzBRd0Z4OFdO?= =?utf-8?B?RTFibWhZWXBsMFIxNTRJLzhHNjRzeGRsVWl0T2kwc040bWxXV1dHNXdYd2hw?= =?utf-8?B?TGkrUDlOejAzYWorUVdFMTZyc2laZU14eEJ5UlJaamdzMlJtQWFKQzFIbUJz?= =?utf-8?B?cm14anVQL1piL3pSZG5oV0RLa1pHMjVrNUFyYnpkaFU1Ukg3Y3V0U0JMajFR?= =?utf-8?B?S2tRVHM3dUxIbWlLd01JaUk2TkJkQ2FhV21yZzlwVTVFWXFpK2VrcFQxYzVI?= =?utf-8?B?ZllVOS9DQVo2RzhSaUNVUUwzSEdQaFlucWtCZ1hvMnhJYkxrOGttekErdnV1?= =?utf-8?B?YjlyVi9zc0JLQkRLaDh1akJKZWtNNlNQNHhmUGc4UjhUUjFtZndGMUdWTkQ0?= =?utf-8?B?N01URGErOVF5MldKYjJKcXlTc1BTZzJHaGIxWWk5YjRZNzdMVkorLzQ5MlRo?= =?utf-8?B?cVVGV2dEQkk1TTN1KzB5dSsyUlNwVWNiUVh5cjJyZVZuWGxNcHlXbDdMdEta?= =?utf-8?B?SUJ0SXBPWHdxMlg5UjFCREdKajZ1NFhPRHNvbm43Q2dFQ3g2Lzk0dnZmaWla?= =?utf-8?B?Qkc3TCtBRFZQWmpwc1RGMnhpdlZyNmh5QTIvbGlFSHh3TmdidXNoSnorbVVY?= =?utf-8?B?ek90cXc5dGN3VC8vYWhaRkI5U3l5amsvaFFWdlVEM21JR1p0TGZBTmxJWHJs?= =?utf-8?B?dEFONmp2bEYxSTAzdndHWW4waUpDcXFIakpuNlFrMGhLYWtCUUw4RTJUS1Av?= =?utf-8?B?cm9VQzF6T29LV05BQmwwaTJXSnE4YU04T3VqS2hCVFIwYUo1b1NUTGJhazdt?= =?utf-8?B?aXc5bXlqbGdvdXhleExmRExGSnhsc25wNjFUWCtsWlE0QlJtam5aeTlLOXJl?= =?utf-8?B?elFOc1dIV2hrNW1tOWh3d3hmUEFMYUZhSks2ek0vZzhnZnF6Y3ZmSWt5eXZQ?= =?utf-8?B?bnhQUmRSQjltemdjUW00VUcrczBtdzBMVjRMVmlZUU13OWlncVNyTkI3ZVhu?= =?utf-8?B?S09WTjJjOGxGZnp4TG90KzRkdWhwRFhEQWRVcktvQ3NGZDZBWGhDM3ZIaDkw?= =?utf-8?Q?pMHHajnPobTgjbx8=3D?= arc-seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Te67IbmCQmxaNa45o3txKdTFCiyzwUpI4/x382+GgQ7jNGlBZ140kP0az9ycMKZpgRDbGLdbgmRv3EWGTe2cGk9RCbSbXDQGCvzl+HXLD6K8Ds6LudC52UoinLqj1dz1K4ZsRs4yUkq4S4+tJFVnYem5SxfCU9lO/DdHgk14IW8NF0jkKwcbXsJ7+pt/i961yoicYFEB8QakZRl3K5xFmoyNOZCawJX8v+mcQWfde207ZwpEmUYm4uzcR9ehWROhjub64oJfPC9jBSwjFHYs1I8jlfWkgyS1iAjficih9ds/239xisYP+TYM76jtjdF4UhGWQQjh1MmlKwpTwP+puA== arc-message-signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=L+sunatBPWcZjNMR4GFrg0QY9RGAKOjJegUBaU7E8UA=; b=I5gqXTsJ+dMPwPw8E8u6tRI7GNc9+wvv8aLJQAEVTKdv/mDDU9T3R21kY3AIAMlQFvcmv3AJWc/wn3nyJiFXzuUSS4xiKWnNQGdoqrjwCP52ncucdFAvbPyB31pMXqarDykE5T5OAxVNRyHIjTrx4t0qkliHPCt9E9IZOgowXa/ech89vQuBjfEjOUxUXw5l6tWtWQ0/hILzqpIXDGVq8jQoS6o4a4n1U6i3S+U0xsc/V/FLEBlsp4DVyvrGNo5Bk/HN/5RfC4/7O0vrA1T00AAENk0mdY+Fm9nQQZdETxOXQ298PjSqLniDX01zuiTaLLyApRZGJQI2Vm0uiqxDZg== arc-authentication-results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cable.comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=cable.comcast.com; arc=none x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authas: Internal x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authsource: BYAPR11MB3702.namprd11.prod.outlook.com x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-network-message-id: b540c4f4-0443-4e65-d66c-08d9d9e8c8a4 x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Jan 2022 18:40:07.0428 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: OuSp3xg8Y5gbsXRK8TqEYiizihAtdtAekpV03OBQYaHXUwhyT51u1HaAU7zX3VLpMQf/RU41Elvjcc7hSZjlvktZGv8Uv7cTcJfEs+x6I2c= x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: MN2PR11MB3870 x-originatororg: cable.comcast.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <56240EF547531247BC39F2388994669A@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWQ X-Proofpoint-GUID: _lj8lXGyAQzLXy8uWwd6Xa4KMuSrPawi X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: _lj8lXGyAQzLXy8uWwd6Xa4KMuSrPawi X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2022-01-17_07,2022-01-14_01,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 18:40:19 -0000 T24gMS8xNy8yMiwgMTE6NDMsICJNaWNoYWVsIFJpY2hhcmRzb24iIDxtY3JAc2FuZGVsbWFuLmNh PiB3cm90ZToNCj4gICAgSWYgd2Ugc2hvdWxkIGNsb2NrIGluIGF0IDQ5OCBwZXJzb25zLCBvciB3 aGF0ZXZlciwgd2hhdCBoYXBwZW5zPw0KPiAgIEl0IHNlZW1zIGxpa2Ugd2Ugc2hvdWxkIGp1c3Qg b3B0IGZvciBjZXJ0YWludHkgdGhhdCB0aGVyZSB3aWxsIGJlIGRhaWx5IHRlc3RpbmcuDQoNCklm IHlvdSBjb21lIHRvIElFVEYtMTEzLCBubyBtYXR0ZXIgaG93IG1hbnkgb2YgeW91ciBjb2xsZWFn dWVzIGF0dGVuZCwgeW91IHNob3VsZCBhbnRpY2lwYXRlIHRoYXQgeW91IG11c3QgdGVzdCBkYWls eS4gVGVzdGluZyB3aWxsIGJlIHByb3ZpZGVkIG9uLXNpdGUgYW5kIGZyZWUgb2YgY2hhcmdlLg0K DQpKTA0KDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Jan 17 11:11:03 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2030A3A10AA for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:11:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sandelman.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CqSYU9e_-kXA for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D74AF3A10A5 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19FF938C71; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 14:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id QTEXIYYiACp8; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 14:17:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41B138C6E; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 14:17:06 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sandelman.ca; s=mail; t=1642447026; bh=KENyhpald9MQWluW1mW4MTnuFCjkN/3fHNkKAWAMLsA=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=Tfi0M3pHx51mEc9lKoh2qaFFwYQvWgzV33J3b/VdweZPMypL6giQp9HB2ZVcF5HKf bJV8FbCeNXOEwH+vUEPniAhUo9RnRgi2gOoFgdCax7XUKF5bkBXY7SovHFKOpY3LRA r2VHup2fbmo7SB6g7v/nkOOcOlL2YxdPe2mJ3sPnnzW9IunW7rMc9Yvp187/t7oZEE H7HIigcnf10jia9cvs+Tfb5B7hRDkxOGbX7OQ5f9Tn44yRDJ9err/9M3g9rW4+bcr8 3UuVcc6p3l/F1ouEusagbYnm0cHomt2b8Oq4aYFDCgVdwvG2+E950wbgHGm/hegDzD +y5e0JQQjAppg== Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4080B6BE; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 14:10:51 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Livingood\, Jason" , "manycouches\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <9af600f9-0c76-5145-6eb5-34fc065ce25f@gmail.com> <381712AE-AEA1-42D1-BEA8-86B0553B3BC3@cable.comcast.com> <16236.1642437804@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Vienna - daily PCR testing, or no? X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:11:01 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Livingood, Jason wrote: > On 1/17/22, 11:43, "Michael Richardson" wrote: >> If we should clock in at 498 persons, or whatever, what happens? It >> seems like we should just opt for certainty that there will be daily >> testing. > If you come to IETF-113, no matter how many of your colleagues attend, > you should anticipate that you must test daily. Testing will be > provided on-site and free of charge. That's cool. So I wonder if the results will be available in a form that will satisfy the airlines. Or rather, I wonder if we can arrange for that :-) =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iPMEAQEKAB0WIQSk7ZHEG9TCGBNASfm/sjw/rPYc8wUCYeW/OwAKCRC/sjw/rPYc 8yz6Bf0cvl6eCt6zKLVJZBBQFBQwoOVphf82EVKB7BTsGIYX3fUWZdI+2cqyxB8j PbZCq8EtzbMJUJjXRnpbVNkGaYULtgq8UrxKdMgpN33Wn9Dpq4snHdDInDs8eLVR E4OE/qpfN7EOsCsFy5eRsGYzaS/N1ItWww5bRG7QHtU+TL2Sd6n5aua2cSFy7+XX iGWOV+zM/kwOIBgFBmyKkejElmSAyBlF2Nx5Ht3qCQQDGVPfeGCRph/tB8ltzIgS 1LXxa10= =zXts -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Jan 17 11:13:51 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425683A0DA1; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:13:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w3QbxaaJhX7B; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:13:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E55973A10B3; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1n9XRn-000FfQ-9R; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 14:13:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 14:13:36 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Vittorio Bertola , manycouches@ietf.org cc: shmoo-chairs@ietf.org Message-ID: <80027BD1CE22FD6B314BAD5D@PSB> In-Reply-To: <807739550.23977.1642439976038@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> References: <807739550.23977.1642439976038@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:13:50 -0000 --On Monday, January 17, 2022 18:19 +0100 Vittorio Bertola wrote: >... > I think you are asking for certainties that cannot be > provided. Even if someone had a clear answer now, that answer > might change tomorrow, or one minute before you step into the > meeting venue after travelling there, because of reasons and > authorities that are outside of the IETF's control. >=20 > The only possible answer to all your questions is: if you are > not willing to take risks or bear with uncertainties, do not > even consider attending in person. Vittorio and others have said essentially the above several times (each) to, AFAICT, no effect. In addition, to partially borrow a comment from =C3=89ric Vyncke's "No Objection" comment = on the charter, while many of us may be interested, I doubt that the IETF as a whole has significant expertise in matters of immunology, epidemiology, or public health (much less COVID-specific expertise). Even if we had such knowledge it is of only marginal value unless various political actors can be counted on to act both rationally and predictably. There is also an area in which I think we have even less expertise: accurately predicting the future events or policies over which we have no control and doing so early enough to make a difference. Both the existing and new charters are very clear that this WG is supposed to be about "high-level principles, not detailed operational plans". At this stage, discussions of the arrangements and procedures for Vienna are certainly the latter. If if it is desired, can we create a separate mailing list for discussions of national and international COVID statistics, issues, technologies, predictions, etc., but start treating starting threads on those subject on this list as sufficiently outside the IETF's expertise and that provision of the charter to be disruptive? Also, I wonder if it would be appropriate to create a list for discussion of activities in Vienna (by definition, none of them high-level principles), possibly by opening IETF113-attendees early and letting people subscribe without committing themselves to attend? Some of us really would like to concentrate on those high-level principles and these other discussions are creating noise that impedes the effort. =20 thanks, john From nobody Mon Jan 17 11:22:51 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietf.org Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA8E03A1122; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:22:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alvaro Retana via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: shmoo-chairs@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.42.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Alvaro Retana Message-ID: <164244736311.6146.15218657002993104832@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 11:22:43 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Alvaro Retana's Yes on charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:22:44 -0000 Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-shmoo/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (1) The "publication of one or more BCPs" fulfills all the items, except the second one. For consistency, please add something similar to the second item. Alternatively, include a single statement (not specific to any item) along the lines of "The work of this WG is expected to be fulfilled with the publication of one or more BCPs." (2) Milestones should be included. From nobody Mon Jan 17 12:20:43 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB9A3A13CC for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 12:20:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.042 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.042 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PUGFFeTOpYdN for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 12:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0944E3A13B5 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 12:20:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HKKaGZ024835 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 21:20:36 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 204B4208502 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 21:20:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F672084C1 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 21:20:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.11] ([10.14.0.11]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20HKKZ9s023439 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 21:20:35 +0100 Message-ID: <246228bc-1086-4e37-bb57-b4b70e2cdfc5@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 21:20:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <807739550.23977.1642439976038@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <80027BD1CE22FD6B314BAD5D@PSB> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <80027BD1CE22FD6B314BAD5D@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 20:20:42 -0000 Le 17/01/2022 à 20:13, John C Klensin a écrit : > > > --On Monday, January 17, 2022 18:19 +0100 Vittorio Bertola > wrote: > >> ... I think you are asking for certainties that cannot be provided. >> Even if someone had a clear answer now, that answer might change >> tomorrow, or one minute before you step into the meeting venue >> after travelling there, because of reasons and authorities that are >> outside of the IETF's control. >> >> The only possible answer to all your questions is: if you are not >> willing to take risks or bear with uncertainties, do not even >> consider attending in person. > > Vittorio and others have said essentially the above several times > (each) to, AFAICT, no effect. In addition, to partially borrow a > comment from Éric Vyncke's "No Objection" comment on the charter, > while many of us may be interested, I doubt that the IETF as a whole > has significant expertise in matters of immunology, epidemiology, or > public health (much less COVID-specific expertise). Even if we had > such knowledge it is of only marginal value unless various political > actors can be counted on to act both rationally and predictably. > There is also an area in which I think we have even less expertise: > accurately predicting the future events or policies over which we > have no control and doing so early enough to make a difference. > > Both the existing and new charters are very clear that this WG is > supposed to be about "high-level principles, not detailed > operational plans". At this stage, discussions of the arrangements > and procedures for Vienna are certainly the latter. If if it is > desired, can we create a separate mailing list for discussions of > national and international COVID statistics, issues, technologies, > predictions, etc., but start treating starting threads on those > subject on this list as sufficiently outside the IETF's expertise and > that provision of the charter to be disruptive? Also, I wonder if it > would be appropriate to create a list for discussion of activities in > Vienna (by definition, none of them high-level principles), possibly > by opening IETF113-attendees early and letting people subscribe > without committing themselves to attend? I agree with the suggestion. An IETF list for covid related topics could be beneficial of reducing the covid noise on other IETF lists, like in WGs. There are other similar specific lists at IETF that dont have WGs, like the ietf-runners, and others. Also, an IETF list on which people could plan whether or not or how to attend an in-person meeting, before being already registered (the attendees list), can be helpful. I would subscribe to such a list and move away from here (shmoo). Alex > > Some of us really would like to concentrate on those high-level > principles and these other discussions are creating noise that > impedes the effort. > > thanks, john > > > > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Mon Jan 17 16:16:17 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FE843A064A for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:16:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1ukjsaYbQQAi for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:16:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21E423A05F8 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 16:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1n9cAQ-000GZ9-6Y; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:16:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 19:15:59 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Alexandre Petrescu , manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <70126db3-61e3-0922-8fbb-ed1eae8cf078@gmail.com> References: <70126db3-61e3-0922-8fbb-ed1eae8cf078@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] FFP2, FFP3 and N95 masks have versions with valves - they ate likely to not protect the others X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 00:16:15 -0000 Alex, Top post. I'm going to try to respond to what I think are your main questions but after this note I going to drop out of these threads and try to stay out because I just don't think they are helpful to short-term IETF decision-making. Having worked in emergency services many years ago and then spent a decade on in the health area... Yes, most national standards for face masks (as distinct from, for example, dangerous gases) are primarily about protecting the wearer from inhaling various types of particles. In some countries, those standards have been expanded or modified for use in health care settings (among other things because many viruses are smaller than 2.5 . In some others, there are separate testing regimes or certifications for masks for use in health care settings. In yet others, "suitable for health care settings" becomes an endorsement onto one of the other certification codes. But, again, those national standards are never quite the same -- higher standards for some things, lower for others. Second, your inference about valves is correct. Because most of these mask standards started out trying to protect the wearer, many of them, especially those that are efficient enough filters to make breathing require extra effort have exhalation valves that are tested to not let anything in but with no concern about what goes out. Countries whose health authorities have written COVID mask rules have generally prohibited ones with unmodified valves from the beginning. IIR, so has WHO. I understand it is possible to modify some values to make them mostly exhalation leakproof so that restriction may change or be changing. One thing that has not come up in this discussion is that many or most of the national standards for the use of face masks that get into the FFP2 or N95 range also involve fit requirements because, if they don't fit properly and form good seals, the efficacy of the masks drops significantly. Should a country or venue specify a fitting requirement along with a mask type, those of us with most varieties of facial hair are out of luck unless we were willing to get rid of it. That would be a whole new form of the IETF accidentally creating and enforcing discriminatory policies about who can attend f2f meetings. It would be within scope, as I understand it to make a policy about that but I really, really, hope we don't go there unless we are willing to accept, and preferably subsidize positive-pressure PAPR-type devices (and many of them don't offer much protection to anyone but the wearer). To answer a question from another note, in the US, any mask that conforms to N99 will meet a requirement for N95. From some quick reading, that is also the case for FFP3 and FFP2, but I have made no attempt to read the spec and cannot attest to that. The difficulty is that one really needs to understand these issue and read the specs, not just have good intuitions about problems one should think about (and yours are, IMO, _very_ good). Reading those specs and understanding their implications requires engineering background very different from that required to design a computer network. So, again, I think it is entirely reasonable for the IETF to tell the LLC that there should be mask requirements suitable to the environment in which the meeting will be held and equally reasonable (although almost certainly unnecessary) to remind them that, if a country or venue requires a mask that is certified to meet a particular national standard, it may not be possible to obtain those masks in a far-away location (at least at plausible cost). But in terms of moving toward an IETF COVID-19 protocol, that is where we need to stop, If the LLC were interested in my advice, it would be to be sure they understand all of these issues (including the ones you are asking about) and that, if they might not, it may be time to start thinking about a consultant or consulting firm with the right sorts of knowledge (ideally with costs shared with other organizations who face similar problems). What any of us who are not expert in the fields _and_ following the relevant scientific and engineering literature closely are reading is just not good enough to plan for the end of this week, much less two months away. I will, however make one prediction about which I feel very confident: we will not see a harmonized international standard for readily portable filtering devices, ones that are designed to protect those around the wearer as well as the wearer, between now and March or at any time in 2022. It is even less likely than uniform international agreements about which types of vaccines are accepted by a particular country. best, john --On Monday, January 17, 2022 19:32 +0100 Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > One would like to know that FFP2, FFP3 and N95 denominations > of masks, and probably others similar, have been conceived > before covid. They are very much designed to protect the > wearer under certain work conditions, including hospitals, but > mainly others such as where there are various forms of dust. > Also protect the cyclist against pollutants from automobile > engines. > > Some of these masks have valves - a 1cm round. These valves > serve to > exhale in an easier way. I dont know the denomination for > those with > valve, but I know there are FFP2s denominated FFP2, and that > have valves > too. There are also FFP2s, 3s, N95s without valves. > > I think - I am almost certain - that these masks with valve > allow air to > be exhaled towards the outside of the mask. > > This kind of protection still protects the wearer a lot, but > if the > wearer has virus then this virus is very much likely to go > outside the > mask towards the others. > > If it is thought the reverse - the valves dont exhale viruses > - then I > stand corrected. Until then I think there is a > misunderstanding in > thinking FFP2 with valve protects the others. > > To that end, it would help for the IETF covid protocol to > recommend the > use of masks of a certain type, but certainly the masks > _without_ valve. > > Alex > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Mon Jan 17 17:22:22 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30DBF3A0D9D for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:22:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iiwZV4m3cs-N for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 806573A0D9A for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 17:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85DD058C4AF; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:22:07 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 7BB5E4EA3BB; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:22:07 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:22:07 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: John C Klensin Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: References: <70126db3-61e3-0922-8fbb-ed1eae8cf078@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] FFP2, FFP3 and N95 masks have versions with valves - they ate likely to not protect the others X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 01:22:20 -0000 UAL writes: All travelers age 2 and older are required to wear a face mask with no vents or openings that fully covers their nose and mouth So those vented masks you bought from home depot certainly have been an issues on airplanes in the past (otherwise a behemot like UAL would not update their web page). I think there is no formalized code-abbreviation for those non-vented masks (N95-non-vented or the like), and seemingly the planet has managed to deal with this it during covid, Only for engineers the lack of proper classification is irritating. I for once happened to use FFP2 masks with an external box with battery, motor and an FFP2 class particle filter connected through a hose to the mask, so that i wouldn't have to breath in my own exhaust under the mask, but get fresh, filtered air pumped into the mask. I had some trouble of getting through airports into airplanes with that because it can be mistaken for such an exhaust-vented mask, so i now i only put it on once i am sitting in my longhaul flight. Looks stupid, but i highly recommend it. Cheers Toerless On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 07:15:59PM -0500, John C Klensin wrote: > Alex, > > Top post. I'm going to try to respond to what I think are your > main questions but after this note I going to drop out of these > threads and try to stay out because I just don't think they are > helpful to short-term IETF decision-making. > > Having worked in emergency services many years ago and then > spent a decade on in the health area... > > Yes, most national standards for face masks (as distinct from, > for example, dangerous gases) are primarily about protecting the > wearer from inhaling various types of particles. In some > countries, those standards have been expanded or modified for > use in health care settings (among other things because many > viruses are smaller than 2.5 . In some others, there are > separate testing regimes or certifications for masks for use in > health care settings. In yet others, "suitable for health care > settings" becomes an endorsement onto one of the other > certification codes. But, again, those national standards are > never quite the same -- higher standards for some things, lower > for others. > > Second, your inference about valves is correct. Because most of > these mask standards started out trying to protect the wearer, > many of them, especially those that are efficient enough filters > to make breathing require extra effort have exhalation valves > that are tested to not let anything in but with no concern about > what goes out. Countries whose health authorities have written > COVID mask rules have generally prohibited ones with unmodified > valves from the beginning. IIR, so has WHO. I understand it is > possible to modify some values to make them mostly exhalation > leakproof so that restriction may change or be changing. > > One thing that has not come up in this discussion is that many > or most of the national standards for the use of face masks that > get into the FFP2 or N95 range also involve fit requirements > because, if they don't fit properly and form good seals, the > efficacy of the masks drops significantly. Should a country or > venue specify a fitting requirement along with a mask type, > those of us with most varieties of facial hair are out of luck > unless we were willing to get rid of it. That would be a whole > new form of the IETF accidentally creating and enforcing > discriminatory policies about who can attend f2f meetings. It > would be within scope, as I understand it to make a policy about > that but I really, really, hope we don't go there unless we are > willing to accept, and preferably subsidize positive-pressure > PAPR-type devices (and many of them don't offer much protection > to anyone but the wearer). > > > To answer a question from another note, in the US, any mask that > conforms to N99 will meet a requirement for N95. From some > quick reading, that is also the case for FFP3 and FFP2, but I > have made no attempt to read the spec and cannot attest to that. > > The difficulty is that one really needs to understand these > issue and read the specs, not just have good intuitions about > problems one should think about (and yours are, IMO, _very_ > good). Reading those specs and understanding their implications > requires engineering background very different from that > required to design a computer network. > > So, again, I think it is entirely reasonable for the IETF to > tell the LLC that there should be mask requirements suitable to > the environment in which the meeting will be held and equally > reasonable (although almost certainly unnecessary) to remind > them that, if a country or venue requires a mask that is > certified to meet a particular national standard, it may not be > possible to obtain those masks in a far-away location (at least > at plausible cost). But in terms of moving toward an IETF > COVID-19 protocol, that is where we need to stop, If the LLC > were interested in my advice, it would be to be sure they > understand all of these issues (including the ones you are > asking about) and that, if they might not, it may be time to > start thinking about a consultant or consulting firm with the > right sorts of knowledge (ideally with costs shared with other > organizations who face similar problems). What any of us who > are not expert in the fields _and_ following the relevant > scientific and engineering literature closely are reading is > just not good enough to plan for the end of this week, much less > two months away. > > I will, however make one prediction about which I feel very > confident: we will not see a harmonized international standard > for readily portable filtering devices, ones that are designed > to protect those around the wearer as well as the wearer, > between now and March or at any time in 2022. It is even less > likely than uniform international agreements about which types > of vaccines are accepted by a particular country. > > best, > john > > > --On Monday, January 17, 2022 19:32 +0100 Alexandre Petrescu > wrote: > > > One would like to know that FFP2, FFP3 and N95 denominations > > of masks, and probably others similar, have been conceived > > before covid. They are very much designed to protect the > > wearer under certain work conditions, including hospitals, but > > mainly others such as where there are various forms of dust. > > Also protect the cyclist against pollutants from automobile > > engines. > > > > Some of these masks have valves - a 1cm round. These valves > > serve to > > exhale in an easier way. I dont know the denomination for > > those with > > valve, but I know there are FFP2s denominated FFP2, and that > > have valves > > too. There are also FFP2s, 3s, N95s without valves. > > > > I think - I am almost certain - that these masks with valve > > allow air to > > be exhaled towards the outside of the mask. > > > > This kind of protection still protects the wearer a lot, but > > if the > > wearer has virus then this virus is very much likely to go > > outside the > > mask towards the others. > > > > If it is thought the reverse - the valves dont exhale viruses > > - then I > > stand corrected. Until then I think there is a > > misunderstanding in > > thinking FFP2 with valve protects the others. > > > > To that end, it would help for the IETF covid protocol to > > recommend the > > use of masks of a certain type, but certainly the masks > > _without_ valve. > > > > Alex > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Manycouches mailing list > > Manycouches@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon Jan 17 20:04:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E83AB3A0B1E for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 20:04:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id syUgb_QfCdaK for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 20:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62a.google.com (mail-pl1-x62a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79CE73A0B1C for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 20:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62a.google.com with SMTP id c6so14765909plh.6 for ; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 20:04:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:in-reply-to :date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=dictiBeaXMPwaZNGIxuUA9FbWRZumaFoyjG7Ffh9XZk=; b=Wiz8OncGwK6j/W2BPFG67MGD1y+QDLmmpNF52LdBTqUOB55d9owpaiswNox8UY/9fP rpQYUoz0QKwkZSWBh5evZEzPio1qMQKzdiyJai6s88ACkWx5pesljm0U1mud8q74S/J8 bEkU+XQwg5WQwx2bUx6pKEaytNhzVA/ubSdXEkW5pjTUmKJ25DEmzihZXrp7UveHh5O6 mavQwZuqw81hKjVVEnoJhYi2cFSSCPDU4rKcCmUPajIENm5ng8GCP1vZ+vWZJH2FlKem 8aERO1jLhwTRrTl2x6M/way2pA4m84vel9uUAeY1eNztMwVwPGn1WCI0TMSaHGjsDfH1 M92g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=dictiBeaXMPwaZNGIxuUA9FbWRZumaFoyjG7Ffh9XZk=; b=Opl83P3Sa4j5jm/wkvuslYYp6Fad0knScr40g/c3uxYd8vxbLDABMInK+GKhmT5usK k90Oq2QPlm3ItweIqZVcvo+PyIjw38Dx3bczmYID6Bk7JGHt5UNv4GVs2ZKQvwyt539u zL0QY/ceB61oLU+vLw4Z4PuiwhZee6Ubc4tjNomGJu0wIqWq/3GPC1ScwKfdfnGDou0/ ONdcqQk47/14cmSQit22G9Uu+38ipWLoWoE7L/XCE6pBDdVNruoa0sT/1RX6voga06RY mE1+ZmnB7F4HLZAIKwBmAXR+7dhVEK6eC+gRFugFyLZZ5H3Sb2LqbVpaq0KLPiw5p4eW Nmcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531YaL+NWLfxsv6OXzVVkqs3m55am6ZAtgeMlNDufRcjID+Foymw MsZtiEoFjTxkXEWNekA4Igg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxCDuX2GwQDEjmyZd72OoHWLYNXJ/kn3SqwHEA9oSzoRIFVZaYNqYQ65OCUt8tc1pmlVSZS7w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1c11:: with SMTP id oc17mr9205899pjb.128.1642478680893; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 20:04:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:8801:d008:8c00:21fa:7cd1:571c:ecac]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l12sm16255178pfc.181.2022.01.17.20.04.40 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 17 Jan 2022 20:04:40 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker X-Google-Original-From: Fred Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 20:04:39 -0800 Cc: manycouches@ietf.org Message-Id: References: To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19C63) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_cha?= =?utf-8?q?rter-ietf-shmoo-01-00=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 04:04:44 -0000 Sent using a machine that autocorrects in interesting ways... > On Jan 17, 2022, at 6:26 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >=20 > the invitation offers guarantees of no spread, I=E2=80=99m not sure what a =E2=80=9Cguarantee of no spread=E2=80=9D would e= ntail. To guarantee that nothing can be passed from human to human, one woul= d have to guarantee that humans have no opportunity to interact in any way. I= f it=E2=80=99s a guarantee in any common sense, it would mean that if the vi= rus is spread at all in any way, someone pays someone else some money or oth= erwise is in default. This refrain is beginning to sound a little bogus=E2=80=A6= From nobody Mon Jan 17 21:48:01 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FB853A12E1; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 21:47:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kbcLMIYMvwi1; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 21:47:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E2C93A12DC; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 21:47:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EB6358C4AF; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 06:47:43 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 422664EA3BF; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 06:47:43 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 06:47:43 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: John C Klensin Cc: Vittorio Bertola , manycouches@ietf.org, shmoo-chairs@ietf.org Message-ID: References: <807739550.23977.1642439976038@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <80027BD1CE22FD6B314BAD5D@PSB> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <80027BD1CE22FD6B314BAD5D@PSB> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 05:47:56 -0000 On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 02:13:36PM -0500, John C Klensin wrote: > Both the existing and new charters are very clear that this WG > is supposed to be about "high-level principles, not detailed > operational plans". At this stage, discussions of the > arrangements and procedures for Vienna are certainly the latter. > If if it is desired, can we create a separate mailing list for > discussions of national and international COVID statistics, > issues, technologies, predictions, etc., but start treating > starting threads on those subject on this list as sufficiently > outside the IETF's expertise and that provision of the charter > to be disruptive? Also, I wonder if it would be appropriate to > create a list for discussion of activities in Vienna (by > definition, none of them high-level principles), possibly by > opening IETF113-attendees early and letting people subscribe > without committing themselves to attend? I think an early opened ietf113-attendees list would suffice for all those discussion for now (see below) - we can think of creating yet another list later when we've figured out how to make it more useful. Maybe repeat the ask on ietf@ietf.org, i am all for it. > Some of us really would like to concentrate on those high-level > principles and these other discussions are creating noise that > impedes the effort. One of the high level principles that ties this all together is that we should within the community try to establish better ways to disseminate the relevant information required to enable better (hybrid) meetings including all the aspects of travel logistics. Right now the only mechanisms we have is to hope for LLC to listen to complaints and/or attendees helping other attendees on the ietf attendees list. There is for example no mandatory to be maintained FAQ that could in a structured and current (updated) way reflect all the nitty gritty that today attendees have to search long through mailing lists. Including stuff like masks or the like. Not sure if giving recommendations for such better documentation/ review processes for such information would be in charter of manycouches. Cheers Toerless > thanks, > john > > > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon Jan 17 22:49:29 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 582593A090F; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 22:49:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hhXRHxCOHeOA; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 22:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 730563A090C; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 22:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:791f:78f7:c222:cefe]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C27111D2670; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 08:48:44 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1642488525; bh=TuRFUmxcgqUph8iejxsOpVjwFg7CrKfw6RHUHiRJnLs=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To; b=gxPGAq1l/D8tOcQ69oIH7eqUd0gpqFqDOgvy0ibpzAM4IsUmYlJqwMPwjFkMIMrvj i47BaqF8UVC/MnlDav4FDNZp3SnH1uQ+wr6OQuKTgTEXjjdrbLb9PVYmht+VtRO++g bjaJh8WFwPQ5mnOu9/00LPRL3q9yPn6kBUyFetFk= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-5B799034-79A2-435C-9222-F6ECCE911D9C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Lars Eggert Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 08:48:42 +0200 Message-Id: <40890F80-87FA-4EF2-ADFA-68C823826C71@eggert.org> References: Cc: John C Klensin , manycouches@ietf.org, shmoo-chairs@ietf.org, Vittorio Bertola In-Reply-To: To: Toerless Eckert X-MailScanner-ID: C27111D2670.A3058 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 06:49:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail-5B799034-79A2-435C-9222-F6ECCE911D9C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/covid-related-requirements/ -- Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > On Jan 18, 2022, at 07:48, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > There is for example no mandatory to be maintained FAQ that could > in a structured and current (updated) way reflect all the nitty > gritty that today attendees have to search long through mailing lists. > Including stuff like masks or the like. --Apple-Mail-5B799034-79A2-435C-9222-F6ECCE911D9C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/covid-related-requirements/

-- 
Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos.

On Jan 18, 2022, at 07:48, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

There is for example no mandatory to be maintained FAQ that could
in a structured and current (updated) way reflect all the nitty
gritty that today attendees have to search long through  mailing lists.
Including stuff like masks or the like.
--Apple-Mail-5B799034-79A2-435C-9222-F6ECCE911D9C-- From nobody Mon Jan 17 22:59:50 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 212243A09FE; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 22:59:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pAD1HwcuLtro; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 22:59:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B290A3A09F7; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 22:59:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9958058C4AF; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 07:59:36 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 86C304EA3C0; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 07:59:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 07:59:36 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Lars Eggert Cc: John C Klensin , manycouches@ietf.org, shmoo-chairs@ietf.org, Vittorio Bertola Message-ID: References: <40890F80-87FA-4EF2-ADFA-68C823826C71@eggert.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40890F80-87FA-4EF2-ADFA-68C823826C71@eggert.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 06:59:49 -0000 On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 08:48:42AM +0200, Lars Eggert wrote: > https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/covid-related-requirements/ I think it would have been more respectful to the affected IETF community members, if the text would have included some explicit statement (including justification) that IETF113 is knowingly relocated to a place that excludes a large percentage of candidate in-person participants, because they can not reasonably meet the vaccination requirements. An apology in the text would not be wrong either. In comparison: If we would have any other inclusiveness discussion, an answer like "oh, this is inclusive of 70%" would ever suffice. Cheers Toerless > -- > Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > > > On Jan 18, 2022, at 07:48, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > There is for example no mandatory to be maintained FAQ that could > > in a structured and current (updated) way reflect all the nitty > > gritty that today attendees have to search long through mailing lists. > > Including stuff like masks or the like. -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon Jan 17 23:13:15 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3538C3A0B01; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 23:13:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Feor9rLN83Up; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 23:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAA603A0AFF; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 23:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:791f:78f7:c222:cefe]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A8B801D2670; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:13:02 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1642489982; bh=12wSLbWwto4/e/fJQQKdJMpvtIARYHPHjM0qSQOCk0s=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To; b=eeb1jGazfx0NWBqQ6qKXpLO4+aME+ko1edSuJsAT6xQR9kl42w8W2NhAAp8asz1ro SPMZQCO4z6F3M9hZoQZh2Ll464NMlmN8T0xusWQ1uEgdKnvdFVLSUoRio3sRIXqrJQ qUBAJuSC5DLy1eHzHvEDkj++Ssy3qkmCdsoEWhtU= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Lars Eggert Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:13:02 +0200 Message-Id: <6B0C8618-2BC1-4F4C-91A7-5CB86A14E382@eggert.org> References: Cc: John C Klensin , Vittorio Bertola , shmoo-chairs@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: Toerless Eckert X-MailScanner-ID: A8B801D2670.A4785 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 07:13:14 -0000 Hi, Jay (who is on vacation) can comment on details, but my recollection is that= when the decision for Vienna was made, Austria accepted a broader range of v= accines than they do now. (I think Austria changed their rules on Dec 27.) We actually tried our best to identify a location that would allow for broad= attendance (among other requirements). And then that location changed its r= ules. We can certainly mention this on the page, but I disagree that there i= s anything that the LLC or the secretariat need to apologize for. Thanks, Lars --=20 Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > On Jan 18, 2022, at 09:00, Toerless Eckert wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 08:48:42AM +0200, Lars Eggert wrote: >> https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/covid-related-requirements/ >=20 > I think it would have been more respectful to the affected IETF community > members, if the text would have included some explicit statement > (including justification) that IETF113 is knowingly relocated to a place > that excludes a large percentage of candidate in-person participants, > because they can not reasonably meet the vaccination requirements. An > apology in the text would not be wrong either. >=20 > In comparison: If we would have any other inclusiveness discussion, an ans= wer > like "oh, this is inclusive of 70%" would ever suffice. >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 >> --=20 >> Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. >>=20 >>>> On Jan 18, 2022, at 07:48, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>=20 >>> There is for example no mandatory to be maintained FAQ that could >>> in a structured and current (updated) way reflect all the nitty >>> gritty that today attendees have to search long through mailing lists. >>> Including stuff like masks or the like. >=20 > --=20 > --- > tte@cs.fau.de >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Mon Jan 17 23:31:25 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 199F63A0E0B; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 23:31:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xxboWhreyzou; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 23:31:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 502313A0E09; Mon, 17 Jan 2022 23:31:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0BD158C4AF; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 08:31:12 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 8C8554EA3C1; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 08:31:12 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 08:31:12 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Lars Eggert Cc: John C Klensin , Vittorio Bertola , shmoo-chairs@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: References: <6B0C8618-2BC1-4F4C-91A7-5CB86A14E382@eggert.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <6B0C8618-2BC1-4F4C-91A7-5CB86A14E382@eggert.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 07:31:24 -0000 On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 09:13:02AM +0200, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > Jay (who is on vacation) can comment on details, but my recollection is that when the decision for Vienna was made, Austria accepted a broader range of vaccines than they do now. (I think Austria changed their rules on Dec 27.) > > We actually tried our best to identify a location that would allow for broad attendance (among other requirements). And then that location changed its rules. We can certainly mention this on the page. That would be good. Thank you. >, but I disagree that there is anything that the LLC or the secretariat need to apologize for. I think it is worth an apology if members of the community are disadvanted. But to me apologizing does not mean that one has made a mistake, it can also just acknowledges the situation and shows respect to those affected. I for once think the team has done the best that was possible under the circumstances in the selection of the venue. On the other hand, it seems to be common practice that executives of US based companies are never allowed to apologize by their lawyers for fear of this often being judged to be an admission of guilt in at least a civil lawsuits. So go figure when or why apologies are appropriate ;-)) Cheers Toerless > > Thanks, > Lars > -- > Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > > > On Jan 18, 2022, at 09:00, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 08:48:42AM +0200, Lars Eggert wrote: > >> https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/covid-related-requirements/ > > > > I think it would have been more respectful to the affected IETF community > > members, if the text would have included some explicit statement > > (including justification) that IETF113 is knowingly relocated to a place > > that excludes a large percentage of candidate in-person participants, > > because they can not reasonably meet the vaccination requirements. An > > apology in the text would not be wrong either. > > > > In comparison: If we would have any other inclusiveness discussion, an answer > > like "oh, this is inclusive of 70%" would ever suffice. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > >> -- > >> Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > >> > >>>> On Jan 18, 2022, at 07:48, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >>> > >>> There is for example no mandatory to be maintained FAQ that could > >>> in a structured and current (updated) way reflect all the nitty > >>> gritty that today attendees have to search long through mailing lists. > >>> Including stuff like masks or the like. > > > > -- > > --- > > tte@cs.fau.de > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Manycouches mailing list > > Manycouches@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Tue Jan 18 01:52:00 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC3313A14BB for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 01:51:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sL4P2iEp1rcm for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 01:51:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 614873A14BA for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 01:51:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20I9pqTq033650; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:51:52 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 589CF2030F8; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:51:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EAF72030C6; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:51:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.13.174] ([10.14.13.174]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20I9pq2C029461; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:51:52 +0100 Message-ID: <9c92993e-0a91-e8d2-bae5-d57292941b49@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:51:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: Fred Baker Cc: manycouches@ietf.org References: From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_cha?= =?utf-8?q?rter-ietf-shmoo-01-00=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:51:59 -0000 Le 18/01/2022 à 05:04, Fred Baker a écrit : > > > Sent using a machine that autocorrects in interesting ways... > >> On Jan 17, 2022, at 6:26 AM, Alexandre Petrescu >> wrote: >> >> the invitation offers guarantees of no spread, > > I’m not sure what a “guarantee of no spread” would entail. To > guarantee that nothing can be passed from human to human, one would > have to guarantee that humans have no opportunity to interact in any > way. No, I did certainly not mean to remove all interactions! There should be protection, but the devil is in the detail of the protection. > If it’s a guarantee in any common sense, it would mean that if the > virus is spread at all in any way, someone pays someone else some > money or otherwise is in default. I see. No, I did not mean to invent a concept of 'fine' (to fine somebody) for covid spread. Maybe the word 'guarantee' is not appropriate. Maybe better would be a 'promise'. The 'promise' protocol would be trying reassure someone that participating to the meeting does not spread the virus, to the best of one's effort. A 'pledge' maybe. > This refrain is beginning to sound a little bogus… Sorry if I keep sounding as a broken disk: normal spiral looping back to beginning instead of advancing. However, let me try to clarify: a guarantee would be 'best effort', promise. A first experiment would try an in-person component with a particular covid protocol. This would involve extensive testing; the protocol would promote personal interactions using certain protections. The protocol would not prevent personal interactions, which are the main goal of the in-person component. If the testing at the end of the meeting shows entirely negative results, and provided that all were tested extensively, then it can be deduced that repeating the same protocol at the next IETF in-person meeting would promise the same encouraging results. That is the promise. Such test was never tried at IGF and should not be claimed as such, because there was no extensive testing, but voluntary-based testing. Testing just some from time to time is not enough. If the first experiment of in-person component issues still a positive test at the end (i.e. some people catched or transmitted covid), then the protocol should be modified for the next time. A few iterations might lead to more confidence to meet in-person. It would be a better 'promise'. On another hand, a non-guarantee, or a lack of guarantee, is the entire movement of the responsibility towards another organisation (e.g. the Vienna authority, or the Hilton authority in this case) who are less aware of IETF. Hopefully I have helped clarify my text a little out of being bogus. Alex From nobody Tue Jan 18 01:59:53 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC663A14F6 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 01:59:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4rjcGfCHDiLE for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 01:59:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7B223A14F5 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 01:59:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20I9xiaL031300 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:59:44 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 3643220311E for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:59:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CEE32030EF for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:59:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.13.174] ([10.14.13.174]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20I9xhE0003456 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:59:44 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:59:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <807739550.23977.1642439976038@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <80027BD1CE22FD6B314BAD5D@PSB> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:59:52 -0000 Le 18/01/2022 à 06:47, Toerless Eckert a écrit : > On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 02:13:36PM -0500, John C Klensin wrote: >> Both the existing and new charters are very clear that this WG is >> supposed to be about "high-level principles, not detailed >> operational plans". At this stage, discussions of the >> arrangements and procedures for Vienna are certainly the latter. If >> if it is desired, can we create a separate mailing list for >> discussions of national and international COVID statistics, issues, >> technologies, predictions, etc., but start treating starting >> threads on those subject on this list as sufficiently outside the >> IETF's expertise and that provision of the charter to be >> disruptive? Also, I wonder if it would be appropriate to create a >> list for discussion of activities in Vienna (by definition, none of >> them high-level principles), possibly by opening IETF113-attendees >> early and letting people subscribe without committing themselves to >> attend? > > I think an early opened ietf113-attendees But one might subsccribe without being an attendee? I mean one might like to become an attendee but might then decide to not attend. One might register to IETF, hotel and flight and still have to cancel in the day of departure because of a positive test. Maybe a 'ietf-covid' list? > list would suffice for all those discussion for now (see below) - we > can think of creating yet another list later when we've figured out > how to make it more useful. > > Maybe repeat the ask on ietf@ietf.org, i am all for it. For my part, I also thought about ietf@ietf. However there is an enormous other number of topics on that list. And I already tried to discuss covid there in 2020 only to be told it should be discussed elsewhere. I have unsubcribed from ietf@ietf. I might get back to it, but I will certainly not discuss covid there, there is too much risk. >> Some of us really would like to concentrate on those high-level >> principles and these other discussions are creating noise that >> impedes the effort. > > One of the high level principles that ties this all together is that > we should within the community try to establish better ways to > disseminate the relevant information required to enable better > (hybrid) meetings including all the aspects of travel logistics. I agree. > Right now the only mechanisms we have is to hope for LLC to listen to > complaints and/or attendees helping other attendees on the ietf > attendees list.> There is for example no mandatory to be maintained > FAQ that could in a structured and current (updated) way reflect all > the nitty gritty that today attendees have to search long through > mailing lists. Including stuff like masks or the like. > > Not sure if giving recommendations for such better documentation/ > review processes for such information would be in charter of > manycouches. FAQ might be an idea. But at this point the FAQs about covid are not very frequent - there is no time enough to accommodate many people to complex concepts, and the answers are not very long lived, are not definitive. However, the interpretation of scientific articles as read by engineers can be very helpful. Alex > Cheers Toerless > >> thanks, john >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing >> list Manycouches@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > From nobody Tue Jan 18 02:04:02 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1A253A1531 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:04:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vhb_3yJcyjME for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:03:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 423733A152E for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:03:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20IA3uhg001698 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:03:56 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 240E92030E5 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:03:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19560203132 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:03:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.13.174] ([10.14.13.174]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20IA3tsa008584 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:03:56 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:03:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <40890F80-87FA-4EF2-ADFA-68C823826C71@eggert.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <40890F80-87FA-4EF2-ADFA-68C823826C71@eggert.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:04:01 -0000 it has been updated but it is wrong at times (e.g. now it says sinovac vaccine accepted, but EMA does not yet accept it; EMA says novavax is accepted but the site does not list it). I do not trust the way this information is put there. I think there is a disconnect... Le 18/01/2022 à 07:48, Lars Eggert a écrit : > https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/covid-related-requirements/ > > > -- > Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > >> On Jan 18, 2022, at 07:48, Toerless Eckert wrote: >> >> There is for example no mandatory to be maintained FAQ that could >> in a structured and current (updated) way reflect all the nitty >> gritty that today attendees have to search long through  mailing lists. >> Including stuff like masks or the like. > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Tue Jan 18 02:07:37 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C05AB3A15A4 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:07:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Puk9IDU_Z31u for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:07:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50FD53A1618 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:07:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id d3so17066993ilr.10 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:07:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tM2VVNKtpYA3uWFsFIUkeL0SgWfQn3CrSie+uOj5iMQ=; b=F+hYvTW+0CTa1iCz9AUt1xuRk7wLmzULRvuDBDri+03k5OK9oQPAT97ikQYncTiQqb kGwkt7uhohXYteowPnUqo1od/8XD37QcVoLH4mOat8WfY5jiEZyRLjbwsumARi8K8DNy 295Md+enGcV0d1lBMkq0a6khFEze+Mov4jcEcdhgpDllMJ8Ztqdqubc0vAjp6uDD0+HU Z5X19bIMvCeYG4aT32UDuJcDSsNVDnZTSWzLePrBj06DV3IENP7qh/3gPdbg0zO30qCF Ir+4fQQp19ZmxQD44NpU212yJD4WQ0VPnH8zs1zjiir2Jth1v6bBa+Yk4rKLSZKwV5VV DXWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tM2VVNKtpYA3uWFsFIUkeL0SgWfQn3CrSie+uOj5iMQ=; b=ZRmmu5eiI7YuqWvmSgPg8uXek/eqPILwo31q7fQrTDt9zj0TqJ+SyGTDnlezSEcvWX CmYaZ1n2sZfHwXg637dzLHsVOcWKDQhwm5KfUVkIvwpLpGZe1ZP0rebyG7qE91QZ1IsQ LRpO6stu36bvGpE62wp46w809PX37ICp3YPCKjZkmKDrjdm5lG5eGo8Jyvj5RJ+A2LQl vaV7nOnQk2bylXAlF+bQ3tyNWvCKIs5no0zKhXjpvLrLz1y/n1lsfJD/4ybTRCsoz0rN wKpotn8If1PMhEq+w6qE4yskzpUIWnVBJUjodmo5ovxC9SLIRXWbz2qVwXmZ0V87Coa1 BCMQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531o2qbNE9UBLpB9+7jgDGAS7h+BRN/4YUnZHzsYb0Jig1m16/h9 FLiWZHoW1es3QkpPseWIGJrb1a+HuJujSvvKBB8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx4dnQpckd2Sl3SCbAsdGlcAuzfV+ZXVr0fh4A5mufGWcmfZRMYrzK3JB+TFMJuHHhRmH2A9m8xZhGUldVvk0g= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:2186:: with SMTP id j6mr12051573ila.70.1642500433636; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:07:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <70126db3-61e3-0922-8fbb-ed1eae8cf078@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ted Hardie Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:06:47 +0000 Message-ID: To: John C Klensin Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e3f35e05d5d86eb3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] FFP2, FFP3 and N95 masks have versions with valves - they ate likely to not protect the others X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:07:35 -0000 --000000000000e3f35e05d5d86eb3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear John, One thing that has not come up in this discussion is that many > or most of the national standards for the use of face masks that > get into the FFP2 or N95 range also involve fit requirements > because, if they don't fit properly and form good seals, the > efficacy of the masks drops significantly. Should a country or > venue specify a fitting requirement along with a mask type, > those of us with most varieties of facial hair are out of luck > unless we were willing to get rid of it. That would be a whole > new form of the IETF accidentally creating and enforcing > discriminatory policies about who can attend f2f meetings. It > would be within scope, as I understand it to make a policy about > that but I really, really, hope we don't go there unless we are > willing to accept, and preferably subsidize positive-pressure > PAPR-type devices (and many of them don't offer much protection > to anyone but the wearer) > You may be interested in the "Singh Thattha" technique ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33022336/) which addresses the ability to get an appropriate fit for PPE when beards are worn. While developed for those for whom this is a religious obligation, the technique can be used even when there is no protected class involved. (Pictures here: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/no-need-to-shave-religious-beard-to-save-covid-19-patients-study/articleshow/79238956.cms ) regards, Ted --000000000000e3f35e05d5d86eb3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dea= r John,

One thing that has not come up in this discussion is tha= t many
or most of the national standards for the use of face masks that
get into the FFP2 or N95 range also involve fit requirements
because, if they don't fit properly and form good seals, the
efficacy of the masks drops significantly.=C2=A0 Should a country or
venue specify a fitting requirement along with a mask type,
those of us with most varieties of facial hair are out of luck
unless we were willing to get rid of it.=C2=A0 That would be a whole
new form of the IETF accidentally creating and enforcing
discriminatory policies about who can attend f2f meetings.=C2=A0 It
would be within scope, as I understand it to make a policy about
that but I really, really, hope we don't go there unless we are
willing to accept, and preferably subsidize positive-pressure
PAPR-type devices (and many of them don't offer much protection
to anyone but the wearer)

You may be interested in the "Sin= gh Thattha" technique (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33022336/) which addresses the a= bility to get an appropriate fit for PPE when beards are worn.=C2=A0 While = developed for those for whom this is a religious obligation, the technique = can be used even when there is no protected class involved.=C2=A0 (Pictures= here:=C2=A0 https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/no-nee= d-to-shave-religious-beard-to-save-covid-19-patients-study/articleshow/7923= 8956.cms)

regard= s,

Ted



--000000000000e3f35e05d5d86eb3-- From nobody Tue Jan 18 02:08:25 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09A73A15A0 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:08:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ISiTiJuPpaho for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:08:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 705613A161D for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:07:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20IA7uCC003980 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:07:56 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B55C20310F for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:07:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91E0920310D for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:07:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.13.174] ([10.14.13.174]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20IA7uo8012324 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:07:56 +0100 Message-ID: <6a869c98-2042-d9b9-74d5-09f3af1bf0ef@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:07:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <6B0C8618-2BC1-4F4C-91A7-5CB86A14E382@eggert.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <6B0C8618-2BC1-4F4C-91A7-5CB86A14E382@eggert.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:08:25 -0000 Le 18/01/2022 à 08:13, Lars Eggert a écrit : > Hi, > > Jay (who is on vacation) can comment on details, but my recollection > is that when the decision for Vienna was made, Austria accepted a > broader range of vaccines than they do now. (I think Austria changed > their rules on Dec 27.) I think this is wrong, I mean it is a little bit not right. Austria follows the EMA advice on the list of vaccines, I think (?) That list started with 4 vaccines and keeps growing. They are now 5. Maybe there will be more. > We actually tried our best to identify a location that would allow > for broad attendance (among other requirements). And then that > location changed its rules. We can certainly mention this on the > page, but I disagree that there is anything that the LLC or the > secretariat need to apologize for. I can agree to that. But I think that the organization should use a more formal advice from trained people, or from well intended people about this. Just URLs from here and there is not good enough. It is the idea of a 'scientific panel', a 'covid officer (person in office)' or something like that. Alex > > Thanks, Lars From nobody Tue Jan 18 02:16:16 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A113A15F1 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:16:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8mU0NVIu3mOA for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:16:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B054A3A15EC for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 02:16:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20IAGAiA026017 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:16:10 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 2801C20317E for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:16:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9C820317D for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:16:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.13.174] ([10.14.13.174]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20IAG95x019080 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:16:09 +0100 Message-ID: <00e63a15-ffd9-174e-0656-d4ee58b69adb@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:16:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <6B0C8618-2BC1-4F4C-91A7-5CB86A14E382@eggert.org> <6a869c98-2042-d9b9-74d5-09f3af1bf0ef@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <6a869c98-2042-d9b9-74d5-09f3af1bf0ef@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:16:14 -0000 Le 18/01/2022 à 11:07, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > > > Le 18/01/2022 à 08:13, Lars Eggert a écrit : >> Hi, >> >> Jay (who is on vacation) can comment on details, but my >> recollection is that when the decision for Vienna was made, Austria >> accepted a broader range of vaccines than they do now. (I think >> Austria changed their rules on Dec 27.) > > I think this is wrong, I mean it is a little bit not right. If something Austria had better than other countries with respect to vaccines, it might be that Austria accepted 4 vaccines rather than 3 in America, at a given point in time in year 2021. The list was the following: accepted in Austria (EMA) Pfizer, AZ, Moderna, J&J. Accepted in USA: Pfizer, Moderna, J&J. Remark, IIRC, the lack of presence of AZ in USA. That would mean that at a given point in time Austria would accept more people (more kinds of vaccines) than in USA. Since then the vaccine acceptance evolved in Europe in a few ways: AZ changed the name of the vaccine (not sure the composition change), Novavax got approved in EU, and consideration in EU is further given to more vaccine brands. Worldwide, there are more vaccine names produced in more countries. That is the situation. Alex > > Austria follows the EMA advice on the list of vaccines, I think (?) > > That list started with 4 vaccines and keeps growing. They are now > 5. Maybe there will be more. > >> We actually tried our best to identify a location that would allow >> for broad attendance (among other requirements). And then that >> location changed its rules. We can certainly mention this on the >> page, but I disagree that there is anything that the LLC or the >> secretariat need to apologize for. > > I can agree to that. > > But I think that the organization should use a more formal advice > from trained people, or from well intended people about this. Just > URLs from here and there is not good enough. > > It is the idea of a 'scientific panel', a 'covid officer (person in > office)' or something like that. > > Alex > >> >> Thanks, Lars > > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Tue Jan 18 03:33:54 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA0DB3A096B for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 03:33:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.671 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.671 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sxQDAHfkbRSA for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 03:33:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 744D33A0966 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 03:33:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20IBXicb027422 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:33:44 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id DC2C4203209 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:33:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D28D52030DC for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:33:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.3.207] ([10.14.3.207]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20IBXihR028569 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:33:44 +0100 Message-ID: <1f4650b9-dbb9-4f94-a740-21967fc23866@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:33:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: "manycouches@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Austria entry and stay vaccination rules, 2-G, 9 months, , etc. X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:33:52 -0000 The goal is health. I would like to point out to a few problems. The following URL has some problems. https://www.austria.info/en/service-and-facts/coronavirus-information/entry-regulations > People who are fully vaccinated (double jabbed) AND have received > the 3rd booster jab (or the second shot in case you were jabbed with > Johnson & Johnson) can enter Austria with a negative PCR test > (valid 48 hours). and later on it says: > When you need a PCR test > > Please find several scenarios below: > > 2x vaccinated (or 1x vaccinated with Johnson & Johnson): PCR test > mandatory* > > 3x vaccinated (or 1x vaccinated with Johnson & Johnson plus Booster): > no PCR test needed remark the 'no PCR test needed' vs the initial 'can enter Austria with a negative PCR test'. Who is right? Remark also the following: > Proof of full vaccination (2 jabs) OR proof of past infection (the > medical document needs to show the date of recovery – (for guests > from the UK: an NHS email/text of a positive test is not sufficient) > > > AND a negative PCR test (valid for 72 hours) OR proof of a booster > jab (booster is valid from the first day) Err.. is it an AND or an OR? Are there missing parenthesis? Is it A AND (B OR C) or is it (A AND B) OR C ? Remark in the html page they use bold text for the OR but normal text for AND. Is there a particular significance for the bold? > BioNtech / Pfizer, AstraZeneca (or Covishield), Johnson & Johnson, > Moderna, the Chinese vaccines Sinopharm and Sinovac and - since 25 > December - Covaxin, Covovax, 'covovax'? > > I am vaccinated with Sinopharm/Sinovac/Covishield/Sputnik V. What can > I do to meet the "2-G" criteria during my stay? > > Currently, only BioNtech/Pfizer, AstraZeneca, Johnson & Johnson and > Moderna are recognised under the "2-G" rule in Austria. However, in > case you have had one shot of Sinopharm/Sinovac/Covishield/Sputnik V > and two additional jabs with an EMA-approved vaccine you will obtain > “2-G” status, too. People who have been vaccinated with > Sinopharm/Sinovac/Covishield/Sputnik V. and can show both proof of an > antibody test and a booster with BioNtech/Pfizer, AstraZeneca, > Johnson & Johnson or Moderna are also able to get a "2-G" > certificate. Please note: The booster alone is not sufficient! The > antibody test is mandatory and must be carried out before the > additional jab with any of the above mentioned vaccines. But - Sputnik V is not allowed for entry, so why listing it? Second, normally one performs an antibody test to identify whether or not antibodies are sufficient, if yes then no need to vaccinate. But the text says that one _must_ perform antibody test _and_ vaccinate. What result do they want from the antibody test? Proof of positive antibody test or proof of negative antibody test? -------- The list of vaccines accepted to entry in Austria is different than that of vaccinating local people. Some vaccines protect more than others, especially with respect to transmission. Once the weaker vaccines are accepted, the entire system is weaker, regardless of the presence of stronger vaccines. That is a problem of authorities in Austria, not of IETF, nor of Hilton, but it is nonetheless a problem. It has effects on IETF meeeting in Austria. I suspect that is why they dont allow people with non-EMA vaccines to 'stay' in Austria (e.g. go to restaurant, etc, 2G). They allow them to enter but not to 'stay', or to '2-G'. The Austria URL says '2 jab' ('full') is mandatory to entry in Austria. But that is simply wrong for several reasons. Some vaccines are single-jab by design. It depends when. Further, 'heterogolous' vaccination involves several kinds of vaccines, and some combination prove more advantageous than others. Additionally, some people consider 'full' to be actually 3-jab, or 4-jab these days. The solution to that is to develop verbiage that no longer talks about 2- or 3- jab, but to talk about 'vaccinated in the last x months against y and z variants with vaccine name'. The last EMA advisory seems to plan towards change in strategy, telling that too many boosters might not be good, might not help. SOme possible strategy according to EMA is to consider stop vaccination now but re-start in autumn. That aspect will change again the verbiage of what is accepted as vaccination. Also, Austria seems to accept a 'medical certificate for recovery'. It seems to ignore that in some countries that cert does not exist. Where I live what exists is that a PCR test was positive 2 weeks ago and now 2 PCR tests are negative. That is the proof, it is not a particular certificate. That seems to not be accepted in Austria. Further, in such a case Austria proposes a declaration form. That form must be signed by a doctor. But anyone can sign it by hand. It can be easily faked. Some of the worst rules, which I consider irresponsible the authorities to keep there is the following: "Two-dose vaccinations are currently valid for 270 days after the second or any additional dose." That makes for 9 months. It is way too much. Where I live it is 5 to 7 months. I think the Austrian authorities know that already. I suspect they already apply it to locals, but have not yet updated the URL. This number of months has a strong impact on planning to travel to Austria. Alex From nobody Tue Jan 18 03:34:30 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E853A0970 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 03:34:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H35ie5B03UgM for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 03:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D4B73A096E for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 03:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:39fd:4b64:8a32:a6e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 11C901D2670; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:34:14 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1642505654; bh=eaKzMBHplXp5A3pUuB5Bojd+UKEgRFLSKN8TVUyhWOQ=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=A0F9y166zPIVzfGmrLrdm8Q16XkhqzKcsaGiSREmWwHOVYLyR5QFBt8pORLr2WpVN 151kznyyO3VqK2lU8lTgiDLrUI2mTaVxIrHlI3FWYCOpAUW/fpV1rnPn0xQpEUdiLl 9WhZEyqWnyn/M4yKLTL2whZj+ah9QHWiV/wdU6pc= Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_422F7EAA-4B70-4FAE-8D2F-B5B1B2CD3788"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:34:13 +0200 Cc: manycouches@ietf.org Message-Id: References: <40890F80-87FA-4EF2-ADFA-68C823826C71@eggert.org> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-MailScanner-ID: 11C901D2670.A44A1 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:34:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_422F7EAA-4B70-4FAE-8D2F-B5B1B2CD3788 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2022-1-18, at 12:03, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: > it has been updated but it is wrong at times (e.g. now it says sinovac = vaccine accepted, but EMA does not yet accept it; EMA says novavax is = accepted but the site does not list it). the IETF FAQ says "Please note that Covishield, Sinopharm and Sinovac = are valid for entry into Austria, but the 2-G+ system to enter hotels, = restaurants, etc, only recognizes BioNtech/Pfizer, AstraZeneca, Johnson = & Johnson and Moderna." This is EXACTLY the same information as given on the official Austrian = web page at = https://www.austria.info/en/service-and-facts/coronavirus-information/entr= y-regulations, which is also linked from the FAQ. There may well be differences between the EMA information and the = official Austrian information, but since the meeting is held in Austria, = the latter is the relevant one. > I do not trust the way this information is put there. It is of course up to you individually to decide if you want to trust = the provided information. But I would ask that you refrain from making = claims about "wrong information" when that is factually incorrect. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_422F7EAA-4B70-4FAE-8D2F-B5B1B2CD3788 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmHmpbUACgkQVLXDCb9w wVfhdhAAgra5oo2DnX04Sel3813z+CGYD1g+aNz5llVsEOfMOhmAfBNXh5I+rPLG J1dtaY3km5IB2AOq+84LAf3yj8ikY13GE6VSSM1eMMxp+LXswUCPtj2yxhTwOw2I g4RFzMj9Ga/7vmpyEdADD7HoVZss9nhOEpAYEH1/W1hiXN86eHyT/3y1lQ3SN1FU en5u6XP3qMQyGeTYoMNs2ej/Jv87K6nePXWgp5ou4gy6rb59DCB1AYVtJtfpY4w/ dO1M9AYZ2Hd4L6GopO8NNcxKDGYJcwLtfUBaVdxXWFeSDjKdU8qZmzKRUsszjIbz 0liYPY+wS7+VZMk7tayNgECM/Jis7z0KpvAvcZX6N9ETDt1FTRwL6caG0lr+bM8R DVLW8RKNk3CHQy9uqe4f2jc0R8ENrxDoj0tztPCmeyW8GNvOEmMuHMjkPMfT3Bhc l6qCzsPkCKQlOE6Z+cSFpriiHKoROWIoQH3/xmTf/lEHFB9RQO9MpWxKsl1UKPaO GO0K0YtnCITr72u+7Gs1mF5ze9t2bLHXgFsYHilzvisNEg2MzNAX5ymSkS5RtSK2 zrL6NEflqNVBqtxUK52x2hvT1Rwg1QqBNRy1LCqHDzEwvTqUKIRIx0n1U+YrcE11 qirgJ5Odi1jcNMarCV2GuR/1mJXBpdUFLJcmWYtbIeogX0vQweA= =XBVY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_422F7EAA-4B70-4FAE-8D2F-B5B1B2CD3788-- From nobody Tue Jan 18 03:45:52 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791713A0A62 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 03:45:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nviqk8dvMFZx for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 03:45:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF8333A0A5E for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 03:45:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20IBjePi006633; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:45:40 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 0259C2031F2; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:45:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E96BB2030DC; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:45:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.1.234] ([10.14.1.234]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20IBjdK1000988; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:45:39 +0100 Message-ID: <09a86b3d-6501-761f-ee63-1d79ce246650@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:45:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: Lars Eggert Cc: manycouches@ietf.org References: <40890F80-87FA-4EF2-ADFA-68C823826C71@eggert.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:45:51 -0000 Le 18/01/2022 à 12:34, Lars Eggert a écrit : > Hi, > > On 2022-1-18, at 12:03, Alexandre Petrescu > wrote: >> it has been updated but it is wrong at times (e.g. now it says >> sinovac vaccine accepted, but EMA does not yet accept it; EMA says >> novavax is accepted but the site does not list it). > > the IETF FAQ says "Please note that Covishield, Sinopharm and Sinovac > are valid for entry into Austria, but the 2-G+ system to enter > hotels, restaurants, etc, only recognizes BioNtech/Pfizer, > AstraZeneca, Johnson & Johnson and Moderna." > > This is EXACTLY the same information as given on the official > Austrian web page at > https://www.austria.info/en/service-and-facts/coronavirus-information/entry-regulations, > which is also linked from the FAQ. Sorry, I disagree. It is not precisely the same information. The IETF FAQ does not list Novavax which _is_ recognized by the pointed URL; this URL says "During your stay, only BioNtech / Pfizer, AstraZeneca (but NOT Covishield), Johnson & Johnson, Moderna and Nuvaxovid (Novavax) are recognised." (remark Novavax.) > There may well be differences between the EMA information and the > official Austrian information, but since the meeting is held in > Austria, the latter is the relevant one. > >> I do not trust the way this information is put there. > > It is of course up to you individually to decide if you want to trust > the provided information. But I would ask that you refrain from > making claims about "wrong information" when that is factually > incorrect. Lars, thank you for the message. Generally I agree with you. I will refrain from making strong statements such as 'wrong information' when applicable. I will make just point out to things that I think might be errors. For example that 270 days number is an error. I gave other details in another separate email on that topic. Sorry if there are misunderstandings, Alex > > Thanks, Lars > From nobody Tue Jan 18 04:03:27 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD6693A0B59 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 04:03:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zgGm5Jt-q8Tw for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 04:03:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 126913A0B54 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 04:03:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:39fd:4b64:8a32:a6e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AB9331D2987; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:03:09 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1642507389; bh=xzP0SbGFJLBYajKfPrRibVguhYvBqMy7qIhf4+KqV8U=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=XSDuM1qoXOL9gt2wq+33fZqQsXTu6M0dbuTPyhfpcVckA6geLAzesjDiP79O1Rfcn QrMS3bcLDgPmJ+Rz0kBm13goFPPeOh4TpAmT2IdZ2gX5w5MckHdbaQ2QzLSwLsK8T0 4poKeH9nUY51hXTa8Tdo7YkOtFIOVt0zsOF7XEJM= Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D0A78CCD-0C17-49B2-B3A5-DF4DEAA4EBC3"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <09a86b3d-6501-761f-ee63-1d79ce246650@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:03:08 +0200 Cc: manycouches@ietf.org Message-Id: References: <40890F80-87FA-4EF2-ADFA-68C823826C71@eggert.org> <09a86b3d-6501-761f-ee63-1d79ce246650@gmail.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-MailScanner-ID: AB9331D2987.A2ABF X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:03:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D0A78CCD-0C17-49B2-B3A5-DF4DEAA4EBC3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2022-1-18, at 13:45, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: > The IETF FAQ does not list Novavax which _is_ recognized by the = pointed URL; this URL says "During your stay, only BioNtech / Pfizer, = AstraZeneca (but NOT Covishield), Johnson & Johnson, Moderna and = Nuvaxovid (Novavax) are recognised." (remark Novavax.) you are correct that there is a discrepancy, in that the IETF FAQ is = currently missing Covaxin from the list of vaccines that are OK for = entering Austria. We will get that updated. (Neither the IETF FAQ not the Austrian page list Novavax/Nuvaxovid, = however?) Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_D0A78CCD-0C17-49B2-B3A5-DF4DEAA4EBC3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmHmrHwACgkQVLXDCb9w wVd3mBAAuhjkNaXBWuHUGPjNttkqDyCfM8+Oj+2TCmZoJ+k4Ut5Z/5TBMHpOH5hE 05KwLJeOW6ML9d3zJP99jtsiT3/3dFwSOWFhw9wdXundcXY9uf0DWrg4TwhV76vF jPy7EwtcT89IsMnWJuFFBDSxv8ahHNKqsCdRx0MKHShK/nv2l/USH+fs9RbOKoU3 U8NxzSXNngZ/n8ioIhkiaxqO742OzdkSqrFL/HwwyrWvTOr2bhm0GLgY4JDumPdG lkjqTxJzpuLh05If1cL1E1gbX33CYQFfix02py4TOQT6cbETrAc50QV+cC4T5Brf eGSVkQxOJX+KxNryPH3Qgq5OdckPxA7dmLCUMbZvqtEOyR97raFLqNU2hk+dPg5u /2sP4i9CttN+0xC34x0nQlFKM+gjn8pGD8x7TGgyDIl6OTs9t9uxD0haHNbDTvG6 U6Y4eDMQINH6wYAK8s3pOaNcD8X/9+ImKMRamFzr8cG2HNS/V9o6FjdRTz5qW0dp zAhbaflICxgbOJgqCHWw6VK77xZ8MRHYrYtc7vmUn1ZSlFiyZPj1rZPMHdsvR6QU Fsaje/31wjUnN83PR7lyJnovJNp/7qZEL+b/vjK1Ew+NSJ/wSsHdbMJbU3gCGkeo XgdJM8Vn/Dg80e9etBgVOOPZ9RHZdpDI0DiYO7jK5O7horcReM8= =68KV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D0A78CCD-0C17-49B2-B3A5-DF4DEAA4EBC3-- From nobody Tue Jan 18 04:03:35 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEF213A0B5B for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 04:03:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4GFmJ5Z-oOpK for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 04:03:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CDEF3A0B57 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 04:03:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:39fd:4b64:8a32:a6e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9FF7E1D298A; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:03:11 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1642507391; bh=9mTrjIaI4hpiAreyf4F26UhwgVSiflZeZfBGbe7qzLE=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=ObEg0ZdRKXTcdTPEmHapuO/ZPwiOD6UWDak03RqNKAHZtQ696qNWT8X+MLCa4sWlg adTuLL+O1YRzx/DOBqb0TCeb0ks0e3d4IGtzgpuoT6ah1PCt6UNCPfIAglN9LK1Ypq /GgzQkRLcCl5LBlja0zbPmtaQUEbkWcMe76IVb+E= Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_47558FE8-D0BE-4589-9439-023F2E5E1160"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <6a869c98-2042-d9b9-74d5-09f3af1bf0ef@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:03:11 +0200 Cc: manycouches@ietf.org Message-Id: <0AEA5B7F-CA54-4BE2-84F1-357ACB518BC4@eggert.org> References: <6B0C8618-2BC1-4F4C-91A7-5CB86A14E382@eggert.org> <6a869c98-2042-d9b9-74d5-09f3af1bf0ef@gmail.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-MailScanner-ID: 9FF7E1D298A.A490D X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:03:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_47558FE8-D0BE-4589-9439-023F2E5E1160 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi (again), On 2022-1-18, at 12:07, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >> Jay (who is on vacation) can comment on details, but my recollection = is that when the decision for Vienna was made, Austria accepted a = broader range of vaccines than they do now. (I think Austria changed = their rules on Dec 27.) >=20 > I think this is wrong, I mean it is a little bit not right. it is not. > Austria follows the EMA advice on the list of vaccines, I think (?) Austria is publishing their own rules, possibly based on EMA advice, as = are all other EU countries. The current Austrian regulations are on = https://www.austria.info/en/service-and-facts/coronavirus-information/entr= y-regulations, which is linked from the IETF FAQ (and summarized there). = Those are the rules that matter, as we plan to meet in Austria. > But I think that the organization should use a more formal advice from > trained people, or from well intended people about this. Just URLs = from > here and there is not good enough. I take offense at your insinuation that the secretariat or LLC Board are = somehow sloppy, careless, or otherwise incautious when it comes to = organizing IETF 113. Vienna was carefully chosen according to a detailed = set of requirements worked out in consultation with the community, and = the staff is working incredibly hard at making sure we will have a safe = and productive meeting that fulfills Austria's strict requirements. A = large part of this is constant contact with Austrian officials. As for = URLs in the FAQ, all but two go to the applicable information published = by the Austrian government or the City of Vienna (the remaining two link = to Wikipedia, for definitions of FFP2 and N95). Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_47558FE8-D0BE-4589-9439-023F2E5E1160 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmHmrH8ACgkQVLXDCb9w wVdigg/8DpEBo8gqul0MHgAkRcXJnETa6pMyGJGQS/jlZdm8SISSXl5daTQPf6Zq qhgSiUAWItP112ZITvqQxdTr+Xv3jQsjx7P/oXtN2DXerlEj/YYk+kiGKG45GIJb zHGfiHvLFBU+mTvI5dKBVRqbB9YkaqkTgUGdEiSJ35wFIYnea3S3qR8/koiynLvp vQHK3ptCCC+3yBrpjiNshts5PLGxiBXWeqEXj18U3lxvZp1A/EG0ZstJXmfUyycA TbHDGKuyySp97S3+cev27ers5n8NW2tUu9x55LxiehdpFo2QuaIkehlTyDn3ZE+Y kqkD/p9NR5qeTUfMmkq+CdB71L2qxEF3XYorzn5UG4RctnNz2UgaQv7JNRuiOWEO 9icpb5lQjZHe1cUNSv4yhN6cfk/dUOfjZ75zpoodPbG9cqFlgnYc638B8zYOLg+2 97YRJRtYWaNTDu1to+heuzqPjTKeJ1Nl846O767lqx1SBMDPAUuGpocBbecsMcXw X5TsrI81Ly+R4K6j8NRV1iqoZCna21kwdYk60Qyvftkni6ReJSRAclGrUGs8wM/v quWDNPIcp8R5YDulrUYJH9wYudBwkQz0Yzt/UE2HjbloRlS2eUgemVNLQ7hKC4BK hI8XoXygjU9nHhq+hvS+mJ4b2N4QJCqdxsivPcIgR1mLU0AkJEs= =lPrn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_47558FE8-D0BE-4589-9439-023F2E5E1160-- From nobody Tue Jan 18 04:49:37 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AAEC3A0FBF for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 04:49:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rHaIhKYKxNhp for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 04:49:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF8883A0FB8 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 04:49:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20ICnPgk028424; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:49:25 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id EEF0C2033FF; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:49:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E044C20341C; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:49:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.1.234] ([10.14.1.234]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20ICnONU032762; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:49:24 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:49:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: Lars Eggert Cc: manycouches@ietf.org References: <6B0C8618-2BC1-4F4C-91A7-5CB86A14E382@eggert.org> <6a869c98-2042-d9b9-74d5-09f3af1bf0ef@gmail.com> <0AEA5B7F-CA54-4BE2-84F1-357ACB518BC4@eggert.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <0AEA5B7F-CA54-4BE2-84F1-357ACB518BC4@eggert.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:49:35 -0000 Hi, Lars, Le 18/01/2022 à 13:03, Lars Eggert a écrit : > Hi (again), > > On 2022-1-18, at 12:07, Alexandre Petrescu > wrote: >>> Jay (who is on vacation) can comment on details, but my >>> recollection is that when the decision for Vienna was made, >>> Austria accepted a broader range of vaccines than they do now. (I >>> think Austria changed their rules on Dec 27.) >> >> I think this is wrong, I mean it is a little bit not right. > > it is not. > >> Austria follows the EMA advice on the list of vaccines, I think >> (?) > > Austria is publishing their own rules, possibly based on EMA advice, > as are all other EU countries. The current Austrian regulations are > on > https://www.austria.info/en/service-and-facts/coronavirus-information/entry-regulations, > > > > > which is linked from the IETF FAQ (and summarized there). Those are > the rules that matter, as we plan to meet in Austria. Yes. However, they, as other similar places, are hurrying to create protocols without consultation at large. Then problems arise at implementation. Then better protocols come out. It is not the only place where what is normally an authority actually stumbles like a baby. The fault is because of the magnitude of the problem, not because of badly intended people. >> But I think that the organization should use a more formal advice >> from trained people, or from well intended people about this. Just >> URLs from here and there is not good enough. > > I take offense at your insinuation that the secretariat or LLC Board > are somehow sloppy, careless, or otherwise incautious when it comes > to organizing IETF 113. Sorry about that, no offense. However, since the topic is opened, I take advantage to complain about the following: this Charter under discussion clearly says 'covid' and clearly says 'principles to LLC'. In that sense, why is the covid topic out of scope for email discussions? And why are suggestions (admitedly only mine, not WG consensus) discarded at a moment's notice? Why have I the feeling (admitedly just my feeling, not WG consensus) that all drafts that have been discussed here are actually pushed hard for approval and no comment (admitedly just from me) are integrated in the drafts? I do not complain about LLC, that I simply dont know precisely. I personally do not need to push or develop consensus in shmoo WG. What I need is the temporary information about covid to be understood in a same manner as I understand the technical topic at IETF. That could be an advantage for me, personally. In that sense, an email list (not a WG email list) at IETF and with IETFers might be advantageous for me. If this can not happen - a non-WG non-BoF 10-year email list at IETF about covid - then it is not a big problem, I can stop. > Vienna was carefully chosen according to a detailed set of > requirements worked out in consultation with the community, I dont doubt there were polls. However, I do remember important doubts expressed prior to selecting Vienna. The doubts were about in-person components, be it Vienna or elsewhere. Given that, I think the community was not listened to. > and the staff is working incredibly hard at making sure we will have > a safe and productive meeting that fulfills Austria's strict > requirements. A large part of this is constant contact with Austrian > officials. As for URLs in the FAQ, all but two go to the applicable > information published by the Austrian government or the City of > Vienna (the remaining two link to Wikipedia, for definitions of FFP2 > and N95). Recognition to staff work, from me, please transmit. I think this work is about making a protocol. One might call it differently (a process, a meeting req, etc). But it is a 'covid protocol' to meet in-person. That can be improved. The way the 'covid protocol of the in-person meeting' could be improved by using traditional WG method: consensus, implementation, I-Ds. Maybe that _is_ possible, maybe not. If that is not possible, then all one can do is talk about 'covid' when talking how to plan to go to meeting, etc. That can be done in a separate email list. But it can not be the 'attendees' list because one gets on the 'attendees' list only at the moment when one has already registered to the meeting. One _could_ register to the attendees list as an online-only participant, but at that point one is not interested in the 'covid' parts which are only for the in-person components. Also, the attendees list discusses many other things than just covid; they discuss lost&found, restaurants, meetecho topics, tshirts, etc. Also, the ethics dimension of this is new. Normal advice is this: if one does not like the in-person components because of some flu risk then no problem, please attend online. In normal times that is ok. But in covid times, it is different, again because of the dimension of the problem. It might be that one might not want to participate into a meeting (be it online) which has an in-person part because that might help spread the virus. By ricochet, that same virus which was avoided by not going to Vienna and staying home online might arrive back to one at home in the same room from where s/he participated online. This is a new dimension that might be just in my mind (the broken record), but that is how I see it. This 'ricochet' effect can be quantified by answering the question of how long it takes for the virus to go from Vienna to where I live. There is data about this. Alex > > Thanks, Lars > From nobody Tue Jan 18 06:40:47 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5DC43A147B for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 06:40:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id icO5VDhxOG2M for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 06:40:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com [148.163.141.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABB933A1479 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 06:40:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0184889.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with ESMTP id 20IDtRm0014835; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:40:39 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=20190412; bh=D3U8hMpT9+lhOaktN+V5qd6v3yVXlRz5U9NU4Yu/7KU=; b=5BaK76DDGlVVY/5bjs4blR/n7MoDjkXg5R/cZ8GJ6rRisHJXPYF8Nxv0Oei+4QHRwv0a HWSqeyYfVc7c2Q7CslNPqlbEnaaoqYz/dA9ykQ+ElrKnPY6MpfXQxuYri1Cas1udpHJL U+DWzggS5WNPoL44a4Nv+wX67MqqaHZh/y06hYhTPs7/EpKqRisQcP36273ukwZ9yGET nnCKJEzKX9hYRJx2WFHYdvaG9lXTDAI1mEet4uI8+b/a6y/dsO1C3Xi83hQ2knNZ+kNP iQtX1pxt+6ObygYaWE+zcPjN0IS9bJ8Kd74cYQ4kFWDx8MW7d5riMSuyCZbeoCG0ko5n sw== Received: from pacdcexop03.cable.comcast.com (dlppfpt-wc-1p.slb.comcast.com [96.99.226.136]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3dn6ctrcc8-28 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:40:38 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXOP01.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.148) by PACDCEXOP03.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.150) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:40:24 -0500 Received: from pacdcexedge02.cable.comcast.com (68.87.38.198) by PACDCEXOP01.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:40:24 -0500 Received: from NAM02-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.57.45) by webmail.comcast.com (68.87.38.198) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:40:08 -0500 Received: from MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:f3::22) by SN6PR11MB3278.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:805:ba::10) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4888.12; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:40:06 +0000 Received: from MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a148:cf13:f00:c1ac]) by MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a148:cf13:f00:c1ac%5]) with mapi id 15.20.4888.014; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:40:05 +0000 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Alexandre Petrescu , "manycouches@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) Thread-Index: AQHYDC74ruQ/X+dz30CIOPMPBSmD+qxoi92A///6ggA= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:40:05 +0000 Message-ID: <1A7465B3-50E4-4F94-B30F-439A09E54F9A@cable.comcast.com> References: <807739550.23977.1642439976038@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <80027BD1CE22FD6B314BAD5D@PSB> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.57.22011101 x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3fe55ac3-0202-4db1-0178-08d9da906b47 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR11MB3278:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:5236; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(64756008)(66556008)(76116006)(8676002)(66476007)(6512007)(66446008)(38070700005)(558084003)(110136005)(122000001)(8936002)(2906002)(82960400001)(316002)(5660300002)(508600001)(33656002)(86362001)(38100700002)(186003)(71200400001)(6506007)(6486002)(66946007)(2616005)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?utf-8?B?K1U5aUNHdU8yMlFnbWg4Z25SS2t5ZDcwOTZrWFdqK1pEL0w2UGwyWTBmeHU3?= =?utf-8?B?SzY4QkZjZlhUTUNtQUVyZFRDeEs4enlYM2V5amp0TVI3MVF2TGRrT1Y0a0V1?= =?utf-8?B?YmRBb3RQaTg1VVFZZkdYR3dLNGlUWFp0QzFKRHJaTW9UcVNSamRWaXFua1c1?= =?utf-8?B?akxsd2gwclA5VFFKd0k0T0o4RElEQTdHdUx1WmVSQ0RZamgrOVFIMUorUmpS?= =?utf-8?B?WXQ1QXpHZDU5ZlVyZy9CZ29NdmNvaGxmcWlJY21leUczNEVPQnlWM0NFckxG?= =?utf-8?B?bE9yN3d1V3lvTk5BNHcxTDJGZUpnSG40dWRacWMrUTNGTVZkUXJjb29pc1dw?= =?utf-8?B?QVFCU3p2NFdHUm5IanVYWS9MUzI4dXFBVVoxdDVxeWY5RW5iOUN1dHlJclBi?= =?utf-8?B?R1VlR1dERXVxSURyc3o1U0F0MVZXNlRiR2lRY1lTTWswL1FPR1lrL0NpaEF3?= =?utf-8?B?OWZqNjBxN0pDQ0pQV2xGbk1uT3RwK3JoY3ZFU1EydWh6Rm9tSDN2anBLKzRD?= =?utf-8?B?eDM2MkhKVERFckdFN2xWL1NENFR0N1VZbDVtVmJRZTU0ZUtBNFljeVhZaWk2?= =?utf-8?B?WS9PVzNxY2JtL1NSRWhyY3VBWTJVdlZZNTVPQWluNmNrb3pYMFBtSnMrM3V1?= =?utf-8?B?NGNXSzlwbElZdmRwRkdXVm5TUmtld3E0azhDU1AzR3h4MTVReC9EVDVJU0Rq?= =?utf-8?B?Q1FRY295Ti9mdlJGcWxpNmhGVVcyeXZpTDFSRXQxTFB4UWM5RzNVS21qSVZJ?= =?utf-8?B?dXlINDBPTkN1WkxxYXMvdWFNQnVZei9tN3FHeG02TWtXSU9uNjBZL0pDY3F0?= =?utf-8?B?Rlg2MzJXVFBNcjUyTW5UcmtxV2JmV29pclRHWmpzMFFoRFRyMURsREwxOGY2?= =?utf-8?B?dmVia0wwTnRpR0U2elF3OHFLKzRTaDE1Nkl1TjdMZXEvdzN3ejcwckxobW1C?= =?utf-8?B?aHZDeGoya1RkZHY1WEtmZG1ZSm1QRSs1RnJzQmZvWlYyRldYbkZXcGRUdG5O?= =?utf-8?B?blJTSmRvUXlPeFFmS2NvcDlqVjRSS0k5UU45WjhSNlhOenQvZ2NFbWNJZUlM?= =?utf-8?B?cHdrS1pvVjcwZXhHNFl3TlpLMGlpOFZIN01ZeExtOFE0RWN4L1ViNnB1Q0Fu?= =?utf-8?B?MjVIOWNOaTM5QS9ncDRndVNtaXN6bjFmWWMwbTNteitGYTVqSmFqd2dRTm9U?= =?utf-8?B?L1ZEOVBWN2o0UEVmcExwSFVJRWMzNWpNZ0FtMk1sM0hCQWwwajQ2dVBWVFNW?= =?utf-8?B?QktyeTV2N2NZcGNYZkw0S3huNVl6Z2ZuMXNlK0F4NURsWG0vc25TM203LzdN?= =?utf-8?B?aTNIRWo1VEhoZ1B3UitNR040cmdPZXZoa2Vza1p5ZmQyNFVlRU9LNXVwNUl6?= =?utf-8?B?bGVIQ2xCMkhZNXhMR09wdFJQd2hvdUNxUXh5elQzdmd3cDlyQ1ZuWGhwY0hH?= =?utf-8?B?YlZ3RlFCRU5USWdGWmJOOXBWWXg1WGpzZGM3K1BrdWRMeGtZalhSR1ZQYTZ2?= =?utf-8?B?enFid0NWclpmRFFDVXZiUjhaQytSMHE5UGhCQXdzNjdPUUprRW50TUJJVXBS?= =?utf-8?B?elQ4RW1DQUcyVlV0Szg4dGNkQ1lkazVHamJTMWczQ0VwVzM3ZWJpQlpOQk9i?= =?utf-8?B?Z2NTb1lJMDNLR2crY1dad1BhcUdreXgvRmdBNTNsYy9uVHdXU2x2c0lXTHF6?= =?utf-8?B?MGJzVEc2d2xQQ2pxZy95NXY3SGZqcW1mUlFaT0RSUUNLQzdtR29mVFIzYVhj?= =?utf-8?B?VVYxLzhwRHMvc21UTXdGeG43OU5uZm5oREJGRDR6ekdaRldWRkhOdUZQbElL?= =?utf-8?B?TVQ5WEVTbnRoWWxOTTFhclQ2cDliRHpXNDRyekMxWm1OaEJvdDN4ZmtvMzN5?= =?utf-8?B?SUdFVkpOUTJ0VjB5ajZsbzZ2WGN3NU9NRzgwTUw2YjlTTEo1cldwNkJnY05F?= =?utf-8?B?ZXp3dXplNzNDcXlBYmxVOU5zMXUxaDl2dC8rNDlSbi90QTNOT2E3dktvUUpV?= =?utf-8?B?b3R1eWRnMmZpeVpHWnYxaVA5YmQwdWdTeUNpbkthMGZUY1JvMjE5Lzc3M0Ey?= =?utf-8?B?SFFhNzhUMFpybE8vWXNIVVdnMHpPU1ZYZUhlenJ4MUJEbHVEbnQ1MCttYWhK?= =?utf-8?B?T01OQzlLU2IwRGxUeC9nMTZHcGZldkVPTkU2VThXNjdUZFJVNDg0eUhvZlhk?= =?utf-8?B?cyswY3NrWTVtQkhySm5ONzBuekZ1TlMxcW54OUlsVzdmTkdlZnNvTFVITVM3?= =?utf-8?B?bHNXT0UxMzZBZ3RHcEtQRllkbE9RNFRiajhKWVV2c2pHWXFDY3VGZkFLV2gr?= =?utf-8?B?TkFQS0dhdjRIM0lpM1RQa2FHbXFmM0lSdmhMYjlJd2d0aEVlMnR1am9PTkx1?= =?utf-8?Q?zWTQczxY0bG4Dru8=3D?= arc-seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Ya6uHeWjSnyfO4QkQ34DDy5pVqs52uHn1vnqs2NU1ldTZpuUjVtfARZL8P06hcHZcmMQ/DFB802JJqlxEsENW7bDHA8QFly6EyPFjsBuzuQB9YoJDSvFn83d8AcvB9yytBo1YE4Q2GW1zZR6jxaBlDPXzT9zyGljVEPMhIxzie0r8bGXUk4gCMPrIOI7J1/1RvR9MoTdWmgRqJiNhxW2TJa7Xl4D5Xt4FFvT5kGpZepf9b/fu0CUSG8o42+8lcIcT6VZt4EY1Wh+pCEgiLVfdA4kZXQ3r/eyo4zyEnU3M3VLor6xOEgorqCCpVNxssHFyhMqymXPqyf07+TZF7pUPg== arc-message-signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=IDeoClnmt25PhvhUMTVxa1iDIbuwhH9x6twB8xNx9P0=; b=fK1vyL+sUjSxB/6ftkYBVEYjVCbciuCH09lWaZl+lcm2s1ZF5I5R1DX9ApRuo0oOOgpdMffME/UkR8hhhmOxRo5GVEyVkeYkS/3MweVKeM2emckmPIH/l+b/LdXVN9Y7B2GXG6GxbtqevUrpf8ut25mP8C6aIAA2T8g8WWaFKWw98wH/aAX1vadmZ1zeAiTLBfruTJwgeB3roBmREt03xDB1NxJg/O4RryjJPH4u1rGp5NKROZecBxXfPvAmq0vCVL8iaP0l+2W378MHZ0ZlTsf2C/+T4zKId83c8IvFHhKkDLfezRwJZ7hdQ4uz5CJoQSGuRRcHEhpZlnJq4fUGug== arc-authentication-results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cable.comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=cable.comcast.com; arc=none x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authas: Internal x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authsource: MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-network-message-id: 3fe55ac3-0202-4db1-0178-08d9da906b47 x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jan 2022 14:40:05.7388 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: GH7dVX+75i3kWi1gfBP6BAtkNOmxD9fLEKbAdKp9ShasRJWYh0W4iPUR4Q9s+3IgVJAmjKf7Rmv3f2THvhBXmlXpeCAv87jcAq04vqaR0kM= x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: SN6PR11MB3278 x-originatororg: cable.comcast.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWS X-Proofpoint-GUID: fEYU1BudPTbGUMccHHn0JmZSlrOBtXa0 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: fEYU1BudPTbGUMccHHn0JmZSlrOBtXa0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2022-01-18_04,2022-01-18_01,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:40:45 -0000 PiAgICBNYXliZSBhICdpZXRmLWNvdmlkJyBsaXN0Pw0KDQoxMTMtYXR0ZW5kZWVzIHdpbGwgc29v biBiZSBhY3RpdmUgYW5kIHRoaXMgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiB3aWxsIHNoaWZ0IHRoZXJlLiBJIGFtIG5v dCBzdXJlIGEgZ2VuZXJhbCBsaXN0IG1ha2VzIHNlbnNlIGhlcmUsIGJlY2F1c2UgdGhlIHJ1bGVz IGFyZSBnb2luZyB0byBiZSBzbyBzcGVjaWZpYyB0byBhIGxvY2F0aW9uIGFuZCBkYXRlIChlLmcu LCBhIG1lZXRpbmcpLg0KDQpKTA0KDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Jan 18 07:02:21 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38B213A0B70 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 07:02:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SKFoBax75LCR for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 07:02:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com [148.163.141.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12BEF3A1548 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 07:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0156894.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with ESMTP id 20IDtTtL030632; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:01:10 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=20190412; bh=1+xIuLZFcMUT23+ix2EF9wdhtJPTOlWRQHXW45K6+eA=; b=ClfKbBVxPU5BtRos1NfUuZV9UjidSg8Qa5FGCQYRZB9z+KHYxJbdxgUCc/tAOf5fYy95 aP2HdoW5KftPU2D6j88b4tdTxrzjW0DoT+TNQWc45EuuV+K8zdOjYo0foFadD0RPhfih 8dmQooVrXWxRzuuO2xuMFIU9/sKYglJUKKeIicUQrju2V7gFsYx4LlytFgnKa6YaErFN U2l/heHKui7eYw0jpKF9uxf/ABOyJ433GqzgY7SDrQQ702TWMpX632G4HiV03xHFl+48 bA3jH5HdXMGMNJHY7otkHkcCTJAGe89ihilDeUGGnYnQ4ZSp0//TKrIUk/vpsrSDoHdT Pg== Received: from copdcexc37.cable.comcast.com (dlppfpt-po-1p.slb.comcast.com [96.99.226.137]) by mx0b-00143702.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3dn94hqvth-15 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:01:10 -0500 Received: from copdcexc33.cable.comcast.com (147.191.125.132) by COPDCEXC37.cable.comcast.com (147.191.125.136) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.20; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 08:00:59 -0700 Received: from COPDCEXEDGE01.cable.comcast.com (96.114.158.213) by copdcexc33.cable.comcast.com (147.191.125.132) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.20 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 08:00:59 -0700 Received: from NAM04-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.73.169) by webmail.comcast.com (96.114.158.213) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.26; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 08:00:54 -0700 Received: from MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:f3::22) by BL0PR11MB3441.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:6a::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4888.10; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 15:00:51 +0000 Received: from MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a148:cf13:f00:c1ac]) by MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a148:cf13:f00:c1ac%5]) with mapi id 15.20.4888.014; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 15:00:51 +0000 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Alexandre Petrescu , Lars Eggert , "manycouches@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) Thread-Index: AQHYDC74ruQ/X+dz30CIOPMPBSmD+qxoVn4AgAADDACAAAPBAIAAMN0AgAAgNICAAAzpAP//0OmA Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 15:00:51 +0000 Message-ID: <77F12F59-DA86-453B-9B43-963E3075E74B@cable.comcast.com> References: <6B0C8618-2BC1-4F4C-91A7-5CB86A14E382@eggert.org> <6a869c98-2042-d9b9-74d5-09f3af1bf0ef@gmail.com> <0AEA5B7F-CA54-4BE2-84F1-357ACB518BC4@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.57.22011101 x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 8449b1aa-37dd-4396-9c05-08d9da9351cc x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL0PR11MB3441:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(2616005)(83380400001)(5660300002)(86362001)(122000001)(966005)(38100700002)(66446008)(82960400001)(110136005)(38070700005)(33656002)(508600001)(186003)(66574015)(71200400001)(6512007)(2906002)(6486002)(66476007)(66556008)(8936002)(8676002)(66946007)(76116006)(64756008)(6506007)(316002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?utf-8?B?Ny9mMHQ1WlNCMHc2VURXdmdEMFZBTTkrUnhaR2NybjZraWVpUEJkMXBTbjJR?= =?utf-8?B?a1dseHV1ZmNCVjJCM1VNU1h1N3VqZG55am9LT0ppaEQ0NWQ5NUFYZ0dIOXVV?= =?utf-8?B?SHJzV1lFYU5LbEIyQ3RqSlpUMDk3NG5OaWIwdWRDZlBXeUFDbnpiSDVNdHdY?= =?utf-8?B?YmxQMWpyTlBPcEEyLzJ0OE9EYkptSFRzKy9RNW1mVTVlbFhCUEI5TU5YVDcw?= =?utf-8?B?Ynpac3ZoVU5Ucm5aYm5KV3VqYTRFWXpyUEd5VDJLcktSaEw4elY5b2ZOVS84?= =?utf-8?B?QTA5b0RURmlZQzI0MW5DUDhKaExodUdSZ1JqTkg2Z3E3ZStPOEFXTnF4TUlw?= =?utf-8?B?OGtUbjhFK0d4dVdQZklidnRoQkIyVWlTZEZYN1U2V2JobzMzcWdNM1hwUnlM?= =?utf-8?B?MW1tYmVKTTVOcmo2UU5MSmFNbk5qSmZFWWx4dzZ5Vmx4UWZHMTk1eGtEbnRh?= =?utf-8?B?NW40QUpiVldhK1loczUyZmRnZ28rdEUrZ1FtZkhQVWVoc1FZRkV2d3pPVXBU?= =?utf-8?B?aTUwQ25ONzc0ZExsalo5WEEybUd3ekZQZGlWOUxtRVpjSUM4Q2M5aE5mZndK?= =?utf-8?B?dGZDZTUzSVVHeUxzKzlsNm0wZkpaMXpiOUVUZmNnVjBQRndkYjBCVWZSM1Ny?= =?utf-8?B?SklEZ2I3Sm5pY1hNaWxMU2dpN3ZvL2ZLNC8xeEpDNjVFV1pRSXpTNCtoT3Nr?= =?utf-8?B?cVZhdzZTZ3VPcG8xUDlKSDRYc2s0M1FjYWFoSms1R2xEa0EzeDEvYm1kTHFF?= =?utf-8?B?Q0pFMTRqc2pWMGVQYVQxaStRZGFEKzVLa2VQTHVldjNjekw3VjM4RlBCUmtz?= =?utf-8?B?cWhSQUl4SHhqakhOWWNtT1VmbDNlSUYwcUU3SDNwRmlBdXVDa2FpNjM5bFQ3?= =?utf-8?B?SytLNXFmUUdhQlBGL2VQb2tlVFlPQ1V1eW96ampzNWV5aDBFbjNMNWw1QzBn?= =?utf-8?B?TWhSOUgwRDJyM2M2WktFZnF6QlBDd21SME1sSTVTRFJJQUtyd1BpR2VwbmdJ?= =?utf-8?B?K3VCZXRQelNTbmo1WXF0R1ZiNVB5QitSc0xlRFlITm9VSFl0QTZWbW5OMlg5?= =?utf-8?B?NzhEbnY5eE05MDY5cUNWMk1GUDZ5b2RCcllDb2J0SWdsdDFWcjlnVHV3WXU2?= =?utf-8?B?VlVOT0dQN1luWjJjSnkzeEFPQzN5cTFmT2p5Yy9jQVJLMkxqMGpsb0pIQy82?= =?utf-8?B?NUtTQVl5SFlYSndncWFTbElUdWJueGYrZ05aRGJPbnpoMjFzUGFKSU5OUVdN?= =?utf-8?B?VEIxays0MldUcTZIUUg2NEtoMFZPcWxQY3VNV3NaT2RjbGV4QnFDbllXTFRz?= =?utf-8?B?aUd3TFNNK1lPbkozRGc4TElYUHh5QzJ4ejFENmZLM0sxUllHL1U0RnhDZ3RX?= =?utf-8?B?bFExL05FT1lqQTlOQjB2RFR2aTVVM0JDeWlwb285QjEzempRbDlkTnorM2Rz?= =?utf-8?B?NytHeE9WMVNRa2xQM1lVbWdYZ0ZzVmdGMllvMEp0S09nSWF2eTB3MEFFNWlx?= =?utf-8?B?cGduNHhNU0cyZmhOZzRHcEhWbUc5T1NNTm1ZQ3FoZ1hJekt3Mkp4d1dCMUlo?= =?utf-8?B?MmZqa1dEeEFjQmVxc0d4bDZqUWI5YWpGaVhpdzhVQnF1MHptQll5dmV4WllX?= =?utf-8?B?Q01OeEVheFJOMlNJSVdsYVlHck1jZ29vZ2k4NXQxWnR1OVN5SlBxaDJpWFZK?= =?utf-8?B?TWdEeEh5QktKdXhuNjJyYm9sdGtFd3lHQ1FQUTBRdEwwY3BSeGcyTXJXOTFO?= =?utf-8?B?ZzhsSDFyQVY0S2dNOW8reDJadHpRa0xacHQ5SXVxcnF0OG9PaTkxUG1aWkhH?= =?utf-8?B?MVNoQkhETjlERjF3Wm4zOXYwd3lkRUNyUmpmNGxleThQajZxeFV0eUpla3dX?= =?utf-8?B?RkZrMGc1YXk2eFdpRThxVk5tbEhmUnFGaXpXQzNLdlAwdHRUMGZ5dVRLVWxL?= =?utf-8?B?SS8wMmJqZjRlbHNLNHVJTFVMQUl5Nk5UMi9yMjlObWlvU1M3RjFMWEVJTmZD?= =?utf-8?B?d2VyV0hwVHQ4SVFRek45eFNiM0E0WHJYa0w3bElRVytzVUhXeU1ENWI4VTdJ?= =?utf-8?B?OGsraDhOWXg4emVTQjRteEQ5VWJOSDFqVkpxQkJvOWkrY2dhcysxTkdaMkNK?= =?utf-8?B?RkZzemw5cmozK2FoamZTbXhTbFV4dCtQODUxUDdNYitER2xKbmx4bHBROUk1?= =?utf-8?B?QXY1R0RqT2xuci9wRmdjb1FJYmxKbEt0a0o4aE9Yb2hsMDJybDV6NlNTN0VL?= =?utf-8?B?emxuNFU1YS9PZUFiOXVTd01lRlRBbitGTjk4RlVLdjNBZ1pGTmJ4a25EbzRY?= =?utf-8?B?anVZcGI0Q2FOUm1pSGRQdTczK2xMQkI2TzFOaVJUQXkzZlJyTGRDSnk1WXhX?= =?utf-8?Q?ryNc/gAgB6YJ3aV8=3D?= arc-seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=GeWSeemaijPG10XPAPQH0NbEFhGJi7TMck2uHkLukHAj+3twmZxLMUGnfOJ2ZeI0oNsmr5t/wpenBRhzLIu5AqwryutEpLfR7q5hHRiqvQ76dXJdIi72uFbXtYJngcQEBb+RezmCQhUOYzMyZO6QAnvVwXdjaxoLPY6BZgYEBnAyNiAPDWTDO7cO0UfSqQweoR28Ihx6VOIomPUYTSGuE1nYj7io7UaVghnaFeSuHOCJ3RrTVGnMqcaw+mCVZsFiYCwX1A445/Hs7qh5A+RL4Q6kOK4TxC5DURVak6NhqO1M8WEjjLAiRtvbxR9u4HKg0qSvP+sUZSc++SUFdkBCMg== arc-message-signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=kOg1/rafIukfZRCYfjePpVa3DUvmKdbUR5b2OY7Z+EY=; b=c1h3s3T7AWSiZqff3ISUI0li6OHtwSbq2ZIM0jfJJRjw4EMPXWn+GNHaQT8EQiO47quYyJQkRT4lxri6CWE5e1VneFWyL03mhSUpz8Lp51uvsamn4xirIHa91D//xYA7nkq1Uoab9lumxP53w6Z6N5Vwli3zMeaH3cDEvRjtnNef2wjZQ5uhDCdvHLfEWC6rZvekUCSOiLboXl5ff/j2plXhYt68LH7iCh074zOlhKU++EtiULIuGqsMypCLgnH39uUG3g37IrvglDsXNrcnKTf3Xz30Bl47NPozJ5WNdi13CTBUzm499QAyB2uXXcEeBXJUzaSjKtQCLNwuHX6YbA== arc-authentication-results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cable.comcast.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cable.comcast.com; dkim=pass header.d=cable.comcast.com; arc=none x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authas: Internal x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-authsource: MN2PR11MB3709.namprd11.prod.outlook.com x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-network-message-id: 8449b1aa-37dd-4396-9c05-08d9da9351cc x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jan 2022 15:00:51.4798 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 906aefe9-76a7-4f65-b82d-5ec20775d5aa x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: igZ4YGdyJQ6Atp0Qfqv4NrrvWRoL4R2t3COsHBgdNs2V3+4a0+uqa00Dp5uIBZmP5mTxyTeFQZ1shIX+0Rzq714zVw9YvOhCihZaKJZCjRQ= x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: BL0PR11MB3441 x-originatororg: cable.comcast.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <6BA1DD2091E9A84A87BED008531ADA72@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward AAETWC X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 86N1C9IoNRvm809yYvdPNR0qRW9QhX54 X-Proofpoint-GUID: 86N1C9IoNRvm809yYvdPNR0qRW9QhX54 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2022-01-18_04,2022-01-18_01,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Reason: safe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 15:02:20 -0000 PiBIb3dldmVyLCB0aGV5LCBhcyBvdGhlciBzaW1pbGFyIHBsYWNlcywgYXJlIGh1cnJ5aW5nIHRv IGNyZWF0ZSBwcm90b2NvbHMNCiAgICB3aXRob3V0IGNvbnN1bHRhdGlvbiBhdCBsYXJnZS4gIFRo ZW4gcHJvYmxlbXMgYXJpc2UgYXQgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb24uDQogICAgVGhlbiBiZXR0ZXIgcHJv dG9jb2xzIGNvbWUgb3V0Lg0KDQpJIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgaXQgaXMgY2hhbGxlbmdpbmcgJiBmcnVz dHJhdGluZyB3aGVuIG5hdGlvbmFsIGFuZCBsb2NhbCBnb3Zlcm5tZW50IGhlYWx0aCBndWlkYW5j ZSBzaGlmdHMsIG9mdGVuIHN1ZGRlbmx5IGFuZCB3aXRob3V0IG5vdGljZSwgaW4gcmVzcG9uc2Ug dG8gYSBzaGlmdGluZyB2aXJ1cy4gV2UgYXJlIGFsbCBjb2xsZWN0aXZlbHkgZG9pbmcgb3VyIGJl c3QgdG8gbWFuYWdlIHRoaXMgY2hhbmdlIGFuZCBwcm92aWRlIHRoZSBtb3N0IHVwIHRvIGRhdGUg YW5kIGFjY3VyYXRlIGd1aWRhbmNlLg0KDQpUaGVzZSBhcmUgdW5wcmVjZWRlbnRlZCB0aW1lcyBv ZiB1bmNlcnRhaW50eS4gRXZlcnlvbmUgZnJvbSB0aGUgTk9DIHRlYW0gdG8gdGhlIFNlY3JldGFy aWF0LCB0aGUgSUVTRywgTExDIHN0YWZmICYgYm9hcmQsIGFuZCBtYW55IG90aGVycyBhcmUgZG9p bmcgdGhlaXIgYmVzdCB0byB3b3JrIG91dCB0aGUgZGV0YWlscyBhcyB0aGUgaGVhbHRoIHNpdHVh dGlvbiAmIHJ1bGVzIHNoaWZ0IC0tIGFuZCBoYXZlIHRoZSBiZXN0IGludGVyZXN0cyBvZiB0aGUg SUVURiBjb21tdW5pdHkgaW4gbWluZCBhcyB0aGV5IGRvIHNvLg0KDQo+ICAgIFdoYXQgSSBuZWVk IGlzIHRoZSB0ZW1wb3JhcnkgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gYWJvdXQgY292aWQgdG8gYmUgdW5kZXJzdG9v ZCBpbg0KICAgIGEgc2FtZSBtYW5uZXIgYXMgSSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHRoZSB0ZWNobmljYWwgdG9w aWMgYXQgSUVURi4gIFRoYXQgY291bGQNCiAgICBiZSBhbiBhZHZhbnRhZ2UgZm9yIG1lLCBwZXJz b25hbGx5LiAgSW4gdGhhdCBzZW5zZSwgYW4gZW1haWwgbGlzdCAobm90IGENCiAgICBXRyBlbWFp bCBsaXN0KSBhdCBJRVRGIGFuZCB3aXRoIElFVEZlcnMgbWlnaHQgYmUgYWR2YW50YWdlb3VzIGZv ciBtZS4NCg0KVGhlIFNlY3JldGFyaWF0IGFscmVhZHkgaGFzIHRoZSBDT1ZJRCBpbmZvcm1hdGlv biBwYWdlIGZvciB0aGUgMTEzdGggbWVldGluZyBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9ob3cvbWVl dGluZ3MvMTEzL2NvdmlkLXJlbGF0ZWQtcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzLyBhbmQgYXQgbGFzdCB3ZWVrJ3Mg SUVURiBMTEMgYm9hcmQgbWVldGluZyB0aGV5IGV4cGxhaW5lZCB0aGV5IHBsYW4gdG8gbGF1bmNo IGFuIGV4dGVuc2l2ZSBGQVEgb24gdGhpcyBhcyB3ZWxsLCB3aGljaCB3b3VsZCBiZSByZWd1bGFy bHkgdXBkYXRlZCBhcyB0aGluZ3MgY2hhbmdlIG9yIG1vcmUgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gYmVjb21lcyBh dmFpbGFibGUuIEZpbmFsbHksIHRoZXkgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGFza2VkIHRvIGFjdGl2YXRlIHRoZSAx MTMtYXR0ZW5kZWVzIGxpc3QgZWFybHkgZ2l2ZW4gdGhhdCB0aGlzIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gaXMgaGln aGx5IHNwZWNpZmljIHRvIHRoZSBDT1ZJRCByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMvcHJhY3RpY2VzIGZvciB0aGF0 IG1lZXRpbmcgKHByaW9yIHRvIHJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbiwgd2hpY2ggaXMgZGVsYXllZCBkdWUgdG8g Y29udmVyc2lvbiB0byBhIG5ldyBWQVQgdmVuZG9yIC0gSSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoZSB0YXJnZXQgZm9y IHJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbiBtYXkgYmUgMjQgSmFudWFyeSwgc3ViamVjdCB0byBjaGFuZ2UpLg0KDQo+ ICAgIElmIHRoYXQgaXMgbm90IHBvc3NpYmxlLCB0aGVuIGFsbCBvbmUgY2FuIGRvIGlzIHRhbGsg YWJvdXQgJ2NvdmlkJyB3aGVuDQogICAgdGFsa2luZyBob3cgdG8gcGxhbiB0byBnbyB0byBtZWV0 aW5nLCBldGMuICBUaGF0IGNhbiBiZSBkb25lIGluIGENCiAgICBzZXBhcmF0ZSBlbWFpbCBsaXN0 Lg0KDQpJdCBpcyBwZXJoYXBzIGVhc3kgZm9yIHVzIGFsbCB0byBkaWdyZXNzIGludG8gYSBkZWJh dGUgb3ZlciB3aGF0IGlzIHRoZSByaWdodCBvciBiZXN0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdCAtIGJ1dCB3ZSBh cmUgcXVpdGUgY2xvc2UgdG8gMTEzIGFuZCBoYXZlIG11Y2ggZGV0YWlsIHRvIGRpc2N1c3MgdG9n ZXRoZXIuIDstKSBBcyBzb21lb25lIHBlcnNvbmFsbHkgd2hvIGhhcyBhIHJhdGhlciBwcmFnbWF0 aWMgb3IgcHJhY3RpY2FsIG9yaWVudGF0aW9uLCBJIGNlcnRhaW5seSBhcHByZWNpYXRlIGJlaW5n IGFibGUgdG8gaGF2ZSBhIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gb2YgdGhlIGltbWVkaWF0ZSBpc3N1ZXMgd2l0aCAx MTMgb24gYSAxMTMtc3BlY2lmaWMgbGlzdC4gUGVyaGFwcyB0aGVuLCBiYXNlZCBvbiB3aGF0IHdl IGFzIGEgY29tbXVuaXR5IGxlYXJuICYgb2JzZXJ2ZSBmcm9tIHRoaXMgZXhwZXJpZW5jZSwgd2Ug Y2FuIGFsbCBkZWNpZGUgaG93IHRvIHByb2NlZWQgaW4gdGhlIGZ1dHVyZSBhbmQgd2hldGhlciB0 aGVyZSBhcmUgbW9yZSBnZW5lcmFsaXplZCBpc3N1ZXMgdGhhdCBuZWNlc3NpdGF0ZSBhIG5ldyBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3Qgb3IgbmV3IFdHIG9yIHdoYXRldmVyLiBNYXliZSB0aGlzIHdpbGwgYmUgdGhl IGNhc2UsIG9yIG1heWJlIG5vdC4gQnV0IGluIHRoZSBtZWFudGltZSB0aGVyZSBhcmUgYSBsb3Qg b2YgaW1tZWRpYXRlIGFuZCBwcmFjdGljYWwgaXNzdWVzIHRoYXQgd2UgYWxsIG5lZWQgdG8gd29y ayB0b2dldGhlciB0byBzb3J0IG91dCBhcyB3ZSBwcmVwYXJlIGZvciAxMTMuDQoNCkpMDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Jan 18 09:52:27 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3410C3A099F for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:52:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v0bpUAupwjQ0 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x434.google.com (mail-pf1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE3AC3A08B4 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x434.google.com with SMTP id 78so13688294pfu.10 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:52:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=lve1JiTEHsOX9xk0AgqYS/JyVF/JE92thzOa77MHu+8=; b=qQn5/ivChqJRYuI7jm1xYAtp6tlqOlRDXxhucRTFNtpSnSq3dsvnQNK/yw4YQpnjmy 66gC6Yz4G4jpfn4e83FlfcJJpvr4T5kQaL+dvuJBN7WUqvE7IQrumO4CjR9iSTXjYOvy hbYAhZdk57WiFT7Wum3DJ9ggMj2khPF5cFyjmlc16bS1Ri/YhNWarR0E9HmZMcS6SLEP m6vTZ90FsFGnbMFftcR5zn8JV9hQaMwziMRbUQ6jDjuDszSCajFUdWcQbDCRIva1uZj4 qGjo/m07a50YcFMeRHzfy+wIgeh/i5GnT5n0TRA4zpxfZgfrKzb4I5EEZ4VN9sgk8xhE h84w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=lve1JiTEHsOX9xk0AgqYS/JyVF/JE92thzOa77MHu+8=; b=6zTLoBV75DuR1BhNGyk3XQou4JqHJX7xd+x1oD7OEukfbCtlv1p6nwBOPE3YdsmlIl kNn/2/gJpsPFlJsI2O08M1KEicM4jCoG3yzVKfI7s3rzel9MFKtF9rehSqARFWbJlrvV JJu6hoqJgyW534qBl0VdV865DCBNCsVHRBIwq8PQRbXik0+ML5F7hxGtq7NOy97YZBq2 GolnCimIcGpTgYSq8r6azocDJ72wR5A76oIrLGRAaf343OJRjRlGGeizj+0W9NBEwNvZ h9Qb6OOyi+EyBNFyYvpJT0kyRC6gZHxoidCwiwmPvVw2KyJnKy7R9YWcwWmrJH77D1/W tH2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532cjCIyjhzfMEVrSQD6I4hOFL9CQ1nGOccB/H86jH3uCewaljgu U//wMvKK/vt20z1yaVvoIqpZaTt2TLM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwF+mGPHtwDaYIsoCLCXuNExsiCX1H6a92R9DXv6xfAJL1g0WgoqtPacSiRkm9bAFGOj1k0fA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:22c6:b0:4c1:e27b:ab61 with SMTP id f6-20020a056a0022c600b004c1e27bab61mr26447802pfj.79.1642528339626; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:52:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:8801:d008:8c00:25cb:3b49:f571:a2b1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e3sm14931466pgm.51.2022.01.18.09.52.18 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:52:18 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Message-Id: <87155161-1E72-4C8D-8B61-7995F20BFB92@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:52:17 -0800 To: shmoo X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] California Vaccine Record X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 17:52:25 -0000 This is https://myvaccinerecord.cdph.ca.gov I have been looking around for European views on the California QR Code, = and asking about US access to the European record. I carry such a code = in the wallet in my phone and can show it to whomever asks. However, I = am not convinced that anyone in Europe can verify the QR Code, which is = probably necessary for them to accept it as valid.=20 Note that I am not accusing anyone of negligence here. I presume that = this will all become clear once I enter Austria, but (since I don't = know), I am concerned that it may become clear that the code I carry is = not accepted and I have no means to fix the situation. If it is not = accepted, what do I do instead? So: is the California QR code accepted? If not, what is required?= From nobody Tue Jan 18 10:01:50 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietf.org Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF28A3A0A62; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:01:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Duke via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: shmoo-chairs@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.42.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Martin Duke Message-ID: <164252890784.22597.10136089296552565648@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:01:48 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Martin Duke's Block on charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 18:01:49 -0000 Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: Block When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-shmoo/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BLOCK: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I have trouble seeing what high-level principles a BCP regarding compliance with health policies will enumerate. Isn't it pretty much "do what the health authorities tell us to do"? Is the intent to establish red lines to cancel (but cancellation criteria are out of scope). Or is it to have principles for rationing access to the venue when capacity see drops? Please clarify what the intent is here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I suspect that a strong consensus to change the meeting cadence will be elusive, but as the charter has that qualifier it's fine to include it. From nobody Tue Jan 18 10:44:51 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 309043A10EB for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:44:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.813 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.813 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MCJkaS7OtAG7 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:44:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A7C73A10E8 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:44:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id o135so17307qke.8 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:44:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:content-language:to:cc :references:from:subject:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UUQRAN4jsItqPzxmgLWdhCDkvfrabiAWyL9YAqTqrKs=; b=YBzBUchcdOd+e3FiiKpp7qyr4DEOz4T1SjGk291xCbkdio/5NUZTALGGUip9JXgbrb Qqf8ct93FvTGiKTNWqoqHUECeqDn4vgEAtk/j75yoyE6DnwWhOzJTQw7zzwYnJlVgxzw BBIwYsG/o8/5rbB8rN85JfvzWu+05F8fdl3Po= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent :content-language:to:cc:references:from:subject:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=UUQRAN4jsItqPzxmgLWdhCDkvfrabiAWyL9YAqTqrKs=; b=kN0Lzjhks3ciHBfpqRYqk69hpetRwUQ5jzhL43jjCEp0V3fTuKWhJPn76Qw3ielfbd wbHtpflcswwub1mL+ANMeX0XYEPVveIDLoDpb2JRYSU4hKAbPW1+5XV4KA93GYh52/Vl MZ/rRy6ueuUUQWmCRENiE6HoAMm8YjB1ERNGroYL7cWXNOA4V+9FCL6nkjRJh2MPq+Go KpCS4plmb5FUDtuAlBulMSxlQM9VEYd+XRVrzgxNMqIkBYeO4kfwNknVGfbe1UlV41P1 JC4whxLSpnUNT6libuS3ZdsXJ9GyqXr18/nrqviXJ9DfypbnGN06hVPJH6BRRvOP8bIe Spbg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5319j6AQwcC4eztgyLIF6SMlzRzVz5WuLCEULKkaKiZ1qr7p9Ziq TyInjEQTXxs689KdCoP6CUYyjg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwcVaq4goyV/CI5G0yY5xfnDk8PoxA7FVRiVKntTOSnR0XYDJG0KdOFk6sc4Qzg4dRaxvwQvg== X-Received: by 2002:ae9:ee0a:: with SMTP id i10mr19339660qkg.7.1642531484587; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:44:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.3.86] ([50.239.129.122]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s8sm1199064qkp.114.2022.01.18.10.44.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Jan 2022 10:44:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <966807eb-cd75-166d-2695-6177d6c20c32@cdt.org> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:44:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:96.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/96.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Martin Duke , The IESG Cc: shmoo-chairs@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org References: <164252890784.22597.10136089296552565648@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Mallory Knodel In-Reply-To: <164252890784.22597.10136089296552565648@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Martin Duke's Block on charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 18:44:49 -0000 Hi Martin, Others probably have comments, but "health authorities" is clearly not a monolith. Deciding who to take as an authority would be within scope. Additionally the guidance from one authority, say the CDC in the US, can be confusing and in need of simplification, or in the scope of shmoo an agreed upon approach to simplification. And even if we imagine that there is one authority with clear guidance, some of the guidance might be irrelevant, or needing interpretation, or the guidance might make recommendations based on the situation for which the IETF event would then need to consider which advice to follow, which from a high level approach would be in scope for shmoo. -Mallory On 1/18/22 1:01 PM, Martin Duke via Datatracker wrote: > Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: Block > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-shmoo/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > BLOCK: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have trouble seeing what high-level principles a BCP regarding compliance > with health policies will enumerate. Isn't it pretty much "do what the health > authorities tell us to do"? Is the intent to establish red lines to cancel (but > cancellation criteria are out of scope). Or is it to have principles for > rationing access to the venue when capacity see drops? Please clarify what the > intent is here. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I suspect that a strong consensus to change the meeting cadence will be > elusive, but as the charter has that qualifier it's fine to include it. > > > -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Tue Jan 18 11:45:28 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD803A134C for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:45:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fqtv51E1-XT8 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:45:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102c.google.com (mail-pj1-x102c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A4F73A1348 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:45:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id 59-20020a17090a09c100b001b34a13745eso3698935pjo.5 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:45:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=MswksH5+OTr7mNGQ7cWXW19NWmZyKAXv33BcPcxAk+I=; b=Fwtkk5hjzfQhiCcuCNEhXj0XE7Rzi974OOw5zGGJs5kHrjDooU9xnqYkdv1alkOHzz QP82iFoXkizfOxjOKTng/iZz8hXGEyrLe8pzYKt0+N0VWdtgpuc+O9QbSSEQFcDZcUMe UQsyftaZqPz7E/E2cZCGL0oIqVslm46skPqyr6po8lZLF1v8V1/o2TkaO/buPkcRjhq2 UzH3uHIFy5gVEelICoG7UtaaHvVgDNPt3lSTrY6edhIF68ui31g2vQYefmj4BsBzdNJB PEYlQCYPFa5PzofKBwGMiCBDBPgohSNeM4Ua4OOzf3+282aDT/chxb816MZ5hMwTqlPu Xhpw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=MswksH5+OTr7mNGQ7cWXW19NWmZyKAXv33BcPcxAk+I=; b=GgLq8iQ6r9Fz+RGQh6+2xSwjl62+ke0Pj+4aQ5F0ms7P2miHm6NR3QC1u2cHWr4QQY VG8lT/BjDdllqH7rhlZQ6DbKsLtkYiUtjJhZ+En8nsFt0XIo/rgmoJzItR2p5I3hmCos Yfuptmu5He8vNFqQwmIlte5Zd4yiHI9K9jYkpzyBP8A25S23Rqu4m8zgWSjgbncMzDJr MSTebq+4kpTLtFjgxE9+f27EgbhiWG6Kb1dlxTDKcANuK5usT1QN1zGrofZnT4BST5Lj CbiJHWzmz5N2zkifRLZeQI12vZm+sXLC7vkOmGMfWiQJ4GvUvVA6tvnhw1qcXs/ZG42Q RYoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5336cx/eboehhx2SeQSwjL7wvdDfulArT1As2QnRu6ySkn66MeYb fy+HJ8nFUelJp7uWhRhkwSw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx97x2JUPWUB8/vngqh3jD2WfFv6Ni7vnGD3moOkWuuIAxA0OHKQ5PnpgpI37e0jfJAep7X/w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:c242:b0:14a:a9a6:4cb0 with SMTP id 2-20020a170902c24200b0014aa9a64cb0mr15244513plg.36.1642535122505; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:8801:d008:8c00:25cb:3b49:f571:a2b1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t2sm3622202pjf.0.2022.01.18.11.45.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:45:22 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <9c92993e-0a91-e8d2-bae5-d57292941b49@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:45:20 -0800 Cc: shmoo Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <96B44A39-DFAD-4285-A68C-34771AF39CE9@gmail.com> References: <9c92993e-0a91-e8d2-bae5-d57292941b49@gmail.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_cha?= =?utf-8?q?rter-ietf-shmoo-01-00=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 19:45:26 -0000 > On Jan 18, 2022, at 1:51 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >=20 > If the testing at the end of the meeting shows entirely negative > results, and provided that all were tested extensively, then it can be > deduced that repeating the same protocol at the next IETF in-person > meeting would promise the same encouraging results. That is the > promise. If there is any such, I would suggest that the LLC review the testing = done by the city of Vienna. If I understand correctly, any meeting with = 500 or more participants is required to have a daily PCR test for each = individual; we will submit to that *daily* while there. If there are any = cases that trace back to the meeting, that would be a failure, and = otherwise it would have to be considered a success. I don't know that it is repeatable as stated, as I don't know that every = city has that plan of action. Repeating it without that would require = that the IETF itself have everyone tested, perhaps daily, at every = meeting forever. The question I would ask is: at whose cost? This begins = to sound like an insurmountable requirement if the cost per testing = event is significantly greater than zero. Or, perhaps all meetings in = the future have to be held in Vienna. I guess, Alexandre, what might help is a clear statement from you of = what solution would be acceptable to you - what would you consider to be = "good enough"? I'm approaching the conclusion that there is in fact no = acceptable algorithm. If that is the case, maybe you should participate = remotely.= From nobody Tue Jan 18 12:24:53 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAD073A1498 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:24:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lp94-kr7DBCg for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03D03A1496 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 12:24:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1642537484; x=1643142284; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=PKYtB9FT cEtmZjWrnU5JN7UhBo4vjAbD7/xk4nUIBGY=; b=nT+O6plk9jCcQJp6mOQMQq+O FXpG5cVWAQvS12OeH4WOWKI09VkbGGCQj8bHdOuCkAJpoN38/1rYume3cq+wZj6x cc+xvFksmQbPLNKZ33bfdbXbH/6uUOSY5QKEMT3lXDdzuMNRs58neRaEDan3vRlZ poVkCcVqvxdguzW4u4k= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 18 Jan 2022 21:24:44 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 18 Jan 2022 21:24:43 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.144] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50000788628.msg for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 21:24:42 +0100 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:59af:95a3:10cb:55b2 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.144] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 21:24:42 +0100 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1017a2fd87=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: manycouches@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.58.22011201 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 21:24:37 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: shmoo Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Manycouches] =?UTF-8?B?w4lyaWM=?= Vyncke's No Objection on charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: (with COMMENT) References: <9c92993e-0a91-e8d2-bae5-d57292941b49@gmail.com> <96B44A39-DFAD-4285-A68C-34771AF39CE9@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <96B44A39-DFAD-4285-A68C-34771AF39CE9@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_cha?= =?utf-8?q?rter-ietf-shmoo-01-00=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 20:24:53 -0000 Because we are meeting in different countries, with each own different juri= sdiction (besides some areas like EU that typically will share "most of the= rules"), we can't and must not set any "own" rules. We are just bound to t= he venue rules and those can change even right in the middle of the meeting= , we like it or not. So, no, I don't think the LLC or secretariat can set any rules. If I decide= to come to Vienna and the city/country cancel the daily testing, there is = no way the LCC can enforce that test for any participant that don't want to= accept it, as it will be just against the law (at least in most of the EU = jurisdictions). Regards, Jordi @jordipalet =20 =20 =EF=BB=BFEl 18/1/22 20:45, "Manycouches en nombre de Fred Baker" escribi=C3=B3: > On Jan 18, 2022, at 1:51 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >=20 > If the testing at the end of the meeting shows entirely negative > results, and provided that all were tested extensively, then it can b= e > deduced that repeating the same protocol at the next IETF in-person > meeting would promise the same encouraging results. That is the > promise. If there is any such, I would suggest that the LLC review the testing d= one by the city of Vienna. If I understand correctly, any meeting with 500 = or more participants is required to have a daily PCR test for each individu= al; we will submit to that *daily* while there. If there are any cases that= trace back to the meeting, that would be a failure, and otherwise it would= have to be considered a success. I don't know that it is repeatable as stated, as I don't know that ever= y city has that plan of action. Repeating it without that would require tha= t the IETF itself have everyone tested, perhaps daily, at every meeting for= ever. The question I would ask is: at whose cost? This begins to sound like= an insurmountable requirement if the cost per testing event is significant= ly greater than zero. Or, perhaps all meetings in the future have to be hel= d in Vienna. I guess, Alexandre, what might help is a clear statement from you of wh= at solution would be acceptable to you - what would you consider to be "goo= d enough"? I'm approaching the conclusion that there is in fact no acceptab= le algorithm. If that is the case, maybe you should participate remotely. _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Tue Jan 18 13:49:09 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9880A3A0DCA for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:49:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rKJ4aXCIDBUg for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:49:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 383023A0DB4 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 13:49:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20ILn1PZ028163; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 22:49:01 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C81F2086B1; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 22:49:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DED4203AED; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 22:49:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.14.0.101] ([10.14.0.101]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20ILn0rE002107; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 22:49:00 +0100 Message-ID: <5b2ec736-82b3-a61e-7e8e-622f5569ea7a@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 22:49:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: Fred Baker Cc: shmoo References: <9c92993e-0a91-e8d2-bae5-d57292941b49@gmail.com> <96B44A39-DFAD-4285-A68C-34771AF39CE9@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <96B44A39-DFAD-4285-A68C-34771AF39CE9@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_cha?= =?utf-8?q?rter-ietf-shmoo-01-00=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 21:49:09 -0000 Le 18/01/2022 à 20:45, Fred Baker a écrit : > > >> On Jan 18, 2022, at 1:51 AM, Alexandre Petrescu >> wrote: >> >> If the testing at the end of the meeting shows entirely negative >> results, and provided that all were tested extensively, then it >> can be deduced that repeating the same protocol at the next IETF >> in-person meeting would promise the same encouraging results. That >> is the promise. > > If there is any such, I would suggest that the LLC review the > testing done by the city of Vienna. I think there is a mistake in assumption here. I think it is not the City of Vienna who tests. > If I understand correctly, any meeting with 500 or more participants > is required to have a daily PCR test for each individual; we will > submit to that *daily* while there. If there are any cases that trace > back to the meeting, that would be a failure, and otherwise it would > have to be considered a success. > > I don't know that it is repeatable as stated, as I don't know that > every city has that plan of action. It is strange. I think Cities here have no plan of action about covid. It all comes from government. I might be wrong about Vienna, but I doubt the City tests everybody. It might the hotel who tests. It might be a caritative organisaiton who tests for free (Red Cross). Once the mandate of obligation of testing is there in the government ruling, there are many people who build test sites (small tents) and offer testing services. It is a lucrative business. Some times it is also outside of the law (the normal law). > Repeating it without that would require that the IETF itself have > everyone tested, perhaps daily, at every meeting forever. Yes. Maybe not forever, but yes for a long time. There is also another theory that this testing should stop now. In Spain they propose that. In UK they almost implement that. These are countries where one would be easier to have an in-person meeting without hassle in the followign weeks. But how about afterwards? Will that change again when the virus strikes again? > The question I would ask is: at whose cost? This begins to sound like > an insurmountable requirement if the cost per testing event is > significantly greater than zero. The cost question is an importnat one. The cost structure changes - someone has to bear the cost but others have less costs for other things that disappeared. It is not unsurmountable. The cost of testing (if paid by IETF) can be seen also as an investment: if IETF finds a way to meet and offer promises of no spread, then that technique can be later sold to others, to obtain a return on investment. > Or, perhaps all meetings in the future have to be held in Vienna. If Vienna does not change rules, then probably. It would be unreasonable for IETF to hold all meetings to Vienna, based on past experience, but if the question is to meet or not to meet, then a Vienna-only option might be acceptable (if, of course, it provided best health aspect too). > I guess, Alexandre, what might help is a clear statement from you of > what solution would be acceptable to you - what would you consider to > be "good enough"? I htink it is good enough to test at arrival and then daily test all. If the results are negative at the end then the same protocol should be applied next time. If the results are positive at the end then the protocol should be improved before the next time. That is a theory in which it can be acceptable. It is a mechanical acceptation. > I'm approaching the conclusion that there is in fact no acceptable > algorithm. No. There must be something. There must be a way out of this. A patiently designed protocol of meeting can be made with the least possible risk. > If that is the case, maybe you should participate remotely. Sorry, no too. That advice is perfect advice before covid. And yes, I know, several people around me, including very close ones, tell me that I am unreasonable to say that that advice is perfect before covid, because it is the same advice now too. The advice around me is the following: if some people want to do something that concerns them exclusively then so be it. Alex From nobody Tue Jan 18 14:16:28 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAD73A0F0F for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:16:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9BRaLXLEb00D for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:16:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4-g21.free.fr (smtp4-g21.free.fr [IPv6:2a01:e0c:1:1599::13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29CD63A0F09 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:16:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2a01:e0a:937:bc30::febc:8f7d] (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e0a:937:bc30::febc:8f7d]) by smtp4-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7153519F593 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 23:16:15 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 23:16:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <87155161-1E72-4C8D-8B61-7995F20BFB92@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <87155161-1E72-4C8D-8B61-7995F20BFB92@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] California Vaccine Record X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 22:16:26 -0000 Le 18/01/2022 à 18:52, Fred Baker a écrit : > This is https://myvaccinerecord.cdph.ca.gov > > I have been looking around for European views on the California QR > Code, and asking about US access to the European record. I carry > such a code in the wallet in my phone and can show it to whomever > asks. However, I am not convinced that anyone in Europe can verify > the QR Code, which is probably necessary for them to accept it as > valid. > > Note that I am not accusing anyone of negligence here. I presume > that this will all become clear once I enter Austria, but (since I > don't know), I am concerned that it may become clear that the code I > carry is not accepted and I have no means to fix the situation. If it > is not accepted, what do I do instead? > > So: is the California QR code accepted? I think we are priviledged to hold this conversation. The local worries I see is that the entire notion of QR code in Europe changes as we speak. If in recent months there was relatively agreed common way forward with these QR codes, nowadays each country goes differently. If it continues this way at this speed, these EU QR codes might become moot very soon. If before one could dream of interoperable apps that would scan all QR codes in the world, now it is not anymore any plan for that. For the particular case that you raise, I think one can try the following: try to download the app 'TousAntiCovid Verif' from google on a smartphone. Ignore the warnings about who has the right to use it. Try to scan the California QR code. I am almost sure it will not scan, in the sense it will issue some form of aighyç^"&yç"__yyyt^. IT will not complain with a syntax error, or security error, but will display garbage. IF one wants to use rather a PC or MAC to scan a EU QR Code then there are these URLs that might help to try scanning; but know that those people who are authorized to scan dont use PCs or MACs, but smartphones. https://ehealth.vyncke.org/index.php (ok on IPv6, from AD) https://certificat-covid.gov.ro/check-dcc (ok on IPv6, with security check) https://app.digitalcovidcertchecker.gov.ie/ (only on IPv4, with security check) (there are more) > If not, what is required? BAsically, one should wonder first what is the name of the vaccine that is in that QR code and the date. The name in California is most likely one of Pfizer, Moderna or J&J. Then comes the long question of the date of last vaccine. Hopefully you have that date and its number (2nd, 3rd, 4th, but there are no 5th doses administered up to now as far as I know). With these two things at hand (name of vaccine and date of last dose, and its number '2' or '3, etc) go to the algorithm in the URL https://www.austria.info/en/service-and-facts/coronavirus-information/entry-regulations Know that this Austria algorithm is hard to udnerstand at times. Also, my personal oppinion is that it is outdated right now. The end results might be the following: - dont do anything, just travel. - or get a booster before travelling. - or get a PCR and a booster before travelling. - or dont travel because what Austrians might want you to do upon arrival is to get a booster there that might be incompatible in terms of date and time and vaccine name might be contrary to what CDC might recommend (e.g. get J&J in November then get Pfizer booster in Austria in March might not be acceptable for CDC because of the 4 month being too short). It depends how you interpret the algorithm and what is the input data. I am not a medical person, but I do recommend to think health first. Alex > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Tue Jan 18 14:29:08 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6524D3A1073 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:29:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AgNokTvW8ZTO for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:29:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4-g21.free.fr (smtp4-g21.free.fr [IPv6:2a01:e0c:1:1599::13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2ADE73A1072 for ; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 14:29:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPV6:2a01:e0a:937:bc30::febc:8f7d] (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e0a:937:bc30::febc:8f7d]) by smtp4-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6310C19F4C8; Tue, 18 Jan 2022 23:28:59 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <9a88a16a-ad1b-7d7a-f111-ee9553b929d9@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 23:28:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 From: Alexandre Petrescu To: "Livingood, Jason" , Lars Eggert , "manycouches@ietf.org" References: <6B0C8618-2BC1-4F4C-91A7-5CB86A14E382@eggert.org> <6a869c98-2042-d9b9-74d5-09f3af1bf0ef@gmail.com> <0AEA5B7F-CA54-4BE2-84F1-357ACB518BC4@eggert.org> <77F12F59-DA86-453B-9B43-963E3075E74B@cable.comcast.com> Content-Language: fr In-Reply-To: <77F12F59-DA86-453B-9B43-963E3075E74B@cable.comcast.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] A suggesteon/request (was:Re: Vienna - FFP2 or at least 2 in FFP2?) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 22:29:07 -0000 Le 18/01/2022 à 16:00, Livingood, Jason a écrit : [...] > It is perhaps easy for us all to digress into a debate over what is > the right or best mailing list - but we are quite close to 113 and > have much detail to discuss together. ;-) As someone personally who > has a rather pragmatic or practical orientation, I certainly > appreciate being able to have a discussion of the immediate issues > with 113 on a 113-specific list. But, we said this covid issue is not a 113-only issue right? Second, the 113-kind of lists are attendee lists. One might want to discuss these covid issues before deciding whether or not one is an attendee of 113 (be it online or in-person attendee). Typically, one gets on a 113-attendees list after one has already registered to participate to the meeting (online or virtual), and presumably paid. No? It's the same like with the PCR tests: one should plan for an action for both cases of result of the test: if negative do this, if positive do that. > Perhaps then, based on what we as a community learn & observe from > this experience, we can all decide how to proceed in the future and > whether there are more generalized issues that necessitate a new > mailing list or new WG or whatever. Maybe this will be the case, or > maybe not. But in the meantime there are a lot of immediate and > practical issues that we all need to work together to sort out as we > prepare for 113. I do not disagree. I think you mean an email list called something like 'ietf-113-covid-aspects-preparation'? If yes, I would gladly join. Alex > > JL > From nobody Wed Jan 19 03:54:09 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B773A1A91 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 03:54:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vVS_c8tD7-84 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 03:54:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16D2D3A1A90 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 03:54:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20JBs0b1008973 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:54:00 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 52EFF2045F0 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:54:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490082045E2 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:54:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20JBs0WJ028915 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:54:00 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:54:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <164252890784.22597.10136089296552565648@ietfa.amsl.com> <966807eb-cd75-166d-2695-6177d6c20c32@cdt.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <966807eb-cd75-166d-2695-6177d6c20c32@cdt.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Martin Duke's Block on charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:54:08 -0000 Le 18/01/2022 à 19:44, Mallory Knodel a écrit : > Hi Martin, > > Others probably have comments, but "health authorities" is clearly > not a monolith. Deciding who to take as an authority would be within > scope. > > Additionally the guidance from one authority, say the CDC in the US, > can be confusing and in need of simplification, or in the scope of > shmoo an agreed upon approach to simplification. > > And even if we imagine that there is one authority with clear > guidance, some of the guidance might be irrelevant, or needing > interpretation, or the guidance might make recommendations based on > the situation for which the IETF event would then need to consider > which advice to follow, which from a high level approach would be in > scope for shmoo. It is indeed subject to interpretation. One can interpret the WHO advice telling the end user to avoid crowds and close contact as an advice to not travel, because there is no international travel possible without such crowds. https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public One can interpret the WHO advice telling "Do NOT require proof of vaccination against COVID-19 for international travel as the only pathway or condition permitting international travel" https://www.who.int/news/item/26-10-2021-statement-on-the-ninth-meeting-of-the-international-health-regulations-(2005)-emergency-committee-regarding-the-coronavirus-disease-(covid-19)-pandemic as being infringed outright by our destination https://www.austria.info/en/service-and-facts/coronavirus-information/entry-regulations that requires people to be vaccinated before entering. And these are not the only authorities and implementers who are on clear contradiction. Still, this would not stop one from trying to improve the situation. > -Mallory > > On 1/18/22 1:01 PM, Martin Duke via Datatracker wrote: >> Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for >> charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: Block >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to >> all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to >> cut this introductory paragraph, however.) >> >> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found >> here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-shmoo/ >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> BLOCK: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> I have trouble seeing what high-level principles a BCP regarding >> compliance with health policies will enumerate. Isn't it pretty >> much "do what the health authorities tell us to do"? It's not that simple. Were we to do what health authorities told us to, then there would be no in-person component of IETF meeting in March in Austria. Still that is proposed by IETF authority, right? For example, EMA tells to wait. It re-iterated that indication to wait yesterday, and it was not the first time it said so. It did not tell IETF to wait and to not meet in March, but it tells to wait with the booster cycles. They ask to wait for new data, new season, new strategy, new vaccine kinds. What does that 'wait' mean? Well, it means in March my vaccine is outdated. Because there are papers that say that after 2 months the immunity confered by a dose is relatively low. Should I travel in March? Rather not. That is my interpretation. It does not mean I dont want to work towards helping organising an in-person component. There are other possibilities that can be discussed. Also, as with all these covid discussions: it might very well be it all might disappear tomorrow as quickly as it arrived. This is on the table too. Alex Is the intent to establish red lines to >> cancel (but cancellation criteria are out of scope). Or is it to >> have principles for rationing access to the venue when capacity see >> drops? Please clarify what the intent is here. >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> COMMENT: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> I suspect that a strong consensus to change the meeting cadence will be >> elusive, but as the charter has that qualifier it's fine to include >> it. >> >> >> From nobody Wed Jan 19 04:15:18 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FABE3A0B6F for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 04:15:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EqtqTMnODJsR for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 04:15:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 366403A1B30 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 04:15:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20JCF8SA011289; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 13:15:08 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E7CD204632; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 13:15:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FBF0204628; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 13:15:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 20JCF7b1006176; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 13:15:08 +0100 Message-ID: <6c0f9927-99c9-670f-81ca-ef92c93c1103@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 13:15:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: fr To: Fred Baker Cc: shmoo References: <9c92993e-0a91-e8d2-bae5-d57292941b49@gmail.com> <96B44A39-DFAD-4285-A68C-34771AF39CE9@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <96B44A39-DFAD-4285-A68C-34771AF39CE9@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_cha?= =?utf-8?q?rter-ietf-shmoo-01-00=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:15:17 -0000 Le 18/01/2022 à 20:45, Fred Baker a écrit : > > >> On Jan 18, 2022, at 1:51 AM, Alexandre Petrescu >> wrote: >> >> If the testing at the end of the meeting shows entirely negative >> results, and provided that all were tested extensively, then it >> can be deduced that repeating the same protocol at the next IETF >> in-person meeting would promise the same encouraging results. >> That is the promise. > > If there is any such, I would suggest that the LLC review the > testing done by the city of Vienna. If I understand correctly, any > meeting with 500 or more participants is required to have a daily PCR > test for each individual; To clarify: I think it is not the city of Vienna who requires the testing but the government. It is not the city who tests either, but the hotels, or other facilities. The source of this info is this URL https://www.wien.info/en/travel-info/corona-information/testing-options-vienna-guests-388220 I am still looking for the source information at Austria government that established this rule of rooms and so on. Further, convention.at, an organisation promoting meetings in Vienna reflects also a government decision (not its own decision) to relate to that 500 number. In that, one can see that not only 500 is a number but also 25. In it, one can see that one can have a meeting room with max 25 people inside (probably large room) and without testing. So, it might be possible to hold a WG meeting without testing daily. https://www.vienna.convention.at/en/event-planning/covid-19/update-meetings-362408 Further, by that URL it appears that the PCR testing requirement is at 1000, and not at 500 as initially said. But, they say 'max 1000' and not 'min 1000' as one would expect. So it depends what they mean with that 'max' term. We have at IETF a similar terminology problem with the 'min MTU'. Also, when IETF says they require simply 'PCR tests' then that might look scary uncomfortable every day in the nose. But the Austrian sites use the term 'gurgelt' PCR in Austrian which might mean 'gargle' in English which might mean deep in the throat via the mouth (not via the nose), which might mean less discomfort, but might also mean less chance of detection. Sorry, google translate does not have Austrian. > we will submit to that *daily* while there. If there are any cases > that trace back to the meeting, that would be a failure, and > otherwise it would have to be considered a success. I agree. If there is no universal mandatory testing of all at the meeting then it is impossible to state whether or not the meeting helped or not propagate the virus. Alex > I don't know that it is repeatable as stated, as I don't know that > every city has that plan of action. Repeating it without that would > require that the IETF itself have everyone tested, perhaps daily, at > every meeting forever. The question I would ask is: at whose cost? > This begins to sound like an insurmountable requirement if the cost > per testing event is significantly greater than zero. Or, perhaps > all meetings in the future have to be held in Vienna. > > I guess, Alexandre, what might help is a clear statement from you of > what solution would be acceptable to you - what would you consider > to be "good enough"? I'm approaching the conclusion that there is in > fact no acceptable algorithm. If that is the case, maybe you should > participate remotely. From nobody Wed Jan 19 08:48:41 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5B133A1352; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:48:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id daezVhhORmuy; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:48:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 214763A1355; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:48:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1nAE8B-000JsK-Sj; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:48:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:48:14 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Mallory Knodel , Martin Duke , The IESG cc: shmoo-chairs@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <52F374169556A5B276E41D75@PSB> In-Reply-To: <966807eb-cd75-166d-2695-6177d6c20c32@cdt.org> References: <164252890784.22597.10136089296552565648@ietfa.amsl.com> <966807eb-cd75-166d-2695-6177d6c20c32@cdt.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Martin Duke's Block on charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 16:48:33 -0000 Mallory, I have a concern that may be similar to Martin's and another one that is hinted at from my comments about another set of discussions in the WG. Inline below. --On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 13:44 -0500 Mallory Knodel wrote: > Hi Martin, > > Others probably have comments, but "health authorities" is > clearly not a monolith. Deciding who to take as an authority > would be within scope. I would hope that, while setting criteria or giving guidance about making that decision would be within scope, deciding who to take as an authority should not be. Even the former may not be under our control: As Alex, Fred, and others have pointed out directly on indirectly, when cognizant legal or regulatory authorities lay out rules that they have to power to enforce, those are the rules and the IETF's opinion about them is of no value. In that regard, while I agreed that cancellation criteria should be out of scope, I wonder whether it would be useful for the WG to have some discussion about principles to be followed if rules imposed by venues or local authorities change in ways that would make holding a scheduled meeting more difficult. While sometimes those things can be negotiated (as the IETF has occasionally been able to negotiate around local rules in the past), our being able to do things that are forbidden to the local population can stir up serious resentments that last long beyond the time of the actual event. I am confident that the LLC understands those issues, but it seems to me that high-level advice from this WG about where to draw the line would be appropriate. Coming back to the "health authority" question, part of our problem is that, while it is clear that there is a very high concentration in the IETF of people with expertise in networking at its various levels, in-depth knowledge of immunology, epidemiology, and the more technical aspects of public health planning is rather sparse. One symptom is that I've seen assertions on this list that I've gotten curious about and passed on to epidemiologist colleagues for a reaction. The reactions have uniformly been close to "those people should stick to Internet design and technology". So, again, suggesting criteria -- starting with "violating local laws is usually bad"-- should be fine. Picking who to consider an authority is a problem best left to the LLC who are in a better position to obtain whatever professional-specialist advice is needed, put it into IETF context, and act on it. > Additionally the guidance from one authority, say the CDC in > the US, can be confusing and in need of simplification, or in > the scope of shmoo an agreed upon approach to simplification. Agreed. Unfortunately, one of the things that causes that confusion involves efforts to translate very complex scientific matters, ones that are themselves unstable over time because of evolution in both understanding and of the virus, into language lay people and regulators can understand. I do not envy the positions of those within or advising the agencies who need to make things understandable to their decision-makers nor those who then have to translate those decisions to the public. Any of us who have tried to explain how some subtle aspect of the Internet works and why it works that way to either typical children of elementary school age or stereotypical grandparents should be able to understand the problem those people face in trying to explain the issues and decisions they fact to lay audiences, including most of us. So, I don't think the IETF community (or the subset that participates in SHMOO) should be expected to do the simplifying. An "approach to simplification", maybe, but I have trouble imagining our competently going much beyond "pick the most restrictive interpretation" or "if there is ambiguity, see how far we can push the boundaries". > And even if we imagine that there is one authority with clear > guidance, some of the guidance might be irrelevant, or needing > interpretation, or the guidance might make recommendations > based on the situation for which the IETF event would then > need to consider which advice to follow, which from a high > level approach would be in scope for shmoo. I agree, but I hope that even that statement may need interpretation. In some ways, what this note is about is trying to clarify what "high-level" means. I suggest that, as soon as we need to discuss a particular IETF event (except past ones as examples from which we can learn), we are into territory that should be out of scope for SHMOO. thanks, john From nobody Wed Jan 19 08:57:13 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD98E3A13B6; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:56:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vz-qtQetGniW; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:56:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B4DF3A13B2; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:56:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492324372B87; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:56:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cRHvi3l6kPCo; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:56:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [70.18.229.17]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D35C54198926; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:56:49 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Wood Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: 113attendees@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:56:48 -0500 Message-Id: <321C40AC-5B24-49F5-B2C1-1AD8AF20F2DC@staff.ietf.org> Cc: 113attendees@ietf.org To: manycouches@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] IETF 113 Updates on 2022-01-19 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 16:56:55 -0000 Hello, A few updates as we work to organize and come together for our = first-ever hybrid IETF meeting on 19-25 March: + Registration Registration is now expected to be open next week (after 24 January). = There have been unforeseen delays with the VAT process which must be = completed before accepting registrations. This is now expected to be = completed in the next few days. Further details about how the = registration process will work will be shared shortly ahead of its = opening. + Participant discussions The 113attendees@ietf.org email list is set up for discussions related = to the upcoming meeting. The list is now open for subscription by anyone = (including those who are not yet sure about whether they will register = for in person or remote participation) at:=20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/113attendees Replies to this message are set to be sent to that list. The IETF 113 meeting wiki is also now live at: https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/ietf113=20 Both the mailing list and wiki may be used by anyone contemplating IETF = 113 participation, for example to share information about things not = arranged by the LLC or Secretariat such as local amenities and travel = insurance.=20 + Questions and FAQs For answers from the Secretariat to specific questions related to IETF = 113, please send email to: support@ietf.org A combined FAQ provides information relevant to the IETF 113 meeting and = includes COVID-related information: https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/faq=20 + Further information Going forward, regular updates and important information about the = upcoming meeting will be shared via the usual channels, including the = ietf-announce and 113all announcement lists. We expect to provide = updates at the end of each week leading up to=E2=80=94and daily updates = during=E2=80=94the meeting to the 113all@ietf.org mailing list. We appreciate the heightened interest in and questions about holding a = meeting in a new format in these challenging times. Please know that the = IESG, IETF LLC Board, IETF Secretariat, LLC staff, and NOC team are = committed to organizing a meeting that is as safe and productive as = possible. There are obviously many unique issues to deal with in a = rapidly changing environment so your understanding as the health = situation continues to change is appreciated. To reiterate: We expect to provide regular updates as we head towards = the meeting. At any time, questions about IETF 113 are welcome at = support@ietf.org. Thank you, Greg Wood Director of Communications and Operations IETF Administration LLC From nobody Wed Jan 19 09:15:45 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietf.org Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87533A1486; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:15:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: manycouches@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.42.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <164261251681.11318.4805499978519124754@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:15:16 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] I-D Action: draft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon-04.txt X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 17:15:22 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Stay Home Meet Only Online WG of the IETF. Title : Running an IETF Hackathon Author : Charles Eckel Filename : draft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon-04.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2022-01-19 Abstract: IETF Hackathons encourage the IETF community to collaborate on running code related to existing and evolving Internet standards. This document provides a set of practices that have been used for running IETF Hackathons. These practices apply to Hackathons in which both in-person and remote participation are possible with adaptations for Hackathons that are online only. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon-04.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon-04 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Wed Jan 19 09:25:06 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A846E3A14DE for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:24:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.594 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.594 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=CrnelSbg; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=r88aEVIo Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZlI6s16L7QXR for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:24:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67E803A1503 for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:24:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6075; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1642613090; x=1643822690; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=U9gGgtV8u3PnGckX8lIzV7LDb1qAetQH4HR52YeknaA=; b=CrnelSbgvt8CjSZO5EMW9dH4e3ax334ejbH6U8oGog7OFY3tJmpLAoJL GwLdi/e9jGG2faRfJKxq3FC1s19zJ0YQVI6OJHBd/2S++560RqBax6QAz 7WSAZwaq41uh0raONW1snu8zqjSkFQwwp4OLdEqWPlqtO+eIysOD6Fy8j Y=; IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3A1YF2/hSeW9TYp1eHxjs3ijOytdpso7vLVj580?= =?us-ascii?q?XJvo75Nc6H2+ZPkMQSf4Ph2l1bGUM3d7O4MkOvZta3sGAliqZaMuXwPatpAA?= =?us-ascii?q?hkCj8hFkwkpGsXQD0r9IbbjZDA7G8IXUlhj8jm7PEFZFdy4aUfVpyi57CUZH?= =?us-ascii?q?VP0Mg8mTtk=3D?= IronPort-Data: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3ApW1FFa0m1vWeptGBTPbD5ctzkn2cJEfYwER7X?= =?us-ascii?q?KvMYLTBsI5bpzwGzTNJCj2Eb/reMDDxf4t2aI3ioxkHvsSHmoRkSlE63Hw8F?= =?us-ascii?q?HgiRegpqji6wuYcB84ZRyH6ZBoPA/42N5+QfKjYcleG/k33auG4/CElvU21b?= =?us-ascii?q?uOU5NDsa3gZqTBMEE/NuTo78wIIqtYAbeqRWmthivuqyyHrA2JJ7hYvWo4iB?= =?us-ascii?q?w1vnzs01Bj6kGtwUlXT/pmntneG/5UeJMp3ya1csxLFrodo8u6SH44vzZmj9?= =?us-ascii?q?W/fuhwqEN7gz/Dwc1YBRfjZOg3mZnh+Avf5xEMd4H1plP9mapLwam8P49mNt?= =?us-ascii?q?916y9hJvoGYQgYyNaqKk+MYO/VdO3EvZ/MbqO+ffRBTtuTWlSUqaUDExvxoH?= =?us-ascii?q?UoxIIYY9/1fAGxS+7ofMj9lU/wpr4pa25qhQeVqw88kNsSuYcUUu2prynfSC?= =?us-ascii?q?vNOfHwKeI2Sjfcw4dv6rp4QdRoGW/ckVA=3D=3D?= IronPort-HdrOrdr: =?us-ascii?q?A9a23=3ABQslT6PFDmtifcBcT23155DYdb4zR+YMi2?= =?us-ascii?q?TDiHoRdfUFSKKlfp6V88jzjSWE9Ar5K0tQ5uxoWZPwD080kKQU3WB/B8bbYO?= =?us-ascii?q?CLghrMEGgm1/qe/9SCIVy+ygc+79YaT0EWMrSZZjIW4beYkWuF+pQbsaO6Gc?= =?us-ascii?q?uT9IDjJgJWPHhXgtZbnmFE42igYylLbTgDIaB8OIuX58JBqTblU28QdN6HCn?= =?us-ascii?q?4MWPWGj8HXlbr9CCR2RyIP2U2rt3eF+bT6Gx+X0lM1SDVU24ov9mDDjkjQ+r?= =?us-ascii?q?ijifem0RXRvlWjrKi+2eGRiOerNvb8zvT9GQ+czTpAo74RHYFqiQpF5d1HLm?= =?us-ascii?q?xayeUk7S1QZ/iboEmhAF1d6SGdqjUIlgxesEMLDTSj8CbeSQuTfkNhNyMJv/?= =?us-ascii?q?MrTjLJr0Unp91yy6RNwiaQsIdWFwrJmGDn68HPTAwCrDv4nZKz+dRj/0C3fL?= =?us-ascii?q?FuI4O5l7Zvtn+90a1wax7S+cQiCq1jHcvc7PFZfReTaG3YpHBmxJipUm4oFh?= =?us-ascii?q?mLT0AesojNugIm00xR3g8d3ogSj30A/JUyR91N4PnFKL1hkPVLQtUNZaxwCe?= =?us-ascii?q?8dSY+8C3DLQxjLLGWOSG6XWJ0vKjbIsdr68b817OaldNgBy4Yzgo3IVBdCuW?= =?us-ascii?q?s7ayvVeIWzNV1wg1nwqUmGLEHQI/Bllu5EU+fHNcjW2AW4OSQTr/c=3D?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CFCAD4SOhh/5xdJa1aHgEBCxIMQIF?= =?us-ascii?q?PC4FSVgd3WjcxiA8DhTmFDoMClhOFDoEugSUDVAsBAQENAQEqAQwKBAEBg09?= =?us-ascii?q?xRQKDUQIlNgcOAQIEAQEBEgEBBQEBAQIBBgSBCROFaAEMhkMCAQMBARAuAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?sDA8CAQg/BycLFBECBBMUDoJiAYIOVwMuAQ6iUwGBOgKKH3iBM4EBgggBAQY?= =?us-ascii?q?EBIE6Ag5BR4I7GII3AwaBOoMOhByCf4QKJxyCDYE8HIJnPoJjAQEBAQEXgXO?= =?us-ascii?q?DIoIukE4vW1UEUQIUDAI5NQFTgROfEaBKCoNFinyUVQUug3GkApZEIIIlikW?= =?us-ascii?q?VDQGEIAIEAgQFAg4BAQaBaAUvgVlwFRohKgGCPj4TGQ+NfiKDcYUUhUp0AjY?= =?us-ascii?q?CBgsBAQMJkDoBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.88,299,1635206400"; d="scan'208,217";a="892658804" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 19 Jan 2022 17:24:40 +0000 Received: from mail.cisco.com (xbe-rcd-001.cisco.com [173.37.102.16]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 20JHOeiR012659 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 17:24:40 GMT Received: from xfe-aln-004.cisco.com (173.37.135.124) by xbe-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:24:39 -0600 Received: from xfe-aln-005.cisco.com (173.37.135.125) by xfe-aln-004.cisco.com (173.37.135.124) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:24:39 -0600 Received: from NAM10-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (173.37.151.57) by xfe-aln-005.cisco.com (173.37.135.125) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.14 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 11:24:39 -0600 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=cK+hYtMw9ILtUhdz1NQmZoBT0PKH5cBTSdMJpfxhKX7R+A3ZoN2CtE2YV+g9g90IELBjvtPnbFcG7PR/QoCnljWqS2yH8pPrzpxSbk2fmHcDXySlyK3/lFr2ayWu27Nvq1DAwXycl3TV7bdq8oK1HodKWA4U7HV9nh1fe8sZq+GCbCbUA/S9gVlquoTw4p+vX/ZHlwkinR3y+y5k/mJjfiJj+uEfToph1mnapLL6aNs3gtThBzkJdrBvZ3RSaLs6rp+DSRJNez46nGD6+wymjzCGVuXo/QS9IE4/5BBJk18cLIRZ2QBIsXt6RUIzy20i2W6LO9bxBOo5rldRWXjTbQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=9cHzCzen6iioQkGl6qo8EkqUJNX1200hiUvmYW2LJNM=; b=Px3f0kj8Yn6Qr0ItoIAGeR+2+ePrmup3EJueuvsEcooudyRqx04tqDy069VOJoTCFwwBPVWL+SGzCVg1QT9JUIGFgEI615oiTbpc+YAUMaFTV9vEbO6+cpP/jdQyuFS1M6TZ05YIKx7RR/vVYtksYUXD1k6BClyVNQW2h6BJSAqcuCv98+iC0Ixl8HCwPfLVy3VhPXsVD43YZl02WYvhbalDcET0hH86MZX+sMrzT0Sh8DV0NeZaVPyQTbu8QsaqvGcuREua8W9lQaxh4IUrXC0VwkVpCKtbVZ4GIsM5lizJWfl18IQqcDl7whmMJxTdzMfzPDV+N1i56TFpShASsw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-cisco-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=9cHzCzen6iioQkGl6qo8EkqUJNX1200hiUvmYW2LJNM=; b=r88aEVIodOwlVVe7/vfNm6c7ovq7vXCWd7mnlnOozG1Q6p4jfhxvED2Ou8Buy3NNQ5apRS6OFxUvJ3PLQBWPeCAtAVKQxgDKrHkZU+VVpEm0G5+Z5ixUr0tK/2u6O6oVnDBes0jMn+hjP+ZhjutOkexojGbEVLFrim0wT25h9Sg= Received: from SJ0PR11MB5053.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:2af::17) by BYAPR11MB2597.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a02:c0::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4909.8; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 17:24:38 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR11MB5053.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4071:7411:6a4d:8449]) by SJ0PR11MB5053.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4071:7411:6a4d:8449%4]) with mapi id 15.20.4909.008; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 17:24:38 +0000 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: "manycouches@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Manycouches] I-D Action: draft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHYDVhAO4zNYt63k0GVjXDeSQS2pqxqmC2A Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 17:24:38 +0000 Message-ID: <29E4A1EC-78F6-4DB0-A2F0-C091898FEFFA@cisco.com> References: <164261251681.11318.4805499978519124754@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <164261251681.11318.4805499978519124754@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 294858b1-3798-460a-7ddd-08d9db709218 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR11MB2597:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:1468; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SJ0PR11MB5053.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(366004)(6506007)(86362001)(8676002)(83380400001)(53546011)(6512007)(38100700002)(966005)(36756003)(122000001)(8936002)(33656002)(66574015)(2906002)(2616005)(76116006)(166002)(64756008)(66446008)(66556008)(66476007)(66946007)(316002)(186003)(71200400001)(5660300002)(6486002)(38070700005)(508600001)(6916009)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?us-ascii?Q?wdXYjazgAO4pCxu8xfAiaiden/B7fb8sfrs8BDHrwjb/fWCwtgbk4AwSruUz?= =?us-ascii?Q?GHspqQCmyUKJ/PmkhEqT219zbGRsqWVraw3mQSP7889WpiOcqXfXeX6XZfqa?= =?us-ascii?Q?LCzlT2T2L0VXBXefFyF20XbrYf+IkgH8UhUD5UCmqiBdtr6f8jDzdwb84cfH?= =?us-ascii?Q?nVCk1XDF8yCsQzDMvqo+DNV9v1fhEOLn1MEHv5IKFnGfdAT6ZJHYglOqV4wr?= =?us-ascii?Q?6k6R3CjSXvZtc3IwJtqMfp6zQZvKs66dtVKaiCSZhpS0aJQVTgAdN5SzREa5?= =?us-ascii?Q?+hv5L1uaV4JZoGa+u4DvA422COmCpCWYDh1g6wRduU/PouzmhS/S6j7ff8N8?= =?us-ascii?Q?BXHhnigDFR0FwL8chnGgUzEYKEUo9271L7s47Pt22siOrxddMLSB+Pnh8WiV?= =?us-ascii?Q?lEpb3uqlOt/QWjnnm6X4sDxGlmhQwy8c3GCnZT5YVq0BZAL/97O5HR7SIpn/?= =?us-ascii?Q?CKACiH+m20WOyLbrEOE6Rwqp43k76qgnA/P1iQ+WbaGjezaiNn6LqT+KATtW?= =?us-ascii?Q?9n/TI9gcKn5T+VigvavU3+baZAIo9AfinUC4dhnN/e4GIeMm3b7YjAJuiphU?= =?us-ascii?Q?fZ2drtAAOzrpjdplLldy/NMESd6oNInHOj+JNVSpJVlyqjI2ZJVKHvz4ZDd/?= =?us-ascii?Q?zhw6lrra04wILP1KLYttM+14XseOno96GbiYJCOF9XY9R1PdREWiqmAgW5Hy?= =?us-ascii?Q?PWgrCBQsDxe0+0ax6azEvf6bs9km266ep5qMQEnUvtUomTvYV1/X0Ds5Fxtf?= =?us-ascii?Q?Nfrvy2LASlEia17uqopAmN+WvyYQly2o/qVzNojFu04GEwdO3fvIhx4n7SS5?= =?us-ascii?Q?VFVL9FwopFe6vhwCMTe2LE8fWNcc6+IU2UveWskSwevmLb2hcvCwc91JOIOb?= =?us-ascii?Q?XagrgGRo0/EpC9sAbjO4VHazQP3YzR7miSkxDejGkXiETbJ6M6mYHIEcz3a3?= =?us-ascii?Q?iT1fi8yTIRQFNKu3ZhC7SXCFhmZGUzxmCsSXRPOum+t/nACf9Aj8JMto6Ctr?= =?us-ascii?Q?MukAXsdIV/+DYBO/7I4AzBxdkrr14t/28HCK5VVNXil/ryzUQznczEBNtDe5?= =?us-ascii?Q?uV6WdUkbGwDCProtlljM6pizm3ovFEb+8w3+kf0zavN3Rxm2FX6vzzvXtSp2?= =?us-ascii?Q?nYOVcVJkrdh/OTjd16QFJCIa7M7YfRpR6vjo1jUGOOYbsRgBxwwjVwZA4PM5?= =?us-ascii?Q?hW0UbpKny1bc99u8OZ6IaI7MOImHSoAZ7kpovwFWXGrsavv9EZO/mhtzYibE?= =?us-ascii?Q?rk+rZ6dgrStZkdq8Q+qdr51ejB6NazpigOhTQ8SWqBZNmmacvgTGDd0iZMwV?= =?us-ascii?Q?W3gCwq54Gc3ycWc03sJTRaiBN1+/qQeMSv0SOF+bdD7lx7JwQROmJxGAMVLl?= =?us-ascii?Q?BaiR8mUXvz7TLDDJuWjKvj/nw4oztYMw4pbtjnPJAv2aOcxVcea1rILHadOY?= =?us-ascii?Q?dYDFk5UQszldyMP5TN6rmK0EjP495htXA5AlFNLOzR+2M1w5NmM5rBKG+Tak?= =?us-ascii?Q?Z/Bnrg9eAZGBim6AzDFk7O6xk6likwQhkbSQBn2/RSQKP1FW3evfcDyYXvPM?= =?us-ascii?Q?EGkUEFDHZVO6rNolNaQYaa9JQdfV6HH9TKKKLjYYnqRlEAPHvCJz5T6mJ/Ls?= =?us-ascii?Q?LfP7qxc8goldlPswi2x22pyXwlqPYts1Wr+A6CwBcGcDZyJyxAdvcOLRaUtf?= =?us-ascii?Q?swHBilITbGYvhGxwmbiThUHQBMw=3D?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_29E4A1EC78F64DB0A2F0C091898FEFFAciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR11MB5053.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 294858b1-3798-460a-7ddd-08d9db709218 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Jan 2022 17:24:38.2597 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: fer21p2QJaeC/aufLwDSxqfU23KsPtgFcjdaPWD4XGH+zlBkoZ4nH5oHlAyDtkGMlEG3nYyY1ULLNMZuCCXVtg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB2597 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.16, xbe-rcd-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-5.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] I-D Action: draft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon-04.txt X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 17:25:04 -0000 --_000_29E4A1EC78F64DB0A2F0C091898FEFFAciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This update to the draft addresses the following two issues, https://github.com/eckelcu/draft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon/issues?q=3Dis%3Aissue= +milestone%3A04+is%3Aclosed No open issues exist at this time. I believe this version of the draft is r= eady for the chairs to progress. Cheers, Charles On Jan 19, 2022, at 9:15 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Stay Home Meet Only Online WG of the IETF. Title : Running an IETF Hackathon Author : Charles Eckel Filename : draft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon-04.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2022-01-19 Abstract: IETF Hackathons encourage the IETF community to collaborate on running code related to existing and evolving Internet standards. This document provides a set of practices that have been used for running IETF Hackathons. These practices apply to Hackathons in which both in-person and remote participation are possible with adaptations for Hackathons that are online only. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon-04.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon-04 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-dra= fts _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --_000_29E4A1EC78F64DB0A2F0C091898FEFFAciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This update to the draft addresses the following two issues,

No open issues exist at this time. I believe this version o= f the draft is ready for the chairs to progress.

Cheers,
Charles

On Jan 19, 2022, at 9:15 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.
This draft is a work item of the Stay Home Meet Only Online WG of the IETF.=

       Title     &nb= sp;     : Running an IETF Hackathon
       Author     &n= bsp;    : Charles Eckel
Filename &n= bsp;      : draft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon-04.txt=
Pages  = ;         : 28
Date  =           : 2022-01-19
Abstract:
  IETF Hackathons encourage the IETF community to collaborate on<= br class=3D"">   running code related to existing and evolving Internet standard= s.
  This document provides a set of practices that have been used f= or
  running IETF Hackathons.  These practices apply to Hackath= ons in
  which both in-person and remote participation are possible with=
  adaptations for Hackathons that are online only.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon/
There is also an HTML version available at:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon-04.html

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-shmoo-hackathon-04


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-dra= fts


_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches

--_000_29E4A1EC78F64DB0A2F0C091898FEFFAciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Jan 19 12:04:26 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 469473A19F0; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:04:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jBFgdde2fwxH; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:04:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 109C83A19EB; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1nAHBf-000K6L-HV; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 15:04:07 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 15:04:01 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Martin Duke , The IESG cc: shmoo-chairs@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <164252890784.22597.10136089296552565648@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <164252890784.22597.10136089296552565648@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] BCPs and SHMOO (was: Re: Martin Duke's Block on charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 20:04:19 -0000 --On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 10:01 -0800 Martin Duke via Datatracker wrote: > Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: Block >... > I have trouble seeing what high-level principles a BCP > regarding compliance with health policies will enumerate. > Isn't it pretty much "do what the health authorities tell us > to do"? Is the intent to establish red lines to cancel (but > cancellation criteria are out of scope). Or is it to have > principles for rationing access to the venue when capacity see > drops? Please clarify what the intent is here. Martin (and IESG more generally), I think part of the problem that you are identifying (and =C3=89ric's earlier "No Objection" comment may point that way = too) is that we have long used the "BCP" category to describe two (normally) rather distinct groups of things. I know all of us know this, but allow me to review... One group involves technical or operational documents that specify Best Practice recommendations about the Internet. Most if not all of them assume some, often considerable, technical knowledge on the part of the reader. Some of that knowledge is even area-specific: there are IETF BCP documents that I cannot easily read and understand and I've been editor of a few with which selected others might have similar problems. While we haven't always gotten it right, we've been quite willing to tell readers that those documents are no required to provide detailed tutorials and, if they can't understand the recommendations because they don't have the background, that is not a problem with the document. The other group consists of IETF procedural and policy documents. They are not recommendations or attempts to convince others to do something; they are rules. We expect them to be completely clear to everyone. If they are not, we end up with battles over interpretations. And those procedural documents are about things that are, within broad legal and practical constraints, completely under our control. No one is going to write a requirement for meetings 37 days a month, but that is pretty close to common sense, not specialized technical knowledge. The difficulty I see with some of the SHMOO discussions is that they involve a bit of both. Picking one set of health policies over another becomes either a political decision ("e.g., which country and its policies do you distrust least?") or a highly technical one that involves technologies about which few in the IETF have deep knowledge. Neither is under our control and things change faster than even the evolution of the Internet. We can certainly provide high-level guidance, but I'd be nervous about the basis on which the WG might make a decision between WHO recommendations or the recommendations of health ministries in some particular cluster of countries (historical successes and failures have not been very good predictors for COVID-19). "We" (including the WG, the IESG, and the IETF LLC) may have to make some of those decisions anyway, but I think that the use of "BCP" terminology is adding to the confusion.. and that being _very_ clear about the boundaries of the WG's scope are very important. At the other extreme, the basis for rationing access to a venue or how much regional homogeneity we are willing to tolerate and how far we are willing to depart from our historical policies about regional rotation really are IETF policy matters with potentially great impact on our effectiveness and should be, IMO, very much in scope for the WG. I may be wrong, but I see your concern (with which I obviously agree), as symptomatic of both problems: we do not have clarity about the WG's scope and boundaries and the term "BCP" is confusing us. And recent discussions on the mailing list reinforce that impression. best, john p.s. And, yes, I think it would be helpful to, at some point, revisit whether continuing to call IETF procedural and policy documents, including tutorial descriptions of how the IETF is organized, as "BCP"s. But probably not this week. From nobody Wed Jan 19 12:25:13 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietf.org Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B063A1A75; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: John Scudder via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: shmoo-chairs@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.42.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: John Scudder Message-ID: <164262390454.30746.1360418144838196355@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:25:05 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] John Scudder's Abstain on charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 20:25:06 -0000 John Scudder has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: Abstain When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-shmoo/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - I appreciate the improvement to the name. - I agree with Martin’s concern regarding the futility of the IETF writing BCPs regarding public health measures. - There is no statement of how the “meeting planning for mostly online… meetings” work item is to be fulfilled. Since the others say they’ll result in one or more BCPs, I’m left to wonder about this one. From nobody Wed Jan 19 12:58:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 041563A1B78; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:58:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.672 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.672 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.576, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=DjPEtqal; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=M3KpwiMk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0HWxSWnw4Ukr; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:58:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33AC83A1B72; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:58:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108157.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with ESMTP id 20JFSHUi016441; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:58:04 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=XJ1H35FZp5JzpcjBtQktJcUzpdpHPnGo7a9wQkAiCu8=; b=DjPEtqal8zQxztPeqbrUwV5MSEdIRCVZW5gJJeX0ofcO/B5HA33L0zDRZWNSLruJTNFL JXFnDeGmc8vaNIyTuSK7fetBS+99rQBx5yc3ti9sT8QheWPQR40vpEn36DAJDLGAAKLk I4Lbi/9MTJQ2NjTGdvttk4pP45J+yb5X701iBey92BWcdcGJVZMud6t1ZReWikcUnyk5 mbBQFxfyBmfkQaGLldD5fm36Y310EaKw1BbBkkRc7fZq4E4xiHof56n6iYbQn614L2mN VOP7TaC4QIwmqI4xA3LCFhlaNLZgt1ujiXF043T/3OsMF5Jvh7Go81Ord7zAvbEYbH7L PA== Received: from nam10-mw2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam10lp2106.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.55.106]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3dpnahgp2b-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:58:04 -0800 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=EpoYvh5Ayu/R2/kJQCCeg9D/TwT5nSrF5+uzkqVOhQknm4UIqPjsywRwoJNUd5sgsLVGXTLJhjE6n/yeG10xKDLQWDRi/AlM6u9dpgtAlgcP1O8/96Rq+iyVs0elOzBgEXqWe+MWywG0dK8W9bsb97dUiG2cwNVcLwtViS//UJId12a+Cji7sPyq+fzpO/fhWZiUctT2BbaMEYTtHtkijE3sTZ16eSSRjJxB++0o61U7smTcOZFeM+AOW4W+WRCXu8A9rnoLFvl27saEcVCZeDAD+MPXzaq9UXJ3QFxX47JljtqYg540FLI1yJjJ8zpMVcO3OoT56JrXySClWx9zNw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=XJ1H35FZp5JzpcjBtQktJcUzpdpHPnGo7a9wQkAiCu8=; b=hTaaNBTYlN7w35Cd3H4ohUrvt/6A8hkJpY6yx/uFpRAgUc72ZSqCs+RvwjLLq0YwOep5l9P9so3OtCLSf5CCugRDgqo7XpYZv2Hy+bW3wBx704t6S6c0aL1VJ520X1EsGj6Z2DBV1eBeibq9fKVtfAkZ10BytQK5SjtdCe/rjZH0sMEHvWOaaft+uvc+zh3RwVtdukcH+4BB7Ej5Zk29GHhhSzBphnZ2TcK9mzZzLUwz5FsxN1XK8nKQXFk89j+kvE9VOPx9TaE7GOEECSV66Ix2wYykCZTGadDPDCsCmwPt3K6Qti9y7BH0n/Ls0oiyNvx53yWPWohP2S/D2eZ6eA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=XJ1H35FZp5JzpcjBtQktJcUzpdpHPnGo7a9wQkAiCu8=; b=M3KpwiMkwrf9WCootq4WBfGZ+/wSACRXoPrMvx/n/tT8/FOY+U1EegXKZ3D+cYDAt0uOGAPxbnYP7HlwUFGAPCUPnBIqAjX0WeFqPr4UQk09BW4GCztn3x9WrFVqfuVA5Aep8Ior1cgzzgBaFL6IKGmQ1hLrcU3vuag1jyX90dA= Received: from BN8PR05MB6098.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:408:45::29) by SJ0PR05MB7561.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:2ee::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4909.2; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 20:58:01 +0000 Received: from BN8PR05MB6098.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dc1d:6129:6372:b5a8]) by BN8PR05MB6098.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dc1d:6129:6372:b5a8%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4909.008; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 20:58:01 +0000 From: John Scudder To: The IESG CC: "shmoo-chairs@ietf.org" , "manycouches@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: John Scudder's Abstain on charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHYDXKp0pPQQFlzl0Sq4z8vLDdMZKxq05eA Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 20:58:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: <164262390454.30746.1360418144838196355@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <164262390454.30746.1360418144838196355@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 899cf387-a08f-4d7c-d4a8-08d9db8e6167 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR05MB7561:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BN8PR05MB6098.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230001)(4636009)(366004)(26005)(33656002)(2906002)(186003)(86362001)(508600001)(91956017)(71200400001)(966005)(122000001)(36756003)(8676002)(6486002)(66556008)(6506007)(66476007)(316002)(38100700002)(76116006)(54906003)(6916009)(53546011)(5660300002)(83380400001)(2616005)(64756008)(66446008)(4326008)(66946007)(6512007)(38070700005)(450100002)(8936002)(45980500001)(20210929001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?utf-8?B?YkFGOVR2VFFUTTlIT0oyaWRLWkJDQmxtdWJsc2Q5Tzc3My9lWWNRdU4rU0kw?= =?utf-8?B?Q2lqRjVORkpBc0ZLNUQrN1BUd1JIYXdIeHNaamhyTW15QSt0YjlFQnM0RHRW?= =?utf-8?B?M2F3UlJpbnVxSW5ieExKSmp5NndKd2R1YU9Ga3BoN1ZLRW90TGRvOFRjOFUy?= =?utf-8?B?akttQUliN1NwYzJBanh6ZE5DSnU2N3haamZuZE9pVUFWNk1FV002UUNLMHpP?= =?utf-8?B?eENpdHI4cXphV2MyZW5OTm5UVVBYV0ZlZm1vMXd0eW9hcmtKMkRRdnZTYWdJ?= =?utf-8?B?RTJ0ZlhRVkpuSlpzQWlwMC9SL2dUR1JZbUxrMm5ZNHd0UUl3ejArRkVUQkhk?= =?utf-8?B?RkdGTHJsMXpBeXZHb3F6dVJJakNNOE9JaFBWd0NhR3ZranVkZ09sOUlEWHhL?= =?utf-8?B?U0t0N1Q4ZzRKT0YzSGpRMUc2cHN1Zmdsa05DeFp2RE4rSXZ2RENPNFplbTZp?= =?utf-8?B?K1lwOS9nVjlNRnlSdEkvUXBtZ3JZQ05VS3NJQlpMd1hVUWdMZlFPcXhHZ3RI?= =?utf-8?B?bmJNYUlwRWpQK1RXVGZqN2NTSjdzSEdNdVVSSGx1QnVVa3ZtVE41QXg1cHNS?= =?utf-8?B?em1DaTIwMzMzSTdMcDZiSlRpeU1rS0c5SzF0TXVlSmRkTHZaOFFwTis3SHdE?= =?utf-8?B?TmtaenpPdjl0bXFoY2F0VzBkc1c4R2w1ZFUyN0pxTFZ2TjNXT2p1bVYxZ0Fu?= =?utf-8?B?MGM3Uk43cC80K3NzOURpei82elR4TGxpQ3ljc0hiczBmN2FRaERvVklzSnM5?= =?utf-8?B?dmJUTHFlNjBwK2Y5QzUrak0yRW95d2YzelJsUVN2TTZJVDZKWmFvU0xyZFlw?= =?utf-8?B?L2UrYk0zTlpSNzQ0SnJRRVdha24wcmhMVHQ2L2VvcE1VTHNpNktOMEdSVVlZ?= =?utf-8?B?QUE5L2FoMGQvbkpSbUNNc0VhUUtGM2lTSlQ2WWEzcEdDOUt0Uko1am1rZzNs?= =?utf-8?B?cnlXRVB2cVRxM2JoeVNVVGR1Uk1JcjB2VElNVWFNby9hMzVDK1lZTUNYaUZT?= =?utf-8?B?a3NqTlRMd04vM1VrME1VcERJWkQxVzRMbCtVY0FremRaNkltNHBheW1LY2FZ?= =?utf-8?B?RTdUVXlGMVJ6YXptTjlnSzZVSVpNR2lQOXRyMWx6WDRSOWFVK3hpR3dOQWl3?= =?utf-8?B?ZDhMVzE1dGlVUk5YNUcvVVVxWkZFdHZSV2JDRXU3aGh0VWgvdXJEOUJuMU02?= =?utf-8?B?SmJ3STU2UDZEcTZjT1Y1dGVuR2hIOTZwSFRnM1hzRnlqa3ZyZDgzMktOU0lK?= =?utf-8?B?SUdQUnQveFNmbExyUTdTNzlaaXZHTmxxTUtyOHhRUm9vb0tuMC92a3A4dVNy?= =?utf-8?B?c1FjTzhTTGNGUllpcFFBaW1lQXJUblhaUnJQRmhhK0p3NlZsM2lwWDBFcGs0?= =?utf-8?B?alJmQTFvVW9KVG5DRUMvZUNqME5sRms5R0h6SlhjN09HTUVUZ1RVUDFVbUJh?= =?utf-8?B?VTZ6RjNNc0FKRzczeWg4V2xGb2YvYm1RMEs4aUhUTWxaNmx4OVE4c1BHOHBE?= =?utf-8?B?NTNDbzdpdnR3eTJwVjZQUkpVOG01Q0dIbS9CZnBQTC9kVURQclMySXZFM2Z4?= =?utf-8?B?NFI2NTNadlNOVFVEZmdHMFdPTEtvUS83b0dBVklucUdySDBLOW1ReVI2Ty9p?= =?utf-8?B?bXdJT0ZjS2pvekFBSWk0UTMzdExNUE5lc3Q1OGJkMldUcGVPeis3YVpId1JJ?= =?utf-8?B?Y2VDbXBkYm90TDBNL2ZjU1RnWEwwT0kyY1lwNys2MEYzWHNtQmdOTWgvOE1Y?= =?utf-8?B?cmd0L1A1dlhEK1N4b2tTOCtPYVFEc3RwaWRhdFdnZXR3aktFaTNKSlR4MENC?= =?utf-8?B?ZGFhc0xteldoM0JvU2hLQXBPNGQvSUJkOGVlY3IreTJGcjF2Q1lzKzR6c3hO?= =?utf-8?B?VldDbGxIRkoxRzkwaUQ0RjhsOGpuS1ZVcWJ3ZW5KM1NYMnJRREp3Z0pxREtv?= =?utf-8?B?aFcxV1VpVC9WUWxKSnZETFdGNi9TRVh2RlFXalV4VUZBajFiWkt0L29TNVhJ?= =?utf-8?B?NEZsMG9pTUhlcmVzRkJ5Q0VZbStGOWVQK2grK05jT2VKVXRlekFZY1JlUXE1?= =?utf-8?B?bC8yRFFYdWxIT1htNUdXZUkvdnpIbXpIR2x4YmoyUG56bThDOC92RzBmRnR5?= =?utf-8?Q?NGVg=3D?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN8PR05MB6098.namprd05.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 899cf387-a08f-4d7c-d4a8-08d9db8e6167 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Jan 2022 20:58:01.3794 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: o1ppxNTasyTK7g6xHtZm9XZ/8reclNLQ21VwSLDE2twssJ1nQB8WAWW3MVc5kK/k X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SJ0PR05MB7561 X-Proofpoint-GUID: ou783lS1e-WpRsTD7ZWSwLng_kxZZcMb X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: ou783lS1e-WpRsTD7ZWSwLng_kxZZcMb X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2022-01-19_11,2022-01-19_01,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=953 phishscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1011 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2201190113 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] John Scudder's Abstain on charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 20:58:14 -0000 SeKAmXZlIHJlY2VpdmVkIGEgY291cGxlIHVuaWNhc3QgZm9sbG93dXBzIGV4cHJlc3NpbmcgY29u ZnVzaW9uIG9yIHN1cnByaXNlIGF0IG15IGJhbGxvdGluZyBBYnN0YWluOyBJIHN1cHBvc2UgaXQg aXMga2luZCBvZiByYXJlIG9uIGEgY2hhcnRlci4NCg0KVG8gY2xhcmlmeSBteSBwb3NpdGlvbiwg SeKAmW0gbm90IGhhcHB5IGVub3VnaCB3aXRoIHRoZSBjaGFydGVyIGFzIGl0IGN1cnJlbnRseSBz dGFuZHMgdG8gYmUgYWJsZSB0byBob25lc3RseSBzYXkgSSBoYXZlIE5vIE9iamVjdGlvbiB0byBp dCwgZm9yIHRoZSByZWFzb24gZ2l2ZW4gaW4gbXkgc2Vjb25kIGJ1bGxldCBwb2ludC4gT24gdGhl IG90aGVyIGhhbmQsIEnigJltIG5vdCB1bmhhcHB5IGVub3VnaCB3aXRoIGl0IHRvIGJsb2NrIGl0 LiBTbywgdGhlIG11c2h5IG1pZGRsZSBpdCBpcywgd2l0aCBBYnN0YWluLiBJZiBNYXJ0aW7igJlz IChhbmQgbXkpIGNvbmNlcm4gd2VyZSB0byBiZSByZXNvbHZlZCwgSeKAmWQgbW92ZSB0byBObyBP YmplY3Rpb24uDQoNCkkgaG9wZSB0aGlzIGhlbHBzLg0KDQrigJRKb2huDQoNCj4gT24gSmFuIDE5 LCAyMDIyLCBhdCAzOjI1IFBNLCBKb2huIFNjdWRkZXIgdmlhIERhdGF0cmFja2VyIDxub3JlcGx5 QGlldGYub3JnPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+IEpvaG4gU2N1ZGRlciBoYXMgZW50ZXJlZCB0aGUgZm9s bG93aW5nIGJhbGxvdCBwb3NpdGlvbiBmb3INCj4gY2hhcnRlci1pZXRmLXNobW9vLTAxLTAwOiBB YnN0YWluDQo+IA0KPiBXaGVuIHJlc3BvbmRpbmcsIHBsZWFzZSBrZWVwIHRoZSBzdWJqZWN0IGxp bmUgaW50YWN0IGFuZCByZXBseSB0byBhbGwNCj4gZW1haWwgYWRkcmVzc2VzIGluY2x1ZGVkIGlu IHRoZSBUbyBhbmQgQ0MgbGluZXMuIChGZWVsIGZyZWUgdG8gY3V0IHRoaXMNCj4gaW50cm9kdWN0 b3J5IHBhcmFncmFwaCwgaG93ZXZlci4pDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IFRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCwgYWxv bmcgd2l0aCBvdGhlciBiYWxsb3QgcG9zaXRpb25zLCBjYW4gYmUgZm91bmQgaGVyZToNCj4gaHR0 cHM6Ly91cmxkZWZlbnNlLmNvbS92My9fX2h0dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9j L2NoYXJ0ZXItaWV0Zi1zaG1vby9fXzshIU5FdDZ5TWFPLWdrIVQ0OXRKenc0SjY5U1VpS281dFB2 WlpSQTVNM1MwazdCbTcwU1c2UjhFV2s1bGdOWGhyWVJ6Q2FWdzdvVzBRJA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0K PiAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQo+IENPTU1FTlQ6DQo+IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCj4gDQo+IC0gSSBh cHByZWNpYXRlIHRoZSBpbXByb3ZlbWVudCB0byB0aGUgbmFtZS4NCj4gDQo+IC0gSSBhZ3JlZSB3 aXRoIE1hcnRpbuKAmXMgY29uY2VybiByZWdhcmRpbmcgdGhlIGZ1dGlsaXR5IG9mIHRoZSBJRVRG IHdyaXRpbmcgQkNQcw0KPiByZWdhcmRpbmcgcHVibGljIGhlYWx0aCBtZWFzdXJlcy4NCj4gDQo+ IC0gVGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gc3RhdGVtZW50IG9mIGhvdyB0aGUg4oCcbWVldGluZyBwbGFubmluZyBm b3IgbW9zdGx5IG9ubGluZeKApg0KPiBtZWV0aW5nc+KAnSB3b3JrIGl0ZW0gaXMgdG8gYmUgZnVs ZmlsbGVkLiBTaW5jZSB0aGUgb3RoZXJzIHNheSB0aGV54oCZbGwgcmVzdWx0IGluDQo+IG9uZSBv ciBtb3JlIEJDUHMsIEnigJltIGxlZnQgdG8gd29uZGVyIGFib3V0IHRoaXMgb25lLg0KPiANCj4g DQo+IA0KDQo= From nobody Wed Jan 19 16:45:23 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietf.org Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A81D83A103B; Wed, 19 Jan 2022 16:45:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Roman Danyliw via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: shmoo-chairs@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.42.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roman Danyliw Message-ID: <164263951491.29938.16977306072315612009@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2022 16:45:15 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Roman Danyliw's Block on charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 00:45:16 -0000 Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: Block When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-shmoo/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BLOCK: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Concur with Martin Duke's position. I don't follow how the IETF has sufficient expertise to produce a BCP associated with the generic scope of "[m]eeting planning for meetings where special measures are required to manage community health due to venue specific restrictions and/or to comply with any local health regulations, ..." If possible, please be more specific. For example, what kind of decisions would this BCP be intended to support? The provided examples of "the need for increased spacing, ventilation requirements" seem like mitigations suggested by or requirements imposed by entities outside of the IETF. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Please provide milestones to cover this new work. From nobody Thu Jan 20 05:01:01 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietf.org Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DDE43A0F01; Thu, 20 Jan 2022 05:00:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert Wilton via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: shmoo-chairs@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.42.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert Wilton Message-ID: <164268365366.329.4822293974811115677@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 05:00:54 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Robert Wilton's No Objection on charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 13:00:55 -0000 Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-shmoo-01-00: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-shmoo/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Meeting planning for mostly online, or "hybrid" meetings" - I would suggest changing this to just "Meeting planning for hybrid meetings", since they may apply even if participation isn't mostly online, i.e., strictly greater than 50%. - I would also change "mostly-in-person" to just "in-person". In the charter intro, it could clarify that "in-person" meetings have traditionally had some remote-attendence capabilities, but are optimized for in-person participation, and then use "in-person" consistently. - Should the charter cover providing community guidance about what level of remote participation support is expected/required for "in-person" meetings? Regarding: Meeting planning for meetings where special measures are required to manage community health due to venue specific restrictions and/or to comply with any local health regulations, e.g., the need for increased spacing, ventilation requirements etc. This work item is expected to be fulfilled with the publication of one or more BCPs. - I also agree with the other ADs that it is unclear what this guidance could look like. Thanks, Rob From nobody Thu Jan 20 22:13:42 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060923A0D89 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2022 22:13:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=ih17jNuw; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=GaGKQ5+6 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NKbu4abGOtNX for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2022 22:13:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC6B73A0D84 for ; Thu, 20 Jan 2022 22:13:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B60F7320227D for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2022 01:13:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 21 Jan 2022 01:13:33 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h=cc :content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm1; bh=IQyQgYIg4fFZVbYhb43obYxqSO6SC8WcK81SGH4k0JY=; b=ih17j NuwKnkrWz3KAQ6+fuNKfn9qjNs1n5GbES9JnAlcB0LMjvBC2RjmDXKsAOmNKo3Ui yJhy9FSEJf7QXkPiHW4DQMOfEe2ZU/DheKFtmhtJ5DSA8U4SkfASFu+RLL0wOrHq ew/vKOb+uUVlxvNciR/cDeqCZko5nwPFnZva+lrfOyAosvFr1RGTQyvtObx2/WMh 8U5oWbg1th4RZuT4IbpFzJ1TkHdJA61fB2ZRHMkCBeJojsGXtPRN5mgFs/RGlvsi tubkxGCnfkwj0kNYajTLs/yUlhdsxSjWrCj1lvvibMXa7MHPd3pL5kJsVvlyzijw N3s+DXDYz0fX+Qj7g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:date:from:from :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender :subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=IQyQgYIg4fFZVbYhb43obYxqSO6SC 8WcK81SGH4k0JY=; b=GaGKQ5+6LGAAU5jjGzoV4ouDU+6HCvc/2joAgOn8ZH0g/ xBc4WCGLVSP8LiPE2MMFv2T0hb9tkNsJ/P9GRZwSzh0M9qKv1Fm4t9jj97Xo6mjf Ed6z533NvMXK80pCD0Y9hIuEValSufnNPSrAeX+QKX50JXVyRdN5IDFqMfMcQi29 IlRZo6YRZMVVy7M3ZJu2zuBchci5pccahiHRyUZRSPIsovSKwyoWjT7XHW8DjWD7 SRdTc+zqipdhcZf/N+RJh0LXP3Q25hMRn45JkVBXuS8ouxpeF7DN0ijEkCnIFwrM xmQ2g5fPyN36Pwl0jUYYj6zD/6zr8qllyUC/CU2Rg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrudelgdelvdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecuogfuuhhsphgvtghtffhomhgrihhnucdlgeelmdenuc fjughrpefhtggguffkfhfvfffosegrtdhmrehhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcupfho thhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnh epjeduleefgeefjedvtedthfeuieegiedvveeuhfffheffteelvdevfffgheelffefnecu ffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpghhithhhuhgsrdhiohdpghhithhhuhgsrdgtoh hmpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgr ihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2022 01:13:32 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Nottingham Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DEA6961E-45C0-4866-8506-617EC3B7F2CB" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Message-Id: <761CBA9A-D17C-4734-BAB6-3FD3F466AE83@mnot.net> References: <164274550462.17139.4495960850141080251@ietfa.amsl.com> To: manycouches@ietf.org Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 17:13:28 +1100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-scheduling-online-meetings-01.txt X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 06:13:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DEA6961E-45C0-4866-8506-617EC3B7F2CB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi SHMOO folks, Not sure if this is in-charter here, but thought some might be = interested. Feedback welcome (here,* privately, or on the GitHub issues = list). Cheers, * Note that I'm not subscribed, so please CC: me. > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-nottingham-scheduling-online-meetings-01.txt > Date: 21 January 2022 at 5:11:44 pm AEDT > To: "Mark Nottingham" >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, = draft-nottingham-scheduling-online-meetings-01.txt > has been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-nottingham-scheduling-online-meetings > Revision: 01 > Title: Scheduling Online Meetings > Document date: 2022-01-20 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 8 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-scheduling-online-meeting= s-01.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-scheduling-online-meetin= gs/ > Html: = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-scheduling-online-meeting= s-01.html > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-nottingham-scheduling-online-m= eetings > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-nottingham-scheduling-online-mee= tings-01 >=20 > Abstract: > This document recommends best practices when scheduling online > meetings. >=20 > About This Document >=20 > This note is to be removed before publishing as an RFC. >=20 > Status information for this document may be found at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-scheduling-online- > meetings/. >=20 > information can be found at https://mnot.github.io/I-D/. >=20 > Source for this draft and an issue tracker can be found at > https://github.com/mnot/I-D/labels/scheduling-online-meetings. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ --Apple-Mail=_DEA6961E-45C0-4866-8506-617EC3B7F2CB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = SHMOO folks,

Not = sure if this is in-charter here, but thought some might be interested. = Feedback welcome (here,* privately, or on the GitHub issues = list).

Cheers,


* Note that I'm not = subscribed, so please CC: me.

Begin = forwarded message:

Subject: = New Version = Notification for = draft-nottingham-scheduling-online-meetings-01.txt
Date: = 21 January 2022 at 5:11:44 pm = AEDT
To: = "Mark Nottingham" <mnot@mnot.net>

A new version of I-D, = draft-nottingham-scheduling-online-meetings-01.txt
has = been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: = draft-nottingham-scheduling-online-meetings
Revision: 01
Title: = Scheduling Online Meetings
Document date: = 2022-01-20
Group: Individual Submission
Pages:= = 8
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-scheduling-onl= ine-meetings-01.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-scheduling-on= line-meetings/
Html: =           https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-scheduling-onl= ine-meetings-01.html
Htmlized: =       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-nottingham-scheduli= ng-online-meetings
Diff: =           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-nottingham-scheduling= -online-meetings-01

Abstract:
  This document recommends best practices when = scheduling online
  meetings.

About This Document

=   This note is to be removed before publishing as an RFC.

  Status information for this = document may be found at
  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-scheduling-on= line-
  meetings/.

  information can be found at https://mnot.github.io/I-D/.

=   Source for this draft and an issue tracker can be found = at
  https://github.com/mnot/I-D/labels/scheduling-online-meetings.




The IETF Secretariat




= --Apple-Mail=_DEA6961E-45C0-4866-8506-617EC3B7F2CB-- From nobody Thu Jan 27 13:56:10 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 861C43A12CE; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:56:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1dwzDZHv96x4; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x229.google.com (mail-lj1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30D5D3A12CD; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x229.google.com with SMTP id t9so6261090lji.12; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:55:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=i7ptR10fnZCK5QgX0LFo0SJtsVY40tmT87NZSIvLQrI=; b=KMI0zFipGlwXEDrAjvryzHNIO1/Y8WDK1HiWA3fG3nDB/mNTVOddSHX8iQewexYSDx AOLK6RNKUg5SmIzUNS3xkfXsqA1oo89kTtbbHKZt7FKF9PUF158sf0JXqb+2YP3CHnel sjJUa5aZ6jEaMZXaC+SRhktLmsw1vJEezvpXYqt26V0fPKbpzPttBIv9wJcb9wnDixtE eyZNgcEW2qP07u6Dy+kKKQoS4X+Cn2crOktziohR3fITZAQNUPSikrelL8swkrg/MjDD 08ByDwSvEEeY8050USndhZzLYm1bTgBXsKEgOtTDQuDl+TPt7oTVgOHNOlh7+DHjOvrY 7uJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=i7ptR10fnZCK5QgX0LFo0SJtsVY40tmT87NZSIvLQrI=; b=jK8a4/w4gUjHL6vrTTB/La8LwmYnNIjkMRiRoGBj9CA8nClKJ53Ije+9fKucjcBUZr WKqrxZcoWgsrSt/PS2Ueifhd9dVERWdRsmQDe12hfG82j4w4MyHjr8Ucbq/koqJSIWJP fYaAbkz84JdHjqeMfOUwRTaJk07EgqQGxZggp8BNQCJUzBeBOsSq0jQpL7Vs1qf3SnVa X0z+//wXL2zLvTTJauvoAfCffXiw6tEPeSgPT/HQ7xvJSyVJVpNtqUnCz/Cya4UK5XC/ nUOFG+efXXL6s3A9rvZ87gONB7EqEbf3NJK9ZdPukBLY3akYlDx0Ow9l+x0/KOVpjjpZ MESg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Jx0dm/g1qHHkVqXQMSBngmkvkYqDdAgMcstmPlHbLOfbvGxsG Bz/OWWlAOf7YG2i+2TVy7jLhzZEcfKmDp6VGsUQgC7/tFW34/A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyWFYIemj73NCQQLIlj4RP3s2Qw3MITmR08ALpytQoyPyhcrU9KMjI+zgkodtedmnLWUF3ZtF47aa1vUf3IUC4= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b808:: with SMTP id u8mr3989911ljo.332.1643320553285; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 13:55:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org From: Behcet Sarikaya Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 15:55:39 -0600 Message-ID: To: manycouches@ietf.org, IETF , 113attendees@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d4ac1605d6976193" Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Remote attendance X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:56:01 -0000 --000000000000d4ac1605d6976193 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Folks, 113 registration page is up and when I looked I noticed that Choose one of the Onsite or Remote options below to register. but unfortunately I could not see Remote option? Behcet --000000000000d4ac1605d6976193 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Folks,

113 registration page is up a= nd when I looked I noticed that=C2=A0
Choose one of the Onsite or Remote options below to register.=C2=A0

but unfortunately I could not see Remote option?

Behcet
--000000000000d4ac1605d6976193-- From nobody Thu Jan 27 14:00:51 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EEC43A1300; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:00:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HiIW5O0KCPvB; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 308023A12FD; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF294096D32; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:00:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6tFCTbCOc5UP; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 361B14096D30; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:00:37 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <81F30908-4E4A-45D3-B0D4-341869EBD48E@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2C2BB9F2-2938-46F6-9C7B-21A62D8C4688" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 11:00:34 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: shmoo , IETF , 113attendees@ietf.org To: sarikaya@ieee.org References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] [113attendees] Remote attendance X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:00:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2C2BB9F2-2938-46F6-9C7B-21A62D8C4688 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 28/01/2022, at 10:55 AM, Behcet Sarikaya = wrote: >=20 > Hi Folks, >=20 > 113 registration page is up and when I looked I noticed that=20 > Choose one of the Onsite or Remote options below to register.=20 >=20 > but unfortunately I could not see Remote option? Please send support queries direct to support@ietf.org; it=E2=80=99s = much more efficient all round. I've forwarded this for you. thanks Jay >=20 > Behcet > --=20 > 113attendees mailing list > 113attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/113attendees --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_2C2BB9F2-2938-46F6-9C7B-21A62D8C4688 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = 28/01/2022, at 10:55 AM, Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Folks,

113 registration page is up and when I looked I noticed = that 
Choose one of = the Onsite or Remote options below to register. 

but = unfortunately I could not see Remote = option?

Please send support queries direct to support@ietf.org; it=E2=80= =99s much more efficient all round.  I've forwarded this for = you.

thanks
Jay


Behcet
--
113attendees mailing list
113attendees@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/113attendees

-- 
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_2C2BB9F2-2938-46F6-9C7B-21A62D8C4688-- From nobody Thu Jan 27 14:01:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255CE3A1300; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:00:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zlUPsy7r4P2l; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:00:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 467083A1331; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:00:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id j14so6341314lja.3; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:00:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=8GRO4y+BGgr8GcheGltqLbroD0fxykDQ9Q1iTf6cKvE=; b=Tzo1WG8TJkJZKJIw5Zr2vrDVeWA1MfcZ3nVz4dLvMTq0GRVXjc1pZ9R7SSaIVndWA6 lfL5Hd0Wn2VRqz3bHzjP6iftMFQ2IX/uBYArOWEocdbRyFbrNKoFAzyXPtaHAERM7Wkz Wgf5tgujjURET3tpgSR6CpClia4c79iKj0rZGfJX/luk6KugrBuIg/JPczQ3x2KqbFCp UD51W8DQiaNnqPcjFIuy27PMQLPEJOkgB3sxFFndMnPGF1dhacjt/eoEqEnQeo8hpfGI FY7LNAF7gDV/RLDVs/b+GrdWWLbA78qQLIYfLv3Eoz07V0RLqmBpN21KQsCEEd1Z5H+e IG0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8GRO4y+BGgr8GcheGltqLbroD0fxykDQ9Q1iTf6cKvE=; b=SJuvzSOhqoXfHWq+VwFra5Ip7EcRNqtyACtc3MijzzHZJ5RVqVMTxDbrRhlJ64FWCH x0RG/WDaiAXgvE4ggj5dnbyBloLMMEfxIyn1FiDuOsp4qZcdV8Gno6joiIVCJfnE9LbX J/fsmsGegDMhrn6pwduiX91LtecIXUdQjbNrT31vhk9q2vbHbLofzW/+aNIWo/RQhilN TEMSiQxCgH7UUaFLsuAA0tp1jg/dD1pKuBY/59flaXetzX6ZSkLK7sLgRL/yBiOZDex1 YbTgoiXEGvTczhoWI1gx79LIWvuvJese3StRbO5R1L7udC+wXtEJCLACDaYP6DWfr3GG WpVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532S4PIHlEy4eylFutdGzBMjv9EN2yS50xQeJ+dPviXleVsQUIj4 W8ZKXFW74R8WOcllaGPdFpdQ24ACxPjyX0kdtFVm+Tdmlqc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwCsf/Zn6HZV1zWc0u1sK6ZY+iAzNxHAmlKqDgwow9d/GK2RrhPAAMAhUmDWDzjMm3Bh9jb0sN+hDDFzXcTkN8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:12c6:: with SMTP id 6mr4147612lje.476.1643320849906; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:00:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org From: Behcet Sarikaya Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 16:00:39 -0600 Message-ID: To: manycouches@ietf.org, IETF , 113attendees@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000082bf7105d697731f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Remote attendance X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:01:02 -0000 --00000000000082bf7105d697731f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 3:55 PM Behcet Sarikaya wrote: > Hi Folks, > > 113 registration page is up and when I looked I noticed that > Choose one of the Onsite or Remote options below to register. > > but unfortunately I could not see Remote option? > > Sorry, my bad. There is the remote option. So there is no free remote attendance? > Behcet > --00000000000082bf7105d697731f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 3:55 PM Behce= t Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail= .com> wrote:
Hi Folks,
113 registration page is up and when I looked I noticed th= at=C2=A0
Choose one of the= Onsite or Remote options below to register.=C2=A0
<= /div>

but unfortunately I could not see Remote option?



So= rry, my bad.
There is the remote option.

So there is no free remote attendance?
=C2=A0
Behcet
--00000000000082bf7105d697731f-- From nobody Thu Jan 27 14:50:26 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52CD83A087D; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:50:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QUxfNetg2X4D; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:50:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85E5A3A0879; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:50:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 739BD4096D32; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:50:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A95OFQcD4A-I; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:50:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 962714096D30; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:50:11 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 11:50:07 +1300 Cc: shmoo , IETF , 113attendees@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: sarikaya@ieee.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] [113attendees] Remote attendance X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:50:16 -0000 Behcet > On 28/01/2022, at 11:00 AM, Behcet Sarikaya = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 3:55 PM Behcet Sarikaya = wrote: > Hi Folks, >=20 > 113 registration page is up and when I looked I noticed that=20 > Choose one of the Onsite or Remote options below to register.=20 >=20 > but unfortunately I could not see Remote option? >=20 >=20 >=20 > Sorry, my bad. > There is the remote option. >=20 > So there is no free remote attendance? You will have been contacted directly by the Secretariat, but to clarify = for the other 1000+ people copied in - yes there is the same fee waiver = option as we have had for recent meeting as explained in my = announcement: > # Remote participation fee waivers >=20 > We understand that not everyone can afford the IETF 113 remote > registration fee for a variety of reasons and we do not want any of > these to be a barrier to participation. For that reason, we make an > unlimited number of fee waivers available to remote participants and > operate on a trust basis, making no checks on eligibility. If you are > planning to participate remotely and cannot afford the registration = fee > then please take the fee waiver option: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/forms/113-registration-fee-waiver/ Please send any follow ups direct to me or support@ietf.org thanks Jay > =20 > Behcet > --=20 > 113attendees mailing list > 113attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/113attendees --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Thu Jan 27 16:30:57 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B37043A10BB; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 16:30:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bg2Nzj6t9wjE; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 16:30:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com (mail-pf1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C55D3A10B3; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 16:30:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id n32so4507198pfv.11; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 16:30:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vD8ZbfwI0nfSCtjyeqzh7Akzacx3rl4O/Zep+gxPa3I=; b=LV29khjAswdqfvagKw6r1GgoWCSjFHzDOOPqVY9B113H6I4YtrfAceF+uTqTUdQkbT XBc8t6enYLu/GA21/C+t74ii6FZgDtHke3aZhhPKXhoRuSbTKXvv6WX0bqD9slNbEFwz g89wETbXIlfrUmDxbM7s7IMBzg4GnWKStR8NFtMgCWjgGEe8BI/WkZF+UOcgkCSK7tWi /0vMlC85bzYywN/MGtzD2VSKmwAEo3Iy1+1x988gfNnoir1D25dJf6bbFGKqqmGAvmTI P9sTZyiA1Vuv1fU6JJgawbGwEA3g35OjFVNYeezTqvTqBKeVlbYN6mX6xTm4YDM8zaPf 8ydg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vD8ZbfwI0nfSCtjyeqzh7Akzacx3rl4O/Zep+gxPa3I=; b=0fxWuK3rIptwlqrek/hciYcPOgwe3/e+dUnAWoHUgfPE2Um/2YFjcdHdMi1LYeYqsf cmcjxANtz3WQ1eNVg3XRelWVj87d0UYRbaCltoEFoKKsx1bwpkVbifXLKCsXq6fahz8G 7Cr3EfzlFaqBW96IR/bjJvBbWnyIKUO67fsWFfXp0/PEYB5KqLW7U6ShcjpavXXz6yRM Osi2iH2T/6W8LTp8S2+VlojGRo7udauHv9crwOIi84butuFXRo4G1ichzgss7570nSmu hl87GaQtwPcSoVh7c1QDYYKUCMfLxmmwuM6yoNaEcSAaZhNBGdFrfANHm5q3wSQbQBZI W7Ew== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530FIb5jgAEAaxXw88o6LLmORwMjFdiNYOcFSOwyAJb/OirOwjUz q4ttF3hkyUnoDPKHdJPenKWWCLKeO893cA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw7ObGwhEukaJ0Nw+3Ac+akWtT2ZnwW42YzN1gborIJW4iOPCj19GPYBRdrdwMEJvRn6dw/1A== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:21c5:: with SMTP id t5mr5361823pfj.17.1643329831074; Thu, 27 Jan 2022 16:30:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d1sm6936679pfj.179.2022.01.27.16.30.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Jan 2022 16:30:30 -0800 (PST) To: 113attendees@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org References: <321C40AC-5B24-49F5-B2C1-1AD8AF20F2DC@staff.ietf.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <93750011-435f-bd78-f61d-4941386ae9a4@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 13:30:25 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <321C40AC-5B24-49F5-B2C1-1AD8AF20F2DC@staff.ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] [admin-discuss] IETF 113 Updates on 2022-01-19 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 00:30:42 -0000 As far as I can tell, it's impossible to tell from any of the posted info= rmation what time the meetings will start and end each day. That's vital = information for anyone considering remote participation. Regards Brian Carpenter On 20-Jan-22 05:56, Greg Wood wrote: > Hello, >=20 > A few updates as we work to organize and come together for our first-ev= er hybrid IETF meeting on 19-25 March: >=20 > + Registration > Registration is now expected to be open next week (after 24 January). T= here have been unforeseen delays with the VAT process which must be compl= eted before accepting registrations. This is now expected to be completed=20 in the next few days. Further details about how the registration process = will work will be shared shortly ahead of its opening. >=20 > + Participant discussions > The 113attendees@ietf.org email list is set up for discussions related = to the upcoming meeting. The list is now open for subscription by anyone = (including those who are not yet sure about whether they will register fo= r in person or remote participation) at: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/113attendees >=20 > Replies to this message are set to be sent to that list. >=20 > The IETF 113 meeting wiki is also now live at: >=20 > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/ietf113 >=20 > Both the mailing list and wiki may be used by anyone contemplating IETF=20 113 participation, for example to share information about things not arra= nged by the LLC or Secretariat such as local amenities and travel insuran= ce. >=20 > + Questions and FAQs > For answers from the Secretariat to specific questions related to IETF = 113, please send email to: support@ietf.org >=20 > A combined FAQ provides information relevant to the IETF 113 meeting an= d includes COVID-related information: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/113/faq >=20 > + Further information > Going forward, regular updates and important information about the upco= ming meeting will be shared via the usual channels, including the ietf-an= nounce and 113all announcement lists. We expect to provide updates at the=20 end of each week leading up to=E2=80=94and daily updates during=E2=80=94t= he meeting to the 113all@ietf.org mailing list. >=20 > We appreciate the heightened interest in and questions about holding a = meeting in a new format in these challenging times. Please know that the = IESG, IETF LLC Board, IETF Secretariat, LLC staff, and NOC team are commi= tted to organizing a meeting that is as safe and productive as possible. = There are obviously many unique issues to deal with in a rapidly changing=20 environment so your understanding as the health situation continues to ch= ange is appreciated. >=20 > To reiterate: We expect to provide regular updates as we head towards t= he meeting. At any time, questions about IETF 113 are welcome at support@= ietf.org. >=20 >=20 > Thank you, >=20 > Greg Wood > Director of Communications and Operations > IETF Administration LLC >=20 >=20 From nobody Mon Jan 31 11:36:16 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07043A14A7; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 11:35:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D6uftmHibOed; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 11:35:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C098F3A14A5; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 11:35:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:49a9:3c31:e49e:a32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0385B1D2DB3; Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:35:31 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1643657732; bh=8bko6J98mXNOYMQhfCh629M4o3E7Q80vvuVR+a33ab8=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=RjDgsd4v5ZPcAi3sRu4l7DaBy/ctecZCpex+YllDT+w5UDnzW/D03CZv1601fPSG4 0JwkOrczv57iDSjFDRc/yEfUh3OR+eVfnPgHkihrzzKzTKJN0wyP+ENZiQC0ylBbq8 pIZyd83BLZkKosELWRNzLNQR5w5ono7cM/JFh3xs= Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AFEF0639-2B9D-442D-9F5D-8FE00660D1C4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <93750011-435f-bd78-f61d-4941386ae9a4@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:35:30 +0200 Cc: 113attendees@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, admin-discuss@ietf.org Message-Id: References: <321C40AC-5B24-49F5-B2C1-1AD8AF20F2DC@staff.ietf.org> <93750011-435f-bd78-f61d-4941386ae9a4@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-MailScanner-ID: 0385B1D2DB3.A3A60 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Meeting schedule (was: Re: [admin-discuss] IETF 113 Updates on 2022-01-19) X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 19:35:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AFEF0639-2B9D-442D-9F5D-8FE00660D1C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2022-1-28, at 2:30, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: > As far as I can tell, it's impossible to tell from any of the posted = information what time the meetings will start and end each day. That's = vital information for anyone considering remote participation. I apologize that we haven't published details yet. The plan is to roughly stick with the schedule of a fully online = meeting, i.e., start at around mid-day local time and run for around six = hours. I'm waving my hands a bit here, because we are still discussing with the = venue about some required procedures, such as for meal breaks and room = disinfection, among others. Depending on the details, those may = necessitate some longer breaks than we had during fully online meetings. = So we may need to start somewhat earlier than we did for the fully = online meetings, and/or we may need to run for a bit longer, in order to = end up with sufficient session time. We're hoping to have all the information from the venue early next week. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_AFEF0639-2B9D-442D-9F5D-8FE00660D1C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmH4OgIACgkQVLXDCb9w wVfC6xAAtrpX7Ey62hFm01fXxqa7Eu/HNfTOiq/jcnUsZXfJrHIpuwFZE1twgmyO 5aefF6VJwDGjSGVYt5kxPureFE+ImNh4xnbu2r2MdYgjieRDBmpARxOLIrAAO9Rj 1r0k+PcRfT3BZ9WHVoeiHTqTogGIBQg4lr+M4hwBP1KOwujs7bOnCxLuhP23bKSf rddS1i5q00n1lLr9LTAsiURWb6lc94f6M3H1gTqq39Uvm5hQvqnfuo0+EJg945Lv 78HRHKP1bz8diOYHq0YY82l75B76IHhX45PTKnSCY2wmmjHDrtFI+A4VxIrMNF1y W83QAxPbTr+Ok6QAHHJ9JLB8xVbSLUCGr6COifRDufo0pz1U+MAPeFhguWcPiLR7 5mkEQIymb/2ybdTnfZm9zEDvFSRnDmZ+1hgnEa4UYulsmZohDb2ONv1JAVNQMJne +mXfLieHLrjAP6TgvUMbPOQ0IDKILISwd351/FFci1COMk3s/qyYDEmTSqtRs7iZ axpvPts0e+g5hcrlHWDbwZA4aoGWvo3j4xuGj6lbOUZ6l3u0nBEpgIvMh1L4GHkb ERvV9H1ROEKKLOndefLMXrKTwmly6kS9EWrH603mXMCfRjqmuK4CrpSnY8bBqLME Dfg2Xg7I4MFx3kFGmo28Qp86a5fvJp2ldqlQZGMdLxUZsAdTIYo= =MsR0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_AFEF0639-2B9D-442D-9F5D-8FE00660D1C4--