From nobody Thu Apr 7 04:21:33 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0586D3A17DB for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 04:21:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.662 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.662 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D7WECKRG_Hah for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 04:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC53F3A17DA for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 04:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 237BLPJK036685 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 13:21:25 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 516BC204EF1 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 13:21:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B90A204DAF for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 13:21:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.32.130] (is245935.intra.cea.fr [10.8.32.130]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 237BLPp0016012 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 13:21:25 +0200 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------M6uqDRkCvCpKKF1oSXn9P16Y" Message-ID: <5f54cc2f-4d61-c43f-dbf5-459c6715d581@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 13:21:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] daring a covid forecast for Prague in Nov. 2023 - update X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 11:21:31 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------M6uqDRkCvCpKKF1oSXn9P16Y Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Update: my forecast was optimistic. In reality, the peak of covid new cases happened almost 2 times higher than forecast, and it appeared cca 1month earlier than forecast - February rather than March. This figure immediatley below is the wave form that happened (the blue line is the new covid cases, and the red is the deceased): The 'extrapolation' I made earlier was playing with curves, some inspiration, but I did not use mathematics. Alex Le 22/11/2021 à 14:55, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > > Hi, shmoo, > > Prague is proposed potentially as a plan for an in-person meeting in > November 2023. > > How was covid been taken into account for this plan? > > Will Prague be in the peak, low, growth or descent of the wave at the > time? > > Based on the wave form in the Czech Republic one could extrapolate: > > > > One could use software tools to extrapolate, like excel: > > > The starting point is from the Economist: > > > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --------------M6uqDRkCvCpKKF1oSXn9P16Y Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------lgvCV0Al6IoonJoDke7YU6Oi" --------------lgvCV0Al6IoonJoDke7YU6Oi Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Update: my forecast was optimistic.

In reality, the peak of covid new cases happened almost 2 times higher than forecast, and it appeared cca 1month earlier than forecast - February rather than March.

This figure immediatley below is the wave form that happened (the blue line is the new covid cases, and the red is the deceased):


The 'extrapolation' I made earlier was playing with curves, some inspiration, but I did not use mathematics.

Alex


Le 22/11/2021 à 14:55, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit :

Hi, shmoo,

Prague is proposed potentially as a plan for an in-person meeting in November 2023.

How was covid been taken into account for this plan?

Will Prague be in the peak, low, growth or descent of the wave at the time?

Based on the wave form in the Czech Republic one could extrapolate:



One could use software tools to extrapolate, like excel:


The starting point is from the Economist:



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Apr 2022 07:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 237E7E88003056 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 16:07:14 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id AD64A205179 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 16:07:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 991BA204F82 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 16:07:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.32.130] (is245935.intra.cea.fr [10.8.32.130]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 237E7D8B030472 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2022 16:07:14 +0200 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------YdvSJvwtB2AhXvzc9er27M03" Message-ID: <29bd1839-9852-49a1-753b-ed127ccf03b8@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 16:07:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <5f54cc2f-4d61-c43f-dbf5-459c6715d581@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <5f54cc2f-4d61-c43f-dbf5-459c6715d581@gmail.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] daring a covid forecast for Prague in Nov. 2023 - update X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 14:07:24 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------YdvSJvwtB2AhXvzc9er27M03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (I mean the _first_ peak after the prediction moment) (Prague for Nov. 2023 is no more a City for IETF, it changed to London) Le 07/04/2022 à 13:21, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > > Update: my forecast was optimistic. > > In reality, the peak of covid new cases happened almost 2 times higher > than forecast, and it appeared cca 1month earlier than forecast - > February rather than March. > > This figure immediatley below is the wave form that happened (the blue > line is the new covid cases, and the red is the deceased): > > > The 'extrapolation' I made earlier was playing with curves, some > inspiration, but I did not use mathematics. > > Alex > > > Le 22/11/2021 à 14:55, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >> >> Hi, shmoo, >> >> Prague is proposed potentially as a plan for an in-person meeting in >> November 2023. >> >> How was covid been taken into account for this plan? >> >> Will Prague be in the peak, low, growth or descent of the wave at the >> time? >> >> Based on the wave form in the Czech Republic one could extrapolate: >> >> >> >> One could use software tools to extrapolate, like excel: >> >> >> The starting point is from the Economist: >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Manycouches mailing list >> Manycouches@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --------------YdvSJvwtB2AhXvzc9er27M03 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------j50Lq9b0rQpxXOVr0W7PR0Rb" --------------j50Lq9b0rQpxXOVr0W7PR0Rb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

(I mean the _first_ peak after the prediction moment)

(Prague for Nov. 2023 is no more a City for IETF, it changed to London)

Le 07/04/2022 à 13:21, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit :

Update: my forecast was optimistic.

In reality, the peak of covid new cases happened almost 2 times higher than forecast, and it appeared cca 1month earlier than forecast - February rather than March.

This figure immediatley below is the wave form that happened (the blue line is the new covid cases, and the red is the deceased):


The 'extrapolation' I made earlier was playing with curves, some inspiration, but I did not use mathematics.

Alex


Le 22/11/2021 à 14:55, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit :

Hi, shmoo,

Prague is proposed potentially as a plan for an in-person meeting in November 2023.

How was covid been taken into account for this plan?

Will Prague be in the peak, low, growth or descent of the wave at the time?

Based on the wave form in the Czech Republic one could extrapolate:



One could use software tools to extrapolate, like excel:


The starting point is from the Economist:



_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches

_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches
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Manycouches@ietf.org Content-Language: en-US From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------zYNJ8bT5zQpZWHL0dQfLAx77" Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 14:32:56 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------zYNJ8bT5zQpZWHL0dQfLAx77 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------MqQ8w6lutNEK93sS113VxRlM"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> Subject: Daniel presentation @ 113 --------------MqQ8w6lutNEK93sS113VxRlM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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Hi everyone,

Some time ago, I wrote the IETF about how I was embarrassed by my kid about how I was wrecking the future for the next generation by doing so much flying to meetings.=C2=A0 This turned into a draft ca= lled draft-lear-we-gotta-stop-meeting-like-this.=C2=A0 That draft just a= sked for us, primarily the LLC to begin to study the problem.=C2=A0 Jay = has worked on that and looked at carbon offsets, amongst other things, and also sought to quantify the impact.

That's all goodness.

I support reduction of in-person meetings, and for reasons I will outline below.=C2=A0 I won't propose a specific course of action in= this message, but I think my preference is pretty clear.

I listened to the recording of the shmoo meeting regarding Daniel's analysis, and I took from it several points. The points I took away were these:

  • By some models on average, individuals that attend three meetings per year create as much emissions as an average German in one year.
  • There was a question of whether the recommendation should be from 3 meetings per year to 3 meetings every two years or 1 meeting per year.

I want to to express the same skepticism that Ted Lemon expressed about carbon offsets.=C2=A0 Carbon offsets are market-based approac= hes that attempt to hold constant or reduce overall carbon output.=C2=A0= These are very useful when there is no alternative for the emitter.=C2=A0 A good example would be a steel producer.=C2=A0 Our = society needs steel.

When there are alternatives, the analysis is quite a bit more complex.=C2=A0 By the people voluntarily buying offsets, it makes a= commodity of them, and creates a price, raising that price as their demand increases.=C2=A0 Those who have a choice are thus competing with those who don't have a choice, raising the latter's cost of goods and services, and discouraging those producers from participating voluntarily =E2=80=93 and/or causing those who previo= usly didn't participate in the market to do so, with the idea of increasing available inventory.=C2=A0 This invites a certain amount= of gaming to take place, particularly if you as a producer know you are already going to reduce your emissions, perhaps due to slacking demand.=C2=A0 There are also potential moral hazards associated with establishing baselines; and additional challenges when viewing those baselines over time, such as whether they should reduce annually, thus reducing their availability and further increasing their price.=C2=A0

I am not saying that carbon offsets should never be considered, but I don't think they should be considered a simple "Go To".=C2=A0 This ties to the point several people aligned to, th= at somehow we oughtn't do our part because we are a drop in a bucket.=C2=A0 This we may be, but the argument has led entire countries, such as the United States to not do their part, because they point to China in particular, and claim a competitive disadvantage.=C2=A0 We have no such excuse, really, even if we acce= pt it as an excuse, which we shouldn't.

As to Martin's point, while I might agree that WebRTC has a beneficial impact on the environment, when used as an alternative to meet in person, what we do not know is whether WebRTC would have even been delayed by holding only one in-person meeting per year.

This leaves open the question of whether reducing to one meeting per year or three meetings every two years would make a difference.=C2=A0 Of course it would.=C2=A0 You may debate t= he model that Daniel used, but certainly there is a cost, and it is not a pittance.=C2=A0 The question is whether we can function as well as = a community if we maintain a lower tempo of in-person meetings.=C2=A0= I would argue that we have the opportunity to work better.=C2=A0= IETF meeting time always comes at a premium, and working groups receive at most 3 hours time.=C2=A0 While that time may be necessar= y, it is rarely sufficient.=C2=A0 Interims for any active group are a requirement.=C2=A0 Virtual interims, in most cases.

I am not saying that hallway wg meetings are not important.=C2=A0 There is value there, but I don't know how to quantify it.

In fact all of this is, of course, my opinion; and not backed with a whole lot of data.=C2=A0 Daniel has provided some.=C2=A0 As = a practical matter, I don't think we have a choice, but to reduce our plans for the number of in-person meetings.=C2=A0 Compan= ies are not going to put up with the previous level of travel, and many individuals do not feel comfortable traveling.=C2=A0 Maybe tha= t will change, but as we have seen, hybrid meetings themselves have their challenges.

There are other benefits to virtual plenary meetings that are not related to the environment, but we can debate those in other messages.

Eliot

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([2406:e003:1005:b501:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u18-20020a056a00125200b004fb112ee9b7sm32951543pfi.75.2022.04.11.13.59.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Apr 2022 13:59:42 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear , Manycouches@ietf.org References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <49971239-9d72-f645-ecd2-92612e75dd20@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 08:59:38 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 20:59:50 -0000 I'm with Eliot. My conclusion since my first experience with remote meeti= ngs is that an annual face-to-face meeting is enough to maintain social c= ontact, as long as there is regular audio-visual contact in between. ("Vi= sual" is important; voice calls are not as effective at maintaining socia= l bonds.) Maybe somebody here has a tame sociologist who can actually cit= e some research into this? Although we don't use Zoom for IETF meetings, = I hope that there's now lots of data due to Zoom usage during the pandemi= c. Regards Brian On 12-Apr-22 02:32, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi everyone, >=20 > Some time ago, I wrote the IETF about how I was embarrassed by my kid a= bout how I was wrecking the future for the next generation by doing so mu= ch flying to meetings.=C2=A0 This turned into a draft called draft-lear-w= e-gotta-stop-meeting-like-this.=C2=A0 That draft just asked for us, prima= rily the LLC to begin to study the problem.=C2=A0 Jay has worked on that = and looked at carbon offsets, amongst other things, and also sought to qu= antify the impact. >=20 > That's all goodness. >=20 > I support reduction of in-person meetings, and for reasons I will outli= ne below.=C2=A0 I won't propose a specific course of action in this messa= ge, but I think my preference is pretty clear. >=20 > I listened to the recording of the shmoo meeting regarding Daniel's ana= lysis, and I took from it several points. The points I took away were the= se: >=20 > * By some models on average, individuals that attend three meetings p= er year create as much emissions as an average German in one year. > * There was a question of whether the recommendation should be from 3=20 meetings per year to 3 meetings every two years or 1 meeting per year. >=20 > I want to to express the same skepticism that Ted Lemon expressed about=20 carbon offsets.=C2=A0 Carbon offsets are market-based approaches that att= empt to hold constant or reduce overall carbon output. These are very use= ful when there is no alternative for the emitter.=C2=A0 A good example wo= uld be a steel producer.=C2=A0 Our society needs steel. >=20 > When there are alternatives, the analysis is quite a bit more complex.=C2= =A0 By the people voluntarily buying offsets, it makes a commodity of the= m, and creates a price, raising that price as their demand increases.=C2=A0=20 Those who have a choice are thus competing with those who don't have a ch= oice, raising the latter's cost of goods and services, and discouraging t= hose producers from participating voluntarily =E2=80=93 and/or causing th= ose who previously didn't participate in the market to do so, with the id= ea of increasing available inventory.=C2=A0 This invites a certain amount=20 of gaming to take place, particularly if you as a producer know you are a= lready going to reduce your emissions, perhaps due to slacking demand.=C2= =A0 There are also potential moral hazards associated with establishing b= aselines; and additional challenges when viewing those baselines over tim= e, such as whether they should reduce annually, thus reducing their avail= ability and further increasing their price. >=20 > I am *not* saying that carbon offsets should never be considered, but I=20 don't think they should be considered a simple "Go To".=C2=A0 This ties t= o the point several people aligned to, that somehow we oughtn't do our pa= rt because we are a drop in a bucket.=C2=A0 This we may be, but the argum= ent has led entire countries, such as the United States to not do their p= art, because they point to China in particular, and claim a competitive d= isadvantage.=C2=A0 We have no such excuse, really, even if we accept it a= s an excuse, which we shouldn't. >=20 > As to Martin's point, while I might agree that WebRTC has a beneficial = impact on the environment, when used as an alternative to meet in person,=20 what we do not know is whether WebRTC would have even been delayed by hol= ding only one in-person meeting per year. >=20 > This leaves open the question of whether reducing to one meeting per ye= ar or three meetings every two years would make a difference. *Of course*=20 it would.=C2=A0 You may debate the model that Daniel used, but certainly = there is a cost, and it is not a pittance.=C2=A0 The question is whether = we can function as well as a community if we maintain a lower tempo of in= -person meetings.=C2=A0 I would argue that we have the opportunity to wor= k *better*. IETF meeting time always comes at a premium, and working grou= ps receive at most 3 hours time.=C2=A0 While that time may be necessary, = it is rarely sufficient.=C2=A0 Interims for any active group are a requir= ement.=C2=A0 Virtual interims, in most cases. >=20 > I am not saying that hallway wg meetings are not important. There is va= lue there, but I don't know how to quantify it. >=20 > In fact all of this is, of course, my opinion; and not backed with a wh= ole lot of data.=C2=A0 Daniel has provided some.=C2=A0 As a practical mat= ter, I don't think we have a choice, *but* to reduce our plans for the nu= mber of in-person meetings.=C2=A0 Companies are not going to put up with = the previous level of travel, and many individuals do not feel comfortabl= e traveling.=C2=A0 Maybe that will change, but as we have seen, hybrid me= etings themselves have their challenges. >=20 > There are other benefits to virtual plenary meetings that are not relat= ed to the environment, but we can debate those in other messages. >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches >=20 From nobody Tue Apr 12 02:57:08 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 583B63A1864 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 02:57:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.115 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.115 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3p6_zYzCtApn for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 02:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (unknown [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 537F93A1862 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 02:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC3D4095305; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 02:57:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p7U55YtHKFfZ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 02:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [213.205.194.108]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 35EE84095303; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 02:57:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_36A2B103-48B1-48ED-B4B8-FF72F3034A33" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 10:56:58 +0100 In-Reply-To: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> Cc: Manycouches@ietf.org To: Eliot Lear References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:57:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_36A2B103-48B1-48ED-B4B8-FF72F3034A33 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Eliot The major point about offsetting, which I think we agree about, is that = offsetting is an "after the fact" action, not a preventative measure. I = understand that some will say "what=E2=80=99s the harm in meeting X = times, if we offset all the emissions" but, without commenting on the = rights and wrongs of that, the response to that should not be to attack = offsetting as a concept. Instead, we should be taking the approach that = it is vital for us to offset all of our emissions, whatever the level of = those emissions. In other words whether we meet three times a year or = once a year, we should be offsetting those emissions. When it comes to choosing the offsetting mechanism(s), the plan I = outlined at shmoo was to bring in experts to hold some open sessions = where they explain the various methods and help us make an informed = choice. As someone in shmoo pointed out, one of the largest aggregate = emitters of carbon are kerosene lamps and schemes aimed at replacing = those are direct offset schemes, not a carbon credit market. When we discuss how often to meet in person, I strongly recommend = looking at the data from our post-meeting surveys: = https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/past/ = Reading through all of those = shows some clear data points: - productivity at in-person meetings is, on average, much higher than = remote meetings,. Sure, we can=E2=80=99t quantify this and we don=E2=80=99= t have the other links in the chain to measure if that increase in = productivity leads to a reduction in effort elsewhere. - the ability of people to come to in-person meetings depends very much = on where the meeting is held. If we drop down to one meeting per year = then we will rotate through every region over a three year cycle and for = many people that will mean they can only meet in person once every three = years. =20 Neither of those are meant to be "that=E2=80=99s why we should continue = to meet 3x a year" arguments, just points to consider in the overall = debate. Finally, I have a strong suspicion that we are only talking about doing = our part by reducing flying because it=E2=80=99s so visible a = contributor not because it has the most potential. Like Martin, it = seems obvious to me that the biggest potential is in the protocols = themselves, but that of course is hard to measure, hard to understand = how design affects emissions, and hard to get people to look at. Having = said that, I can certainly see a point when RFCs have an "Carbon = emissions considerations" section or something broader. Jay > On 11 Apr 2022, at 15:32, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > Hi everyone, >=20 > Some time ago, I wrote the IETF about how I was embarrassed by my kid = about how I was wrecking the future for the next generation by doing so = much flying to meetings. This turned into a draft called = draft-lear-we-gotta-stop-meeting-like-this. That draft just asked for = us, primarily the LLC to begin to study the problem. Jay has worked on = that and looked at carbon offsets, amongst other things, and also sought = to quantify the impact. >=20 > That's all goodness. >=20 > I support reduction of in-person meetings, and for reasons I will = outline below. I won't propose a specific course of action in this = message, but I think my preference is pretty clear. >=20 > I listened to the recording of the shmoo meeting regarding Daniel's = analysis, and I took from it several points. The points I took away were = these: >=20 > By some models on average, individuals that attend three meetings per = year create as much emissions as an average German in one year. > There was a question of whether the recommendation should be from 3 = meetings per year to 3 meetings every two years or 1 meeting per year. >=20 > I want to to express the same skepticism that Ted Lemon expressed = about carbon offsets. Carbon offsets are market-based approaches that = attempt to hold constant or reduce overall carbon output. These are = very useful when there is no alternative for the emitter. A good = example would be a steel producer. Our society needs steel. >=20 > When there are alternatives, the analysis is quite a bit more complex. = By the people voluntarily buying offsets, it makes a commodity of them, = and creates a price, raising that price as their demand increases. = Those who have a choice are thus competing with those who don't have a = choice, raising the latter's cost of goods and services, and = discouraging those producers from participating voluntarily =E2=80=93 = and/or causing those who previously didn't participate in the market to = do so, with the idea of increasing available inventory. This invites a = certain amount of gaming to take place, particularly if you as a = producer know you are already going to reduce your emissions, perhaps = due to slacking demand. There are also potential moral hazards = associated with establishing baselines; and additional challenges when = viewing those baselines over time, such as whether they should reduce = annually, thus reducing their availability and further increasing their = price. =20 >=20 > I am not saying that carbon offsets should never be considered, but I = don't think they should be considered a simple "Go To". This ties to = the point several people aligned to, that somehow we oughtn't do our = part because we are a drop in a bucket. This we may be, but the = argument has led entire countries, such as the United States to not do = their part, because they point to China in particular, and claim a = competitive disadvantage. We have no such excuse, really, even if we = accept it as an excuse, which we shouldn't. >=20 > As to Martin's point, while I might agree that WebRTC has a beneficial = impact on the environment, when used as an alternative to meet in = person, what we do not know is whether WebRTC would have even been = delayed by holding only one in-person meeting per year. >=20 > This leaves open the question of whether reducing to one meeting per = year or three meetings every two years would make a difference. Of = course it would. You may debate the model that Daniel used, but = certainly there is a cost, and it is not a pittance. The question is = whether we can function as well as a community if we maintain a lower = tempo of in-person meetings. I would argue that we have the opportunity = to work better. IETF meeting time always comes at a premium, and = working groups receive at most 3 hours time. While that time may be = necessary, it is rarely sufficient. Interims for any active group are a = requirement. Virtual interims, in most cases. >=20 > I am not saying that hallway wg meetings are not important. There is = value there, but I don't know how to quantify it. >=20 > In fact all of this is, of course, my opinion; and not backed with a = whole lot of data. Daniel has provided some. As a practical matter, I = don't think we have a choice, but to reduce our plans for the number of = in-person meetings. Companies are not going to put up with the previous = level of travel, and many individuals do not feel comfortable traveling. = Maybe that will change, but as we have seen, hybrid meetings themselves = have their challenges. >=20 > There are other benefits to virtual plenary meetings that are not = related to the environment, but we can debate those in other messages. >=20 > Eliot >=20 > >=20 >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_36A2B103-48B1-48ED-B4B8-FF72F3034A33 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Eliot

The major = point about offsetting, which I think we agree about, is that offsetting = is an "after the fact" action, not a preventative measure.  I = understand that some will say "what=E2=80=99s the harm in meeting X = times, if we offset all the emissions" but, without commenting on the = rights and wrongs of that, the response to that should not be to attack = offsetting as a concept.  Instead, we should be taking the approach = that it is vital for us to offset all of our emissions, whatever the = level of those emissions.  In other words whether we meet three = times a year or once a year, we should be offsetting those = emissions.

When = it comes to choosing the offsetting mechanism(s), the plan I outlined at = shmoo was to bring in experts to hold some open sessions where they = explain the various methods and help us make an informed choice. =  As someone in shmoo pointed out, one of the largest aggregate = emitters of carbon are kerosene lamps and schemes aimed at replacing = those are direct offset schemes, not a carbon credit market.


When we discuss how often to meet in person, I strongly = recommend looking at the data from our post-meeting surveys: https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/past/  Reading = through all of those shows some clear data points:

- productivity at = in-person meetings is, on average, much higher than remote meetings,. =  Sure, we can=E2=80=99t quantify this and we don=E2=80=99t have the = other links in the chain to measure if that increase in productivity = leads to a reduction in effort elsewhere.

- the ability of people to come to = in-person meetings depends very much on where the meeting is held. =  If we drop down to one meeting per year then we will rotate = through every region over a three year cycle and for many people that = will mean they can only meet in person once every three years. =  

Neither = of those are meant to be "that=E2=80=99s why we should continue to meet = 3x a year" arguments, just points to consider in the overall = debate.


Finally, I have a strong suspicion that = we are only talking about doing our part by reducing flying because = it=E2=80=99s so visible a contributor not because it has the most = potential.  Like Martin, it seems obvious to me that the biggest = potential is in the protocols themselves, but that of course is hard to = measure, hard to understand how design affects emissions, and hard to = get people to look at.  Having said that, I can certainly see a = point when RFCs have an "Carbon emissions considerations" section or = something broader.

Jay

On 11 Apr 2022, at 15:32, Eliot = Lear <lear@lear.ch> = wrote:

Signed PGP part
=20 =20

Hi everyone,

Some time = ago, I wrote the IETF about how I was embarrassed by my kid about how I was wrecking the future for the next generation by doing so much flying to meetings.  This turned into a draft = called draft-lear-we-gotta-stop-meeting-like-this.  That draft just = asked for us, primarily the LLC to begin to study the problem.  Jay = has worked on that and looked at carbon offsets, amongst other things, and also sought to quantify the impact.

That's = all goodness.

I support reduction of in-person = meetings, and for reasons I will outline below.  I won't propose a specific course of action = in this message, but I think my preference is pretty clear.

I listened to the recording of the shmoo meeting regarding Daniel's analysis, and I took from it several points. The points I took away were these:

  • By some models on average, individuals that attend = three meetings per year create as much emissions as an average German in one year.
  • There was a question of whether the recommendation = should be from 3 meetings per year to 3 meetings every two years or 1 meeting per year.

I want to = to express the same skepticism that Ted Lemon expressed about carbon offsets.  Carbon offsets are market-based = approaches that attempt to hold constant or reduce overall carbon = output.  These are very useful when there is no alternative for the emitter.  A good example would be a steel producer.  Our = society needs steel.

When there are alternatives, the = analysis is quite a bit more complex.  By the people voluntarily buying offsets, it makes = a commodity of them, and creates a price, raising that price as their demand increases.  Those who have a choice are thus competing with those who don't have a choice, raising the latter's cost of goods and services, and discouraging those producers from participating voluntarily =E2=80=93 and/or causing those who = previously didn't participate in the market to do so, with the idea of increasing available inventory.  This invites a certain = amount of gaming to take place, particularly if you as a producer know you are already going to reduce your emissions, perhaps due to slacking demand.  There are also potential moral hazards associated with establishing baselines; and additional challenges when viewing those baselines over time, such as whether they should reduce annually, thus reducing their availability and further increasing their price. 

I am not saying that carbon = offsets should never be considered, but I don't think they should be considered a simple "Go To".  This ties to the point several people aligned to, = that somehow we oughtn't do our part because we are a drop in a bucket.  This we may be, but the argument has led entire countries, such as the United States to not do their part, because they point to China in particular, and claim a competitive disadvantage.  We have no such excuse, really, even if we = accept it as an excuse, which we shouldn't.

As to Martin's point, while I might agree that = WebRTC has a beneficial impact on the environment, when used as an alternative to meet in person, what we do not know is whether WebRTC would have even been delayed by holding only one in-person meeting per year.

This leaves open the question of whether reducing = to one meeting per year or three meetings every two years would make a difference.  Of course it would.  You = may debate the model that Daniel used, but certainly there is a cost, and it is not a pittance.  The question is whether we can function as well as = a community if we maintain a lower tempo of in-person = meetings.  I would argue that we have the opportunity to work better.  IETF meeting time always comes at a premium, and working groups receive at most 3 hours time.  While that time may be = necessary, it is rarely sufficient.  Interims for any active group are a requirement.  Virtual interims, in most cases.

I am not saying that hallway wg meetings are not = important.  There is value there, but I don't know how to quantify it.

In fact all of this is, of course, my opinion; and = not backed with a whole lot of data.  Daniel has provided some.  As = a practical matter, I don't think we have a choice, but to reduce our plans for the number of in-person meetings.  = Companies are not going to put up with the previous level of travel, and many individuals do not feel comfortable traveling.  Maybe = that will change, but as we have seen, hybrid meetings themselves have their challenges.

There are other benefits to = virtual plenary meetings that are not related to the environment, but we can debate those in other messages.

Eliot

<OpenPGP_0x87B66B46D9D2= 7A33.asc>


-- 
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_36A2B103-48B1-48ED-B4B8-FF72F3034A33-- From nobody Tue Apr 12 07:31:00 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D3B3A1139 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:30:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5YdjGq6uhfmR for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 182563A1131 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Kd7SD5WQdz1pH22 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:30:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1649773852; bh=9aeHHS/pIPuBj4Hlc97ETtp7Pg8c0uEUEm3CIDKEppM=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=l9/NDirgztEDIKwH84yKcnBi7VkxCdFkq7+k/xObuV1lf3WOB3sKMXWZDRDpHVcMm /MHIdPI2Ucd0upcXrmVNy0GIbnoVuc2j8v8BpTNLyMDjK975FBLJVv3GkN/FUMeLSh FtasOZday8JPh2qwx8mZ6hYjbq8U1cV2K4vCNZDs= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.21.218] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Kd7SD2Gw2z1p5rF for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <0d1a64bb-ebe5-95e9-e04e-762d60276603@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 10:30:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: en-US To: "manycouches@ietf.org" References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 - "carbon emissions considerations" X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:30:58 -0000 While it would be nice to think we can redesign our protocols to be more cooperative with the environment, it seems clear that we do not have a clue how to do so. Putting that on the table even as a future seems to be misleading. One of the other SDOs I work with puts an "energy considerations" section in all their documents. There are a few where that may make sense (when they deal with laser power levels, etc). But in general it is a meaningless section serving to pretend to address an issue. Yours, Joel On 4/12/2022 5:56 AM, Jay Daley wrote: ... > Finally, I have a strong suspicion that we are only talking about doing > our part by reducing flying because it’s so visible a contributor not > because it has the most potential.  Like Martin, it seems obvious to me > that the biggest potential is in the protocols themselves, but that of > course is hard to measure, hard to understand how design affects > emissions, and hard to get people to look at.  Having said that, I can > certainly see a point when RFCs have an "Carbon emissions > considerations" section or something broader. > > Jay From nobody Tue Apr 12 07:34:01 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6933A1139 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:33:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.856 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.856 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FI9coorFMIwM for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com (mail-lf1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51E143A1131 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id k5so2442389lfg.9 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:33:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=xF2UBWSZL8jStPJcDewZSZ73Z7fvF4UEYmmWj+LX2bc=; b=O6Uq10IVRyCMLcdDHHxhAZypUzpuEvMg13oOTugk7rucVqx9cjv3J6PSwjbYLnHvG2 uNs2jLknPVZ+2yVwtB7y2eGZPOmgRt0atD98KUdusTWPIEm/9W4CNB3JbUdxNMtAdXxb AYNgJiz7MTbymovA20PDTPrZ1W3GXm5Cs6rJljPLgbW2MNpiyGvgIpLDoNDOFOqHgTle oq7qUJhlDCSGB7TyvDWLj/hRAFTikFN67HDxV/q8oR7hM2N36Yi9o/FWdLx/EQfYHqme 9EAPlag0Ep2bd/KswMhy53zuAOdwnLLXUdiaaYFQebFCYWkPMo6qTV8epXEwjpoK/XS0 DUPw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xF2UBWSZL8jStPJcDewZSZ73Z7fvF4UEYmmWj+LX2bc=; b=27Vusk3W6bGrsLmBZ976Ia43TbKJObpuSdMy/aQTk4ED5YZu6oLpTF9HAjh84I5tIW uhkChhRpyiJJ1mMeYV9M3lqp96XiA3tvvr5jWUkuZErlzJt0GhvIdMuts/kOI1oCc6zq W5CzIcX3m7/Pvph2Ha9gMD+NNp2sN4pTmH4RdEv4bppc6ndqea8hii+KoVXCNN1Ksb8M BwtpJHItETZLX2hvNfecDpDvalLFHgqaynsWgA52moEfDyUkqQlZAc6qbMLsrzCP0Dar 1+uKo36NcQcGhKJnfXoXOyrN2dGLYt1gf+jYRmyh0j/cfuvUeyPXXLK6CP77Bam5LCYO Ilaw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532DsUXXayX4YZiBjL4NKoOpcEXnvPEyxMVJWkijyabwzhU5g0Ab NB+zO1Gty2CwEJtUUKhD2HNRAwDsR/rnRiGCrZCefIHi4Vk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzwvN5fhM/PGII3l21nY8OmmH5y7sjDWyNngrJZmZ5ojiELwof/vRFe+shIiLvOXSjpixf4F4XGClAD6be0HyI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:12d6:b0:44a:4a14:a19a with SMTP id p22-20020a05651212d600b0044a4a14a19amr26022403lfg.619.1649774031873; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 07:33:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> <0d1a64bb-ebe5-95e9-e04e-762d60276603@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <0d1a64bb-ebe5-95e9-e04e-762d60276603@joelhalpern.com> Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org From: Behcet Sarikaya Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:33:40 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: "manycouches@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002128d305dc75f34d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 - "carbon emissions considerations" X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:34:00 -0000 --0000000000002128d305dc75f34d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 9:31 AM Joel M. Halpern wrote= : > While it would be nice to think we can redesign our protocols to be more > cooperative with the environment, it seems clear that we do not have a > clue how to do so. Putting that on the table even as a future seems to > be misleading. One of the other SDOs I work with puts an "energy > considerations" section in all their documents. There are a few where > that may make sense (when they deal with laser power levels, etc). But > in general it is a meaningless section serving to pretend to address an > issue. > > +1 Unfortunately Behcet > Yours, > Joel > > On 4/12/2022 5:56 AM, Jay Daley wrote: > ... > > Finally, I have a strong suspicion that we are only talking about doing > > our part by reducing flying because it=E2=80=99s so visible a contribut= or not > > because it has the most potential. Like Martin, it seems obvious to me > > that the biggest potential is in the protocols themselves, but that of > > course is hard to measure, hard to understand how design affects > > emissions, and hard to get people to look at. Having said that, I can > > certainly see a point when RFCs have an "Carbon emissions > > considerations" section or something broader. > > > > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > --0000000000002128d305dc75f34d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Yours,
Joel

On 4/12/2022 5:56 AM, Jay Daley wrote:
...
> Finally, I have a strong suspicion that we are only talking about doin= g
> our part by reducing flying because it=E2=80=99s so visible a contribu= tor not
> because it has the most potential.=C2=A0 Like Martin, it seems obvious= to me
> that the biggest potential is in the protocols themselves, but that of=
> course is hard to measure, hard to understand how design affects
> emissions, and hard to get people to look at.=C2=A0 Having said that, = I can
> certainly see a point when RFCs have an "Carbon emissions
> considerations" section or something broader.
>
> Jay

_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches
--0000000000002128d305dc75f34d-- From nobody Tue Apr 12 08:29:29 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 860653A0923; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 08:29:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Kt8i7hQNOYq; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 08:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 313AA3A07E2; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 08:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::3] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:3]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 23CFTHNJ730400 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 12 Apr 2022 17:29:18 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1649777358; bh=nlTTU3Nz4Duxul+zeP4wO9WUuK8WoTSSNQ0nRVb92oQ=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=wF/xsXPt5VJgq0/cOvukAFImHvgPvRkm6zJITF3GLROz/OrobOSv4HaYkpishqHsA 7RcHL4C6gCYNHs53JQo1O3EmaeNiGAsAzpe/BDETew301AE/hH8bFyciiWx2ZXJW0o A9Ib+umz6vHTrVfpZYC08Oi3sG0bzpjQJJPzH6ZQ= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 17:29:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Jay Daley Cc: Manycouches@ietf.org References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------8s0Sykn1qinyKLRTT0533fFk" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 15:29:27 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------8s0Sykn1qinyKLRTT0533fFk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ar636iKno0aMwXFYNekLETjx"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Jay Daley Cc: Manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> --------------ar636iKno0aMwXFYNekLETjx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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Hi Jay,

Thanks for your message.=C2=A0 Please see below.

On 12.04.22 11:56, Jay Daley wrote:
Hi Eliot

The major point about offsetting, which I think we agree about, is that offsetting is an "after the fact" action, not a preventative measure. =C2=A0I understand that some will say= "what=E2=80=99s the harm in meeting X times, if we offset all the= emissions" but, without commenting on the rights and wrongs of that, the response to that should not be to attack offsetting as a concept. =C2=A0Instead, we should be taking the approach that i= t is vital for us to offset all of our emissions, whatever the level of those emissions. =C2=A0In other words whether we meet three ti= mes a year or once a year, we should be offsetting those emissions.

I 100% agree.=C2=A0 And I further agree that we MUST meet.=C2=A0 I= opine that we should meet in person LESS but when we do meet, we SHOULD offset our impact.=C2=A0 What we SHOULDN'T do is think of offsets a= s a pure substitute.



When it comes to choosing the offsetting mechanism(s), the plan I outlined at shmoo was to bring in experts to hold some open sessions where they explain the various methods and help us make an informed choice. =C2=A0As som= eone in shmoo pointed out, one of the largest aggregate emitters of carbon are kerosene lamps and schemes aimed at replacing those are direct offset schemes, not a carbon credit market.

Good to know.




- productivity at in-person meetings is, on average= , much higher than remote meetings,. =C2=A0Sure, we can=E2=80=99t q= uantify this and we don=E2=80=99t have the other links in the chain to measure= if that increase in productivity leads to a reduction in effort elsewhere.

- the ability of people to come to in-person meetings depends very much on where the meeting is held. =C2=A0If= we drop down to one meeting per year then we will rotate through every region over a three year cycle and for many people that will mean they can only meet in person once every three years.=C2= =A0

Neither of those are meant to be "that=E2=80=99s wh= y we should continue to meet 3x a year" arguments, just points to consider in the overall debate.

As I wrote, I didn't provide a specific recommendation.=C2=A0 That= 's because I could see this working in quite a number of ways forward, and I'd like to see shmoo explore them.=C2=A0 A few possibilities include the following:

  • Mandatory virtual interim meetings at a certain tempo
  • Mandatory in-person interim meetings
  • Raising the requirements for working groups to meet in person, including at the plenary meetings.
    • Required controversy
    • Virtual meetings held
  • A cap on the number of in person meetings for working groups.

These are just a few possibilities, and it is by no means an exhaustive list.

I realize figuring our way forward here would wreak havoc with our conference planning, and with the lives of the people who provide us an excellent experience, but at least to me, the risks of not acting are too high.

Eliot
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17+gRh691zMkuxRqcbMftRW+cwzMkoiWZJ5kJq73OTYHWupn20Vfy10J/LBUnwrMiZXVpEeVqmSy M+X6hNDDLjWlr3cqk3frdcWoYcjUQsWL4AXpx/4cq0McuxMFGjf42bOWQVmI5M6AJ3oUOWFrFFzP z6WYgwo9JOCPB9ool3luJLCfF5wUFM9KUNjRK02YELnqOCUzre9tHbpJy9ESRjb1Csx3lly7ozyk 8/X1ni0ODVaBBXHkD9pNUS0MuC8QnjZYAKWoA+ukCA== =6prM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------8s0Sykn1qinyKLRTT0533fFk-- From nobody Tue Apr 12 08:51:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8AB93A0DD3 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 08:51:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, 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b=EYOMOnKddjE6oSSrfn+/mhqqOBP625x2Z1DhpUSKbJQ4cY8oA2GuRvz8JO9BWS+S5 1CrEMMe6OJOSpY5W5Cvb5eEAgWL2ea48r57XCb91yka7IlDW90RuFMkX6atgUvxEio AOcRXopAjeMb6pGwCy4Tx5OUIgYXxuPLrlfAE5dk= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.21.218] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Kd9Dn2gcQz1nsnZ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 08:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1b35079b-a744-9565-831b-e8118c33b478@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 11:51:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear Cc: Manycouches@ietf.org References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 - virtual interim meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 15:51:11 -0000 Trimmed, to comment on one possibility raised by Eliot. Joel On 4/12/2022 11:29 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: ... > * Mandatory virtual interim meetings at a certain tempo ... Actually, I would prefer fewer virtual per-WG interim meetingss. As a person who participates in a lot of IETF working groups, and also in other SDOs, regular virtual interim meetings are a pain. Regular virtual interim meetings in the sweet spot that people like for international calls makes everything collide. Having interims when there is actually a need for discussion on a specific topic makes good sense. But interim meetings at a "certain tempo". Please, no. 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Halpern" CC: "manycouches@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 - "carbon emissions considerations" Thread-Index: AQHYTnnyhLzhmevtTEWM2f/F+lsj5qzscRYA Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 16:04:43 +0000 Message-ID: <2A1E0453-90C4-4F22-B5F5-81CB856E5482@juniper.net> References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> <0d1a64bb-ebe5-95e9-e04e-762d60276603@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <0d1a64bb-ebe5-95e9-e04e-762d60276603@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.80.82.1.1) x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3e522e06-a114-4b1e-01ce-08da1c9e2875 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BLAPR05MB7266:EE_ x-ms-exchange-atpmessageproperties: SA|SL x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:44:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: From: Daniel Migault Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:43:53 -0400 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: Jay Daley , Manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cf481805dc77c462" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 16:44:13 -0000 --000000000000cf481805dc77c462 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, We are mostly talking about reducing the number of IETF meetings as three meetings represents on average 12 673 tonnes of CO2 / year. It is measurable. It is a main source of upstream emissions in corporate organizations (see [1]). We have a direct impact on it. It is a direct offset and it shows the path to other organizations. I do agree that we need to focus on the solutions that have the most potential. This is especially where offset can be challenged and the reason to publish a sustainability and corporate responsibility report for the IETF - as did Ericsson recently for example [1]. As a side comment, the evocation of the kerosene lamps - at the shmoo meeting resonated with me a bit with a 1000'nish wealthy people asking 1.3 billion of (poor) people to replace their lamp so we can travel. I would like to clarify that the intent was to illustrate that one needs to focus where it has the most impact. The potential that protocol represents remains to be shown. I am happy that those raising such assertions share their data, publications. So far - as mentioned in the session - my understanding is that most emissions come from the extraction, manufacturing and transport of the products. As a result, I am relatively not optimistic on the impact of a section "Carbon emissions considerations" - but happy to be wrong. Yours, Daniel [1] https://www.ericsson.com/en/about-us/sustainability-and-corporate-responsib= ility/sustainability-report On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 11:29 AM Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Jay, > > Thanks for your message. Please see below. > On 12.04.22 11:56, Jay Daley wrote: > > Hi Eliot > > The major point about offsetting, which I think we agree about, is that > offsetting is an "after the fact" action, not a preventative measure. I > understand that some will say "what=E2=80=99s the harm in meeting X times= , if we > offset all the emissions" but, without commenting on the rights and wrong= s > of that, the response to that should not be to attack offsetting as a > concept. Instead, we should be taking the approach that it is vital for = us > to offset all of our emissions, whatever the level of those emissions. I= n > other words whether we meet three times a year or once a year, we should = be > offsetting those emissions. > > I 100% agree. And I further agree that we MUST meet. I opine that we > should meet in person LESS but when we do meet, we SHOULD offset our > impact. What we SHOULDN'T do is think of offsets as a pure substitute. > > > > When it comes to choosing the offsetting mechanism(s), the plan I outline= d > at shmoo was to bring in experts to hold some open sessions where they > explain the various methods and help us make an informed choice. As > someone in shmoo pointed out, one of the largest aggregate emitters of > carbon are kerosene lamps and schemes aimed at replacing those are direct > offset schemes, not a carbon credit market. > > Good to know. > > > > When we discuss how often to meet in person, I strongly recommend looking > at the data from our post-meeting surveys: > https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/past/ Reading through all of those > shows some clear data points: > > - productivity at in-person meetings is, on average, much higher than > remote meetings,. Sure, we can=E2=80=99t quantify this and we don=E2=80= =99t have the other > links in the chain to measure if that increase in productivity leads to a > reduction in effort elsewhere. > > - the ability of people to come to in-person meetings depends very much o= n > where the meeting is held. If we drop down to one meeting per year then = we > will rotate through every region over a three year cycle and for many > people that will mean they can only meet in person once every three years= . > > > Neither of those are meant to be "that=E2=80=99s why we should continue t= o meet 3x > a year" arguments, just points to consider in the overall debate. > > As I wrote, I didn't provide a specific recommendation. That's because I > could see this working in quite a number of ways forward, and I'd like to > see shmoo explore them. A few possibilities include the following: > > - Mandatory virtual interim meetings at a certain tempo > - Mandatory in-person interim meetings > - Raising the requirements for working groups to meet in person, > including at the plenary meetings. > - Required controversy > - Virtual meetings held > - A cap on the number of in person meetings for working groups. > > These are just a few possibilities, and it is by no means an exhaustive > list. > > I realize figuring our way forward here would wreak havoc with our > conference planning, and with the lives of the people who provide us an > excellent experience, but at least to me, the risks of not acting are too > high. > Eliot > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > --=20 Daniel Migault Ericsson --000000000000cf481805dc77c462 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,=C2=A0

We are mostly talking about reducing= the number of IETF meetings as three meetings represents on average 12 673= tonnes of CO2 / year. It is measurable. It is a main source of upstream em= issions in corporate organizations (see [1]). We have a direct impact on it= . It is a direct offset and it shows the path to other organizations.
<= br>I do agree that we need to focus on the solutions that have the most pot= ential. This is especially where offset can be challenged and the reason to= publish a sustainability and corporate responsibility report for the IETF = - as did Ericsson recently for example [1].

As a side comment, the e= vocation of the kerosene lamps - at the shmoo meeting resonated with me a b= it with a 1000'nish wealthy people asking 1.3 billion of (poor) people = to replace their lamp so we can travel. I would like to clarify that the in= tent was to illustrate that one needs to focus where it has the most impact= .

The potential that protocol represents remains to be shown. I am = happy that those raising such assertions share their data, publications. So= far - as mentioned in the session - my understanding is that most emission= s come from the extraction, manufacturing and transport of the products. As= a result, I am relatively not optimistic on the impact of a section "= Carbon emissions considerations" - but happy to be wrong. =C2=A0 =C2= =A0

Yours,=C2=A0
Daniel
On Tue, A= pr 12, 2022 at 11:29 AM Eliot Lear <lear= @lear.ch> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Hi Jay,

Thanks for your message.=C2=A0 Please see below.

On 12.04.22 11:56, Jay Daley wrote:
=20 Hi Eliot

The major point about offsetting, which I think we agree about, is that offsetting is an "after the fact" ac= tion, not a preventative measure.=C2=A0 I understand that some will say "what=E2=80=99s the harm in meeting X times, if we offset all = the emissions" but, without commenting on the rights and wrongs of that, the response to that should not be to attack offsetting as a concept.=C2=A0 Instead, we should be taking the approach that it = is vital for us to offset all of our emissions, whatever the level of those emissions.=C2=A0 In other words whether we meet three time= s a year or once a year, we should be offsetting those emissions.

I 100% agree.=C2=A0 And I further agree that we MUST meet.=C2=A0 I o= pine that we should meet in person LESS but when we do meet, we SHOULD offset our impact.=C2=A0 What we SHOULDN'T do is think of offsets= as a pure substitute.



When it comes to choosing the offsetting mechanism(s), the plan I outlined at shmoo was to bring in experts to hold some open sessions where they explain the various methods and help us make an informed choice.=C2=A0 As someo= ne in shmoo pointed out, one of the largest aggregate emitters of carbon are kerosene lamps and schemes aimed at replacing those are direct offset schemes, not a carbon credit market.

Good to know.



When we discuss how often to meet in person, I strongly recommend looking at the data from our post-meeting surveys:=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/past/=C2=A0 Reading through all of those shows some clear data points:

- productivity at in-person meetings is, on average, much higher than remote meetings,.=C2=A0 Sure, we can=E2=80=99t qua= ntify this and we don=E2=80=99t have the other links in the chain to measure i= f that increase in productivity leads to a reduction in effort elsewhere.

- the ability of people to come to in-person meetings depends very much on where the meeting is held.=C2=A0 If w= e drop down to one meeting per year then we will rotate through every region over a three year cycle and for many people that will mean they can only meet in person once every three years.=C2= =A0

Neither of those are meant to be "that=E2=80=99s why we should continue to meet 3x a year" arguments, just points to consider in the overall debate.

As I wrote, I didn't provide a specific recommendation.=C2=A0 Th= at's because I could see this working in quite a number of ways forward, and I'd like to see shmoo explore them.=C2=A0 A few possibilities include the following:

  • Mandatory virtual interim meetings at a certain tempo
  • Mandatory in-person interim meetings
  • Raising the requirements for working groups to meet in person, including at the plenary meetings.
    • Required controversy
    • Virtual meetings held
  • A cap on the number of in person meetings for working groups.

These are just a few possibilities, and it is by no means an exhaustive list.

I realize figuring our way forward here would wreak havoc with our conference planning, and with the lives of the people who provide us an excellent experience, but at least to me, the risks of not acting are too high.

Eliot
_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches


--
Daniel Migault
Ericsson
--000000000000cf481805dc77c462-- From nobody Tue Apr 12 09:59:42 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668CA3A0CF9 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:59:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.661 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.661 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NPG2qAUDpail for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D1C83A0CFD for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A70A3549C6C; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 18:59:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 975854EABB1; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 18:59:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 18:59:29 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Eliot Lear Cc: Manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 16:59:41 -0000 Eliot, *: I think it would be prudent to stick to planning for manycouches for the goals of creating better work result for the IETF and a better IETF experience for its participants. And not go beyond. Once we go into broader goals such as "save the planet", we can not escape comparing any ideas we have with other ideas to see how relevant our ideas are in absolute or even relative terms to make decisions about them. For example: Should i save energy by flying less. Sure ? maybe ? But how about looking at overpopulation as the root cause of the presuamble appropriate per-head exhaustion levels and then distinguishing between people who do contribute to overpopulation and those who don't, and give the latter carbon credit. I'd hope we would want to any such discussions at best only over a beer (if at all), but not in scope of any actual work. And as soon as we expand our scope beyond what i proposed, but into the realms that you propose, i think it would brecome very hard to not run into these type of comparison issues to vet any ideas we come up with. And of course even the much simpler considerations such as "most carbon offset mechanisms suck" are way beyond our realm. A lot of those broader issues will already be forced into our limited scope by participants constraints through economic means / company regulations and the like, so we will inherit them, but do not really need to try to have educated opinions about them ourselves (IMHO). Cheers Toerless On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 04:32:30PM +0200, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Some time ago, I wrote the IETF about how I was embarrassed by my kid about > how I was wrecking the future for the next generation by doing so much > flying to meetings.  This turned into a draft called > draft-lear-we-gotta-stop-meeting-like-this.  That draft just asked for us, > primarily the LLC to begin to study the problem.  Jay has worked on that and > looked at carbon offsets, amongst other things, and also sought to quantify > the impact. > > That's all goodness. > > I support reduction of in-person meetings, and for reasons I will outline > below.  I won't propose a specific course of action in this message, but I > think my preference is pretty clear. > > I listened to the recording of the shmoo meeting regarding Daniel's > analysis, and I took from it several points. The points I took away were > these: > > * By some models on average, individuals that attend three meetings > per year create as much emissions as an average German in one year. > * There was a question of whether the recommendation should be from 3 > meetings per year to 3 meetings every two years or 1 meeting per year. > > I want to to express the same skepticism that Ted Lemon expressed about > carbon offsets.  Carbon offsets are market-based approaches that attempt to > hold constant or reduce overall carbon output. These are very useful when > there is no alternative for the emitter.  A good example would be a steel > producer.  Our society needs steel. > > When there are alternatives, the analysis is quite a bit more complex.  By > the people voluntarily buying offsets, it makes a commodity of them, and > creates a price, raising that price as their demand increases.  Those who > have a choice are thus competing with those who don't have a choice, raising > the latter's cost of goods and services, and discouraging those producers > from participating voluntarily – and/or causing those who previously didn't > participate in the market to do so, with the idea of increasing available > inventory.  This invites a certain amount of gaming to take place, > particularly if you as a producer know you are already going to reduce your > emissions, perhaps due to slacking demand.  There are also potential moral > hazards associated with establishing baselines; and additional challenges > when viewing those baselines over time, such as whether they should reduce > annually, thus reducing their availability and further increasing their > price. > > I am *not* saying that carbon offsets should never be considered, but I > don't think they should be considered a simple "Go To".  This ties to the > point several people aligned to, that somehow we oughtn't do our part > because we are a drop in a bucket.  This we may be, but the argument has led > entire countries, such as the United States to not do their part, because > they point to China in particular, and claim a competitive disadvantage.  We > have no such excuse, really, even if we accept it as an excuse, which we > shouldn't. > > As to Martin's point, while I might agree that WebRTC has a beneficial > impact on the environment, when used as an alternative to meet in person, > what we do not know is whether WebRTC would have even been delayed by > holding only one in-person meeting per year. > > This leaves open the question of whether reducing to one meeting per year or > three meetings every two years would make a difference. *Of course* it > would.  You may debate the model that Daniel used, but certainly there is a > cost, and it is not a pittance.  The question is whether we can function as > well as a community if we maintain a lower tempo of in-person meetings.  I > would argue that we have the opportunity to work *better*. IETF meeting time > always comes at a premium, and working groups receive at most 3 hours time.  > While that time may be necessary, it is rarely sufficient.  Interims for any > active group are a requirement.  Virtual interims, in most cases. > > I am not saying that hallway wg meetings are not important. There is value > there, but I don't know how to quantify it. > > In fact all of this is, of course, my opinion; and not backed with a whole > lot of data.  Daniel has provided some.  As a practical matter, I don't > think we have a choice, *but* to reduce our plans for the number of > in-person meetings.  Companies are not going to put up with the previous > level of travel, and many individuals do not feel comfortable traveling.  > Maybe that will change, but as we have seen, hybrid meetings themselves have > their challenges. > > There are other benefits to virtual plenary meetings that are not related to > the environment, but we can debate those in other messages. > > Eliot > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Tue Apr 12 10:04:26 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C27C83A0DAE; 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Tue, 12 Apr 2022 10:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:8801:d00b:e800:4509:28ed:dd7c:3770]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y13-20020a17090a390d00b001c995e0a481sm59157pjb.30.2022.04.12.10.04.21 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Apr 2022 10:04:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker X-Google-Original-From: Fred Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 10:04:20 -0700 Cc: Eliot Lear , manycouches@ietf.org Message-Id: <0241110A-A644-46C1-BA30-5639CAA7FC38@gmail.com> References: <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19E258) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 17:04:25 -0000 On Apr 12, 2022, at 2:57 AM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > ertainly see a point when RFCs have an "Carbon emissions considerations" s= ection or something broader. Speaking for myself, I would want a worked example to consider. How do we me= asure carbon offset of =E2=80=9CAvian Carriers=E2=80=9D, for example?= From nobody Tue Apr 12 12:43:57 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A18BD3A173A for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:43:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0byQSRb_B0UO for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 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<0d87a7ba-b0dd-cffb-9a51-c02fd9ab8fc2@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 20:43:41 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Eliot Lear , Manycouches@ietf.org References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> From: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------p70B0eNYr0xrkMVs0Z0XveET" X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6PR07CA0108.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:6:2c::22) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 96daa05e-7a3e-40ae-1484-08da1cbcc048 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: AS1PR02MB8185:EE_ X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP 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id m20-20020a05600c3b1400b0038ebbbb2ad2sm336889wms.44.2022.04.12.12.56.05 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Stewart Bryant In-Reply-To: <0d87a7ba-b0dd-cffb-9a51-c02fd9ab8fc2@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 20:56:04 +0100 Cc: Eliot Lear , manycouches@ietf.org Message-Id: References: <0d87a7ba-b0dd-cffb-9a51-c02fd9ab8fc2@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19D52) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:56:13 -0000 > > > > (It'd not > be of much use for me, living on a small island off the edge > of Europe as I do, which is a pity as train travel is a lot > more pleasant than flying, but such is Ferry to Wales, then you can get to about half of the planet by train. 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: 4Ra+FTqianpwz5HwOL7Rh/7giAeD1Z6B+//FfzIsK6CAghi1qn6YvL0HbMEUkaai X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR02MB6447 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 20:07:05 -0000 --------------yyJhVovARId06IL19Nk734IQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------FUtISpPzqbkW4qa0tjMXXSxu"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Stewart Bryant Cc: Eliot Lear , manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 References: 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--------------FUtISpPzqbkW4qa0tjMXXSxu-- --------------yyJhVovARId06IL19Nk734IQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmJV29sFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+qY bRAAmS0eQ/j2xNqf/wvcP+4yypTzohWbG+jHjHz8NdLEVlYZgaK6LcOhZsJfOPUz96qsWcRQ0Tlw rabhMSSSpQ5ozG9DyZAvu2lFwfL2E5IoTcwLw1TsXfZkkNzKl4XxXTx0e60+3+DLjuX0nx+OVp6Z a0PzEcObUEMhUgG+UAsWYprfwnoEAC2MFI2hE4g5JCOyEzXgzSSbBfbaTm6x24prxsc6zoj5Bhgj +1oNbUCK4SQrNezk2zJstaXMHf3ZZDW977NOIymc6n5ZolUKsvyb7ojjoaGOQjeblWMRwHKX9ewL 8HLICu7TSjC+rJ3xH3bYc4+ruDgr+dW6SiyrjIeKhH5IAI2IhkX09qdlKmYDp2u1ZOmZWGtD8Bw1 cw2BbJ4R1BYCd4Sf6bHgXt+cRcuoy0g6CSV4fnp0TO3eUSBOiGbkoHyCX5yiqShZDb94JYbdo7Le HaXhoboJ94BjtxD83U2nBBW1zQAwfiAyQ1ixzROSo/Bt0RC6+jtWev/DxbtpORNcCiV1LoXRrx8a w4QpAYVk+Sf+9k6VHlzNkp1S3RRfdL7oqTOWHW6i52NjnbS+VsPgarITwIx28Xu9/JJhHM94bSPm 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(faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D852D3A0603 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 13:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D7EB549C7B; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 22:07:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 2DE464EABB5; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 22:07:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 22:07:24 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Eliot Lear , Manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <0d87a7ba-b0dd-cffb-9a51-c02fd9ab8fc2@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0d87a7ba-b0dd-cffb-9a51-c02fd9ab8fc2@cs.tcd.ie> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 20:07:35 -0000 How do you think it could/should be taken into account ? E.g.: i don't think we even had a chance to take "average air travel time" into account in selecting IETF locations - amongst all the other competing selection criterias. At best it sounds as if we could accept more locations as candidate locations, even if they are not e.g.: mayor hub airport cities. We've done that some times times in the past: Maastricht, Berlin, Hiroshima, Hawaii. So not sure if/how we could go any further. The way i understand it, the overwhelming limiter is the conference hotel with many small meeting rooms and total number of rooms desired. AFAIK, that is what had us exclude a higher variety of locations. For example, Vienna only got back onto our agenda because we knew we wouldn't have that many in-person attendants this time that we would have had to go back to the conference center - without attached hotel, which was not liked by many attendants. Cheers Toerless On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 08:43:41PM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Apologies if this came up at the meeting (I've yet to look > at the recording) but in addition to considering offsets I > think it'd be good if we started to consider ease of access > to meeting locations via train. We could start that by just > describing potential train journeys to the meeting city and > see if it turns into something people start to like. (So no > need to mandate anything or modify meeting criteria RFCs to > get started.) > > It might not be so useful for some cities, but could be for > others, e.g. train to Vienna may have been practical for a > non-trivial number of in-person attendees perhaps. (It'd not > be of much use for me, living on a small island off the edge > of Europe as I do, which is a pity as train travel is a lot > more pleasant than flying, but such is life;-) > > Cheers, > S. > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Tue Apr 12 13:10:15 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 930123A07DD for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 13:10:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham 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<63df418d-6c3f-dce7-9882-5e103bf24700@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <0d87a7ba-b0dd-cffb-9a51-c02fd9ab8fc2@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --------------cMtSsFKGhhxpNxG0wKacJmk2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------sD72y7MMzyN7TcttT4hAXnHi" --------------sD72y7MMzyN7TcttT4hAXnHi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNCk9uIDEyLzA0LzIwMjIgMjE6MDcsIFRvZXJsZXNzIEVja2VydCB3cm90ZToNCj4gSG93 IGRvIHlvdSB0aGluayBpdCBjb3VsZC9zaG91bGQgYmUgdGFrZW4gaW50byBhY2NvdW50ID8N Cg0KSSBkaWRuJ3Qgc2F5LiBJIG9ubHkgYXNrZWQgdGhhdCB3ZSBzdGFydCB0byBjb25zaWRl ciB0cmFpbg0Kam91cm5leXMgYXMgYSB0aGluZyBhbmQgc2VlIGlmIHRoYXQgZXZvbHZlcyBp bnRvIGEgdGhpbmcNCnBlb3BsZSBsaWtlLg0KDQpTLg0K --------------sD72y7MMzyN7TcttT4hAXnHi Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" 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Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=switch.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7BTlWa_JTB6V for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.switch.ch (mx4.switch.ch [85.235.88.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 385FD3A0CF8 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:34:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=switch.ch; l=1352; s=selector1; t=1649799242; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date: message-id:mime-version; bh=eWFkULKwZqLt8HIbBOX9B0U4GVeE/IBE2KjvGpmx+fo=; b=GbSqti5z8PfnbeJuvLmZwvHqcSvQhT4yx0DaitRteUH+gJwNqohxfJxi TPxjKhwHivrAl/ifHbqhDToqP7kVoTXUBay6z+CAc5yaaFj9WbsaGKUJb Kw/SjthTzBA9apV99pfwWfSvonw//sfPwcnTO4gNCZviQ8k0A8Dtt/R4p Hq4aI8hla4J6uGJmRwgpOxONJJ+epa7niF1c8ppQf+Tx9fQpw2+K2q6e1 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User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (darwin) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 23:33:55 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Originating-IP: [172.16.60.33] X-ClientProxiedBy: SWH-S05-EXC3.swd.switch.ch (172.16.60.14) To SWH-S04-EXC2.swd.switch.ch (172.16.60.12) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 21:34:06 -0000 Stephen Farrell writes: > Apologies if this came up at the meeting (I've yet to look > at the recording) but in addition to considering offsets I > think it'd be good if we started to consider ease of access > to meeting locations via train. We could start that by just > describing potential train journeys to the meeting city and > see if it turns into something people start to like. (So no > need to mandate anything or modify meeting criteria RFCs to > get started.) Yes, I think that would be useful. At least here in Europe, even long train journeys are becoming more convenient (again), but for international travel, the mental transaction costs can still be high due to multiple agencies to deal with/choose between. Some guidance would be useful - and also remind people that this option even exists. > It might not be so useful for some cities, but could be for > others, e.g. train to Vienna may have been practical for a > non-trivial number of in-person attendees perhaps. (It'd not > be of much use for me, living on a small island off the edge > of Europe as I do, which is a pity as train travel is a lot > more pleasant than flying, but such is life;-) Train to Vienna was very practical for me - get on the sleeper train in Zurich around 11PM, arrive in Vienna the next morning before 8AM. -- Simon. 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Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.100.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 - virtual interim meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 21:41:52 -0000 > On Apr 12, 2022, at 8:51 AM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > Trimmed, to comment on one possibility raised by Eliot. > Joel >=20 > On 4/12/2022 11:29 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > ... >> * Mandatory virtual interim meetings at a certain tempo > ... >=20 > Actually, I would prefer fewer virtual per-WG interim meetingss. As = a person who participates in a lot of IETF working groups, and also in = other SDOs, regular virtual interim meetings are a pain. Regular = virtual interim meetings in the sweet spot that people like for = international calls makes everything collide. Having interims when = there is actually a need for discussion on a specific topic makes good = sense. But interim meetings at a "certain tempo". Please, no. >=20 > Yours, > Joel I concur. The point of plenary meetings is, in part, to justify the = travel expense, and the point of meetings at all is to enable people to = talk with each other face to face. Regular face to face interims would = mean that many people would simply not find the expense justified, and = virtual interims prevent the face to face conversations that need to be = had.= From nobody Tue Apr 12 14:48:40 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8B073A0F5C for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:48:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iqf1z0s3LWZa for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com (mail-pf1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D64703A129B for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id z16so235449pfh.3 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:48:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=nA0hVztEiScA1QXZu2bxzW/kSx4ihBicTECMsNsAM/w=; b=XVGi/+56cUvDD4wkOb622I+fTumzcFhpAlRQCE3C8q94THsRzMNMm0qMrfuNKelbLA 2aIsYLsoppOaepBTgrtBzRobCovThw8DULaibQItDYlFFGovBjh+xACvHqB761/N92Q8 TVV+s2hX+qiwric9nqkrjFkeGJABQ+DrcFigqQF4ZjsBfh3/XSw8oXbu6rrPSavCiG5Z pWPc3htHQhvIRcXIVz6iRGXVI7sQtIEYfvwIt9HvytFus1uCH077kQbaF+f/JHCga/SG GVqmX+qkOfzgNYhTHfexnIYWceJ0F4VsioioukoPA3ofcQyGWRPlQXF3OEBDyjBE36TU E3Bg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=nA0hVztEiScA1QXZu2bxzW/kSx4ihBicTECMsNsAM/w=; b=NdCeFKPt5KlXo/khIhc9LouNDCmqETkrTDVXl+aDQHo7Gd0ueZ8uRYx5lf7acxmLXe YtkGw7GQiqlViZF5qHEabQ8PURwYWhNkrEuhABzgcKIfjK1/I5XG5lZnzFscU89JKKWV WnQXvrDSGuzLxd6Gb5EuMI30ZccJTIH/B8yrwH8MoL7a0D6jmb1pyT8yZfGKznyAmH0E I20oBBfC/fklgg0QnqocBWYTYfRAA59QG50M7g9ooeXM1lkVaa1AQlWqzy2V8kv/cHr6 yJkBccWEJ3B81TaiEEelUa9KfadpTLh4mCOd2ZbciHaduSCqYsZ20/kDEPEAxZbAPuVp vFEQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530CAVCpYFbnHbYXYWXvBQAWX/a/WZ59uhsAuN6P/7NlBb2ohMIj Q2vPyKCyUMnlryFLP3ERVHE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxRTy2G1qtbUtxJKtLrdUSxpnykVkuo/xTZUOoh1YHfb26jJEP8fokPe1fE7jsJZs3LKXpd1g== X-Received: by 2002:a63:de45:0:b0:39c:c255:b30 with SMTP id y5-20020a63de45000000b0039cc2550b30mr24792149pgi.82.1649800090638; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:8801:d00b:e800:4918:1888:c69c:9d4f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m1-20020a17090ade0100b001cb3feaddfcsm1201890pjv.2.2022.04.12.14.48.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.100.1\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <63df418d-6c3f-dce7-9882-5e103bf24700@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:48:09 -0700 Cc: Toerless Eckert , Manycouches@ietf.org, Eliot Lear Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <89574460-99D0-46A2-B41D-459CA8E21A5A@gmail.com> References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <0d87a7ba-b0dd-cffb-9a51-c02fd9ab8fc2@cs.tcd.ie> <63df418d-6c3f-dce7-9882-5e103bf24700@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.100.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 21:48:35 -0000 > On Apr 12, 2022, at 1:10 PM, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 > I didn't say. I only asked that we start to consider train > journeys as a thing and see if that evolves into a thing > people like. I concur. Let's start planning IETF meeting in Kansas.= From nobody Tue Apr 12 19:36:38 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD093A19C3 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:36:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GE_Oo5lxK1-z for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1411B3A19BC for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B311838D11; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 22:48:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id cBBfOk5jDN7n; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 22:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [172.30.2.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E837D38CDB; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 22:48:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760B2A7; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 22:36:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Eliot Lear , Manycouches@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 27.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 02:36:36 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been through the thread. I want to quote some key words from Eliot's email. Eliot Lear wrote: > Some time ago, I wrote the IETF about how I was embarrassed by my kid > about how I was wrecking the future for the next generation by doing = so > much FLYING to meetings.=C2=A0 It's not the meetings. It's the FLYING. It's not the just the FLYING to IETF, it is the FLYING to *MEETINGS* (plura= l). I know that some of you go to a lot of meetings in person. Except for years when I was involved with the nomcom, I travelled to only t= wo IETF meetings per year. I used MBONE a few times, then it stopped working, and then the IETF stopped using it. I used streamed mp3 and jabber until we got meetecho. I put up with crappy "native" JAVAWS apps, but now we have w= ebrtc. The last time I was on an airplane for personal travel (only) was 1996. All my travel since has been for business, and 90% of that travel was IETF = meetings. Key thing here to me is: a) each of us has their own CO2 balance sheet. IETF meetings are a choice, and going to Cancun is another choice. (If someone wants to make this an argument to always meet in Cancun, tha= t's okay with me. Better if someone says that this is an argument to have = our meetings within a half-day train trip for a vacation destination, that's probably better for me) b) there are many trips that can be done by train for a significant number of people. People don't do it for a variety of reasons. There are logistical issues as Stephen and others have said with combining long-haul flights (or Ferries) and trains takes more plan= ning time than most people have. [I think there is a business opportunity here. Unicast= me] But, I have, btw, travelled Dublin to London to Berlin to Schipol, and then long-haul flight home. That involved multiple meetings, and amortizing the long-haul flight over many meetings. There was some hass= le. c) The IETF has led the transition to virtual meetings, and we should continue to do so. We did this before the pandemic. The IETF has brought significant value in CO2 reduction through our standards, and the products that implement them. Should we get some kind of credit or pass for this reason? No. It's too hard to calculate, but also there are hundreds of other entities that also contribute to this. d) I have no use for personal carbon offsets. Airlines should be paying them as a matter of normal business. Short-haul flights are particularly costly, and I have been avoiding them for many years. There are a few people (Joel, Fred) who think that he can't handle more vir= tual interim meetings. I know that they do a lot of IETF work, but I wonder if they are in fact far too over-extended if they can't handle that extra hour= a week. The IETF should probably take at least 2 hours of non-group activity= for each hour of group activity. That ratio may be way too low, and maybe 10:1 = is more accurate. But, I respect that they don't want to do more virtual interim meetings. I do, and I want fewer meetings and fewer conflicts during the plenary week. > I would argue that we have the > opportunity to work *better*. IETF meeting time always comes at a > premium, and working groups receive at most 3 hours time.=C2=A0 I think that more virtual interim meetings, fewer document status slides, would allow for many WGs and design teams to get more actual work done. I want more time for hallway WG meetings, and more virtual interims are the way to get there. I would like Daniel to continue his work; we need to know the cost. We may decide it's worth it. We may decide that there are other options. I wonder about how the CO2 cuts that Ericsson has announced will be equitab= ly done. Will executives continue to pop around the place while others have = all their travel cut? How many remember being forced to stay-over Saturday nights? I think train trips might be faster for many compared to that historic policy. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQFKBAEBCgA0FiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmJWNyoWHG1jcitpZXRm QHNhbmRlbG1hbi5jYQAKCRCAi3D73dDdZS86B/9bhSUGCma8Y/OUBM3Bna4ckuTj pmu8gH54tt6z+TKjhUh8KtnfSLqohgTryt7wjULSRIGmb6Y35P245fhgguUIBtAl /3ezP21Pz/9xWbnG9WxXD0+IltDLwIAHPqetnKU7blCr4RacpkhuRncXX5DHWSks uvM/5cdHWVJH1NqsPKbd4w81JmSvBIbiKaGFwHZmEOiMnZ7vjkA/0OspLMvAq7RK By628zt1uykU+XZwZhy1SynW84WeizdX5ioU0NzkNul8sE5LgoN0TC4EW7WSxuTI EUpGLgTnNNK15Ggd/Q2oamZF1ablp3sLjj7NOuBQ8ZkAZfl796NHLqtbvH62 =YbKB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Apr 12 19:42:25 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC953A19EE for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:42:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.862 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.862 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=b5Wj+tIy; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=MwvWlWWD Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xsJ6Aig-Qy_G for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08D883A19EC for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 91316 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2022 02:42:15 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=164b2.62563887.k2204; bh=5ct9KbNsMPfaIFiRWYcB76verm6QH2qWJ685eTXUlVE=; b=b5Wj+tIyrTZe36t6TFoVEYmwv9vs9AiB+p+5Uts7fonxzYt1gJLOeVxWImGVX1I37B1F4Zp7PKN/3oayammC6eO4lX9Oth/cl8Qkd/lp1TNwYKPHVD58EuzFZ+SXN5A83b1TgBAfhnxUOU5jXB3C5Dpdr/ptyK6HzqecBQ/0lGLGqw4HQZhiwDxQswq5RCUwEhqFb2+lbqlRwJLeWnadE6/WggKehjrr50m1E+yNJ6ScNWSHUwvu5oA0Lo1XwzXgU9AaoKI0eYmGRzrBoN8OuihozzvU27m7dSHoieSJjfbcVVd47VkQqvn3dr+twp0e22xkUJnxQgl6cdSZzUgrMQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=164b2.62563887.k2204; bh=5ct9KbNsMPfaIFiRWYcB76verm6QH2qWJ685eTXUlVE=; b=MwvWlWWDDMDk2TLZj5ThMqkQh/+VLBpShJLT5f9CiOhUeIQPDcXdKYAuuVmsZzS75sxjcEOg3DW8ooEopyeyXqUo29S84yUEr2mhxQEd86OiFDqvVw76qnYn/wixThynoHt05nLALeHOuqmalGe0uHy6Ld62deqTflNOCyV1kccXtVDFtxrd3lZTI+V+QfWQIJsCzDs0Ec20pF7BUGd2NGw7RjlTjjOUYOSAUL84v3nOP261ciSZbtghFdEowAZdoXsDkyovMhL/P5d0P9donbbhai8zqEZHR/TqY2l7ZnxXrnxzbfsTMXIq3dqET5Z6X4xQRxFxZLZ8OYcdxBbY0Q== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.3 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 13 Apr 2022 02:42:14 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 891C43D47DC4; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 22:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: 12 Apr 2022 22:42:14 -0400 Message-Id: <20220413024214.891C43D47DC4@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: manycouches@ietf.org Cc: stewart.bryant@gmail.com In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 02:42:23 -0000 It appears that Stewart Bryant said: >> >> >> >> (It'd not >> be of much use for me, living on a small island off the edge >> of Europe as I do, which is a pity as train travel is a lot >> more pleasant than flying, but such is > >Ferry to Wales, then you can get to about half of the planet by train. I look forward to meeting in Ulaanbaatar. R's, John From nobody Tue Apr 12 19:54:07 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65F7C3A1A6B for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:54:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VXQ0Ote0mU2z for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1030.google.com (mail-pj1-x1030.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1030]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97DA13A1A66 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1030.google.com with SMTP id s14-20020a17090a880e00b001caaf6d3dd1so4918691pjn.3 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:54:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:in-reply-to :date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=h3sIAdGR9QyDwmcviHKuFNhTZAA/WYM02mzEeHTf8xQ=; b=JRO64EJVKltYEt/zhA3tkVctNogVaIj0xYcryvCwa+E3Qe90fQhuhulCw6swM1cqO7 vWx5Mfe9MjlTnPa1ISTIbLi4+BcysLAdk6K3RlvQ8hQd+QpTfeIG51LM4ybeIFAxdZEi 0fUmLc9Zwq9BrVKxXk02lcUxkkz9Ce2C1K93BQF6eA+lLvUWUEiAENxf6ReKI8sRGh3Z ZkvwkLSqQ4iF7+Dt/DhAHenVNuvN56FkHbdDew8lIVRZZNHjGcw6J3qxCaOSSeDCVybo MjaV9o3YOZ3VAGwOESg8yWFPj6qDk6f9twvz7qAPrdLcCMY+Pu45QeoK+1zCNyWk+j19 pXgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=h3sIAdGR9QyDwmcviHKuFNhTZAA/WYM02mzEeHTf8xQ=; b=rkoyoQ5lkAtlO8i4D1Kn7vyA93fCoXkad4IPVo9lsSaSCyVs5Y7kTBxwjCfVnC3QHR 6nL+Y+MF5pbLFRbzIYItvI69PO9VaQzfiRxaLMekZHgAQV91pKjjXaeYOLpNPGE/2XHI O+C8I8btI/S6yFR141uHnDStXsmNhh1lmwNPXF9fAinUtLCwUajxzmaHpxztZifybB9l YKcljX7QjTHikxLQtMkb39sILU9zl2qC0DKApfQ3p+3ynPZCbul6DnOL2t/6kEcz24wC YrgeNGVP37PDa5hFkatdCZAd96kFSK4y0RDqRzbUA8JurfJWhER4Mdd37CcklHLqMb35 zjoQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Gphwh82n6NfOIFU8XUUCbOB9v+N25gcqAeZeJ9TNOEumpYavl FtCTCYqD/mtbcBzcoTWminjpfh9mLa0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz+sP7umAS1NlGpobiVGFZ4ybWu1Gtc1EjbobuS9kh5MmMTNGLKs7LUakRZQqFFDT1urx8vaQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3889:b0:1c6:408b:6b0f with SMTP id mu9-20020a17090b388900b001c6408b6b0fmr8214056pjb.43.1649818440520; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:8801:d00b:e800:fd76:25e7:1a6d:8b44]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t186-20020a625fc3000000b0050595843879sm13697774pfb.213.2022.04.12.19.53.59 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:53:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker X-Google-Original-From: Fred Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <54C874B4-E360-4A08-9174-401522ABEDDC@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:53:58 -0700 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , Eliot Lear , manycouches@ietf.org Message-Id: <04EF5496-0820-4941-A7A9-859ABA0B6162@gmail.com> References: <54C874B4-E360-4A08-9174-401522ABEDDC@gmail.com> To: Fred Baker X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19E258) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 - virtual interim meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 02:54:07 -0000 I tend to think that focusing on train travel should be coupled with schedul= ing meetings in the American Midwest, such as Kansas. Sent using a machine that autocorrects in interesting ways... > On Apr 12, 2022, at 2:41 PM, Fred Baker wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >> On Apr 12, 2022, at 8:51 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote:= >>=20 >> Trimmed, to comment on one possibility raised by Eliot. >> Joel >>=20 >> On 4/12/2022 11:29 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> ... >>> * Mandatory virtual interim meetings at a certain tempo >> ... >>=20 >> Actually, I would prefer fewer virtual per-WG interim meetingss. As a p= erson who participates in a lot of IETF working groups, and also in other SD= Os, regular virtual interim meetings are a pain. Regular virtual interim me= etings in the sweet spot that people like for international calls makes ever= ything collide. Having interims when there is actually a need for discussio= n on a specific topic makes good sense. But interim meetings at a "certain t= empo". Please, no. >>=20 >> Yours, >> Joel >=20 > I concur. The point of plenary meetings is, in part, to justify the travel= expense, and the point of meetings at all is to enable people to talk with e= ach other face to face. Regular face to face interims would mean that many p= eople would simply not find the expense justified, and virtual interims prev= ent the face to face conversations that need to be had. From nobody Tue Apr 12 20:17:58 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54F983A1B4E for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 20:17:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j_QFwws3ed4x for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 20:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32A683A1B08 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 20:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1neTVq-000JG1-Ln; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 23:17:46 -0400 Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 23:17:40 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Fred Baker , "Joel M. Halpern" cc: Manycouches@ietf.org, Eliot Lear Message-ID: <4C707D32335FF6451540C6AF@PSB> In-Reply-To: <54C874B4-E360-4A08-9174-401522ABEDDC@gmail.com> References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> <1b35079b-a744-9565-831b-e8118c33b478@joelhalpern.com> <54C874B4-E360-4A08-9174-401522ABEDDC@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 - virtual interim meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 03:17:57 -0000 --On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 14:41 -0700 Fred Baker wrote: > > >> On Apr 12, 2022, at 8:51 AM, Joel M. Halpern >> wrote: >> >> Trimmed, to comment on one possibility raised by Eliot. >> Joel >> >> On 4/12/2022 11:29 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> ... >>> * Mandatory virtual interim meetings at a certain tempo >> ... >> >> Actually, I would prefer fewer virtual per-WG interim >> meetingss. As a person who participates in a lot of IETF >> working groups, and also in other SDOs, regular virtual >> interim meetings are a pain. Regular virtual interim >> meetings in the sweet spot that people like for international >> calls makes everything collide. Having interims when there >> is actually a need for discussion on a specific topic makes >> good sense. But interim meetings at a "certain tempo". >> Please, no. >> >> Yours, >> Joel > > I concur. The point of plenary meetings is, in part, to > justify the travel expense, and the point of meetings at all > is to enable people to talk with each other face to face. > Regular face to face interims would mean that many people > would simply not find the expense justified, and virtual > interims prevent the face to face conversations that need to > be had. To take this a step further, one of the IETF's main strengths lies in the ability of people to look in on and participate in work outside their main area of expertise, activities that often start on a drop-in basis. I think we could continue (or resume) that with fewer meetings a year as long as we renew our strong commitment to doing most of our work on mailing lists and to focus there and on occasional meetings. At least for the WG's I'm following (fewer than years ago, see below), many virtual interims often act as substitutes for that mailing list work, possibly leading to getting more work done but at the price of broad participation (at least sometimes due to the choice of times for those meetings). Except, perhaps, for people with unlimited travel budgets and the ability to spend most of their time on the IETF, f2f interims would likely be even worse, resulting in participants making tradeoffs between traveling to and participating in those interims because the are most involved with (or sponsored for) the WGs holding them and other WGs to which they could be contributing broader perspectives and/or the plenary meetings themselves. I think we could get by with two, or possibly even one, f2f plenary meeting a year without much damage... but only if we recommitted to trying to get as much done as possible on mailing lists, minimized the number of interims (with no f2f ones except under the most unusual or circumstances), and thought carefully about some all-online plenary-type sessions. I think it would also be wise to think carefully about how much work we are taking on and, in particular, how broad the commitment needs to be to spin up a WG. Especially with fewer f2f meetings and more reliance on interims that people need to be really committed to the WG to attend (even online), we could easily see increasing numbers of WG where almost all of the participants share a single point of view on the relevant issues and how they should be addressed. The IETF adds almost no value to such groups other than endorsements of their conclusions. Perhaps things have evolved to the point that people want the IETF to be in that business, but I'm not enthused. In any event, I think we need to consider the possibility that an IETF that needs to rely on fewer traditional in-person meetings -- no matter the mix of online and hybrid ones-- simply cannot sustain the amount and quality of work on which the IETF built its reputation. In addition, if we go in that direction, or even stay with the current "hybrid" model, I'd encourage the IESG to think about reinstating a meeting pattern we dropped many years ago, I believe under pressure from too many WGs. That was to start the meetings of with a Monday morning plenary that summarized important issues for the week and even included reports from each Area about what they were doing and focusing on. HotRFC has taken over a bit of that job, but I suggest is a patch rather than a replacement for an opportunity for the community to get a general understanding of what is being worked on and for individuals to make decisions about how to invest their time (ideally with a less crowded agenda). best, john From nobody Tue Apr 12 20:54:33 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96C2A3A1C98 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 20:54:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass 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SIGNATURE----- --------------IWsBiJONDmpj3GvhsWhkJnjF-- From nobody Tue Apr 12 23:48:23 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB2EE3A1D45 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 23:48:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x2R1br6R91Zs for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 23:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 449F03A1D43 for ; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 23:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPV6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::2] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:2]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 23D6mAMg801115 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Apr 2022 08:48:11 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1649832491; bh=1A2r5qHGkPSg0FKW0KeR4nw6uKLguHhuUHCEfYn3/MI=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:From; b=Im7Gu03gElAUCSOkh/yVK92GiiN2IavGd9/GIZbcCqoPCDKOyBPUldrx4dpGPtgE8 0kyv9HVb80Nbex03VKAAp5yWsUo3xCXNmtvXi4kvO3n39RvigKhy9pozQQu8D5e6cj DNrdF6cCvxFb0ZA6RPidC/aTdPUv8L2BspQV3NCo= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 08:48:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: en-US To: John C Klensin Cc: Manycouches@ietf.org References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> <1b35079b-a744-9565-831b-e8118c33b478@joelhalpern.com> <54C874B4-E360-4A08-9174-401522ABEDDC@gmail.com> <4C707D32335FF6451540C6AF@PSB> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <4C707D32335FF6451540C6AF@PSB> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------0D1y0BcY3g8Vux5UwM0JNcXK" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 - virtual interim meetings X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 06:48:21 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------0D1y0BcY3g8Vux5UwM0JNcXK Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------fJD0F8kKKLMETY5gawxuDlqj"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: John C Klensin Cc: Manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 - virtual interim meetings References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> <1b35079b-a744-9565-831b-e8118c33b478@joelhalpern.com> <54C874B4-E360-4A08-9174-401522ABEDDC@gmail.com> <4C707D32335FF6451540C6AF@PSB> In-Reply-To: <4C707D32335FF6451540C6AF@PSB> --------------fJD0F8kKKLMETY5gawxuDlqj Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------KkWP2oNtO8400oBc8smwe0YZ" 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Hi John,

Your note ties to Mark Nottingham's draft about the scheduling of virtual interims.=C2=A0

I'll just add that "dropping in" is something that could be better facilitated by virtual interims because there are less chances of conflicts.=C2=A0 That's because there are so many simultaneous tracks at an in-person IETF meeting.

I'm not sure I agree with you about not holding in-person interims.=C2=A0 I firmly believe that the RFC Editor Future Develop= ment Program could have accomplished its work about a year sooner than we did, had we been able to meet in person.=C2=A0 Of course, the ch= airs couldn't even begin to contemplate such a meeting due to COVID.=C2=A0= But I will note that almost all of our progress was made in high bandwidth settings, and conversely almost none of the serious issues we faced got resolved over email.=C2=A0 Now, tha= t may have been the nature of the work.=C2=A0 The program wasn't a working group, and in particular it largely didn't address technical problems.

Still, what I take from that is that once one has a good starting point, there are phases of work within a working group where high bandwidth access is very important, and one hour every three months isn't going to cut it.=C2=A0 If there are substantial amount= s of issues to be discussed, then a two or even three day face to face seems appropriate.=C2=A0 I think the httpbis working group demonstr= ated that with great success.

Was there a mono-culture in that working group? Maybe so, but the alternative would be that not only would http3 not be on the way, but likely http2 would still be in process.=C2=A0 And we certainly didn't have a mono-culture in the RFC program, and we had plenty of interims.

I'm not saying that every dispute can be resolved just due to an in person meeting.=C2=A0 Sometimes, other factors come into play.=C2= =A0 For those who particpated in webrtc, it seemed that an evolution of thought and process was required.=C2=A0 I think I saw some of that = in the RFC program as well.

Eliot

On 13.04.22 05:17, John C Klensin wrote:

--On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 14:41 -0700 Fred Baker
<fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:


On Apr 12, 2022, at 8:51=
 AM, Joel M. Halpern
&l=
t;jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:

Trimmed, to comment on one possibility raised by Eliot.
Joel

On 4/12/2022 11:29 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
=2E..
 * Mandatory virtual i=
nterim meetings at a certain tempo
...

Actually, I would prefer fewer virtual per-WG interim
meetingss.   As a person who participates in a lot of IETF
working groups, and also in other SDOs, regular virtual
interim meetings are a pain.  Regular virtual interim
meetings in the sweet spot that people like for international
calls makes everything collide.  Having interims when there
is actually a need for discussion on a specific topic makes
good sense.  But interim meetings at a "certain tempo".
Please, no.

Yours,
Joel
I concur. The point of plenary meetings is, in part, to
justify the travel expense, and the point of meetings at all
is to enable people to talk with each other face to face.
Regular face to face interims would mean that many people
would simply not find the expense justified, and virtual
interims prevent the face to face conversations that need to
be had.
To take this a step further, one of the IETF's main strengths
lies in the ability of people to look in on and participate in
work outside their main area of expertise, activities that often
start on a drop-in basis.  I think we could continue (or resume)
that with fewer meetings a year as long as we renew our strong
commitment to doing most of our work on mailing lists and to
focus there and on occasional meetings.  At least for the WG's
I'm following (fewer than years ago, see below), many virtual
interims often act as substitutes for that mailing list work,
possibly leading to getting more work done but at the price of
broad participation (at least sometimes due to the choice of
times for those meetings).  Except, perhaps, for people with
unlimited travel budgets and the ability to spend most of their
time on the IETF, f2f interims would likely be even worse,
resulting in participants making tradeoffs between traveling to
and participating in those interims because the are most
involved with (or sponsored for) the WGs holding them and other
WGs to which they could be contributing broader perspectives
and/or the plenary meetings themselves.

I think we could get by with two, or possibly even one, f2f
plenary meeting a year without much damage... but only if we
recommitted to trying to get as much done as possible on mailing
lists, minimized the number of interims (with no f2f ones except
under the most unusual or circumstances), and thought carefully
about some all-online plenary-type sessions.=20

I think it would also be wise to think carefully about how much
work we are taking on and, in particular, how broad the
commitment needs to be to spin up a WG.  Especially with fewer
f2f meetings and more reliance on interims that people need to
be really committed to the WG to attend (even online), we could
easily see increasing numbers of WG where almost all of the
participants share a single point of view on the relevant issues
and how they should be addressed.  The IETF adds almost no value
to such groups other than endorsements of their conclusions.
Perhaps things have evolved to the point that people want the
IETF to be in that business, but I'm not enthused.  In any
event, I think we need to consider the possibility that an IETF
that needs to rely on fewer traditional in-person meetings -- no
matter the mix of online and hybrid ones--   simply cannot
sustain the amount and quality of work on which the IETF built
its reputation.

In addition, if we go in that direction, or even stay with the
current "hybrid" model, I'd encourage the IESG to think about
reinstating a meeting pattern we dropped many years ago, I
believe under pressure from too many WGs.  That was to start the
meetings of with a Monday morning plenary that summarized
important issues for the week and even included reports from
each Area about what they were doing and focusing on.   HotRFC
has taken over a bit of that job, but I suggest is a patch
rather than a replacement for an opportunity for the community
to get a general understanding of what is being worked on and
for individuals to make decisions about how to invest their time
(ideally with a less crowded agenda).

best,
   john



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URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hJ2R16VJX6lB; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 01:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (mx4.open-xchange.com [87.191.57.184]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CA1B3A123F; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 01:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imap.open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2F8616A0D3; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 10:27:45 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1649838465; bh=l9tiRv0dok2F1oAukPJNpMN11F1oI4697uVABrKwubk=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=yVew+zrhBsAxlOqw78Y4jz29zsYVNpS+hVp4fpeMYZH06omlZ0+EKwx6kZM3oSKTo eXHwy1j3yquTWm4i+NVKWoHtJ6uTVGYVE6LevOFlCucNuP8MPKKPTkH/BHx+fnVr7h DgiT3qsXDjHhT2zQE5UkaNWH1wA9bk/ydlfZ/vBxdF7dPOEgEmx0tm2MvFzpJUiwUM 1QxYg76Wi0d5auq+UW0s5KrW+fInhAgdFwjcne6izzu7iw9flzQlaqvoCyPGMjHZ7P XNPicgCqjJ7MwrijcZhjzBiYRb8K6F2zPH2opV11e5UIKTYjGotu0QfiQINWySNNu2 +NgbyCasmgy+w== Received: from appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com ([10.20.28.81]) by imap.open-xchange.com with ESMTPSA id 4NnTCYGJVmJ/HQAA3c6Kzw (envelope-from ); Wed, 13 Apr 2022 10:27:45 +0200 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 10:27:45 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Jay Daley , Eliot Lear Cc: Manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <355979943.1061.1649838465078@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1059_574996549.1649838465063" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.6-Rev12 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 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dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 08:28:02 -0000 ------=_Part_1059_574996549.1649838465063 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Il 12/04/2022 11:56 Jay Daley ha scritto: >=20 >=20 >=20 > Hi Eliot >=20 >=20 > The major point about offsetting, which I think we agree about, is that o= ffsetting is an "after the fact" action, not a preventative measure. I und= erstand that some will say "what=E2=80=99s the harm in meeting X times, if = we offset all the emissions" but, without commenting on the rights and wron= gs of that, the response to that should not be to attack offsetting as a co= ncept. Instead, we should be taking the approach that it is vital for us t= o offset all of our emissions, whatever the level of those emissions. In o= ther words whether we meet three times a year or once a year, we should be = offsetting those emissions. I am all in favour of donations from the IETF t= o any carbon offsetting mechanism. I just want to add that there is a globa= l regulatory trend to include additional carbon taxes into the cost of air = travel, so it may be that our emissions are offset already when we buy the = ticket. Still, the more the better. Also, in philosophical terms, I do take issue with Daniel's comment during = the presentation that travelling in person is "20th century" and travelling= virtually is "21st century". Actually, when people are asked what progress= would be to them, many mention the ability of being able to travel more, a= nd more freely, and know other cultures better. One would hope that by seei= ng more of the world the IETFers would generally be more open minded, at le= ast if they manage to get out of the hotel every now and then :) And I do f= eel sometimes that this community is narrow minded and scarcely diverse. Moreover, there are parts of the world where foreign tourism is an essentia= l part of the local wealth - basically what allows people to get out of pov= erty. This does not apply to meetings in North America or Europe (except So= uth-Eastern Europe), but Bangkok, for example, would be one of those cases.= Under this viewpoint, if we are so concerned about the world, we may want = to prefer meeting in places where the money we bring, even if at the price = of travel, creates good socioeconomic value. Though they are also likely to= be the ones that involve longer travel in average... But the point is that= pollution is not the only social impact of business travel and not the onl= y factor to consider to make "ethically good" choices. >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > I listened to the recording of the shmoo meeting regarding Daniel's ana= lysis, and I took from it several points. The points I took away were these= : > >=20 > > * By some models on average, individuals that attend three meetings per= year create as much emissions as an average German in one year. >=20 > This is a one-size-fits-all approach which is unfair and rather dangerous= . Many of us, including myself, have made choices to reduce their environme= ntal footprint long ago. Others maybe move all the time in a 2.5-ton SUV an= d will already have polluted like three or four Germans without even buying= the ticket. All in all, it is the individual who has to be responsible and= choose where to allocate their environmental impact and how to minimize it= . If we proceed with the hybrid model, people and companies that feel like = they have to stop travelling will be able to do so, while others who choose= to allocate their CO2 to travel will also be able to do so, and everybody = will be happy. The problems start when some people want to push their own p= ersonal assessments onto the entire organization. >=20 >=20 >=20 > This is an important issue and I share the objective, though my personal = assessment is that we cannot reduce the meetings in person at least for the= next 2-3 years, while the social damage of the pandemy is being recovered.= I am just worried that, like other non-technical topics in the recent past= , this issue will prompt a divisive discussion in which people who disagree= with the trend will be singled out and questioned at a moral level. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- vb. ------=_Part_1059_574996549.1649838465063 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20

Il 12/04/2022 11:56 Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> ha scritto= :


Hi Eliot

The major point about offsetting, which I think we agree about, is that= offsetting is an "after the fact" action, not a preventative measure. &nbs= p;I understand that some will say "what=E2=80=99s the harm in meeting X tim= es, if we offset all the emissions" but, without commenting on the rights a= nd wrongs of that, the response to that should not be to attack offsetting = as a concept.  Instead, we should be taking the approach that it is vi= tal for us to offset all of our emissions, whatever the level of those emis= sions.  In other words whether we meet three times a year or once a ye= ar, we should be offsetting those emissions.
I am all in favour of donations from the IETF to any carbon offsetting m= echanism. I just want to add that there is a global regulatory trend to inc= lude additional carbon taxes into the cost of air travel, so it may be that= our emissions are offset already when we buy the ticket. Still, the more t= he better.

Also, in philosophical terms, I do take issue with Daniel's comment duri= ng the presentation that travelling in person is "20th century" and travell= ing virtually is "21st century". Actually, when people are asked what progr= ess would be to them, many mention the ability of being able to travel more= , and more freely, and know other cultures better. One would hope that by s= eeing more of the world the IETFers would generally be more open minded, at= least if they manage to get out of the hotel every now and then :) And I d= o feel sometimes that this community is narrow minded and scarcely diverse.

Moreover, there are parts of the world where foreign tourism is an essen= tial part of the local wealth - basically what allows people to get out of = poverty. This does not apply to meetings in North America or Europe (except= South-Eastern Europe), but Bangkok, for example, would be one of those cas= es. Under this viewpoint, if we are so concerned about the world, we may wa= nt to prefer meeting in places where the money we bring, even if at the pri= ce of travel, creates good socioeconomic value. Though they are also likely= to be the ones that involve longer travel in average... But the point is t= hat pollution is not the only social impact of business travel and not the = only factor to consider to make "ethically good" choices.

I listened to the recording of the shmoo meeting r= egarding Daniel's analysis, and I took from it several points. The points I= took away were these:

  • By some models on average, individuals that atte= nd three meetings per year create as much emissions as an average German in= one year.
This is a one-size-fits-all approach which is unfair and rather dangerou= s. Many of us, including myself, have made choices to reduce their environm= ental footprint long ago. Others maybe move all the time in a 2.5-ton SUV a= nd will already have polluted like three or four Germans without even buyin= g the ticket. All in all, it is the individual who has to be responsible an= d choose where to allocate their environmental impact and how to minimize i= t. If we proceed with the hybrid model, people and companies that feel like= they have to stop travelling will be able to do so, while others who choos= e to allocate their CO2 to travel will also be able to do so, and everybody= will be happy. The problems start when some people want to push their own = personal assessments onto the entire organization.

This is an important issue and I share the objective, though my personal= assessment is that we cannot reduce the meetings in person at least for th= e next 2-3 years, while the social damage of the pandemy is being recovered= . I am just worried that, like other non-technical topics in the recent pas= t, this issue will prompt a divisive discussion in which people who disagre= e with the trend will be singled out and questioned at a moral level.

-- vb.
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Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Vittorio Bertola , Jay Daley Cc: Manycouches@ietf.org References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> <355979943.1061.1649838465078@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <355979943.1061.1649838465078@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------b9gIjFRNGR1A6bGvi2Du17ek" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 08:46:06 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------b9gIjFRNGR1A6bGvi2Du17ek Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------Maznm1Jom7VJkh0ki3g21I2e"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Vittorio Bertola , Jay Daley Cc: Manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <411ca062-c617-1b14-1313-159020b55c9d@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> <355979943.1061.1649838465078@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <355979943.1061.1649838465078@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> --------------Maznm1Jom7VJkh0ki3g21I2e Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------sOPVB6YhkXaSqmHAGfhrOSoj" --------------sOPVB6YhkXaSqmHAGfhrOSoj Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------cKMGTZMRqpzCFm9JiUWRGarb" --------------cKMGTZMRqpzCFm9JiUWRGarb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgVml0dG9yaW8sDQoNCkp1c3Qgb24gdGhpcyBwb2ludDoNCg0KT24gMTMuMDQuMjIgMTA6 MjcsIFZpdHRvcmlvIEJlcnRvbGEgd3JvdGU6DQo+Pj4NCj4+PiBJIGxpc3RlbmVkIHRvIHRo ZSByZWNvcmRpbmcgb2YgdGhlIHNobW9vIG1lZXRpbmcgcmVnYXJkaW5nIERhbmllbCdzIA0K Pj4+IGFuYWx5c2lzLCBhbmQgSSB0b29rIGZyb20gaXQgc2V2ZXJhbCBwb2ludHMuIFRoZSBw b2ludHMgSSB0b29rIGF3YXkgDQo+Pj4gd2VyZSB0aGVzZToNCj4+Pg0KPj4+ICAgKiBCeSBz b21lIG1vZGVscyBvbiBhdmVyYWdlLCBpbmRpdmlkdWFscyB0aGF0IGF0dGVuZCB0aHJlZQ0K Pj4+ICAgICBtZWV0aW5ncyBwZXIgeWVhciBjcmVhdGUgYXMgbXVjaCBlbWlzc2lvbnMgYXMg YW4gYXZlcmFnZSBHZXJtYW4NCj4+PiAgICAgaW4gb25lIHllYXIuDQo+Pj4NCj4gVGhpcyBp cyBhIG9uZS1zaXplLWZpdHMtYWxsIGFwcHJvYWNoIHdoaWNoIGlzIHVuZmFpciBhbmQgcmF0 aGVyIA0KPiBkYW5nZXJvdXMuIE1hbnkgb2YgdXMsIGluY2x1ZGluZyBteXNlbGYsIGhhdmUg bWFkZSBjaG9pY2VzIHRvIHJlZHVjZSANCj4gdGhlaXIgZW52aXJvbm1lbnRhbCBmb290cHJp bnQgbG9uZyBhZ28uDQoNCldlbGwgZ29vZCBmb3IgeW91LCBhbmQgZm9yIG91ciBjaGlsZHJl bi7CoCBIb3dldmVyLCB0aGF0IGJ1bGxldCBpcyBhIA0KcHJlZGljYXRlIHdpdGggdGhlIHBy ZW1pc2UgYmVpbmcgYSBjb25zdW1wdGlvbiBtb2RlbC4gV2hpbGUgeW91IGNhbiANCmFncmVl IG9yIGRpc2FncmVlIHdpdGggdGhlIG1vZGVsIChzaG93IHlvdXIgd29yayBpZiB5b3UgZG8p LCBpZiB0aGUgDQpwcmVtaXNlIGlzIHRydWUgdGhlbiB0aGUgcHJlZGljYXRlIGhvbGRzLsKg IFRvIHB1dCB0aGlzIGFub3RoZXIgd2F5LCBqdXN0IA0KYmVjYXVzZSBhIHBvbGx1dGVyIGRl Y2lkZXMgdG8gcG9sbHV0ZSBqdXN0IGEgbGl0dGxlIGxlc3MsIGRvZXNuJ3QgbWVhbiANCnRo YXQgcGVyc29uJ3MgcG9sbHV0aW9uIGhhcyBsb3dlcmVkIHRvIGFuIGFjY2VwdGFibGUgbGV2 ZWwuDQoNCkkgd2lsbCBlbGFib3JhdGUgdGhhdCBidWxsZXQgaW4gb25lIHdheSwgaG93ZXZl cjogdGhlIGF2ZXJhZ2UgaW4gdGhhdCANCm1vZGVsIGxpa2VseSBtZWFucyB0aGF0IGVhY2gg R2VybWFuIGluIHRoYXQgY2FzZSBpcyBjaGFyZ2VkIHdpdGggDQplbWlzc2lvbnMgZnJvbSBH ZXJtYW4gaW5kdXN0cnkuwqAgQW4gaW5kaXZpZHVhbCBHZXJtYW4gbWF5IG5vdCBiZSBhYmxl IHRvIA0KcmVkdWNlIHRoZWlyIGVtaXNzaW9ucy7CoCBJJ20gc3VyZSBEYW5pZWwncyBwb2lu dCB3YXMgdG8gYnkgbm8gbWVhbnMgDQpjYXN0aWdhdGUgR2VybWFucyBvciBhbnkgb3RoZXIg bmF0aW9uYWxpdHkgYnV0IHNpbXBseSB0byBzaGVkIGxpZ2h0IG9uIA0KKm91ciogaW1wYWN0 IHRvIHRoZSBlbnZpcm9ubWVudCBpbiByZWxhaW9uIHRvIHdoYXQgKndlICpjYW4gZG8gdG8g bWFrZSANCnRoaW5ncyBiZXR0ZXIuDQoNCkVsaW90DQoNCg== --------------cKMGTZMRqpzCFm9JiUWRGarb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Vittorio,

Just on this point:

On 13.04.22 10:27, Vittorio Bertola wrote:

I listened to the recording of the shmoo meeting regarding Daniel's analysis, and I took from it several points. The points I took away were these:

  • By some models on average, individuals that attend three meetings per year create as much emissions as an average German in one year.
This is a one-size-fits-all approach which is unfair and rather dangerous. Many of us, including myself, have made choices to reduce their environmental footprint long ago.

Well good for you, and for our children.=C2=A0 However, that bulle= t is a predicate with the premise being a consumption model. While you can agree or disagree with the model (show your work if you do), if the premise is true then the predicate holds.=C2=A0 To put this another way, just because a polluter decides to pollute just a little less, doesn't mean that person's pollution has lowered to an acceptable level.

I will elaborate that bullet in one way, however: the average in that model likely means that each German in that case is charged with emissions from German industry.=C2=A0 An individual German may= not be able to reduce their emissions.=C2=A0 I'm sure Daniel's point wa= s to by no means castigate Germans or any other nationality but simply to shed light on our impact to the environment in relaion to what we can do to make things better.

Eliot

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SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3LJIdCm2MxOq for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 05:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95BCF3A1AB6 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 05:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 23DCmcT1000983 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 14:48:38 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 36D39205CE0 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 14:48:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CFF7205CB8 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 14:48:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.32.130] (is245935.intra.cea.fr [10.8.32.130]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 23DCmbbL014298 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 14:48:38 +0200 Message-ID: <627a1d5e-69cb-8c9d-8d9e-8d8e7db20286@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 14:48:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> <0d1a64bb-ebe5-95e9-e04e-762d60276603@joelhalpern.com> <2A1E0453-90C4-4F22-B5F5-81CB856E5482@juniper.net> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <2A1E0453-90C4-4F22-B5F5-81CB856E5482@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 - "carbon emissions considerations" X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:48:45 -0000 Le 12/04/2022 à 18:04, John Scudder a écrit : > To date, efforts I’ve seen that have the explicit goal of “we’re > going to minimize carbon impact of ” run up > against the fact that the industry has long had financial incentives > to minimize power consumption and heat removal requirements, because > those represent significant costs for anyone doing computing at > scale. > > Never say never, but I’m not expecting to find any low-hanging fruit > that hasn’t been harvested already. This is the low hanging fruit: an Energy Considerations section in RFCs telling that the protocol is energivore or not (it eats a lot of electrical energy, or not). The other low hanging fruit: report at IETF plenary how many carbon emissions were generated by the plane, bus, train, car or walk travels to that IETF meeting. These numbers are available in many(?) travel plans at the air companies. Alex > > —John > >> On Apr 12, 2022, at 10:30 AM, Joel M. Halpern >> wrote: >> >> While it would be nice to think we can redesign our protocols to be >> more cooperative with the environment, it seems clear that we do >> not have a clue how to do so. Putting that on the table even as a >> future seems to be misleading. One of the other SDOs I work with >> puts an "energy considerations" section in all their documents. >> There are a few where that may make sense (when they deal with >> laser power levels, etc). But in general it is a meaningless >> section serving to pretend to address an issue. >> >> Yours, Joel >> >> On 4/12/2022 5:56 AM, Jay Daley wrote: ... >>> Finally, I have a strong suspicion that we are only talking about >>> doing our part by reducing flying because it’s so visible a >>> contributor not because it has the most potential. Like Martin, >>> it seems obvious to me that the biggest potential is in the >>> protocols themselves, but that of course is hard to measure, hard >>> to understand how design affects emissions, and hard to get >>> people to look at. Having said that, I can certainly see a point >>> when RFCs have an "Carbon emissions considerations" section or >>> something broader. >>> >>> Jay >> > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Wed Apr 13 06:01:59 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596783A1B6C for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 06:01:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.658 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.658 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YU_9-Y5RiQR5 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 06:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FAB13A1B69 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 06:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 23DD1njZ030907 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 15:01:49 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id C5CFE205DB7 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 15:01:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC2702021C0 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 15:01:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.32.130] (is245935.intra.cea.fr [10.8.32.130]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 23DD1nv3024114 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 15:01:49 +0200 Message-ID: <522eef29-4ebe-44be-7bb8-2b5bf977cb9f@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 15:01:49 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 - carbon emissions X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 13:01:57 -0000 I agree and thank you for the numbers. Le 12/04/2022 à 18:43, Daniel Migault a écrit : > Hi, > > We are mostly talking about reducing the number of IETF meetings as > three meetings represents on average 12 673 tonnes of CO2 / year. 12673 tonnes? I found 1500 tonnes, or roughly 1.500.000 kg CO2, to be needed for 500 IETFers return travelling Paris-NYC for all 3 IETFs a year. Air France calculator https://corporate.airfrance.com/fr/co2/calculateur Alex It is > measurable. It is a main source of upstream emissions in corporate > organizations (see [1]). We have a direct impact on it. It is a direct > offset and it shows the path to other organizations. > > I do agree that we need to focus on the solutions that have the most > potential. This is especially where offset can be challenged and the > reason to publish a sustainability and corporate responsibility report > for the IETF - as did Ericsson recently for example [1]. > > As a side comment, the evocation of the kerosene lamps - at the shmoo > meeting resonated with me a bit with a 1000'nish wealthy people asking > 1.3 billion of (poor) people to replace their lamp so we can travel. I > would like to clarify that the intent was to illustrate that one needs > to focus where it has the most impact. > > The potential that protocol represents remains to be shown. I am happy > that those raising such assertions share their data, publications. So > far - as mentioned in the session - my understanding is that most > emissions come from the extraction, manufacturing and transport of the > products. As a result, I am relatively not optimistic on the impact of a > section "Carbon emissions considerations" - but happy to be wrong. > > Yours, > Daniel > > [1] > https://www.ericsson.com/en/about-us/sustainability-and-corporate-responsibility/sustainability-report > > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 11:29 AM Eliot Lear > wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > Thanks for your message.  Please see below. > > On 12.04.22 11:56, Jay Daley wrote: >> Hi Eliot >> >> The major point about offsetting, which I think we agree about, is >> that offsetting is an "after the fact" action, not a preventative >> measure.  I understand that some will say "what’s the harm in >> meeting X times, if we offset all the emissions" but, without >> commenting on the rights and wrongs of that, the response to that >> should not be to attack offsetting as a concept.  Instead, we >> should be taking the approach that it is vital for us to offset >> all of our emissions, whatever the level of those emissions.  In >> other words whether we meet three times a year or once a year, we >> should be offsetting those emissions. > > I 100% agree.  And I further agree that we MUST meet.  I opine that > we should meet in person LESS but when we do meet, we SHOULD offset > our impact.  What we SHOULDN'T do is think of offsets as a pure > substitute. > > >> >> When it comes to choosing the offsetting mechanism(s), the plan I >> outlined at shmoo was to bring in experts to hold some open >> sessions where they explain the various methods and help us make >> an informed choice.  As someone in shmoo pointed out, one of the >> largest aggregate emitters of carbon are kerosene lamps and >> schemes aimed at replacing those are direct offset schemes, not a >> carbon credit market. >> > Good to know. > > >> >> When we discuss how often to meet in person, I strongly recommend >> looking at the data from our post-meeting surveys: >> https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/past/ >> Reading through all of >> those shows some clear data points: >> >> - productivity at in-person meetings is, on average, much higher >> than remote meetings,.  Sure, we can’t quantify this and we don’t >> have the other links in the chain to measure if that increase in >> productivity leads to a reduction in effort elsewhere. >> >> - the ability of people to come to in-person meetings depends very >> much on where the meeting is held.  If we drop down to one meeting >> per year then we will rotate through every region over a three >> year cycle and for many people that will mean they can only meet >> in person once every three years. >> >> Neither of those are meant to be "that’s why we should continue to >> meet 3x a year" arguments, just points to consider in the overall >> debate. > > As I wrote, I didn't provide a specific recommendation.  That's > because I could see this working in quite a number of ways forward, > and I'd like to see shmoo explore them.  A few possibilities include > the following: > > * Mandatory virtual interim meetings at a certain tempo > * Mandatory in-person interim meetings > * Raising the requirements for working groups to meet in person, > including at the plenary meetings. > o Required controversy > o Virtual meetings held > * A cap on the number of in person meetings for working groups. > > These are just a few possibilities, and it is by no means an > exhaustive list. > > I realize figuring our way forward here would wreak havoc with our > conference planning, and with the lives of the people who provide us > an excellent experience, but at least to me, the risks of not acting > are too high. > > Eliot > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > > > > -- > Daniel Migault > Ericsson > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Wed Apr 13 06:10:12 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E14F3A1C16 for ; 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Wed, 13 Apr 2022 15:10:06 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 18B96205E06 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 15:10:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13081205DDD for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 15:10:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.32.130] (is245935.intra.cea.fr [10.8.32.130]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 23DDA6Y1031257 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 15:10:06 +0200 Message-ID: <99598307-0614-03a6-1f7c-7d403cbce1e5@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 15:10:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <0d87a7ba-b0dd-cffb-9a51-c02fd9ab8fc2@cs.tcd.ie> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 13:10:11 -0000 Le 12/04/2022 à 23:33, Simon Leinen a écrit : > Stephen Farrell writes: >> Apologies if this came up at the meeting (I've yet to look at the >> recording) but in addition to considering offsets I think it'd be >> good if we started to consider ease of access to meeting locations >> via train. We could start that by just describing potential train >> journeys to the meeting city and see if it turns into something >> people start to like. (So no need to mandate anything or modify >> meeting criteria RFCs to get started.) > > Yes, I think that would be useful. At least here in Europe, even > long train journeys are becoming more convenient (again), but for > international travel, the mental transaction costs can still be high > due to multiple agencies to deal with/choose between. Some guidance > would be useful - and also remind people that this option even > exists. > >> It might not be so useful for some cities, but could be for others, >> e.g. train to Vienna may have been practical for a non-trivial >> number of in-person attendees perhaps. (It'd not be of much use for >> me, living on a small island off the edge of Europe as I do, which >> is a pity as train travel is a lot more pleasant than flying, but >> such is life;-) > > Train to Vienna was very practical for me - get on the sleeper train > in Zurich around 11PM, arrive in Vienna the next morning before 8AM. Train is a great option. However, one should think of the original poster's main motivation as well. One does not want one's child to reproach anything. In other words one would like to make a world for children worth. In that sense, the train consumes electrical energy which is often produced out of nuclear fuel, which becomes waste, which later on can be a reason for children to reproach to their grand-grand-parents, if not stored well. The train also consumes electrical energy produced out of coal-based, gas and other fuels. The gas, coal and oil are currently a subject for people in one country to reproach to other people in another country. One does not want that reproach either. The train also consumes electricity produced out of hydro, but dams have produced catastrophies too. It might be that what we are looking at with these 'Energy Considerations' sections is more of moral, ethics, and a social acceptance issue at large. 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bh=SCyTJETgXcuUG2GP5+tWtpZO0Y4Jo+U8hCsL3Q7etHA=; b=eFLha08UnTz4tqMG/y3BU3HUXsTBlwb/w+dSEzhKkM1xdXjPN1GZOYhMn8QpJNW+hepO3qGkxYoY5t3G0eI0yZtk1l5IEOlcxVrmxHiwyFctc15z2EoxHXQt1Mw0kE8UVcVCLw4LGETqV9VoFDAzCSYhQ+do+1Aji6QTPbwQS/A= Received: from SJ0PR11MB5053.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:2af::17) by DM6PR11MB2763.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:c6::30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5144.29; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:00:36 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR11MB5053.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a8bb:27ca:9f54:8f2d]) by SJ0PR11MB5053.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a8bb:27ca:9f54:8f2d%7]) with mapi id 15.20.5144.030; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:00:35 +0000 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: Eliot Lear CC: John C Klensin , "manycouches@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 - virtual interim meetings Thread-Index: AQHYToUobEpwlwiLuki9wgY+/owGH6zszyoAgABd3ACAADrLAIAA7i6A Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:00:35 +0000 Message-ID: <25433DB5-D07B-426D-AE29-5E598F4C586B@cisco.com> References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> <1b35079b-a744-9565-831b-e8118c33b478@joelhalpern.com> <54C874B4-E360-4A08-9174-401522ABEDDC@gmail.com> <4C707D32335FF6451540C6AF@PSB> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.80.82.1.1) authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great points Eliot. This thread and my experience in shmoo and in running t= he IETF Hackathons has taught me that in addition to a wide range of opinio= ns, participants in IETF efforts have a wide range of working styles, circu= mstances, and preferences, and that these change over time. Some people wou= ld almost certainly benefit from fewer in person meetings and be more produ= ctive and successful in their IETF efforts. Some would suffer, and others w= ould disengage entirely. Many of us experienced benefits as a result of IETF 113 being held in perso= n. This was true for everyone I encountered in person and for several who w= ere remote. I suspect some remote participants found it more difficult to e= ngage than at previous online only meetings. As an in person participant, I= found it more challenging to follow two sessions in parallel and to partic= ipate in active chat sessions in Meetecho while using my laptop in a meetin= g room than I did when at home with my detached keyboard and two large moni= tors. One of the greatest challenges faced with online only Hackathons was facili= tating the mixing people and ideas and the sharing of knowledge and experti= se that occurs so naturally when we come together in person. It was fantast= ic to add this valuable element back to the Hackathon. Running code created= and improved at each Hackathon is valuable, but so are the exchange of ide= as, the extension of human networks, and the building of new friendships, r= espect, and trust. Meeting in person for large chunks of time made this all= possible again. I believe we should focus on continuing to make remote participation better= , not only for the remote participants but for those engaging with remote p= articipants while they themselves are participating in person. Few people p= articipated in person at IETF 113 than at previous in person meetings. A nu= mber of factors contributed to that. COVID played a part as did reduced tra= vel budgets. The more important it was to someone to participate in person,= the more pain and risk they were willing to endure. By continuing to impro= ve the remote experience, we will shift the tipping point between deciding = to participate in person vs remote. Personal, work, and world circumstances= will change with each meeting. My hope is that rather than explicitly aimi= ng to reduce the number of in person meetings or apply other one-size-fits-= all requirements for all IETF efforts and participants, we simply continue = to do what we can to provide people with better options for when and how th= ey participate. Cheers, Charles On Apr 12, 2022, at 11:48 PM, Eliot Lear = > wrote: Hi John, Your note ties to Mark Nottingham's draft about the scheduling of virtual i= nterims. I'll just add that "dropping in" is something that could be better facilita= ted by virtual interims because there are less chances of conflicts. That'= s because there are so many simultaneous tracks at an in-person IETF meetin= g. I'm not sure I agree with you about not holding in-person interims. I firm= ly believe that the RFC Editor Future Development Program could have accomp= lished its work about a year sooner than we did, had we been able to meet i= n person. Of course, the chairs couldn't even begin to contemplate such a = meeting due to COVID. But I will note that almost all of our progress was = made in high bandwidth settings, and conversely almost none of the serious = issues we faced got resolved over email. Now, that may have been the natur= e of the work. The program wasn't a working group, and in particular it la= rgely didn't address technical problems. Still, what I take from that is that once one has a good starting point, th= ere are phases of work within a working group where high bandwidth access i= s very important, and one hour every three months isn't going to cut it. I= f there are substantial amounts of issues to be discussed, then a two or ev= en three day face to face seems appropriate. I think the httpbis working g= roup demonstrated that with great success. Was there a mono-culture in that working group? Maybe so, but the alternati= ve would be that not only would http3 not be on the way, but likely http2 w= ould still be in process. And we certainly didn't have a mono-culture in t= he RFC program, and we had plenty of interims. I'm not saying that every dispute can be resolved just due to an in person = meeting. Sometimes, other factors come into play. For those who particpat= ed in webrtc, it seemed that an evolution of thought and process was requir= ed. I think I saw some of that in the RFC program as well. Eliot On 13.04.22 05:17, John C Klensin wrote: --On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 14:41 -0700 Fred Baker wrote: On Apr 12, 2022, at 8:51 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: Trimmed, to comment on one possibility raised by Eliot. Joel On 4/12/2022 11:29 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: ... * Mandatory virtual interim meetings at a certain tempo ... Actually, I would prefer fewer virtual per-WG interim meetingss. As a person who participates in a lot of IETF working groups, and also in other SDOs, regular virtual interim meetings are a pain. Regular virtual interim meetings in the sweet spot that people like for international calls makes everything collide. Having interims when there is actually a need for discussion on a specific topic makes good sense. But interim meetings at a "certain tempo". Please, no. Yours, Joel I concur. The point of plenary meetings is, in part, to justify the travel expense, and the point of meetings at all is to enable people to talk with each other face to face. Regular face to face interims would mean that many people would simply not find the expense justified, and virtual interims prevent the face to face conversations that need to be had. To take this a step further, one of the IETF's main strengths lies in the ability of people to look in on and participate in work outside their main area of expertise, activities that often start on a drop-in basis. I think we could continue (or resume) that with fewer meetings a year as long as we renew our strong commitment to doing most of our work on mailing lists and to focus there and on occasional meetings. At least for the WG's I'm following (fewer than years ago, see below), many virtual interims often act as substitutes for that mailing list work, possibly leading to getting more work done but at the price of broad participation (at least sometimes due to the choice of times for those meetings). Except, perhaps, for people with unlimited travel budgets and the ability to spend most of their time on the IETF, f2f interims would likely be even worse, resulting in participants making tradeoffs between traveling to and participating in those interims because the are most involved with (or sponsored for) the WGs holding them and other WGs to which they could be contributing broader perspectives and/or the plenary meetings themselves. I think we could get by with two, or possibly even one, f2f plenary meeting a year without much damage... but only if we recommitted to trying to get as much done as possible on mailing lists, minimized the number of interims (with no f2f ones except under the most unusual or circumstances), and thought carefully about some all-online plenary-type sessions. I think it would also be wise to think carefully about how much work we are taking on and, in particular, how broad the commitment needs to be to spin up a WG. Especially with fewer f2f meetings and more reliance on interims that people need to be really committed to the WG to attend (even online), we could easily see increasing numbers of WG where almost all of the participants share a single point of view on the relevant issues and how they should be addressed. The IETF adds almost no value to such groups other than endorsements of their conclusions. Perhaps things have evolved to the point that people want the IETF to be in that business, but I'm not enthused. In any event, I think we need to consider the possibility that an IETF that needs to rely on fewer traditional in-person meetings -- no matter the mix of online and hybrid ones-- simply cannot sustain the amount and quality of work on which the IETF built its reputation. In addition, if we go in that direction, or even stay with the current "hybrid" model, I'd encourage the IESG to think about reinstating a meeting pattern we dropped many years ago, I believe under pressure from too many WGs. That was to start the meetings of with a Monday morning plenary that summarized important issues for the week and even included reports from each Area about what they were doing and focusing on. HotRFC has taken over a bit of that job, but I suggest is a patch rather than a replacement for an opportunity for the community to get a general understanding of what is being worked on and for individuals to make decisions about how to invest their time (ideally with a less crowded agenda). best, john _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches ___________________________________________= ____ Manycouches mailing list Manycouches@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --_000_25433DB5D07B426DAE295E598F4C586Bciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <70B25CB68374D749B6A122858760BEDC@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great points Eliot. This thread and my experience in shmoo and in running t= he IETF Hackathons has taught me that in addition to a wide range of opinio= ns, participants in IETF efforts have a wide range of working styles, circu= mstances, and preferences, and that these change over time. Some people would almost certainly benefit from fe= wer in person meetings and be more productive and successful in their IETF = efforts. Some would suffer, and others would disengage entirely. 

Many of us experienced benefits as a result of IETF 113 bei= ng held in person. This was true for everyone I encountered in person and f= or several who were remote. I suspect some remote participants found it mor= e difficult to engage than at previous online only meetings. As an in person participant, I found it more challen= ging to follow two sessions in parallel and to participate in active chat s= essions in Meetecho while using my laptop in a meeting room than I did when= at home with my detached keyboard and two large monitors.

One of the greatest challenges faced with online only = Hackathons was facilitating the mixing people and ideas and the sharin= g of knowledge and expertise that occurs so naturally when we come tog= ether in person. It was fantastic to add this valuable element back to the Hackathon. Running code created and improved= at each Hackathon is valuable, but so are the exchange of ideas,= the extension of human networks, and the building of new friendships,= respect, and trust. Meeting in person for large chunks of time made this all possible again.

I believe we should focus on continuing to make remote part= icipation better, not only for the remote participants but for those engagi= ng with remote participants while they themselves are participating in pers= on. Few people participated in person at IETF 113 than at previous in person meetings. A number of factors contr= ibuted to that. COVID played a part as did reduced travel budgets. The more= important it was to someone to participate in person, the more pain and ri= sk they were willing to endure. By continuing to improve the remote experience, we will shift the tipping = point between deciding to participate in person vs remote. Personal, work, = and world circumstances will change with each meeting. My hope is that rath= er than explicitly aiming to reduce the number of in person meetings or apply other one-size-fits-all requirem= ents for all IETF efforts and participants, we simply continue to do what w= e can to provide people with better options for when and how they participa= te.

Cheers,
Charles


Hi John,

Your note ties to Mark Nottingham's draft about the schedulin= g of virtual interims. 

I'll just add that "dropping in" is something that = could be better facilitated by virtual interims because there are less chan= ces of conflicts.  That's because there are so many simultaneous track= s at an in-person IETF meeting.

I'm not sure I agree with you about not holding in-person int= erims.  I firmly believe that the RFC Editor Future Development Progra= m could have accomplished its work about a year sooner than we did, had we = been able to meet in person.  Of course, the chairs couldn't even begin to contemplate such a meeting due to COVID.=   But I will note that almost all of our progress was made in high bandwidth settings, = and conversely almost none of the serious issues we faced got resolved over ema= il.  Now, that may have been the nature of the work.  The program= wasn't a working group, and in particular it largely didn't address techni= cal problems.

Still, what I take from that is that once one has a good star= ting point, there are phases of work within a working group where high band= width access is very important, and one hour every three months isn't going= to cut it.  If there are substantial amounts of issues to be discussed, then a two or even three day face to fa= ce seems appropriate.  I think the httpbis working group demonstrated = that with great success.

Was there a mono-culture in that working group? Maybe so, but= the alternative would be that not only would http3 not be on the way, but = likely http2 would still be in process.  And we certainly didn't have = a mono-culture in the RFC program, and we had plenty of interims.

I'm not saying that every dispute can be resolved just due to= an in person meeting.  Sometimes, other factors come into play. = For those who particpated in webrtc, it seemed that an evolution of though= t and process was required.  I think I saw some of that in the RFC program as well.

Eliot

On 13.04.22 05:17, John C Klensin wrote:
--On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 14:41 -0700 Fred Baker
<fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:


On Apr 12, 2022, at 8:51 AM, Joel M.=
 Halpern
<=
jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:

Trimmed, to comment on one possibility raised by Eliot.
Joel

On 4/12/2022 11:29 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
...
 * Mandatory virtual interim meeting=
s at a certain tempo
...

Actually, I would prefer fewer virtual per-WG interim
meetingss.   As a person who participates in a lot of IETF
working groups, and also in other SDOs, regular virtual
interim meetings are a pain.  Regular virtual interim
meetings in the sweet spot that people like for international
calls makes everything collide.  Having interims when there
is actually a need for discussion on a specific topic makes
good sense.  But interim meetings at a "certain tempo".
Please, no.

Yours,
Joel
I concur. The point of plenary meeti=
ngs is, in part, to
justify the travel expense, and the point of meetings at all
is to enable people to talk with each other face to face.
Regular face to face interims would mean that many people
would simply not find the expense justified, and virtual
interims prevent the face to face conversations that need to
be had.
To take this a step further, one of =
the IETF's main strengths
lies in the ability of people to look in on and participate in
work outside their main area of expertise, activities that often
start on a drop-in basis.  I think we could continue (or resume)
that with fewer meetings a year as long as we renew our strong
commitment to doing most of our work on mailing lists and to
focus there and on occasional meetings.  At least for the WG's
I'm following (fewer than years ago, see below), many virtual
interims often act as substitutes for that mailing list work,
possibly leading to getting more work done but at the price of
broad participation (at least sometimes due to the choice of
times for those meetings).  Except, perhaps, for people with
unlimited travel budgets and the ability to spend most of their
time on the IETF, f2f interims would likely be even worse,
resulting in participants making tradeoffs between traveling to
and participating in those interims because the are most
involved with (or sponsored for) the WGs holding them and other
WGs to which they could be contributing broader perspectives
and/or the plenary meetings themselves.

I think we could get by with two, or possibly even one, f2f
plenary meeting a year without much damage... but only if we
recommitted to trying to get as much done as possible on mailing
lists, minimized the number of interims (with no f2f ones except
under the most unusual or circumstances), and thought carefully
about some all-online plenary-type sessions.=20

I think it would also be wise to think carefully about how much
work we are taking on and, in particular, how broad the
commitment needs to be to spin up a WG.  Especially with fewer
f2f meetings and more reliance on interims that people need to
be really committed to the WG to attend (even online), we could
easily see increasing numbers of WG where almost all of the
participants share a single point of view on the relevant issues
and how they should be addressed.  The IETF adds almost no value
to such groups other than endorsements of their conclusions.
Perhaps things have evolved to the point that people want the
IETF to be in that business, but I'm not enthused.  In any
event, I think we need to consider the possibility that an IETF
that needs to rely on fewer traditional in-person meetings -- no
matter the mix of online and hybrid ones--   simply cannot
sustain the amount and quality of work on which the IETF built
its reputation.

In addition, if we go in that direction, or even stay with the
current "hybrid" model, I'd encourage the IESG to think about
reinstating a meeting pattern we dropped many years ago, I
believe under pressure from too many WGs.  That was to start the
meetings of with a Monday morning plenary that summarized
important issues for the week and even included reports from
each Area about what they were doing and focusing on.   HotRFC
has taken over a bit of that job, but I suggest is a patch
rather than a replacement for an opportunity for the community
to get a general understanding of what is being worked on and
for individuals to make decisions about how to invest their time
(ideally with a less crowded agenda).

best,
   john



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Manycouches mailing list
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<OpenPGP_0x87B66B4= 6D9D27A33.asc>_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
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--_000_25433DB5D07B426DAE295E598F4C586Bciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Apr 13 23:47:58 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80C863A0FFF for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 23:47:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jXE4OnGO8UPj for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 23:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEDB53A10CB for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 23:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:a19c:819a:bd55:d9f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8A477280289; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 09:47:37 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1649918857; bh=jbz/xcSMQOQygqj7iH+PSFfoinwylu5i0bMif+gTX9s=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=zbHnx4+PyifXx1Ptz2w2Ns2pVdw/DVyp92rLD3O3MQrFBSYKfRaAdrPYVoBhnOWpa p5+WNFTvKt8wzL48oO+lYU5xfRmHFVryRLrelT94fQaST+L5XSKBbIe+wByNsnaRj5 HLl61iE7899WDb+y9Xd9mo56rkrG6tt6etekwbWY= Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4126C443-0658-48F8-882C-5D9C66A672A9"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.80.82.1.1\)) From: Lars Eggert In-Reply-To: <0d87a7ba-b0dd-cffb-9a51-c02fd9ab8fc2@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 09:47:26 +0300 Cc: Eliot Lear , Manycouches@ietf.org Message-Id: References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <0d87a7ba-b0dd-cffb-9a51-c02fd9ab8fc2@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell X-MailScanner-ID: 8A477280289.A39D4 X-MailScanner: Not scanned: please contact your Internet E-Mail Service Provider for details X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 06:47:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4126C443-0658-48F8-882C-5D9C66A672A9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2022-4-12, at 22:43, Stephen Farrell = wrote: > We could start that by just > describing potential train journeys to the meeting city and > see if it turns into something people start to like. (So no > need to mandate anything or modify meeting criteria RFCs to > get started.) are people not already looking into trains when they travel? When I = lived somewhere with better long-distance train connections, I looked = into trains for any trip that wasn't long-haul anyway, because they make = the trip much more comfortable. W/o wearing any hats, I'd like to push back a bit on having the = secretariat become a travel agency. I think having them "describe = potential train journeys" is asking for a bit much. They're already = providing much more information then I see most other meeting organizers = provide. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_4126C443-0658-48F8-882C-5D9C66A672A9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmJXw34ACgkQVLXDCb9w wVeG5w/+II21JZbF8q29ArgA9cOb4qV7ELd5041dryRh/qMODvIbLoUHR7aqmc8r DEaDPbNLYbwUjj9mjvvb1dsRdrDMa9+f9TUzLpObqvIW2bADBBWdCwrrh5DVtb/1 aahu0g03xKbdcmVDPXSHq8rgPaHTRkamTPaEhga1r3vQd7TaItxwBMWopO9CdMlZ UnzeBNpYHg+dpgW/b/m4GGRcbzMDd3+dB+1KhC0+0sc8aeBx2E0tYlZJQ45GpcbN TnaW+5zimlvX62r2rH2fZPrJmQ/V4qrUIB9A3dcbEV7BSFjHE6MP3/ei40dZhmEB czNpCw7TQk1/LDS93pwVYJEjqNqdmH/vtMKqWRJqUprSHPAALFF7syrMIpeHARm8 CdRr6cM8Uq3ttlik14ypcjexKohZ8Hs35XC5U7e3hIPC9wTSTKCsttVRc7DWStWh L1ddK8yRAII1RPOT9bjtxy/5RxC9xx0txQbEfBmhFSm31OS+UDrvAB4oL/lZZMRK /wtOXNbr1ignBL4FXTomxF0Tbq7K7/g1VMP8LiMjZw/YD0qN6NVo+SH/vDOxRmRo TNAUrZwZPqJsaMDxwqXBY51gPERs17AEGJLLcqDg5MpjZaJGn+sIAdXYa7I6OQrb ndGIFxunzX7Jxk9V+bwKLYBNeRIjjDCbkZpX46ixkpklopSO8tA= =sS8j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_4126C443-0658-48F8-882C-5D9C66A672A9-- From nobody Thu Apr 14 02:45:35 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F1F93A0E1D for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 02:45:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=switch.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t49oOzEVTNxo for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 02:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.switch.ch (mx4.switch.ch [85.235.88.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FDA03A0E1C for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 02:45:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=switch.ch; l=1406; s=selector1; t=1649929529; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date: message-id:mime-version; bh=MBcPOrgegaWJyA1eRIt79tgp6T5HLMgnTa8xFq6b7sc=; b=C3RPtHVVZQ25RouAdfdzMkOV7NUm3x3ro3N7fE0deKxNAs8bX3RzYTaG KCCZ8pddRjhLOiNqC0fu2cmAtyHAJzITJ8z5Tpn9jvhpjfHGzfUazfYBt DNamoRuAFZbW1+UlOyvPkww7a+U15+JuufEIj5e6bkYoq6NdWVZUupF+Z l7ww9IB7iN4PJB30lNMe2Sl03Nu8y/6+v3eFAZkp8wKS/B/1H86Qaxn2L R/hL3HnHNp3I7tWs5GwBB991hpCSAbYcV+6AZL+rKdrDhW8EVwIQUilSo XGPMln7yQN4/QyQMpJKfLnB+wxM+cnqlpWaONyngaw8P9vudA1yO0XPQz g==; X-IronPort-MAIL-FROM: simon.leinen@switch.ch X-IronPort-RCPT-TO: lear@lear.ch, Manycouches@ietf.org, stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie, lars@eggert.org X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.90,259,1643670000"; d="scan'208";a="265446" Received: from unknown (HELO SWH-S04-EXC2.swd.switch.ch) ([172.16.60.12]) by mx4int.switch.ch with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Apr 2022 11:45:25 +0200 Received: from macsl (172.16.60.33) by SWH-S04-EXC2.swd.switch.ch (172.16.60.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.986.22; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:24 +0200 From: Simon Leinen To: Lars Eggert CC: Stephen Farrell , , Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: (Lars Eggert's message of "Thu, 14 Apr 2022 09:47:26 +0300") References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <0d87a7ba-b0dd-cffb-9a51-c02fd9ab8fc2@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (darwin) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:45:25 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Originating-IP: [172.16.60.33] X-ClientProxiedBy: SWH-S05-EXC3.swd.switch.ch (172.16.60.14) To SWH-S04-EXC2.swd.switch.ch (172.16.60.12) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 09:45:34 -0000 Lars Eggert writes: > Hi, > On 2022-4-12, at 22:43, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> We could start that by just >> describing potential train journeys to the meeting city and >> see if it turns into something people start to like. (So no >> need to mandate anything or modify meeting criteria RFCs to >> get started.) > are people not already looking into trains when they travel? When I > lived somewhere with better long-distance train connections, I looked > into trains for any trip that wasn't long-haul anyway, because they > make the trip much more comfortable. Some of us are. But as I said, train travel (planning) has some logistic challenges, especially for people who aren't used to it. Therefore, providing specific information centrally could help convince people to try this mode of transportation. > W/o wearing any hats, I'd like to push back a bit on having the > secretariat become a travel agency. I think having them "describe > potential train journeys" is asking for a bit much. They're already > providing much more information then I see most other meeting > organizers provide. I understand, and I don't want to impose more work on the secretariat, especially when it falls outside their areas of expertise. Maybe a pointer to a per-meeting IETF Wiki page that could be filled by train aficionados/local folk? -- Simon. 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: zsAeRjH8MSvtQdy6kqBQ6RCURZ10jfn8mfyqmH2qbKJVg2aljdyIOWDWK58KGBcC X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR02MB5687 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:33:32 -0000 --------------QNF0x0nnZKmlyBpqDDmZtWq5 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------i2UPDitaWZLLCZigg6W2DjPx"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Simon Leinen , Lars Eggert Cc: Manycouches@ietf.org, Eliot Lear Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 References: 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SIGNATURE----- --------------QNF0x0nnZKmlyBpqDDmZtWq5-- From nobody Thu Apr 14 04:22:32 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A44E3A0908 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 04:22:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.344 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.344 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URI_DOTEDU=1.997] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hhBLHVLr_JrV for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 04:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr 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13:22:22 +0200 Message-ID: <1c686217-3435-c051-cf0f-5cd429ef3dcd@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:22:22 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: fr To: "manycouches@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] covid forecast of a (no)wave for Summer IETF in Philadelphia, USA X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:22:31 -0000 Hi, SHMOO participants, This email is about forecasting the covid wave (or no wave) peak for Philadelphia, during the Summer IETF of 2022. Will the local covid wave be in a low, ascent, peak, plateau or descent during the meeting in Philadelphia? Ideally, there would be no covid wave then and there, but one never knows. Hence the need of a forecast. The following two URLs illustrate forecasts that suggest that there might be no high wave of new cases in July 2022 in the Pennsylvania state of USA: https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/pennsylvania?view=resource-use&tab=trend&resource=all_resources https://www.covid19.uga.edu/nowcast.html On another hand, the forecasthub provides many models for short term 3-week forecast. Their predictions vary from a strong descent to an exponential-like ascent of the wave until May 7th, 2022. The URL is this: https://viz.covid19forecasthub.org/ CDC is an authority in USA. It offers many covid forecasts, but lacks a display of a forecast of new cases at this time. This is the URL: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#forecasting_weeklycases --- Personally, with a calculator at hand, I'd say the next wave peak of new cases would be on May 6th, 2022, with a correlation factor of 0.88 (1 if an exact fit, or highest confidence). It is calculated using a 'Root' regression: ab^1/x of WP43S present on gitlab; it is fed with the list of the 5 earlier wave peak distances in Philadelphia district of the Pennsylvania state I could identify roughly from CDC, outbreak.info and worldometers: 244, 124, 155 and 117 (days between approximate peaks of April 11th, 2020, Dec. 11th, Apr. 14th, 2021, Sept. 16th and Jan. 11th, 2022). I did not use 'Ensemble' models, nor the R mathematical software package; also, I did not use specific covid-related epidemiology factors such as vaccination effect forecasts, masks mandates, lockdown measures or similar heuristics. Alex PS: another interesting wave forecast, but for UK, shows there might a peak of 'prevalence' (blue line, probably directly proportional to 'new cases') on approx. Jan. 2nd, 2023. It is at this URL: https://www.fil.ion.ucl.ac.uk/spm/covid-19/forecasting/ PPS: California forecasts as well, but not the case numbers. This is the URL: https://calcat.covid19.ca.gov/cacovidmodels/ From nobody Thu Apr 14 06:48:37 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C8D53A1A5B for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 06:48:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ovhwx1sSCmdl for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 06:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A09BC3A1A5E for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 06:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF7CF38C14; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id s_hRGwC_NzNY; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [172.30.2.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9783E38C13; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A67FE4AE; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 09:48:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Lars Eggert , Stephen Farrell , Manycouches@ietf.org, Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <0d87a7ba-b0dd-cffb-9a51-c02fd9ab8fc2@cs.tcd.ie> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 27.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:48:36 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lars Eggert wrote: > On 2022-4-12, at 22:43, Stephen Farrell > wrote: >> We could start that by just describing potential train journeys to t= he >> meeting city and see if it turns into something people start to >> like. (So no need to mandate anything or modify meeting criteria RFCs >> to get started.) > are people not already looking into trains when they travel? Corporate travel agencies just can't be bothered. Sometimes, they can't even book. That's not our problem though. Maybe part of our problem is that we should have some actual numbers for CO2 emissions by asking participants. > W/o wearing any hats, I'd like to push back a bit on having the > secretariat become a travel agency. I think having them "describe > potential train journeys" is asking for a bit much. They're already > providing much more information then I see most other meeting > organizers provide. Yet, actually, they already do, by RFC8718 look at locations that minimize travel segments from major airports to the Venue. The Maastrich venue was widely criticized because it required people take a train for the last leg. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQFKBAEBCgA0FiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmJYJioWHG1jcitpZXRm QHNhbmRlbG1hbi5jYQAKCRCAi3D73dDdZfDsB/9aM3F5u/Pff9A7fpiJV1w6Yz5/ BY5Z0/lp2pBw6i+PGhPxA3oqw3Et1w3WNTrH0X9/7/40BmL8QXUxsIGutAmIdHaH 8Ua9sg1hwKXFguaesz+K69Ron0a8Gzp7Za/eFZK2e8GpjELlzorPblthsyog8lEE JcZHebnuBj4acVEKNhn25l5Jix8fj/mFHwO6hOKeG7icHT81Kdkxd4nCERw/FCEi WkMDiitU3k/VevEwhitKUoKGa0KHgGZKfVQX+xbcQ80tzlG/IpgAtKmJAU5L2WBd oUH18aaye9YSrJjtW+689MmpCKNnA9ySSRIRpXXJ6ibfVCQk2qlTpkF0mW9F =mM3O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Apr 14 06:52:43 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 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(UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: Dc6UyveCgqPk1qrfTsju+71IH+iBaXIsdQ8l+kHu0QeuHOwEpOn9TAxLKV3verUv X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PAXPR02MB7840 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:52:42 -0000 --------------6vHnq6de0Ou90ALJ10bJqYUx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ZCEmujoDV3t3qak5kXHGc7u8"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Michael Richardson , Lars Eggert , Manycouches@ietf.org, Eliot Lear Message-ID: Subject: Re: 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Thu, 14 Apr 2022 18:29:44 +0200 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4KfPyK4K0Pz9fC for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 09:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.17] (helo=xmail07.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nf2K1-00038Z-FO for Manycouches@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 09:27:53 -0700 Received: (qmail 16714 invoked from network); 14 Apr 2022 16:27:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.107]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.16]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail07.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 14 Apr 2022 16:27:52 -0000 Message-ID: <69c82e0f-8c54-de27-8701-3ae008522c53@huitema.net> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 09:27:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Stephen Farrell , Michael Richardson , Lars Eggert , Manycouches@ietf.org, Eliot Lear References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <0d87a7ba-b0dd-cffb-9a51-c02fd9ab8fc2@cs.tcd.ie> <2107.1649944106@localhost> From: Christian Huitema In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.122 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5zHEgWaVCK+C1nrPrMa1mZSfFx4ECBbLS8uxFBzI3AKHy5p 5spvuX8ij/ULW2ETvYGonaNQbqJUPRwZtKOTN8gOSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLVzObbL13a7/+AYM+EyQdmbnGFd932lfz+R/06O3Iy4amaVarp Z0LfU2AP/MzLXlymkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7IBAaAB9SiL80iwHtGBZiikgJ7Yk+SWN8eNDNBlkTeVa0O sgkYGNyY+79joZcxsoWfKK8qgoX3qtqBY7olcAAV8nYUYKqwGwZHdaZ8HwmXaEfTulJRptMnEIdG JW7dfhGq92PNDpgLsd6Ddd/s7VM53qOIGOFL0gQ2oHtkTTWGFJwOtp+q3yU+z72+fnpodgpDz4LJ 57x3rRc6TQgKOR0uhLUwzCP5OlLHyRiX8Tw0+bhmMRr+w2X69ygMahiTQMBdyjjNrRXx/WMqqTUa QCIwAvoPFZIShBSdpVJW5HbjQTCUIzbw71BPKv8cPtVshTSLr6YHJu91A3avrF49rf9JcoEpejCA XczArXyV+OFXiMtbLPp9n350Mbemie5JWWm/MpxAyl4q1x5O0+PBD/gPmWjXVA9S7TnWXDlmMpVd cwCFwrnT0GQK/7labXRdXAB+MS+4ayUpOtEhdxekWDmK9g== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 16:29:49 -0000 On 4/14/2022 6:52 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > On 14/04/2022 14:48, Michael Richardson wrote: >> The Maastrich venue was >> widely criticized because it required people take a train for the >> last leg. > > I remember that. It was kinda hilarious IMO but I guess > that just shows the range of different perspectives we > have. Compare meeting in Amsterdam (flying to Amsterdam no train leg) to meeting in Maastricht (flying to Amsterdam, then take the train). I don't quite see how the latter reduces carbon emissions. -- Christian Huitema From nobody Thu Apr 14 10:04:59 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440363A12BA for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:04:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sandelman.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9XH0kf0OKyjX for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E88C53A12B6 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33DA638995; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id f2S7EmfHbjOO; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:16:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF97438990; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:16:40 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sandelman.ca; s=mail; t=1649956600; bh=ZXb4ro8pDDloXK1sOYG5WCFMi4XG37J/ia0Eeml88BE=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=e32OMNYoHUQPM43AGivLOUFSni4xo1tN2C18mFzV8Fvio12PWCgW+ES6wXurMFNa5 ptE8d3YWp4XtnGKbpf/Tu5Tzom8xjS2NkyxxvenVw969GoRQRYcxlRBPVzGmos9h0g nqZRirCkM7630PCDV7VneMLtkt3J6VOOyjOV9IPAjmTSp6rR/UZufB0xON/lFD4y/2 sxffOWsT/yNmEVKp8RdsRsLHH2bQq7QqonCU3pNkse1+99jFgFf/SLFaOVz1XOF51g UJchSpSaR7GAnxoPCpmP8JTvaGnwiXCka8Le++R2VjT+bMazn/Fvz6+t2ysrHwSupM SxVN+fbB2Ctdg== Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 815BF38; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:04:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Christian Huitema , Stephen Farrell , Lars Eggert , Manycouches@ietf.org, Eliot Lear In-Reply-To: <69c82e0f-8c54-de27-8701-3ae008522c53@huitema.net> References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <0d87a7ba-b0dd-cffb-9a51-c02fd9ab8fc2@cs.tcd.ie> <2107.1649944106@localhost> <69c82e0f-8c54-de27-8701-3ae008522c53@huitema.net> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 27.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:04:58 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Christian Huitema wrote: >> On 14/04/2022 14:48, Michael Richardson wrote: >>> The Maastrich venue was widely criticized because it required people >>> take a train for the last leg. >> >> I remember that. It was kinda hilarious IMO but I guess that just >> shows the range of different perspectives we have. > Compare meeting in Amsterdam (flying to Amsterdam no train leg) to > meeting in Maastricht (flying to Amsterdam, then take the train). I > don't quite see how the latter reduces carbon emissions. 1) I suspect Maastricht is cheaper for the room than AMS. This matters for accessibility to more. Maastricht is closer to the German border, which may mean many people in Germany might take the train. 2) You probably only get a direct flight to AMS if you fly KLM (or a partner). The people flying to Frankfurt or Munich wind up with a CO2 intensive short-haul flight to AMS. If they instead took the train, there would be a win. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQFFBAEBCgAvFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmJYVC8RHG1jckBzYW5k ZWxtYW4uY2EACgkQgItw+93Q3WXgMQf+LUKPMbG0ger8bi8FepWzZGnuiaZX0lFj 4c8CrYhUK1lR10M4mnVqGoOpvY2q3e64lGd9M2d/1GeS2sqDozqk77wZaEpHomr7 Ac6yU3eRxS+ZHocCAPPCyKKsLsUI9If2H0XDHIC+tV/xwKWpsTBGrmyElAqHPLz7 1bM1UKDseyKl/dRbruaHyitpp7zxTPdvDSaTc1dXFV31UOtLdKtBkU1552Mgsw6O XeuMu0d7SB9eA+ML0B+ikxbHphQTwrbv/9Ak+NauZl9uKWtGbQi0y2ahBEGZaBZB QMWK5DsY9fn3c86TzwtM+gW1M4u4nOL/2M0LzOoHAbgkRknKu5E41g== =1Zfi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Apr 14 10:16:13 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C813A1745 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:16:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sandelman.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A666wrrbW05z for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CA803A173E for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403DC38BC3; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id ERUccIIq4dKc; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:27:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1A0F38BC0; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:27:57 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sandelman.ca; s=mail; t=1649957277; bh=0SldVDWAa2wxamBteKijSDdEhXBx6nXOcDbLG9z+Sq4=; h=From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=1iZ0V2Zl7v18Oq6UIqGh/EaLsCfglxJuTob9NNFOvR9bzFC2Oxp7FWdtwqEu5C46l Zp466jJi6gsF2VJzuIX8nRJL4ip7xYA/GxnmehOMI50lg9aIolaas65NqVHugM0b9n WeUAm5mHoWFVlR47yjvPp6RCAgd//g/oCsNHQWPMpIDmo73BTQfrf+kkpRqEHrdFFb OxvgkF/iOgUBWaCwLDzm1TMdikJwxUjJ3oOKdeNb8vnWtMDTFi3UkpMp1wbcDmdmEn 04T2DwPzlbnvH/4xIcU05iVK5SsnEZdIp56SWHIob8HMx1kVeThvBdPmp730pKu2el FJULXqlCG/8Qw== Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794B838; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:16:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Livingood, Jason" cc: Alexandre Petrescu , "Manycouches@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <19EB90E9-F235-404B-B69A-4E19F69F1D10@cable.comcast.com> References: <1c686217-3435-c051-cf0f-5cd429ef3dcd@gmail.com> <19EB90E9-F235-404B-B69A-4E19F69F1D10@cable.comcast.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 27.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] covid forecast of a (no)wave for Summer IETF in Philadelphia, USA X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 17:16:12 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Livingood, Jason wrote: > On 4/14/22, 07:22, "Manycouches on behalf of Alexandre Petrescu" > alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: >> https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/pennsylvania= ?view=3Dcumulative-deaths&tab=3Dtrend > I would not look at a Pennsylvania dashboard, as the state of quite > large and extremely varied in local support for COVID mitigation > measures & vaccination rates. As you might imagine, large metro areas > tend to diverge from the rural parts of the state. And, maybe like 40% of "Philadephians" live in Trenton,NJ and Camden,NJ and other parts of south Jersey. > In any case, what C19 will look like in Philadelphia or anywhere else > in July 2022 is anyone's guess. Be happy we can predict weather 7 days out. We couldn't do that 20 years ago :-) =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQFKBAEBCgA0FiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmJYVtQWHG1jcitpZXRm QHNhbmRlbG1hbi5jYQAKCRCAi3D73dDdZbx7B/kBTGeR1KR5uBHqhJ/4TB56rp3/ aX3BIts1qVOrIROlo9a38ToYy1pzXtEQ9WdSwYZ2UG4DezLMhK13rIBjLh/joVha ToOGDKVkRP2lsT4XAvSs+XSCSUdb+awNIaYhZqj8+Ivkp5PmTLo7hcpFfMxSonWv ENmqV/vi8cuTDtqictwXHr95Cr1OTGqhJXOh1+q2N35qG0FewBDNKq2IKgZwcWHy lHpLVLtubd3nuegNRiw5suxYPUBcopIDdb7KGvemK2Tk3jea8YySbewwhHGKAR7k fHpMSYzfutj5jGAZABFNmkGuyEBm6pSkaUyPQgsgG39zc3dZIYd59FFP9HDb =1cKb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Apr 14 13:48:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC8A3A17E8 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:48:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.462 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.462 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (2048-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=iecc.com header.b=PCgDgEiL; dkim=fail (2048-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=taugh.com header.b=GUiJ4HXt Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kxRJuqV6bJBx for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A4BE3A17E0 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 13:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 74103 invoked by uid 100); 14 Apr 2022 20:48:11 -0000 Date: 14 Apr 2022 20:48:10 -0000 Message-ID: From: "John Levine" To: manycouches@ietf.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:cleverness; s=1216f.6258888a.k2204; i=news@user.iecc.com; bh=WLF7OuLI/Tg8blPuDBfrNF3mlwUiQK5wH7VwVYb7SB8=; b=PCgDgEiLjT4skqXgnK4EhOe5Tf2jgUyRgw+latNDAdBhq/jjP+lWXASbh7WMISselqC10HKWLiUoho7r9QNNp1txkPKs77jBcxThF+D2YJUtOYxdY/hKcBXihCH+/HG7V4o9o+TGpZYZbScPEawoFLyYKCbQUdM+ArpzxJyFOZXVPR52k4B/mOAaZOD3sq0T90rfmYpriwg1JLLRrnqO/C9puGHwqJ8239lgVmg9nCbEy8o4CyzKRUobPvbC9sIJMD8l316+vb6PqqjV9z38gMa6EBaaSlx3WsiKNAhuFkwjdOP6vysBYrnp+dvB9J+q/GyGIzko34TXY+ptUbX9Xg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:cleverness; s=1216f.6258888a.k2204; olt=news@user.iecc.com; bh=WLF7OuLI/Tg8blPuDBfrNF3mlwUiQK5wH7VwVYb7SB8=; b=GUiJ4HXtPv1RUWLgb4zB6j0rjawBG7Zp1oYYxH5wCFOCyltnk4Q9K8oTEzY7ALJefx9/UuXc6VACeEKNWEBEgVhRUd6EP30CPzB4TcDNMcuWGt1TEy1imyh/r+DUdUkk+G3jTAQrVv4qdTStkbyW/J7B/NQcQhWu2+7eH1wZN6YJTQ7BcLFb7kAWV1VJCsfpxzGvCFxCqaxqYIYs5QlUTo3MUYC46LLSl5aURTKXQkQekQYpbd77GfaDFS4I8JdIRKiKL5BylAdyuaNHMvGMunlxvQYFw9klmtnbpVAZBiWM2S/MYe3kyijzJEIoqWDnwBCNiyuU5i3k4sIG+dO+9w== Organization: Taughannock Networks References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <69c82e0f-8c54-de27-8701-3ae008522c53@huitema.net> <31449.1649955887@localhost> In-Reply-To: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <69c82e0f-8c54-de27-8701-3ae008522c53@huitema.net> <31449.1649955887@localhost> Cleverness: some X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010) Originator: johnl@iecc.com (John Levine) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] trains and planes, Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 20:48:18 -0000 According to Michael Richardson : >2) You probably only get a direct flight to AMS if you fly KLM (or a > partner). The people flying to Frankfurt or Munich wind up with a > CO2 intensive short-haul flight to AMS. If they instead took the train, > there would be a win. Frankfurt airport to Maastricht by train is about four hours with 3 or 4 connections. Nunich airport to Maastricht by train is 8 or 9 hours, 3 or 4 connections or 6 if you like living dangerously. I think that sounds like fun, but I am strange. It's a reasonable train trip from AMS or BRU and maybe CDG but not from other airports. This is all easy to find on the usual rail booking sites like trainline.eu so I don't think we need a lot more advice than where to buy train tix. -- Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Thu Apr 14 19:43:26 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 931653A0DB1 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:43:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qd3Ny87qmG0L for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x233.google.com (mail-lj1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E5663A0DAE for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x233.google.com with SMTP id n17so3255307ljc.11 for ; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:43:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=U8o18his2J3eoaA9VMuwOHCoby6gOwefM+KlHrFPQ/Y=; b=H/NEpVCOjNzvResEGmpDOGlb0mljhTJarT8xE1AC9m/Y6vBUuDJft7Vr19fwf/M0uH 9FG350bZ+YECihYY7/clZoMfWMHTH2nBlxIK3KWymaiHqEZqoTLbifyn9TnaCXpoSFi6 zgcYFoLuPfL1qAWHN2eT3orfKS4RKtEvyP2ZuetgfWeM8kTvI9nejUKN5yLYtIolkD8G 2JcuhgkKUcJdKlIHoImBrqAoUDkZ7mpSAmgd+2yAQ13MKrAvleTS2sujlxnKtw90BTcN io9mHnRpWaukOCXZoKFQHNQ+CnbsoKTNKNdG3wg4XjJu3idd0/KfNp0R+YbugXFFoD3e EDhw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=U8o18his2J3eoaA9VMuwOHCoby6gOwefM+KlHrFPQ/Y=; b=YX/VKmTjzpe20XZcDnGf/iqXJKFi+DCv+nRlo/2GumVhX5WVZCc+Ti52+37jHh4e5h 7xhbcGkHilIBu77R94Bg0PNrhwTBT+PaHgEcpE4Cew3J0192grexKUNcqpdXENKu7yjO 6oQApKJzArFiQyhUoQEBJvAG4Ublt7Wp4QfLFf+zWTUfkFI488tMaPVLYJ6FUY4DLmp1 1PU+vrmXRpU7Zke3m2PH/dHxkmXaob55iF/BnKiQHqrekuprjy53k9fb2PK3eaH78Puj ev462rZvZb1k4eVdjszb0GrLCxwgxeKMMEBtetb3kUONmuQxevH55Okww+dncfjyc2Bl bQvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533xE3WoHK3cgMq+gZe4KjEdlNZSsjBT4rZYta+il9XW1lSl86we alwMcNr+WQnwuHz/Tx0qGeQYZ5kjXZsXubdqYS3EmfNM X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyuzrSrZYml6U9LKIWyD6q4t1DZVAF0yscVKlNFdrGk++s7vIIkb0RPtMxP2UnsQTnhj5SmE7JTnZAh1oK7ZTI= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9345:0:b0:24b:451:7ce1 with SMTP id m5-20020a2e9345000000b0024b04517ce1mr3207969ljh.258.1649990596192; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:43:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> <522eef29-4ebe-44be-7bb8-2b5bf977cb9f@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <522eef29-4ebe-44be-7bb8-2b5bf977cb9f@gmail.com> From: Daniel Migault Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:43:05 -0400 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005e6e3705dca85ffc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 - carbon emissions X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 02:43:24 -0000 --0000000000005e6e3705dca85ffc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alexandre, You can also find all IETF graphs here: https://mglt.github.io/co2eq/IETF/IETF/ The co2eq repo can be found here: https://github.com/mglt/co2eq Yours, Daniel On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 9:02 AM Alexandre Petrescu < alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > I agree and thank you for the numbers. > > Le 12/04/2022 =C3=A0 18:43, Daniel Migault a =C3=A9crit : > > Hi, > > > > We are mostly talking about reducing the number of IETF meetings as > > three meetings represents on average 12 673 tonnes of CO2 / year. > > 12673 tonnes? > > I found 1500 tonnes, or roughly 1.500.000 kg CO2, to be needed for 500 > IETFers return travelling Paris-NYC for all 3 IETFs a year. > > Air France calculator https://corporate.airfrance.com/fr/co2/calculateur > > Alex > > It is > > measurable. It is a main source of upstream emissions in corporate > > organizations (see [1]). We have a direct impact on it. It is a direct > > offset and it shows the path to other organizations. > > > > I do agree that we need to focus on the solutions that have the most > > potential. This is especially where offset can be challenged and the > > reason to publish a sustainability and corporate responsibility report > > for the IETF - as did Ericsson recently for example [1]. > > > > As a side comment, the evocation of the kerosene lamps - at the shmoo > > meeting resonated with me a bit with a 1000'nish wealthy people asking > > 1.3 billion of (poor) people to replace their lamp so we can travel. I > > would like to clarify that the intent was to illustrate that one needs > > to focus where it has the most impact. > > > > The potential that protocol represents remains to be shown. I am happy > > that those raising such assertions share their data, publications. So > > far - as mentioned in the session - my understanding is that most > > emissions come from the extraction, manufacturing and transport of the > > products. As a result, I am relatively not optimistic on the impact of = a > > section "Carbon emissions considerations" - but happy to be wrong. > > > > Yours, > > Daniel > > > > [1] > > > https://www.ericsson.com/en/about-us/sustainability-and-corporate-respons= ibility/sustainability-report > > < > https://www.ericsson.com/en/about-us/sustainability-and-corporate-respons= ibility/sustainability-report > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 11:29 AM Eliot Lear > > wrote: > > > > Hi Jay, > > > > Thanks for your message. Please see below. > > > > On 12.04.22 11:56, Jay Daley wrote: > >> Hi Eliot > >> > >> The major point about offsetting, which I think we agree about, is > >> that offsetting is an "after the fact" action, not a preventative > >> measure. I understand that some will say "what=E2=80=99s the harm= in > >> meeting X times, if we offset all the emissions" but, without > >> commenting on the rights and wrongs of that, the response to that > >> should not be to attack offsetting as a concept. Instead, we > >> should be taking the approach that it is vital for us to offset > >> all of our emissions, whatever the level of those emissions. In > >> other words whether we meet three times a year or once a year, we > >> should be offsetting those emissions. > > > > I 100% agree. And I further agree that we MUST meet. I opine that > > we should meet in person LESS but when we do meet, we SHOULD offset > > our impact. What we SHOULDN'T do is think of offsets as a pure > > substitute. > > > > > >> > >> When it comes to choosing the offsetting mechanism(s), the plan I > >> outlined at shmoo was to bring in experts to hold some open > >> sessions where they explain the various methods and help us make > >> an informed choice. As someone in shmoo pointed out, one of the > >> largest aggregate emitters of carbon are kerosene lamps and > >> schemes aimed at replacing those are direct offset schemes, not a > >> carbon credit market. > >> > > Good to know. > > > > > >> > >> When we discuss how often to meet in person, I strongly recommend > >> looking at the data from our post-meeting surveys: > >> https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/past/ > >> Reading through all of > >> those shows some clear data points: > >> > >> - productivity at in-person meetings is, on average, much higher > >> than remote meetings,. Sure, we can=E2=80=99t quantify this and w= e don=E2=80=99t > >> have the other links in the chain to measure if that increase in > >> productivity leads to a reduction in effort elsewhere. > >> > >> - the ability of people to come to in-person meetings depends very > >> much on where the meeting is held. If we drop down to one meeting > >> per year then we will rotate through every region over a three > >> year cycle and for many people that will mean they can only meet > >> in person once every three years. > >> > >> Neither of those are meant to be "that=E2=80=99s why we should con= tinue to > >> meet 3x a year" arguments, just points to consider in the overall > >> debate. > > > > As I wrote, I didn't provide a specific recommendation. That's > > because I could see this working in quite a number of ways forward, > > and I'd like to see shmoo explore them. A few possibilities includ= e > > the following: > > > > * Mandatory virtual interim meetings at a certain tempo > > * Mandatory in-person interim meetings > > * Raising the requirements for working groups to meet in person, > > including at the plenary meetings. > > o Required controversy > > o Virtual meetings held > > * A cap on the number of in person meetings for working groups. > > > > These are just a few possibilities, and it is by no means an > > exhaustive list. > > > > I realize figuring our way forward here would wreak havoc with our > > conference planning, and with the lives of the people who provide u= s > > an excellent experience, but at least to me, the risks of not actin= g > > are too high. > > > > Eliot > > _______________________________________________ > > Manycouches mailing list > > Manycouches@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Daniel Migault > > Ericsson > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Manycouches mailing list > > Manycouches@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > --=20 Daniel Migault Ericsson --0000000000005e6e3705dca85ffc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alexandre,=C2=A0

You can also = find all IETF graphs here:

The co2eq repo can be found here:
<= div>

Yours,=C2=A0=
Daniel

On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 9:02 AM Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.pet= rescu@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree and thank you for the numbers.

Le 12/04/2022 =C3=A0 18:43, Daniel Migault a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
> Hi,
>
> We are mostly talking about reducing the number of IETF meetings as > three meetings represents on average 12 673 tonnes of CO2 / year.

12673 tonnes?

I found 1500 tonnes, or roughly 1.500.000 kg CO2, to be needed for 500
IETFers return travelling Paris-NYC for all 3 IETFs a year.

Air France calculator https://corporate.airfrance.= com/fr/co2/calculateur

Alex

It is
> measurable. It is a main source of upstream emissions in corporate > organizations (see [1]). We have a direct impact on it. It is a direct=
> offset and it shows the path to other organizations.
>
> I do agree that we need to focus on the solutions that have the most <= br> > potential. This is especially where offset can be challenged and the <= br> > reason to publish a sustainability and corporate responsibility report=
> for the IETF - as did Ericsson recently for example [1].
>
> As a side comment, the evocation of the kerosene lamps - at the shmoo =
> meeting resonated with me a bit with a 1000'nish wealthy people as= king
> 1.3 billion of (poor) people to replace their lamp so we can travel. I=
> would like to clarify that the intent was to illustrate that one needs=
> to focus where it has the most impact.
>
> The potential that protocol represents remains to be shown. I am happy=
> that those raising such assertions share their data, publications. So =
> far - as mentioned in the session - my understanding is that most
> emissions come from the extraction, manufacturing and transport of the=
> products. As a result, I am relatively not optimistic on the impact of= a
> section "Carbon emissions considerations" - but happy to be = wrong.
>
> Yours,
> Daniel
>
> [1]
> https://www.ericsson.com/en/about-us/sustainability-and-corporate-re= sponsibility/sustainability-report
> <https://www.ericsson.com/en/about-us/sustainability-and-corpora= te-responsibility/sustainability-report>
>
> On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 11:29 AM Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch
> <mailto:lear@lear= .ch>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Jay,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks for your message.=C2=A0 Please see below. >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 12.04.22 11:56, Jay Daley wrote:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Eliot
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The major point about offsetting, which I think= we agree about, is
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that offsetting is an "after the fact"= ; action, not a preventative
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0measure.=C2=A0 I understand that some will say = "what=E2=80=99s the harm in
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0meeting X times, if we offset all the emissions= " but, without
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0commenting on the rights and wrongs of that, th= e response to that
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should not be to attack offsetting as a concept= .=C2=A0 Instead, we
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be taking the approach that it is vital = for us to offset
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0all of our emissions, whatever the level of tho= se emissions.=C2=A0 In
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0other words whether we meet three times a year = or once a year, we
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be offsetting those emissions.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I 100% agree.=C2=A0 And I further agree that we MUS= T meet.=C2=A0 I opine that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we should meet in person LESS but when we do meet, = we SHOULD offset
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0our impact.=C2=A0 What we SHOULDN'T do is think= of offsets as a pure
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0substitute.
>
>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0When it comes to choosing the offsetting mechan= ism(s), the plan I
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0outlined at shmoo was to bring in experts to ho= ld some open
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sessions where they explain the various methods= and help us make
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0an informed choice.=C2=A0 As someone in shmoo p= ointed out, one of the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0largest aggregate emitters of carbon are kerose= ne lamps and
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0schemes aimed at replacing those are direct off= set schemes, not a
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0carbon credit market.
>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Good to know.
>
>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0When we discuss how often to meet in person, I = strongly recommend
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0looking at the data from our post-meeting surve= ys:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings= /past/
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/how/meet= ings/past/> Reading through all of
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0those shows some clear data points:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- productivity at in-person meetings is, on ave= rage, much higher
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0than remote meetings,.=C2=A0 Sure, we can=E2=80= =99t quantify this and we don=E2=80=99t
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have the other links in the chain to measure if= that increase in
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0productivity leads to a reduction in effort els= ewhere.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- the ability of people to come to in-person me= etings depends very
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0much on where the meeting is held.=C2=A0 If we = drop down to one meeting
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0per year then we will rotate through every regi= on over a three
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0year cycle and for many people that will mean t= hey can only meet
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in person once every three years.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Neither of those are meant to be "that=E2= =80=99s why we should continue to
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0meet 3x a year" arguments, just points to = consider in the overall
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0debate.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As I wrote, I didn't provide a specific recomme= ndation.=C2=A0 That's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0because I could see this working in quite a number = of ways forward,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and I'd like to see shmoo explore them.=C2=A0 A= few possibilities include
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the following:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Mandatory virtual interim meetings at a ce= rtain tempo
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Mandatory in-person interim meetings
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Raising the requirements for working group= s to meet in person,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0including at the plenary meetings. >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o Required controversy
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o Virtual meetings held
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* A cap on the number of in person meetings = for working groups.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0These are just a few possibilities, and it is by no= means an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0exhaustive list.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I realize figuring our way forward here would wreak= havoc with our
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0conference planning, and with the lives of the peop= le who provide us
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0an excellent experience, but at least to me, the ri= sks of not acting
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are too high.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Eliot
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Manycouches mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Manycouches@ietf.org <mailto:Manycouches@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailma= n/listinfo/manycouches
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/manycouches>
>
>
>
> --
> Daniel Migault
> Ericsson
>
> _______________________________________________
> Manycouches mailing list
> Manycouches@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouc= hes

_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches


--
Daniel Migault
Ericsson
--0000000000005e6e3705dca85ffc-- From nobody Thu Apr 14 19:45:52 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E563A0DE8; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:45:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f0hvyfJlYDcr; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x132.google.com (mail-lf1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F36D43A0DE0; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id bi26so12120266lfb.2; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:45:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=l0ttumpSmLPH9wdHtfGWoxlu7AuiVzT37MPKoy8jh+w=; b=epJHQiWSm0toOK7bDqglG8e8ENkoaDg2BL7IM7baYmJA5TMEjPkq5wwqK85LK+oAOl /gNx+4IrSd5MgvoqmrSRlD+t8QwAaDVSH914zQL8o16XwjrIySnTcAyp8BBXfCYi5iPM nevpOXEdV7Dbc69HJkbIDcWJ00r0uz7gX8WCPLgxRc8wmxw8Trt5M69fcUdlbtSFe+gh QPi6QMk8x+P++ufTUMWwWYONAugHWmj7vgnMgONN11FWj6VK1X7I6yWGm+xBo5+Rbm+l rjGtKsEg6wZFYbtjxxHZnfu7UuMq8pn4fCJ6P0Q8SXOKdhL5bOQZ93tPRuwXNhPxtupp rBGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=l0ttumpSmLPH9wdHtfGWoxlu7AuiVzT37MPKoy8jh+w=; b=2/C6qheujQAh/pWc10P7Gi2mrzYrdVGrqazMJOpcDFB6tcCTynRIvucZCWVCyJGQpT pKwpnmIzIw/xTWop9un5V5MObvNM7PKAWmLcMdex2tDN5dALn4AtSJNJh+rpG+ZeP/V2 xom47x5CzzQxm2dm8B2WqqccboQZTpF6hhMOGjW6CcvX6eG42pZiZq5MlgGG6QOxEqar JU2Lfe8c+RqrLIm0wK2XIi8bWQWFpqJn4yhvvbiNcMCUqjMuRMmPmYClW2wv3z8C37rC U/XY3boVxUPHx0eVeRRG9lyWVJiDyCo6DWgdfMl0SWgzG/h1DpaxkoF95Bi/ZOikvCZl TqmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5335i//BDojNAt7820NfL5dWkZyjL9DyHY6G1/tSIbhhwH0+QmNF jVk4r/U25JrI1p8Wv6vc1koZtag/iJsXdm7Sx6ZgD8Pd X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJydZ9zy157Z1xpPuOiAk4QPzsH/OQoyDZYimJ8AJZ8kXRnVvgCn0Q0NatjWSDqKreYb1hJVQVT8HlOeuDiXxCo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:10cc:b0:44a:24da:f621 with SMTP id k12-20020a05651210cc00b0044a24daf621mr3661077lfg.7.1649990745075; Thu, 14 Apr 2022 19:45:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> <355979943.1061.1649838465078@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <355979943.1061.1649838465078@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Daniel Migault Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2022 22:45:33 -0400 Message-ID: To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: Jay Daley , Eliot Lear , Manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003e30ec05dca86855" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 02:45:50 -0000 --0000000000003e30ec05dca86855 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Vittorio, On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 4:28 AM Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > Il 12/04/2022 11:56 Jay Daley ha scritto: > > > Hi Eliot > > The major point about offsetting, which I think we agree about, is that > offsetting is an "after the fact" action, not a preventative measure. I > understand that some will say "what=E2=80=99s the harm in meeting X times= , if we > offset all the emissions" but, without commenting on the rights and wrong= s > of that, the response to that should not be to attack offsetting as a > concept. Instead, we should be taking the approach that it is vital for = us > to offset all of our emissions, whatever the level of those emissions. I= n > other words whether we meet three times a year or once a year, we should = be > offsetting those emissions. > > I am all in favour of donations from the IETF to any carbon offsetting > mechanism. I just want to add that there is a global regulatory trend to > include additional carbon taxes into the cost of air travel, so it may be > that our emissions are offset already when we buy the ticket. Still, the > more the better. > > Also, in philosophical terms, I do take issue with Daniel's comment durin= g > the presentation that travelling in person is "20th century" and travelli= ng > virtually is "21st century". Actually, when people are asked what progres= s > would be to them, many mention the ability of being able to travel more, > and more freely, and know other cultures better. One would hope that by > seeing more of the world the IETFers would generally be more open minded, > at least if they manage to get out of the hotel every now and then :) And= I > do feel sometimes that this community is narrow minded and scarcely diver= se. > Just to clarify, the intention was to say that policies and settings that were defined in a 20th century context need to be reconsidered and considered 21th century. I am not saying traveling in person has no benefits. I am saying that their associated CO2 emissions have probably been ignored - or at least under-estimated - at the time meeting policies were established in the 20th century. These cannot be ignored in the 21th century. Regarding your comment on diversity, virtual meetings with a lower cost is likely to make IETF participation more affordable and improve the diversity within the IETF - not only outside. A 21th practice seems to publish a Sustainability and Corporate Responsibility report, and it would be good if the IETF considers publishing it soon. It includes among other aspects human factors, social aspects, direct economy impact, emissions that would make possible to balance all aspects. > > Moreover, there are parts of the world where foreign tourism is an > essential part of the local wealth - basically what allows people to get > out of poverty. This does not apply to meetings in North America or Europ= e > (except South-Eastern Europe), but Bangkok, for example, would be one of > those cases. Under this viewpoint, if we are so concerned about the world= , > we may want to prefer meeting in places where the money we bring, even if > at the price of travel, creates good socioeconomic value. Though they are > also likely to be the ones that involve longer travel in average... But t= he > point is that pollution is not the only social impact of business travel > and not the only factor to consider to make "ethically good" choices. > I understand you are proposing that meeting location (and choice of hotels) policies should consider a more sustainable approach. While this seems to be a different topic, it seems to me that it goes back to the need for the IETF to publish a SCR. > > I listened to the recording of the shmoo meeting regarding Daniel's > analysis, and I took from it several points. The points I took away were > these: > > - By some models on average, individuals that attend three meetings > per year create as much emissions as an average German in one year. > > This is a one-size-fits-all approach which is unfair and rather dangerous= . > Many of us, including myself, have made choices to reduce their > environmental footprint long ago. Others maybe move all the time in a > 2.5-ton SUV and will already have polluted like three or four Germans > without even buying the ticket. All in all, it is the individual who has = to > be responsible and choose where to allocate their environmental impact an= d > how to minimize it. If we proceed with the hybrid model, people and > companies that feel like they have to stop travelling will be able to do > so, while others who choose to allocate their CO2 to travel will also be > able to do so, and everybody will be happy. The problems start when some > people want to push their own personal assessments onto the entire > organization. > > True, average can be seen as a one-size-fits-all approach but this seems quite common. That is correct, we probably find one person emitting less and one emitting more than the average. Emissions are likely characterizing the country's economy and in that case Germany and Poland are relying on coal to produce energy more than other economies/countries. There is no specific intention to target one country more than another. Whether one person in the country has a SUV or not does not impact too much on the number. As usual, this should not be taken as an encouragement to buy an SUV, but what matters is the aggregate and the effort needs to be collective. This is an important issue and I share the objective, though my personal > assessment is that we cannot reduce the meetings in person at least for t= he > next 2-3 years, while the social damage of the pandemy is being recovered= . > I am just worried that, like other non-technical topics in the recent pas= t, > this issue will prompt a divisive discussion in which people who disagree > with the trend will be singled out and questioned at a moral level. > > You are not the only one willing to 3 in person meetings a year, however, I have not seen any objective data to support the claims that we cannot do less than three in person meetings. I believe that by non-technical topics you mean non IETF specific technical topics. But interestingly, I would agree that the lack of scientific or technical arguments to justify keeping the IETF running as it has always run is an issue. I believe that analyses that concluded to reduce the number of meetings are actually supported by some data and scientific estimations - which I would rather qualify as technically founded. In that sense bringing less subjective and non technical arguments would be beneficial. I agree. The publication of a SCR would probably help heading in the right direction and bring some technicality to support in person meetings. That said, I would be surprised the outcome of the SCR would be to continue having 3 in person meetings a year. > -- vb. > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > --=20 Daniel Migault Ericsson --0000000000003e30ec05dca86855 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Vittorio,=C2=A0

=20 =20 =20

Il 12/04/2022 11:56 Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> ha scritto:


Hi Eliot

The major point about offsetting, which I think we agree about, is that= offsetting is an "after the fact" action, not a preventative mea= sure.=C2=A0 I understand that some will say "what=E2=80=99s the harm i= n meeting X times, if we offset all the emissions" but, without commen= ting on the rights and wrongs of that, the response to that should not be t= o attack offsetting as a concept.=C2=A0 Instead, we should be taking the ap= proach that it is vital for us to offset all of our emissions, whatever the= level of those emissions.=C2=A0 In other words whether we meet three times= a year or once a year, we should be offsetting those emissions.
I am all in favour of donations from the IETF to any carbon offsetting m= echanism. I just want to add that there is a global regulatory trend to inc= lude additional carbon taxes into the cost of air travel, so it may be that= our emissions are offset already when we buy the ticket. Still, the more t= he better.

Also, in philosophical terms, I do take issue with Daniel's comment = during the presentation that travelling in person is "20th century&quo= t; and travelling virtually is "21st century". Actually, when peo= ple are asked what progress would be to them, many mention the ability of b= eing able to travel more, and more freely, and know other cultures better. = One would hope that by seeing more of the world the IETFers would generally= be more open minded, at least if they manage to get out of the hotel every= now and then :) And I do feel sometimes that this community is narrow mind= ed and scarcely diverse.

Just t= o clarify, the intention was to say that policies and settings that were de= fined in a 20th century context need to be reconsidered and considered 21th= century. I am not saying traveling in person has no benefits. I am saying = that their=C2=A0associated CO2 emissions have probably been ignored - or at= least under-estimated - at the time meeting policies were established in t= he 20th century. These cannot be ignored in the=C2=A021th century.=C2=A0
Regarding your comment on diversity, virtual meetings=C2=A0 with a = lower cost is likely to make IETF participation more affordable and improve= the diversity within the IETF - not only outside.=C2=A0

A 21th practice seems to publish a Sustainability and Corporate Resp= onsibility report, and it would be good if the=C2=A0IETF considers publishi= ng it soon. It includes among other aspects human factors, social aspects, = direct economy impact, emissions that would make possible to balance all as= pects.=C2=A0




Moreover, there are parts of the world where foreign tourism is an essen= tial part of the local wealth - basically what allows people to get out of = poverty. This does not apply to meetings in North America or Europe (except= South-Eastern Europe), but Bangkok, for example, would be one of those cas= es. Under this viewpoint, if we are so concerned about the world, we may wa= nt to prefer meeting in places where the money we bring, even if at the pri= ce of travel, creates good socioeconomic value. Though they are also likely= to be the ones that involve longer travel in average... But the point is t= hat pollution is not the only social impact of business travel and not the = only factor to consider to make "ethically good" choices.

I understand you are proposing that me= eting location (and choice of hotels) policies should consider a more susta= inable approach.=C2=A0 While this seems to be a different topic, it seems t= o me that it goes back to the need for the IETF to publish=C2=A0 a SCR.

I listened to the recording of the shmoo meeting regarding Da= niel's analysis, and I took from it several points. The points I took a= way were these:

  • By some models on average, individuals that attend three me= etings per year create as much emissions as an average German in one year.<= /li>
This is a one-size-fits-all approach which is unfair and rather dangerou= s. Many of us, including myself, have made choices to reduce their environm= ental footprint long ago. Others maybe move all the time in a 2.5-ton SUV a= nd will already have polluted like three or four Germans without even buyin= g the ticket. All in all, it is the individual who has to be responsible an= d choose where to allocate their environmental impact and how to minimize i= t. If we proceed with the hybrid model, people and companies that feel like= they have to stop travelling will be able to do so, while others who choos= e to allocate their CO2 to travel will also be able to do so, and everybody= will be happy. The problems start when some people want to push their own = personal assessments onto the entire organization.

True, average can be seen as a one-siz= e-fits-all approach but this seems quite common. That is correct, we probab= ly find one person emitting less and one emitting more than the average. Em= issions are likely=C2=A0 characterizing the country's=C2=A0 economy and= in that case Germany and Poland are relying on coal to produce energy more= than other economies/countries. There is no specific intention to target o= ne country more than another. Whether one person in the country has a SUV o= r not does not impact too much on the number. As usual, this should not be = taken as an encouragement to buy an SUV, but what matters is the aggregate = and the effort needs to be collective.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
This is an important issue and I share the objective, though my personal= assessment is that we cannot reduce the meetings in person at least for th= e next 2-3 years, while the social damage of the pandemy is being recovered= . I am just worried that, like other non-technical topics in the recent pas= t, this issue will prompt a divisive discussion in which people who disagre= e with the trend will be singled out and questioned at a moral level.

You are not the only one willin= g to 3 in person meetings a year, however, I have not seen any objective da= ta to support the claims that we cannot do less than three in person meetin= gs.=C2=A0
I believe that by non-technical=C2=A0topics you mean=C2= =A0non IETF specific technical topics. But interestingly, I would agree tha= t the lack of scientific or technical arguments to justify keeping the IETF= running as it has always run=C2=A0 is an issue. I believe that analyses th= at concluded to reduce the number of meetings are actually supported by som= e data and scientific estimations - which I would rather qualify as technic= ally founded. In that sense bringing less subjective and non technical argu= ments would be beneficial. I agree. The publication of a SCR would probably= help heading in the right direction and bring some technicality to support= in person meetings.=C2=A0

That said, I would=C2= =A0be surprised the outcome of the SCR would be to continue having 3 in per= son meetings a year.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
-- vb.
_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches


--
Daniel Migault
Ericsson
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Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:35:40 +0200 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:35:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Daniel Migault Cc: Manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <1781142774.2794.1650011740546@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> <355979943.1061.1649838465078@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2792_1115114721.1650011740518" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.6-Rev12 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 08:41:12 -0000 ------=_Part_2792_1115114721.1650011740518 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Il 15/04/2022 04:45 Daniel Migault ha scritto: > > > > > True, average can be seen as a one-size-fits-all approach but this seems quite common. That is correct, we probably find one person emitting less and one emitting more than the average. Emissions are likely characterizing the country's economy and in that case Germany and Poland are relying on coal to produce energy more than other economies/countries. There is no specific intention to target one country more than another. Whether one person in the country has a SUV or not does not impact too much on the number. As usual, this should not be taken as an encouragement to buy an SUV, but what matters is the aggregate and the effort needs to be collective. I am puzzled by this. Then, you could also say that if one person takes a flight to attend an IETF meeting does not impact too much on the number. This is not what you wanted to say. Since what matters is the aggregate, here is the aggregate: https://www.iea.org/commentaries/carbon-emissions-fell-across-all-sectors-in-2020-except-for-one-suvs An SUV with one person on board generates around 130 g/km of CO2 per person[1]. A Boeing 747-400 on a long international flight generates around 100 g/km of CO2 per person[2]. Then, the main factor becomes how many kilometers you make. Depending on where the meeting is, you may fly 2000 or 10000 km or more - let's assume 5000 in average. How much time does it take for you to drive 5000 km on your SUV? It depends on your personal transportation patterns, but for the average car owner that would be three months, for some even less. In the end, how much you fly is not the decisive, life or death factor in saving the planet. It is more complicated. Some, for example, would claim that the decisive factor is how much meat you eat: some estimates place the emissions from beef at 100'000 g of CO2 and CO2-equivalent greenhouse gases per kg[3]; 1 kg of beef = 1000 km on a flight = 750 km on an SUV. Now, this is not a good reason to just continue flying carelessly. If we can spare some meetings, let's do it. But we could also continue meeting in person while rotating the places and encourage people more than 1000-2000 kms away to attend remotely. Or we could simply conclude that what we do is so important, and so better done in person, that we should continue meeting in person and rather focus our own emission reduction targets on something else, like the personal use of cars or the needless production of waste. What I dislike is the idea that the organization decides for everyone where they should focus their own emission reduction practices, which IMHO is a personal responsibility. (The collective responsibility is rather to make sure that the economic incentives are appropriately set, i.e. that all negative externalities of each product and activity are properly included within their prices, so that flying becomes more expensive and people reduce travel automatically, but according to their own priorities.) I would rather prefer that each of us has a choice, and the hybrid model meeting allows this quite well. Then, if most people choose to attend remotely, physical meetings will naturally die out for lack of interest. In any case, this is a discussion that we need to have and of course this is just my view of the problem. Then, one more thing: > > You are not the only one willing to 3 in person meetings a year, however, I have not seen any objective data to support the claims that we cannot do less than three in person meetings. We are not robots and this is not a matter of science, it is a matter of humanity. We need to socialize for our wellbeing - if we don't, we become mentally insane, as many people did in these last two years. Data are useful to assess the consequences of our choices, but this is not a mathematical optimization problem. [1] https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/06/20210602-eea.html [2] https://www.carbonindependent.org/22.html [3] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201677/greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-major-food-products/ -- vb. ------=_Part_2792_1115114721.1650011740518 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Il 15/04/2022 04:45 Daniel Migault <mglt.ietf@gmail.com> ha scritto:

True, average can be seen as a one-size-fits-all approach but this seems quite common. That is correct, we probably find one person emitting less and one emitting more than the average. Emissions are likely  characterizing the country's  economy and in that case Germany and Poland are relying on coal to produce energy more than other economies/countries. There is no specific intention to target one country more than another. Whether one person in the country has a SUV or not does not impact too much on the number. As usual, this should not be taken as an encouragement to buy an SUV, but what matters is the aggregate and the effort needs to be collective.
I am puzzled by this. Then, you could also say that if one person takes a flight to attend an IETF meeting does not impact too much on the number. This is not what you wanted to say.

Since what matters is the aggregate, here is the aggregate:


An SUV with one person on board generates around 130 g/km of CO2 per person[1]. A Boeing 747-400 on a long international flight generates around 100 g/km of CO2 per person[2].

Then, the main factor becomes how many kilometers you make. Depending on where the meeting is, you may fly 2000 or 10000 km or more - let's assume 5000 in average. How much time does it take for you to drive 5000 km on your SUV? It depends on your personal transportation patterns, but for the average car owner that would be three months, for some even less. In the end, how much you fly is not the decisive, life or death factor in saving the planet. It is more complicated. Some, for example, would claim that the decisive factor is how much meat you eat: some estimates place the emissions from beef at 100'000 g of CO2 and CO2-equivalent greenhouse gases per kg[3]; 1 kg of beef = 1000 km on a flight = 750 km on an SUV.

Now, this is not a good reason to just continue flying carelessly. If we can spare some meetings, let's do it. But we could also continue meeting in person while rotating the places and encourage people more than 1000-2000 kms away to attend remotely. Or we could simply conclude that what we do is so important, and so better done in person, that we should continue meeting in person and rather focus our own emission reduction targets on something else, like the personal use of cars or the needless production of waste.

What I dislike is the idea that the organization decides for everyone where they should focus their own emission reduction practices, which IMHO is a personal responsibility. (The collective responsibility is rather to make sure that the economic incentives are appropriately set, i.e. that all negative externalities of each product and activity are properly included within their prices, so that flying becomes more expensive and people reduce travel automatically, but according to their own priorities.)

I would rather prefer that each of us has a choice, and the hybrid model meeting allows this quite well. Then, if most people choose to attend remotely, physical meetings will naturally die out for lack of interest.

In any case, this is a discussion that we need to have and of course this is just my view of the problem.

Then, one more thing:
You are not the only one willing to 3 in person meetings a year, however, I have not seen any objective data to support the claims that we cannot do less than three in person meetings.  
We are not robots and this is not a matter of science, it is a matter of humanity. We need to socialize for our wellbeing - if we don't, we become mentally insane, as many people did in these last two years. Data are useful to assess the consequences of our choices, but this is not a mathematical optimization problem.



-- vb.
------=_Part_2792_1115114721.1650011740518-- From nobody Fri Apr 15 01:48:46 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9DCA3A0DD3 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 01:48:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.658 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.658 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 73pULnEyMpTA for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 01:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC7B93A0DD2 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 01:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 23F8mdY9013896 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:48:39 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id E722E206BCC for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:48:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD1B5206ABE for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:48:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.32.130] (is245935.intra.cea.fr [10.8.32.130]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 23F8mcHG028284 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:48:38 +0200 Message-ID: <3be41bdb-231a-2d6b-68ad-f83c591bb519@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:48:39 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: fr To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <7e716ee4-d243-1a1b-cd61-b2adb541350a@lear.ch> <7985BE2D-F76A-454D-A87D-43D4B4968314@ietf.org> <355979943.1061.1649838465078@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <355979943.1061.1649838465078@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Daniel presentation @ 113 X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 08:48:44 -0000 Le 13/04/2022 à 10:27, Vittorio Bertola a écrit : > >> Il 12/04/2022 11:56 Jay Daley ha scritto: >> >> >> Hi Eliot >> >> The major point about offsetting, which I think we agree about, is >> that offsetting is an "after the fact" action, not a preventative >> measure. I understand that some will say "what’s the harm in >> meeting X times, if we offset all the emissions" but, without >> commenting on the rights and wrongs of that, the response to that >> should not be to attack offsetting as a concept. Instead, we >> should be taking the approach that it is vital for us to offset all >> of our emissions, whatever the level of those emissions. In other >> words whether we meet three times a year or once a year, we should >> be offsetting those emissions. > I am all in favour of donations from the IETF to any carbon > offsetting mechanism. I just want to add that there is a global > regulatory trend to include additional carbon taxes into the cost of > air travel, so it may be that our emissions are offset already when > we buy the ticket. Still, the more the better. > > Also, in philosophical terms, I do take issue with Daniel's comment > during the presentation that travelling in person is "20th century" > and travelling virtually is "21st century". Actually, when people are > asked what progress would be to them, many mention the ability of > being able to travel more, and more freely, and know other cultures > better. One would hope that by seeing more of the world the IETFers > would generally be more open minded, at least if they manage to get > out of the hotel every now and then :) And I do feel sometimes that > this community is narrow minded and scarcely diverse. I agree with both comments about travelling in-person being 20th century, and about the inner need of mobility freedom and culture openness. In that sense, there is this new view of the multimodal transportation. Traditionally, multimodal transportation means to combine various modes (train, car, etc) to effectively bring a person to a destination. But a new view might consider the virtual presence to be an additional step in that chain of modes. Travel in person, but only up to the point where Internet is so good that a digital projection of the person to the meeting room, and back, largely outcomes the costs of carbon emissions of further travel beyond that point. For example: travel materially from home to the closest 'cave' equipped with sensors and Internet at terabit/s bandwidth, and immerse from there to the IETF meeting room on the Internet, rather than taking a plane. Alex > > Moreover, there are parts of the world where foreign tourism is an > essential part of the local wealth - basically what allows people to > get out of poverty. This does not apply to meetings in North America > or Europe (except South-Eastern Europe), but Bangkok, for example, > would be one of those cases. Under this viewpoint, if we are so > concerned about the world, we may want to prefer meeting in places > where the money we bring, even if at the price of travel, creates > good socioeconomic value. Though they are also likely to be the ones > that involve longer travel in average... But the point is that > pollution is not the only social impact of business travel and not > the only factor to consider to make "ethically good" choices. >>> >>> I listened to the recording of the shmoo meeting regarding >>> Daniel's analysis, and I took from it several points. The points >>> I took away were these: >>> >>> * By some models on average, individuals that attend three >>> meetings per year create as much emissions as an average German >>> in one year. >>> > This is a one-size-fits-all approach which is unfair and rather > dangerous. Many of us, including myself, have made choices to reduce > their environmental footprint long ago. Others maybe move all the > time in a 2.5-ton SUV and will already have polluted like three or > four Germans without even buying the ticket. All in all, it is the > individual who has to be responsible and choose where to allocate > their environmental impact and how to minimize it. If we proceed with > the hybrid model, people and companies that feel like they have to > stop travelling will be able to do so, while others who choose to > allocate their CO2 to travel will also be able to do so, and > everybody will be happy. The problems start when some people want to > push their own personal assessments onto the entire organization. > > This is an important issue and I share the objective, though my > personal assessment is that we cannot reduce the meetings in person > at least for the next 2-3 years, while the social damage of the > pandemy is being recovered. I am just worried that, like other > non-technical topics in the recent past, this issue will prompt a > divisive discussion in which people who disagree with the trend will > be singled out and questioned at a moral level. > > -- vb. > > _______________________________________________ Manycouches mailing > list Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Fri Apr 15 03:46:51 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8D593A0896 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 03:46:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.662 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.662 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_06=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h2uv1dVWq0U1 for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 03:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04E8E3A088D for ; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 03:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 23FAkac5017000; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:46:36 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 8DCDF206E72; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:46:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72568206E3E; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:46:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.32.130] (is245935.intra.cea.fr [10.8.32.130]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 23FAkaaX001485; Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:46:36 +0200 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------Iot4G8G3NaMO4nhKuUgl6Efk" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:46:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.8.0 Content-Language: fr To: "Livingood, Jason" , "Manycouches@ietf.org" References: <1c686217-3435-c051-cf0f-5cd429ef3dcd@gmail.com> <19EB90E9-F235-404B-B69A-4E19F69F1D10@cable.comcast.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <19EB90E9-F235-404B-B69A-4E19F69F1D10@cable.comcast.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] covid forecast of a (no)wave for Summer IETF in Philadelphia, USA X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List for discussion of remote meeting attendance and virtual IETF meetings, as well as for SHMOO working group" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:46:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------Iot4G8G3NaMO4nhKuUgl6Efk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Jason, Le 14/04/2022 à 16:30, Livingood, Jason a écrit : > On 4/14/22, 07:22, "Manycouches on behalf of Alexandre Petrescu" wrote: >> https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/pennsylvania?view=cumulative-deaths&tab=trend > I would not look at a Pennsylvania dashboard, as the state of quite large and extremely varied in local support for COVID mitigation measures & vaccination rates. As you might imagine, large metro areas tend to diverge from the rural parts of the state. > > You can find Philadelphia's stats athttps://www.phila.gov/programs/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/data/testing/. The city is reimposing an indoor mask mandate in the next few days (though positive tests are still quite low vs. the January 2022 Omicron BA.1 surge. Thank you for the URL.  More local data is indeed more valuable. I might use it for my own calculations, which would be more precise, would offer more confidence. > > In any case, what C19 will look like in Philadelphia or anywhere else in July 2022 is anyone's guess. I agree it is anyone's guess; but I would not discard it, because it might be the only way to try to see better. Other than my own guess yet to be formed, there are these forecasts on the Internet; their forecast for July 23rd depends on a 'model', a 'certainty', and a 'scenario'. If I were to select only the model Ensemble, certainty 95% and scenario 'pessimistic but no immune variant', then their forecast of March 19th says that on July 23rd the state of Pennsylvania would be right after a peak of new cases. This is the illustration from this URL https://covid19scenariomodelinghub.org/viz.html  (the vertical date bar is drawned by me): Alex > > Jason > > --------------Iot4G8G3NaMO4nhKuUgl6Efk Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------FMLG280uWh3WhMwT6HWBwbh0" --------------FMLG280uWh3WhMwT6HWBwbh0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi, Jason,

Le 14/04/2022 à 16:30, Livingood, Jason a écrit :
On 4/14/22, 07:22, "Manycouches on behalf of Alexandre Petrescu" <manycouches-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/pennsylvania?view=cumulative-deaths&tab=trend
I would not look at a Pennsylvania dashboard, as the state of quite large and extremely varied in local support for COVID mitigation measures & vaccination rates. As you might imagine, large metro areas tend to diverge from the rural parts of the state.

You can find Philadelphia's stats at https://www.phila.gov/programs/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/data/testing/. The city is reimposing an indoor mask mandate in the next few days (though positive tests are still quite low vs. the January 2022 Omicron BA.1 surge.

Thank you for the URL.  More local data is indeed more valuable.

I might use it for my own calculations, which would be more precise, would offer more confidence.


In any case, what C19 will look like in Philadelphia or anywhere else in July 2022 is anyone's guess.

I agree it is anyone's guess; but I would not discard it, because it might be the only way to try to see better.

Other than my own guess yet to be formed, there are these forecasts on the Internet; their forecast for July 23rd depends on a 'model', a 'certainty', and a 'scenario'.

If I were to select only the model Ensemble, certainty 95% and scenario 'pessimistic but no immune variant', then their forecast of March 19th says that on July 23rd the state of Pennsylvania would be right after a peak of new cases.

This is the illustration from this URL https://covid19scenariomodelinghub.org/viz.html  (the vertical date bar is drawned by me):



Alex



Jason


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