From nobody Thu Jul 1 15:12:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AE7D3A0AC7 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2021 15:12:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=thinkingcat.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dx56x3jNqihU for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2021 15:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from black.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (black.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 582323A0AC6 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2021 15:12:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C9D9642A45; Thu, 1 Jul 2021 22:12:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-27-210.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.27.210]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E2889642377; Thu, 1 Jul 2021 22:12:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.27.210 (trex/6.3.3); Thu, 01 Jul 2021 22:12:48 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Wide-Eyed-Glossy: 3b8b41761f8e8eef_1625177568113_3358383590 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1625177568113:4087971220 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1625177568113 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9C78B5AE; Thu, 1 Jul 2021 15:12:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=thinkingcat.com; h=from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=thinkingcat.com; bh=G rKQhKKNO8neDBVKTf414/BlRrY=; b=Jpnq+3YT5fwbuKJKAB6VnaxZmcBMbkWii RR4UbVvuwFxoNCDx/fOSFbPUUGJu6Y0+h9icOVmV72GtbJwoFgls/DIo2F8BVIXe 56DBWu2644Z4lAXreCNZD/WBn2uflIxKIlKZiHBHmO1mfuZmqBBHI1CzhzzhwFfU PzNmRVpW30= Received: from [192.168.1.57] (vtelinet-216-66-102-83.vermontel.net [216.66.102.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ldaigle@thinkingcat.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B1E297F7E9; Thu, 1 Jul 2021 15:12:43 -0700 (PDT) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a24 From: "Leslie Daigle" To: "Stephan Wenger" Cc: mops@ietf.org Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2021 18:12:33 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5673) Message-ID: <4A5F0BCB-8008-44DE-84F3-DCBC1EEA0060@thinkingcat.com> In-Reply-To: <02F89FF2-B0BE-4DEF-82CA-2E133831A6C8@stewe.org> References: <02F89FF2-B0BE-4DEF-82CA-2E133831A6C8@stewe.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_14BB7EDD-FC9F-448E-9C77-9835379772E4_=" Embedded-HTML: [{"HTML":[1850, 3579], "plain":[1163, 1053], "uuid":"63FFE3EA-A66E-40E6-8293-BC6C897FE99D"}] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Liaison statement from SC 29/WG 3 to IETF MOPS WG (SC 29 N 19851) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2021 22:12:55 -0000 --=_MailMate_14BB7EDD-FC9F-448E-9C77-9835379772E4_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Stephan. Do we need any formal follow up, as it is for=20 information? I haven=E2=80=99t seen any follow up discussion on the list, but hope tha= t=20 people noticed: > Invitation to the public workshop: > We would like to invite your experts to participate in and contribute=20 > to a public (virtual) workshop we are planning to hold in early June.=20 > The goal is to discuss open issues and develop a proposed=20 > standardization plan for the following topics: encoder/packager=20 > synchronization, live media ingest and content storage, archiving and=20 > management. The results of the workshop will be presented to MPEG=20 > Systems WG at its coming meeting on July 12-16th, 2021 to help=20 > establishment of the standard development plan on these topics. We=20 > would appreciate it if you could announce this information to the=20 > experts in your organization and bring your agenda items or other=20 > ideas to help us understand the market needs regarding the topics. > > Planning and announcements for this workshop will be done through our=20 > mailing list, which you can subscribe at=20 > https://lists.aau.at/mailman/listinfo/synched-encoding. Leslie. On 17 Jun 2021, at 16:13, Stephan Wenger wrote: > All: > I assume you have seen this one or are otherwise aware of it? If not,=20 > sorry for the delay in forwarding. > S. > > > From: Mayumi Koike > Date: Monday, June 7, 2021 at 16:36 > To: Stephan Wenger > Cc: "young.L" , "ali.begen"=20 > , "joern.ostermann"=20 > , kyuheonkim > Subject: Liaison statement from SC 29/WG 3 to IETF MOPS WG (SC 29 N=20 > 19851) > > Dear Stephan, > In accordance with Recommendations taken at the 3rd WG 3 Meeting,=20 > 2021-04-26/30, Online, I am pleased to send attached liaison statement=20 > to IETF. > If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me. > > Thank you for your cooperation. > > Best regards, > Mayumi Koike > ----- > Mayumi Koike (Ms.) > Manager, ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 29 > IPSJ/ITSCJ (Espalier Inc.) > 1-8-25-204, Fukaehonmachi, Higashinada, > Kobe, Hyogo 658-0021 Japan > Tel: +81-78-855-8425 Mobile: +81-80-3525-5930 > Mail: koike@itscj.ipsj.or.jp > --=20 > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Leslie Daigle Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises ldaigle@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- --=_MailMate_14BB7EDD-FC9F-448E-9C77-9835379772E4_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks, Stephan. Do we need any formal follow up, as it = is for information?

I haven=E2=80=99t seen any follow up discussion on the li= st, but hope that people noticed:

I= nvitation to the public workshop:
We would like to invite your experts to participate in and contribute to = a public (virtual) workshop we are planning to hold in early June. The go= al is to discuss open issues and develop a proposed standardization plan = for the following topics: encoder/packager synchronization, live media in= gest and content storage, archiving and management. The results of the wo= rkshop will be presented to MPEG Systems WG at its coming meeting on July= 12-16th, 2021 to help establishment of the standard development plan on = these topics. We would appreciate it if you could announce this informati= on to the experts in your organization and bring your agenda items or oth= er ideas to help us understand the market needs regarding the topics.
=
Planning and announcements for this workshop will be done through our mai= ling list, which you can subscribe at https://lists.aau.at= /mailman/listinfo/synched-encoding.

Leslie.

On 17 Jun 2021, at 16:13, Stephan Wenger wrote:

All:

I assume you have seen this one or are= otherwise aware of it?=C2=A0 If not, sorry for the delay in forwarding.<= /span>

S.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Mayumi Koike <koike@itscj.ipsj.or.jp>
Date: Monday, June 7, 2021 at 16:36
To: Stephan Wenger <stewe@stewe.org>
Cc: "young.L" <young.L@samsung.com>, "ali.begen" <ali.beg= en@ozyegin.edu.tr>, "joern.ostermann" <joern.ostermann@ieee.org>= , kyuheonkim <kyuheonkim@khu.ac.kr>
Subject: Liaison statement from SC 29/WG 3 to IETF MOPS WG (SC 29 = N 19851)

=C2=A0

Dear S= tephan,

In acc= ordance with Recommendations taken at the 3rd WG 3 Meeting, 2021-04-26/30= , Online, I am pleased to send attached liaison statement to IETF.=C2=A0
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Best regards,
Mayumi Koike

-----<= br> Mayumi Koike (Ms.)
Manager, ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 29
IPSJ/ITSCJ (Espalier Inc.)
1-8-25-204, Fukaehonmachi, Higashinada,=C2=A0
Kobe, Hyogo 658-0021 Japan
Tel: +81-78-855-8425 Mobile: +81-80-3525-5930
Mail:=C2=A0koike@itscj.ipsj.or.= jp

=C2=A0

--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops

--


Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

--=_MailMate_14BB7EDD-FC9F-448E-9C77-9835379772E4_=-- From nobody Fri Jul 2 15:05:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietf.org Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0155E3A0A34; Fri, 2 Jul 2021 15:02:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: evyncke@cisco.com, mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.34.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <162526337698.26814.9795939942119473950@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2021 15:02:56 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] mops - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 111 X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2021 22:03:07 -0000 Dear Leslie Daigle, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. mops Session 1 (2:00 requested) Tuesday, 27 July 2021, Session I 1200-1400 Room Name: Room 4 size: 504 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/sessions/mops.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Media OPerationS Area Name: Operations and Management Area Session Requester: Leslie Daigle Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 50 Conflicts to Avoid: People who must be present: Eric Vyncke Glenn Deen Jake Holland Kyle Rose Leslie Daigle Renan Krishna Spencer Dawkins Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Jul 2 17:29:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with 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header.d=mnot.net header.b=tPEpnzx9; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=hRF+PlSQ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tyg5lYj67Kof for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2021 00:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6901F3A257C for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2021 00:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1823E5C0232 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2021 03:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 11 Jul 2021 03:34:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:from:to:subject; s=fm3; bh=PntnWEQsLmj 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X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrtdelgdduudekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucfpohcuuggrthgvuchfihgvlhguucdlgeelmdenuc fjughrpegtggfhvffusegrtddtredttdejnecuhfhrohhmpeftvghpohhsihhtohhrhicu tegtthhivhhithihucfuuhhmmhgrrhihuceuohhtuceoughopghnohhtpghrvghplhihse hmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeefvdduteejvdefkeehieevuefg fefhteetveegffekffefteffvdelheduieetnecuffhomhgrihhnpehgihhthhhusgdrtg homhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedvnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegu ohgpnhhothgprhgvphhlhiesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2021 03:34:19 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============1480974512329738024==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: mops@ietf.org Message-Id: <20210711075059.6901F3A257C@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 00:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] Weekly github digest (MOPS Activity Summary) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 07:51:04 -0000 --===============1480974512329738024== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Events without label "editorial" Issues ------ * ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+2/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC3) 2 issues created: - Considerations on cloud-based encoding, packaging and origin workflows = (by acbegen) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues= /81=20 - Remove note in Sec 5 (by SpencerDawkins) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues= /79=20 3 issues received 3 new comments: - #81 Considerations on cloud-based encoding, packaging and origin workfl= ows (1 by SpencerDawkins) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues= /81=20 - #26 historical charts of usage patterns with references (1 by SpencerDa= wkins) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues= /26=20 - #14 Citations for existing industry standard terminology (1 by SpencerD= awkins) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues= /14=20 2 issues closed: - Remove note in Sec 5 https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-st= reaming-opcons/issues/79=20 - Review ACKs section https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-str= eaming-opcons/issues/72=20 Pull requests ------------- * ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+1/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC0) 1 pull requests submitted: - Delete note in Section 5 (by SpencerDawkins) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8= 0=20 2 pull requests merged: - Delete note in Section 5 https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8= 0=20 - reviewed ACKS against mailing list traffic https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/7= 8=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons --===============1480974512329738024== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (MOPS Activity Summary)

Sunday July 11, 2021

Events without label "editorial"

Issues

ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+2/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC3)

2 issues created:

3 issues received 3 new comments:

2 issues closed:

Pull requests

ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+1/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC0)

1 pull requests submitted:

2 pull requests merged:

Repositories tracked by this digest:

--===============1480974512329738024==-- From nobody Mon Jul 12 11:44:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietf.org Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFEA3A0DC4; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:44:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.34.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mops@ietf.org Message-ID: <162611549779.2441.1241009196943073097@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:44:57 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons-06.txt X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 18:44:58 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Media OPerationS WG of the IETF. Title : Operational Considerations for Streaming Media Authors : Jake Holland Ali Begen Spencer Dawkins Filename : draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons-06.txt Pages : 36 Date : 2021-07-12 Abstract: This document provides an overview of operational networking issues that pertain to quality of experience in streaming of video and other high-bitrate media over the Internet. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons-06.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons-06 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jul 13 08:43:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39FA83A1899 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 08:43:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=krose.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qjiFD1f9Igfs for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 08:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C5FE3A1889 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 08:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com with SMTP id o139so35422254ybg.9 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 08:42:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=krose.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cHvRT0dGyM9ROTSiP5SD1NJ1TgmdMocAoSbbdZy135A=; b=a04HLbmZuRgka+atmbaS8xrK0u9LRkK+GUdtVPX1WHHLOvTYS8ay39m8ipbL0gfJyH rSf02koVVcOmyLwpp5yuZPP6UorPLi8YRnkJYeQG63ZfO6q15t2AksMFvNIH/FAkTJKS rhysbStYrKAz8XLcTcXsDE0+v4zmqtJ0/1kWw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cHvRT0dGyM9ROTSiP5SD1NJ1TgmdMocAoSbbdZy135A=; b=SwnQx0uKjszvpyfrQMyBY4SuwSmcTP0U/wg0uEzu71HN7uyfRj0Eo0X/Zp0nJIl2O6 Q7VNiTDOx7jX5kEleAX6s4KvFwDoIo7xPsbe5vTfrZ/gu1UMXNfJkct9VVZd0pfsVT+A 6pDT9tU1gERj+Rb9twNEEfaliI/oDuoxQg1wNpynrUZHV+bfi8HhHRzEOyha9jlMkYWG QwSSJipWSBJLJ9WwtwtLRrDSo1dY7o34QpipYhnuYR5MKbg9+WcScxJWtDm4x/jNa6ev GL0bOils9o8tJ9hN8jGNta4tteeg0VMz+OZ7GPHWJx9jToDv2UDEjSy84REC66/eql2J j2ag== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Eq9+GlgeE6DcwJpIr+9827B+/2kHIwAa6CXGOhNaj3ccX6p0a eNi8AV4Lx4bZyDcaaIE8KWL7xFXpHHPSWMV+GF+e4r3cyaE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJylhlfBTDQiWqnOJTcIAHZU2fShhIwSXddBh7TwLUGx1xfOE14I+ogOBfwEPFq5YC9zv87CB2QIZd/kGO+MlqY= X-Received: by 2002:a25:9188:: with SMTP id w8mr6364554ybl.364.1626190976448; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 08:42:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <674A60FB-8F32-472A-AB35-DBABE8EED38F@fb.com> In-Reply-To: <674A60FB-8F32-472A-AB35-DBABE8EED38F@fb.com> From: Kyle Rose Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 11:42:45 -0400 Message-ID: To: mops@ietf.org Cc: afrind=40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007d119205c7031772" Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] Fwd: Video ingest over QUIC X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 15:43:04 -0000 --0000000000007d119205c7031772 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A relevant draft of potential interest to MOPS participants. Kyle ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Alan Frindell Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 11:37 AM Subject: Video ingest over QUIC To: quic@ietf.org , wish@ietf.org , avt@ietf.org Cc: Kirill Pugin Hi, for several years, Facebook has been using its own video ingest protocol over QUIC from our apps to our infra. While we=E2=80=99ve spoken = about it before, we just now published a draft documenting how it works: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kpugin-rush-00.html. The protocol leverages the advantages of QUIC transport, and features a partially reliable mode using only QUIC v1 RST_STREAM. We welcome your feedback Thanks -Alan Frindell --0000000000007d119205c7031772 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A r= elevant draft of potential interest to MOPS participants.

Kyle


---------- Forwarded message ---------
= From: Alan Frindell <afrind=3D
40fb.com= @dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 11:37 AM
Su= bject: Video ingest over QUIC
To: quic@= ietf.org <quic@ietf.org>, wish@ietf.org <wish@ietf.org>, avt@ietf.= org <avt@ietf.org>
Cc: Kir= ill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
<= br>
Hi, for several years, Facebook has been using its own video ingest = protocol over QUIC from our apps to our infra.=C2=A0 While we=E2=80=99ve sp= oken about it before, we just now published a draft documenting how it work= s:=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/dr= aft-kpugin-rush-00.html.

The protocol leverages the advantages of QUIC transport, and features a par= tially reliable mode using only QUIC v1 RST_STREAM.

We welcome your feedback

Thanks

-Alan Frindell





--0000000000007d119205c7031772-- From nobody Sun Jul 18 00:41:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E42933A12D1 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 00:41:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=sGXBX0G0; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Uc82Gs7n Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q9G_L7KPZj4z for ; 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Sun, 18 Jul 2021 03:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============7087811368392955860==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: mops@ietf.org Message-Id: <20210718074059.641E83A12D0@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 00:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] Weekly github digest (MOPS Activity Summary) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:41:05 -0000 --===============7087811368392955860== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Events without label "editorial" Issues ------ * ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+0/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC6) 2 issues received 6 new comments: - #81 Considerations on cloud-based encoding, packaging and origin workfl= ows (5 by SpencerDawkins, gitnnelg, squarooticus) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues= /81=20 - #26 historical charts of usage patterns with references (1 by GrumpyOld= Troll) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues= /26 [wontfix]=20 2 issues closed: - Update to caching systems https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mo= ps-streaming-opcons/issues/53=20 - Refactoring Adaptive Segmented Delivery subsections to focus on reasons= why signals are lower or higher than they should be https://github.com/iet= f-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues/67=20 Pull requests ------------- * ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+4/-3/=F0=9F=92=AC5) 4 pull requests submitted: - mstock's "add section on ads" (fresh PR) (by englishm-ietf) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8= 5=20 - Removed TBDs from text, captured them in #26 comment (by GrumpyOldTroll) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8= 4=20 - attempted fix for #53 (caching update about challenges from low laten= =E2=80=A6 (by GrumpyOldTroll) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8= 3=20 - attempted fix for #67 (by GrumpyOldTroll) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8= 2=20 3 pull requests received 5 new comments: - #85 mstock's "add section on ads" (fresh PR) (1 by SpencerDawkins) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8= 5=20 - #83 attempted fix for #53 (caching update about challenges from low lat= en=E2=80=A6 (2 by GrumpyOldTroll, SpencerDawkins) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8= 3=20 - #82 attempted fix for #67 (2 by GrumpyOldTroll, SpencerDawkins) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8= 2=20 3 pull requests merged: - Removed TBDs from text, captured them in #26 comment https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8= 4=20 - attempted fix for #53 (caching update about challenges from low laten= =E2=80=A6 https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8= 3=20 - attempted fix for #67 https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8= 2=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons --===============7087811368392955860== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (MOPS Activity Summary)

Sunday July 18, 2021

Events without label "editorial"

Issues

ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+0/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC6)

2 issues received 6 new comments:

2 issues closed:

Pull requests

ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+4/-3/=F0=9F=92=AC5)

4 pull requests submitted:

3 pull requests received 5 new comments:

3 pull requests merged:

Repositories tracked by this digest:

--===============7087811368392955860==-- From nobody Fri Jul 23 15:25:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 289DD3A1F7A for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:25:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=thinkingcat.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kxxfAJccUpg7 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from buffalo.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (buffalo.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FB7D3A1F79 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:25:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD07681B32; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:25:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a75.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-18-103.trex-nlb.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.18.103]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 7FA9B681B0C; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:25:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a75.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.18.103 (trex/6.3.3); Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:25:50 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Tank-Cure: 35491517295a5d6c_1627079150279_1914081999 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1627079150279:3204912556 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1627079150279 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a75.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a75.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C858C381; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:25:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=thinkingcat.com; h=from:to :subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=thinkingcat.com; bh=g5jhR1gomnY45X 8CATV6beiN9Ks=; b=D1fQzb1jwFwx4CbuG7RKter2HvH/g6IZR343Fl7UeTPD/H wluJYo8c1N6If3OFgz/hCllPlvsSQ1WtZXZ/6l2fY/oqI3hyz0HclhWaYDLspr5m 0g+yF+t015kM66eddJuXH49SxOQfFzzDxvT5YbKrozW+vdDzQkD9cIGvOBulc= Received: from [192.168.1.57] (vtelinet-216-66-102-83.vermontel.net [216.66.102.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ldaigle@thinkingcat.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a75.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A729E8C380; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:25:47 -0700 (PDT) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a75 From: "Leslie Daigle" To: "MOPS Working Group" Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 18:25:20 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5673) Message-ID: <0DD43FE2-F50D-4D06-BAFA-D1157048DBC0@thinkingcat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_77CDBB8F-C659-458B-AD89-24E727701216_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] "See" you next week! X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 22:25:57 -0000 --=_MailMate_77CDBB8F-C659-458B-AD89-24E727701216_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, A reminder that we are meeting on Tuesday, at noon PDT=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/session/28938.ics We have an agenda: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-111-mops/ ,=20 which will be updated with final details on Monday: MOPS IETF 111 Virtual Agenda July 27, 2021 Admin [5 min] Note well Agenda bash Jabber scribe Minutes taker (https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-111-mops#) Industry News/Experiences [30 min] Streaming Video Alliance (SVA) 5G paper (Brian Stevenson) [duration=20 TBD] WG Docs [20 min] Ops Cons (Jake Holland) [10 min] Media Operations Use Case for an Augmented Reality Application on=20 Edge Computing Infrastructure (Renan Krishna) [10 min] Related IETF work [20 min] Packet Difference Significance for Media Scalability (Lijun Dong)=20 [10 min] MOPS onwards [15min] Milestones =E2=80=94 revisit and review (see mailing list) AoB [5min] Leslie. --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Leslie Daigle Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises ldaigle@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- --=_MailMate_77CDBB8F-C659-458B-AD89-24E727701216_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

A reminder that we are meeting on Tuesday, at noon PDT https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/session/2893= 8.ics

We have an agenda: https://datatracker.ietf= =2Eorg/doc/agenda-111-mops/ , which will be updated with final detail= s on Monday:

MOPS IETF 111 Virtual Agenda

July 27, 2021
Admin [5 min]

Note well
Agenda bash
Jabber scribe
Minutes taker (https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-111-mops#)

Industry News/Experiences [30 min]

Streaming Video A=
lliance (SVA) 5G paper (Brian Stevenson) [duration TBD]

WG Docs [20 min]

Ops Cons (Jake Ho=
lland) [10 min]
Media Operations Use Case for an Augmented Reality Application on Edge Co=
mputing Infrastructure (Renan Krishna) [10 min]

Related IETF work [20 min]

Packet Difference=
 Significance for Media Scalability (Lijun Dong) [10 min]

MOPS onwards [15min]

Milestones =E2=80=
=94 revisit and review (see mailing list)

AoB [5min]

Leslie.

--


Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

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Sun, 25 Jul 2021 03:34:13 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============3578963080191963771==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: mops@ietf.org Message-Id: <20210725075059.64D7E3A1AF5@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 00:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] Weekly github digest (MOPS Activity Summary) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 07:51:04 -0000 --===============3578963080191963771== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Events without label "editorial" Issues ------ * ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+0/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC4) 2 issues received 4 new comments: - #81 Considerations on cloud-based encoding, packaging and origin workfl= ows (2 by SpencerDawkins, acbegen) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues= /81=20 - #14 Citations for existing industry standard terminology (2 by SpencerD= awkins, acbegen) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/issues= /14=20 Pull requests ------------- * ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+0/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC4) 1 pull requests received 4 new comments: - #85 mstock's "add section on ads" (fresh PR) (4 by GrumpyOldTroll, Spen= cerDawkins, englishm-ietf) https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons/pull/8= 5=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons --===============3578963080191963771== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (MOPS Activity Summary)

Sunday July 25, 2021

Events without label "editorial"

Issues

ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+0/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC4)

2 issues received 4 new comments:

Pull requests

ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+0/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC4)

1 pull requests received 4 new comments:

Repositories tracked by this digest:

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Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:53:32 +0000 From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" To: Leslie Daigle , MOPS Working Group Thread-Topic: [Mops] "See" you next week! 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7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: mops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.35.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mops@ietf.org Message-ID: <162748425684.14189.8376462442303182480@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 07:57:36 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mops-ar-use-case-02.txt X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:57:37 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Media OPerationS WG of the IETF. Title : Media Operations Use Case for an Augmented Reality Application on Edge Computing Infrastructure Authors : Renan Krishna Akbar Rahman Filename : draft-ietf-mops-ar-use-case-02.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2021-07-28 Abstract: A use case describing transmission of an application on the Internet that has several unique characteristics of Augmented Reality (AR) applications is presented for the consideration of the Media Operations (MOPS) Working Group. One key requirement identified is that the Adaptive-Bit-Rate (ABR) algorithms' current usage of policies based on heuristics and models is inadequate for AR applications running on the Edge Computing infrastructure. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mops-ar-use-case/ There is also an htmlized version available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mops-ar-use-case-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mops-ar-use-case-02 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jul 28 08:42:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9AD3A0878; Wed, 28 Jul 2021 08:42:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, 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h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WJ+AmmwfFcqxp89V2EKavEYYasF5MJfLKnvWHz7SvvI=; b=SS94iwXi+0ZRGGvyrL976YK0T4zOdrKprtUWpIMrz7Zfwtl6H9tsYTdp2q4k0fNPqd axt0AmQevm4zn6eNuz7Q+g0XVmVDPBPaXlcENPW/FQgn+yVAyPgubd5VkDHzkGnLCGNd Jhn4ZaLaFo166l3aZ+xr8O2jf/0KBAW2vahhR1kKJY4WSocbR0aSJFsGDLHcuNT3Z2vt 1kHE4vl5gwBmOshOqYplztNBsMQUlZJ0+811eSkQoQljSf667f0909KEf125rmQSP9us EIwdKnzixHe4hmyOE1LFwPfOHjqHrZsGiBBcfHYHlEUmlUNmt8J8mVDh4ZkkbRKlYqAA sIEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531MN2goEVWpsMaHjExXH3+sP7L84SFWyYs0cJ2yQxShjL878Hdm m8i7YSzbEOfQm/w3ijv9ZHeoqz2BcslVuVLo+cBePw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx20dYe8BXt8ctE/G0XHIQnHEEjXL8GakteBwOgowyoSObNIL6qKuDmZxIR2uZ0kuXStXsXwvo2qmwQHi85SQk= X-Received: by 2002:a25:f503:: with SMTP id a3mr1596820ybe.501.1627501348621; Wed, 28 Jul 2021 12:42:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7C8E8AF7-02FA-4AD5-9A53-3A7539758C55@fb.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ian Swett Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 15:41:59 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Das, Dibakar" Cc: Alan Frindell , "quic@ietf.org" , "mops@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c1e03505c8342fc7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 19:42:36 -0000 --000000000000c1e03505c8342fc7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes. Client wifi stacks sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency), so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, it could be fairly widely applicable. That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is? Would we need something visible to a network or can we get away with a socket option that propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when possible? Ian On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar wrote: > Hi Kirill, Alan, > > > > I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this side > meeting either. > > > > But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based > protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver > frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower > layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achieve > its full performance gains at least in some congested network scenarios. > Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was > wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the > QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better > decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain > streams. > > > > I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions. > > > > Regards, > > Dibakar > > > > > > > > *From:* QUIC *On Behalf Of *Alan Frindell > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM > *To:* avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG ; mops@ietf.org > *Cc:* Kirill Pugin > *Subject:* Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 > 18:00 UTC > > > > Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific > > > > Link to draft agenda and video conference details: > https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2021.07.03.md > > > > -Alan > --000000000000c1e03505c8342fc7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I can't answer for Alan, but my= belief is yes.=C2=A0 Client wifi stacks sometimes also do some reordering(= and introduce the corresponding latency), so if we could design an indicati= on that in-order delivery has no value, it could be fairly widely applicabl= e.

That being said, I don't know what the righ= t mechanism is?=C2=A0 Would=C2=A0we need something visible to a network or = can we get away with a socket option that propagates to the local 5G networ= k or Wifi firmware when possible?

Ian
<= br>

Hi Kirill, Alan, <= /u>

=C2=A0<= /span>

I could not attend th= e call this week and wont be able to attend this side meeting either.

=C2=A0<= /span>

But I had a general q= uestion about the performance of all such QUIC based protocols over wireles= s. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver frames in-order which sort= of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol = to achieve its full performance gains at least in some congested network sc= enarios. Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I = was wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol th= at would allow lower layers to make better decision about whether to enable= /disable in-order delivery for certain streams.

=C2=A0<= /span>

I apologize in advanc= e if this is not the right venue to ask questions.

=C2=A0<= /span>

Regards,

Dibakar=

=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0<= /span>

From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Alan Frindell
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM
To: avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; Q= UIC WG <quic@ietf.org= >; mops@ietf.org<= /a>
Cc: Kirill Pugin <
ikir@fb.com>
Subject: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 1= 8:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Video Ingest over QUI= C Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific

=C2=A0<= /span>

Link to draft agenda = and video conference details: https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.202= 1.07.03.md

=C2=A0<= /span>

-Alan

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v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=g2UoOR8bShPk6gEM4S9wKTpfuRLOO+YM+Z1XeGWY4/s=; b=boivNFDbjtl1fmbaeI4BwCZGnD60/cL6/Q8wF7BTGeBZTp5XWgjqMQmGM5NjaPO62P Etrrfs0TCMPV+KOfM+83r+Ee5GxxXOI+fGnLGhkbOrd3FlLYAdML0cFS/sfD8gE3MVFZ eIYMdba/GM4Av1gH0neiLo2cBOZHGtx2aFus72ne3WwKCegUmKKBF65DTTZBqTR6Hut8 iFDErdLQ7p5G5bC078Qw5Q7r0Rc0QmlC0kPweGv6tKtUqUsUeCIrLTgeY9nbKEkfMqWg IgM41H/+SRkEDIiLMPd8AALmp3XwNaA3VnR9iq6kJkg77UtIHKX/0twouccFj4cC9do3 pyOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=g2UoOR8bShPk6gEM4S9wKTpfuRLOO+YM+Z1XeGWY4/s=; b=tBw7C/C+6FEizIxvcOnbjly4RkkfIiArfzdK5TMbmFHB7setQx8L+vyLfdiO2NX4qG JwTKZfLjox4cB8y0KuL46VD9v8NeiI52/yslSFVKuV8FLApqXy0BASA2gC3IzCGL+E3H 746VO6SxMWpwKniLkugUisJPfZ1dZJP/bHGxWVhxbRpYPwre4kry0O9hujLuseq43Gxn J5zEbxYcfLbLi96BvJxsa42i2Rgsaml3PyXP2Idu1WNII+kRRWDkGyYfRXgnQ+2NQTi/ /mHRYYkKbMg0X6uiH1Dr+XOOj9LsxOdIeTNMLgWpAf7Gzlj7V6XbgJpsmXTnpUTt1adh DOXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533jaGMp0pODbcjBoExqdJb1DOZayE7xZ+ki6W73rl447jbJTYog aXypaUcmWxidRlVRHNTZ4+ULvmmT9R3jMjMgBoQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJze8PZkaHclQLLG7Tdhf6p+r4v3I2ThtxY48Ykdvdtyd3i+VurDyb5if/7xz/7vcfs+HubHe7SABSuWL5VY5yc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4409:: with SMTP id s9mr11499634pjg.100.1627506955738; Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:15:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7C8E8AF7-02FA-4AD5-9A53-3A7539758C55@fb.com> In-Reply-To: From: David Schinazi Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:15:44 -0700 Message-ID: To: Roberto Peon Cc: Ian Swett , "Das, Dibakar" , Alan Frindell , "quic@ietf.org" , "mops@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f7617b05c8357d0a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 21:16:03 -0000 --000000000000f7617b05c8357d0a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all traffic, be it TCP QUIC or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to reorder packets was a reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long time ago that have been fixed in systems that care about performance. In today's world, L2 is better off delivering any and all packets in the order they arrive instead of introducing buffer bloat. David On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon wrote: > The ideal would be to have public bits that were intended to be > interpreted by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 could > adapted appropriately without reinventing the wheel. > It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry ab= out=E2=80=94it is > also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80=9D. > > Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the > application about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that > this dovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw. > > A couple potentially interesting params are: > > A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block > Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t= retry bit=E2=80=9D, but > that is obviously not as expressive as throw out packet older than X > microseconds) > > > -=3DR > > > > *From: *QUIC on behalf of Ian Swett 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Date: *Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM > *To: *"Das, Dibakar" > *Cc: *Alan Frindell , "quic@ietf.org" < > quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin > > *Subject: *Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 > 18:00 UTC > > > > Hi, > > > > I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes. Client wifi stacks > sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency= ), > so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, = it > could be fairly widely applicable. > > > > That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is? Would we need > something visible to a network or can we get away with a socket option th= at > propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when possible? > > > > Ian > > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar > wrote: > > Hi Kirill, Alan, > > > > I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this sid= e > meeting either. > > > > But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based > protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver > frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower > layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achie= ve > its full performance gains at least in some congested network scenarios. > Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was > wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the > QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better > decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain > streams. > > > > I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions. > > > > Regards, > > Dibakar > > > > > > > > *From:* QUIC *On Behalf Of *Alan Frindell > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM > *To:* avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG ; mops@ietf.org > *Cc:* Kirill Pugin > *Subject:* Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 > 18:00 UTC > > > > Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific > > > > Link to draft agenda and video conference details: > https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2= 021.07.03.md > > > > -Alan > > --000000000000f7617b05c8357d0a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all traff= ic, be it TCP QUIC or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to reord= er packets was a reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long time ag= o that have been fixed in systems that care about performance. In today'= ;s world, L2 is better off delivering any and all packets in the order they= arrive instead of introducing buffer bloat.

David
=

= On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon <fenix=3D40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

The ideal would be to have public bits that were int= ended to be interpreted by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 = could adapted appropriately without reinventing the wheel.
It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry abou= t=E2=80=94it is also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80= =9D.

Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the appli= cation about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that this d= ovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw.

A couple potentially interesting params are:

=C2=A0 A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block <= br> =C2=A0=C2=A0Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon= =E2=80=99t retry bit=E2=80=9D, but that is obviously not as expressive as t= hrow out packet older than X microseconds)

=C2=A0
-=3DR

=C2=A0

From: = QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org>= ; on behalf of Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM
To: "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>
Cc: Alan Frindell <afrind=3D40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" &l= t;mops@ietf.org>,= Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.= com>
Subject: Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/= 30 18:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.= =C2=A0 Client wifi stacks sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce t= he corresponding latency), so if we could design an indication that in-orde= r delivery has no value, it could be fairly widely applicable.

=C2=A0

That being said, I don't know what the right mec= hanism is?=C2=A0 Would=C2=A0we need something visible to a network or can w= e get away with a socket option that propagates to the local 5G network or = Wifi firmware when possible?

=C2=A0

Ian

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.c= om> wrote:

Hi Kirill, Alan,

=C2=A0

I could not attend the call this week and wont be ab= le to attend this side meeting either.

=C2=A0

But I had a general question about the performance o= f all such QUIC based protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI M= AC layers deliver frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower layers. I would expect this to in turn p= revent the QUIC protocol to achieve its full performance gains at least in = some congested network scenarios. Considering that in-order delivery is mad= e optional in 5G PDCP, I was wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the QUIC (or R= USH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better decision about= whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain streams.

=C2=A0

I apologize in advance if this is not the right venu= e to ask questions.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Dibakar

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Alan Frindell
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM
To: avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; mops@ietf.org
Cc: Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Subject: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 1= 8:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:0= 0 UTC / 11 Pacific

=C2=A0

Link to draft agenda and video conference details: https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.202= 1.07.03.md

=C2=A0

-Alan

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X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=krose.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3BcpynWiaWVP for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2021 15:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x430.google.com (mail-wr1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18F6E3A0400 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2021 15:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x430.google.com with SMTP id l18so4366756wrv.5 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2021 15:42:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=krose.org; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oa+eIznz6ZOqDGxVAhmpgkim4sCEaOIqP54t0HBmTkM=; b=T2/ZI4wjIIoHBiWmgVD1W6cbiiSHYfwAOcCk0pUt9AhXUhoxi9SGBkawa9Lv8eQ7g8 OL/ZDLDd09QSUUej1SK/jWO3HSqGmXW0QAoyPisq9rN3zTwtNxL/E28hXhSBtEW5b1Dt gWPO63y3DuaZyASNYe71G/fAR/RoknADQzPMY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oa+eIznz6ZOqDGxVAhmpgkim4sCEaOIqP54t0HBmTkM=; b=k0oBw+2c8ZFaRdJwAlsdpWhQNUvND64IzeNbRNIgumNMq3qP4HU6nYmYk3efsKpKwA kZWuuE1RFBpyvSfhB0/86mEFvhGbM9hPhpEaU6YXJ3v0XytXzZDCYmW31hXzjqAGO3kv SZNgy3dmTfom5IDyhYmuhRRkR+wXVX3BGTGEzp5h22DF149MFDPAQ/66w+o9Gte8RuV/ k8TnTpldo0fhxrEPV86FdYpKCEqL6BAxrymOraoboAbSqtxpMqXzjnjCLBfkaiJaFrRx iBn679Z8RiqZhpp1YAk1YERfsx7i17KGEzcQfiMnBbruj8l94eEHaAB3nYy/tZUKYSiQ hn8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533jk2FfM69EzwfzCEjh/pNWFHKOL9zOxYMjg1WXCern4L1ZWuxI T8MfaYaH1C1tf0+gXeRCvoYrfyLiItD+AsmaegLRsAJwDvhEGg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzs9uzCXgMBPZBWjrCxzFY3mIbCSl0TT2cdkBf7iAUkOZ36NTyTceTzECm22hhj7gAW9ta8+x547LY5iznSN9k= X-Received: by 2002:adf:ef0d:: with SMTP id e13mr1543275wro.390.1627512141748; Wed, 28 Jul 2021 15:42:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Kyle Rose Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 18:42:11 -0400 Message-ID: To: mops@ietf.org Cc: Leslie Daigle Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000013afd505c836b37a" Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] Draft minutes posted X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 22:42:38 -0000 --00000000000013afd505c836b37a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" We've posted the draft minutes to the data tracker. Please take a look and send any corrections or clarifications to the chairs before the deadline (August 20). https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/materials/minutes-111-mops-00 Thanks to Jake and Spencer for taking minutes! Kyle (+Leslie) --00000000000013afd505c836b37a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We&= #39;ve posted the draft minutes to the data tracker. Please take a look and= send any corrections or clarifications to the chairs before the deadline (= August 20).
=

Thanks to Jake and Spencer for= taking minutes!

Kyle (+L= eslie)

--00000000000013afd505c836b37a-- From nobody Wed Jul 28 16:53:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31D13A0C18; Wed, 28 Jul 2021 16:53:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S2kciV89m7cm; Wed, 28 Jul 2021 16:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x936.google.com (mail-ua1-x936.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::936]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94E633A0C0C; Wed, 28 Jul 2021 16:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x936.google.com with SMTP id t26so1792415uao.12; Wed, 28 Jul 2021 16:53:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uycKlBqPPL1IN1Euz+7QfO4LRy54+T4SYmxA3Yq6oSw=; b=mVNK9IdvCaSIk3f37FXurbLoLBR2P5qkyQrV3IljKCCnXnGzUJXbK/dey/Y8XQFS7u QgaAP2Y+XZa/7NiIC+Fxgmc3ysA9pDdUoxUB9iNRj+yrvXUrmZa9y+/RRBJI4TaOLKB8 qQogoZp/KiBNvrhX5y5WX+8Xp63GMZHI8TjkE8Q+dQnQ+pUdh6qvOuChnoLWtZ/Dgytl eq5Rfg0n14kockqm8mdPBOrW1Di9CAXA1PYwvP/bm2dxa7Kg5FJHfANhVkSi/dQqSyAj 9A5StmYBlqIwT4wEt6zYWeICZARHyoV83E7Rqr+TOA4ohOuCxeOFpc5oIG8BFpJd5jKt AD5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uycKlBqPPL1IN1Euz+7QfO4LRy54+T4SYmxA3Yq6oSw=; b=qTgn6BhOzwUEm/5ondajXZYfjmotKPDM8o9nRPj6vTbdJap1+1jWH7E1pCfzjcgtU4 s8lKkXgeC1fJf6n0sP22fULq4nB4knco5mckAeOqbvcxSom3B2jQSquqz4xaFXfq+uJM jgHaCS4D5Eyevgczx16nljQmg+/4vAdiuAHuDnQRzoEuOqerR8F8eD0+OloXVqATf6Mp r7jlI/heURwS1PX/xwRu/UlPCVlG85j8Clq/IplWU3JtbN3HLpXTFPt9kzSb1NI8cEbo jU5VUq5uCmDw1FVuFE9jVn78Za25XiGBN7wv4hbb+oa2VvqxNhBy+KtzmqapAS3AffpW LxKQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532QFl2ggeWHKdoNXoYg2IP2pnOweC4rhp/U6g+6o4E4s/ScKClt dGbYQxlD/Gimp6B8KrBk242LQ9xqfG+xqAlrloA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz41E1mz27SvvulFQBavjtWgZtcuIBeJHGr73Vm/RNcoDgM2mdSqeQGL7tnaiMDihw+hxIyAirSuEByb/V1A7I= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:7299:: with SMTP id w25mr2559238uao.45.1627516407667; Wed, 28 Jul 2021 16:53:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7C8E8AF7-02FA-4AD5-9A53-3A7539758C55@fb.com> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 18:53:01 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Das, Dibakar" Cc: Ian Swett , Alan Frindell , "quic@ietf.org" , "mops@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin , "MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN" , tsvwg-chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000585f5605c837b1d6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 23:53:35 -0000 --000000000000585f5605c837b1d6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Dibakar, I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions. This is only my opinion, but this is a fine venue to ask questions. But it may not be a good venue to resolve issues. Please take what follows as suggestions. There are people who understand some of the ins and outs of (for instance) 5G RAN, but honestly, there aren't a lot of them, so I'd start with 3GPP. If this was a concern I had, the first place I'd stop is with Lionel Morand (lionel.morand@orange.com), the 3GPP liaison to the IETF, to share this concern. Lionel tends to be the person who sets agendas for the 3GPP-IETF coordination team. IETF participants are likely to say "if it hurts (performance) when you do that, you probably should stop doing that". In my opinion, that's because those participants don't want to special-case their protocols (especially transport-level protocols) to deal with L2 characteristics that won't be true for all underlying networking technologies. The PILC working group, concluded about 20 years ago, put together a nuanced discussion about L2 retransmissions in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3819#section-8.1. If anyone in the IETF thought that reasoning needed to be updated, I'd start with the TSVWG chairs, at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org - I believe this would be in scope for them, and Gorry Fairhurst, one of the RFC 3819 co-authors, is also a TSVWG chair, so that would jumpstart things. The current TSV ADs might have opinions about what should happen, but the TSVWG co-chairs can involve them if they need to be involved. I've taken the liberty of copying Lionel and the TSVWG chairs, so if you do reach out to them, they'll know what you're talking about. I hope this is helpful, and good luck on helping IETF and 3GPP Do The Right Thing. I know that's important. If I can explain any of this further, please email me privately, just to minimize the hit on people's inboxes. Best, Spencer (full disclosure: I co-chaired PILC with Aaron Falk) On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:17 PM Das, Dibakar wrote: > Hi Ian, > > > > Thanks for the response. > > > > I think having some signaling visible to the network layer could be useful > for the transmitter in the wireless link (say, an AP) as it can take this > information into account while preparing the packets. It can even be used > in current WiFi (i.e., with in-order delivery) to optimize its scheduling > for that stream for example, it can send a Ctrl frame soon to clear holes > in the reorder buffer at the recipient. > > > > Regards, > > Dibakar > > > > > > *From:* Ian Swett > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 12:42 PM > *To:* Das, Dibakar > *Cc:* Alan Frindell ; quic@ietf.org; > mops@ietf.org; Kirill Pugin > *Subject:* Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 > 18:00 UTC > > > > Hi, > > > > I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes. Client wifi stacks > sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency), > so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, it > could be fairly widely applicable. > > > > That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is? Would we need > something visible to a network or can we get away with a socket option that > propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when possible? > > > > Ian > > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar > wrote: > > Hi Kirill, Alan, > > > > I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this side > meeting either. > > > > But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based > protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver > frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower > layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achieve > its full performance gains at least in some congested network scenarios. > Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was > wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the > QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better > decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain > streams. > > > > I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions. > > > > Regards, > > Dibakar > > > > > > > > *From:* QUIC *On Behalf Of *Alan Frindell > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM > *To:* avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG ; mops@ietf.org > *Cc:* Kirill Pugin > *Subject:* Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 > 18:00 UTC > > > > Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific > > > > Link to draft agenda and video conference details: > https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2021.07.03.md > > > > -Alan > > -- > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops > --000000000000585f5605c837b1d6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Dibakar,

I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask= questions.

This is only my opinion, b= ut this is a fine venue=C2=A0to ask questions. But it may not be a good ven= ue to resolve issues. Please take what follows as suggestions.=C2=A0
<= div>
There are people who understand some of the ins and outs= of (for instance) 5G RAN, but honestly, there aren't a lot of them, so= =C2=A0I'd start with 3GPP.

If this was a conce= rn I had, the first place I'd stop is with Lionel Morand (lionel.morand@orange.com), the 3GPP liai= son to the IETF, to share this concern. Lionel tends to be the person who s= ets agendas for the 3GPP-IETF coordination=C2=A0team.=C2=A0

<= /div>
IETF participants are likely to say "if it hurts (performanc= e) when you do that, you probably should stop doing that". In my opini= on, that's because those participants don't want to special-case th= eir protocols (especially transport-level protocols) to deal with L2 charac= teristics that won't be true for all underlying networking technologies= .=C2=A0

The PILC working group, concluded about 20= years ago, put together a nuanced discussion about L2 retransmissions in= =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3819#section-8.1. If anyone i= n the IETF thought that reasoning needed to be updated, I'd start with = the TSVWG chairs, at=C2=A0tsvwg-ch= airs@ietf.org - I believe this would be in scope for them, and Gorry Fa= irhurst, one of the RFC 3819 co-authors, is also a TSVWG chair, so that wou= ld jumpstart things.=C2=A0

The current TSV ADs mig= ht have opinions about what should happen, but the TSVWG co-chairs can invo= lve them if they need to be involved.=C2=A0

I'= ve taken the liberty of copying Lionel and the TSVWG chairs, so if you do r= each out to them, they'll know what you're talking about.=C2=A0

I hope this is helpful, and good luck on helping IETF= and 3GPP Do The Right Thing. I know that's important.=C2=A0
=
If I can explain any of this further, please email me privat= ely, just to minimize the hit on people's inboxes.=C2=A0

=
Best,

Spencer (full disclosure: I co-ch= aired PILC with Aaron Falk)

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:17 PM Das, Dibakar <= ;dibakar.das@int= el.com> wrote:

Hi Ian,

=C2=A0

Thanks for the response.

=C2=A0

I think having some signaling visible to the network= layer could be useful for the transmitter in the wireless link (say, an AP= ) as it can take this information into account while preparing the packets.= It can even be used in current WiFi (i.e., with in-order delivery) to optimize its scheduling for that stream = for example, it can send a Ctrl frame soon to clear holes in the reorder bu= ffer at the recipient.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Dibakar

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 12:42 PM
To: Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>
Cc: Alan Frindell <afrind=3D40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; quic@ietf.org; mops@ietf.org; Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Subject: Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/= 30 18:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.= =C2=A0 Client wifi stacks sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce t= he corresponding latency), so if we could design an indication that in-orde= r delivery has no value, it could be fairly widely applicable.

=C2=A0

That being said, I don't know what the right mec= hanism is?=C2=A0 Would=C2=A0we need something visible to a network or can w= e get away with a socket option that propagates to the local 5G network or = Wifi firmware when possible?

=C2=A0

Ian

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.c= om> wrote:

Hi Kirill, Alan,

=C2=A0

I could not attend the call this week and wont be ab= le to attend this side meeting either.

=C2=A0

But I had a general question about the performance o= f all such QUIC based protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI M= AC layers deliver frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower layers. I would expect this to in turn p= revent the QUIC protocol to achieve its full performance gains at least in = some congested network scenarios. Considering that in-order delivery is mad= e optional in 5G PDCP, I was wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the QUIC (or R= USH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better decision about= whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain streams.

=C2=A0

I apologize in advance if this is not the right venu= e to ask questions.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Dibakar

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Alan Frindell
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM
To: avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; mops@ietf.org
Cc: Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Subject: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 1= 8:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:0= 0 UTC / 11 Pacific

=C2=A0

Link to draft agenda and video conference details: https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.202= 1.07.03.md

=C2=A0

-Alan

--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops
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15.20.4352.031; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 00:51:04 +0000 From: "Das, Dibakar" To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF CC: Ian Swett , Alan Frindell , "quic@ietf.org" , "mops@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin , "MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN" , tsvwg-chairs Thread-Topic: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC Thread-Index: AQHXg8cbuPEdfwjLOEm7z5CETlv+eKtYvX/AgAAMNYCAAAR74IAAQaiAgAAObxA= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 00:51:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7C8E8AF7-02FA-4AD5-9A53-3A7539758C55@fb.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-reaction: no-action dlp-version: 11.5.1.3 authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=intel.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 961795b6-a082-40ff-af64-08d9522af1d4 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MW3PR11MB4700: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: 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ESMTPS id BDC913A258F; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 08:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe33.google.com with SMTP id e4so3675209vsr.13; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 08:09:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=h1Rvy/q/1NVK7KO27NxzcgWG9ihHD1ri4ydIOYKSw7E=; b=oFKYHTF9wk0lX3z8DKbbZD8YRD1jw0RN+Tyg15H9dWQ3fNBu+iTAQJ21V3aVFHURj2 bSh8nD33VVG7Ax1QI4FoRTszLbjCnMlkIWqDxJV9z7tMHjAUh81IA0QJjqp4vESTIRiB HrBn0A2V4zlToP74LUvibwAvBM/enIlXg88iLB3mwMCgAZ+r9X1cQLQn+YS32ZCzw2pf KGKYjol9G58DFKrmWrl93MSedSz3F39fpVjZW2mb/473vDJEagflBb1GGb2KjKbkqpv9 c58/x8knfJ/Fa1ivS+ue3CVc1p+0QwkonfMs6K7Pl1td2wNKRofK1LMBzzrjK7vjc42a dH5w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=h1Rvy/q/1NVK7KO27NxzcgWG9ihHD1ri4ydIOYKSw7E=; 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"quic@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin , Dorothy Stanley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008b914805c8447c33" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 15:09:24 -0000 --0000000000008b914805c8447c33 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi again, Dibakar, On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 6:53 AM Zaheduzzaman Sarker < zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi Dibakar, > > > > Thanks for asking the question. > > > > I think Spencer=E2=80=99s suggestion to involve 3GPP-IETF coordination te= am makes > lots of sense here, hence I think you are on right track. > I saw your response about being an IEEE 802 guy, and not a 3GPP guy, but had two thoughts. - If you think this is a problem for IEEE 802, there's also an IEEE 802-IETF coordination team, and they meet regularly to talk about topics from one organization that are likely of interest to the other organization. That's a bit more visible to the community than the 3GPP-I= ETF coordination team, so you can get details here: https://www.iab.org/liaisons/iab-ieee-coordination/. Dorothy Stanley from IEEE 802.11 and Zahed Sarker, one of the TSV ADs, both, participate= in those meetings, so the coordination chain from IEEE 802.11 to the IETF T= SV area is pretty short. (I took the liberty of copying Dorothy on my email= , again, so that she'll be in the loop if you pursue this in IEEE 802.11). - I understand about wanting to start in IEEE 802 where you're active, but I see that you're using an Intel email address, so you might want to also touch base with someone at one of the 15 Intel companies that are listed as members of 3GPP (here ), to see if they're as concerned about this as you are. I do participate i= n 3GPP, so if you have problems figuring out who the actual Intel contacts are, please let me know privately, and I can see who attended recent meetings. As Zahed said, we all wish for a single venue for discussions like this, but maybe "three venues that communicate together well" could be a decent substitute for that? =F0=9F=98=80 Again, best wishes on this. It's an important discussion to have, just like it was in the 1990s, and answers do change, even in the TSV area. Best, Spencer > In my personal opinion, if a signaling helps that would be related to > congestion control, recovery and ack signaling technique in use rather th= an > specific to a particular protocol ( yes, QUIC comes with kind of right > packaging of those techniques but those can be applied to other protocols > as well). There are lot to discuss about it and requires right expertise = ( > I can always wish there is a single venue for that =F0=9F=98=8A). > > > > > > BR > Zahed > > > > On 2021-07-29, 06:51, "QUIC on behalf of Das, Dibakar" < > quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of dibakar.das@intel.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Spencer, > > > > Thank you for the detailed response as this is the sort of guidance I was > looking for. Thank you also for the references. > > > > Since the recommendation is to first raise the concern with layer-2 > liaison, I will do that. However, I should clarify that I work on WiFi > standards and not 3GPP. So, I will discuss the problem a bit more > internally and then bring it up to the 802.11 liaison if needed. > > > > Regards, > > Dibakar > > > > *From:* Spencer Dawkins at IETF > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 4:53 PM > *To:* Das, Dibakar > *Cc:* Ian Swett ; Alan Frindell 40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; quic@ietf.org; mops@ietf.org; Kirill Pugin < > ikir@fb.com>; MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN ; > tsvwg-chairs > *Subject:* Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting > Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC > > > > Hi, Dibakar, > > > > I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions. > > > > This is only my opinion, but this is a fine venue to ask questions. But i= t > may not be a good venue to resolve issues. Please take what follows as > suggestions. > > > > There are people who understand some of the ins and outs of (for instance= ) > 5G RAN, but honestly, there aren't a lot of them, so I'd start with 3GPP. > > > > If this was a concern I had, the first place I'd stop is with Lionel > Morand (lionel.morand@orange.com), the 3GPP liaison to the IETF, to share > this concern. Lionel tends to be the person who sets agendas for the > 3GPP-IETF coordination team. > > > > IETF participants are likely to say "if it hurts (performance) when you d= o > that, you probably should stop doing that". In my opinion, that's because > those participants don't want to special-case their protocols (especially > transport-level protocols) to deal with L2 characteristics that won't be > true for all underlying networking technologies. > > > > The PILC working group, concluded about 20 years ago, put together a > nuanced discussion about L2 retransmissions in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3819#section-8.1. If anyone in > the IETF thought that reasoning needed to be updated, I'd start with the > TSVWG chairs, at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org - I believe this would be in scope > for them, and Gorry Fairhurst, one of the RFC 3819 co-authors, is also a > TSVWG chair, so that would jumpstart things. > > > > The current TSV ADs might have opinions about what should happen, but the > TSVWG co-chairs can involve them if they need to be involved. > > > > I've taken the liberty of copying Lionel and the TSVWG chairs, so if you > do reach out to them, they'll know what you're talking about. > > > > I hope this is helpful, and good luck on helping IETF and 3GPP Do The > Right Thing. I know that's important. > > > > If I can explain any of this further, please email me privately, just to > minimize the hit on people's inboxes. > > > > Best, > > > > Spencer (full disclosure: I co-chaired PILC with Aaron Falk) > > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:17 PM Das, Dibakar > wrote: > > Hi Ian, > > > > Thanks for the response. > > > > I think having some signaling visible to the network layer could be usefu= l > for the transmitter in the wireless link (say, an AP) as it can take this > information into account while preparing the packets. It can even be used > in current WiFi (i.e., with in-order delivery) to optimize its scheduling > for that stream for example, it can send a Ctrl frame soon to clear holes > in the reorder buffer at the recipient. > > > > Regards, > > Dibakar > > > > > > *From:* Ian Swett > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 12:42 PM > *To:* Das, Dibakar > *Cc:* Alan Frindell ; quic@ietf.org; > mops@ietf.org; Kirill Pugin > *Subject:* Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 > 18:00 UTC > > > > Hi, > > > > I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes. Client wifi stacks > sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency= ), > so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, = it > could be fairly widely applicable. > > > > That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is? Would we need > something visible to a network or can we get away with a socket option th= at > propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when possible? > > > > Ian > > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar > wrote: > > Hi Kirill, Alan, > > > > I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this sid= e > meeting either. > > > > But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based > protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver > frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower > layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achie= ve > its full performance gains at least in some congested network scenarios. > Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was > wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the > QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better > decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain > streams. > > > > I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions. > > > > Regards, > > Dibakar > > > > > > > > *From:* QUIC *On Behalf Of *Alan Frindell > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM > *To:* avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG ; mops@ietf.org > *Cc:* Kirill Pugin > *Subject:* Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 > 18:00 UTC > > > > Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific > > > > Link to draft agenda and video conference details: > https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2= 021.07.03.md > > > > > -Alan > > -- > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops > > --0000000000008b914805c8447c33 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi again, Dibakar,

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at= 6:53 AM Zaheduzzaman Sarker <zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com> wrote:=

Hi = Dibakar,

= =C2=A0

= Thanks for asking the question.

= =C2=A0

= I think Spencer=E2=80=99s suggestion to involve 3GPP-IETF coordination team= makes lots of sense here, hence I think you are on right track.

=

I saw your response about bein= g an IEEE 802 guy, and not a 3GPP guy, but had two thoughts.
    =
  • If you think this is a problem for IEEE 802, there's also an IEEE 8= 02-IETF coordination team, and they meet regularly to talk about topics fro= m one organization that are likely of interest to the other organization. T= hat's a bit more visible to the community than the 3GPP-IETF coordinati= on team, so you can get details here:=C2=A0https://www.iab.org/liais= ons/iab-ieee-coordination/. Dorothy Stanley from IEEE 802.11 and Zahed = Sarker,=C2=A0one of the=C2=A0TSV ADs,=C2=A0both, participate in those meeti= ngs, so the coordination chain from IEEE 802.11 to the IETF TSV area is pre= tty short. (I took the liberty of copying Dorothy on my email, again, so th= at she'll be in the loop if you pursue this in IEEE 802.11).=C2=A0
  • =
  • I understand about wanting to start in IEEE 802 where you're active= , but I see that you're using an Intel email address, so you might want= to also touch base with someone at one of the 15 Intel companies that are = listed as members of 3GPP (here), to see if they're as c= oncerned about this as you are. I do participate in 3GPP, so if you have pr= oblems figuring out who the actual Intel contacts are, please let me know p= rivately, and I can see who attended recent meetings.=C2=A0
As Zah= ed said, we all wish for a single venue for discussions like this, but mayb= e "three venues that communicate together well" could be a decent= substitute for that?=C2=A0=F0=9F=98=80

Again, best wish= es on this. It's an important discussion to have, just like it was in t= he 1990s, and answers do change, even in the TSV area.

=
Best,

Spencer
=C2=A0

=

= In my personal opinion, if a signaling helps that would be related to conge= stion control, recovery and ack signaling technique in use rather than spec= ific to a particular protocol ( yes, QUIC comes with kind of right packaging of those technique= s but those can be applied to other protocols as well). There are lot to di= scuss about it and requires right expertise ( I can always wish there is a = single venue for that =F0=9F=98=8A).

= =C2=A0

= =C2=A0

= BR
Zahed

=C2=A0

On 2021-07-29, 06:51, &qu= ot;QUIC on behalf of Das, Dibakar" <quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of dibakar.das@inte= l.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

Hi Spencer,=

=C2=A0

Thank you for the detaile= d response as this is the sort of guidance I was looking for. Thank you als= o for the references.

=C2=A0

Since the recommendation = is to first raise the concern with layer-2 liaison, I will do that. However= , I should clarify that I work on WiFi standards and not 3GPP. So, I will d= iscuss the problem a bit more internally and then bring it up to the 802.11 liaison if needed. =C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Regards,

Dibakar

=C2=A0

From: Spencer Dawk= ins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 4:53 PM
To: Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>
Cc: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>; Alan Frindell <afrind=3D40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; quic@ietf.org= ; mops@ietf.org; Kir= ill Pugin <ikir@fb.com<= /a>>; MORAND Lionel IMT/OLN <lionel.morand@orange.com>; tsvwg-chairs <tsvwg-chairs@ietf.= org>
Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr= iday 7/30 18:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Hi, Dibakar,

=C2=A0

I apologize in advance if= this is not the right venue to ask questions.

=C2=A0

This is only my opinion, = but this is a fine venue=C2=A0to ask questions. But it may not be a good ve= nue to resolve issues. Please take what follows as suggestions.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

There are people who unde= rstand some of the ins and outs of (for instance) 5G RAN, but honestly, the= re aren't a lot of them, so=C2=A0I'd start with 3GPP.=

=C2=A0

If this was a concern I h= ad, the first place I'd stop is with Lionel Morand (lionel.morand@orange.com), t= he 3GPP liaison to the IETF, to share this concern. Lionel tends to be the person who sets agendas for the 3GPP-IETF coordination=C2= =A0team.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

IETF participants are lik= ely to say "if it hurts (performance) when you do that, you probably s= hould stop doing that". In my opinion, that's because those partic= ipants don't want to special-case their protocols (especially transport-level protocols) to deal with L2 characteristics tha= t won't be true for all underlying networking technologies.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The PILC working group, c= oncluded about 20 years ago, put together a nuanced discussion about L2 ret= ransmissions in=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc= 3819#section-8.1. If anyone in the IETF thought that reasoning needed to be updated, I'd= start with the TSVWG chairs, at=C2=A0tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org - I believe this would be i= n scope for them, and Gorry Fairhurst, one of the RFC 3819 co-authors, is also a TSVWG chair, so that would jumpstart things.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

The current TSV ADs might= have opinions about what should happen, but the TSVWG co-chairs can involv= e them if they need to be involved.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I've taken the libert= y of copying Lionel and the TSVWG chairs, so if you do reach out to them, t= hey'll know what you're talking about.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I hope this is helpful, a= nd good luck on helping IETF and 3GPP Do The Right Thing. I know that's= important.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

If I can explain any of t= his further, please email me privately, just to minimize the hit on people&= #39;s inboxes.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Best,

=C2=A0

Spencer (full disclosure:= I co-chaired PILC with Aaron Falk)

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3= :17 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com> wrote:

Hi Ian,

=C2=A0

Thanks for the response.

=C2=A0

I think having some signaling visible to the network layer could be useful = for the transmitter in the wireless link (say, an AP) as it can take this i= nformation into account while preparing the packets. It can even be used in= current WiFi (i.e., with in-order delivery) to optimize its scheduling for that stream for example, it can s= end a Ctrl frame soon to clear holes in the reorder buffer at the recipient= .

=C2=A0

Regards,

Dibakar

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 12:42 PM
To: Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>
Cc: Alan Frindell <afrind=3D40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; quic@ietf.org; mops@ietf.org; Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Subject: Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/= 30 18:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.=C2=A0 Client wifi stacks= sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency)= , so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, = it could be fairly widely applicable.

=C2=A0

That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is?=C2=A0 Would= =C2=A0we need something visible to a network or can we get away with a sock= et option that propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when pos= sible?

=C2=A0

Ian

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com> wrote:

Hi Kirill, Alan,

=C2=A0

I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this side = meeting either.

=C2=A0

But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based p= rotocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver frame= s in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower layers= . I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achieve its full performance gains at least i= n some congested network scenarios. Considering that in-order delivery is m= ade optional in 5G PDCP, I was wondering if there could be a value to have = some signaling defined in the QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better decision= about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain streams.

=C2=A0

I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions. =

=C2=A0

Regards,

Dibakar

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Alan Frindell
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM
To: avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; mops@ietf.org
Cc: Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Subject: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 1= 8:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific

=C2=A0

Link to draft agenda and video conference details: https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.202= 1.07.03.md

=C2=A0

-Alan

--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops

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, Roberto Peon , =?UTF-8?Q?Anna_Brunstr=C3=B6m?= , "nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de" , "markus.amend@telekom.de" , Ian Swett , "mops@ietf.org" , "Das, Dibakar" , Alan Frindell , "quic@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a34c3605c837c28d" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:15:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 23:58:26 -0000 --000000000000a34c3605c837c28d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking as an individual, a couple comments inline adding to what Jake is saying. On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:58 PM Holland, Jake wrote: > And yet, we still can see network buffering to maintain packet ordering i= n > new work today, including work specifically targeted at QUIC. > > > > In the =E2=80=9CCCID5=E2=80=9D ANRW talk from Monday=E2=80=99s 2nd sessio= n, a reordering buffer > was mentioned in the transparent proxy for the MP-DCCP tunnel they=E2=80= =99re > wrapping QUIC packets in to get multipath traffic-splitting during > transport within wireless carriers (a proposal coming soon to tsvwg): > > https://irtf.org/anrw/2021/program.html#:~:text=3Dnathalie%20romo%20moren= o > > > > I asked specifically about the reordering buffer at the mic, since this > kind of thing has made me sad before. (There was also a side discussion i= n > the chat.) I got the impression they believe they=E2=80=99re seeing some= benefits > to apps by including this reordering buffer in the network, citing the > wider range of reordering that you get for split-path transport (as > compared to the L2 forwarding case). > I would question whether any application-level benefits could be measured by the network intermediaries. We (i.e., endpoint owners) have a hard enough time surmising application-level improvements from _endpoint_ transport metrics, let alone trying to intuit those as a network intermediary without any application context whatsoever. Making network-level decisions based on limited information is a recipe for "optimizations" that seem good on paper and for a limited set of metrics but are worse in reality. This is exactly the kind of thing that has led to the proliferation of TCP session terminating PEPs, which have overall been a real impedance to making improvements with TCP on the Internet. > > > If there=E2=80=99s endpoint implementations that aren=E2=80=99t doing a g= ood enough job > here and therefore we=E2=80=99re seeing new network deployments that intr= oduce > buffering because their measurements indicate it=E2=80=99s helpful on com= mon use > cases, it could be worthwhile to get this straightened out before it gets > too normalized and we start having networks reintroduce hol-blocking in a > way that hurts some QUIC use cases in the name of helping others. > > > > Although I expect this can and should be solved at the endpoints, if ther= e > is data showing that the ordering solves a real problem with current > implementations, reasonable people can reasonably conclude that network > buffering to maintain packet order is a good idea. > > > (Note: UDP client-side port might be an option for a network-visible > signal that might =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D for many (hopefully most?) = ordering schemes > to avoid buffering for ordering, but it might need some API support and i= t > might lead to some other kinds of ugly nat problems if there=E2=80=99s to= o many > flows doing it...) > > > > +Anna, Nathalie and Markus. Hopefully they can comment on this also. > > > > Best, > > Jake > > > > *From: *David Schinazi > *Date: *Wed,2021-07-28 at 2:16 PM > *To: *Roberto Peon > *Cc: *Ian Swett , "mops@ietf.org" , > "Das, Dibakar" , Alan Frindell , " > quic@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin > *Subject: *Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting > Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC > > > > Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all traffic, be it TCP > QUIC or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to reorder packets w= as > a reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long time ago that have > been fixed in systems that care about performance. In today's world, L2 i= s > better off delivering any and all packets in the order they arrive instea= d > of introducing buffer bloat. > > > > David > > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon 40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > The ideal would be to have public bits that were intended to be > interpreted by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 could > adapted appropriately without reinventing the wheel. > It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry ab= out=E2=80=94it is > also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80=9D. > > Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the > application about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that > this dovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw. > > A couple potentially interesting params are: > > A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block > Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t= retry bit=E2=80=9D, but > that is obviously not as expressive as throw out packet older than X > microseconds) > > > -=3DR > > > > *From: *QUIC on behalf of Ian Swett 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Date: *Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM > *To: *"Das, Dibakar" > *Cc: *Alan Frindell , "quic@ietf.org" < > quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin > > *Subject: *Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 > 18:00 UTC > > > > Hi, > > > > I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes. Client wifi stacks > sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency= ), > so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, = it > could be fairly widely applicable. > > > > That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is? Would we need > something visible to a network or can we get away with a socket option th= at > propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when possible? > > > > Ian > > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar > wrote: > > Hi Kirill, Alan, > > > > I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this sid= e > meeting either. > > > > But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based > protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver > frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower > layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achie= ve > its full performance gains at least in some congested network scenarios. > Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was > wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the > QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better > decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain > streams. > > > > I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions. > > > > Regards, > > Dibakar > > > > > > > > *From:* QUIC *On Behalf Of *Alan Frindell > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM > *To:* avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG ; mops@ietf.org > *Cc:* Kirill Pugin > *Subject:* Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 > 18:00 UTC > > > > Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific > > > > Link to draft agenda and video conference details: > https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2= 021.07.03.md > > > > > -Alan > > --000000000000a34c3605c837c28d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Speaking as an individual, a couple comments inline a= dding to what Jake is saying.

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:58 PM Holland, J= ake <jholland=3D40akamai.= com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

And yet, we still can see network buffering to maint= ain packet ordering in new work today, including work specifically targeted= at QUIC.

=C2=A0

In the =E2=80=9CCCID5=E2=80=9D ANRW talk from Monday= =E2=80=99s 2nd session, a reordering buffer was mentioned in the= transparent proxy for the MP-DCCP tunnel they=E2=80=99re wrapping QUIC pac= kets in to get multipath traffic-splitting during transport within wireless carriers (a proposal coming soon to tsvwg):

https://irtf.org/anrw/= 2021/program.html#:~:text=3Dnathalie%20romo%20moreno

=C2=A0

I asked specifically about the reordering buffer at = the mic, since this kind of thing has made me sad before. (There was also a= side discussion in the chat.)=C2=A0 I got the impression they believe they= =E2=80=99re seeing some benefits to apps by including this reordering buffer in the network, citing the wider range of reorderin= g that you get for split-path transport (as compared to the L2 forwarding c= ase).


I would question whet= her any application-level benefits could be measured by the network interme= diaries. We (i.e., endpoint owners) have a hard enough time surmising appli= cation-level improvements from _endpoint_ transport metrics, let alone tryi= ng to intuit those as a network intermediary without any application contex= t whatsoever. Making network-level decisions based on limited information i= s a recipe for "optimizations" that seem good on paper and for a = limited set of metrics but are worse in reality. This is exactly the kind o= f thing that has led to the proliferation of TCP session terminating PEPs, = which have overall been a real impedance to making improvements with TCP on= the Internet.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

If there=E2=80=99s endpoint implementations that are= n=E2=80=99t doing a good enough job here and therefore we=E2=80=99re seeing= new network deployments that introduce buffering because their measurement= s indicate it=E2=80=99s helpful on common use cases, it could be worthwhile to get this straightened out before it gets too normalized and we start ha= ving networks reintroduce hol-blocking in a way that hurts some QUIC use ca= ses in the name of helping others.

=C2=A0

Although I expect this can and should be solved at t= he endpoints, if there is data showing that the ordering solves a real prob= lem with current implementations, reasonable people can reasonably conclude= that network buffering to maintain packet order is a good idea.

=C2=A0

(Note: UDP client-side port might be an option for a= network-visible signal that might =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D for many (ho= pefully most?) ordering schemes to avoid buffering for ordering, but it mig= ht need some API support and it might lead to some other kinds of ugly nat problems if there=E2=80=99s too many flows doing i= t...)

=C2=A0

+Anna, Nathalie and Markus.=C2=A0 Hopefully they can= comment on this also.

=C2=A0

Best,

Jake

=C2=A0

From: = David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@= gmail.com>
Date: Wed,2021-07-28 at 2:16 PM
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
Cc: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, "Das, Dibakar" <<= a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel= .com>, Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr= iday 7/30 18:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all= traffic, be it TCP QUIC or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to= reorder packets was a reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long t= ime ago that have been fixed in systems that care about performance. In today's world, L2 is better off delive= ring any and all packets in the order they arrive instead of introducing bu= ffer bloat.

=C2=A0

David

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon <fen= ix=3D40fb.com@= dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

The ideal would be to have public bits that were int= ended to be interpreted by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 = could adapted appropriately without reinventing the wheel.
It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry abou= t=E2=80=94it is also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80= =9D.

Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the appli= cation about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that this d= ovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw.

A couple potentially interesting params are:

=C2=A0 A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block
=C2=A0=C2=A0Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon= =E2=80=99t retry bit=E2=80=9D, but that is obviously not as expressive as t= hrow out packet older than X microseconds)

=C2=A0
-=3DR

=C2=A0

From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org>= ; on behalf of Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM
To: "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>
Cc: Alan Frindell <afrind=3D40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org&g= t;, Kirill Pugin <ikir@= fb.com>
Subject: Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/= 30 18:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.= =C2=A0 Client wifi stacks sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce t= he corresponding latency), so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, it could be fairly widely applicable.=

=C2=A0

That being said, I don't know what the right mec= hanism is?=C2=A0 Would=C2=A0we need something visible to a network or can w= e get away with a socket option that propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when possible?

=C2=A0

Ian

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.c= om> wrote:

Hi Kirill, Alan,

=C2=A0

I could not attend the call this week and wont be ab= le to attend this side meeting either.

=C2=A0

But I had a general question about the performance o= f all such QUIC based protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI M= AC layers deliver frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower layers. I would expect this to in turn p= revent the QUIC protocol to achieve its full performance gains at least in = some congested network scenarios. Considering that in-order delivery is mad= e optional in 5G PDCP, I was wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the QUIC (or R= USH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better decision about= whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain streams.

=C2=A0

I apologize in advance if this is not the right venu= e to ask questions.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Dibakar

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Alan Frindell
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM
To: avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; mops@ietf.org
Cc: Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Subject: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 1= 8:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:0= 0 UTC / 11 Pacific

=C2=A0

Link to draft agenda and video conference details: https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.202= 1.07.03.md

=C2=A0

-Alan

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David Schinazi , Roberto Peon , "nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de" , "markus.amend@telekom.de" , Ian Swett , "mops@ietf.org" , "Das, Dibakar" , Alan Frindell , "quic@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin Thread-Topic: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC Thread-Index: AQHXg8cbuPEdfwjLOEm7z5CETlv+eKtYvX/A///qroCAAAu4AIAADnkAgAAcbQCAABDwAIAAKYRA Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 00:30:45 +0000 Message-ID: <863528193a4945c48498d0b5f01c4dd6@kau.se> References: <7C8E8AF7-02FA-4AD5-9A53-3A7539758C55@fb.com> <85EBC68C-0B48-4A45-8F72-7A3C82D28812@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, sv-SE Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.243.27.149] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_863528193a4945c48498d0b5f01c4dd6kause_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:15:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC X-BeenThere: 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bh=cFf6zy+EOmCmPHdfOfydpXdfUcwCghhYkzFWxL8Idng=; b=TTZE/BilUeALwR/pdP/zsRoVWI9S+2eqzr0Gy9FVExjy8dBNyObKDCDv2WVmzRcCPD OYaXS0l8Ldm3I0/DTn6ZNCIVnh7ftXHcBfI+bWwl58xmKZAyAkjlYekvcQlcv1bt8tXl SCtc0U0RniRIZzC7/GtJh196gZqhqoPVjEyvWB6NjwItXplz/kQyiocXTMwkPUmskkkE AB0p9JhsepBHkdZxJ6oJcIktJLlICF3r9iGKuaR/Mrgs7h/kvJ/5ruG/kH1fh/lw/WLt Jdl5TZefqKzXqtTidap/CMs/X90eVfuJgNqNXi5l2a0/eu0d5SFAPIb/kQht15kR17Y6 lMag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:cc; bh=cFf6zy+EOmCmPHdfOfydpXdfUcwCghhYkzFWxL8Idng=; b=R3ha8MWFaOBZYOceAbNMuuK1Twx6/0wIBKduQQvENk86DmQW/8e9qlX57BhzK41sai Z8i5SoZyh53ZqubJ2OD/Z6Omy03q/i735q9YNFuC2gbKOXzModjmuWeV5jKieti0pTCo TMxwT6VYmmOSbAbgRqNw3AFdb/6+vfFQH9WCZFnl7Y15eVzEo1Nkjk/+wcAfRicfYyCD 8VG/UJ9FRN6/a1t+zFLcVxOxXT3zjsRpoUeHwUWp7gkOB7XqFvbVfBwUFegGBxJHwSfr vKGPAAz5NsmeN6m5dwGLDPNyLhK6042h3hq4aMagtQh0JnReRVnSez8ittw6us5sI/3E Hayg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533rrWUMK+g+BhtBCOBN/KPWlkhv72oMAOBGebzYwZc7gsAa0/v1 XYG/VglSD42xQC0R01MK3qOGcy7VYnLJA9RnpRw= X-Received: by 2002:a63:e807:: with SMTP id s7mt3934346pgh.200.1627576402231; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:33:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7C8E8AF7-02FA-4AD5-9A53-3A7539758C55@fb.com> <85EBC68C-0B48-4A45-8F72-7A3C82D28812@akamai.com> <863528193a4945c48498d0b5f01c4dd6@kau.se> <825FDDDF-E12A-4BFC-A489-3982E0DD6BBC@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <825FDDDF-E12A-4BFC-A489-3982E0DD6BBC@akamai.com> From: Sergio Garcia Murillo Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 18:32:56 +0200 Message-ID: Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Anna_Brunstr=C3=B6m?= , Matt Joras , Ian Swett , mops@ietf.org, Roberto Peon , "Das, Dibakar" , Alan Frindell , nathalie.romo-moreno@telekom.de, David Schinazi , markus.amend@telekom.de, quic@ietf.org, Kirill Pugin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004e0a8b05c845a96c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:33:37 -0000 --0000000000004e0a8b05c845a96c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just for clarification, if this needs to be handled, this should be handled at QUIC level and it is not an specific problem for the Media over QUIC protocol, right? El jue., 29 jul. 2021 18:15, Holland, Jake escribi=C3=B3: > Hi Anna, > > > > (And replacing Nathalie=E2=80=99s email with the correct one, hopefully) > > > > That was not quite my understanding, no. Sorry if I opened this > discussion poorly. In Nathalie=E2=80=99s initial response, she clarified= that it=E2=80=99s > configurable, including the option to disable the reordering buffer. > > > > However, I understood this as an option available to the service provider > operating the MP-DCCP split path proxies that tunnel the carried traffic, > not necessarily to the endpoints or the applications having their traffic > split. > > > > Depending on how it=E2=80=99s deployed, this may or may not be a problem = for > particular endpoints, but I couldn=E2=80=99t tell if there was an obvious= or easy > way for an application to select the use case (particularly one that is > just trying to use QUIC and transparently getting traffic-splitting > delivery) in a way that the operator will understand, so I thought it bes= t > to raise the point for discussion. > > > > Best, > > Jake > > > > *From: *Anna Brunstr=C3=B6m > *Date: *Wed,2021-07-28 at 5:31 PM > *To: *Matt Joras , "Holland, Jake" < > jholland@akamai.com> > *Cc: *David Schinazi , Roberto Peon < > fenix@fb.com>, "nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de" < > nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de>, "markus.amend@telekom.de" < > markus.amend@telekom.de>, Ian Swett , "mops@ietf.org= " > , "Das, Dibakar" , Alan Frindell < > afrind@fb.com>, "quic@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin > > *Subject: *RE: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting > Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC > > > > I think multipath and L2 are a bit different as multipath may lead to > large amounts of reordering and delay variations. Not all > applications/implementations may handle this well. But you should of cour= se > also have the possibility to just pass the packets on, and I agree that i= n > many cases this will be the best. > > > > In the context of MP-DCCP, both scheduling and reordering are modular > components so you can certainly choose to pass the packets on without > delay. The need for supporting this is also stated in the draft. But for > the multipath case, I think it is useful to also have the ability to redu= ce > reordering if needed. For ATSSS I guess weather that is desirable or not > may be controlled by the selected mode. > > > > @Jake: if you understood our conversation in ANRW as suggesting that > MP-DCCP should always reorder, that was a misunderstanding. > > > > Best, > > Anna > > > > > > *From:* Matt Joras > *Sent:* den 29 juli 2021 01:58 > *To:* Holland, Jake > *Cc:* David Schinazi ; Roberto Peon < > fenix@fb.com>; Anna Brunstr=C3=B6m ; > nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de; markus.amend@telekom.de; Ian Swett < > ianswett@google.com>; mops@ietf.org; Das, Dibakar = ; > Alan Frindell ; quic@ietf.org; Kirill Pugin > *Subject:* Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting > Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC > > > > Speaking as an individual, a couple comments inline adding to what Jake i= s > saying. > > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:58 PM Holland, Jake 40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > And yet, we still can see network buffering to maintain packet ordering i= n > new work today, including work specifically targeted at QUIC. > > > > In the =E2=80=9CCCID5=E2=80=9D ANRW talk from Monday=E2=80=99s 2nd sessio= n, a reordering buffer > was mentioned in the transparent proxy for the MP-DCCP tunnel they=E2=80= =99re > wrapping QUIC packets in to get multipath traffic-splitting during > transport within wireless carriers (a proposal coming soon to tsvwg): > > https://irtf.org/anrw/2021/program.html#:~:text=3Dnathalie%20romo%20moren= o > > > > > I asked specifically about the reordering buffer at the mic, since this > kind of thing has made me sad before. (There was also a side discussion i= n > the chat.) I got the impression they believe they=E2=80=99re seeing some= benefits > to apps by including this reordering buffer in the network, citing the > wider range of reordering that you get for split-path transport (as > compared to the L2 forwarding case). > > > > I would question whether any application-level benefits could be measured > by the network intermediaries. We (i.e., endpoint owners) have a hard > enough time surmising application-level improvements from _endpoint_ > transport metrics, let alone trying to intuit those as a network > intermediary without any application context whatsoever. Making > network-level decisions based on limited information is a recipe for > "optimizations" that seem good on paper and for a limited set of metrics > but are worse in reality. This is exactly the kind of thing that has led = to > the proliferation of TCP session terminating PEPs, which have overall bee= n > a real impedance to making improvements with TCP on the Internet. > > > > > > If there=E2=80=99s endpoint implementations that aren=E2=80=99t doing a g= ood enough job > here and therefore we=E2=80=99re seeing new network deployments that intr= oduce > buffering because their measurements indicate it=E2=80=99s helpful on com= mon use > cases, it could be worthwhile to get this straightened out before it gets > too normalized and we start having networks reintroduce hol-blocking in a > way that hurts some QUIC use cases in the name of helping others. > > > > Although I expect this can and should be solved at the endpoints, if ther= e > is data showing that the ordering solves a real problem with current > implementations, reasonable people can reasonably conclude that network > buffering to maintain packet order is a good idea. > > > > (Note: UDP client-side port might be an option for a network-visible > signal that might =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D for many (hopefully most?) = ordering schemes > to avoid buffering for ordering, but it might need some API support and i= t > might lead to some other kinds of ugly nat problems if there=E2=80=99s to= o many > flows doing it...) > > > > +Anna, Nathalie and Markus. Hopefully they can comment on this also. > > > > Best, > > Jake > > > > *From: *David Schinazi > *Date: *Wed,2021-07-28 at 2:16 PM > *To: *Roberto Peon > *Cc: *Ian Swett , "mops@ietf.org" , > "Das, Dibakar" , Alan Frindell , " > quic@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin > *Subject: *Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting > Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC > > > > Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all traffic, be it TCP > QUIC or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to reorder packets w= as > a reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long time ago that have > been fixed in systems that care about performance. In today's world, L2 i= s > better off delivering any and all packets in the order they arrive instea= d > of introducing buffer bloat. > > > > David > > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon 40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > The ideal would be to have public bits that were intended to be > interpreted by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 could > adapted appropriately without reinventing the wheel. > It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry ab= out=E2=80=94it is > also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80=9D. > > Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the > application about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that > this dovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw. > > A couple potentially interesting params are: > > A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block > Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t= retry bit=E2=80=9D, but > that is obviously not as expressive as throw out packet older than X > microseconds) > > > -=3DR > > > > *From: *QUIC on behalf of Ian Swett 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Date: *Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM > *To: *"Das, Dibakar" > *Cc: *Alan Frindell , "quic@ietf.org" < > quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin > > *Subject: *Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 > 18:00 UTC > > > > Hi, > > > > I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes. Client wifi stacks > sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency= ), > so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, = it > could be fairly widely applicable. > > > > That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is? Would we need > something visible to a network or can we get away with a socket option th= at > propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when possible? > > > > Ian > > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar > wrote: > > Hi Kirill, Alan, > > > > I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this sid= e > meeting either. > > > > But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based > protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver > frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower > layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achie= ve > its full performance gains at least in some congested network scenarios. > Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was > wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the > QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better > decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain > streams. > > > > I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions. > > > > Regards, > > Dibakar > > > > > > > > *From:* QUIC *On Behalf Of *Alan Frindell > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM > *To:* avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG ; mops@ietf.org > *Cc:* Kirill Pugin > *Subject:* Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 > 18:00 UTC > > > > Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific > > > > Link to draft agenda and video conference details: > https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2= 021.07.03.md > > > > > -Alan > > N=C3=A4r du skickar e-post till Karlstads universitet behandlar vi dina > personuppgifter > > . > When you send an e-mail to Karlstad University, we will process your > personal data > > . > -- > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops > --0000000000004e0a8b05c845a96c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just for clarification, if this needs to be handled, this= should be handled at QUIC level and it is not an specific problem for the = Media over QUIC protocol, right?

El jue., 29 jul. 2021 18:15, Holland, Jake = <jholland=3D40akamai.com@= dmarc.ietf.org> escribi=C3=B3:

Hi Anna,

=C2=A0

(And replacing Nathalie=E2=80=99s email with the co= rrect one, hopefully)

=C2=A0

That was not quite my understanding, no.=C2=A0 Sorr= y if I opened this discussion poorly.=C2=A0 In Nathalie=E2=80=99s initial r= esponse, she clarified that it=E2=80=99s configurable, including the option to disable the reordering buffer.

=C2=A0

However, I understood this as an option available t= o the service provider operating the MP-DCCP split path proxies that tunnel= the carried traffic, not necessarily to the endpoints or the applications having their traffic split.

=C2=A0

Depending on how it=E2=80=99s deployed, this may or= may not be a problem for particular endpoints, but I couldn=E2=80=99t tell= if there was an obvious or easy way for an application to select the use case (particularly one that is just trying to use QUIC and transpa= rently getting traffic-splitting delivery) in a way that the operator will = understand, so I thought it best to raise the point for discussion.<= u>

=C2=A0

Best,

Jake

=C2=A0

From: Anna Brunstr=C3=B6m <anna.brunstrom@kau.se>=
Date: Wed,2021-07-28 at 5:31 PM
To: Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>, "Holland, Ja= ke" <jholland@akamai.com>
Cc: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, Rober= to Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.d= e" <nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de>, "<= a href=3D"mailto:markus.amend@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferr= er">markus.amend@telekom.de" <markus.amend@telekom.de&= gt;, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "mops@ietf.org" &= lt;mo= ps@ietf.org>, "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>, Alan Frinde= ll <afrind@fb.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kir= ill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Subject: RE: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr= iday 7/30 18:00 UTC

=C2=A0

I think multipath and L2 are a bit different as multip= ath may lead to large amounts of reordering and delay variations. Not all a= pplications/implementations may handle this well. But you should of course also have the possibility to just pass the packet= s on, and I agree that in many cases this will be the best.

=C2=A0

In the context of MP-DCCP, both scheduling and reorder= ing are modular components so you can certainly choose to pass the packets = on without delay. The need for supporting this is also stated in the draft. But for the multipath case, I think it is use= ful to also have the ability to reduce reordering if needed. For ATSSS I gu= ess weather that is desirable or not may be controlled by the selected mode= .

=C2=A0

@Jake: if you understood our conversation in ANRW as s= uggesting that MP-DCCP should always reorder, that was a misunderstanding.<= u>

=C2=A0

Best,

Anna

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: M= att Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>
Sent: den 29 juli 2021 01:58
To: Holland, Jake <jholland=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.or= g>
Cc: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>; Rober= to Peon <fenix@fb.com>; Anna Brunstr=C3=B6m <anna.brunstrom@kau.s= e>; nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de; markus.amen= d@telekom.de; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>; mops@ietf.org;= Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com>; Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>; quic@ietf.org; Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com<= /a>>
Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr= iday 7/30 18:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Speak= ing as an individual, a couple comments inline adding to what Jake is sayin= g.

=C2=A0

And yet, we still can see network buffering to maintain packet ordering in = new work today, including work specifically targeted at QUIC.=

=C2=A0

In the =E2=80=9CCCID5=E2=80=9D ANRW talk from Monday=E2=80=99s 2nd session, a reordering buffer was mentioned in the transparent proxy for = the MP-DCCP tunnel they=E2=80=99re wrapping QUIC packets in to get multipat= h traffic-splitting during transport within wireless carriers (a proposal coming soon to tsvwg):

https://irtf.org/anrw/2021/program.html#:~:text=3Dnathalie%20romo= %20moreno

=C2=A0

I asked specifically about the reordering buffer at the mic, since this kin= d of thing has made me sad before. (There was also a side discussion in the= chat.)=C2=A0 I got the impression they believe they=E2=80=99re seeing some= benefits to apps by including this reordering buffer in the network, citing the wider range of reordering that you get f= or split-path transport (as compared to the L2 forwarding case).<= /u>

=C2=A0

I wou= ld question whether any application-level benefits could be measured by the= network intermediaries. We (i.e., endpoint owners) have a hard enough time= surmising application-level improvements from _endpoint_ transport metrics, let alone trying to intuit those as a n= etwork intermediary without any application context whatsoever. Making netw= ork-level decisions based on limited information is a recipe for "opti= mizations" that seem good on paper and for a limited set of metrics but are worse in reality. This is exactly the= kind of thing that has led to the proliferation of TCP session terminating= PEPs, which have overall been a real impedance to making improvements with= TCP on the Internet.

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

If there=E2=80=99s endpoint implementations that aren=E2=80=99t doing a goo= d enough job here and therefore we=E2=80=99re seeing new network deployment= s that introduce buffering because their measurements indicate it=E2=80=99s= helpful on common use cases, it could be worthwhile to get this straightened out before it gets too normalized and we start having network= s reintroduce hol-blocking in a way that hurts some QUIC use cases in the n= ame of helping others.

=C2=A0

Although I expect this can and should be solved at the endpoints, if there = is data showing that the ordering solves a real problem with current implem= entations, reasonable people can reasonably conclude that network buffering= to maintain packet order is a good idea.

=C2=A0

(Note: UDP client-side port might be an option for a network-visible signal= that might =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D for many (hopefully most?) ordering= schemes to avoid buffering for ordering, but it might need some API suppor= t and it might lead to some other kinds of ugly nat problems if there=E2=80=99s too many flows doing it...)<= /p>

=C2=A0

+Anna, Nathalie and Markus.=C2=A0 Hopefully they can comment on this also.<= u>

=C2=A0

Best,

Jake

=C2=A0

From: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed,2021-07-28 at 2:16 PM
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
Cc: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "mops@ietf.org&q= uot; <mops@ietf.org>, "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@inte= l.com>, Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.or= g>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr= iday 7/30 18:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all traffic, be it TCP QUI= C or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to reorder packets was a = reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long time ago that have been = fixed in systems that care about performance. In today's world, L2 is better off delivering any and all= packets in the order they arrive instead of introducing buffer bloat.

=C2=A0

David

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon <fenix=3D40fb.com@dmar= c.ietf.org> wrote:

The ideal would be to have public bits that were intended to be interpreted= by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 could adapted appropria= tely without reinventing the wheel.
It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry abou= t=E2=80=94it is also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80= =9D.

Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the appli= cation about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that this d= ovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw.

A couple potentially interesting params are:

=C2=A0 A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block
=C2=A0=C2=A0Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon= =E2=80=99t retry bit=E2=80=9D, but that is obviously not as expressive as t= hrow out packet older than X microseconds)

=C2=A0
-=3DR

=C2=A0

From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ian Swett <iansw= ett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM
To: "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com> Cc: Alan Frindell <afrind=3D40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,= "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" <= mops@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Subject: Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/= 30 18:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.=C2=A0 Client wifi stacks= sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency)= , so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, = it could be fairly widely applicable.

=C2=A0

That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is?=C2=A0 Would= =C2=A0we need something visible to a network or can we get away with a sock= et option that propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when pos= sible?

=C2=A0

Ian

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com> wrote:

Hi Kirill, Alan,

=C2=A0

I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this side = meeting either.

=C2=A0

But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based p= rotocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver frame= s in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower layers= . I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achieve its full performance gains at least i= n some congested network scenarios. Considering that in-order delivery is m= ade optional in 5G PDCP, I was wondering if there could be a value to have = some signaling defined in the QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better decision= about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain streams.

=C2=A0

I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions. =

=C2=A0

Regards,

Dibakar

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Alan Frindell
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM
To: avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; mops@= ietf.org
Cc: Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Subject: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 1= 8:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific

=C2=A0

Link to draft agenda and video conference details: https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.202= 1.07.03.md

=C2=A0

-Alan

N=C3=A4r du skickar e-post= till Karlstads universitet behandlar vi dina personuppgifter.
When you send an e-mail to Karlstad Universi= ty, we will process your personal data.

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In-Reply-To: <111093F7-270D-4D12-95AB-60BACB9B6ABA@akamai.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:36:16 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Holland, Jake" Cc: "mops@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000005209a05c84839e6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in particular) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 19:36:50 -0000 --00000000000005209a05c84839e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Jake, On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:59 PM Holland, Jake wrote: > Hi Mops, > > Ali just mentioned that the mops group also might be > interested in Web multicast, since video is such an important > use case for it. > > It's very late notice, sorry, but anyone who can make it is > invited to attend the Web Multicast bar bof starting in 2 > minutes. > This was a very interesting side meeting. Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and where the notes would be posted? Best, Spencer > Best regards, > Jake > > =EF=BB=BFOn 07-22, 10:44 AM, "Holland, Jake" wrote: > > Hi WebTransport, > > I'd like to let you know about a new W3C Community group > dedicated to incubating Multicast support for web traffic: > https://www.w3.org/community/multicast/ > https://w3c.github.io/multicast-cg/multicast-cg-charter.html > > For the first phase, we're working toward an integration with > WebTransport, as the charter describes in more detail. > > I've set up a bar bof side meeting at 11am Pacific Time on > Thursday July 29th to discuss further. Details are attached, > the meeting link is at the bottom, and it's registered here: > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/111sidemeetings > > (I'd ask for a slot in webtrans, but hilariously, it's at the > same time as mboned, where some other parts of this work are > under way.) > > > A little more background: > > Akamai is wrapping up some trials and discussions with several > ISPs and content owners evaluating the feasibility of standards- > based multicast delivery for our popular production traffic on a > 3-5 year timeline. The trials were checking whether our > prototypes and specs look like they'll be feasible to deploy > after productizing them, and whether the achievable traffic > offload would make investment worthwhile. > > The moderately positive results of these trials (as well as some > interest generated during a W3C Interest group presentation) led > to the creation of the new community group as part of our next > steps. > > We'll be relying on progress on some of the IETF docs to clarify > and address the networking requirements for web traffic as it > relates to multicast IP delivery. > > The first one to consider from the webtrans point of view is > probably our recently-posted security considerations draft: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-krose-multicast-security > > The aim is for this doc ultimately to perform a similar function > to what RFC 8826 did for WebRTC. > > There are other relevant docs that taken together we think can fill > the security needs we know about so far, with a little refinement: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pardue-quic-http-mcast > > I understand this to be outside webtransport's current charter, > but we'd like to develop this work between now and IETF 112, and in > November to bring a coherent and well-supported proposal for next > steps either to a venue like secdispatch or to a BoF for an > appropriate new group, depending on the advice we get along the way. > > One option that might be worth considering would be rechartering > webtransport to allow for a scope that includes this work. > > But even if that turns out not to be the right thing, we expect > that members of webtransport will have crucial expertise and opinions, > and we would value your feedback and request some level of liaison as > we try to move this forward. > > I hope to see some of you next Thursday. > > Best regards, > Jake > > [1] Webex meeting for Thursday at 11am Pacific (1 hour before the > first sessions of the day): > > https://akamai.webex.com/akamai/j.php?MTID=3Dmbe0822775e2ba553d4669b44183= 3ec38 > > > -- > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops > --00000000000005209a05c84839e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Jake,=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12= :59 PM Holland, Jake <jholland=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi Mops,

Ali just mentioned that the mops group also might be
interested in Web multicast, since video is such an important
use case for it.

It's very late notice, sorry, but anyone who can make it is
invited to attend the Web Multicast bar bof starting in 2
minutes.

This was a very interesting si= de meeting.=C2=A0

Could I ask where you expect dis= cussion to happen, and where the notes would be posted?

Best,

Spencer
=C2=A0
Best regards,
Jake

=EF=BB=BFOn 07-22, 10:44 AM, "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com> wrote:=

Hi WebTransport,

I'd like to let you know about a new W3C Community group
dedicated to incubating Multicast support for web traffic:
https://www.w3.org/community/multicast/
https://w3c.github.io/multicast-cg/multi= cast-cg-charter.html

For the first phase, we're working toward an integration with
WebTransport, as the charter describes in more detail.

I've set up a bar bof side meeting at 11am Pacific Time on
Thursday July 29th to discuss further.=C2=A0 Details are attached,
the meeting link is at the bottom, and it's registered here:
https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/= wiki/111sidemeetings

(I'd ask for a slot in webtrans, but hilariously, it's at the
same time as mboned, where some other parts of this work are
under way.)


A little more background:

Akamai is wrapping up some trials and discussions with several
ISPs and content owners evaluating the feasibility of standards-
based multicast delivery for our popular production traffic on a
3-5 year timeline.=C2=A0 The trials were checking whether our
prototypes and specs look like they'll be feasible to deploy
after productizing them, and whether the achievable traffic
offload would make investment worthwhile.

The moderately positive results of these trials (as well as some
interest generated during a W3C Interest group presentation) led
to the creation of the new community group as part of our next
steps.

We'll be relying on progress on some of the IETF docs to clarify
and address the networking requirements for web traffic as it
relates to multicast IP delivery.

The first one to consider from the webtrans point of view is
probably our recently-posted security considerations draft:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc= /html/draft-krose-multicast-security

The aim is for this doc ultimately to perform a similar function
to what RFC 8826 did for WebRTC.

There are other relevant docs that taken together we think can fill
the security needs we know about so far, with a little refinement:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dr= aft-ietf-mboned-ambi
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/h= tml/draft-pardue-quic-http-mcast

I understand this to be outside webtransport's current charter,
but we'd like to develop this work between now and IETF 112, and in
November to bring a coherent and well-supported proposal for next
steps either to a venue like secdispatch or to a BoF for an
appropriate new group, depending on the advice we get along the way.

One option that might be worth considering would be rechartering
webtransport to allow for a scope that includes this work.

But even if that turns out not to be the right thing, we expect
that members of webtransport will have crucial expertise and opinions,
and we would value your feedback and request some level of liaison as
we try to move this forward.

I hope to see some of you next Thursday.

Best regards,
Jake

[1] Webex meeting for Thursday at 11am Pacific (1 hour before the
first sessions of the day):
https://akamai.webex.c= om/akamai/j.php?MTID=3Dmbe0822775e2ba553d4669b441833ec38


--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops
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Thu, 29 Jul 2021 19:42:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7C8E8AF7-02FA-4AD5-9A53-3A7539758C55@fb.com> <85EBC68C-0B48-4A45-8F72-7A3C82D28812@akamai.com> <863528193a4945c48498d0b5f01c4dd6@kau.se> <825FDDDF-E12A-4BFC-A489-3982E0DD6BBC@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ian Swett Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 22:42:15 -0400 Message-ID: To: Zaheduzzaman Sarker Cc: Sergio Garcia Murillo , "mops@ietf.org" , Roberto Peon , Matt Joras , "Das, Dibakar" , Alan Frindell , "nathalie.romo-moreno@telekom.de" , =?UTF-8?Q?Anna_Brunstr=C3=B6m?= , David Schinazi , "markus.amend@telekom.de" , "quic@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000097ee8505c84e2bd6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 02:42:36 -0000 --00000000000097ee8505c84e2bd6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TLDR: Ideally, handling reordering on the receiving host will reduce user latency and be cheaper for everyone. Changing the TCP ecosystem is slow, so I can't advise immediately doing this for TCP traffic, but doing this now for QUIC(and maybe documenting it in Manageability?) seems viable. If we wait longer, the ecosystem will be ossified. I'm not sure anyone is willing to introduce intentional reordering to GREASE the loss detection system and ensure implementations adapt, but I'll discuss if that's something we would do for some traffic when sending multi-packet bursts. I believe the vast majority of QUIC applications would benefit from increased reordering if it reduced latency and buffering. In TCP, you can detect reordering from the sequence number. But for QUIC, the metadata is encrypted, so a given network can only attempt to reduce reordering in a much narrower context, which is much less useful. Add into that the fact you don't know the application, and the benefits of delaying packets within the network/path become even more difficult to reason about. To frame this in statistical terms, the sum of multiple normal distributions is a normal distribution with the sum of the means and a sum of the variances( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random_variables)= . Since the standard deviation is the square root of the variance, the standard deviation is dominated by the largest source of variation, and if each link introduces some variance, it's really only the one that introduces the most variation that matters. Given no link knows whether it's the dominant source of variation on the path, I'd suggest every link pass along packets as soon as possible. Obviously, link-layer error correction and other approaches which increase reliability without introducing delay are still welcome and valuable. Thanks, Ian On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 2:10 PM Zaheduzzaman Sarker < zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com> wrote: > I would say this is not specific to media over QUIC. However, a potential > solution to this could boost the deployment of potential radio technologi= es > ( for example - Unacknowledgement Mode (UM) of RLC in cellular networks) > which might actually help low latency media usecases. > > > > BR > > Zahed > > > > On 2021-07-29, 22:35, "QUIC on behalf of Sergio Garcia Murillo" < > quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com> wrote= : > > > > Just for clarification, if this needs to be handled, this should be > handled at QUIC level and it is not an specific problem for the Media ove= r > QUIC protocol, right? > > > > El jue., 29 jul. 2021 18:15, Holland, Jake 40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> escribi=C3=B3: > > Hi Anna, > > > > (And replacing Nathalie=E2=80=99s email with the correct one, hopefully) > > > > That was not quite my understanding, no. Sorry if I opened this > discussion poorly. In Nathalie=E2=80=99s initial response, she clarified= that it=E2=80=99s > configurable, including the option to disable the reordering buffer. > > > > However, I understood this as an option available to the service provider > operating the MP-DCCP split path proxies that tunnel the carried traffic, > not necessarily to the endpoints or the applications having their traffic > split. > > > > Depending on how it=E2=80=99s deployed, this may or may not be a problem = for > particular endpoints, but I couldn=E2=80=99t tell if there was an obvious= or easy > way for an application to select the use case (particularly one that is > just trying to use QUIC and transparently getting traffic-splitting > delivery) in a way that the operator will understand, so I thought it bes= t > to raise the point for discussion. > > > > Best, > > Jake > > > > *From: *Anna Brunstr=C3=B6m > *Date: *Wed,2021-07-28 at 5:31 PM > *To: *Matt Joras , "Holland, Jake" < > jholland@akamai.com> > *Cc: *David Schinazi , Roberto Peon < > fenix@fb.com>, "nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de" < > nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de>, "markus.amend@telekom.de" < > markus.amend@telekom.de>, Ian Swett , "mops@ietf.org= " > , "Das, Dibakar" , Alan Frindell < > afrind@fb.com>, "quic@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin > > *Subject: *RE: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting > Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC > > > > I think multipath and L2 are a bit different as multipath may lead to > large amounts of reordering and delay variations. Not all > applications/implementations may handle this well. But you should of cour= se > also have the possibility to just pass the packets on, and I agree that i= n > many cases this will be the best. > > > > In the context of MP-DCCP, both scheduling and reordering are modular > components so you can certainly choose to pass the packets on without > delay. The need for supporting this is also stated in the draft. But for > the multipath case, I think it is useful to also have the ability to redu= ce > reordering if needed. For ATSSS I guess weather that is desirable or not > may be controlled by the selected mode. > > > > @Jake: if you understood our conversation in ANRW as suggesting that > MP-DCCP should always reorder, that was a misunderstanding. > > > > Best, > > Anna > > > > > > *From:* Matt Joras > *Sent:* den 29 juli 2021 01:58 > *To:* Holland, Jake > *Cc:* David Schinazi ; Roberto Peon < > fenix@fb.com>; Anna Brunstr=C3=B6m ; > nathalie.romomoreno@telekom.de; markus.amend@telekom.de; Ian Swett < > ianswett@google.com>; mops@ietf.org; Das, Dibakar = ; > Alan Frindell ; quic@ietf.org; Kirill Pugin > *Subject:* Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting > Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC > > > > Speaking as an individual, a couple comments inline adding to what Jake i= s > saying. > > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:58 PM Holland, Jake 40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > And yet, we still can see network buffering to maintain packet ordering i= n > new work today, including work specifically targeted at QUIC. > > > > In the =E2=80=9CCCID5=E2=80=9D ANRW talk from Monday=E2=80=99s 2nd sessio= n, a reordering buffer > was mentioned in the transparent proxy for the MP-DCCP tunnel they=E2=80= =99re > wrapping QUIC packets in to get multipath traffic-splitting during > transport within wireless carriers (a proposal coming soon to tsvwg): > > https://irtf.org/anrw/2021/program.html#:~:text=3Dnathalie%20romo%20moren= o > > > > > I asked specifically about the reordering buffer at the mic, since this > kind of thing has made me sad before. (There was also a side discussion i= n > the chat.) I got the impression they believe they=E2=80=99re seeing some= benefits > to apps by including this reordering buffer in the network, citing the > wider range of reordering that you get for split-path transport (as > compared to the L2 forwarding case). > > > > I would question whether any application-level benefits could be measured > by the network intermediaries. We (i.e., endpoint owners) have a hard > enough time surmising application-level improvements from _endpoint_ > transport metrics, let alone trying to intuit those as a network > intermediary without any application context whatsoever. Making > network-level decisions based on limited information is a recipe for > "optimizations" that seem good on paper and for a limited set of metrics > but are worse in reality. This is exactly the kind of thing that has led = to > the proliferation of TCP session terminating PEPs, which have overall bee= n > a real impedance to making improvements with TCP on the Internet. > > > > > > If there=E2=80=99s endpoint implementations that aren=E2=80=99t doing a g= ood enough job > here and therefore we=E2=80=99re seeing new network deployments that intr= oduce > buffering because their measurements indicate it=E2=80=99s helpful on com= mon use > cases, it could be worthwhile to get this straightened out before it gets > too normalized and we start having networks reintroduce hol-blocking in a > way that hurts some QUIC use cases in the name of helping others. > > > > Although I expect this can and should be solved at the endpoints, if ther= e > is data showing that the ordering solves a real problem with current > implementations, reasonable people can reasonably conclude that network > buffering to maintain packet order is a good idea. > > > > (Note: UDP client-side port might be an option for a network-visible > signal that might =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D for many (hopefully most?) = ordering schemes > to avoid buffering for ordering, but it might need some API support and i= t > might lead to some other kinds of ugly nat problems if there=E2=80=99s to= o many > flows doing it...) > > > > +Anna, Nathalie and Markus. Hopefully they can comment on this also. > > > > Best, > > Jake > > > > *From: *David Schinazi > *Date: *Wed,2021-07-28 at 2:16 PM > *To: *Roberto Peon > *Cc: *Ian Swett , "mops@ietf.org" , > "Das, Dibakar" , Alan Frindell , " > quic@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin > *Subject: *Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting > Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC > > > > Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all traffic, be it TCP > QUIC or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to reorder packets w= as > a reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long time ago that have > been fixed in systems that care about performance. In today's world, L2 i= s > better off delivering any and all packets in the order they arrive instea= d > of introducing buffer bloat. > > > > David > > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon 40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > The ideal would be to have public bits that were intended to be > interpreted by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 could > adapted appropriately without reinventing the wheel. > It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry ab= out=E2=80=94it is > also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80=9D. > > Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the > application about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that > this dovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw. > > A couple potentially interesting params are: > > A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block > Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t= retry bit=E2=80=9D, but > that is obviously not as expressive as throw out packet older than X > microseconds) > > > -=3DR > > > > *From: *QUIC on behalf of Ian Swett 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Date: *Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM > *To: *"Das, Dibakar" > *Cc: *Alan Frindell , "quic@ietf.org" < > quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin > > *Subject: *Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 > 18:00 UTC > > > > Hi, > > > > I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes. Client wifi stacks > sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the corresponding latency= ), > so if we could design an indication that in-order delivery has no value, = it > could be fairly widely applicable. > > > > That being said, I don't know what the right mechanism is? Would we need > something visible to a network or can we get away with a socket option th= at > propagates to the local 5G network or Wifi firmware when possible? > > > > Ian > > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar > wrote: > > Hi Kirill, Alan, > > > > I could not attend the call this week and wont be able to attend this sid= e > meeting either. > > > > But I had a general question about the performance of all such QUIC based > protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC layers deliver > frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking problem at lower > layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achie= ve > its full performance gains at least in some congested network scenarios. > Considering that in-order delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was > wondering if there could be a value to have some signaling defined in the > QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make better > decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain > streams. > > > > I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue to ask questions. > > > > Regards, > > Dibakar > > > > > > > > *From:* QUIC *On Behalf Of *Alan Frindell > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM > *To:* avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG ; mops@ietf.org > *Cc:* Kirill Pugin > *Subject:* Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 > 18:00 UTC > > > > Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC / 11 Pacific > > > > Link to draft agenda and video conference details: > https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.2= 021.07.03.md > > > > > -Alan > > N=C3=A4r du skickar e-post till Karlstads universitet behandlar vi dina > personuppgifter > > . > When you send an e-mail to Karlstad University, we will process your > personal data > > . > > -- > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops > > --00000000000097ee8505c84e2bd6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
TLDR: Ideally, handling reordering on the receiving h= ost will reduce=C2=A0user=C2=A0latency and be cheaper for everyone.

Changing the TCP ecosystem is slow, so I can't advise= immediately doing this for TCP traffic, but doing this now for QUIC(and ma= ybe documenting it in Manageability?) seems viable.=C2=A0 If we wait longer= , the=C2=A0ecosystem will be ossified.=C2=A0 I'm not sure anyone is wil= ling to introduce intentional reordering to GREASE the loss detection syste= m and ensure implementations adapt, but I'll discuss if that's some= thing we would do for some traffic when sending multi-packet bursts.
<= div>

I believe the vast majority of QUIC applicati= ons would benefit from increased reordering if it reduced latency and buffe= ring.=C2=A0 In TCP, you can detect reordering from the sequence number.=C2= =A0 But for QUIC, the metadata is encrypted, so a given network can only at= tempt to reduce reordering in a much narrower context, which is much less u= seful.=C2=A0 Add into that the fact you don't know the application, and= the benefits of delaying packets within the network/path become even more = difficult to reason about.

To frame this=C2=A0in s= tatistical terms, the sum of multiple normal distributions is a normal dist= ribution with the sum of the means and a sum of the variances(h= ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random_variables).=C2=A0 Since the standard deviation is the square root of the variance,= the standard deviation is dominated by the largest source of variation, an= d if each link introduces some variance, it's really only the one that = introduces the most variation that matters.=C2=A0 Given no link knows wheth= er it's the dominant source of variation on the path, I'd suggest e= very link pass along packets as soon as possible.=C2=A0 Obviously, link-lay= er error correction and other approaches which increase reliability without= introducing delay are still welcome and valuable.

Thanks, Ian



= I would say this is not specific to media over QUIC. However, a potential s= olution to this could boost the deployment of potential radio technologies = ( for example - Unacknowledgement Mode (UM) of RLC in cellular networks) which might actually help low laten= cy media usecases.

= =C2=A0

= BR

= Zahed =C2=A0

=C2=A0

On 2021-07-29, 22:35, &qu= ot;QUIC on behalf of Sergio Garcia Murillo" <quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of sergio= .garcia.murillo@gmail.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

Just for clarification, i= f this needs to be handled, this should be handled at QUIC level and it is = not an specific problem for the Media over QUIC protocol, right?<= /u>

=C2=A0

El jue., 29 jul. 2021 18:= 15, Holland, Jake <jholland=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> escribi=C3=B3:

Hi Anna,

=C2=A0

(And replacing Nathalie=E2=80=99s email with the corre= ct one, hopefully)

=C2=A0

That was not quite my understanding, no.=C2=A0 Sorry i= f I opened this discussion poorly.=C2=A0 In Nathalie=E2=80=99s initial resp= onse, she clarified that it=E2=80=99s configurable, including the option to= disable the reordering buffer.

=C2=A0

However, I understood this as an option available to t= he service provider operating the MP-DCCP split path proxies that tunnel th= e carried traffic, not necessarily to the endpoints or the applications hav= ing their traffic split.

=C2=A0

Depending on how it=E2=80=99s deployed, this may or ma= y not be a problem for particular endpoints, but I couldn=E2=80=99t tell if= there was an obvious or easy way for an application to select the use case= (particularly one that is just trying to use QUIC and transparently getting traffic-splitting delivery) in a way that the op= erator will understand, so I thought it best to raise the point for discuss= ion.

=C2=A0

Best,

Jake

=C2=A0

From: Anna Brunstr=C3=B6m <anna.brunstrom@kau.se>
Date: Wed,2021-07-28 at 5:31 PM
To: Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>, "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com&= gt;
Cc: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "nathalie.ro= momoreno@telekom.de" <na= thalie.romomoreno@telekom.de>, "markus.amend@telekom.de" <markus.amend@telekom.= de>, Ian Swett <ian= swett@google.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com&g= t;, Alan Frindell <afrin= d@fb.com>, "= quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Subject: RE: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr= iday 7/30 18:00 UTC

=C2=A0

I think multipath and L= 2 are a bit different as multipath may lead to large amounts of reordering = and delay variations. Not all applications/implementations may handle this = well. But you should of course also have the possibility to just pass the packets on, and I agree that in many cases th= is will be the best.

=C2=A0

In the context of MP-DC= CP, both scheduling and reordering are modular components so you can certai= nly choose to pass the packets on without delay. The need for supporting th= is is also stated in the draft. But for the multipath case, I think it is useful to also have the ability to reduce re= ordering if needed. For ATSSS I guess weather that is desirable or not may = be controlled by the selected mode.

=C2=A0

@Jake: if you understoo= d our conversation in ANRW as suggesting that MP-DCCP should always reorder= , that was a misunderstanding.

=C2=A0

Best,

Anna

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Matt Joras &l= t;matt.joras@gmai= l.com>
Sent: den 29 juli 2021 01:58
To: Holland, Jake <jholland=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; Anna Bruns= tr=C3=B6m <an= na.brunstrom@kau.se>; nathali= e.romomoreno@telekom.de; markus.amend@t= elekom.de; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>; mops@ietf.org; Das, = Dibakar <diba= kar.das@intel.com>; Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>; quic@ietf.org; Kiril= l Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr= iday 7/30 18:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Speaking as an individual, a couple comments inline addin= g to what Jake is saying.<= /p>

=C2=A0

And yet, we still can see network buffering to maintai= n packet ordering in new work today, including work specifically targeted a= t QUIC.

=C2=A0

In the =E2=80=9CCCID5=E2=80=9D ANRW talk from Monday= =E2=80=99s 2nd session, a reordering buffer was mentioned in the= transparent proxy for the MP-DCCP tunnel they=E2=80=99re wrapping QUIC pac= kets in to get multipath traffic-splitting during transport within wireless carriers (a proposal coming soon to tsvwg):

https://irtf.org/anrw/2021/program.html#:~:text=3Dnathalie%20ro= mo%20moreno

=C2=A0

I asked specifically about the reordering buffer at th= e mic, since this kind of thing has made me sad before. (There was also a s= ide discussion in the chat.)=C2=A0 I got the impression they believe they= =E2=80=99re seeing some benefits to apps by including this reordering buffer in the network, citing the wider range of reorderin= g that you get for split-path transport (as compared to the L2 forwarding c= ase).

=C2=A0

I would question whether any application-level benefits c= ould be measured by the network intermediaries. We (i.e., endpoint owners) = have a hard enough time surmising application-level improvements from _endp= oint_ transport metrics, let alone trying to intuit those as a network intermediary without any application c= ontext whatsoever. Making network-level decisions based on limited informat= ion is a recipe for "optimizations" that seem good on paper and f= or a limited set of metrics but are worse in reality. This is exactly the kind of thing that has led to the prolifer= ation of TCP session terminating PEPs, which have overall been a real imped= ance to making improvements with TCP on the Internet.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

If there=E2=80=99s endpoint implementations that aren= =E2=80=99t doing a good enough job here and therefore we=E2=80=99re seeing = new network deployments that introduce buffering because their measurements= indicate it=E2=80=99s helpful on common use cases, it could be worthwhile to get this straightened out before it gets too normalized and we start ha= ving networks reintroduce hol-blocking in a way that hurts some QUIC use ca= ses in the name of helping others.

=C2=A0

Although I expect this can and should be solved at the= endpoints, if there is data showing that the ordering solves a real proble= m with current implementations, reasonable people can reasonably conclude t= hat network buffering to maintain packet order is a good idea.

=C2=A0

(Note: UDP client-side port might be an option for a n= etwork-visible signal that might =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D for many (hope= fully most?) ordering schemes to avoid buffering for ordering, but it might= need some API support and it might lead to some other kinds of ugly nat problems if there=E2=80=99s too many flows doing it...)<= u>

=C2=A0

+Anna, Nathalie and Markus.=C2=A0 Hopefully they can c= omment on this also.

=C2=A0

Best,

Jake

=C2=A0

From: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed,2021-07-28 at 2:16 PM
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
Cc: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org>, "Das, Dibakar" <<= a href=3D"mailto:dibakar.das@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">dibakar.das@intel= .com>, Alan Frindell <afrin= d@fb.com>, "= quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Fr= iday 7/30 18:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Why would we need a signal here? This applies to all t= raffic, be it TCP QUIC or anything else. Firmwares introducing latency to r= eorder packets was a reaction to bad implementations of TCP from a long tim= e ago that have been fixed in systems that care about performance. In today's world, L2 is better off delive= ring any and all packets in the order they arrive instead of introducing bu= ffer bloat.

=C2=A0

David

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:24 PM Roberto Peon <fenix= =3D40fb.com@dm= arc.ietf.org> wrote:

The ideal would be to have public bits that were inten= ded to be interpreted by (as you say, visible to) those layers so any L2 co= uld adapted appropriately without reinventing the wheel.
It isn=E2=80=99t just the local radio firmware that one needs to worry abou= t=E2=80=94it is also the basestation(s) that may be =E2=80=9Chelping=E2=80= =9D.

Separately, but also important, is being able to get signals from the appli= cation about what tradeoffs should be at the network. I believe that this d= ovetails into many of the multipath issues, btw.

A couple potentially interesting params are:

=C2=A0 A bit to say please don=E2=80=99t HoL block =C2=A0=C2=A0Some kind of mechanism(s) to bound retries (e.g. =E2=80=9Cdon= =E2=80=99t retry bit=E2=80=9D, but that is obviously not as expressive as t= hrow out packet older than X microseconds)

=C2=A0
-=3DR

=C2=A0

From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ian Sw= ett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 12:42 PM
To: "Das, Dibakar" <dibakar.das@intel.com>
Cc: Alan Frindell <afrind=3D40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "mops@ietf.org" <mops@ietf.org&g= t;, Kirill Pugin <ikir@= fb.com>
Subject: Re: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/= 30 18:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I can't answer for Alan, but my belief is yes.=C2= =A0 Client wifi stacks sometimes also do some reordering(and introduce the = corresponding latency), so if we could design an indication that in-order d= elivery has no value, it could be fairly widely applicable.

=C2=A0

That being said, I don't know what the right mecha= nism is?=C2=A0 Would=C2=A0we need something visible to a network or can we = get away with a socket option that propagates to the local 5G network or Wi= fi firmware when possible?

=C2=A0

Ian

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@intel.com= > wrote:

Hi Kirill, Alan,

=C2=A0

I could not attend the call this week and wont be able= to attend this side meeting either.

=C2=A0

But I had a general question about the performance of = all such QUIC based protocols over wireless. Typically, the 5G and WiFI MAC= layers deliver frames in-order which sort of recreates the HOL blocking pr= oblem at lower layers. I would expect this to in turn prevent the QUIC protocol to achieve its full performance = gains at least in some congested network scenarios. Considering that in-ord= er delivery is made optional in 5G PDCP, I was wondering if there could be = a value to have some signaling defined in the QUIC (or RUSH ?) protocol that would allow lower layers to make bet= ter decision about whether to enable/disable in-order delivery for certain = streams.

=C2=A0

I apologize in advance if this is not the right venue = to ask questions.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Dibakar

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.or= g> On Behalf Of Alan Frindell
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 8:42 AM
To: avt@ietf.org; wish@ietf.org; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; mops@ietf.org
Cc: Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
Subject: Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 1= 8:00 UTC

=C2=A0

Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 = UTC / 11 Pacific

=C2=A0

Link to draft agenda and video conference details: https://github.com/afrind/draft-rush/blob/main/meeting-materials/agenda.202= 1.07.03.md

=C2=A0

-Alan

N=C3=A4r du skicka= r e-post till Karlstads universitet behandlar vi dina personuppgifter.
When you send an e-mail to Karlstad University, we will process= your personal data.

--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops

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=?utf-8?B?QW5uYSBCcnVuc3Ryw7Zt?= , David Schinazi , "markus.amend@telekom.de" , "quic@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin Thread-Topic: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC Thread-Index: AQHXg+6whE5wD+6LXkyEiMKg1sb5hatZN2gA//+nEQCAAIZMAIAACR+A//+NaACAAX9tAIAAG0cAgACO94D//71cAA== Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 05:43:48 +0000 Message-ID: <71BB2EA5-5D6C-4C0A-9938-370361FF597D@akamai.com> References: <7C8E8AF7-02FA-4AD5-9A53-3A7539758C55@fb.com> <85EBC68C-0B48-4A45-8F72-7A3C82D28812@akamai.com> <863528193a4945c48498d0b5f01c4dd6@kau.se> <825FDDDF-E12A-4BFC-A489-3982E0DD6BBC@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.51.21071101 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_71BB2EA55D6C4C0A9938370361FF597Dakamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 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Begen" In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:26:53 +0300 Cc: Zaheduzzaman Sarker , Sergio Garcia Murillo , "mops@ietf.org" , Roberto Peon , Matt Joras , "Das, Dibakar" , Alan Frindell , "nathalie.romo-moreno@telekom.de" , =?utf-8?Q?Anna_Brunstr=C3=B6m?= , David Schinazi , "markus.amend@telekom.de" , "quic@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3606E33E-A5CC-470F-8765-F7CBD84A8D6F@networked.media> References: <7C8E8AF7-02FA-4AD5-9A53-3A7539758C55@fb.com> <85EBC68C-0B48-4A45-8F72-7A3C82D28812@akamai.com> <863528193a4945c48498d0b5f01c4dd6@kau.se> <825FDDDF-E12A-4BFC-A489-3982E0DD6BBC@akamai.com> To: Ian Swett X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:27:04 -0000 > On Jul 30, 2021, at 5:42 AM, Ian Swett = wrote: >=20 > To frame this in statistical terms, the sum of multiple normal = distributions is a normal distribution with the sum of the means and a = sum of the = variances(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random= _variables). Since the standard deviation is the square root of the = variance, the standard deviation is dominated by the largest source of = variation, and if each link introduces some variance, it's really only = the one that introduces the most variation that matters. Sure, but that assumes independent distributions which does not much = apply in this case. But the point is still valid, there will likely be = 1-2 problematic hops in the entire ~10-20 e2e path. > Given no link knows whether it's the dominant source of variation on = the path, I'd suggest every link pass along packets as soon as possible. = =20 Yes. > Obviously, link-layer error correction and other approaches which = increase reliability without introducing delay are still welcome and = valuable. +1, though improved reliability almost always comes at the cost of = increased delay (rtx, fec, etc.).= From nobody Fri Jul 30 06:41:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E7493A2AA0 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:41:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UXva9NSRXK0Y for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x930.google.com (mail-ua1-x930.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::930]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0553F3A2A9F for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x930.google.com with SMTP id j7so3996044uaj.10 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:41:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+Z15zOF2sKwVXL2LFLFjulP/fqtwqSSKmEq+cBw2tcA=; b=XtciMJ7T579YjUmAanJPkw1snuVUtlMIyixAFesoxPWV8k9Y44KWW/UA88T2UBGzSi d5Xp4s2+QSlavkq19YqkbwFspu4w1GHurgbxooaLYdWLskSC1IJfmy50WuCi7qZ7IDHB BFRztqPp91y0d7xip1bKArhy53g0Y/Kdq6RqaA+fibp5XMjdkUwOHRFWj0BA3tY77rLz 7zTjOghz4jdihoUeRdM4zu6YzexFhLVdDi+vJgCwwiac+QNPa0bi8ZKSEpyaE+lLF4Xp iMBmGlZ21HNVyhA2V44Ngg8pxEGI8UAVRFoa7MIfaCd0wtEs/2Fy4Dm/0OObBCQzMqyu d+Kw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+Z15zOF2sKwVXL2LFLFjulP/fqtwqSSKmEq+cBw2tcA=; b=ezANXIgc9BmceId6My+7Gqn1VJRV/6UOgzRClRK+FWBYT9A1MeN+7MgLm0jtiFKS3v yVsnAznwz7t9OuilsA6+e431iiaoaU2/PG/n3Cm7PGfSr2RlwJYJpt2cM7ndFKfgsRL0 t775sVMRsuTGlgUeXL78QIxeMgdvLgBTK6ZNP+jkNnb3Zm/X94h/M4DEYT/uIep63zOi 9p737/ugr7UQ43fyarL2Ghuo2xPM9WKyXRcBtpVja1FGmbQvCwhtLUraSxRIm2T32FoC GatLdL8AGFPxwxheuFkord6IX0jzLMKqTKy72j1zFBuelJAi0ITG5Xijg+Vdft1wRxqy 8sKA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531yHeUQHG7eutrIv6CVGyWQofr0iB/i3cokQJjiM5u1n91fhBil /nWsltA8jNTQtgJ830vVy6+SUuK/C4qEmRjCgHI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyn65PH10I60DgII1N96KuJKBv7czdd/g6HGWfqB97PzlD8LoxLGc4BoKXDSyXQiE9SXFhoz/cumsifteTOERY= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:3011:: with SMTP id f17mr1844826ual.118.1627652465487; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:41:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4B5C8DD7-8F64-4459-94E5-089CBDB04461@akamai.com> <111093F7-270D-4D12-95AB-60BACB9B6ABA@akamai.com> <99A8A55B-3C43-432F-8E51-47B4FEF59E47@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <99A8A55B-3C43-432F-8E51-47B4FEF59E47@akamai.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 08:40:39 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Holland, Jake" Cc: "mops@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000005f34705c8575fec" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in particular) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 13:41:12 -0000 --00000000000005f34705c8575fec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Jake, On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:59 PM Holland, Jake wrote: > Hi Spencer, > > From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF > > Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM > > > > This was a very interesting side meeting. > > Thanks! > > > Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and > > where the notes would be posted? > > I was thinking I'd send a follow-up message to mops and > webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video > once it's posted (there may be a slight delay). > > If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I=E2=80=99ll > probably also send one more follow-up message to mops, > webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested > parties to join, unless I get different guidance. > > If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF > context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have > been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome: > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-dorms/ > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-cbacc/ > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi/ > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-mnat/ > > (NB: I'll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting > tomorrow.) > > If you want to get involved in the overall project including > the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that > might be tangential to mboned, I'd also encourage joining the > W3C list: > https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/ > > If you're able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly > on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August > 4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC). The details are here: > https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html > > Best regards, > Jake > This is all very helpful! Thanks for the quick response. Do you think a mailing list would be useful for coordinating things among various venues? If so, please let me know - I know how to request that. It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue before IETF 112, but if you decide that you do, please let me know - I'd love to help with that too= . Best, Spencer --00000000000005f34705c8575fec Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Jake,=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:= 59 PM Holland, Jake <jholland@aka= mai.com> wrote:
Hi Spencer,

From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM
>
> This was a very interesting side meeting.

Thanks!

> Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and
> where the notes would be posted?

I was thinking I'd send a follow-up message to mops and
webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video
once it's posted (there may be a slight delay).

If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I=E2=80=99ll
probably also send one more follow-up message to mops,
webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested
parties to join, unless I get different guidance.

If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF
context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have
been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome:
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie= tf-mboned-dorms/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie= tf-mboned-cbacc/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-= mboned-ambi/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-= mboned-mnat/

(NB: I'll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting
tomorrow.)

If you want to get involved in the overall project including
the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that
might be tangential to mboned, I'd also encourage joining the
W3C list:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mu= lticast/

If you're able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly
on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August
4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC).=C2=A0 The details are here: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Publi= c/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html

Best regards,
Jake

This is all very helpful! Thanks f= or the quick response.

Do you think a mailing list= would be useful for coordinating things among various venues? If so, pleas= e let me know - I know how to request that.=C2=A0

= It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue before IETF 112, but if y= ou decide that you do, please let me know - I'd love to help with that= =C2=A0too.

Best,

Spencer= =C2=A0
--00000000000005f34705c8575fec-- From nobody Fri Jul 30 06:58:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB293A2B2C for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:58:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=krose.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jsXXGphOh92t for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com (mail-wr1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EEFF3A2B28 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id b13so585396wrs.3 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:58:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=krose.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6X0zYvLaZVsdRDLOLhB7faJgCN2w7wLXY+x1I6+iW4I=; b=ZlQoSuysfeXpHANjl/kf29ha18zLZ5PZtqdQkcOxNP9o8KKV4/fFrnFm9y/LvhDqYB WZkONN7s+9OGoHwMtxojAOAGAoM0a6hIeCJmB24CVDVZ7RO6Dhl5ImqOPMasifFPnTtD m7Ub89hHOqiH9FYD0S4LAG+ecT8JjuAPflaFU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6X0zYvLaZVsdRDLOLhB7faJgCN2w7wLXY+x1I6+iW4I=; b=HuM2/xi3elwKFXYmq5FEQufAjGbR9wKfTsiU+b0XcNgCH8fUfYl8kxgEpZHn8u4fxK AcoFGkuBxn3izbghtRgRO2IwrD2icbzaICzpRr5fi7MLe+zBbU4sI+5dlF2/c19KpAlG uCXPHq/bgq/55vyooopasOZ3h3RJIVTdby4dJNu5OTrrEUCrFwmT5jQ7AR06p7OQyvZf Ct9pPPKvM0dTNVf8qp9+aS4Xnd/d3HTZuClMsb/beoMSsOTQkvtcpT5d3D6IEELongjz gwM6ixhu+E7ap46lp+vC0clS+zXE7dvwGA/8FMPS/xmTY0Y2S4W1pujNbAl/JAcSQDTk Z5RQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5337adc1+SxjCoTbd/QjeT6DUxi2whwK8fzeTng2mRmBQGbljX+s UY9wq2mxEhHAHOprBMovIU5TfU3wfbqOe88bGa03eg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwtqZcFg3ZP0qUANzqbWK5VMKlIqTMRzIXuQi70+Njb8RRGHiejy2Agub3O6AUrSoGUmICykGjzHdYN/3Sj06I= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:1841:: with SMTP id c1mr3061475wri.423.1627653506562; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:58:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4B5C8DD7-8F64-4459-94E5-089CBDB04461@akamai.com> <111093F7-270D-4D12-95AB-60BACB9B6ABA@akamai.com> <99A8A55B-3C43-432F-8E51-47B4FEF59E47@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Kyle Rose Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:58:15 -0400 Message-ID: To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Cc: "Holland, Jake" , "mops@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000013933805c8579dc5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in particular) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 13:58:35 -0000 --00000000000013933805c8579dc5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Given the existence of the new W3C multicast community group, one important consideration at this early stage of work is to make sure we develop a consistent, coherent vision. I would be in favor of a single mailing list until/unless we get to a point where responsibility can be assigned to groups working independently. Kyle On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:41 AM Spencer Dawkins at IETF < spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, Jake, > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:59 PM Holland, Jake wrote= : > >> Hi Spencer, >> >> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF >> > Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM >> > >> > This was a very interesting side meeting. >> >> Thanks! >> >> > Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and >> > where the notes would be posted? >> >> I was thinking I'd send a follow-up message to mops and >> webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video >> once it's posted (there may be a slight delay). >> >> If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I=E2=80=99ll >> probably also send one more follow-up message to mops, >> webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested >> parties to join, unless I get different guidance. >> >> If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF >> context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have >> been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome: >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-dorms/ >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-cbacc/ >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi/ >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-mnat/ >> >> (NB: I'll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting >> tomorrow.) >> >> If you want to get involved in the overall project including >> the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that >> might be tangential to mboned, I'd also encourage joining the >> W3C list: >> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/ >> >> If you're able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly >> on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August >> 4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC). The details are here: >> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html >> >> Best regards, >> Jake >> > > This is all very helpful! Thanks for the quick response. > > Do you think a mailing list would be useful for coordinating things among > various venues? If so, please let me know - I know how to request that. > > It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue before IETF 112, but if > you decide that you do, please let me know - I'd love to help with that t= oo. > > Best, > > Spencer > -- > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops > --00000000000013933805c8579dc5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Giv= en the existence of the new W3C multicast community group, one important co= nsideration at this early stage of work is to make sure we develop a consis= tent, coherent vision. I would be in favor of a single mailing list until/u= nless we get to a point where responsibility can be assigned to groups work= ing independently.

Kyle

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:41 AM Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com= > wrote:
Hi, Jake,=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:59 P= M Holland, Jake <jholland@akamai.com> wrote:
Hi Spencer,

From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM
>
> This was a very interesting side meeting.

Thanks!

> Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and
> where the notes would be posted?

I was thinking I'd send a follow-up message to mops and
webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video
once it's posted (there may be a slight delay).

If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I=E2=80=99ll
probably also send one more follow-up message to mops,
webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested
parties to join, unless I get different guidance.

If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF
context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have
been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome:
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie= tf-mboned-dorms/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie= tf-mboned-cbacc/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-= mboned-ambi/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-= mboned-mnat/

(NB: I'll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting
tomorrow.)

If you want to get involved in the overall project including
the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that
might be tangential to mboned, I'd also encourage joining the
W3C list:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mu= lticast/

If you're able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly
on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August
4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC).=C2=A0 The details are here: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Publi= c/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html

Best regards,
Jake

This is all very helpful! Thanks f= or the quick response.

Do you think a mailing list= would be useful for coordinating things among various venues? If so, pleas= e let me know - I know how to request that.=C2=A0

= It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue before IETF 112, but if y= ou decide that you do, please let me know - I'd love to help with that= =C2=A0too.

Best,

Spencer= =C2=A0
--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops
--00000000000013933805c8579dc5-- From nobody Fri Jul 30 07:02:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA5B3A2B3F for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:02:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.499, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, GB_SUMOF=5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QwfLlI8rRRuo for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F257F3A2B41 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id a201so275692ybg.12 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:02:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QZcFXzTXSPU0NNbT6M0khSqbXc1De2Y6FQHOkw2Jecg=; b=AVCTflNvxQODT7O4lMXOhl2jVlKUz60Atbw8d8Nl0qlDdHzLO5Y8OjmRKiH4pT2zo+ Yb722qhqKIBxix2eIYv4NnnwBKNJRDdBNYzYI19D0mg+BwqoTu6yLUmF652VXO3X0pm/ GeQ3NHQhWR4GKRrKlfbq7R+xVCVBIdOuaAZDde2u0DCG5LXieKZZ+8F2CvFCFKV80Ry5 hfUmLQ3xIT25EDLuP8uQdCXC9ZKwRTO/5RB4y9AhrlJx8J3xpjtmIiKKCDSDMV32XhAO 4HeojXahmLbwpvJjT8wFDTZrHV3IjJacIvhcUAAsAtQaUMAyRQ2hhNvQGkE+yF5CPZWg zSjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QZcFXzTXSPU0NNbT6M0khSqbXc1De2Y6FQHOkw2Jecg=; b=dHT27u60hJ87JqV9ZMzH7aq5CRIeIMLYvRT0Pu5OBo+95XdygJonnQYo03RMVF7NKI h72IcWVhuhTNXugEBSUYlaX16lIr5nqzY9eqN+8+q6z1SY1vMyfaFmj0slR9vEJxK6JF in+mr7JO+i/sml0Qm5Sgs9FNzuj337WIetgxcIdorEa7laPlpXHIQDTgArjbeaF9ME6X BC9HvTc43RsHEs0prIBRv8xIipm7hAZFVfW4Myb6PRdPUKu/ilQezFF6MsE4gDYxzKaf YXFShNRFgErZlahT86T3lM8GjdIjpPf5gTGsUMurcHuN7Q/n9nIa4+myVdalakUMjwzF Xh8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533TZm1DmmVoRKCzlOFaxcl0xfdEMup9WXWDnQQulUpqo36Rj9AK vJfmDkVWLbUtDBOQ0JCTeAZ9LiFqIrU8WYM0IOIT6Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyA4G6J/gfuqUMK5Hx/0Xg9MkoDbOr3rarbSKLLknqtfcj2qMBbKB6GSFwQMnmYlsM4DOKJSy1d45fDKV3ztag= X-Received: by 2002:a25:2386:: with SMTP id j128mr3675335ybj.26.1627653742027; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:02:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7C8E8AF7-02FA-4AD5-9A53-3A7539758C55@fb.com> <85EBC68C-0B48-4A45-8F72-7A3C82D28812@akamai.com> <863528193a4945c48498d0b5f01c4dd6@kau.se> <825FDDDF-E12A-4BFC-A489-3982E0DD6BBC@akamai.com> <3606E33E-A5CC-470F-8765-F7CBD84A8D6F@networked.media> In-Reply-To: <3606E33E-A5CC-470F-8765-F7CBD84A8D6F@networked.media> From: Ian Swett Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 10:02:10 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Ali C. Begen" Cc: Zaheduzzaman Sarker , Sergio Garcia Murillo , "mops@ietf.org" , Roberto Peon , Matt Joras , "Das, Dibakar" , Alan Frindell , "nathalie.romo-moreno@telekom.de" , =?UTF-8?Q?Anna_Brunstr=C3=B6m?= , David Schinazi , "markus.amend@telekom.de" , "quic@ietf.org" , Kirill Pugin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001cb46205c857ab15" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 14:02:29 -0000 --0000000000001cb46205c857ab15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 5:27 AM Ali C. Begen wrote: > > > > On Jul 30, 2021, at 5:42 AM, Ian Swett 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > > To frame this in statistical terms, the sum of multiple normal > distributions is a normal distribution with the sum of the means and a sum > of the variances( > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random_variables). > Since the standard deviation is the square root of the variance, the > standard deviation is dominated by the largest source of variation, and if > each link introduces some variance, it's really only the one that > introduces the most variation that matters. > > Sure, but that assumes independent distributions which does not much apply > in this case. But the point is still valid, there will likely be 1-2 > problematic hops in the entire ~10-20 e2e path. > Yes, assuming a normal distribution is almost certainly wrong, so I should have apologized up front for that. As long as the conclusion is valid for any plausible set of distributions, we should be good. > > > Given no link knows whether it's the dominant source of variation on > the path, I'd suggest every link pass along packets as soon as possible. > > Yes. > > > Obviously, link-layer error correction and other approaches which > increase reliability without introducing delay are still welcome and > valuable. > > +1, though improved reliability almost always comes at the cost of > increased delay (rtx, fec, etc.). --0000000000001cb46205c857ab15 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 5:27 AM Ali C= . Begen <ali.begen=3D40networked.media@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:


> On Jul 30, 2021, at 5:42 AM, Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.or= g> wrote:
>
> To frame this in statistical terms, the sum of multiple normal distrib= utions is a normal distribution with the sum of the means and a sum of the = variances(https://en.wikip= edia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random_variables).=C2=A0 Sinc= e the standard deviation is the square root of the variance, the standard d= eviation is dominated by the largest source of variation, and if each link = introduces some variance, it's really only the one that introduces the = most variation that matters.

Sure, but that assumes independent distributions which does not much apply = in this case. But the point is still valid, there will likely be 1-2 proble= matic hops in the entire ~10-20 e2e path.

Yes, assuming a normal distribution is almost certainly wrong, so I shou= ld have apologized up front for that.=C2=A0 As long as the conclusion is va= lid for any plausible set of distributions, we should be good.=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>=C2=A0 Given no link knows whether it's the dominant source of vari= ation on the path, I'd suggest every link pass along packets as soon as= possible.=C2=A0

Yes.

> Obviously, link-layer error correction and other approaches which incr= ease reliability without introducing delay are still welcome and valuable.<= br>
+1, though improved reliability almost always comes at the cost of increase= d delay (rtx, fec, etc.).
--0000000000001cb46205c857ab15-- From nobody Fri Jul 30 07:07:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 673AA3A2B61; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:07:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.904 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.904 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_SUMOF=5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y0XSWmA9J60K; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD9D83A22B7; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2d.google.com with SMTP id x66so2981973vsb.1; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:07:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pwRpArtpdIV965RUdbDgpQQQfwET3xWn51SJH6EgDjw=; b=t4Hx8BD6A+IOKMQNkMUdzqw1k33Djz8rMh6DXPrWfpk9bJgKyEHh2M68JrXYTeY3WP hL06VNjrN/hh8ZzobusuStwUcPIapvEyzxaPam59kzbaCeaS2dHgeTJszGUuWfVvHUCq vJ/se4puX1HIW8iblUyiSG0RsFzmmiM8a0d8IXkHLZ/htS6ZcRBMLD0YXWbMhUFQFN9A Wbvb5dk5U0doH/3m1APnHbJFj4tb90SlJcRcqY5yrBwdS+jjXFzyYGMFmRhEgOKkWevp ySICZkfcqkeNo3fX3ICx0PAGOVm7XpR2cpodD4UrObgV55tS5WIp7DAD1e4HYQxy7Jv4 NMbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pwRpArtpdIV965RUdbDgpQQQfwET3xWn51SJH6EgDjw=; b=qbtZXO2sFBTEcJi7Dw0HZa1UtsK4ofuhyuerHlADsj1XVetJrItcdOfwr9Kwe2mfeb Vvuz7BEx1RSbT06GcOdhgc4sXg5TaJklJ8B7q/vF8ITnpmTptRKs+Q/mPp+dP2uwqDws 1h5kh608Er/ecydpfq2/osmV/5FL31v2ItDev6YeRVeHzAAwCvgFxapJnJ2d1jPYUQQf f8WQFZspf0MVD+AYYS4YOxemilcOyVKOiAGG3OZtjpCdlGaz5mgrS+u4rdxEP+V8HLI7 EIhj3XLBjmMumkMrZzDqK1Ah8YgkLHoSGkz9+T9+lKztIe14c6OcCl1EBvqSjYOL1GDP mBrg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533JvV2w/Gh0j591uuzvnpVdKgDooYGZD0A4ypaqBnkrsxkjtDVQ Ruc6/IYTlpdpNq9A31OAgmUtKqMu21j0bl87Pgo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxQvezgp1Ts71SV6q4ZOfbFHMHQgCV1LdgzLXtULZzBBj7Rpa/Yz9zeppvw7lihq44o7M+jViJSmfvLVJDPjtY= X-Received: by 2002:a67:d71d:: with SMTP id p29mr1665784vsj.26.1627654039425; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:07:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7C8E8AF7-02FA-4AD5-9A53-3A7539758C55@fb.com> <85EBC68C-0B48-4A45-8F72-7A3C82D28812@akamai.com> <863528193a4945c48498d0b5f01c4dd6@kau.se> <825FDDDF-E12A-4BFC-A489-3982E0DD6BBC@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:06:52 -0500 Message-ID: To: Ian Swett Cc: "mops@ietf.org" , "Das, Dibakar" , "quic@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d6579405c857bc94" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] Reminder: Video Ingest over QUIC Side Meeting Friday 7/30 18:00 UTC X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 14:07:25 -0000 --000000000000d6579405c857bc94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Trimming down to just the mailing lists, because I was getting rejection messages from AVTCORE because of too many addresses in To/CC ... On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 9:43 PM Ian Swett wrote: > TLDR: Ideally, handling reordering on the receiving host will > reduce user latency and be cheaper for everyone. > > Changing the TCP ecosystem is slow, so I can't advise immediately doing > this for TCP traffic, but doing this now for QUIC(and maybe documenting i= t > in Manageability?) seems viable. If we wait longer, the ecosystem will b= e > ossified. I'm not sure anyone is willing to introduce intentional > reordering to GREASE the loss detection system and ensure implementations > adapt, but I'll discuss if that's something we would do for some traffic > when sending multi-packet bursts. > > I believe the vast majority of QUIC applications would benefit from > increased reordering if it reduced latency and buffering. In TCP, you ca= n > detect reordering from the sequence number. But for QUIC, the metadata i= s > encrypted, so a given network can only attempt to reduce reordering in a > much narrower context, which is much less useful. Add into that the fact > you don't know the application, and the benefits of delaying packets with= in > the network/path become even more difficult to reason about. > I utterly and completely agree with what Ian says here (and echo Jake's subsequent +1), and I note that although we seem to be keeping "multipath QUIC" on the QUIC back-burner, applications that manage multiple paths at the application level, especially if those paths are largely divergent, make those benefits even further more difficult to reason about. So maybe "bringing on the grease for reordering" would be a great thing to do, before the network elements start trying to be helpful. Best, Spencer > To frame this in statistical terms, the sum of multiple normal > distributions is a normal distribution with the sum of the means and a su= m > of the variances( > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random_variable= s). > Since the standard deviation is the square root of the variance, the > standard deviation is dominated by the largest source of variation, and i= f > each link introduces some variance, it's really only the one that > introduces the most variation that matters. Given no link knows whether > it's the dominant source of variation on the path, I'd suggest every link > pass along packets as soon as possible. Obviously, link-layer error > correction and other approaches which increase reliability without > introducing delay are still welcome and valuable. > > Thanks, Ian > > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 2:10 PM Zaheduzzaman Sarker < > zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com> wrote: > >> I would say this is not specific to media over QUIC. However, a potentia= l >> solution to this could boost the deployment of potential radio technolog= ies >> ( for example - Unacknowledgement Mode (UM) of RLC in cellular networks) >> which might actually help low latency media usecases. >> >> >> >> BR >> >> Zahed >> >> >> >> On 2021-07-29, 22:35, "QUIC on behalf of Sergio Garcia Murillo" < >> quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Just for clarification, if this needs to be handled, this should be >> handled at QUIC level and it is not an specific problem for the Media ov= er >> QUIC protocol, right? >> >> >> >> El jue., 29 jul. 2021 18:15, Holland, Jake > 40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> escribi=C3=B3: >> >> Hi Anna, >> >> >> >> (And replacing Nathalie=E2=80=99s email with the correct one, hopefully) >> >> >> >> That was not quite my understanding, no. Sorry if I opened this >> discussion poorly. In Nathalie=E2=80=99s initial response, she clarifie= d that it=E2=80=99s >> configurable, including the option to disable the reordering buffer. >> >> >> >> However, I understood this as an option available to the service provide= r >> operating the MP-DCCP split path proxies that tunnel the carried traffic= , >> not necessarily to the endpoints or the applications having their traffi= c >> split. >> >> >> >> Depending on how it=E2=80=99s deployed, this may or may not be a problem= for >> particular endpoints, but I couldn=E2=80=99t tell if there was an obviou= s or easy >> way for an application to select the use case (particularly one that is >> just trying to use QUIC and transparently getting traffic-splitting >> delivery) in a way that the operator will understand, so I thought it be= st >> to raise the point for discussion. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Jakean/listinfo/mops >> >> --000000000000d6579405c857bc94 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Trimming down to just the mailing lists, because I wa= s getting rejection messages from AVTCORE because of too many addresses in = To/CC ...

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 9:43 PM Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= wrote:
TLDR: Ideally, handling reordering on the receiving host will= reduce=C2=A0user=C2=A0latency and be cheaper for everyone.

<= /div>
Changing the TCP ecosystem is slow, so I can't advise immedia= tely doing this for TCP traffic, but doing this now for QUIC(and maybe docu= menting it in Manageability?) seems viable.=C2=A0 If we wait longer, the=C2= =A0ecosystem will be ossified.=C2=A0 I'm not sure anyone is willing to = introduce intentional reordering to GREASE the loss detection system and en= sure implementations adapt, but I'll discuss if that's something we= would do for some traffic when sending multi-packet bursts.

I believe the vast majority of QUIC applications woul= d benefit from increased reordering if it reduced latency and buffering.=C2= =A0 In TCP, you can detect reordering from the sequence number.=C2=A0 But f= or QUIC, the metadata is encrypted, so a given network can only attempt to = reduce reordering in a much narrower context, which is much less useful.=C2= =A0 Add into that the fact you don't know the application, and the bene= fits of delaying packets within the network/path become even more difficult= to reason about.

I utterly and= completely agree with what Ian says here (and echo Jake's subsequent= =C2=A0+1), and I note that although we seem to be keeping "multipath Q= UIC" on the QUIC back-burner, applications that manage multiple paths = at the application level, especially if those paths are largely divergent, = make those benefits even further more difficult to reason about.=C2=A0

So maybe "bringing on the grease for reordering&q= uot; would be a great thing to do, before the network elements start trying= =C2=A0to be helpful.=C2=A0

Best,

Spencer
=C2=A0
To frame this=C2=A0in statistical terms,= the sum of multiple normal distributions is a normal distribution with the= sum of the means and a sum of the variances(= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_of_normally_distributed_random_variables<= /a>).=C2=A0 Since the standard deviation is the square root of the variance= , the standard deviation is dominated by the largest source of variation, a= nd if each link introduces some variance, it's really only the one that= introduces the most variation that matters.=C2=A0 Given no link knows whet= her it's the dominant source of variation on the path, I'd suggest = every link pass along packets as soon as possible.=C2=A0 Obviously, link-la= yer error correction and other approaches which increase reliability withou= t introducing delay are still welcome and valuable.

= I would say this is not specific to media over QUIC. However, a potential s= olution to this could boost the deployment of potential radio technologies = ( for example - Unacknowledgement Mode (UM) of RLC in cellular networks) which might actually help low laten= cy media usecases.

= =C2=A0

= BR

= Zahed =C2=A0

=C2=A0

On 2021-07-29, 22:35, &qu= ot;QUIC on behalf of Sergio Garcia Murillo" <quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of sergio= .garcia.murillo@gmail.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

Just for clarification, i= f this needs to be handled, this should be handled at QUIC level and it is = not an specific problem for the Media over QUIC protocol, right?<= /u>

=C2=A0

El jue., 29 jul. 2021 18:= 15, Holland, Jake <jholland=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> escribi=C3=B3:

Hi Anna,

=C2=A0

(And replacing Nathalie=E2=80=99s email with the corre= ct one, hopefully)

=C2=A0

That was not quite my understanding, no.=C2=A0 Sorry i= f I opened this discussion poorly.=C2=A0 In Nathalie=E2=80=99s initial resp= onse, she clarified that it=E2=80=99s configurable, including the option to= disable the reordering buffer.

=C2=A0

However, I understood this as an option available to t= he service provider operating the MP-DCCP split path proxies that tunnel th= e carried traffic, not necessarily to the endpoints or the applications hav= ing their traffic split.

=C2=A0

Depending on how it=E2=80=99s deployed, this may or ma= y not be a problem for particular endpoints, but I couldn=E2=80=99t tell if= there was an obvious or easy way for an application to select the use case= (particularly one that is just trying to use QUIC and transparently getting traffic-splitting delivery) in a way that the op= erator will understand, so I thought it best to raise the point for discuss= ion.

=C2=A0

Best,

Jakean/listinfo/mops

--000000000000d6579405c857bc94-- From nobody Fri Jul 30 07:10:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D4D53A2B72 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:10:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id abYmXo_H3Idt for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x935.google.com (mail-ua1-x935.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::935]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 998873A2B71 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x935.google.com with SMTP id d6so4042677uav.2 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:10:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2YtkaW6WVdoRYszHe0Vu1VFTzMKmkJ9beWAAtH9I7nI=; b=gWLYMkgBilCPzBkEL7FfXbqsELwDbBa3KKhLayx02N9sDTeL336yBqts9RObKCq8iy O51PpAIeLuf3kjgBPa86LpQxYIWp9UyVPLb19gFlNaqOnbcxPOBjDWXJULD2CVI6VkoX g9rqUCPz9uBJ+AqFb28zGVGuIIwkI9rsEAvXiG5ByxWgCB7P0E8XCOKIlkNQ4SnMRvqj F+z/eqXi2Gz4ibDd5pYN2m0IcmsuOKAQk227R5mSGt67G0luSUreC0thJ8NrxcezIr9u z6FZXw7P52onrDgJkpYASqt9zLfal1RMGoYJBLfq4uM8XGSoudNGjBL/zCfxSAHU2c8K SpFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2YtkaW6WVdoRYszHe0Vu1VFTzMKmkJ9beWAAtH9I7nI=; b=OMn9qPJJJR7YI8BsHYP2b3DW4yj4/V88NiSz/81MSkij/DMAmlLQq12uKVX/WJJifb ZVU/rR+96kwdzc538RnEYHCf7fKCStNvJ8S2XLFA4u1dyJH3VAC+vyq2rTea/E7qbS9S anOqJtV8QFBap/70AQ3PKbSDJ2bWlw4AoeF0uzba2b/pIJiCUW2BusfYUSHdJmXQ0pYB HinhtS8/YxIaJPUQnNp8UJu0g4WPwO2gJv8NEMj0Mouv3BurAK9Hv6V6mbVULZk1kYt4 qw6O2pEPX3XbhQOEOkNuqfYC/Mujouv1F/r6pc7nGLEvlt5bG2v4aXwff0F83QSn8IBc kClw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530uhfBXdd7fkQbeY1EGfcz19t78BGQpmiBSZ91qMmFGztpS6Sgg iVfKsZaLm9D1IbEoauUA9WwNDPxWVfiRUWfzQ5M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwWUwA30fUOu+Gqo6vbeBjtbH8X3BcOYeVIzogH4xsW+7g+qOQpeBxWcdQ97CHRe+ys/DdncWfKSS2Z/Mncljs= X-Received: by 2002:a9f:2f14:: with SMTP id x20mr2002920uaj.104.1627654227081; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:10:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4B5C8DD7-8F64-4459-94E5-089CBDB04461@akamai.com> <111093F7-270D-4D12-95AB-60BACB9B6ABA@akamai.com> <99A8A55B-3C43-432F-8E51-47B4FEF59E47@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:10:00 -0500 Message-ID: To: Kyle Rose Cc: "Holland, Jake" , "mops@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000005bcad05c857c8e7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in particular) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 14:10:34 -0000 --00000000000005bcad05c857c8e7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Kyle, On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 8:58 AM Kyle Rose wrote: > Given the existence of the new W3C multicast community group, one > important consideration at this early stage of work is to make sure we > develop a consistent, coherent vision. I would be in favor of a single > mailing list until/unless we get to a point where responsibility can be > assigned to groups working independently. > Makes sense to me, even if it's only used for coordination, and all of the technical work goes somewhere else. Do you and/or Jake have thoughts about whether that needs to be a new mailing list, or whether something that already exists is fit for purpose? Best, Spencer > Kyle > > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:41 AM Spencer Dawkins at IETF < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi, Jake, >> >> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:59 PM Holland, Jake >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Spencer, >>> >>> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF >>> > Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM >>> > >>> > This was a very interesting side meeting. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> > Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and >>> > where the notes would be posted? >>> >>> I was thinking I'd send a follow-up message to mops and >>> webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video >>> once it's posted (there may be a slight delay). >>> >>> If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I=E2=80=99ll >>> probably also send one more follow-up message to mops, >>> webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested >>> parties to join, unless I get different guidance. >>> >>> If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF >>> context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have >>> been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome: >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-dorms/ >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-cbacc/ >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi/ >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-mnat/ >>> >>> (NB: I'll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting >>> tomorrow.) >>> >>> If you want to get involved in the overall project including >>> the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that >>> might be tangential to mboned, I'd also encourage joining the >>> W3C list: >>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/ >>> >>> If you're able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly >>> on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August >>> 4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC). The details are here: >>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Jake >>> >> >> This is all very helpful! Thanks for the quick response. >> >> Do you think a mailing list would be useful for coordinating things amon= g >> various venues? If so, please let me know - I know how to request that. >> >> It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue before IETF 112, but i= f >> you decide that you do, please let me know - I'd love to help with that = too. >> >> Best, >> >> Spencer >> -- >> Mops mailing list >> Mops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops >> > --00000000000005bcad05c857c8e7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Kyle,=C2=A0

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 8:= 58 AM Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org&= gt; wrote:
Given the existence of the new W= 3C multicast community group, one important consideration at this early sta= ge of work is to make sure we develop a consistent, coherent vision. I woul= d be in favor of a single mailing list until/unless we get to a point where= responsibility can be assigned to groups working independently.

Makes sense to me,=C2=A0even if it's = only used for coordination,=C2=A0and all of the=C2=A0technical work goes so= mewhere else.=C2=A0

Do you and/or Jake have though= ts about whether that needs to be a new mailing list, or whether something = that already exists is fit for purpose?

Best,

Spencer
=C2=A0
K= yle

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:41 AM Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdaw= kins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, Jake,=C2=A0
<= br>
On Thu,= Jul 29, 2021 at 4:59 PM Holland, Jake <jholland@akamai.com> wrote:
Hi Spencer,

From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM
>
> This was a very interesting side meeting.

Thanks!

> Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and
> where the notes would be posted?

I was thinking I'd send a follow-up message to mops and
webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video
once it's posted (there may be a slight delay).

If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I=E2=80=99ll
probably also send one more follow-up message to mops,
webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested
parties to join, unless I get different guidance.

If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF
context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have
been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome:
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie= tf-mboned-dorms/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie= tf-mboned-cbacc/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-= mboned-ambi/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-= mboned-mnat/

(NB: I'll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting
tomorrow.)

If you want to get involved in the overall project including
the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that
might be tangential to mboned, I'd also encourage joining the
W3C list:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mu= lticast/

If you're able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly
on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August
4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC).=C2=A0 The details are here: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Publi= c/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html

Best regards,
Jake

This is all very helpful! Thanks f= or the quick response.

Do you think a mailing list= would be useful for coordinating things among various venues? If so, pleas= e let me know - I know how to request that.=C2=A0

= It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue before IETF 112, but if y= ou decide that you do, please let me know - I'd love to help with that= =C2=A0too.

Best,

Spencer= =C2=A0
--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops
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DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_ABOUTYOU=0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LF_GPGNfiT1H for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe36.google.com (mail-vs1-xe36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83AFD3A3037 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe36.google.com with SMTP id ba4so2797301vsb.5 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:15:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZQ7l3NOW6i2+S2mR9GTQRSe++0SlK841x7CTR5OMebE=; b=lTlayQq+X7cShr4JXsfWKUVfF26uMDs+pZY1P7rkjxkXTm47Mi9f02CJ43EEHcR8VF +EqlMmkFZzmnWT7meRXK75pWa1BVcnZctmonkXtsPOwa4v47RmxGOlLndczYsUCEkmxW YGfpAK2vcuQ9u8ODCL7HQVNoML9CFKP5ekRxwhMXcck2YSOT4AN01v9vzSzuBk+Li+Rz r1qL5Eloe6XLBnj+I4xLp3499YagSJZGMYeNLd/kHOIoKtUbMwn573+yCsPBF4BPMaG1 nHrqH10Ywky6xu94qVGtos502nKj3K2Ybb+1nzz+V99xPclfP1VLmFOYZ34aU1WcjUHX P4ZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZQ7l3NOW6i2+S2mR9GTQRSe++0SlK841x7CTR5OMebE=; b=PmbRFxV1MFfQHyL3inzsmXglhb//zTwEoOZZ2zZiqJt9TFlcetXcLAyjx8tZ4UiBgU O0sqBmaCLTCSYQNDq3sstj9zu3A2NjhD3EgpFlDVQS6HYhH3n0pq+/as0DXvUsAB4BMq UmjdgyBIXfHiur486m2eSUxQvAMNf2m+8QNJNyTsglrC0W7OQT5XhDoZDdE6j1AXolsE XsnotpA2YuVas6k3CNoQ0d+00Ah70e98xm5QlqmI+67UEVLB3cnfS3eKgxuQSDvytkfS qjcONAgu5H5MnJ1zd+fFuJ/Dk3+dseIGu4DM2FMW3VsLpryzJBNMIBP3knpyzLiEHe+5 m6kQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5305cUI2foZu86eSWOULO3oEtwYqO5h6PpcIz9XJ997Y8C+gN0DR v/m/LyckYilvx+cagegPl1GRyWeKkB4bEnKExbY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyTQ04WHUNNDzbHm+zCT5R9brsVxxY5gSaEycqR3cPCCAN8Pq3VR6YjgKNSjcCu/OV/u3qQ9L3SazUlBJcRSJg= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f854:: with SMTP id b20mr2615241vsp.32.1627661722342; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:15:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4B5C8DD7-8F64-4459-94E5-089CBDB04461@akamai.com> <111093F7-270D-4D12-95AB-60BACB9B6ABA@akamai.com> <99A8A55B-3C43-432F-8E51-47B4FEF59E47@akamai.com> <0CB16D30-3B35-472F-A85E-8839F055CCD3@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <0CB16D30-3B35-472F-A85E-8839F055CCD3@akamai.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 11:14:55 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Holland, Jake" Cc: Kyle Rose Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c6584205c85986be" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:31:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in particular) X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 16:15:30 -0000 --000000000000c6584205c85986be Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Jake, On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:52 AM Holland, Jake wrote: > Hi Spencer, > > > > mops is pretty clearly the wrong discussion venue :) (moved to bcc, so > reply if you=E2=80=99d like to be on the thread...) > Good idea (and I wish I'd thought of trimming the cc: list earlier - or at least intentionally removing WISH and AVTCORE!) Because I agree that MOPS is not the right home (and Kyle and Leslie can override me on that), I added them back as bcc:, just because I'm drawing conclusions about your answer. No need to annoy them further. Thus far mboned has been my idea of the closest match, but I think > draft-krose-multicast-security gets a little hard to argue it=E2=80=99s i= n scope. > > > > And really, I think AMBI and to a lesser extent DORMS is in the same > boat. Although we got some early advice it could be done in mboned with > just some review from the security area due to not using any novel crypto > and the general approach being a well-established authentication strategy= , > it does touch on some security questions that are kind of a stretch for > mboned, especially when we try to consider it in a web security > requirements. And even more so if we want to bring back ALTA at some poi= nt > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-krose-mboned-alta/). > > > > Previously there has been a much heavier routing area overlap than > security area overlap in mboned, and you=E2=80=99d have to look back to m= sec (and > maybe some rmt) to have a closer match in membership. And a lot of the > people who might be interested in discussing multicast=E2=80=99s security > implications in a web security context might reasonably be much less > interested in some of the other mboned docs, and vice versa... > > > > I thought the best approach would probably be =E2=80=9Creopen msec=E2=80= =9D. Last time we > took that to secdispatch (with alta, maybe at 106 or so?) they said to co= me > back with more people, so that=E2=80=99s what I was trying to do for Nove= mber, if > webtransport didn=E2=80=99t want us. > The more we chat about homes for discussion (and especially coordination), the more I'm thinking that requesting a new mailing list, where interested people can work to coordinate at least two or three moving pieces that span multiple areas, is the right thing to do - not for any solutions work, but just to make sure that you (and the rest of us) can make sure that we haven't forgotten or overlooked anything that's necessary for success. I THINK you're talking about work that is of interest in SEC and ART (and W3C), and relying on expertise from RTG, OPS, and maybe even INT and TSV, so it should be pretty easy to find an AD to approve a request for a non-WG IETF mailing list. =F0=9F=98=9C If that sounds like a plan to you, the procedure for that request is at https://www.ietf.org/how/lists/nonwglist-guidelines/ (and you'll need to pick "an appropriate AD", so talking to your pick first is usually a good thing). You can also bikeshed on the name of the mailing list privately with your AD. If you want to look at an example, the most recent non-WG mailing list is https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e2ee, I believe. The usual things that trip requesters up (in my experience) was not providing both a summary, and a bit more detailed description, and not providing at least one proposed administrator. Finally - I'm not sure what I've actually said to you about this, but I'm glad you're doing this work, and even more glad that you're bringing it to the IETF. Obviously, it matters to the Internet. Best, Spencer Best, > > Jake > > > > *From: *Spencer Dawkins at IETF > *Date: *Fri,2021-07-30 at 7:10 AM > *To: *Kyle Rose > *Cc: *"Holland, Jake" , "mops@ietf.org" < > mops@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in > particular) > > > > Hi, Kyle, > > > > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 8:58 AM Kyle Rose wrote: > > Given the existence of the new W3C multicast community group, one > important consideration at this early stage of work is to make sure we > develop a consistent, coherent vision. I would be in favor of a single > mailing list until/unless we get to a point where responsibility can be > assigned to groups working independently. > > > > Makes sense to me, even if it's only used for coordination, and all of > the technical work goes somewhere else. > > > > Do you and/or Jake have thoughts about whether that needs to be a new > mailing list, or whether something that already exists is fit for purpose= ? > > > > Best, > > > > Spencer > > > > Kyle > > > > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:41 AM Spencer Dawkins at IETF < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi, Jake, > > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:59 PM Holland, Jake wrote= : > > Hi Spencer, > > From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF > > Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM > > > > This was a very interesting side meeting. > > Thanks! > > > Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and > > where the notes would be posted? > > I was thinking I'd send a follow-up message to mops and > webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video > once it's posted (there may be a slight delay). > > If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I=E2=80=99ll > probably also send one more follow-up message to mops, > webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested > parties to join, unless I get different guidance. > > If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF > context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have > been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome: > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-dorms/ > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-cbacc/ > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi/ > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-mnat/ > > > (NB: I'll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting > tomorrow.) > > If you want to get involved in the overall project including > the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that > might be tangential to mboned, I'd also encourage joining the > W3C list: > https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/ > > > If you're able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly > on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August > 4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC). The details are here: > https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html > > > Best regards, > Jake > > > > This is all very helpful! Thanks for the quick response. > > > > Do you think a mailing list would be useful for coordinating things among > various venues? If so, please let me know - I know how to request that. > > > > It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue before IETF 112, but if > you decide that you do, please let me know - I'd love to help with that t= oo. > > > > Best, > > > > Spencer > > -- > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops > > > --000000000000c6584205c85986be Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Jake,=C2=A0

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:= 52 AM Holland, Jake <jholland@akamai.com> wrote:

Hi Spencer,

=C2=A0

mops is pretty clearly the wrong discussion venue :)= (moved to bcc, so reply if you=E2=80=99d like to be on the thread...)

<= /div>

Good idea (and I wish I'd t= hought of trimming the cc: list earlier - or at least intentionally removin= g WISH and AVTCORE!)

Because I agree that MOPS is = not the right home (and Kyle and Leslie can override me on that), I added t= hem back as bcc:, just because I'm drawing conclusions about your answe= r. No need to annoy them further.

=C2=A0Thus far mboned has been my idea of the= closest match, but I think draft-krose-multicast-security gets a little ha= rd to argue it=E2=80=99s in scope.

=C2=A0

And really, I think AMBI and to a lesser extent DORM= S is in the same boat.=C2=A0 Although we got some early advice it could be = done in mboned with just some review from the security area due to not usin= g any novel crypto and the general approach being a well-established authentication strategy, it does touch on some se= curity questions that are kind of a stretch for mboned, especially when we = try to consider it in a web security requirements.=C2=A0 And even more so i= f we want to bring back ALTA at some point (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-krose-mboned-al= ta/).

=C2=A0

Previously there has been a much heavier routing are= a overlap than security area overlap in mboned, and you=E2=80=99d have to l= ook back to msec (and maybe some rmt) to have a closer match in membership.= =C2=A0 And a lot of the people who might be interested in discussing multicast=E2=80=99s security implications in a web security = context might reasonably be much less interested in some of the other mbone= d docs, and vice versa...

=C2=A0

I thought the best approach would probably be =E2=80= =9Creopen msec=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 Last time we took that to secdispatch (with = alta, maybe at 106 or so?) they said to come back with more people, so that= =E2=80=99s what I was trying to do for November, if webtransport didn=E2=80=99t want us.


Th= e more we chat about homes for discussion (and especially coordination), th= e more I'm thinking that requesting a new mailing list, where intereste= d people can work to coordinate at least two or three moving pieces that sp= an multiple areas, is the right thing to do - not for any solutions work, b= ut just to make sure that you (and the rest of us) can make sure that we ha= ven't forgotten or overlooked anything that's necessary for success= .=C2=A0

I THINK you're talking about work that= is of interest in SEC and ART (and W3C), and relying on expertise=C2=A0fro= m RTG, OPS, and maybe even INT and TSV, so it should be pretty easy to find= an AD to approve a request for a non-WG IETF mailing list.=C2=A0=F0=9F=98= =9C

If that sounds like a plan to you, the procedu= re for that request is at=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/how/lists/nonwg= list-guidelines/ (and you'll need to pick "an appropriate AD&q= uot;, so talking to your pick first is usually a good thing). You can also = bikeshed on the name of the mailing list privately with your AD.=C2=A0

If you want to look at an example, the most recent non= -WG mailing list is=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e2ee, I believe. The usual t= hings that trip requesters up (in my experience) was not providing both a s= ummary, and a bit more detailed description, and not providing at least one= proposed administrator.=C2=A0

Finally - I'm n= ot sure what I've actually said to you about this, but I'm glad you= 're doing this work, and even more glad that you're bringing it to = the IETF. Obviously, it matters to the Internet.=C2=A0

=
Best,

Spencer

=C2=A0Best,

=

Jake

=C2=A0

From: = Spencer Dawkins at IE= TF <s= pencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri,2021-07-30 at 7:10 AM
To: Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org>
Cc: "Holland, Jake" <