From nobody Mon Jul 1 00:52:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B94712003E; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 00:52:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k7T-gM6JmmdN; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 00:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DA28120033; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 00:52:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=20757; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1561967526; x=1563177126; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=7mIU3VTZmqdqtBrWqG/KMZHBhYnZXK0W12jIR1MYvSA=; b=Zgnv8z48ftbE92mI1buT+lGVWDDMVX5SVwKdKsn6MqgmFghZ/LJ28Ipy U3hKKhZdswf6SmaWbvJlDBC1Sd+Bw63Dt2hdPUajdgK/qMI1V+kBvMpLS iCNvEexyohMiRJJQLeliij/vM2bweyPBx0+yh7isKBBwrj4QN1K/Cscmq E=; X-Files: signature.asc : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BVAACXuhld/xbLJq1lGgEBAQEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEHAgEBAQGBZ4EVgWyBBCEHhB2Ie4wHmm0CBwEBAQkDAQEfEAEBhEACgyU?= =?us-ascii?q?4EwEDAQEEAQECAQVtijcMhUoBAQEDASNRBQULCQIOCicDAgJGEQYTG4MHAYF?= =?us-ascii?q?7DwiIBJtrgTKFR4RtEIE0gVGKJYF/gTgfgh4uPoJWgiSCVDKCJgSMCodzWpV?= =?us-ascii?q?YCYIYgh+BC4MpjScbgxeKFIo+lBFYgXqCV4gQgwkCBAYFAhWBZyGBWDMaCBs?= =?us-ascii?q?VZQGCQQk1ggqDaopVPQMwjwkBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.63,438,1557187200"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="13796482" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 01 Jul 2019 07:52:04 +0000 Received: from [10.61.167.168] ([10.61.167.168]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x617q26W007264 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Jul 2019 07:52:03 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <8D7F2AE1-9F33-4BDB-A413-870BA37EE854@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7A3D637B-05DF-4EFA-8011-2B329655C0AF"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:52:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" To: Qin Wu References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.167.168, [10.61.167.168] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 07:52:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7A3D637B-05DF-4EFA-8011-2B329655C0AF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C6460DE7-847E-4C1A-ADF3-809B04B43CDA" --Apple-Mail=_C6460DE7-847E-4C1A-ADF3-809B04B43CDA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu wrote: >=20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org = ] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Eliot Lear > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5= 17:48 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: opsawg@ietf.org ; = mud@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in = MUD >=20 > Hi everyone, >=20 > A few of us are just trying to put out an initial draft that addresses = one gap in MUD (there are several). In a MUD file one can say that one = wants to access a controller in two ways: either "my-controller=E2=80=9D = meaning a controller that services devices of a particular MUD URL or a = =E2=80=9Ccontroller=E2=80=9D class that services devices based on a = particular class name of controller. >=20 > In either case, right now the administrator has to manually know and = populate information, to say - some device 1.2.3.4 is a controller, = either for MUD URL https://example.com/mud or = a class http://example.com/mudclass1 . = That can be laborious. To assist, we are examining ways to have a = controller declare itself as a candidate controller. >=20 > [Qin]: Since MUD in RFC8520 has already specify DNS extension and DHCP = extension, why not configure MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s = declaration? So the RESTFUL interface can be defined between NMS and = controller, if my understanding is correct. > I believe this is network initiated solution, you might have client = initiated solution, but probably more complicated than network initiated = solution. Can you say a few more words? I=E2=80=99m not sure I=E2=80=99m quite = following you. Eliot >=20 > That at least provides a hint to the administrator that this = particular device is capable of serving in a particular role. >=20 > To make that declaration, the device must- > Form the declaration; > Find the MUD manager; and > Send it. >=20 > Forming the declaration is easy: we can make this a YANG grouping and = then place it in various spots. >=20 > Finding the MUD manager depends on one question: > Was the device built to be a controller or is it a general purpose = device that has an app that is intended to be a controller? >=20 > If the device was built to be a controller, we can simply cram the = declaration into that devices own MUD file as an extension. If the = device is a general purpose computer, things get a bit more interesting. = In this case we have two choices: >=20 > Either create a MUD file that points somewhere internally - this = doesn=E2=80=99t seem very plug and play. > Make the declaration directly to the MUD manager. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m going to focus on the latter for the moment. It is easy = enough to create a RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a = mechanism to discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an = internal part of the network infrastructure. >=20 > Let me call this out plainly: letting the app itself directly call the = MUD manager requires that the MUD manager itself become exposed to the = user infrastructure, which is a change. >=20 > One possibility to address this is to incorporate the new RESTful = endpoint into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, which may already be = exposed. But that requires that ANIMA BRSKI be in play, which it may = not. >=20 > My thinking is that we do this work in two stages. First handle the = easy case, which is the MUD file extension, and then figure out how to = do the app version of this. >=20 > Thoughts? >=20 > Eliot --Apple-Mail=_C6460DE7-847E-4C1A-ADF3-809B04B43CDA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> = wrote:

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Eliot Lear
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5 17:48
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: opsawg@ietf.org; mud@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [OPSAWG] Declaring = something to be a controller in MUD
 
Hi everyone,
 
A few of = us are just trying to put out an initial draft that addresses one gap in = MUD (there are several).  In a MUD file one can say that one wants = to access a controller in two ways: either "my-controller=E2=80=9D = meaning a controller that services devices of a particular MUD URL or a = =E2=80=9Ccontroller=E2=80=9D class that services devices based on a = particular class name of controller.
 
In = either case, right now the administrator has to manually know and = populate information, to say - some device 1.2.3.4 is a controller, = either for MUD URL https://example.com/mud or a class http://example.com/mudclass1. =  That can be laborious.  To assist, we are examining ways to = have a controller declare itself as a candidate controller.
 
[Qin]: Since = MUD in RFC8520 has already specify DNS extension and DHCP extension, why = not configure MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s declaration? So the = RESTFUL interface can be defined between NMS and controller, if my = understanding is correct.
I believe this is network initiated solution, you might have = client initiated solution, but probably more complicated than network = initiated solution.

Can you say a few more words?  I=E2=80=99m not = sure I=E2=80=99m quite following you.

Eliot
 
 That at least provides = a hint to the administrator that this particular device is capable of = serving in a particular role.
 
To make that declaration, the device must-
  • Form the = declaration;
  • Find the MUD = manager; and
  • Send it.
 
Forming = the declaration is easy: we can make this a YANG grouping and then place = it in various spots.
 
Finding the MUD manager depends on one question:
  • Was the device = built to be a controller or is it a general purpose device that has an = app that is intended to be a controller?
 
If the = device was built to be a controller, we can simply cram the declaration = into that devices own MUD file as an extension.  If the device is a = general purpose computer, things get a bit more interesting.  In = this case we have two choices:
 
  • Either = create a MUD file that points somewhere internally - this doesn=E2=80=99t = seem very plug and play.
  • Make = the declaration directly to the MUD manager.
 
I=E2=80=99= m going to focus on the latter for the moment.  It is easy enough = to create a RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a = mechanism to discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an = internal part of the network infrastructure.
 
Let me = call this out plainly: letting the app itself directly call the MUD = manager requires that the MUD manager itself become exposed to the user = infrastructure, which is a change.
 
One = possibility to address this is to incorporate the new RESTful endpoint = into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, which may already be exposed. =  But that requires that ANIMA BRSKI be in play, which it may = not.
 
My = thinking is that we do this work in two stages.  First handle the = easy case, which is the MUD file extension, and then figure out how to = do the app version of this.
 
Thoughts?
 
Eliot

= --Apple-Mail=_C6460DE7-847E-4C1A-ADF3-809B04B43CDA-- --Apple-Mail=_7A3D637B-05DF-4EFA-8011-2B329655C0AF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXRm7oQAKCRBugA9nE248 uHQsAKC4DUk9BsbeQr+WRh2SzU5r1ztj/ACgt6lGsYiEsNkV2k1LSOSZjYxcSlk= =wvJe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_7A3D637B-05DF-4EFA-8011-2B329655C0AF-- From nobody Mon Jul 1 01:49:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A4FA120099; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 01:49:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="13798515" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 01 Jul 2019 08:48:57 +0000 Received: from [10.61.163.11] ([10.61.163.11]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x618muHZ016656 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Jul 2019 08:48:57 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <1539951A-88FB-4E6D-9623-2AE5B2924125@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_65C116C0-416E-4A03-B51C-849B9FB665AB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 10:48:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" To: Qin Wu References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.163.11, [10.61.163.11] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 08:49:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_65C116C0-416E-4A03-B51C-849B9FB665AB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_25482C61-C038-4E40-91D7-B84DF2453752" --Apple-Mail=_25482C61-C038-4E40-91D7-B84DF2453752 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 1 Jul 2019, at 10:23, Qin Wu > wrote: >=20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Eliot Lear [mailto:lear@cisco.com = ] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 = 15:52 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Qin Wu > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: opsawg@ietf.org ; = mud@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a = controller in MUD >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu > wrote: >=20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org = ] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Eliot Lear > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5= 17:48 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: opsawg@ietf.org ; = mud@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in = MUD >=20 > Hi everyone, >=20 > A few of us are just trying to put out an initial draft that addresses = one gap in MUD (there are several). In a MUD file one can say that one = wants to access a controller in two ways: either "my-controller=E2=80=9D = meaning a controller that services devices of a particular MUD URL or a = =E2=80=9Ccontroller=E2=80=9D class that services devices based on a = particular class name of controller. >=20 > In either case, right now the administrator has to manually know and = populate information, to say - some device 1.2.3.4 is a controller, = either for MUD URL https://example.com/mud or = a class http://example.com/mudclass1 . = That can be laborious. To assist, we are examining ways to have a = controller declare itself as a candidate controller. >=20 > [Qin]: Since MUD in RFC8520 has already specify DNS extension and DHCP = extension, why not configure MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s = declaration? So the RESTFUL interface can be defined between NMS and = controller, if my understanding is correct. > I believe this is network initiated solution, you might have client = initiated solution, but probably more complicated than network initiated = solution. >=20 > Can you say a few more words? I=E2=80=99m not sure I=E2=80=99m quite = following you. > [Qin]: What I am suggesting is NMS preconfigures the MUD manager with = controller=E2=80=99s declaration information, during DHCP process or DNS = process, the controller=E2=80=99s declaration can be returned > To the router or switch between the thing and MUD manager or return to = the thing, the router or the thing can access controller through = controller delclartion. >=20 > If the MUD manager also needs to be advertised to the thing, DHCP = Discovery or DNS process can be leveraged. In this case, NMS needs to = preconfigure DHCP server with MUD manager information. I apologize, but I=E2=80=99m not quite following. Let=E2=80=99s step = through what I=E2=80=99m trying to solve, and then let=E2=80=99s step = through your flow. Device sends a MUD URL X that points to a MUD file that says to permit = ip access to my-controller. Now- how do we determine who =E2=80=9Cmy-controller=E2=80=9D for MUD URL = X is? Ways to do that: Ask the administrator (pre-configuration) Provide the administrator hints Controller says who it can control (by MUD URLs, etc) or Device says which controllers (by MUD URL) are good candidates Other If it=E2=80=99s the controller, then we can do a RESTful interface. If = it=E2=80=99s the device, we already have a communication path. Nothing = stops us from doing both. So now insert your approach. What steps would you take? Eliot >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 > That at least provides a hint to the administrator that this = particular device is capable of serving in a particular role. >=20 > To make that declaration, the device must- > Form the declaration; > Find the MUD manager; and > Send it. >=20 > Forming the declaration is easy: we can make this a YANG grouping and = then place it in various spots. >=20 > Finding the MUD manager depends on one question: > Was the device built to be a controller or is it a general purpose = device that has an app that is intended to be a controller? >=20 > If the device was built to be a controller, we can simply cram the = declaration into that devices own MUD file as an extension. If the = device is a general purpose computer, things get a bit more interesting. = In this case we have two choices: >=20 > Either create a MUD file that points somewhere internally - this = doesn=E2=80=99t seem very plug and play. > Make the declaration directly to the MUD manager. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m going to focus on the latter for the moment. It is easy = enough to create a RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a = mechanism to discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an = internal part of the network infrastructure. >=20 > Let me call this out plainly: letting the app itself directly call the = MUD manager requires that the MUD manager itself become exposed to the = user infrastructure, which is a change. >=20 > One possibility to address this is to incorporate the new RESTful = endpoint into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, which may already be = exposed. But that requires that ANIMA BRSKI be in play, which it may = not. >=20 > My thinking is that we do this work in two stages. First handle the = easy case, which is the MUD file extension, and then figure out how to = do the app version of this. >=20 > Thoughts? >=20 > Eliot >=20 --Apple-Mail=_25482C61-C038-4E40-91D7-B84DF2453752 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8


On 1 Jul 2019, at 10:23, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> = wrote:

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Eliot Lear [mailto:lear@cisco.com] 
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9= =97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 15:52
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: opsawg@ietf.org; mud@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [OPSAWG] Declaring = something to be a controller in MUD
 
 


On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> = wrote:
 
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Eliot Lear
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9= =97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5 17:48
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA= =BA: opsawg@ietf.org; mud@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in = MUD
 
Hi everyone,
 
A few of us are just trying to put out an initial draft that = addresses one gap in MUD (there are several).  In a MUD file one = can say that one wants to access a controller in two ways: either = "my-controller=E2=80=9D meaning a controller that = services devices of a particular MUD URL or a =E2=80=9Ccontroller=E2=80=9D class that = services devices based on a particular class name of controller.
 
In either case, right now the administrator = has to manually know and populate information, to say - some device = 1.2.3.4 is a controller, either for MUD URL https://example.com/mud or a class http://example.com/mudclass1.  That can be = laborious.  To assist, we are examining ways to have a controller = declare itself as a candidate controller.
 
[Qin]: Since = MUD in RFC8520 has already specify DNS extension and DHCP extension, why = not configure MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s declaration? So the = RESTFUL interface can be defined between NMS and controller, if my = understanding is correct.
I believe this = is network initiated solution, you might have client initiated solution, = but probably more complicated than network initiated = solution.
 
Can you = say a few more words?  I=E2=80=99m not sure I=E2=80=99m quite = following you.
[Qin]: What I am = suggesting is NMS preconfigures the MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s = declaration information, during DHCP process or DNS process, the = controller=E2=80=99s declaration can be returned
To the router or switch = between the thing and MUD manager or return to the thing, the router or = the thing can access controller through controller delclartion.
 
If the MUD = manager also needs to be advertised to the thing, DHCP Discovery or DNS = process can be leveraged. In this case, NMS needs to preconfigure DHCP = server with MUD manager = information.

I apologize, but I=E2=80=99m not quite = following.  Let=E2=80=99s step through what I=E2=80=99m trying to = solve, and then let=E2=80=99s step through your flow.


Device sends a MUD URL X that points to a MUD file that says = to permit ip access to my-controller.

Now- how do we determine who = =E2=80=9Cmy-controller=E2=80=9D for MUD URL X is?
Ways to do that:
  • Ask the = administrator (pre-configuration)
  • Provide the = administrator hints
    • Controller says = who it can control (by MUD URLs, etc) or
    • Device says = which controllers (by MUD URL) are good candidates
  • Other

If it=E2=80=99s the controller, then we = can do a RESTful interface.  If it=E2=80=99s the device, we already = have a communication path.  Nothing stops us from doing = both.

So now = insert your approach.  What steps would you take?

Eliot



 
Eliot

 
 That at least provides = a hint to the administrator that this particular device is capable of = serving in a particular role.
 
To make that declaration, the device must-
  • Form the declaration;
  • Find = the MUD manager; and
  • Send = it.
 
Forming the declaration is easy: we can make = this a YANG grouping and then place it in various spots.
 
Finding the MUD manager depends on one = question:
  • Was the device built to be a controller or is = it a general purpose device that has an app that is intended to be a = controller?
 
If the device was built to be a controller, we = can simply cram the declaration into that devices own MUD file as an = extension.  If the device is a general purpose computer, things get = a bit more interesting.  In this case we have two choices:
 
  • Either create a MUD file that points somewhere = internally - this doesn=E2=80=99t = seem very plug and play.
  • Make = the declaration directly to the MUD manager.
 
I=E2=80=99m going to = focus on the latter for the moment.  It is easy enough to create a = RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a mechanism to = discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an internal part = of the network infrastructure.
 
Let me call this out plainly: letting the app = itself directly call the MUD manager requires that the MUD manager = itself become exposed to the user infrastructure, which is a change.
 
One possibility to address this is to = incorporate the new RESTful endpoint into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, = which may already be exposed.  But that requires that ANIMA BRSKI = be in play, which it may not.
 
My thinking is that we do this work in two = stages.  First handle the easy case, which is the MUD file = extension, and then figure out how to do the app version of this.
 
Thoughts?
 
Eliot
 

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=

You have been invited to the follo= wing event.

MUD/IoT onboarding

= When
Mon 2019-07-22 = 08:30 =E2=80=93 10:30 Eastern Time - Toronto
Where
C2 on 22st floor (map)
Calendar
mud@ietf.org<= /div>
Who
mcharlesr@gmail.com - organizer
mud@iet= f.org

Going (mud@ietf.org)= ?   Yes - <= a href=3D"https://www.google.com/calendar/event?action=3DRESPOND&eid=3D= N2JrcmlwMXFlcHB0dnUyaWFpNzIwa3N2N2IgbXVkQGlldGYub3Jn&rst=3D3&tok=3D= MTkjbWNoYXJsZXNyQGdtYWlsLmNvbTkzMzcwMjgyYzhjNzhkMTEzZGZkNTE2Mzg2YmQ0NDYwZGY= yMzllM2U&ctz=3DAmerica%2FToronto&hl=3Den&es=3D0" style=3D"color= :#20c;white-space:nowrap" itemprop=3D"url">Maybe - No    more options &r= aquo;

= Invitation from Google Calendar

You are receiving this courtesy em= ail at the account mud@ietf.org because you are an attendee of this event.<= /p>

To stop receiving future updates for this event, decline this event. = Alternatively you can sign up for a Google account at https://www.google.co= m/calendar/ and control your notification settings for your entire calendar= .

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2019 15:20:51 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Eliot Lear , "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD Thread-Index: AdUv3HjWBDQcYX3NS2OJHA5W7PRpmQ== Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 07:20:51 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.31.203] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAA49BC850nkgeml513mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 02:41:07 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 07:21:56 -0000 --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAA49BC850nkgeml513mbxchi_ 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Mon, 1 Jul 2019 10:25:57 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <230EB786-36AB-4E79-A6DD-20278E895763@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6AEA70B0-73A8-435F-A99B-2ED61626EACD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 12:25:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" To: Qin Wu References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.163.11, [10.61.163.11] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 10:26:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6AEA70B0-73A8-435F-A99B-2ED61626EACD Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_30DD97C1-D18E-49F7-9BC5-F03D465FB26C" --Apple-Mail=_30DD97C1-D18E-49F7-9BC5-F03D465FB26C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Qin and others: Just to get the ball rolling, I=E2=80=99ve posted today = draft-lear-opsawg-mud-controller-candidates-00. I think this should help the discussion. Eliot > On 1 Jul 2019, at 10:23, Qin Wu wrote: >=20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Eliot Lear [mailto:lear@cisco.com = ] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 = 15:52 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Qin Wu > > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: opsawg@ietf.org ; = mud@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a = controller in MUD >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu > wrote: >=20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org = ] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Eliot Lear > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5= 17:48 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: opsawg@ietf.org ; = mud@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in = MUD >=20 > Hi everyone, >=20 > A few of us are just trying to put out an initial draft that addresses = one gap in MUD (there are several). In a MUD file one can say that one = wants to access a controller in two ways: either "my-controller=E2=80=9D = meaning a controller that services devices of a particular MUD URL or a = =E2=80=9Ccontroller=E2=80=9D class that services devices based on a = particular class name of controller. >=20 > In either case, right now the administrator has to manually know and = populate information, to say - some device 1.2.3.4 is a controller, = either for MUD URL https://example.com/mud or = a class http://example.com/mudclass1 . = That can be laborious. To assist, we are examining ways to have a = controller declare itself as a candidate controller. >=20 > [Qin]: Since MUD in RFC8520 has already specify DNS extension and DHCP = extension, why not configure MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s = declaration? So the RESTFUL interface can be defined between NMS and = controller, if my understanding is correct. > I believe this is network initiated solution, you might have client = initiated solution, but probably more complicated than network initiated = solution. >=20 > Can you say a few more words? I=E2=80=99m not sure I=E2=80=99m quite = following you. > [Qin]: What I am suggesting is NMS preconfigures the MUD manager with = controller=E2=80=99s declaration information, during DHCP process or DNS = process, the controller=E2=80=99s declaration can be returned > To the router or switch between the thing and MUD manager or return to = the thing, the router or the thing can access controller through = controller delclartion. >=20 > If the MUD manager also needs to be advertised to the thing, DHCP = Discovery or DNS process can be leveraged. In this case, NMS needs to = preconfigure DHCP server with MUD manager information. >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 > That at least provides a hint to the administrator that this = particular device is capable of serving in a particular role. >=20 > To make that declaration, the device must- > Form the declaration; > Find the MUD manager; and > Send it. >=20 > Forming the declaration is easy: we can make this a YANG grouping and = then place it in various spots. >=20 > Finding the MUD manager depends on one question: > Was the device built to be a controller or is it a general purpose = device that has an app that is intended to be a controller? >=20 > If the device was built to be a controller, we can simply cram the = declaration into that devices own MUD file as an extension. If the = device is a general purpose computer, things get a bit more interesting. = In this case we have two choices: >=20 > Either create a MUD file that points somewhere internally - this = doesn=E2=80=99t seem very plug and play. > Make the declaration directly to the MUD manager. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m going to focus on the latter for the moment. It is easy = enough to create a RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a = mechanism to discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an = internal part of the network infrastructure. >=20 > Let me call this out plainly: letting the app itself directly call the = MUD manager requires that the MUD manager itself become exposed to the = user infrastructure, which is a change. >=20 > One possibility to address this is to incorporate the new RESTful = endpoint into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, which may already be = exposed. But that requires that ANIMA BRSKI be in play, which it may = not. >=20 > My thinking is that we do this work in two stages. First handle the = easy case, which is the MUD file extension, and then figure out how to = do the app version of this. >=20 > Thoughts? >=20 > Eliot >=20 --Apple-Mail=_30DD97C1-D18E-49F7-9BC5-F03D465FB26C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Qin = and others:

Just to = get the ball rolling, I=E2=80=99ve posted today draft-lear-opsawg-mud-controller-candidates-00.

I = think this should help the discussion.

Eliot

On 1 Jul 2019, at 10:23, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> = wrote:

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Eliot Lear [mailto:lear@cisco.com] 
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9= =97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 15:52
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: opsawg@ietf.org; mud@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [OPSAWG] Declaring = something to be a controller in MUD
 
 


On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> = wrote:
 
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Eliot Lear
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9= =97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5 17:48
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA= =BA: opsawg@ietf.org; mud@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in = MUD
 
Hi everyone,
 
A few of us are just trying to put out an initial draft that = addresses one gap in MUD (there are several).  In a MUD file one = can say that one wants to access a controller in two ways: either = "my-controller=E2=80=9D meaning a controller that = services devices of a particular MUD URL or a =E2=80=9Ccontroller=E2=80=9D class that = services devices based on a particular class name of controller.
 
In either case, right now the administrator = has to manually know and populate information, to say - some device = 1.2.3.4 is a controller, either for MUD URL https://example.com/mud or a class http://example.com/mudclass1.  That can be = laborious.  To assist, we are examining ways to have a controller = declare itself as a candidate controller.
 
[Qin]: Since = MUD in RFC8520 has already specify DNS extension and DHCP extension, why = not configure MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s declaration? So the = RESTFUL interface can be defined between NMS and controller, if my = understanding is correct.
I believe this = is network initiated solution, you might have client initiated solution, = but probably more complicated than network initiated = solution.
 
Can you = say a few more words?  I=E2=80=99m not sure I=E2=80=99m quite = following you.
[Qin]: What I am = suggesting is NMS preconfigures the MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s = declaration information, during DHCP process or DNS process, the = controller=E2=80=99s declaration can be returned
To the router or switch = between the thing and MUD manager or return to the thing, the router or = the thing can access controller through controller delclartion.
 
If the MUD = manager also needs to be advertised to the thing, DHCP Discovery or DNS = process can be leveraged. In this case, NMS needs to preconfigure DHCP = server with MUD manager information.
 
Eliot

 
 That at least provides = a hint to the administrator that this particular device is capable of = serving in a particular role.
 
To make that declaration, the device must-
  • Form the declaration;
  • Find = the MUD manager; and
  • Send = it.
 
Forming the declaration is easy: we can make = this a YANG grouping and then place it in various spots.
 
Finding the MUD manager depends on one = question:
  • Was the device built to be a controller or is = it a general purpose device that has an app that is intended to be a = controller?
 
If the device was built to be a controller, we = can simply cram the declaration into that devices own MUD file as an = extension.  If the device is a general purpose computer, things get = a bit more interesting.  In this case we have two choices:
 
  • Either create a MUD file that points somewhere = internally - this doesn=E2=80=99t = seem very plug and play.
  • Make = the declaration directly to the MUD manager.
 
I=E2=80=99m going to = focus on the latter for the moment.  It is easy enough to create a = RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a mechanism to = discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an internal part = of the network infrastructure.
 
Let me call this out plainly: letting the app = itself directly call the MUD manager requires that the MUD manager = itself become exposed to the user infrastructure, which is a change.
 
One possibility to address this is to = incorporate the new RESTful endpoint into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, = which may already be exposed.  But that requires that ANIMA BRSKI = be in play, which it may not.
 
My thinking is that we do this work in two = stages.  First handle the easy case, which is the MUD file = extension, and then figure out how to do the app version of this.
 
Thoughts?
 
Eliot
 

= --Apple-Mail=_30DD97C1-D18E-49F7-9BC5-F03D465FB26C-- --Apple-Mail=_6AEA70B0-73A8-435F-A99B-2ED61626EACD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXRnftAAKCRBugA9nE248 uKjlAJ96l9QJuzS7i7BdaBn2c0wFZb5+ZACgmPbVBNHw4vVoyPNeCy00iK3p2q0= =pcAS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_6AEA70B0-73A8-435F-A99B-2ED61626EACD-- From nobody Mon Jul 1 04:52:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDD9B12022A; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 04:52:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1i0iaeeSrCoN; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 04:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CF1012008D; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 04:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id j6so28121478ioa.5; Mon, 01 Jul 2019 04:52:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=nAsGyo/ohAFHnjdrqk/X4fhq6HCnDW6F7AbxKf7dsZA=; b=tcb4gKCitOggljb69cdD13t1Rfr75Nfg9mtxe3395JgKWmOuUWml69H9DJBXINNVQ0 RXn7KYzq2HbfwmNBUuF0nry8sUWqzgY0gA58SfMAbe0tZwro46ljEsTD+/iWodWE/Cr9 glsW/RtHmn7XBd1Vqxy8kBmcRW/6R8zg4z1HKfj/nHlGgAF5l12Jl+j7cZxhoD653Hbs lTUkSEM8H4FJY9kilOdqFK8JTwePOllpGLP+7mLSFf7tbMRFjsb10slx1iW3jAJ9XH/E 1OevLVO9H8QsOTJ2naY9jBrQpaxRFwFXNl8bDI9rj5EnomusH/eE26fhCZMNx3p0CH78 YWDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=nAsGyo/ohAFHnjdrqk/X4fhq6HCnDW6F7AbxKf7dsZA=; b=YQnOG/85Kaa0Vt3WSrcKk0CnUTpfkn5yNTEP7JAhFekzYbFQMlbI0pyCu+X4CCtk/x MH0wTDo4h//s8JU787aBTyQ6L9oVZZgiwDk87xDzBb2gGglzKT53e5BfZ9SaxNk4lbaM 6RI9Qmi6wAwFoD1G3iOOGS+8F1cOFeEzvVNZPREfjib48wFSV1tu0PwQZWw7PGRHbAVy cbygM2jAFQAPEJvXEE6NI3g9cNjp4P1xOjdnYItUOMF4O565hjRmuIh94TtDH/Lu6uGw ImagOWt+VSJfD1DlHzf96bD2ti5OD72zsyKiOjzCklQ4cltDnA4ajVaOhYUuFiQRTaah wNgw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWXUoNTj+Ro9Hbl2zjh96xRJtKcbwCk8qTQtERWbifS3rnO2rLs FEMDV+E8+B1XCDWY65p7+daHEQb18t5zDJoNk447ECnBwvo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwKv7PufIB+m0/Y8naPEkpOky2yypQl/k+KGAtV2SiayRLN21u1wZlihP6FgOiaG8JmrOinp1c7BcTKkoGT5Ks= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:5:: with SMTP id z5mr29129225jao.58.1561981943104; Mon, 01 Jul 2019 04:52:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <29188.1561913378@localhost> In-Reply-To: <29188.1561913378@localhost> From: "M. Ranganathan" Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 07:51:50 -0400 Message-ID: To: iot-onboarding@ietf.org, mud@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dd468f058c9d4274" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] Side meeting at the IETF Montreal - call for agenda items X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 11:52:27 -0000 --000000000000dd468f058c9d4274 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The following draft looks interesting: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lear-opsawg-mud-bw-profile-00 Are there any plans for follow-on work? (I'd like to bring it up for discussion during the side meeting ). Regards On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 12:49 PM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Eliot Lear wrote: > > A number of people have contacted me about meeting in Montreal, and > > that they wouldn=E2=80=99t be available after Tuesday. Convenientl= y, Monday > > morning is reserved for side meetings. I propose we take advantage > of > > this from 9:00 - 10:30 (yes, this bleeds into the 1st session). > > It bleeds into teep, and I'm curious about the loops BOF, so I probably > take > off at the appointed time. > > > I=E2=80=99ve combined MUD and IoT Onboarding, just to save time, as= there is > > substantial community overlap. That=E2=80=99s because the spaces a= re clearly > > related, one being authentication of the device the other being > network > > authorization. > > Agreed. > > > This, then, is a call for agenda items. I have a few of my own, bu= t > > would prefer to hear from others first. Also, are you ok with the > > Monday morning time slot and keeping these activities together? > > > Ps: reminder: side meetings are not =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D anyt= hing. Just a > > gathering of people with a common interest. However, the meeting > will > > run under the IPR rules of the IETF, regardless. All are invited. > > So, I'm not sure if you are asking for BRSKI items, or IoT onboarding > items in general. > > 1) Under BRSKI for non-ANIMA ACP uses, there is the question about > open/closed > registrars, and operational considerations of total sales channel > integration > (MASA knows the customers), vs retail integration (no knowledge of > customers). There are probably areas of grey in between that might be > worth enumerating. > > 2) There is a similar question for MUD, which is how does the MUD > controller > arrive at trust criteria for the signatures. This is the > enterprise/customer side of the above story: do you know who you are > buying from? > This relates to the discussion we have had about controllers: I think = if > we could pin down the quality of the signatures, we could say more. > > 3) MUD Operational considerations for devices that can grow "skills" > > Not really a topic exactly: but how do we get towards the point where we > can test > MUD/BRSKI integration. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > -- > Mud mailing list > Mud@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud > --=20 M. Ranganathan --000000000000dd468f058c9d4274 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The following draft looks interesting:

h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lear-opsawg-mud-bw-profile-00

Are there any plans for follow-on work?

(I'd like to bring it up for discussion during the side meeting = ).

Regards

= On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 12:49 PM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

Eliot Lear <lear@cis= co.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > A number of people have contacted me about meeting in Mo= ntreal, and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > that they wouldn=E2=80=99t be available after Tuesday.= =C2=A0 Conveniently, Monday
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > morning is reserved for side meetings.=C2=A0 I propose w= e take advantage of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > this from 9:00 - 10:30 (yes, this bleeds into the 1st se= ssion).

It bleeds into teep, and I'm curious about the loops BOF, so I probably= take
off at the appointed time.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I=E2=80=99ve combined MUD and IoT Onboarding, just to sa= ve time, as there is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > substantial community overlap.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s beca= use the spaces are clearly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > related, one being authentication of the device the othe= r being network
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > authorization.

Agreed.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > This, then, is a call for agenda items.=C2=A0 I have a f= ew of my own, but
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > would prefer to hear from others first.=C2=A0 Also, are = you ok with the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Monday morning time slot and keeping these activities to= gether?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Ps: reminder: side meetings are not =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2= =80=9D anything.=C2=A0 Just a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > gathering of people with a common interest.=C2=A0 Howeve= r, the meeting will
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > run under the IPR rules of the IETF, regardless.=C2=A0 A= ll are invited.

So, I'm not sure if you are asking for BRSKI items, or IoT onboarding i= tems in general.

1) Under BRSKI for non-ANIMA ACP uses, there is the question about open/clo= sed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0registrars, and operational considerations of total sales chan= nel integration
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(MASA knows the customers), vs retail integration (no knowledg= e of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0customers).=C2=A0 There are probably areas of grey in between = that might be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0worth enumerating.

2) There is a similar question for MUD, which is how does the MUD controlle= r
=C2=A0 =C2=A0arrive at trust criteria for the signatures.=C2=A0 This is the=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0enterprise/customer side of the above story: do you know who y= ou are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0buying from?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This relates to the discussion we have had about controllers: = I think if
=C2=A0 =C2=A0we could pin down the quality of the signatures, we could say = more.

3) MUD Operational considerations for devices that can grow "skills&qu= ot;

Not really a topic exactly: but how do we get towards the point where we ca= n test
MUD/BRSKI integration.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
--
Mud mailing list
Mud@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud


--
M. Ranganathan

<= /div>
--000000000000dd468f058c9d4274-- From nobody Mon Jul 1 11:51:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B01B812016E; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:51:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kQ5OW1y_3JgU; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F9C612016C; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id s7so31106803iob.11; Mon, 01 Jul 2019 11:51:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UpKSfeZjex6alpCiDT3fuS1vDZstpiy1I4FwgAKQZs4=; b=mU8tv3Z5nrii6LutaPVspjRCVL106LdDe90EWRBUcQs8xys/j6tyrTzRhp10Vkmyps GVJAtSrAW8SPab8Pz5KYzxwOmRxtJ2EPb8DJAerfiSSxYHlxVt1ECY3m6EeEQ+kflLjS rLd8GGNcpd1DjPlEDzy73zBWeQzpc89++62vpGBPyOb0P1Odn2womIBxJ96Fi/PIAoXf OoHUACZbP6FdGAaRiXD6hsIKCP832YF+PwoWqHZPea3J6VNLR1lXXJJ+NDT2dKZk7mNk zeqhbDEahi79zlq/stvhaWv1AjCXwmOFmEls5zH4+B1SJAC0WjUy/del5ZSCBt9CbOac rE2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UpKSfeZjex6alpCiDT3fuS1vDZstpiy1I4FwgAKQZs4=; b=jBDXqPxBLkedGOaCfPRFuSHm4XtOd2GyEJhmxGRShywntqUJLaF7UPe6sVd5gKiX7X 0kZSgcLYBjxcK+yFTAuGOlYJOm71pcjGwH4cvaN4Ji/GNjXlN5l2KBR/ky0A7C77hZSI pnlnVp1ES2iChrkemwn+/O+gP5njBIXWCFLWGOYLgMTQ4u8Upe5KsxE9nC1ZrUAPeBf+ Y/syr7C/nKgP+Igp/WUjYahwGHKiEfOMiqNXemyjCEXRBH9Nf4qVnorP3wZ6bHZ9ajMx G1ZSGDivqLbRIhQqFyNJTqqKq3gY61zUDB5EhpEzse9S3JhX4AEqjTyHIUEib6OKmaho p48A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUqm8udKN+x/u1210wnX1NmUm0L4NqbNeadr3NwM66AbKAfCh4D nG6SqTWSDBdowH7EW693m/ztM2G3/RbiHtFhpp0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzeR+4f7bavjlpAUKDG8THbyVj+wWyLb89WS0butQiF/ct/GiLfXR0dqDS0MnjjfYH4Fwc+D3tPmkCpmuIWMtw= X-Received: by 2002:a02:3308:: with SMTP id c8mr30073263jae.103.1562007103098; Mon, 01 Jul 2019 11:51:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <230EB786-36AB-4E79-A6DD-20278E895763@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <230EB786-36AB-4E79-A6DD-20278E895763@cisco.com> From: "M. Ranganathan" Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:51:06 -0400 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: Qin Wu , "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000845370058ca31e5c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 18:51:47 -0000 --000000000000845370058ca31e5c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 6:26 AM Eliot Lear wrote: > Qin and others: > > Just to get the ball rolling, I=E2=80=99ve posted today > draft-lear-opsawg-mud-controller-candidates-00. > > I think this should help the discussion. > > Eliot > Hello Eliot, In a similar vein to the question Qin is asking, I have a question (we could discuss during the upcoming IETF side meeting if you don't have time to respond now). What is the essential difference between a device declaring itself to be a "controller" for another class and the situation where the device (being controlled) just uses the "model" abstraction in an ACE? If a device with mud URL https://toothbrush.nist.local/super1 is a controller for device coffemaker.nist.local, then simply declare an ACE in the coffeemaker MUD file, with a Model abstraction naming toothbursh.nist.local : { "name": "man0-todev", "matches": { "ietf-mud:mud": { "model": "https://toothbrush.nist.local/super1" }, "ipv4": { "protocol": 17 }, "udp": { "source-port": { "operator": "eq", "port": 8008 } } } (similarly in the "frdev") What is the difference (in behavior) between this and the new mechanism proposed in the draft? Thanks, Ranga > > On 1 Jul 2019, at 10:23, Qin Wu wrote: > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* Eliot Lear [mailto:lear@cisco.com ] > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5= 15:52 > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* Qin Wu > *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81:* opsawg@ietf.org; mud@ietf.org > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* Re: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller= in MUD > > > > > On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu wrote: > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org ] > *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Eliot Lear > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2019=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8824=E6=97= =A5 17:48 > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* opsawg@ietf.org; mud@ietf.org > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in = MUD > > Hi everyone, > > A few of us are just trying to put out an initial draft that addresses on= e > gap in MUD (there are several). In a MUD file one can say that one wants > to access a controller in two ways: either "my-controller=E2=80=9D meanin= g a > controller that services devices of a particular MUD URL or a =E2=80=9Cco= ntroller=E2=80=9D > class that services devices based on a particular class name of > controller. > > In either case, right now the administrator has to manually know and > populate information, to say - some device 1.2.3.4 is a controller, eithe= r > for MUD URL https://example.com/mud or a class > http://example.com/mudclass1. That can be laborious. To assist, we are > examining ways to have a controller declare itself as a candidate > controller. > > [Qin]: Since MUD in RFC8520 has already specify DNS extension and DHCP > extension, why not configure MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s declar= ation? So > the RESTFUL interface can be defined between NMS and controller, if my > understanding is correct. > I believe this is network initiated solution, you might have client > initiated solution, but probably more complicated than network initiated > solution. > > > Can you say a few more words? I=E2=80=99m not sure I=E2=80=99m quite fol= lowing you. > [Qin]: What I am suggesting is NMS preconfigures the MUD manager with > controller=E2=80=99s declaration information, during DHCP process or DNS = process, > the controller=E2=80=99s declaration can be returned > To the router or switch between the thing and MUD manager or return to th= e > thing, the router or the thing can access controller through controller > delclartion. > > If the MUD manager also needs to be advertised to the thing, DHCP > Discovery or DNS process can be leveraged. In this case, NMS needs to > preconfigure DHCP server with MUD manager information. > > Eliot > > > That at least provides a hint to the administrator that this particular > device is capable of serving in a particular role. > > To make that declaration, the device must- > > - Form the declaration; > - Find the MUD manager; and > - Send it. > > > Forming the declaration is easy: we can make this a YANG grouping and the= n > place it in various spots. > > Finding the MUD manager depends on one question: > > - Was the device built to be a controller or is it a general purpose > device that has an app that is intended to be a controller? > > > If the device was built to be a controller, we can simply cram the > declaration into that devices own MUD file as an extension. If the devic= e > is a general purpose computer, things get a bit more interesting. In thi= s > case we have two choices: > > > - Either create a MUD file that points somewhere internally - this > doesn=E2=80=99t seem very plug and play. > - Make the declaration directly to the MUD manager. > > > I=E2=80=99m going to focus on the latter for the moment. It is easy enou= gh to > create a RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a mechanism = to > discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an internal part = of > the network infrastructure. > > Let me call this out plainly: letting the app itself directly call the MU= D > manager requires that the MUD manager itself become exposed to the user > infrastructure, which is a change. > > One possibility to address this is to incorporate the new RESTful endpoin= t > into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, which may already be exposed. But th= at > requires that ANIMA BRSKI be in play, which it may not. > > My thinking is that we do this work in two stages. First handle the easy > case, which is the MUD file extension, and then figure out how to do the > app version of this. > > Thoughts? > > Eliot > > > > > -- > Mud mailing list > Mud@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud > --=20 M. Ranganathan --000000000000845370058ca31e5c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 6:26 AM= Eliot Lear <lear@ci= sco.com> wrote:
Qin and others:

Just to get the ball rolling= , I=E2=80=99ve posted today=C2=A0draft-lear-opsawg-mud-controller-candidates-00.

I think this should help the discussion.

Eliot<= br>

Hello Eliot,

In a similar vein to the=20 question Qin is asking, I have a question (we could discuss during the=20 upcoming IETF side meeting if you don't have time to respond now).
=

What is the essential difference between a device declaring itself to be a=20 "controller" for another class and the situation where the device= (being controlled) just uses the "model" abstraction in an ACE?

If a device with mud URL=C2=A0=20 https://toothbrush.nist.lo= cal/super1 is a controller for device=20 coffemaker.nist.local, then simply declare an ACE in the coffeemaker MUD fi= le, with a Model=20 abstraction naming toothbursh.nist.local :

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 "name": "man0-todev",
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "matches": {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "ietf-mud:mud": {
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "model": "https://toothbrush.nist.local/super1<= /a>"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 },
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "ipv4": {=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "pr= otocol": 17
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= },
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "udp&qu= ot;: {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &q= uot;source-port": {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "operator": "eq",
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "port&q= uot;: 8008
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }






=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:= =C2=A0Eliot Lear [mailto:lear@cisco.com]=C2=A0<= br>=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:= =C2=A02019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5=C2=A015:52
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:=C2=A0Qin Wu= <bill.wu@huawei.com>
= =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81:=C2=A0opsawg@ietf.org;=C2=A0mud@ietf.org
=E4= =B8=BB=E9=A2=98:=C2=A0Re: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MU= D
= =C2=A0
=C2=A0


On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> wrote:<= /div>
=C2=A0
=
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:= =C2=A0OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf= .org]=C2=A0=E4=BB=A3= =E8=A1=A8=C2=A0Eliot Lear
=E5=8F= =91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:=C2=A02019=E5=B9=B46
=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5=C2=A017:48
=E6=94= =B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:=C2=A0opsawg@ietf.org;=C2= =A0mud@ietf.org=
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:=C2=A0[= OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD
=C2=A0
Hi everyone,
=C2=A0
A few of us are just trying to put out an init= ial draft that addresses one gap in MUD (there are several).=C2=A0 In a MUD= file one can say that one wants to access a controller in two ways: either= "my-controller=E2=80=9D=C2=A0<= /span>meaning a controller that services devices of a particular MUD URL or= a=C2=A0=E2=80=9Ccontroller=E2=80=9D=C2=A0class that servi= ces devices based on a particular class name of controller.
=C2=A0
= In either case, right now the administrator has to manually know and popula= te information, to say - some device 1.2.3.4 is a controller, either for MU= D URL=C2=A0https://example.com/mud=C2=A0or a class=C2= =A0htt= p://example.com/mudclass1.=C2=A0 That can be laborious.=C2=A0 To= assist, we are examining ways to have a controller declare itself as a can= didate controller.
=C2=A0
[Qin]: Since MUD in RFC8520= has already specify DNS extension and DHCP extension, why not configure MU= D manager with controller=E2=80=99s declaration? So the RESTFUL interface c= an be defined between NMS and controller, if my understanding is correct.
= I believe this is network initiated solution, you = might have client initiated solution, but probably more complicated than ne= twork initiated solution.<= /div>
= =C2=A0
Can you = say a few more words?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m not sure I=E2=80=99m quite followin= g you.
[Qin]: What I am suggesting is NMS preconfig= ures the MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s declaration information, dur= ing DHCP process or DNS process, the controller=E2=80=99s declaration can b= e returned
To = the router or switch between the thing and MUD manager or return to the thi= ng, the router or the thing can access controller through controller delcla= rtion.
= =C2=A0
If the MUD man= ager also needs to be advertised to the thing, DHCP Discovery or DNS proces= s can be leveraged. In this case, NMS needs to preconfigure DHCP server wit= h MUD manager information.
=C2=A0
Eliot

=C2=A0
=C2=A0That at least provides a hin= t to the administrator that this particular device is capable of serving in= a particular role.
=C2=A0
To make that declaration, the device = must-
  • Form the declaration;
  • Find the MUD manager; and<= /span>
  • Send it.
=C2=A0=
Forming the declaration is easy: we can make this a YANG grouping a= nd then place it in various spots.
=C2=A0
<= /div>
Finding the MUD manager= depends on one question:
  • Was the device built to be a controller or = is it a general purpose device that has an app that is intended to be a con= troller?
=C2=A0
If the device was built to be a controller, we can si= mply cram the declaration into that devices own MUD file as an extension.= =C2=A0 If the device is a general purpose computer, things get a bit more i= nteresting.=C2=A0 In this case we have two choices:
=C2=A0
  • Either c= reate a MUD file that points somewhere internally - this doesn=E2=80= =99t seem very plug and play.
  • Make the declaration dir= ectly to the MUD manager.
=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99m going to focus on the latter for the moment.=C2=A0 It is easy enough = to create a RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a mechanism= to discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an internal par= t of the network infrastructure.
=C2=A0
Let me call this out plain= ly: letting the app itself directly call the MUD manager requires that the = MUD manager itself become exposed to the user infrastructure, which is a ch= ange.
=C2=A0
One possibility to address this is to incorporate the= new RESTful endpoint into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, which may already= be exposed.=C2=A0 But that requires that ANIMA BRSKI be in play, which it = may not.
=C2=A0
My thinking is that we do this work in two stages= .=C2=A0 First handle the easy case, which is the MUD file extension, and th= en figure out how to do the app version of this.
=
=C2=A0
Thoughts?
=C2=A0
Eliot
=C2=A0
<= /div>

--
Mud mailing list
Mud@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud


--
M. = Ranganathan

<= /div>
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18:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id F14CF346A466C4943808; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 02:23:21 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 02:23:21 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.66]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 09:22:55 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Eliot Lear CC: "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD Thread-Index: AdUwcx6+mF+fALYzSn+/zG0NMumJFw== Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 01:22:54 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.31.203] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAA49BD941nkgeml513mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 01:23:27 -0000 --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAA49BD941nkgeml513mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksIEVsaW90Og0KU29ycnkgZm9yIGxhdGUsIHNlZSBteSByZXBseSBpbmxpbmUgYmVsb3cuDQoN CuWPkeS7tuS6ujogRWxpb3QgTGVhciBbbWFpbHRvOmxlYXJAY2lzY28uY29tXQ0K5Y+R6YCB5pe2 6Ze0OiAyMDE55bm0N+aciDHml6UgMTY6NDkNCuaUtuS7tuS6ujogUWluIFd1IDxiaWxsLnd1QGh1 YXdlaS5jb20+DQrmioTpgIE6IG9wc2F3Z0BpZXRmLm9yZzsgbXVkQGlldGYub3JnDQrkuLvpopg6 IFJlOiBbT1BTQVdHXSBEZWNsYXJpbmcgc29tZXRoaW5nIHRvIGJlIGEgY29udHJvbGxlciBpbiBN 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[10.61.244.239] ([10.61.244.239]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x6267Ooe005533 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 2 Jul 2019 06:07:25 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E8DA1115-8274-43D2-AE9B-936DBED5F65D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 08:07:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Qin Wu , "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" To: "M. Ranganathan" References: <230EB786-36AB-4E79-A6DD-20278E895763@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.244.239, [10.61.244.239] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 06:07:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E8DA1115-8274-43D2-AE9B-936DBED5F65D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9AF038A6-CDD0-482A-A20F-519512AB4E8D" --Apple-Mail=_9AF038A6-CDD0-482A-A20F-519512AB4E8D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Ranga, > On 1 Jul 2019, at 20:51, M. Ranganathan wrote: >=20 > What is the essential difference between a device declaring itself to = be a "controller" for another class and the situation where the device = (being controlled) just uses the "model" abstraction in an ACE? You could indeed do this with =E2=80=9Cmodel=E2=80=9D, --Apple-Mail=_9AF038A6-CDD0-482A-A20F-519512AB4E8D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Ranga,

On 1 Jul 2019, at 20:51, M. Ranganathan = <mranga@gmail.com> wrote:

What is the essential difference = between a device declaring itself to be a "controller" for another class = and the situation where the device (being controlled) just uses the = "model" abstraction in an ACE? 


You= could indeed do this with =E2=80=9Cmodel=E2=80=9D, 
= --Apple-Mail=_9AF038A6-CDD0-482A-A20F-519512AB4E8D-- --Apple-Mail=_E8DA1115-8274-43D2-AE9B-936DBED5F65D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXRr0mwAKCRBugA9nE248 uEzIAJ941sJQ4y8+tb4frImgddSPdWOn0ACg23ZYrz+ur/oWUUwYH1YxPpxBOEQ= =NcJr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_E8DA1115-8274-43D2-AE9B-936DBED5F65D-- From nobody Mon Jul 1 23:11:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945E41200A4; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 23:11:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zF-yme4YMO3m; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 23:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE0111200B3; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 23:10:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4013; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1562047858; x=1563257458; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=sl2T3sxJ82MVOAbNx7E72mp/3OIxFRJ67L4ugGjW/ZU=; b=IFk6zJiKB2Y+B4zI/366CqoU4h7GT5Qw4MSc5Gekapv/tbYADNqLPZBr odfXbYecTDWSA19LRFuW9buISNJujoqUua7BuZokwAOdO0kiKpe843sJh KCT5G0J81cMEpXmt9lJvC9/i135Zh88OclfgGPtxhuiHmG8DZ8OTcsJ1s k=; X-Files: signature.asc : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AUAABA9Bpd/xbLJq1mGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAQGBVgEBAQEBAQsBAYETgj0hEiiEHIh7jAiHLoIdiSWHfQI?= =?us-ascii?q?HAQEBCQMBAS8BAYRAAoMnNwYOAQMBAQQBAQIBBW2KQ0IBEAGEdgEBAQECASN?= =?us-ascii?q?WBQsLBBQqAgIhNgYTgyIBgWoDDg+lGYEyhUeCRw2CFhCBNAGBUIolgX+BOB+?= =?us-ascii?q?CHi4+ghqFNDKCJgSMJIg0lRhACYIYgh+BDIxeg3IbjSuKQJZdinKDCQIEBgU?= =?us-ascii?q?CFYFmIoFYMxoIGxVlAYJBPpBJPQMwhTiJLgEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.63,442,1557187200"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="13775770" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 02 Jul 2019 06:10:55 +0000 Received: from [10.61.244.239] ([10.61.244.239]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x626AsuO019248 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 2 Jul 2019 06:10:55 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F73EB660-D21E-4395-B602-4A50B5DF6A0F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 08:10:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Qin Wu , "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" To: "M. Ranganathan" References: <230EB786-36AB-4E79-A6DD-20278E895763@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.244.239, [10.61.244.239] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 06:11:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F73EB660-D21E-4395-B602-4A50B5DF6A0F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5FC2D4BD-8A03-40E3-954E-982BC5CFF986" --Apple-Mail=_5FC2D4BD-8A03-40E3-954E-982BC5CFF986 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Ranga, Sorry for the pre-mature send. > On 1 Jul 2019, at 20:51, M. Ranganathan wrote: >=20 > What is the essential difference between a device declaring itself to = be a "controller" for another class and the situation where the device = (being controlled) just uses the "model" abstraction in an ACE? >=20 You could indeed do this with =E2=80=9Cmodel=E2=80=9D. The reason I = hadn=E2=80=99t thought of that was because in my mind, same-manufacturer = and model were for NxN communications, and that it might be a hint to = the NMS to use appropriate scale mechanisms. But that=E2=80=99s not = actually in the text. I think, by the way, that there=E2=80=99s another reason to think about = doing this from the controller side: if the standards are open like we = like them to be, a device may not know who should be the controller for = a particular device or class. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_5FC2D4BD-8A03-40E3-954E-982BC5CFF986 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Ranga,

Sorry for the = pre-mature send.

On 1 Jul 2019, at 20:51, M. = Ranganathan <mranga@gmail.com> wrote:

What = is the essential difference between a device declaring itself to be a = "controller" for another class and the situation where the device (being = controlled) just uses the "model" abstraction in an ACE? 


You could indeed do this with = =E2=80=9Cmodel=E2=80=9D.  The reason I hadn=E2=80=99t thought of = that was because in my mind, same-manufacturer and model were for NxN = communications, and that it might be a hint to the NMS to use = appropriate scale mechanisms.  But that=E2=80=99s not actually in = the text.

I = think, by the way, that there=E2=80=99s another reason to think about = doing this from the controller side: if the standards are open like we = like them to be, a device may not know who should be the controller for = a particular device or class.

Eliot
= --Apple-Mail=_5FC2D4BD-8A03-40E3-954E-982BC5CFF986-- --Apple-Mail=_F73EB660-D21E-4395-B602-4A50B5DF6A0F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXRr1bQAKCRBugA9nE248 uHXOAJ9KR7LG6BnC15Z9RP3l8px4f5tj4gCeO9evervAJodAwZ/UH/ICyW4ZlsY= =9lGI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F73EB660-D21E-4395-B602-4A50B5DF6A0F-- From nobody Tue Jul 2 10:22:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34B8F120651; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 10:22:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z0UepgOR0pge; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 10:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFDB2120664; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 10:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id k20so12493934ios.10; Tue, 02 Jul 2019 10:22:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Eh4A6O4fI5KBqveVJ+iBGVjgfPgJJJKshdYVhiDIhVY=; b=ogVo4D7QzQDIxD+ZnK9IVBBthYOnsv/NnuqKq538TZCUpfx4k5roAiK9klpuV+fML/ jskf/OlhKB+LG2ZzqZWIwOvR3x1s/3+CNhcJqdOvBXiKK0aferw1O4qdqdv9G8Je5IlA WwxDEuQBL4QnsRqSfMPngEBIEbZZfoDkdkr7lo1Q6cOBV0c432P5Tu3l6RefjbKKA2IK JoNOviq3vvAqF4LK2ilCj96zbu07xXBxrWuagjlrJY6jwPAUlIwZrULFdCVwk44nAwWw UrKfLgTjaGpZT1WhfYPvDYl9eGeKqNaoBL1Cx21ipvtoYpJEbZ755HXMJCj7M4RUhbQd WqFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Eh4A6O4fI5KBqveVJ+iBGVjgfPgJJJKshdYVhiDIhVY=; b=poak//GXhQE8S7gmI4aMXC77xxoAVPccTL0I58Oe7GKxcBMmB1bE7cvaXf2Lt9v6C+ xMdPQtzQ2GM5LnYM8Ag9OqhRHjv6a/rjfWe75IELkLnPR0KWvXqYB/Q8ccqAWNDfCg5Z SHm5exdIjNIzL3vl/YT0azttyda3yx50EvbsNJdUq9viBSPByuludAZ8fv/6NT5qJz5U P0/S38cl2gy1/UglcEq5LbSDJSbbsx8ZigKAec46h5wA+01/Xkfd7JDUDmDs611rRhhz WKhpwZGjSv+eesOuNCRn5cxV8A0lMxWdTmWNcR0NEtMw8DWYAhJuxQlXmp8csAKDjNVY aqnw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWKpf/QEKVhDhILPCyabDkAZr6fr4nKMeCptzaqERMX3pHdZy4K q2jhElUpDc5TwwUfQ41K0a5Vc9rYUZYd/IugbZE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz5EiLCk5b66fyAIt7miS4/UNs7g2B1EcZTnuZgDkIiC2wvuqg/TpKuJ+xrtqP+/qRVgUAc18NbxUbYklkNmB4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:2252:: with SMTP id o18mr31961684ioo.63.1562088152789; Tue, 02 Jul 2019 10:22:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <230EB786-36AB-4E79-A6DD-20278E895763@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: "M. Ranganathan" Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:21:56 -0400 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: Qin Wu , "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007479be058cb5fdb7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 17:22:36 -0000 --0000000000007479be058cb5fdb7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Eliot, On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 2:10 AM Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Ranga, > > Sorry for the pre-mature send. > > On 1 Jul 2019, at 20:51, M. Ranganathan wrote: > > What is the essential difference between a device declaring itself to be = a > "controller" for another class and the situation where the device (being > controlled) just uses the "model" abstraction in an ACE? > > > You could indeed do this with =E2=80=9Cmodel=E2=80=9D. The reason I hadn= =E2=80=99t thought of > that was because in my mind, same-manufacturer and model were for NxN > communications, and that it might be a hint to the NMS to use appropriate > scale mechanisms. But that=E2=80=99s not actually in the text. > > I think, by the way, that there=E2=80=99s another reason to think about d= oing this > from the controller side: if the standards are open like we like them to > be, a device may not know who should be the controller for a particular > device or class. > > Yes I agree with your reasoning - especially the second part. I think some wording providing justification for this in the draft would be good (maybe even as an addendum to the MUD specification). Looking forward to further discussion on how applications can become controllers. Regards, Ranga > Eliot > --=20 M. Ranganathan --0000000000007479be058cb5fdb7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Eliot,
On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 2:10 AM Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Ranga,
Sorry for the pre-mature send.

On 1 Jul 2019, at 20:51, M. Ranganathan <mranga@gmail.com> wrote:
What is the essential difference between a device declar= ing itself to be a "controller" for another class and the situati= on where the device (being controlled) just uses the "model" abst= raction in an ACE?=C2=A0


You could in= deed do this with =E2=80=9Cmodel=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 The reason I hadn=E2=80=99= t thought of that was because in my mind, same-manufacturer and model were = for NxN communications, and that it might be a hint to the NMS to use appro= priate scale mechanisms.=C2=A0 But that=E2=80=99s not actually in the text.=

I think, by the way, that there=E2=80=99s another= reason to think about doing this from the controller side: if the standard= s are open like we like them to be, a device may not know who should be the= controller for a particular device or class.


Yes I agree with your reasoning - especially = the second part. I think some wording providing justification for this in t= he draft would be good=C2=A0 (maybe even as an addendum to the MUD specific= ation).

Looking forward to further discussion= on how applications can become controllers.

R= egards, Ranga
Eliot


--
=
M. Ranganathan

--0000000000007479be058cb5fdb7-- From nobody Wed Jul 3 07:48:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7BA512033D for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 07:48:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.441 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.441 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_12=2.059, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nuQzAyct5r4r for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 07:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5DB9120368 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 07:48:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=67692; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1562165319; x=1563374919; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=X1ZeijsxfUh+PvDGJvmXZ1bBHXuYPoVi5ZMyrrQr5X8=; b=l1CluRRQsj1HPBNbi7SE4p9dNcOsnPjVFhgbhgGbrS50dGTypzaXA7A7 OmLDKPVXibuCyayUx4h2vZmAC8LCI+Vqo1epl5GskUCqMNku7TVsolS7a pPzsTZ0sIO4wVJle4mjE8TjUsVpF/1N4zk147JnpRdDRJTMW28Dh5DpYn I=; X-Files: PastedGraphic-1.png, signature.asc : 47518, 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AUAAAevxxd/xbLJq1lGgEBAQEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEHAgEBAQGBVAQBAQEBCwEBgRYDgjczKI0XmhGEUIJNgzWBewIHAQEBCQE?= =?us-ascii?q?CAQEvAQGEQIJHNQgOAQMBAQQBAQIBBW2KQ0IBDAGEcRUTYRwBAQEZAQEBKBU?= =?us-ascii?q?BDkkBBoMcAYIKpjSKMxCBNAGBUIolgX+BOB+CHwGFe4JvgiYElF2MWYRGhD8?= =?us-ascii?q?JghgDghyBDIIgjjQbjSyKRaFagwkCBAYFAhWBUgMzgVgzGggbFWUBgkE+kEk?= =?us-ascii?q?9AzCIKIV2AQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.63,446,1557187200"; d="asc'?png'150?scan'150,208,217,150";a="13900345" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 03 Jul 2019 14:48:36 +0000 Received: from [10.61.244.239] ([10.61.244.239]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x63EmZ76017078 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 3 Jul 2019 14:48:36 GMT From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5078B863-FC5B-4C30-AE75-BD7273CA63BE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 16:48:35 +0200 Cc: collaborators-mitigating-iot-ddos-nccoe@list.nist.gov To: mud@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.244.239, [10.61.244.239] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Mud] Hackathon survey results X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 14:48:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5078B863-FC5B-4C30-AE75-BD7273CA63BE Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E35BC5C0-E6D6-45C7-BB03-0CA46413DF5E" --Apple-Mail=_E35BC5C0-E6D6-45C7-BB03-0CA46413DF5E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi everyone, Here are the poll results for the Hackathon. I think we need to do some = work on reporting and interoperability testing. I will also be prepared = to work on controller/mycontroller registration protocol (left undefined = in the spec). The BYIOT requires that people really BYIOT. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_E35BC5C0-E6D6-45C7-BB03-0CA46413DF5E Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7F21D98A-EF23-45E9-81B3-A2FB90EF8444" --Apple-Mail=_7F21D98A-EF23-45E9-81B3-A2FB90EF8444 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hi everyone,

Here are the poll results for the Hackathon.  I think we need to do some work on reporting and interoperability testing.  I will also be prepared to work on controller/mycontroller registration protocol (left undefined in the spec).  The BYIOT requires that people really BYIOT.

Eliot


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Ranganathan" Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 10:23:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: mud@ietf.org, collaborators-mitigating-iot-ddos-nccoe@list.nist.gov Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="00000000000034ffbe058d1813a4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] Hackathon survey results X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2019 14:24:00 -0000 --00000000000034ffbe058d1813a4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000034ffbc058d1813a3" --00000000000034ffbc058d1813a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello Eliot, Thanks for the survey. Please let us know by Wednesday next week if anybody ( i.e. "manufacturers" especially ) have signed up to bring IOT devices for interop testing so we, the MUD implementers can know whether or not to bring a lot of gear. I prefer to travel light if nobody signs up. If anybody does sign up, we should spin up MUD profiles for these devices. Best regards, Ranga On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 10:48 AM Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Here are the poll results for the Hackathon. I think we need to do some > work on reporting and interoperability testing. I will also be prepared to > work on controller/mycontroller registration protocol (left undefined in > the spec). The BYIOT requires that people really BYIOT. > > Eliot > > > -- > Mud mailing list > Mud@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud > -- M. Ranganathan --00000000000034ffbc058d1813a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Eliot,

Thanks for the = survey. Please let us know by Wednesday next week if anybody ( i.e. "m= anufacturers" especially ) have signed up to bring IOT devices for int= erop testing so we, the MUD implementers can know whether or not to bring a= lot of gear. I prefer to travel light if nobody signs up. If anybody does = sign up, we should spin up MUD profiles for these devices.
Best regards,

Ranga



<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 10:48 AM Eliot = Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Here are= the poll results for the Hackathon.=C2=A0 I think we need to do some work = on reporting and interoperability testing.=C2=A0 I will also be prepared to= work on controller/mycontroller registration protocol (left undefined in t= he spec).=C2=A0 The BYIOT requires that people really BYIOT.

=
Eliot


--
Mud mailing list
Mud@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud


--
M. Ranganathan

<= /div>
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PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VL4G4_8Pw_Lv; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 07:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FA031201E6; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 07:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id h6so27232930iom.7; Mon, 08 Jul 2019 07:03:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; 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APjAAAVOT7z80/5IhzhGmaDyV5UQsoAZxXPzg9lP1eVL/jROVOUpIUo4 huxM/7dHB9QP089JmsdLKqkZiEvfO35EH2/HNWtjk+Is X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwiKuSVR0zHy7k2vxhshOfy9vs0ODbu8wrcnOoSWrMesWdeIwo7q6wfIXk3eSn3AA/L3vlqw1sFIbhXjpysWqw= X-Received: by 2002:a02:5a02:: with SMTP id v2mr21106631jaa.124.1562594594412; Mon, 08 Jul 2019 07:03:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156259372138.1051.8615205410511124401.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156259372138.1051.8615205410511124401.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: tirumal reddy Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 19:33:03 +0530 Message-ID: To: opsawg@ietf.org, mud@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ba6116058d2be7a7" Archived-At: Subject: [Mud] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 14:03:30 -0000 --000000000000ba6116058d2be7a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This draft https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00 discusses Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) extension to model (D)TLS profile on IoT devices. This allows a firewall to notice abnormal DTLS or TLS usage, which has been a strong indicator of other software running on the endpoint, typically malware. Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome. Cheers, -Tiru ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 19:18 Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt To: Tirumaleswar Reddy , Dan Wing A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls Revision: 00 Title: MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT devices Document date: 2019-07-08 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 16 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls Abstract: This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to model DTLS and TLS usage. This allows a network element to notice abnormal DTLS or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other software running on the endpoint, typically malware. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --000000000000ba6116058d2be7a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This draft https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00 discusses Manufacturer Usage Descriptio= n (MUD) extension to model (D)TLS profile on IoT devices. This allows a fir= ewall to notice abnormal DTLS or TLS usage, which has been a strong indicat= or of other software running on the endpoint, typically malware.=C2=A0

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-= family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Comments, suggestions, and questions are mor= e than welcome.

Cheers,
-Tiru

=

--= -------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 19:18
Subject: New Version Notification f= or draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>, Dan Wing <danwing@gmail.com>


=
A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT device= s
Document date:=C2=A0 2019-07-08
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-t= ls-00.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls


Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to mode= l DTLS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and TLS usage.=C2=A0 This allows a network element to notice a= bnormal DTLS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other software=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0running on the endpoint, typically malware.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--000000000000ba6116058d2be7a7-- From nobody Mon Jul 8 07:33:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA00412024E; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 07:33:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ej68am4nZ2j6; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 07:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68843120222; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 07:32:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8977; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1562596378; x=1563805978; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=r+deaq67uas/uRJ7/FunlxLeHOW2nwzeus4Iya7Hveo=; b=b3lUVhkI0rzGO7tZiv38KGHVE5zb7EyNkdJcf0OpxuRWtFuWMNtt6eMY mhIpeZi3VTbAt57UtFeFSvHnBN4VYIFRpDxLLJt16RuUjETe/wFYMFMei vLh3hYBCw3Jrji3xtFpRCW1GhENJ2DHzJy5pytwoPyHOO2t7c5cd0ZN5P o=; X-Files: signature.asc : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ADAAAvUyNd/xbLJq1lGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAQGBUwQBAQEBAQsBgRSBbIEEKIw4X4tMJYcugh+FToNXhgK?= =?us-ascii?q?BewIHAQEBCQMBARgBCgwBAYFLgnUCgls0CQ4BAwEBBAEBAgEFbYo3DIVKAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQIBAQFsCQIFCwsRAwECAScHIQYfCQgGE4MiAYFqAw4PD6sYhDYCDkFAgjI?= =?us-ascii?q?NghYQgTQBgVCKJYF/gREnDBOCTD6CGkcBAQIBAYF9gxyCJgSMGhaHXFqVLEA?= =?us-ascii?q?JghmCH4EMgyuIbE+DcxuCLC8+hjSOMZRwgXOLAIMKAgQGBQIVgT0TOIFYMxo?= =?us-ascii?q?IGxUaISoBgkEJNYEKiX6FQT0DMAGOcAEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.63,466,1557187200"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="14021538" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 08 Jul 2019 14:32:56 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp6619.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp6619.cisco.com [10.61.89.218]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x68EWsig004469 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jul 2019 14:32:55 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E3F821F1-5D93-4987-9B60-C3B8157FC3A3"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 16:32:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: opsawg@ietf.org, mud@ietf.org To: tirumal reddy References: <156259372138.1051.8615205410511124401.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.89.218, ams3-vpn-dhcp6619.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 14:33:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E3F821F1-5D93-4987-9B60-C3B8157FC3A3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9FD7192D-3DCA-4818-A754-CBD500918C65" --Apple-Mail=_9FD7192D-3DCA-4818-A754-CBD500918C65 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think this is a pretty cool idea. You should talk about it if you can = make the side meeting, or otherwise if you can get time at opsawg. Eliot > On 8 Jul 2019, at 16:03, tirumal reddy wrote: >=20 > This draft https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00 = discusses = Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) extension to model (D)TLS profile = on IoT devices. This allows a firewall to notice abnormal DTLS or TLS = usage, which has been a strong indicator of other software running on = the endpoint, typically malware. >=20 > Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome. >=20 > Cheers, > -Tiru >=20 > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > > Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 19:18 > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy >, = Dan Wing > >=20 >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to = the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls > Revision: 00 > Title: MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT devices > Document date: 2019-07-08 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 16 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt = > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/ = > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00 = > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls = >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to model = DTLS > and TLS usage. This allows a network element to notice abnormal = DTLS > or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other software > running on the endpoint, typically malware. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org = . >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 > -- > Mud mailing list > Mud@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud --Apple-Mail=_9FD7192D-3DCA-4818-A754-CBD500918C65 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii I = think this is a pretty cool idea.  You should talk about it if you = can make the side meeting, or otherwise if you can get time at = opsawg.

Eliot

On 8 Jul 2019, at 16:03, tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com> = wrote:

This draft https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00 = discusses Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) extension to model (D)TLS = profile on IoT devices. This allows a firewall to notice abnormal DTLS = or TLS usage, which has been a strong indicator of other software = running on the endpoint, typically malware. 

Comments, suggestions, = and questions are more than welcome.

Cheers,
-Tiru

---------- = Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: = Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 19:18
Subject: New Version Notification = for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
To: Tirumaleswar = Reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>, Dan Wing <danwing@gmail.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to = the
IETF repository.

Name:          =  draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls
Revision:       00
Title:          MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT = devices
Document date:  2019-07-08
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          16
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-= 00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/=
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00 Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls=


Abstract:
   This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to = model DTLS
   and TLS usage.  This allows a network element to = notice abnormal DTLS
   or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other = software
   running on the endpoint, typically malware.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

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Mud@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud

= --Apple-Mail=_9FD7192D-3DCA-4818-A754-CBD500918C65-- --Apple-Mail=_E3F821F1-5D93-4987-9B60-C3B8157FC3A3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXSNUFgAKCRBugA9nE248 uK/6AKCVOIlj6H4U1sSGP8FbXMpjS9oP7ACgt8lEb3G165U8ViHQ9qncb6TikBA= =Cn0L -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_E3F821F1-5D93-4987-9B60-C3B8157FC3A3-- From nobody Mon Jul 8 15:12:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA8E7120337 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 15:11:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8sJzWaQeUDHQ for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 15:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A568E120348 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 15:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4406E3818F for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 18:09:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69972EC9 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 18:11:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: mud@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Mud] iot-mud-dns operational considerations X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 22:12:09 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain I threw this together while waiting for the DT to process my other submissions. (It got rather slow...) It's very drafty! https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-opsawg-mud-iot-dns-considerations/ I'll just past the intro, which is all there really is! I'll probably push this at ADD effort, after the BOF is better understood. 1. Introduction [RFC8520] provides a standardized way to describe how a specific purpose device makes use of Internet resources. Access Control Lists (ACLs) can be defined in an RFC8520 Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) file that permit a device to access Internet resources by DNS name. Use of a DNS name rather than IP address in the ACL has many advantages: not only does the layer of indirection permit the mapping of name to IP address to be changed over time, it also generalizes automatically to IPv4 and IPv6 addresses, as well as permitting loading balancing of traffic by many different common ways, including geography. At the MUD policy enforcement point - the firewall - there is a problem. The firewall has only access to the layer-3 headers of the packet. This includes the source and destination IP address, and if not encrypted by IPsec, the destination UDP or TCP port number present in the transport header. The DNS name is not present! In order to implement this, there must be a mapping between the names in the ACLs and layer-3 IP addresses. The first section of this document details a few strategies that are used. The second section of this document details how common manufacturer anti-patterns get in the way this mapping. The third section of this document details how current trends in DNS resolution such as public DNS servers, DNS over TLS (DoT), and DNS over HTTPS (DoH) cause problems for the strategies employed. Poor interactions with content-distribution networks is a frequent pathology that results. The fourth section of this document makes a series of recommendations ("best current practices") for manufacturers on how to use DNS, and IP addresses with specific purpose IoT devices. The Privacy Considerations section concerns itself with issues that DNS-over-TLS and DNS-over-HTTPS are frequently used to deal with. The question is how these concerns apply to IoT devices located within a residence or enterprise is dealt with. The Security Considerations section covers some of the negative outcomes should MUD/firewall managers and IoT manufacturers choose not to cooperate. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl0jv6cACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVigggAwwwlObz2JtK+w1VUeTr29dGbXoD0FqxRa5P0xhECK7yipLYFFawmdcd8 QAVgSO7RZBAxUCwYYeHlO2yLUPrOOHXVn1oy9M4lBpOlK/0ibsQoFNV+l1KB8TLI zWTaAtfrns7JDuo2E04SujjnnnTVjRcl9WlmZoaNDAHUHZHNvtbAibeG8FUJK5yF s+wZQDYxlH+C2Lpagct+0rB0MslskA36Nh1mAAUJ9fPYZyAL/C/TvOiGu1qWp1PQ dzbSQmPanh+YfmEpO/Ha6OY3I0agICJoXp6u5Jni1JjXBKMpbs/Dj2ZD/8N3y1uu hf1af8do43YrxxmKoj+V8F9sXoz1mg== =ZXuH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Jul 8 20:00:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1FBE1200EF; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 20:00:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H6fnJo_VPyT4; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 20:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81F291200DB; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 20:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id B29D23DBCA851177A11A; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 04:00:11 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.70) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 04:00:10 +0100 Received: from NKGEML513-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.66]) by nkgeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:00:05 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: tirumal reddy , "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt Thread-Index: AdU2AVjIwWlWa71ASK6RTWGQe4z2rw== Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 03:00:05 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.31.203] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAA49CD8C1nkgeml513mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org 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mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id i10so41735634iol.13; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 02:53:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NCTSu/qlK2zhK7stVSW1rm+bGOdxyN28jjGM/t2tt38=; b=L4RdDN9O/BSxBu2hpCCYQFOMpkzaCPKICy0XXlQUW0DVRydWqZZgChjugUdqLdJcUZ UV3ZlbumJF0pNpTGMxSaIIMo8V6uBFLgJ/LOzskGKBSZ/rtwjLNYY7iNA7mHGgb1fxy2 qfiFJtwcKfocDM7ViQo8GSj+AHEvjbGjkXIGxyO+x7l1I6I1tzGlQMJ8qtfF+SXtnvN4 ZXjC1BpJRCPPSRwoFQKOrVp+JifJG8RDfbSyT5E4CmYsezPJC4w4msRySvGHscYJxkIu H9CXA9jcDyB4bhVsUdkyjzRPdNvqvRlW3ZUtYdQ9jv651Qy4rrh94FmnRkMTMjNAR3nv nzhw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NCTSu/qlK2zhK7stVSW1rm+bGOdxyN28jjGM/t2tt38=; b=Y1QZp9NnxAzZHfDAWoPd5FlUBy/0hgpAg/cSPyltDdn9dydPJZ7ZUtYeE3aEFvQQX0 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draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 09:53:16 -0000 --0000000000006afc09058d3c87fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks Eliot, glad to present the draft. -Tiru On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 20:02, Eliot Lear wrote: > I think this is a pretty cool idea. You should talk about it if you can > make the side meeting, or otherwise if you can get time at opsawg. > > Eliot > > On 8 Jul 2019, at 16:03, tirumal reddy wrote: > > This draft https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00 > discusses Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) extension to model (D)TLS > profile on IoT devices. This allows a firewall to notice abnormal DTLS or > TLS usage, which has been a strong indicator of other software running on > the endpoint, typically malware. > > Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome. > > Cheers, > -Tiru > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 19:18 > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy , Dan Wing > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls > Revision: 00 > Title: MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT devices > Document date: 2019-07-08 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 16 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00 > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls > > > Abstract: > This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to model DTLS > and TLS usage. This allows a network element to notice abnormal DTLS > or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other software > running on the endpoint, typically malware. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > -- > Mud mailing list > Mud@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud > > > --0000000000006afc09058d3c87fc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Eliot, glad to present the draft.
-Tiru

On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 20:02, Eliot Lear <<= a href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">lear@cisco.com> w= rote:
I thi= nk this is a pretty cool idea.=C2=A0 You should talk about it if you can ma= ke the side meeting, or otherwise if you can get time at opsawg.

Eliot

On 8 Jul 2019, at= 16:03, tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com> wrote:

This draft https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-re= ddy-opswg-mud-tls-00 discusses Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) ext= ension to model (D)TLS profile on IoT devices. This allows a firewall to no= tice abnormal DTLS or TLS usage, which has been a strong indicator of other= software running on the endpoint, typically malware.=C2=A0
=
Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome.

Chee= rs,
-Tiru

---------- Forwarded message ---------
F= rom: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul = 2019 at 19:18
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mu= d-tls-00.txt
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>, Dan Wing <danwing@gmail.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT device= s
Document date:=C2=A0 2019-07-08
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-t= ls-00.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls


Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to mode= l DTLS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and TLS usage.=C2=A0 This allows a network element to notice a= bnormal DTLS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other software=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0running on the endpoint, typically malware.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--
Mud mailing list
Mud@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud
<= /blockquote>

--0000000000006afc09058d3c87fc-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 03:09:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5ADC1203FC; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 03:09:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k4O7MJFGp6mE; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 03:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8880A120390; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 03:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id z3so26945225iog.0; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 03:09:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PKD773QIkIdrevgSbOBwAzLvGCy598u0iw5tFMZdZes=; b=E3tMSQ0hM4CAVsx4tRMzVrGJnwNuu5Vod+oR8ecFVihaJVjvHz583Cei5XfTupMqMb Qj4VinTaaqB5fIjwA6C4Fkdz9sAMV74wUSk5srFvKbmMyW7GlwR3+n53fPQVkBqc4jCH MfAQ0QMxX4MugMo/pU+CSH6XWhXfrkX7vsmOp0zkcwg+tqNS2CKzvtzeIRO9X+KRZEeu q+xvIArw9Kc4ZyPu6lmWUDx0+Czcy/QHsqH8z29JeVl2LoujtUXU7Ok6rXETY0ThLWfZ v8SqB1Spq+8JqE0bI/zu/xJkuBTw9BPQZAswcY3t0jucU5fEYBGm/ba2hCN6n8I7LLa7 ByEg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PKD773QIkIdrevgSbOBwAzLvGCy598u0iw5tFMZdZes=; b=FYEOHtUz1DHk3MYizCE685DORt5i4KrhMcN9+vOA6zUadrh5h1UCUzO7+yROTQKEIt 5W5bFbEEwKkBB3ezwBswljtYsSEmvOpxIyJILWK7aGDv57Qn8gFatSC5eSvwkHFQIxXU +WXWLfQ9xSDhrpK3D8EZZsEdWJp9ea4NI+I9tFTlw8fUx4gwGPK6ldW3HyonAcnjgC1H YIDGxtQvezOxdQjBASAphj5DfD8B+AphRAmsmYUVg845zKD3hRaDVbnK4SqqMWzYcnLW JcyT3ibUUprR0aVe64G3DbxKSCoPgYydidNdh3JosJZtCn68YJEokExgGcRV765Mch0N Lv/w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVhhMwVR2S9HdZDAD5hWA+ZKhr6hDuYk6haTgMwUTfNDCcGq+wa JGzv46nn+UEc1fTi73hVlkUFIkMLhut8Fyei+IU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwrIokumQT7AIOrBjfW5E+1MCTY4POXfQRin9NB4CoKH+X52P0uNMyDs03W0aA+fZSnErNIZxalm1e0R27F//c= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:940b:: with SMTP id v11mr8518007ion.69.1562666950790; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 03:09:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: tirumal reddy Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:38:59 +0530 Message-ID: To: Qin Wu Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008110da058d3cc006" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 10:09:14 -0000 --0000000000008110da058d3cc006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Qin, Please see inline On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 08:30, Qin Wu wrote: > Interesting work, three questions: > > 1. Can the IoT device (D)TLS profile be disclosed to malicious agen= t or IoT device? If not, how do you prevent these sensitive information lea= king? > > It is not sensitive information, on-path network devices can inspect or monitor the TLS handshake without acting as a TLS proxy. In TLS 1.3, ClientHello message is not encrypted and few parameters in the ServerHello message are still visible (such as the chosen cipher). > 2. Do you frequently update DTLS profile disclosed to IoT device to= prevent malicious agent from snooping? > > No, Malware frequently uses its own libraries (SSL config) for its activities, and malware developers will have to develop malicious agents per IoT device type, manufacturer and model (which will be several thousands and practically not possible). > 3. How does enterprise firewal use DTLS profile to detect malicious= flow or legitimate flow? > > If (D)TLS session from the IoT device violates MUD (D)TLS profile, firewall detects the flow is malicious and blocks it. As you may know, Enterprise firewalls inspect TLS handshake and are capable of acting as a (D)TLS proxy (please see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-camwinget-tls-use-cases-05). Cheers, -Tiru -Qin > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] *= =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *tirumal reddy > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A5= 22:03 > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* opsawg@ietf.org; mud@ietf.org > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification for > draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt > > > > This draft https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00 > discusses Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) extension to model (D)TLS > profile on IoT devices. This allows a firewall to notice abnormal DTLS or > TLS usage, which has been a strong indicator of other software running on > the endpoint, typically malware. > > > Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome. > > Cheers, > -Tiru > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 19:18 > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy , Dan Wing > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls > Revision: 00 > Title: MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT devices > Document date: 2019-07-08 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 16 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00 > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls > > > Abstract: > This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to model DTLS > and TLS usage. This allows a network element to notice abnormal DTLS > or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other software > running on the endpoint, typically malware. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > --0000000000008110da058d3cc006 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Qin,

Please see inline
On = Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 08:30, Qin Wu <= bill.wu@huawei.com> wrote:

Interesting work, three que= stions:

1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Can the I=
oT device (D)TLS profile be disclosed to malicious agent or IoT device? If =
not, how do you prevent these sensitive information leaking?
It is not sensitive information, on-path networ= k devices can inspect or monitor the TLS handshake without acting as a TLS = proxy. In TLS 1.3,=C2=A0ClientHello message is not encrypted and few parame= ters in the ServerHello message are still visible (such as the chosen ciphe= r).
=C2=A0
2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Do you fr=
equently update DTLS profile disclosed to IoT device to prevent malicious a=
gent from snooping?
No, Malware f= requently uses its own libraries (SSL config) for its activities, and malwa= re developers will have to develop malicious agents per IoT device type, ma= nufacturer and model (which will be several thousands and practically not p= ossible).=C2=A0
<= /pre>
3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 How does =
enterprise firewal use DTLS profile to detect malicious flow or legitimate =
flow? 
If (D)TLS session from the= IoT device violates MUD (D)TLS profile, firewall detects the flow is malic= ious and blocks it. As you may know, Enterprise firewalls inspect TLS hands= hake and are capable of acting as a (D)TLS proxy (please see=C2=A0https://t= ools.ietf.org/html/draft-camwinget-tls-use-cases-05).=C2=A0
<= br>
Cheers,
-Tiru

-Qin

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: OPSAWG [= mailto:opsawg-= bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 tirumal reddy
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A5 22:03
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: opsaw= g@ietf.org; mud@ietf.= org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tl= s-00.txt

=C2=A0

This draft https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00 di= scusses Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) extension to model (D)TLS prof= ile on IoT devices. This allows a firewall to notice abnormal DTLS or TLS usage, which has been a strong indicator of other sof= tware running on the endpoint, typically malware.=C2=A0


Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome.

Cheers,
-Tiru

=C2=A0

---------- Forwarded message --= -------
From: <int= ernet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 19:18
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>, Dan Wing <danwing@gmail.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT device= s
Document date:=C2=A0 2019-07-08
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker= .ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.= ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls


Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to mode= l DTLS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and TLS usage.=C2=A0 This allows a network element to notice a= bnormal DTLS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other software=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0running on the endpoint, typically malware.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--0000000000008110da058d3cc006-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 07:42:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A5F9120476; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 07:42:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FMRYd3dqy1Hl; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 07:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5314A120438; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 07:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2:56b2:3ff:fe0b:d84]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4323808A; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 10:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67CFA5BE; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 10:41:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "opsawg\@ietf.org" , "mud\@ietf.org" , capport@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Mud] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:42:04 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT. I have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's MUD profile. There are a bunch of issues around this. Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined (I really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) that the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to learn what went on. This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection". This has, I assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human. But, if we have APIs, we can inform device as well. Is this on anyone's radar? -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl0kp7YACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVfGQgAshsJZLknCa1KT1bCVy8JMaU3h0aXlhpxTbNQPuqRn7Cs0FEKCAvSl2p1 XuCHDdp0GGM4gBjbovauCaTX6UMcKHsFiMWSIflbdBnjuQZ41u4AmN5+7uNVzwyD fIMWhNQMp6+E2ikxfwFz9SR/HiNsIlmKPQDDa4o83OqgJHWy9NRO2YWTVzrkMw3c NeySMvNxwa5Hzwal4dWv8OAgYsT5z2cDo9WI6wsk8aUb9Ac89+RZl1JVjeMmlXjm S2aaVzGM1RIvnIrsFbQYupg/HP2F2P0vKUHNBKASoJYv6fu595eqDHYzKktBsbDx dZ44Ak1NefKNZAbvec9DWgjfGzFocA== =pFHc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 07:54:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6BFD120165; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 07:54:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KbrG76NsrjAW; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 07:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DCE612016A; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 07:54:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1819; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1562684048; x=1563893648; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=pX7SE1Yy28cTJo69wsR84zkvGex97mjQdAogoJWaVKE=; b=WAqqMNKchzkEtnQhEXCEDnStnHlUUtlDvPmktR4lTMO1RYtmOboq1JW7 Vsl/mMOQ2X42YuHPB/Nu/Q2CF853A+RjCy2zK6kyfa1ZUGS91C6pnigcR iobJf/Bc9bWEbdqThrq8p9Xigh7+zplkszigPsSiBel+iEZHqTUJ9wYlB 0=; X-Files: signature.asc : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AWAACXqSRd/xbLJq1mGgEBAQEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEHAgEBAQGBVgIBAQEBCwGCFmpSIBIohByIe4tzmm8CBwEBAQkDAQEvAQG?= =?us-ascii?q?BS4J1AoJmNwYOAQMBAQQBAQIBBW2FSIVKAQEBAQIBI1YFCwsYKgICVwYTgyI?= =?us-ascii?q?BgXsPq3OBMoVHhF0QgTQBgVCKJYF/gTgfgkw+h04ygiYElGaVbAmCGYIfgQy?= =?us-ascii?q?EbYttG4IslVShZIMKAgQGBQIVgWYigVgzGggbFWUBgkE+kEk9AzCQBAEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.63,470,1557187200"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="14118064" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 09 Jul 2019 14:54:05 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-105-202.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-105-202.cisco.com [10.61.105.202]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x69Es56w016592 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:54:05 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6DD4917D-FC86-4217-A788-C0367EA1BB1C"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:54:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4486.1562683318@localhost> Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" , capport@ietf.org To: Michael Richardson References: <4486.1562683318@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.105.202, dhcp-10-61-105-202.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:54:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6DD4917D-FC86-4217-A788-C0367EA1BB1C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work. Can you show a flow = that will work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)? Eliot > On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part >=20 > Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT. > I have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's MUD > profile. There are a bunch of issues around this. >=20 > Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined > (I really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) > that the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device = to > learn what went on. >=20 > This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most = enterprise > NEA systems upon encountering "infection". This has, I assume, = involved > forced HTTP proxies to inform human. But, if we have APIs, we can = inform > device as well. >=20 > Is this on anyone's radar? >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_6DD4917D-FC86-4217-A788-C0367EA1BB1C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXSSqjAAKCRBugA9nE248 uL/sAJ9FcwIHbPZOOmRd15FQFxsy5l9OzgCgkVGhWAXynktZWlHLnTLVwpXJgOE= =MOwf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_6DD4917D-FC86-4217-A788-C0367EA1BB1C-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 11:39:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A64D120A1E; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:39:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RFmnVk7byNww; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 029C9120A3A; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2:56b2:3ff:fe0b:d84]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57313808A; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:36:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45AC05D0; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:38:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Eliot Lear cc: "opsawg\@ietf.org" , "mud\@ietf.org" , capport@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> References: <4486.1562683318@localhost> <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 18:39:08 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eliot Lear wrote: > I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work. Can you show a flow= that will > work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)? Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolated "VLAN". I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it's a "MAC-address VLAN", not an 802.1Q thing. It's really just a layer-2 ACL. {We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it's packets, nor can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can't do a "port-based" VLAN, because wifi has no ports, and we don't really know how many unmanaged switches might be on the port anyway. One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone} Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category, all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-acces= s/) would go into a captive portal system. Such a system would, according to https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture/ receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed. (While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a URI in it at one point, that is not the current design) Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIGHT? Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/ to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point, it can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a timer goes off. (%) This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point, whi= ch https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can deliver via DHCPv4/v6 or RA. >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson >> wrote: >> >> Signed PGP part >> >> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT. I >> have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's MUD >> profile. There are a bunch of issues around this. >> >> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined (I >> really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) that >> the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to >> learn what went on. >> >> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most >> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection". This has, I >> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human. But, if we ha= ve >> APIs, we can inform device as well. >> >> Is this on anyone's radar? >> >> -- >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >> >> >> >> >> =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl0k30EACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVCFgf9HXMbqXU95/TvL9H3KN0m/fWasiZPiknBzfW9W+6oNb+6Rve99Sxk4wbu EmeK2AgJp7NkrPJHcMj8UohCAY3od3synNvUH7RnxoKJnbKCFM6BsN2ZWFqsG5M0 NuZ0e86VAAfBMhpuH5re7ilqY0pWkSCfKT+1UURGHk0cjaKy7/Uo4J2D6L1KmdW2 pEJYzp3cdh/JYcpZRcbMobeZlOy5kTftTZ94w8OnAZRbv9hBw3xoJW+bN2UU6sy+ GIGV9IIHJx9/K+doe8LporjdZV3IrcruokuU8kMK0T+V0KiugUyXoisQbKKjakpE MM6cSxkL33eChPtH2lv1zFTdT4V2Bg== =8Zjt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 11:41:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F18B120A5B; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:41:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZFG6u4iTe67u; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA5C0120A51; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2:56b2:3ff:fe0b:d84]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 887973808A; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E44DC5D0; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:41:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: captive-portals@ietf.org, opsawg@ietf.org, mud@ietf.org X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Mud] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal (fwd) Michael Richardson: putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 18:41:38 -0000 --===-=-= Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="==-=-=" --==-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Again, a WG whose ML is not the WG name, and there is no alias. ARGH. Here are some emails that didn't get to captive-portals@ietf.org. Sorry for the duplication for others. --==-=-= Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline; filename=2966 Content-Description: forwarded message From: Michael Richardson To: "opsawg\@ietf.org" , "mud\@ietf.org" , capport@ietf.org Subject: putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0;<'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT. I have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's MUD profile. There are a bunch of issues around this. Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined (I really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) that the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to learn what went on. This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection". This has, I assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human. But, if we have APIs, we can inform device as well. Is this on anyone's radar? -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl0kp7YACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVfGQgAshsJZLknCa1KT1bCVy8JMaU3h0aXlhpxTbNQPuqRn7Cs0FEKCAvSl2p1 XuCHDdp0GGM4gBjbovauCaTX6UMcKHsFiMWSIflbdBnjuQZ41u4AmN5+7uNVzwyD fIMWhNQMp6+E2ikxfwFz9SR/HiNsIlmKPQDDa4o83OqgJHWy9NRO2YWTVzrkMw3c NeySMvNxwa5Hzwal4dWv8OAgYsT5z2cDo9WI6wsk8aUb9Ac89+RZl1JVjeMmlXjm S2aaVzGM1RIvnIrsFbQYupg/HP2F2P0vKUHNBKASoJYv6fu595eqDHYzKktBsbDx dZ44Ak1NefKNZAbvec9DWgjfGzFocA== =pFHc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- --==-=-= Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline; filename=2978 Content-Description: forwarded message From: Michael Richardson To: Eliot Lear cc: "opsawg\@ietf.org" , "mud\@ietf.org" , capport@ietf.org Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal In-Reply-To: <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> References: <4486.1562683318@localhost> <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0;<'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eliot Lear wrote: > I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work. Can you show a flow= that will > work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)? Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolated "VLAN". I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it's a "MAC-address VLAN", not an 802.1Q thing. It's really just a layer-2 ACL. {We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it's packets, nor can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can't do a "port-based" VLAN, because wifi has no ports, and we don't really know how many unmanaged switches might be on the port anyway. One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone} Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category, all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-acces= s/) would go into a captive portal system. Such a system would, according to https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture/ receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed. (While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a URI in it at one point, that is not the current design) Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIGHT? Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/ to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point, it can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a timer goes off. (%) This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point, whi= ch https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can deliver via DHCPv4/v6 or RA. >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson >> wrote: >> >> Signed PGP part >> >> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT. I >> have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's MUD >> profile. There are a bunch of issues around this. >> >> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined (I >> really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) that >> the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to >> learn what went on. >> >> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most >> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection". This has, I >> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human. But, if we ha= ve >> APIs, we can inform device as well. >> >> Is this on anyone's radar? >> >> -- >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >> >> >> >> >> =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl0k30EACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVCFgf9HXMbqXU95/TvL9H3KN0m/fWasiZPiknBzfW9W+6oNb+6Rve99Sxk4wbu EmeK2AgJp7NkrPJHcMj8UohCAY3od3synNvUH7RnxoKJnbKCFM6BsN2ZWFqsG5M0 NuZ0e86VAAfBMhpuH5re7ilqY0pWkSCfKT+1UURGHk0cjaKy7/Uo4J2D6L1KmdW2 pEJYzp3cdh/JYcpZRcbMobeZlOy5kTftTZ94w8OnAZRbv9hBw3xoJW+bN2UU6sy+ GIGV9IIHJx9/K+doe8LporjdZV3IrcruokuU8kMK0T+V0KiugUyXoisQbKKjakpE MM6cSxkL33eChPtH2lv1zFTdT4V2Bg== =8Zjt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- --==-=-= Content-Type: text/plain -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --==-=-=-- --===-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl0k39IACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUt7ggAgtXKlL/AdI86uOdbGYo8CDEVKCp91uZPx1biyL7TgecvAfVcKQ8o4CQx me1fsw7BzttGdxEOCbl+i80W/NC2oGu2ZKWJ0cRyXXdAfnW6xqXzJuhycrtkWUlF /N9iD7n8TveHwApksLpjZVyqsqj9efDlGRxgWjxtkqQXFphN45nVulDnVxBxw1GK UQttxaCM2YCG329NLYB0cjGHyPmm3FCVNcAO/8Ap82jE34GZO8IxCQZQtBweAmG/ jbDhx0oCPW/+AK+cVhlEJLDuaKHFVv4vMf8b8Xr3aanlAhLMcFEzJxoEey/bBLtK Rs9qeehNRVKicR2Kf34Gl7JSHrBe6g== =0Bmg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --===-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 11:52:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51026120AD3; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:52:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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d="asc'?scan'208";a="14123268" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 09 Jul 2019 18:52:27 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-102-2.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-102-2.cisco.com [10.61.102.2]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x69IqPBV027822 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:52:26 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_83F63F30-421B-40DD-B387-6592867E8E25"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:52:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: <27334.1562697538@localhost> Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" , capport@ietf.org To: Michael Richardson References: <4486.1562683318@localhost> <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> <27334.1562697538@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.102.2, dhcp-10-61-102-2.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 18:52:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_83F63F30-421B-40DD-B387-6592867E8E25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 It=E2=80=99s the following part that I=E2=80=99m thinking about: > On 9 Jul 2019, at 20:38, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > Such a system would, according to > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture/ > receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed. > (While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a > URI in it at one point, that is not the current design) >=20 > Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the > appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIGHT? >=20 > Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API > described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/ > to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which = point, it > can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot = if a > timer goes off. (%) >=20 You are suggesting that a device self-remediate. Some devices may be = able to eventually do that, but I have my doubts. Were I a hacker, I = would have the device pretend to do just that. And so this ties = somewhat to RATS. I think a MUD extension might be able to help in as = much as one could imagine a =E2=80=9Cremediation=E2=80=9D = recommendation. Eliot > This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end = point, which > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can = deliver > via DHCPv4/v6 or RA. >=20 >=20 >>> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> Signed PGP part >>>=20 >>> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT. = I >>> have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's MUD >>> profile. There are a bunch of issues around this. >>>=20 >>> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined = (I >>> really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) that >>> the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to >>> learn what went on. >>>=20 >>> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most >>> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection". This has, I >>> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human. But, if we = have >>> APIs, we can inform device as well. >>>=20 >>> Is this on anyone's radar? >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >>> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_83F63F30-421B-40DD-B387-6592867E8E25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXSTiaQAKCRBugA9nE248 uMHIAKDUcRacYBgbWRZhQ5d0clIC/SXP6ACg5cAWlKZqPtw273AD/Mp4sMmk5Qg= =CmVm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_83F63F30-421B-40DD-B387-6592867E8E25-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 13:13:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5642D12007A; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:13:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q300ZOUDJTka; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11B7B12006D; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id k20so45886112ios.10; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 13:13:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5M+w7LovCm6hcYDPkf71k+gOyQv0IdqrizW2vYtzcs8=; b=rzu+PnzEoBS/qd7p7p17jnL0zDmqJNLHV7Ww9y81fICacncrVByzVtTHFwvVVt5dd9 2lm9H4qS+vgca4rcm5jAp8+hMT/vgMCW6ZnrE/CAGkbN9nV8fNb4o7XrJr7GpDGC0PkO vwF7sWlS3XKOkyxnzAjLiw/wN83eeQxyk1Ng4nyv2i2gLIqWK+2R2PlqDa1cfMAQhP5T R/TDVISs0e5lDLyqRL/tbwOC2KDrU2WK1mFaZ400q0+UK2/mB6IVc9uYaiTrYrzebmMv jrsO1Nxw9t0FHWocz5hFzPtttTApOMJfeR8fEzwbPDHYFgMBByot7tib9VnHIIK8ohV+ 94iQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5M+w7LovCm6hcYDPkf71k+gOyQv0IdqrizW2vYtzcs8=; b=QInsQPBKjtZS5Z489+rYjZBvlekn+Jrbq2GA2h8mTtdYFz33pUwcVlKqQh5mnwhCmL 9cDRHi3/k1E8n4Fzur8lTZanczNMwkmzb/8mMmGnDOOpSPd4di/S8U6LlhHhEjfArIbM osq0AvMJZZy4md4ZKlgBV2rMG6KrLZJlfgdjJxhFU/NHpwmDfHA0dZopYEAlne6vH5tC 4VLhVoDo5Lgzot43tPMkMTwBK6tfvykD0CqDnx00TRXhU5kw85PTD8QZxt0nZfU4O1Oz aCLR7eEDeU/RUjDTBP34qW2nQArCafivWeDJ3XUEaCLg3tzDIxQ52eNaZfmt+7JiwxG3 enrw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVA+791ZgmDSCC1o3aKUYaDD8VKCjMziE0jK3LdfnYJSUM+GNzc Rd7xhGiQVJQrJ594+bW6fT83p6US0g8YgkRij08= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzat/lg3Zzyt7gIDMSmoEKE6sBzWPqNNmKVtlLkbPn0H75lTQfVDetSQCiZ8uMRL+RsCD6TomjyuyqpMg13DLQ= X-Received: by 2002:a02:340d:: with SMTP id x13mr30066336jae.125.1562703222955; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 13:13:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4486.1562683318@localhost> <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> <27334.1562697538@localhost> In-Reply-To: <27334.1562697538@localhost> From: "M. Ranganathan" Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:13:06 -0400 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: Eliot Lear , "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" , capport@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007f53ed058d4532ca" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 20:13:47 -0000 --0000000000007f53ed058d4532ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The current draft https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/ Assumes that the "quarantined device" can access a subset of the ACE's allowed to the "unquarantined" device. However, I can think of a scenario where this does not have to be the case. I'd propose to generalize this. i.e. There are two sets of ACL's - one for normal operation and one for quarantined access. (i.e. quarantine access is not necessarily a subset of regular access). Use case: Under normal circumstances, the device does not need SSH access (port 22 is not open). However, if the device is misbehaving some external agent (or human maybe) logs in and investigates the issue. The fix could involve copying new firmware. Does this make sense? Another thing that is missing currently is how to "clear" the quarantine state at the enforcement point. This would need an API defintion of we want to make that portable. Regards, Ranga On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 2:39 PM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Eliot Lear wrote: > > I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work. Can you show a fl= ow that > will > > work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)? > > Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolated > "VLAN". I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it's a "MAC-address > VLAN", not an 802.1Q thing. It's really just a layer-2 ACL. > > {We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it's packets, > nor > can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can't do a "port-based" VLAN, > because wifi has no ports, and we don't really know how many unmanaged > switches might be on the port anyway. > One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone} > > Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category, > all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-acc= ess/ > ) > would go into a captive portal system. > > Such a system would, according to > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture/ > receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed. > (While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a > URI in it at one point, that is not the current design) > > Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the > appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIGHT? > > Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API > described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/ > to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point, = it > can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a > timer goes off. (%) > > This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point, > which > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can > deliver > via DHCPv4/v6 or RA. > > > >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson > >> wrote: > >> > >> Signed PGP part > >> > >> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT. > I > >> have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's M= UD > >> profile. There are a bunch of issues around this. > >> > >> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined > (I > >> really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) tha= t > >> the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to > >> learn what went on. > >> > >> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most > >> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection". This has, I > >> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human. But, if we > have > >> APIs, we can inform device as well. > >> > >> Is this on anyone's radar? > >> > >> -- > >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software > Works > >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > -- > Mud mailing list > Mud@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud > --=20 M. Ranganathan --0000000000007f53ed058d4532ca Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Assumes that the "quar= antined device" can access a subset of the ACE's allowed to the &q= uot;unquarantined" device.
However, I can think of a scenari= o where this does not have to be the case. I'd propose to generalize th= is.

i.e. There are two sets of ACL's - one for= normal operation and one for quarantined access. (i.e. quarantine access i= s not necessarily a subset of regular access).

Use case:

Under normal circumstances, the device = does not need SSH access (port 22 is not open). However, if the device is m= isbehaving some external agent (or human maybe) logs in and investigates th= e issue.=C2=A0 The fix could involve copying new firmware.

Does this=C2=A0make sense?

Another thing = that is missing currently is how to "clear" the quarantine state = at the enforcement point. This would need an API defintion of we want to ma= ke that portable.

Regards,

Ranga


On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 2:39 PM Michael Richar= dson <mcr+i= etf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

Eliot Lear <lear@cis= co.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work.=C2=A0 C= an you show a flow that will
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)?<= br>
Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolated "VLAN".=C2=A0 I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it'= s a "MAC-address
VLAN", not an 802.1Q thing.=C2=A0 It's really just a layer-2 ACL.<= br>
{We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it's packets= , nor
can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can't do a "port-based&q= uot; VLAN,
because wifi has no ports, and we don't really know how many unmanaged<= br> switches might be on the port anyway.
One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone}

Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category,
all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement
https://datatracker.iet= f.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-access/)
would go into a captive portal system.

Such a system would, according to
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr= aft-ietf-capport-architecture/
receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed.
(While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a
URI in it at one point, that is not the current design)

Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the
appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIG= HT?

Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API
described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-ietf-capport-api/
to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point, it=
can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a timer goes off.=C2=A0 (%)

This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point, whi= ch
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can deliver
via DHCPv4/v6 or RA.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman= .ca>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Signed PGP part
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking = about CAPPORT.=C2=A0 I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> have been working on what to do when an IoT device v= iolates it's MUD
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> profile.=C2=A0 There are a bunch of issues around th= is.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device = is quarantined (I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> really think it should be "quaranteed", bu= t that's not a word) that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> the capport controls and APIs should be available to= the device to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> learn what went on.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> This is not new, I think that this as been the appro= ach of most
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infec= tion".=C2=A0 This has, I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human= .=C2=A0 But, if we have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> APIs, we can inform device as well.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Is this on anyone's radar?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> --
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman So= ftware Works
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



--
Mud mailing list
Mud@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud


--
M. = Ranganathan

<= /div>
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Ranganathan" Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:16:39 -0400 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: Eliot Lear , "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000026dcba058d453f0e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 20:17:19 -0000 --00000000000026dcba058d453f0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 4:13 PM M. Ranganathan wrote: > The current draft https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api= / > Wrong reference, I meant https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-acces= s/ (sorry for extra email load). Assumes that the "quarantined device" can access a subset of the ACE's > allowed to the "unquarantined" device. > However, I can think of a scenario where this does not have to be the > case. I'd propose to generalize this. > > i.e. There are two sets of ACL's - one for normal operation and one for > quarantined access. (i.e. quarantine access is not necessarily a subset o= f > regular access). > > Use case: > > Under normal circumstances, the device does not need SSH access (port 22 > is not open). However, if the device is misbehaving some external agent (= or > human maybe) logs in and investigates the issue. The fix could involve > copying new firmware. > > Does this make sense? > > Another thing that is missing currently is how to "clear" the quarantine > state at the enforcement point. This would need an API defintion of we wa= nt > to make that portable. > > Regards, > > Ranga > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 2:39 PM Michael Richardson > wrote: > >> >> Eliot Lear wrote: >> > I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work. Can you show a f= low that >> will >> > work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)? >> >> Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolate= d >> "VLAN". I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it's a "MAC-address >> VLAN", not an 802.1Q thing. It's really just a layer-2 ACL. >> >> {We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it's packets, >> nor >> can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can't do a "port-based" VLAN, >> because wifi has no ports, and we don't really know how many unmanaged >> switches might be on the port anyway. >> One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone} >> >> Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category, >> all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-ac= cess/ >> ) >> would go into a captive portal system. >> >> Such a system would, according to >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture/ >> receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed. >> (While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a >> URI in it at one point, that is not the current design) >> >> Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the >> appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIGHT? >> >> Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API >> described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/ >> to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point, >> it >> can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if = a >> timer goes off. (%) >> >> This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point, >> which >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can >> deliver >> via DHCPv4/v6 or RA. >> >> >> >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson > > >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Signed PGP part >> >> >> >> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about >> CAPPORT. I >> >> have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's >> MUD >> >> profile. There are a bunch of issues around this. >> >> >> >> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantine= d >> (I >> >> really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) th= at >> >> the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device t= o >> >> learn what went on. >> >> >> >> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most >> >> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection". This has, = I >> >> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human. But, if we >> have >> >> APIs, we can inform device as well. >> >> >> >> Is this on anyone's radar? >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software >> Works >> >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >> >> >> >> -- >> Mud mailing list >> Mud@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud >> > > > -- > M. Ranganathan > > --=20 M. Ranganathan --00000000000026dcba058d453f0e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 4:13 PM M. Ranganathan <mranga@gmail.com> wro= te:


<= /div>
Wrong reference, I meant


=

(sorry for extra email = load).

Assumes that the "quarantined device"= ; can access a subset of the ACE's allowed to the "unquarantined&q= uot; device.
However, I can think of a scenario where this does n= ot have to be the case. I'd propose to generalize this.

<= /div>
i.e. There are two sets of ACL's - one for normal operation a= nd one for quarantined access. (i.e. quarantine access is not necessarily a= subset of regular access).

Use case:

Under normal circumstances, the device does not need SSH a= ccess (port 22 is not open). However, if the device is misbehaving some ext= ernal agent (or human maybe) logs in and investigates the issue.=C2=A0 The = fix could involve copying new firmware.

Does this= =C2=A0make sense?

Another thing that is missing cu= rrently is how to "clear" the quarantine state at the enforcement= point. This would need an API defintion of we want to make that portable.<= br>

Regards,

Ranga


On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 2:39 PM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca= > wrote:
=
Eliot Lear <lear@cis= co.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work.=C2=A0 C= an you show a flow that will
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)?<= br>
Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolated "VLAN".=C2=A0 I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it'= s a "MAC-address
VLAN", not an 802.1Q thing.=C2=A0 It's really just a layer-2 ACL.<= br>
{We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it's packets= , nor
can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can't do a "port-based&q= uot; VLAN,
because wifi has no ports, and we don't really know how many unmanaged<= br> switches might be on the port anyway.
One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone}

Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category,
all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement
https://datatracker.iet= f.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-access/)
would go into a captive portal system.

Such a system would, according to
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr= aft-ietf-capport-architecture/
receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed.
(While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a
URI in it at one point, that is not the current design)

Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the
appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIG= HT?

Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API
described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-ietf-capport-api/
to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point, it=
can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a timer goes off.=C2=A0 (%)

This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point, whi= ch
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can deliver
via DHCPv4/v6 or RA.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman= .ca>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Signed PGP part
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking = about CAPPORT.=C2=A0 I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> have been working on what to do when an IoT device v= iolates it's MUD
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> profile.=C2=A0 There are a bunch of issues around th= is.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device = is quarantined (I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> really think it should be "quaranteed", bu= t that's not a word) that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> the capport controls and APIs should be available to= the device to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> learn what went on.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> This is not new, I think that this as been the appro= ach of most
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infec= tion".=C2=A0 This has, I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human= .=C2=A0 But, if we have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> APIs, we can inform device as well.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Is this on anyone's radar?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> --
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman So= ftware Works
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



--
Mud mailing list
Mud@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud


--
M. Ranganathan

=


--
M.= Ranganathan

=
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--_000_420BE1C3BA844306BD72B7CE9905B659nistgov_-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 14:04:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00789120046; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:04:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 99Y4D96y3TG6; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57E3A12000E; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:04:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3206; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1562706254; x=1563915854; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=oI9zADzJArfY1gwTPou08A+SH6PNDHygR9TpU/yNsqI=; b=Dikr1VnlwyQgWpnX7thDzavcwcb5nYDCT0Q0A+erri2Nk3Ru63Jo8IUA 1q54Pg7Nc3gcHTcWppmXALIXSFjfnPWNRoFZps75wmERruaFolcdOSRLk Lxal1XmHdXwqohN7glJgtqtNt6BlLWVAsMDdSVsR5E0pqQ+xZ/Nn9Mb6W U=; X-Files: signature.asc : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0APAABMACVd/xbLJq1mGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAQGBVgEBAQEBAQsBg1IyKIQciHuLTyWabwIHAQEBCQMBAS8?= =?us-ascii?q?BAYFLgnUCgmY3Bg4BAwEBBAEBAgEFbYVIhUoBAQEBAgEdBlYFCwsYKgICVwY?= =?us-ascii?q?TFIMOAYF7D6xKgTKFR4RcEIE0AYFQiiWBf4ERJwwTgh4uPodOMoImBJRmlWw?= =?us-ascii?q?JghmCH4EMkFobjTKKToQRnVODCgIEBgUCFYFmIoFYMxoIGxVlAYJBPpBJPQM?= =?us-ascii?q?wj1gBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.63,472,1557187200"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="14066915" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 09 Jul 2019 21:04:12 +0000 Received: from [10.61.166.105] ([10.61.166.105]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x69L3PBw020970 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:04:11 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <7A0D6F9C-F3A3-4207-BFCE-38AB0AFA4E7D@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_409D4659-929B-40F4-A44A-DFC93E1AF07F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 23:04:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: <29188.1561913378@localhost> Cc: iot-onboarding@ietf.org, mud@ietf.org To: Michael Richardson References: <29188.1561913378@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.166.105, [10.61.166.105] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] Side meeting at the IETF Montreal - call for agenda items X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 21:04:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_409D4659-929B-40F4-A44A-DFC93E1AF07F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Good conversation to have in Montreal. > On 30 Jun 2019, at 18:49, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part >=20 > Eliot Lear wrote: >> A number of people have contacted me about meeting in Montreal, and >> that they wouldn=E2=80=99t be available after Tuesday. Conveniently, = Monday >> morning is reserved for side meetings. I propose we take advantage = of >> this from 9:00 - 10:30 (yes, this bleeds into the 1st session). >=20 > It bleeds into teep, and I'm curious about the loops BOF, so I = probably take > off at the appointed time. >=20 >> I=E2=80=99ve combined MUD and IoT Onboarding, just to save time, as = there is >> substantial community overlap. That=E2=80=99s because the spaces are = clearly >> related, one being authentication of the device the other being = network >> authorization. >=20 > Agreed. >=20 >> This, then, is a call for agenda items. I have a few of my own, but >> would prefer to hear from others first. Also, are you ok with the >> Monday morning time slot and keeping these activities together? >=20 >> Ps: reminder: side meetings are not =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D = anything. Just a >> gathering of people with a common interest. However, the meeting = will >> run under the IPR rules of the IETF, regardless. All are invited. >=20 > So, I'm not sure if you are asking for BRSKI items, or IoT onboarding = items in general. >=20 > 1) Under BRSKI for non-ANIMA ACP uses, there is the question about = open/closed > registrars, and operational considerations of total sales channel = integration > (MASA knows the customers), vs retail integration (no knowledge of > customers). There are probably areas of grey in between that might = be > worth enumerating. >=20 > 2) There is a similar question for MUD, which is how does the MUD = controller > arrive at trust criteria for the signatures. This is the > enterprise/customer side of the above story: do you know who you are > buying from? > This relates to the discussion we have had about controllers: I = think if > we could pin down the quality of the signatures, we could say more. >=20 > 3) MUD Operational considerations for devices that can grow "skills" >=20 > Not really a topic exactly: but how do we get towards the point where = we can test > MUD/BRSKI integration. >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_409D4659-929B-40F4-A44A-DFC93E1AF07F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXSUBSwAKCRBugA9nE248 uOmjAJ4wMwk2L38eJVdIb6A5wGKMnF7AQgCgsxrw7R1pQPf+LAqliVgIsbhYRhI= =W0Cm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_409D4659-929B-40F4-A44A-DFC93E1AF07F-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 17:49:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262F21200CE; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:49:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EbwBYzHgIqFi; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 938FF1200C4; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2:56b2:3ff:fe0b:d84]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B64353808A; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B33C5BE; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:49:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Eliot Lear cc: "opsawg\@ietf.org" , "mud\@ietf.org" , captive-portal@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <4486.1562683318@localhost> <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> <27334.1562697538@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:49:29 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eliot Lear wrote: > It=E2=80=99s the following part that I=E2=80=99m thinking about: ... >> to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which po= int, it >> can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot= if a >> timer goes off. (%) > You are suggesting that a device self-remediate. Some devices may be > able to eventually do that, but I have my doubts. Were I a hacker, I > would have the device pretend to do just that. And so this ties > somewhat to RATS. I think a MUD extension might be able to help in as > much as one could imagine a =E2=80=9Cremediation=E2=80=9D recommendat= ion. Yes, so a full attack on the IoT device would do what you describe. A partial attack might miss messing this. A reboot might clear out the malware, or might mitigate it enough (such as going to boot firmware) that would permit new firmware to be loaded. Yes, getting completely out of the quarantine would require either attestation or human intervention. But, if the device now has good firmwar= e, it would be able to send the "please unquarantine me" signal. =2D- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect = [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [ =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl0lNhMACgkQgItw+93Q 3WU12wf/UULW/3tZ3bmXiOiCwAftppacxs1lAmQC8+UdvKWjVMIBV5UeA2qHl+l3 5Jnhi0vnrRv/5REpw+FCRqJXHMiAz0xPf7t69XMjvjF1WwUvdZPWRQdDfBQn6L/4 6RrdlCePkmHT0W2cHT/LJLP8UXCUL1sqzGXs8iD9ji0s6torjKFTIKhWR3h8bLPF j0fLSkSkIoeqyuEdexOIUZu8/kU2RJY3LOGGwEcaszwc3eqcdjOyT7J2ZJvKZ+mP pJWyd/ZLHSEOxf9llYqgb7zos1mGkikNhuYB/OX1bMcC86j7C7pEk8UMtEtHu4ls xphT0AY4kYSqPDI5HXW3F1rI3f8uzg== =6OhK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 17:53:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B41E120251; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:53:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MiEnXlVsK-dt; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 628E912029F; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807AE3808A; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:50:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457275BE; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:53:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Eliot Lear , "opsawg\@ietf.org" , "mud\@ietf.org" , captive-portals@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20190709194614.pbqcbi7dvk75w4ms@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <4486.1562683318@localhost> <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> <27334.1562697538@localhost> <20190709194614.pbqcbi7dvk75w4ms@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:53:11 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > would an ICMP "administratively prohibited" not be a sufficient > signal? Sure, things can be made much more complex, but I doubt that > devices will try to actively investigate why they can't communicate Probably good enough. Some wanted a more specific signal. It's intended to just be a signal to go ask the captive portal API if the device is captive. > (and implement additional protocols for this) if all they can do at > the end is to change the color of an led or simply shut-off (i.e., > stop assuming its a temporary network issue and reduce/stop probing > effort). -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl0lNusACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXCvAf+IDwK6e2CRmcF9OnSO9Dbzj0G3nFZy7WMDZtsTqAdVKDAR//xF5ULBYON dSi5c0bDG+WGdy929VGVFgk6GhLoXEgHMbWnOQCF7n4TaaiIufJB3E7XTjiuZrdK xu7NJjAnphyLctZYXFE9WsJKAj1MqZoJ2vxC/tLvSAFgo59o2l/viLazRNszIDAd lhsnMfGAmwCwKoOIThKjR0z4eVUL2QnYRXAa8oTUwIMwQqHZ9jurEA3pNPqFEI1/ cpJqumD56Bn8fdHNs1UNqFQVx7qyd1GYhkylJC0E+KHv5a5PowIURfclMB6hR73a VKx2UEI+lLsNLcjsWSGb4EkA8XypZA== =X51p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 18:01:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D031200C4 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:01:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l1fU37KUt2Hk for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BCDE1200F6 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2:56b2:3ff:fe0b:d84]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB173808A; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 989D95BE; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:01:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "M. Ranganathan" , "mud\@ietf.org" X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Mud] different modes for MUD files X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:01:10 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain {starting a new thread with a new subject line} M. Ranganathan wrote: > The current draft https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/ > Assumes that the "quarantined device" can access a subset of the ACE's > allowed to the "unquarantined" device. > However, I can think of a scenario where this does not have to be the case. > I'd propose to generalize this. > i.e. There are two sets of ACL's - one for normal operation and one for > quarantined access. (i.e. quarantine access is not necessarily a subset of > regular access). I can agree with the idea. > Use case: > Under normal circumstances, the device does not need SSH access (port 22 is > not open). However, if the device is misbehaving some external agent (or > human maybe) logs in and investigates the issue. The fix could involve > copying new firmware. > Does this make sense? Yes, but I'd like to term this the "debug" or "diagnostic" access. I suggest that this is easily done by switching MUD files in/out. Rather than try to create profiles within A mud file, I suggest multiple mud files. What we should do is to create references to alternate profiles that could be used. > Another thing that is missing currently is how to "clear" the quarantine > state at the enforcement point. This would need an API defintion of we want > to make that portable. Yes, that does require an API. The SHG project has developed one, but the document is stale. It can't be the device that invokes the API, it must be be the operator. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl0lONEACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVNzQf7BjLl3CPcsC6dRqK8G6dh54wVVtVMh3Dchepo/Op/+3rAIznmE+44gdgE qOHTSWdTGzL5IbmSYJymEyk4P5kRVesGFiNj9sZZRzvd6Frkk+fRMjPqMq4XpEyq muApQjXvIcGE0a6GSr8IqqorXTZkE5NYK6+DjQg40g1xj0Xyrn7+XzVpSKCRsjVV HRDpZcUYKgeaUYgA7ptpFLu+EnmhKm5ETvUFqEQXClXONwGVhq8fizugaTYS2O0o 3edvJap79moGhRE3p07Djdf6eiHs0Kq/zHn611JzRz3pvH4bVwyz3jeSViG62v9C mFM7opOupUfpe5CWrt6s0GCuuwUfyQ== =nAis -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 18:05:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D94C1200C4; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:05:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yuE763QwAASr; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CCF51200F6; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B8D3808A; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:02:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D37E45D0; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:05:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Montgomery\, Douglas \(Fed\)" cc: "M. Ranganathan" , "opsawg\@ietf.org" , "mud\@ietf.org" , Eliot Lear , captive-portals@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <420BE1C3-BA84-4306-BD72-B7CE9905B659@nist.gov> References: <4486.1562683318@localhost> <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> <27334.1562697538@localhost> <420BE1C3-BA84-4306-BD72-B7CE9905B659@nist.gov> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:05:06 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Montgomery, Douglas (Fed) wrote: > Most of the devices I think of as actual IoT devices have no direct > UI/shell. Your only interaction with them after initial > =E2=80=9Cinstall/configure=E2=80=9D is through their cloud web servic= e interface. That's true for many devices, but not all. Even light bulbs have output interfaces :-) > Having said that I think your model is fine. Good. > I would suggest detecting device reboot would be one signal to clear > quarantine state. Since MUD =E2=80=9Cmisbehavior=E2=80=9D is mostly = instantaneously > detectable (1 packet), I am not that concerned that the device might > reboot for others reasons and still be infected. Device reboot probably needs an attestation to be believed. > One might keep a counter and a time stamp of quarantine clears and if > you a device had N MUD violations after quarantine clears in X time, > lock it down in quarantine or completely take it off line. Reasonable, but in the space of quality of implementation, I think. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl0lOb0ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUy2Af/TjU5TjVJOZN1N/Vh90bGxFVgbe0W/bmMkZNrTYq4giKl9iz3cPJEWYdf Q/MnjY0H1LNan3gKfBEO3NFbITeoXFlzw5zApqevYBcWk9D9Z0CW8CsFKzoa1MYf NXD/1ZAjbmX2nt8JsoA7Z2RZsEhg+HZWucq9BopQTaUNDYIT0nt1b7O3k1fi/oxN YbaxYO5X6BzYopByEk5JnMYmhlEyJz5miG2qehvRB4lE4gv/rTR1D1qaaDARZxVg TVDGx3SvqyVMzQiPRJ67bpK/dU2nc63KfvbSjF9uVjgmKQL/MMErJ7Ljb6TzUziJ p+xSuJpiE1PXAkIFPwnVws786LDReA== =Jkny -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 18:16:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8978A12008F; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:16:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lU1pcIyLSn61; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B1AB120048; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05813808A; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:13:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D23B5D0; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:15:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: John Romkey cc: Eliot Lear , captive-portals@ietf.org, "opsawg\@ietf.org" , "mud\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <46656FBE-06E8-4E65-AF61-4BDE2F206F00@romkey.com> References: <4486.1562683318@localhost> <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> <27334.1562697538@localhost> <18178.1562719763@localhost> <46656FBE-06E8-4E65-AF61-4BDE2F206F00@romkey.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:16:01 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {my appologies for still getting captive-portal vs captive-portals@ wrong} John Romkey wrote: >> Eliot Lear wrote: >> >>>> to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which = point, it >>>> can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just rebo= ot if a >>>> timer goes off. (%) >> >>> You are suggesting that a device self-remediate. Some devices may = be >>> able to eventually do that, but I have my doubts. Were I a hacker,= I >>> would have the device pretend to do just that. And so this ties >>> somewhat to RATS. I think a MUD extension might be able to help in= as >>> much as one could imagine a =E2=80=9Cremediation=E2=80=9D recommend= ation. >> >> Yes, so a full attack on the IoT device would do what you describe. >> A partial attack might miss messing this. A reboot might clear out = the >> malware, or might mitigate it enough (such as going to boot firmware= ) that >> would permit new firmware to be loaded. >> >> Yes, getting completely out of the quarantine would require either >> attestation or human intervention. But, if the device now has good = firmware, >> it would be able to send the "please unquarantine me" signal. > I believe strongly that the only safe thing you can do with a device > that=E2=80=99s been in any way compromised is completely isolate it.It > shouldn=E2=80=99t be able to send an =E2=80=9Cunquarantine=E2=80=9D s= ignal. You shouldn=E2=80=99t even > try to talk to it. That's a reasonable view. The question is: what next? draft-richardson-shg-un-quarantine-00 tries to discuss this. > Let the firewall which is implementing MUD notify the user about the > problem. Let the device=E2=80=99s app or cloud services notify the us= er that > the device is offline. Possibly in a later evolution of MUD the > firewall might have a way to notify the device=E2=80=99s cloud servic= e, but I > wouldn=E2=80=99t hamstring the initial version of MUD with an attempt= to do > that. I fully expect any notifications out should be done by the firewall. There are two issues I'm trying to address: 1) there will be false positives from use of MUD. Manufacturers will screw up, DNS mappings will be updated out of sync with firmware, etc. If it is too painful to diagnose and fix, then MUD will get disabled by operators (ISPs, who will get the call), or by end users. 2) not every user of a device will get the notifications. So devices with displays (think: thermostats, refridgerators, SIP phon= es, TV sets, etc.) whether they have real malware on them, or false positives should be able to indicate that they are offline. This matters a lot if you are trying to dial 911 on a broken phone, and you aren't the person with the app that gets the notifications from the firewall. Putting them behind the captive-portal API when quarantined lets them get exactly the kind of information they want. It also helps them when they turned on where there really is a captive-portal. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl0lPEwACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVHLggAhv9AXmBAzHWkMJBU6LwQZG+v9a7kdpKRKsEJE/EdEtF5Y+OkspkPl58s coHh4EqVS0s7a0pJrD3lBvFmZvf6MSyd+PWJZl60jVJU6lWnNaYfd7y0hLXM2UIk fQOt/m8GePVmcwZskZJ/Q0IgSZpnnG2MxYAXKFANLRa/dQkr99pX64ctg8ShVWV4 Xc24joEku4lqEIhS2Vy5Tz76evsm1wgb7+7nvoVA2WdJkTI/io5casZwLign8Rdg 8TTArntZqiNKR/wxUUJg6BxtRm5vUN4q7niGF6Cy0WNT19gX78mmEdpZFrhTQbMZ Vciomg3d8LXybuiq0XWXu+zdHctoqA== =Idwo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 01:14:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3839712018C; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:14:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PXFC2RIdlhyZ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5E961200D6; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:14:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5329; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1562746482; x=1563956082; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=WREPVnpTWeH84o47JA6ys0Aw4o7PxmEEMD5gmxxFRC8=; b=T6mM7SJeLrgOBADvwUPi5sRd+nnBlMcXqFSg4rqxZhpE6LatxR9pLe+v S7zKA6sa7YmR2TtJK7HaSjVbnrKu9BaphnDrzj9xmq6bUrwM4M9tyqNTR 2HP3mbLBou+AOJAC9QW2xOecT6H5LHYI6XGEXxv1CgOAGg/nJM7Ig+CtE E=; X-Files: signature.asc : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BWAAD2nSVd/xbLJq1mGgEBAQEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEHAgEBAQGBZ4MBUiASKIQciHuLb5J0hyYDVAIHAQEBCQMBARsUAQGEQAK?= =?us-ascii?q?CbjgTAQMBAQQBAQIBBW2FPAyFSwEEASNWBQsLBD4CAlcGgzUBgXsPrgOBMoV?= =?us-ascii?q?HhGEQgTSBUYg7gWqBfxJ/Jx+CTD6ELoMgMoImBJRmlW4JghuCH4EMgyyNLxu?= =?us-ascii?q?DGYoZik6UcYxzgwoCBAYFAhWBZyGBWDMaCBsVZQGCQQk1hXSCbodnPQMwj1M?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.63,473,1557187200"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="14087066" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 10 Jul 2019 08:14:38 +0000 Received: from [10.61.166.105] ([10.61.166.105]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x6A8EbwB021041 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 10 Jul 2019 08:14:38 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <2708D89A-90CD-41DE-900D-0BFC8AB5B814@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5E4F39DB-41C2-4810-9A71-D01416EBA89C"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:14:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: <46656FBE-06E8-4E65-AF61-4BDE2F206F00@romkey.com> Cc: Michael Richardson , captive-portal@ietf.org, "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" To: John Romkey References: <4486.1562683318@localhost> <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> <27334.1562697538@localhost> <18178.1562719763@localhost> <46656FBE-06E8-4E65-AF61-4BDE2F206F00@romkey.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.166.105, [10.61.166.105] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 08:14:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5E4F39DB-41C2-4810-9A71-D01416EBA89C Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B69F180E-96CB-48D1-85C9-5922A856905C" --Apple-Mail=_B69F180E-96CB-48D1-85C9-5922A856905C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi John, >=20 > I believe strongly that the only safe thing you can do with a device = that=E2=80=99s been in any way compromised is completely isolate it.It = shouldn=E2=80=99t be able to send an =E2=80=9Cunquarantine=E2=80=9D = signal. You shouldn=E2=80=99t even try to talk to it. >=20 It=E2=80=99s important to tease out the device model here a bit. If the = device is a single processor unit, I can only but agree with you. = However, if there is a TPM/TEE present, things get a bit grayer. It is = possible that even a device with a TEE could have been compromised. = This could have happened through a classic bug in some unprotected code, = like a web server. If code within the TEE is able to detect that it has = been messed with, then it is possible it might want to remediate. It is = then up to the process in the TEE to communicate to some sort of remote = attestation service to demonstrate that the system is in a nominal = state, and up to the RATS server to believe that system or not. But I must say that this would not my first use of MUD ;-) Eliot > Let the firewall which is implementing MUD notify the user about the = problem. Let the device=E2=80=99s app or cloud services notify the user = that the device is offline. Possibly in a later evolution of MUD the = firewall might have a way to notify the device=E2=80=99s cloud service, = but I wouldn=E2=80=99t hamstring the initial version of MUD with an = attempt to do that. > - john romkey > https;//romkey.com >=20 --Apple-Mail=_B69F180E-96CB-48D1-85C9-5922A856905C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = John,


I believe strongly that = the only safe thing you can do with a device that=E2=80=99s been in any = way compromised is completely isolate it.It shouldn=E2=80=99t be able to = send an =E2=80=9Cunquarantine=E2=80=9D signal. You shouldn=E2=80=99t = even try to talk to it.


It=E2=80= =99s important to tease out the device model here a bit.  If the = device is a single processor unit, I can only but agree with you. =  However, if there is a TPM/TEE present, things get a bit grayer. =  It is possible that even a device with a TEE could have been = compromised.  This could have happened through a classic bug in = some unprotected code, like a web server.  If code within the TEE = is able to detect that it has been messed with, then it is possible it = might want to remediate.  It is then up to the process in the TEE = to communicate to some sort of remote attestation service to demonstrate = that the system is in a nominal state, and up to the RATS server to = believe that system or not.

But I = must say that this would not my first use of MUD ;-)

Eliot


Let the firewall which is = implementing MUD notify the user about the problem. Let the device=E2=80=99= s app or cloud services notify the user that the device is offline. = Possibly in a later evolution of MUD the firewall might have a way to = notify the device=E2=80=99s cloud service, but I wouldn=E2=80=99t = hamstring the initial version of MUD with an attempt to do = that.
- john romkey
= https;//romkey.com


= --Apple-Mail=_B69F180E-96CB-48D1-85C9-5922A856905C-- --Apple-Mail=_5E4F39DB-41C2-4810-9A71-D01416EBA89C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXSWebQAKCRBugA9nE248 uCMbAKCzaAgF18AM8c6Ko38A2beMWmz/LACghagCTFQI7SIAAolVEMInHAMJ744= =bD/1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_5E4F39DB-41C2-4810-9A71-D01416EBA89C-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 01:18:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A031206AC; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 12:46:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E-mWnIOCuZxw; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 12:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlas5.jacobs-university.de (atlas5.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2293C12068C; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 12:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (demetrius5.irc-it.jacobs-university.de [10.70.0.222]) by atlas5.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCC046FC; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:46:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from atlas5.jacobs-university.de ([10.70.0.198]) by localhost (demetrius5.jacobs-university.de [10.70.0.222]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id M3AXkV3-XxEd; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:46:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "hermes.jacobs-university.de", Issuer "DFN-Verein Global Issuing CA" (verified OK)) by atlas5.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:46:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (demetrius5.irc-it.jacobs-university.de [10.70.0.222]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F4DA20128; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:46:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius5.jacobs-university.de [10.70.0.222]) (amavisd-new, port 10028) with ESMTP id jZloRrSN_9mu; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:46:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from exchange.jacobs-university.de (sxchmb04.jacobs.jacobs-university.de [10.70.0.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "exchange.jacobs-university.de", Issuer "DFN-Verein Global Issuing CA" (verified OK)) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC74E20129; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:46:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from anna.localdomain (10.50.218.117) by sxchmb03.jacobs.jacobs-university.de (10.70.0.155) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.1.1713.5; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:46:14 +0200 Received: by anna.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 501) id A3498300AB1A6A; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:46:14 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:46:14 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Michael Richardson CC: Eliot Lear , "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" , Message-ID: <20190709194614.pbqcbi7dvk75w4ms@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: Michael Richardson , Eliot Lear , "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" , capport@ietf.org References: <4486.1562683318@localhost> <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> <27334.1562697538@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <27334.1562697538@localhost> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 X-ClientProxiedBy: SXCHMB02.jacobs.jacobs-university.de (10.70.0.121) To sxchmb03.jacobs.jacobs-university.de (10.70.0.155) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:18:16 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 19:46:24 -0000 Michael, would an ICMP "administratively prohibited" not be a sufficient signal? Sure, things can be made much more complex, but I doubt that devices will try to actively investigate why they can't communicate (and implement additional protocols for this) if all they can do at the end is to change the color of an led or simply shut-off (i.e., stop assuming its a temporary network issue and reduce/stop probing effort). /js On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 02:38:58PM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > Eliot Lear wrote: > > I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work. Can you show a = flow that will > > work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)? >=20 > Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolat= ed > "VLAN". I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it's a "MAC-addres= s > VLAN", not an 802.1Q thing. It's really just a layer-2 ACL. >=20 > {We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it's packets= , nor > can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can't do a "port-based" VLAN, > because wifi has no ports, and we don't really know how many unmanaged > switches might be on the port anyway. > One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone} >=20 > Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category, > all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-a= ccess/) > would go into a captive portal system. >=20 > Such a system would, according to > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture/ > receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed. > (While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a > URI in it at one point, that is not the current design) >=20 > Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the > appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIGHT? >=20 > Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API > described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/ > to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point= , it > can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if= a > timer goes off. (%) >=20 > This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point,= which > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can del= iver > via DHCPv4/v6 or RA. >=20 >=20 > >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson > >> wrote: > >> > >> Signed PGP part > >> > >> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPOR= T. I > >> have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's= MUD > >> profile. There are a bunch of issues around this. > >> > >> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantin= ed (I > >> really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) t= hat > >> the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device = to > >> learn what went on. > >> > >> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most > >> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection". This has,= I > >> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human. But, if w= e have > >> APIs, we can inform device as well. > >> > >> Is this on anyone's radar? > >> > >> -- > >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software W= orks > >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >=20 >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > OPSAWG mailing list > OPSAWG@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Jul 10 01:18:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D8AC12013B for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:58:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.703 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.703 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=romkey.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WkbZ5VD1ltJH for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42c.google.com (mail-pf1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF77F120048 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id b13so214642pfo.1 for ; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 17:58:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=romkey.com; s=google; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=KYxPYYwfJYEg0J6VJZhNj35oQnEjNX56ul0U8vMIFf8=; b=fbpck0y6mzEkuS+cqKzvWUtWPFnglTHmytptimrjYIHyx192jfxaVsF+8lhocUodoa jmBr+ySNKNc2/82FERq+ZUh+83AibvxdKhS8WRPUbb0qxUG3pKfYd6LL8To+ysqQ4Ce6 mvueY0S3jm4NvjFv7Ihly58vESk4HEsBFQsAOC0d3tCPrOn2F+uFhQ41H+0r7HdQY94i /Ep6jdHLyOZcG9PzkOpqpyuSXO88aX75EL9zWX/OO/DHTGVY2B5jgv1M9YJLA7ejYr2Q vdVcV2PqhE1Mqot5Df8aJhmqSMSU/q0n+cITt7hL65InTraEA7QDA1jEu61xpChOj0Nj p9lQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=KYxPYYwfJYEg0J6VJZhNj35oQnEjNX56ul0U8vMIFf8=; b=bZgakJT+IFt7CDnumtdFwlD2Of4a0v4pbG3r1Vy1404doBIhCSWrV/FCD3/B9e2a7w nV2LeoqCUzAiyg34YeF9O3mEmLx4bLZ91UaFxdPT7ogDKFC8ZeEDFSt6YjjjRiLmCzzN BnekvBNwLlFRIe23N5szKzycIsNe0dAY/J01V8eIvCx5+dhPrpNxgH+p4KJtWk0j2NPW aePxWsWAPeGli/1+mCnJyXX0ShfpXnXWVpD15mNCXee/Dxav3gm6IJu+IHg2HMnYh94F /wtlJummcBaJZIndszPFhxAnFpB0zqpElBK7kO1OmIiTSF3HSy/lOcSr/87QPyHycK4r rq3g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV4+I++x+zbmUDJRaJdXLi8HsiosPv2imU5na+mmKrhHLD3Fglr Ok4L0gKsseqvYcUhix3yzg2avQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzboKQcWA3uXQ9wWP5vDNJTUum17vFMCm8bjI+D9XPyjMMSwlGGvQEZc1A/kkesuVBG2NbGPQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:e20a:: with SMTP id q10mr33131317pgh.24.1562720310181; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 17:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from johns-mbp-3.localdomain ([97.115.131.172]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e5sm279242pfd.56.2019.07.09.17.58.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Jul 2019 17:58:28 -0700 (PDT) From: John Romkey Message-Id: <46656FBE-06E8-4E65-AF61-4BDE2F206F00@romkey.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EABAD983-EB6E-4F93-A1D3-3C6FB9586844" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:58:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: <18178.1562719763@localhost> Cc: Eliot Lear , captive-portal@ietf.org, "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" To: Michael Richardson References: <4486.1562683318@localhost> <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> <27334.1562697538@localhost> <18178.1562719763@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:18:16 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:58:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EABAD983-EB6E-4F93-A1D3-3C6FB9586844 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jul 9, 2019, at 5:49 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 >>> to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which = point, it >>> can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot = if a >>> timer goes off. (%) >=20 >> You are suggesting that a device self-remediate. Some devices may be >> able to eventually do that, but I have my doubts. Were I a hacker, I >> would have the device pretend to do just that. And so this ties >> somewhat to RATS. I think a MUD extension might be able to help in = as >> much as one could imagine a =E2=80=9Cremediation=E2=80=9D = recommendation. >=20 > Yes, so a full attack on the IoT device would do what you describe. > A partial attack might miss messing this. A reboot might clear out = the > malware, or might mitigate it enough (such as going to boot firmware) = that > would permit new firmware to be loaded. >=20 > Yes, getting completely out of the quarantine would require either > attestation or human intervention. But, if the device now has good = firmware, > it would be able to send the "please unquarantine me" signal. I believe strongly that the only safe thing you can do with a device = that=E2=80=99s been in any way compromised is completely isolate it.It = shouldn=E2=80=99t be able to send an =E2=80=9Cunquarantine=E2=80=9D = signal. You shouldn=E2=80=99t even try to talk to it. Let the firewall which is implementing MUD notify the user about the = problem. Let the device=E2=80=99s app or cloud services notify the user = that the device is offline. Possibly in a later evolution of MUD the = firewall might have a way to notify the device=E2=80=99s cloud service, = but I wouldn=E2=80=99t hamstring the initial version of MUD with an = attempt to do that. - john romkey https;//romkey.com --Apple-Mail=_EABAD983-EB6E-4F93-A1D3-3C6FB9586844 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = Jul 9, 2019, at 5:49 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:


Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At = which point, it
can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware = upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a
timer goes off. =  (%)

You are suggesting that = a device self-remediate.  Some devices may be
able to = eventually do that, but I have my doubts.  Were I a hacker, I
would have the device pretend to do just that.  And so = this ties
somewhat to RATS.  I think a MUD extension = might be able to help in as
much as one could imagine a = =E2=80=9Cremediation=E2=80=9D recommendation.

Yes, so a full attack on the IoT = device would do what you describe.
A partial attack might = miss messing this.  A reboot might clear out the
malware, or might mitigate it enough (such as going to boot = firmware) that
would permit new firmware to be loaded.

Yes, getting completely out of the quarantine = would require either
attestation or human intervention. =  But, if the device now has good firmware,
it would = be able to send the "please unquarantine me" signal.

I= believe strongly that the only safe thing you can do with a device = that=E2=80=99s been in any way compromised is completely isolate it.It = shouldn=E2=80=99t be able to send an =E2=80=9Cunquarantine=E2=80=9D = signal. You shouldn=E2=80=99t even try to talk to it.

Let the firewall which = is implementing MUD notify the user about the problem. Let the = device=E2=80=99s app or cloud services notify the user that the device = is offline. Possibly in a later evolution of MUD the firewall might have = a way to notify the device=E2=80=99s cloud service, but I wouldn=E2=80=99t= hamstring the initial version of MUD with an attempt to do = that.
- john romkey
= https;//romkey.com

= --Apple-Mail=_EABAD983-EB6E-4F93-A1D3-3C6FB9586844-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 10:15:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E23B12049E for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:15:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.703 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.703 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qz4NYDXhJ8of for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEECB12047F for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id g20so14133369ioc.12 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:15:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=CorDw7cVS5iGvl714KF/EGzwvnhBDWoy8Te8dbhpq6M=; b=sdIf64TGbczd3RSSIR/9dUgSVN6wvEdxqwfd2PBZQcvwwlvtXUUhIMTr8SMJZ6Haa4 A60BsxtKOgWMs/Svrg6Zap/0jiksU5/0bQ0JRGRtDr2E2uLco/DwoG7PzsxTlZQMl8Nd Noi+nj+cQFK+TXt+vFEnbLBLbZsJ8jkRpeMzLMiALEGB6vYKayHG3SbrBPjPjXls1OYn 60bcSrhjgRfk1ZVWKIZdgllhOz4k64Oj4P/pab2HgTRsTt6XQXk5jekaTMzlPc0wTC/0 nigAuwyAyaUyjcx3nNotkyFqRZ+3NwTsbihnBmDLEmlF/XsFEMAgPykCU9A1JcCTVwI6 /Lig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=CorDw7cVS5iGvl714KF/EGzwvnhBDWoy8Te8dbhpq6M=; b=ZI0v4WJhtRJjvJBmlXmqeHMXm6V+ZZlDBTLV0ih7R+XLod44LiHxzoCdXW0M5IOTZe 01OwhEswCg0lk39qrHhGST/zRfNrwLE1FR6kQU7XdUK22dnw7L80gQ5srMdSEC6NQcKm +bivBxtisCMMyV+4mv2qkoBrGxhdos3Lm7H8t0jR9b0KPuKoSzF3LkS3rAbUYtr904TU X4oE9TmRvDGYVkY+8xwurKFNbYeDcX9HgBlyelJsCito1ECnlhH9o7j82iRYTIupmm1Y DXKRAhjKBr98doB9YkmWSqQ1uQGMahDPUmlPUeMhsNVtEbvqCGUaZK2+WWCXwYRv8NQX ohsw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW4G6OjzT8lwyG1PpIFOCpoIQfFH5GeTv7of23rFzcjJsszc23O PX3IlLtDEvQYAkKuqUz4bMkejXJotjbWirH25zAJYrxa X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzfnvBkgggcXFOfqvfIy4PQx0lGzrxW6mtx80F7VIih3NTYxqQZFgW0xS7spJqJSGujkmVffhPCbjAQ362nJpI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:2248:: with SMTP id o8mr5428237ioo.90.1562865316554; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:15:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "M. Ranganathan" Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:14:40 -0400 Message-ID: To: mud@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000066cb5058d6af0bd" Archived-At: Subject: [Mud] mudmaker ICMP support? X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 17:15:23 -0000 --000000000000066cb5058d6af0bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Mudmaker leaves out ICMP as a protocol choice. Was this intentional or simply a matter of not having enough time to add it? Thanks, Ranga -- M. Ranganathan --000000000000066cb5058d6af0bd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mudmaker=C2=A0 leaves out ICMP as a protocol choice.= =C2=A0 Was this intentional or simply a matter of not having enough time to= add it?

Thanks,

Ranga

--
=
M. R= anganathan

--000000000000066cb5058d6af0bd-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 11:22:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAD0C1202A6 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:22:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.703 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.703 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vpjqqCD4liby for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A21B120228 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id j6so14657412ioa.5 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:22:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=m4yyYSq67s9nzy9o1OxX0LKjzduKmjEyo4gHulIYxEI=; b=PAeV1ya6v/sonc35FtXkGO5Cge7uq4TeCFlfzDJetoYC8pUO7oO+8NGsBsuQm81tZJ idaH6mETdrHJzdfdSJ5PxhJU0jKC0k5iZKcI6EYpJDR29cb1ejwbHFC42AIbCDT0jK5x aFa8zGsqhoIzOBKdRUua+4KYet7C7HcXVtceiqCLWuMH8TUrdFgEkKl2eJg48hw1cgpB d4rvDildkhMfJClLrBJoIU+ABUawvHYoXotyIyjgnF3ekM0pLM+ayUKaWuJACOSvuG9I s74FKTk9nHR6Ugf0rjwXESRJ1bX2WxRr0pJntiLTPwH6FGsUQF6bynOS0KZdVhIR0i6a Bh+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=m4yyYSq67s9nzy9o1OxX0LKjzduKmjEyo4gHulIYxEI=; b=AevlajcqcKhd3i+T511iEyCiFbTGzLmxEqTnDL4cpuzM19twtLd5ddnZu0Lz/uYof8 iCHdV6VO7K+Ohs2gbTg181YQr9JrF/wEW0pQUxjeULHWjBuPaVGePlJVrUDvoIPUzFi7 b8VXr1ASSYWm6f/UetaZoA2e9jCXaXhHRKc5n3R6gcYsnZCj8vR4an4f2FDDuY9LZHQ8 DfjZguoWmOGKXIbflxKJTJJKPHePoXC2B5Pr62f5+0I0LoI64gZjGtl2tjZPRDNFF8ub /UcQKAWCdbCujQ2PpRMiUWxlcEdep05U2FnL9ku+xn8SQrXIuaoO0MyZbfeSOv+vNycp AeXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV+PHe005rJ+MnmZQXfwNy9VdlmnzLdcb+0O6tTzQkBvxupjr6u voNU9MUpFTDU2s/4C/IcoXvvEwH+E6JSNVw29cu9Kevq X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx1+tpcrziiGQK2IXKgiDS3HVM5e/nwLu/cV7BrSfIqYT265em3Dgn1aOqMU54TtT9c/Syg/VsemXsKTNXR86o= X-Received: by 2002:a5e:d615:: with SMTP id w21mr6117962iom.0.1562869344164; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:22:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "M. Ranganathan" Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:21:47 -0400 Message-ID: To: mud@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000016e7be058d6be0a9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] mudmaker ICMP support? X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 18:22:27 -0000 --00000000000016e7be058d6be0a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Reason I am asking the question is to know if one would expect to see ICMP ACE's in a MUD profile (i.e. would you expect a manufacturer to specify ICMP ACE's in a MUD profile?) Thanks, On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 1:14 PM M. Ranganathan wrote: > Mudmaker leaves out ICMP as a protocol choice. Was this intentional or > simply a matter of not having enough time to add it? > > Thanks, > > Ranga > > -- > M. Ranganathan > > -- M. Ranganathan --00000000000016e7be058d6be0a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Reason I am asking the question is to know if one wou= ld expect to see ICMP ACE's in a MUD profile (i.e.=C2=A0 would you expe= ct a manufacturer to specify ICMP ACE's in a MUD profile?)
Thanks,

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 1:14 PM M. Ranganatha= n <mranga@gmail.com> wrote:
=
Mudmaker=C2=A0 leaves out ICMP as a protocol choice.=C2=A0 Was this in= tentional or simply a matter of not having enough time to add it?

Thanks,

Ranga
<= div>
--
M. Ranganathan

=


--
M. Ranganathan

<= /div>
--00000000000016e7be058d6be0a9-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 12:43:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56111120155 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:43:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nuijzXMYKK6Y for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E89A912013B for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:43:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1145; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1562874219; x=1564083819; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=1PGW1l9MMZlPeI+3MBc+qVqH4oPC3MRkEM+hl/odMZI=; b=h5zP5VTEvE7HBZ7QvsvqWzcJleaX2wUazicjpfNTsHPTsWssONsDtcKp 5OVItqZMNtFJ0N6tpuo3+jJgkYmbzgF7uMWcH+XxUKJAxswR8c4Ac7S6n E5+Tj6ms0WEVRuob0oZYfV8KsAD7s1V5Vm3mSjb/r14vnfXLPuCGgLm4j s=; X-Files: signature.asc : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AFAADfkCdd/xbLJq1lGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAQGBVAMBAQEBAQsBgwBRASASKIQciHuLTiWJUI8ogXsCBwE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQkDAQEYCwwBAYRAAoJ2NQgOAQMBAQQBAQIBBW2FPAyFSgEBAQECAQEBIUs?= =?us-ascii?q?LBQsLGCoCAiEGMAYTgyIBgWoDDg8PrCyBMoVHgkANghYKBoE0AYFQiiWBf4E?= =?us-ascii?q?4DBOCTD6CGkcBAYRrMoImBJRslS9ACYIbgh+BDIxpg3QbghwBixiKTpZsiwa?= =?us-ascii?q?DCwIEBgUCFYFSATWBWDMaCBsVOyoBgkE+iwiFQT0DMJAGAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.63,479,1557187200"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="14201651" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 11 Jul 2019 19:43:36 +0000 Received: from [10.61.233.35] ([10.61.233.35]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x6BJhZfn030914 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 11 Jul 2019 19:43:36 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <87E54DD5-1184-4529-866E-2B0CDF5B33CD@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F20FBD18-1D46-419D-8E18-4C1A01E218C6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 21:43:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: mud@ietf.org To: "M. Ranganathan" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.233.35, [10.61.233.35] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] mudmaker ICMP support? X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 19:43:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F20FBD18-1D46-419D-8E18-4C1A01E218C6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 11 Jul 2019, at 19:14, M. Ranganathan wrote: >=20 > Mudmaker leaves out ICMP as a protocol choice. Was this intentional = or simply a matter of not having enough time to add it? It=E2=80=99s allowed. See Page 13, middle of the page, what ACL model = features are recommended. Eliot >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Ranga >=20 > -- > M. Ranganathan >=20 > -- > Mud mailing list > Mud@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud --Apple-Mail=_F20FBD18-1D46-419D-8E18-4C1A01E218C6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXSeRZwAKCRBugA9nE248 uCwwAKCqc+7EINBF9AsKNi9Z0704uRsDYACfbYk5FnpGARQ2R4f2NGVEPNw7KH8= =1sRm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F20FBD18-1D46-419D-8E18-4C1A01E218C6-- From nobody Sun Jul 14 05:41:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE0212008A for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2019 05:41:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RX_HC7whcMvQ for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2019 05:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA31E120133 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2019 05:41:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=900; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1563108080; x=1564317680; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=2YsYyo/VDxR0GHrMawVJ4LZpQbM57IW/DOpHSuigvK0=; b=dENpuQ7MFEJV5/IzexQ6pWfqGFlX9dBdG54hYr2U0smjhnCrHZHK3BOG VmNZsTIQJGbb1vcoFvdNYVx824sAHcPBIEXr9X+KhHm0G7z4SlHm2bliJ gISdSXCpYSvD0CwpS2IbQbHff/FTg34PRJ56bW+OyWOqqwLTMxoNxBHUh Y=; X-Files: signature.asc : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BUAACnIitd/xbLJq1mHAEBAQQBAQc?= =?us-ascii?q?EAQGBVQUBAQsBgwBRASAShESIe4tTj2SJPoF7AgcBAQEJAwEBHxABAYc7Ngc?= =?us-ascii?q?OAQMBAQQBAQIBBW2FPAyFdIEzAoQUAYIKmxuOfIEyii0KBoE0AYFQiiWBf4E?= =?us-ascii?q?4DBOFawKCLoI9MoImBJRxlXIJghuCH4EMgy2NNBuCHQGLGYpTlCJbhgeGdoM?= =?us-ascii?q?LAgQGBQIVgVcHKoFYMxoIGxVlAYJCPYV0hRSFQT0DkRkBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.63,490,1557187200"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="14287328" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 14 Jul 2019 12:41:18 +0000 Received: from [10.61.168.132] ([10.61.168.132]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x6ECfHYP007432 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2019 12:41:18 GMT From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_219BE25F-D1CC-4346-8DAA-B165A7F32036"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 14:41:17 +0200 To: mud@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.168.132, [10.61.168.132] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Mud] An improved mud maker? X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 12:41:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_219BE25F-D1CC-4346-8DAA-B165A7F32036 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I have a beta version of a new MUD maker for those who would like to = take a look. It=E2=80=99s at https://mudmaker.org/beta. If you would = like to make changes, feel free to submit PRs to = https://github.com/elear/mud. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_219BE25F-D1CC-4346-8DAA-B165A7F32036 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXSsi7QAKCRBugA9nE248 uCFvAKDxCp4PSuuHUMJeMqyVVxyaMH+cNgCgvNJ/pESyDzeg23KyvWq8lN8+uUo= =n3he -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_219BE25F-D1CC-4346-8DAA-B165A7F32036-- From nobody Wed Jul 17 14:26:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32CA7120116 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:26:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 94jlCG1Qgncz for ; 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Tue, 16 Jul 2019 18:24:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 18:24:16 -0400 To: Dumpsterfire mailing list Message-ID: <20190716222416.GA2350@miniequipaje> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Subject: [Dumpsterfire] Vulnerabilities found in GE anesthesia machines X-BeenThere: dumpsterfire@firemountain.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Dumpsterfire - the mailing list for IoT security and privacy failures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , From: =?utf-8?q?Jos=C3=A9_Mar=C3=ADa_Mateos_via_Dumpsterfire?= Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Mar=EDa?= Mateos Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Errors-To: dumpsterfire-bounces@firemountain.net Sender: "Dumpsterfire" Received-SPF: pass (mx41.antispamcloud.com: domain of firemountain.net designates 207.114.3.55 as permitted sender) client-ip=207.114.3.55; envelope-from=dumpsterfire-bounces@firemountain.net; 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Security researchers have discovered vulnerabilities in two models of hospital anesthesia machines manufactured by General Electric (GE). The two devices found to be vulnerable are GE Aestiva and GE Aespire -- models 7100 and 7900. According to researchers from CyberMDX, a healthcare cybersecurity firm, the vulnerabilities reside in the two devices' firmware. CyberMDX said attackers on the same network as the devices -- a hospital's network -- can send remote commands that can alter devices' settings. The researcher claims the commands can be used to make unauthorized adjustments to the anesthetic machines' gas composition, such as modifying the concentration of oxygen, CO2, N2O, and other anesthetic agents, or the gas' barometric pressure. Cheers, -- = Jos=E9 Mar=EDa (Chema) Mateos || https://rinzewind.org ********************************************************************** The Dumpsterfire mailing list is hosted by firemountain.net. To unsubscribe or change delivery options: http://www.firemountain.net/mailman/listinfo/dumpsterfire --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jul 19 02:49:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD083120179 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:49:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hOB5ci4aI8WP for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD8931200B1 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:49:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=805; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1563529774; x=1564739374; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=2Uc8RUyqcQJr1Wxdh2wRJVZVm5AQp4szi1FWa4suLoM=; b=e1M+2aNNwfvNhzUC3kVeldyYIo7f0D6ODxrSVuUuZy+lokd/T1O/os5c +3/RfxJG3+xt/SSvRdD+qlohOsB1B4Rm9WvQOO9PyeoDzHW62cbMLtNNf GIPyFOEthQ/NLh/Z7jp6HY1FycuVQmy/A1vK0SpTh13ztf3AwH5vYO32/ 8=; X-Files: signature.asc : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0A6AAAckTFd/xbLJq1mHAEBAQQBAQc?= =?us-ascii?q?EAQGBVAYBAQsBgwNRASAShEeIe5pliT6BewIHAQEBCQMBASUKAQGHMTUIDgE?= =?us-ascii?q?DAQEEAQECAQVthTwMhXSBMwJggzQBggoPqz2BMoQ2A4VsCgaBNAGBUIolgX+?= =?us-ascii?q?BEScfilkygiYElHGVcgmCG4IfgQyDLY00G4IdAYsZilONNYdIjH2DCwIEBgU?= =?us-ascii?q?CFYFRATaBWDMaCBsVZQGCQj2KTYV8PQOQFAEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.64,281,1559520000"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="14475989" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 19 Jul 2019 09:49:32 +0000 Received: from [10.61.235.245] ([10.61.235.245]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x6J9nVQM000331 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:49:31 GMT From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AF5B1F5F-50BE-4033-BDEF-2EA052B12004"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: <891E5B96-F170-4C38-B0C5-4CFD99644A23@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:49:30 +0200 To: mud@ietf.org, collaborators-mitigating-iot-ddos-nccoe@list.nist.gov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.235.245, [10.61.235.245] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Mud] As we start hacking tomorrow... X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:49:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AF5B1F5F-50BE-4033-BDEF-2EA052B12004 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 =E2=80=A6 we can think about continuing our hacking at RIPE. = https://labs.ripe.net/Members/becha/iot-hackathon-at-ripe-79-in-rotterdam --Apple-Mail=_AF5B1F5F-50BE-4033-BDEF-2EA052B12004 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXTGSKgAKCRBugA9nE248 uChZAJ9K0v0jpD8MQDtIy8luhGTyInE4SwCgoitA+7JSLICFiqTNzJihuKWFLpk= =7RcO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_AF5B1F5F-50BE-4033-BDEF-2EA052B12004-- From nobody Sun Jul 21 07:48:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CC9F120020 for ; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 07:48:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BOCEQ_ndBbsf for ; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 07:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.cira.ca (mx2.cira.ca [192.228.22.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E8A7120019 for ; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 07:48:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by SpamTitan at cira.ca Authentication-Results: mx2.cira.ca; none Received: from CRP-EX16-01.CORP.CIRA.CA (10.2.36.120) by CRP-EX16-02.CORP.CIRA.CA (10.2.36.121) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1531.3; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 10:48:16 -0400 Received: from CRP-EX16-01.CORP.CIRA.CA ([fe80::55ed:64a1:685a:4753]) by CRP-EX16-01.CORP.CIRA.CA ([fe80::55ed:64a1:685a:4753%13]) with mapi id 15.01.1531.010; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 10:48:16 -0400 From: Lucas Estienne To: "mud@ietf.org" CC: Daniel Innes Thread-Topic: Python package for MUD file generation Thread-Index: AdU/0ivIz0bk2Y9URkqsZANoz/EjIA== Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 14:48:16 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.2.36.1] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_c4d115b09bfc41aa867224e650e58339ciraca_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Mud] Python package for MUD file generation X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 14:48:22 -0000 --_000_c4d115b09bfc41aa867224e650e58339ciraca_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Here's the library we worked on during the hackathon to generate mud files: https://github.com/lstn/muddy https://pypi.org/project/muddy/ pip3 install muddy It comes with a cli (muddy make ...) however the actual logic to make it w= ork isn't implemented yet... if someone wants to make a PR for that :) Lucas --_000_c4d115b09bfc41aa867224e650e58339ciraca_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

Here’s the library we worked on during the hac= kathon to generate mud files:

https://gi= thub.com/lstn/muddy

https://= pypi.org/project/muddy/

pip3 install muddy

 

It comes with a cli (muddy make  …) howev= er the actual logic to make it work isn’t implemented yet… if s= omeone wants to make a PR for that J

 

Lucas

 

 

 

 

--_000_c4d115b09bfc41aa867224e650e58339ciraca_-- From nobody Sun Jul 21 11:12:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03323120133; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 11:12:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4JFkSnf34NQP; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 11:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE8B912012E; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 11:12:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1938; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1563732761; x=1564942361; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=HwCB7g4pMt7WT8t6xSK5i07xE3za6/kYl6Wx6q4PIHQ=; b=l4RjzimfnOLipVkqsWUwytwj+Gl8zRNgE+YOaIOqTD0B4F6gDs7afYVs 4n5wIts7HKkyCc893fpD4FwWrQ21CSF08F4mU5/pGBN61B2oMjmSV0ehU +RQmbz8OO62vvmPS7o3hCVI/QnXGyY+djPkQPl2VLiJQNshv3VfB0jZMa o=; X-Files: signature.asc : 195 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AbAAB/qjRd/4oNJK1mGwEBAQEDAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BBwMBAQGBVAUBAQELAYFnL4E/MpZbgWqTIIYDgXsCBwEBAQkDAQEvAQGHFCM?= =?us-ascii?q?1CA4BAwEBBAEBAgEGbYUqhUGBJwGBIIM0AYIKqm2KJhCBNAGBUIoOF4F/gTg?= =?us-ascii?q?ME4JMPoEEAYZ8giYElHGVcgmCGwOCHIEMkGEbjTeKU401lEWDCwIEBgUCFYF?= =?us-ascii?q?SAzOBWDMaCBsVZQGCQj2CHI5IIwOQBQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.64,292,1559520000"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="601152886" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 21 Jul 2019 18:12:40 +0000 Received: from [10.86.245.105] ([10.86.245.105]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x6LICd5A032108 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 21 Jul 2019 18:12:40 GMT From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B2DD0258-28ED-4483-93BC-9ECE1CCF2A2D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: <393A54CA-DE46-450C-9398-DCD78EF52E30@cisco.com> Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 14:12:38 -0400 To: iot-onboarding@ietf.org, mud@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.86.245.105, [10.86.245.105] X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-5.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Mud] Reminder tomorrow: IoT Onboarding / MUD meeting X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 18:12:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B2DD0258-28ED-4483-93BC-9ECE1CCF2A2D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_51BC2C38-64DC-4EE8-B6D0-444A9DC1275A" --Apple-Mail=_51BC2C38-64DC-4EE8-B6D0-444A9DC1275A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 9:00am Room C2 on the 21st Floor Agenda: Results of the Hackathon New drafts this time around and changes to old ones Skills for MUD files non-ANIMA ACP different forms of integration Trust model for MUD signatures Other stuff Eliot --Apple-Mail=_51BC2C38-64DC-4EE8-B6D0-444A9DC1275A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii 9:00am Room C2 on the 21st Floor

Agenda:
  • Results of the Hackathon
  • New drafts this time around and changes to old ones
  • Skills for MUD files
  • non-ANIMA ACP different forms of integration
  • Trust model for MUD signatures
  • Other stuff

Eliot
--Apple-Mail=_51BC2C38-64DC-4EE8-B6D0-444A9DC1275A-- --Apple-Mail=_B2DD0258-28ED-4483-93BC-9ECE1CCF2A2D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXTSrFgAKCRBugA9nE248 uOZ1AJ9jNSH/JLydvFFxGZ5SbDcx+1mdjACg5vduHimXMPMNHoDMz/R3oJAELQs= =Ix4n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B2DD0258-28ED-4483-93BC-9ECE1CCF2A2D-- From nobody Sun Jul 21 11:38:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CFB81200C4 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 20:34:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.25 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.25 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=loon.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BTI2BSmRG7_1 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 20:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79EF31200D8 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 20:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id g20so66597803ioc.12 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 20:33:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=loon.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=YVKouiH4IryHPCGvbLhozYilZxCVzqr30tRpJy48F68=; b=L8AIKYprWBT8GAbw3dYd1ZW+9D1joHdcb/QJZ1npWYpfocdXAh/YRqUbTyuL8CTnDb 8kL0rjDfQJkCtlkOTtpQxwWfffrXyXDB2Wt6vXzv5QPEyBuCYWtkg7e6z0ohOKhZR5rZ pb68PSSJED1ELBbCd5kGTqTO2E9KUb0NKafEk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YVKouiH4IryHPCGvbLhozYilZxCVzqr30tRpJy48F68=; b=IuFNVgKuv7KJWzR/zUXb6Yjt9DnFBAIm3qVtA8xy2iag4yhP3gbpvstMV5slChtjeA sUWmDUX5/dsAny8sXhowGah420X9KJytmF+TYO2KHUMpJCqLpLIU0yxATHFoDn8MpT4h FrVdCvY+nBYcBfpsNUjQz2BwvO+z8dmhp5Knhr0D+gVabthrh3BfVcmsnVDJzGTy6CRb k1glBNloXDW3HSqK6tlU9xGakzFdzr6f0eyTsdYAuH4ocWwHyx0EjhZxCNtTNg2C0hQH 3a/SE8rwHS1wfDUol3VQx5vstizMqZfkoj7sS0JmsSnklSgMNqrfgNowkJvppU7ZFQgx CtGg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWy50pko40hs/rSgITS424vXpkybQoKulFP+4e0LvHsOkpqs8Fk P4SIaeJl5YjVop7V3DLibPd/MIbgcYZ3tJbytw+Upg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx7WQH3n8air9grurutLZyjmulQroGtyb6Psp83zhcRMIZWN5sUKM+v+JwcFeKOe3+0aXmF2RMg4/G18cgQhzk= X-Received: by 2002:a02:1a86:: with SMTP id 128mr15179903jai.95.1563680036325; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 20:33:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <27897.1562697682@localhost> In-Reply-To: <27897.1562697682@localhost> Reply-To: ek@loon.com From: Erik Kline Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 23:33:44 -0400 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: captive-portals , opsawg@ietf.org, mud@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001be4ce058e28a124" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 11:38:42 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mud] [Captive-portals] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal (fwd) Michael Richardson: putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 03:34:01 -0000 --0000000000001be4ce058e28a124 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Most discussion has, co-chair hat off, be circling around some minimal working API mechanism to get things started. That said, one could easily imagine, for example, something as simple as an additional API boolean key, "quarantined": true|false, Perhaps once there's some experience with 7710bis+API implementation... On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 14:41, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Again, a WG whose ML is not the WG name, and there is no alias. ARGH. > Here are some emails that didn't get to captive-portals@ietf.org. > Sorry for the duplication for others. > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Michael Richardson > To: "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" , > capport@ietf.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 10:41:58 -0400 > Subject: putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal > > Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT. > I have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's MUD > profile. There are a bunch of issues around this. > > Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined > (I really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) > that the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to > learn what went on. > > This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most enterpris= e > NEA systems upon encountering "infection". This has, I assume, involved > forced HTTP proxies to inform human. But, if we have APIs, we can inform > device as well. > > Is this on anyone's radar? > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Michael Richardson > To: Eliot Lear > Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" , "mud@ietf.org" , > capport@ietf.org > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:38:58 -0400 > Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive > portal > > Eliot Lear wrote: > > I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work. Can you show a fl= ow that > will > > work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)? > > Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolated > "VLAN". I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it's a "MAC-address > VLAN", not an 802.1Q thing. It's really just a layer-2 ACL. > > {We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it's packets, > nor > can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can't do a "port-based" VLAN, > because wifi has no ports, and we don't really know how many unmanaged > switches might be on the port anyway. > One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone} > > Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category, > all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-acc= ess/ > ) > would go into a captive portal system. > > Such a system would, according to > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture/ > receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed. > (While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a > URI in it at one point, that is not the current design) > > Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the > appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIGHT? > > Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API > described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/ > to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point, = it > can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a > timer goes off. (%) > > This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point, > which > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can > deliver > via DHCPv4/v6 or RA. > > > >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson > >> wrote: > >> > >> Signed PGP part > >> > >> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT. > I > >> have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's M= UD > >> profile. There are a bunch of issues around this. > >> > >> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined > (I > >> really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) tha= t > >> the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to > >> learn what went on. > >> > >> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most > >> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection". This has, I > >> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human. But, if we > have > >> APIs, we can inform device as well. > >> > >> Is this on anyone's radar? > >> > >> -- > >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software > Works > >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > _______________________________________________ > Captive-portals mailing list > Captive-portals@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/captive-portals > --0000000000001be4ce058e28a124 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Most discussion has, co-chair hat off, be circling around = some minimal working API mechanism to get things started.

That said, one could easily imagine, for example, something as simple as= =C2=A0an additional API boolean key,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0= "quarantined": true|false,

Perhaps once= there's some experience with 7710bis+API implementation...
=
On Tue= , 9 Jul 2019 at 14:41, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

Again, a WG whose ML is not the WG name, and there is no alias. ARGH.
Here are some emails that didn't get to captive-portals@ietf.org.
Sorry for the duplication for others.




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Michael R= ichardson <= mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To:=C2=A0"opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>, capport@ietf.org
Cc:=C2= =A0
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Tue, 09 Jul 2019 10:41:58 -0400
Subject:= =C2=A0putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal

Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT.
I have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's MUD<= br> profile.=C2=A0 There are a bunch of issues around this.

Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined
(I really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a w= ord)
that the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to
learn what went on.

This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most enterprise<= br> NEA systems upon encountering "infection".=C2=A0 This has, I assu= me, involved
forced HTTP proxies to inform human.=C2=A0 But, if we have APIs, we can inf= orm
device as well.

Is this on anyone's radar?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-






---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Michael R= ichardson <= mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To:=C2=A0Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
Cc:=C2=A0"= opsawg@ietf.org&qu= ot; <opsawg@ietf.or= g>, "mud@ietf= .org" <mud@ie= tf.org>, cappo= rt@ietf.org
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:38:58 -0400=
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a cap= tive portal

Eliot Lear <lear@cis= co.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work.=C2=A0 C= an you show a flow that will
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)?<= br>
Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolated "VLAN".=C2=A0 I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it'= s a "MAC-address
VLAN", not an 802.1Q thing.=C2=A0 It's really just a layer-2 ACL.<= br>
{We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it's packets= , nor
can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can't do a "port-based&q= uot; VLAN,
because wifi has no ports, and we don't really know how many unmanaged<= br> switches might be on the port anyway.
One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone}

Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category,
all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement
https://datatracker.iet= f.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-access/)
would go into a captive portal system.

Such a system would, according to
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr= aft-ietf-capport-architecture/
receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed.
(While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a
URI in it at one point, that is not the current design)

Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the
appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIG= HT?

Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API
described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-ietf-capport-api/
to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point, it=
can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a timer goes off.=C2=A0 (%)

This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point, whi= ch
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can deliver
via DHCPv4/v6 or RA.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman= .ca>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Signed PGP part
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking = about CAPPORT.=C2=A0 I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> have been working on what to do when an IoT device v= iolates it's MUD
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> profile.=C2=A0 There are a bunch of issues around th= is.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device = is quarantined (I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> really think it should be "quaranteed", bu= t that's not a word) that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> the capport controls and APIs should be available to= the device to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> learn what went on.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> This is not new, I think that this as been the appro= ach of most
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infec= tion".=C2=A0 This has, I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human= .=C2=A0 But, if we have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> APIs, we can inform device as well.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Is this on anyone's radar?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> --
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman So= ftware Works
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



_______________________________________________
Captive-portals mailing list
Captive-porta= ls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/captive-p= ortals
--0000000000001be4ce058e28a124-- From nobody Mon Jul 22 06:45:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EBC51202C4; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:45:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nP5aQcBry8vh; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47B521202E2; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:6e88:14ff:fe34:93bc]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F23441F44B; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 13:45:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 2A16613CB; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 09:45:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: iot-onboarding@ietf.org cc: mud@ietf.org, Carsten Bormann X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 09:45:55 -0400 Message-ID: <9805.1563803155@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: [Mud] updates to diagram X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 13:45:44 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have updated the dia/svg version of the diagram that Eliot put on the screen, but some were too far away to see. There is also an asciio version, but I think that I will maintain the pretty version only. The key changes is that I inserted RFC8572 and RFC8366 labels. I will think about how to insert BRSKI-TEEP. It is at: https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap/blob/master/technology-compo= nents.svg https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap/blob/master/building-block-d= iagram.txt =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl01vhIACgkQlUzhVv38 QpA6OwgAjgXN+2p7qyesf78iMxJsCcUsVOeyTIc7MTsyoId2qSCukSAovvPZMFZm aPEZWk1YqmM7E1EEKAygOHSWKrl71q4STCkQzMwilJ56PtVB+8R8kNs+GnH6E2oI Q9o9DVaOMkjRqnA9SGBifwmvII3Lex2Gs4B/YtlUuYgylCDjauiVe98nXyKocLEs qZ8qYVfm8w7/bpysHV7TnyPRWIYcNB7w/qgc5yEFydpuf2aSeApXtWFDusHbSg+g H8m9TytpJQCgSqRjY5t5Tw1nbcZIyJjJQihprCEuDsgY7Yoz79K15m9eBPmty+Ok 8cdyPJJ/RcVgd+q4UZw6NMF0F+/U6g== =YHU2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 16:07:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F8A1200B8 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:07:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sKYU1YCTjGdH for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E8FD120154 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (dhcp-8960.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.137.96]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31BF11F44B; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 23:07:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id B7E401BBF; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:07:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: tirumal reddy cc: "M. Ranganathan" , mud@ietf.org In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to tirumal reddy message dated "Tue, 21 May 2019 12:33:12 +0530." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:07:34 -0400 Message-ID: <2235.1563923254@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] Simplified Quarantine model X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 23:07:16 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable tirumal reddy wrote: > How do you identify an attacker is using the victim device's MAC and = IP > address to send attack traffic (e.g. SYN flood) ? On wired, this has to be protected by using a managed switch and then locking ports down to mac addresses. On wireless, one needs unique PSKs (or Enterprise WPA), which then one can identify which device is which, and lock the MAC address down. Of course, all this fails if the devices are expected to randomize the L2 address. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl03kzYACgkQlUzhVv38 QpDggAf/VjLVc8Kp92xIvegZv9Q+iuB+4uZYb3o2zBMD8aPmdnEbwrfcdShejXq/ bjK8wX+RlQhZqSo5gfvybC09q1FucXOmNcXqz3qpywxy+Nhtq+LiDbF/+wShtICM 6KxbmYsJA4F0Pn3dU4QegWQceSteusiTj3M4ZOpNu5n6M3CpEY9PrHe1Z4aM/fsb LUDzSS9ya2PT+ksaAJhc/JXn056zRWWh50ik7LOAKth+cOLaiExUuj9pSbo1qHVt sSTrSlBe52maYmR1XxaFsrcdqdwjKsCKF6C8BPWliFUECzmYkIudmcqW3aEqyefE GLIOTVzvrDB7oWpCATvZgSyb3KyxCA== =fGC+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 17:03:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87B45120995; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:03:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a6iGpyu56X5u; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FA6F120991; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:6e88:14ff:fe34:93bc]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 558411F47F; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 00:03:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id B2D951BBF; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 20:03:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: ek@loon.com cc: captive-portals , opsawg@ietf.org, mud@ietf.org In-reply-to: References: <27897.1562697682@localhost> Comments: In-reply-to Erik Kline message dated "Sat, 20 Jul 2019 23:33:44 -0400." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 20:03:49 -0400 Message-ID: <7357.1563926629@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [Captive-portals] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal (fwd) Michael Richardson: putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 00:03:33 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Erik Kline wrote: > Most discussion has, co-chair hat off, be circling around some minimal > working API mechanism to get things started. > That said, one could easily imagine, for example, something as simple > as an additional API boolean key, > "quarantined": true|false, I think that I want to implement exactly this then. This means providing the API info in the DHCPv4 to all devices, but for many devices, even though there is no restriction at all.=20 A concern that was recently raised is attackers that might attempt to impersonate other devices (same L2/L3 address), and do things to trigger quarantine. Once you train the users to unquarantine without thinking... =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl03oGUACgkQlUzhVv38 QpDTUwgAiNwG4V2jzQpgAYxvl8vV0WilqX5eUUCIMQW2VqEqSq27gdlDMp8Dak0U cgAaIQ91v70VeiPo3qIbArDbymdp6jXKQxvXbuy6D7md98O+Dj9k6CAoPhwQmh2u ZdjlOSBidt/0Pu0RPHYskN2b65uB2kkLqRjPcMYp5+GOueFe1QhlJM62Lb72qdXT hOnWgX07mpyLWFG0yCedXRlgSlIuHqIe4sP68+YiMo/gMzaqhr4HagvdkclisZMv FGjQn1XCRKg+8O7Pr1Tq1OcFJjRqm2YSJrMhBOp7WTTv/I7DaJdcRQKuO+6eNnWJ vResXFkagg38tUbmpvdzrQTS5qjSJw== =4iTu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 22:56:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5BB512003F for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 22:56:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uWgehkcLhz_3 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 22:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEF7E120332 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 22:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id k20so87002180ios.10 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 22:56:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iHji0cKMvAYqk3jI31pfY5G7yTUUegpeNqTl65PvQMI=; b=jtmd/y9ccSJ8F0OzAp4Ph0A9/3857uPgdxYeXusj210U3ihgpBTSV/+5uWNrfA7u7B +HrzPuwki5cYmPkgeL9nWFiXlefAIspqIfIZoU3rzl0IpcDl3iQaWQaonwKPFy9/bmNM 9SxxLoxyvr+wmj5yeJzdRxJXCCmZ0Rjtyxr+z6C4O2wvp0+t1fv6hQ6bynD6zbifEa36 aK7D/F/hvtmhuFY8zB8RZRIAn9VbUNhbInflCTQJSwu+Rk0ZE3hnoYQR5/rqMfW+Yfid mFVZboTDus1EdDwxITBO2GdWc7QGZl5wH1CQqWVCYY65KlpIqZZYXqEGsZGaywYpoSSl xqpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iHji0cKMvAYqk3jI31pfY5G7yTUUegpeNqTl65PvQMI=; b=badxYIyZvMxfWes9p1M81u3ps2t24rLLL3tIg/oQwO5b7jHaeroLpu55Bn2fXmQV04 cm3LUWuR7ICPVJ00ykBVozBTWCzLnMqTfZnNCTEMcTeEM6VgfE/bLJY8G7Fm0o+A9mRY QMVl6inaLhWNpLsAigVa2WaPC7V1PeEnuVVqvV+XnMHqzoRidP/FSO80zgpsHe1684S0 zcch8ILPHwwU7uybnPgxtiD1VRtySZAWZ7rutMXwGIIrlow08iatheqLnMSL6wNoVSLd Uv7tntvRJHc+XVSTT+4/Q+ZJK0/2bz5svLyS705C9si4cTU7mmOWb9YX9nDPMszUjlYy VnXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVpcswTkliHe4zEFEJxgHz/Ek+8YOZgTtpJTiSUWKjOA6h0EXW8 I/gaxk2xFir10ZPa3NYxTMwZHfk/d+nbA8BY2eA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw1SqaxedZBTS6Jnq0G6RY+UM1/h6qUEz8nma/6wa0DH4HGor6FZwoafnveMdAMY0RtW67o5gdDCeiYlqjiduw= X-Received: by 2002:a02:bb08:: with SMTP id y8mr38718044jan.51.1563947762091; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 22:56:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2235.1563923254@dooku.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <2235.1563923254@dooku.sandelman.ca> From: tirumal reddy Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:25:50 +0530 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: "M. Ranganathan" , mud@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ce8a77058e66f632" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] Simplified Quarantine model X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:56:09 -0000 --000000000000ce8a77058e66f632 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, 24 Jul 2019 at 04:37, Michael Richardson wrote: > > tirumal reddy wrote: > > How do you identify an attacker is using the victim device's MAC and > IP > > address to send attack traffic (e.g. SYN flood) ? > > On wired, this has to be protected by using a managed switch and > then locking ports down to mac addresses. > > On wireless, one needs unique PSKs (or Enterprise WPA), which then one can > identify which device is which, and lock the MAC address down. > > Of course, all this fails if the devices are expected to randomize the L2 > address. > Yes, the problem is in Home networks and Enterprise networks already use various techniques to detect MAC spoofing. -Tiru > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh > networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network > architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on > rails [ > > --000000000000ce8a77058e66f632 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, 24 Jul 2019 at 04:37, Michael Ric= hardson <mcr@sandelman.ca> wr= ote:

tirumal reddy <ko= ndtir@gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > How do you identify an attacker is using the victim devi= ce's MAC and IP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > address to send attack traffic (e.g. SYN flood) ?

On wired, this has to be protected by using a managed switch and
then locking ports down to mac addresses.

On wireless, one needs unique PSKs (or Enterprise WPA), which then one can<= br> identify which device is which, and lock the MAC address down.

Of course, all this fails if the devices are expected to randomize the L2 address.

Yes, the problem is in Home ne= tworks and Enterprise networks already use various techniques to detect MAC= spoofing.

-Tiru
=C2=A0

--
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Never tell me the o= dds!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| ipv6 me= sh networks [
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 | network architect=C2=A0 [
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= mcr@sandelman.ca=C2=A0 http://www.sandelman.ca/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0ruby on rails=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [

--000000000000ce8a77058e66f632-- From nobody Wed Jul 24 11:35:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99CC7120338; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:35:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3qh3JUGx0tq8; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA891120141; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (dhcp-8550.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.133.80]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 927FA1F44B; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 18:34:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 887CD1624; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:35:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Kent Watsen cc: iot-onboarding@ietf.org, mud@ietf.org, Carsten Bormann In-reply-to: <0100016c24d9e7c7-ec4bf062-b68a-403b-b09c-0092a28fb104-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <9805.1563803155@dooku.sandelman.ca> <0100016c24d9e7c7-ec4bf062-b68a-403b-b09c-0092a28fb104-000000@email.amazonses.com> Comments: In-reply-to Kent Watsen message dated "Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:39:16 -0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:35:22 -0400 Message-ID: <21846.1563993322@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [Iot-onboarding] updates to diagram X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 18:35:04 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kent, thanks for the updates. I will adjust the diagram as you suggest! I have abandonned the enrollment-roadmap document, and I moved it to the iot-dir wiki at: https://trac.ietf.org/trac/int/wiki/EnrollmentRoadmap but, the wiki doesn't really help people to edit/update/maintain the diagra= m, so it is still in github. I'll change the github to indicate the text is no longer live. If you want to update the text in the wiki directly, that would be appreciated. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl04pOoACgkQlUzhVv38 QpD09Qf/Q+u4mIUkP7OAXYIjbgo5lkKpRL3cZqMsE2E/hV+ZnoQB6RfxFJS1GY6h IHDiNKE9EK4tY8FbgwwUuTmw2pmDdSG79i00mxrvH8iYrQjridmMzhe+sRh3w/6r FLdZPritE2Is5SxMmSuwkbpMMOuJJrppCgEMe6XhkkZM2wCfCkbkJsioJAYnmdAR Z7O+rgjHeuyadcyfuP3YDulqsVjdm4vXNtflEM8hsN3R9kiuFzIc/BrnMIkAtkiR uRwJwrVeLJDU9cNK3HJnZ0gjQ+tzUVQo++S23P/pAsNzHLqFRog0Y4tSJCvW1/NC ET+R0OoMrkubC/t4LWlLYXDgaZTl0w== =Kwos -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Jul 24 13:34:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01B9F120623; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:34:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dLt_TsDL94IB; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 914361206BF; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:6e88:14ff:fe34:93bc]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD1C11F44B; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 20:34:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 27EF7138B; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:34:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Kent Watsen cc: iot-onboarding@ietf.org, mud@ietf.org, Carsten Bormann In-reply-to: <0100016c24d9e7c7-ec4bf062-b68a-403b-b09c-0092a28fb104-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: <9805.1563803155@dooku.sandelman.ca> <0100016c24d9e7c7-ec4bf062-b68a-403b-b09c-0092a28fb104-000000@email.amazonses.com> Comments: In-reply-to Kent Watsen message dated "Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:39:16 -0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:34:58 -0400 Message-ID: <28771.1564000498@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [Iot-onboarding] updates to diagram X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 20:34:49 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kent Watsen wrote: > The diagram has the label "NETCONF", but this is confusing...while > produced by the NETCONF WG, the solution itself does not depend on the > NETCONF=20 > protocol (though it MAY bootstrap a secure NETCONF session) From a pr= otocol > perspective, it might be more appropriate to have HTTP, or REST, or e= ven > RESTCONF. That said, I think the label "SZTP" is best, as that is the > acronyms used in the RFC. For lack of a better term, I'll change "NETCONF" to "SZTP (netconf)" > I'm unsure about what is implied by the label MASA. If just the acron= ym as > defined in the voucher draft, then there should be an arrow pointing = to > the SZTP box as well. However, if it implies a functional component > (protocol API), then there should be another box called "OVIS" > (ownership voucher=20 > issuance service) that points to the SZTP box. My intention of the MASA box is that it involves itself in the middle three items, but not the left-most "ultra-contrained bootstrap" I have added an equivalent box and marked it "OVIS" > Lastly, the bottom row appears to capture statefulness of the > connection to MASA. No, it's not connection to the MASA, the MASA box is just at the bottom in order to not overlap. The statefulness is intended to be the transport that is under the boxes above. That is, BRSKI is: JSON-voucher -over- CMS -over- TCP -over- circuit-level while 6tisch-zero-touch is: CBOR -over- COSE -over- EDHOC/LAKE -over- OSCORE -over- stateless CoAP proxy > FWIW, the SZTP solution doesn't necessitate a MASA > at the time of the=20 > bootstrapping event. To be clearer, the pledge MAY send a nonce to a = local > SZTP server, which MAY in turn use that nonce to retrieve an ephemeral > voucher from a MASA/OVIS system. Agreed... I'm in general assuming that it could be USB/sneaker-net. I don't know how to represent this well. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl04wPEACgkQlUzhVv38 QpCSJggAo4ridovtuV4fbsFr8yjf0YQ1qbSEC/3qpXT5NTHbwG06qfch/U3chaPl a4nld1AHofm5X7b2dXcB+8jdS6WtkCdS5r6lBlCm7j4FXYJTfOStxEPtdcjzCWhp 1xJwJvyLDA9ACDjv6qfLtA2VZIxCxs4n005eZUtBrsubsH+9rfgoA7Lg0fXeas3W 26opl9KG/OuNCEziyGyk4p9K+sX0CLRXnM9BzAoez5n33F0vSdXHoP0UHisymxBU ARPzVxmeCxhRO5KeTbvLuB47wJ+ylFQ+sXtTIdgIikLHfuz7DJAtGG9vZhs3aaHb y6dmY+uHrz3BEhqzdaJMQghp+bM8kQ== =/sgd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jul 26 16:31:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74ED21201CF for ; 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Fri, 26 Jul 2019 08:53:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <112384FB-C68D-4308-8ED9-C0BBF615751D@frobbit.se> <1C02AB5B-D01E-49F6-86CE-BAEF4779E776@frobbit.se> <2E080C62-CFC9-4851-B2AE-701E5D543A71@frobbit.se> <45A7F1E2-B619-40C4-A4CD-F3DE246CD60C@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <45A7F1E2-B619-40C4-A4CD-F3DE246CD60C@fugue.com> From: Brian Dickson Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 11:53:45 -0400 Message-ID: To: Ted Lemon Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Add] My longer list of questions [from partial distribution at the MIC] X-BeenThere: add@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications Doing DNS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: =?UTF-8?B?UGF0cmlrIEbDpGx0c3Ryw7Zt?= , ADD Mailing list , Rob Sayre , Wes Hardaker Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5030205708597811842==" Errors-To: add-bounces@ietf.org Sender: "Add" Received-SPF: pass (mx125.antispamcloud.com: domain of ietf.org designates 4.31.198.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=4.31.198.44; 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boundary="000000000000c75980058e978cfb" --000000000000c75980058e978cfb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 11:06 AM Ted Lemon wrote: > > > On Jul 26, 2019, at 10:50 AM, Brian Dickson > wrote: > > > - One approach to enforcing the policy has a larger scope than the OS. > It is to view DoH itself as the problem, and ask, how can we put the D= oH > genie (djinn) back in the bottle? > > The djinn was never in the bottle in the first place. If this discussion > is going to continue to entertain the fantasy that malware isn=E2=80=99t = already > doing this, it=E2=80=99s not likely to be very useful. > One important distinction about malware "doing this": prior to the scenario where DoH (to an independently-operated resolver) was used, it was possible to detect this malware activity by correlation between DNS queries and TLS connections. In order to establish a TLS connection, the client app needs to do a DNS query to identify the IP address of the server to which it plans to connect= .. A hypothetical anti-malware system with integration to the DNS query feed, would be aware of specific clients requesting specific DNS records, and the TTLs of the responses. Connections not conforming to tuples of (current time, client IP, server IP, TTL expiry time) would be detectable and alert-able. (Additional information on connections' SNI and servers' names allows much greater accuracy, but if/when ESNI happens, this signal goes away.) In an environment where DNS resolver choice cannot be detected or enforced, negates this model, particularly if all DNS query traffic becomes unobservable to the hypothetical anti-malware system. This is a change to the threat detection and blocking environment, and exists only when encrypted DNS is commingled with HTTPS traffic. Brian --000000000000c75980058e978cfb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 11:06 AM Ted = Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrot= e:


On Jul 26, 2019, at 10:50 AM, Brian Dickson &= lt;brian= ..peter.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:
  • One approa= ch to enforcing the policy has a larger scope than the OS. It is to view Do= H itself as the problem, and ask, how can we put the DoH genie (djinn) back= in the bottle?
The djinn was never in the bottle in the first plac= e. If this discussion is going to continue to entertain the fantasy that ma= lware isn=E2=80=99t already doing this, it=E2=80=99s not likely to be very = useful.

One important disti= nction about malware "doing this": prior to the scenario where Do= H (to an independently-operated resolver) was used, it was possible to dete= ct this malware activity by correlation between DNS queries and TLS connect= ions.

In order to establish a TLS connection, the = client app needs to do a DNS query to identify the IP address of the server= to which it plans to connect.

A hypothetical anti= -malware system with integration to the DNS query feed, would be aware of s= pecific clients requesting specific DNS records, and the TTLs of the respon= ses.

Connections not conforming to tuples of (curr= ent time, client IP, server IP, TTL expiry time) would be detectable and al= ert-able. (Additional information on connections' SNI and servers' = names allows much greater accuracy, but if/when ESNI happens, this signal g= oes away.)

In an environment where DNS resolver ch= oice cannot be detected or enforced, negates this model, particularly if al= l DNS query traffic becomes unobservable to the hypothetical anti-malware s= ystem.

This is a change to the threat detection an= d blocking environment, and exists only when encrypted DNS is commingled wi= th HTTPS traffic.

Brian
=C2=A0
--000000000000c75980058e978cfb-- --===============5030205708597811842== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -- Add mailing list Add@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/add --===============5030205708597811842==-- --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-=-- --==-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl07jWkACgkQlUzhVv38 QpD0Lgf/Tvm2Z0170BTn2C87bvLBy6J7jE4liU7mEDItUK/8wo58HtLmO+h6LYpv 3sPJS4owqAggMJuLJeuWMNnsmEJ5ZTyf0hmmUL8j1iK0n822FQIoOXNAO8CMPT8m 7WGsXMjIUuDsEkzXilUMRbzVcqL7osnr5pd9OUMrMZA8ITcXbyHRQcY/fpKUJI9I /S2qM/Vg9sgnG1pgEEkoSrUXq8Pie2lVCSY98KoQMkQfWe7iyThLWesRVoi/BX6w aUsvDfo+wV7H+xlTdyi4ZDj76yCn1SPkFs5xaP+dpHqHbze3EupmcED4fyC7dl0y A9/9DXbhuo1iWFerDpJkObKO7eD3Ow== =HOhq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==-=-=-- From nobody Sun Jul 28 09:09:07 2019 Return-Path: <0100016c24d9e7c7-ec4bf062-b68a-403b-b09c-0092a28fb104-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 979871205D7; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:39:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B_HvmUUkzefg; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-96.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03FC21205D1; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:39:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1563986356; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=zlN4HLbjc9S8yfwdSiI7GrEuOkisRXARv/KTFeaN7PI=; b=SxJ5xNTv3zkV0HAF8P+hfX6MbMRp8viZLQ8o3UDbq2KdD9w0b/wFU/SLpt866NdM eaUUDKQ1t8eaPgDnV6MNGwYY07HUvPg17Zfzo3XsYpgbyZAEgzcovz9uQRkcHMkUtCr w2BpycflnautFn1FUFqkRBHC9HD8+ZaBl+OqUC9I= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100016c24d9e7c7-ec4bf062-b68a-403b-b09c-0092a28fb104-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D6666BF6-9A8C-4D76-8753-E68750DFBBA5" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:39:16 +0000 In-Reply-To: <9805.1563803155@dooku.sandelman.ca> Cc: iot-onboarding@ietf.org, mud@ietf.org, Carsten Bormann To: Michael Richardson References: <9805.1563803155@dooku.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-SES-Outgoing: 2019.07.24-54.240.8.96 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 09:09:05 -0700 Subject: Re: [Mud] [Iot-onboarding] updates to diagram X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:39:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D6666BF6-9A8C-4D76-8753-E68750DFBBA5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Michael, Cool diagram. A few comments: The diagram has the label "NETCONF", but this is confusing...while = produced by the NETCONF WG, the solution itself does not depend on the = NETCONF protocol (though it MAY bootstrap a secure NETCONF session) = =46rom a protocol perspective, it might be more appropriate to have = HTTP, or REST, or even RESTCONF. That said, I think the label "SZTP" is = best, as that is the acronyms used in the RFC. I'm unsure about what is implied by the label MASA. If just the acronym = as defined in the voucher draft, then there should be an arrow pointing = to the SZTP box as well. However, if it implies a functional component = (protocol API), then there should be another box called "OVIS" = (ownership voucher issuance service) that points to the SZTP box. Lastly, the bottom row appears to capture statefulness of the connection = to MASA. FWIW, the SZTP solution doesn't necessitate a MASA at the time = of the bootstrapping event. To be clearer, the pledge MAY send a nonce = to a local SZTP server, which MAY in turn use that nonce to retrieve an = ephemeral voucher from a MASA/OVIS system. Also, I skimmed the enrollment-roadmap draft and found a couple the = SZTP-related sections needing fixing: Section 5 (call-home ssh/tls/usbkey): NEW: SZTP assumes that the pledge can access a "source of bootstrapping=20 information", which is unbounded, though the draft defines four: = removable storage devices (e.g., USB key), DNS/mDNS, DHCP v4/v6, and SZTP bootstrap server (i.e., HTTPS). Pledges MAY have well-known SZTP bootstrap servers preconfigured during manufacturing, which entails Internet connectivity). The end-state of the bootstrapping process is the pledge running an = initial=20 configuration that may configure the pledge to either open ports to = accept inbound management connections, or cause the pledge to proactively = initiate outbound call home management connections (e.g., RFC 8071). And also Section 7.1 (NETCONF): NEW SZTP is defined in RFC 8572. SZTP provides the pledge an initial configuration via a mix of = sources including removable storage devices (e.g., USB Key, DHCPv4, DHCPv6, mDNS, and SZTP bootstrap servers). Ownership vouchers are only required when the pledge is otherwise unable to trust the network=20 (e.g., using built-in anchors). =20 The initial configuration can be any valid configuration, but = typically it is the minimal necessary to enable the pledge to establish connectivity = to its owner's controller/NMS application. The pledge MAY open ports = for=20 inbound management connections, but it is more typical for the pledge to initiate a call home connection (e.g., RFC 8071). SZTP is seen as an updated version of TR-69 by some, appropriate for configuration of residential appliances which are drop-shiped by ISPs or other service providers to homes. It is also used for other deployments including, e.g., campus, retail, kiosks, satellite = offices. Kent > On Jul 22, 2019, at 9:45 AM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >=20 > I have updated the dia/svg version of the diagram that Eliot put on = the > screen, but some were too far away to see. >=20 > There is also an asciio version, but I think that I will maintain the = pretty > version only. The key changes is that I inserted RFC8572 and RFC8366 > labels. >=20 > I will think about how to insert BRSKI-TEEP. >=20 > It is at: > https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap >=20 > = https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap/blob/master/technology-comp= onents.svg >=20 > = https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap/blob/master/building-block-= diagram.txt >=20 > --=20 > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh = networks [=20 > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network = architect [=20 > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on = rails [=20 > =09 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Iot-onboarding mailing list > Iot-onboarding@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iot-onboarding --Apple-Mail=_D6666BF6-9A8C-4D76-8753-E68750DFBBA5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hi Michael,

Cool diagram.  A few comments:

The diagram has the label "NETCONF", = but this is confusing...while produced by the NETCONF WG, the solution = itself does not depend on the NETCONF protocol (though it MAY bootstrap = a secure NETCONF session)  =46rom a protocol perspective, it might = be more appropriate to have HTTP, or REST, or even RESTCONF.  That = said, I think the label "SZTP" is best, as that is the acronyms used in = the RFC.

I'm = unsure about what is implied by the label MASA.  If just the = acronym as defined in the voucher draft, then there should be an arrow = pointing to the SZTP box as well.  However, if it implies a = functional component (protocol API), then there should be another box = called "OVIS" (ownership voucher issuance service) that points to the = SZTP box.

Lastly, the bottom row appears to capture statefulness of the = connection to MASA.  FWIW, the SZTP solution doesn't necessitate a = MASA at the time of the bootstrapping event.  To be clearer, the = pledge MAY send a nonce to a local SZTP server, which MAY in turn use = that nonce to retrieve an ephemeral voucher from a MASA/OVIS = system.

Also, = I skimmed the enrollment-roadmap draft and found a couple the = SZTP-related sections needing fixing:


Section 5 (call-home ssh/tls/usbkey):

NEW:

   SZTP assumes that the = pledge can access a "source of bootstrapping 
   information", which is unbounded, though the = draft defines four: removable
   storage = devices (e.g., USB key), DNS/mDNS, DHCP v4/v6, and SZTP
   bootstrap server (i.e., HTTPS).   Pledges = MAY have well-known SZTP
   bootstrap = servers preconfigured during manufacturing, which entails
   Internet connectivity).

   The end-state of the = bootstrapping process is the pledge running an initial 
   configuration that may configure = the pledge to either open ports to accept
   inbound management connections, or cause the = pledge to proactively initiate
  =  outbound call home management connections (e.g., RFC = 8071).



And = also Section 7.1 (NETCONF):

NEW

   SZTP is = defined in RFC 8572.

  =  SZTP provides the pledge an initial configuration via a mix = of sources
   including removable storage = devices (e.g., USB Key,  DHCPv4, DHCPv6,
  =  mDNS, and SZTP bootstrap servers).  Ownership vouchers are = only
   required when the pledge is = otherwise unable to trust the network 
  =  (e.g., using built-in anchors).  

   The initial configuration = can be any valid configuration, but typically it is
   the minimal necessary to enable the pledge to = establish connectivity to
   its owner's =  controller/NMS application.  The pledge MAY open = ports for 
   inbound management = connections, but it is more typical for the pledge
   to initiate a call home connection (e.g., RFC = 8071).

  =  SZTP is seen as an updated version of TR-69 by some, = appropriate
   for configuration of residential = appliances which are drop-shiped by
   ISPs or = other service providers to homes.  It is also used for = other
   deployments including, e.g., = campus, retail, kiosks, satellite offices.



Kent



On Jul 22, 2019, at 9:45 AM, Michael = Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:


I have updated the dia/svg version of the diagram that Eliot = put on the
screen, but some were too far away to see.

There is also an asciio version, but I think = that I will maintain the pretty
version only. =   The key changes is that I inserted RFC8572 and RFC8366
labels.

I will think about how = to insert BRSKI-TEEP.

It is at:
 https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap

https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap/blob/master/tech= nology-components.svg

https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap/blob/master/buil= ding-block-diagram.txt

--
] =             &n= bsp; Never tell me the odds! =             &n= bsp;   | ipv6 mesh networks [
] =   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works =        | network architect  [ =
]     mcr@sandelman.ca =  http://www.sandelman.ca/ =        |   ruby on rails =    [



--
Iot-onboarding mailing list
Iot-onboarding@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iot-onboarding

= --Apple-Mail=_D6666BF6-9A8C-4D76-8753-E68750DFBBA5-- From nobody Tue Jul 30 10:38:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A3B3120299 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 10:38:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sr3I8B3VZleI for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 10:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76C551201CC for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 10:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2:56b2:3ff:fe0b:d84]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFB173808A; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 13:38:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47160980; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 13:38:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: mud@ietf.org, canada-iot-security-discussion-request@elists.isoc.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Mud] a place MUD would have helped --- US security cameras X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 17:38:34 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable btw: I don't think it's actually fair to single-out cameras from a single country. I haven't read the Act (nor am I likely to), but it imagine if it had used positive language like, "the country of origin and the manufacturing firm MUST be easily identifiable on packaging and via firmware provided information, such as RFC8520" {I am taking everything Bloomberg writes with a medium sized grain of salt, after the spy chip story.} https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-10/banned-chinese-security-= cameras-are-almost-impossible-to-remove says: But thousands of the devices are still in place and chances are most won= =E2=80=99t be removed before the Aug. 13 deadline. A complex web of supply chain logistics and licensing agreements make it almost impossible to know whether a security camera is actually made in China or contains componen= ts that would violate U.S. rules.=20=20 The National Defense Authorization Act, or NDAA, which outlines the budg= et and spending for the Defense Department each year, included an amendment for fiscal 2019 that would ensure federal agencies do not purchase Chinese-made surveillance cameras. The amendment singles out Zhejiang Dahua Technology Co. and Hangzhou Hikvision Digital Technology Co., both of which have raised security concerns with the U.S. government and surveillance industry. ... I wrote on the IoTSF basecamp in the thread about this: It's amazing, but hardly surprising. The lack of comprehension of among the (US) supply chain of the risks of relabelling has been going on for decades. Swapping internal components (even moving to completely different CPUs) without changing the label on the outside is something that many US based suppliers of equipment including Cisco/Linksys, Norte= l, Polycom, Belkin, etc. have done repeatedly to the frustration of their customers who want to do simple things like just upgrade firmware regularly.=20 If Honeywell doesn't know what they sold, then they can hardly be expect= ed to comply to needs to issue CVEs, etc. which suggests that both the cust= omer and the supplier had no plans at all to ever think about firmware update= s to the devices. Were I in charge, I'd be firing/demoting people in the *govern= ment* who did this procurement, and not just cancelling contracts but going for breach of contract.=20=20=20 Let me suggest some ways in which this could have been prevented. (You'll hardly be surprised at my self-promotion, but I'm working in this area for a reason...) Two key and usefully intertwined technologies: had RFC8520 (MUD) been required for the cameras, then the MUD URL presented by the *firmware* might have sliced through all relabelling BS, and would identified the product relatively well. If a proper onboarding system had been used that transferred ownership control to the legal owner, then that could have resulted in a clear IDevID reference to the manufacturer, and through the onboarding process,= an=20 actual inventory of devices. The "BRSKI" (draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra) system that I'm a key author of= =20 is one such system; there were two talks at last year's IoTSF on BRSKI. BRSKI is one of the better ways to pass the MUD URL on.=20=20=20 Firmware attestation is also important, not because it detects malicious firmware like was shipped by Dahua (honestly, how is that not a death sentence for the company?) , but because it forces the manufacturer of the firmware to identify itself.=20 =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect = [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl1AgJUACgkQgItw+93Q 3WU4eQgAk926k6mEetf+RmyIiMqbajhJWo33L20B0ebE1bqgp2BlhHg3oT8bajGT mg9T4s7vknXJegTGR/LqlIP/RteESdEpQ2TOKcu+RTcxkniS9reDjrO1vzC//xKp TYndoQIYj2VxBEDbKDaij04zFAaUc1eitvDfIkf+tanu78GkQ5St6ESJYrUIiNOv rU3AmfdIZ9iEXFtvnQKYQViLi8iBpgi3JVs+wplvmbcmXmO2Q4ENiO2rcq08VV5O +oLJAqTEBqvyA09B0rd3GdZO9ssBjpL4Z9b98Wju6UH2xiczTrQEn2zHW5YvNm7a r90hHMyqJqyEi14KqewaH7paTT/r0g== =lK4M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Jul 31 01:46:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C28A120118; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 01:45:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ktVQ1ePKaJu2; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 01:45:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13BD61201F8; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 01:45:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9265; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1564562727; x=1565772327; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=Xgqzfo6jg9TltdJT8HS+dDKr4IMqHj0AQP6TyyTkwTA=; b=JyBENslti0UN29H05QjEOoN9uFAU10EJvoX3P7DZ9uex3sCIDcQJndHl z79dDEQ8yQZX13oDYXD8GrDq0KHUXpL6xZp22RE4Iu+DL6/m+xMA1i7P0 41PcY8bvRrR8O28doSFp536L5Nqc5VDEjVx6rUBkhbRqLd6fKlqgXTOBv c=; X-Files: signature.asc : 195 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.64,329,1559520000"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="14846925" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 31 Jul 2019 08:45:25 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-107-110.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-107-110.cisco.com [10.61.107.110]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x6V8jOqF012018 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 31 Jul 2019 08:45:25 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DB460E03-43F5-451D-BFC3-591A91EE8F1F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:45:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: <849DED7F-6701-4B26-9645-0B076A224C05@cisco.com> Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" , "ops-ads@ietf.org" , mud@ietf.org To: "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" References: <849DED7F-6701-4B26-9645-0B076A224C05@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.107.110, dhcp-10-61-107-110.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] The future of MUD work X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 08:45:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DB460E03-43F5-451D-BFC3-591A91EE8F1F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A5BDDA8B-1942-4347-A379-557A158292EC" --Apple-Mail=_A5BDDA8B-1942-4347-A379-557A158292EC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On the other hand, it shouldn=E2=80=99t just be me. It=E2=80=99d be a = very small working group ;-) If others are interested, they should speak = up. > On 30 Jul 2019, at 11:09, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > Hi Joe, >=20 >> On 29 Jul 2019, at 23:44, Joe Clarke (jclarke) = wrote: >>=20 >> OpsAWG members and our Ops ADs, it was discussed in opsawg at IETF = 105 that with the amount of MUD work being proposed (and discussions = happening outside of opsawg) that perhaps MUD should evolve into its own = WG. Some cons to this approached were discussed (maybe it would be too = heavy-weight with a charter, milestones, etc.). However, I wanted to = take this conversation to the list so we can close on it publicly. >>=20 >> Speaking as WG co-chair, I am happy to continue to support the MUD = work in opsawg, but I want to make sure the WG feels compelled to work = on it; and I want to make sure the full community that is interested in = MUD can follow and discuss items here. That said, it was mentioned in = 105 that perhaps a bigger =E2=80=9Con-boarding=E2=80=9D set of work = would be better served in its own WG. I think if the scope of MUD grows = beyond the definition and its extensions (as we=E2=80=99ve been seeing = the work progress thus far) it might be better served in its own WG = space. >>=20 >> Thoughts? >=20 > I think it is probably time for at least one WG to spring from OPSAWG. = We didn=E2=80=99t really complete the agenda at the IETF, and a good = reason of that was MUD. There are at least four active drafts on that = one subject, one of which we didn=E2=80=99t really talk about = (bw-profile). For me it=E2=80=99s a matter of what can reasonably be = coded, tested, and be useful for manufacturers. In as much as we can = bring a bit more focus to manufacturers by offering them more of a venue = for discussion, the additional WG would be welcome. On the other hand, = if we find that we=E2=80=99re not making progress, or if we progress = extensions quickly, we can close the WG and continue the mailing list, = and move back to OPSAWG. I don=E2=80=99t see a MUD working group as a = long term activity (famous last words), but targeted more at producing = the necessary for broader adoption and then going out of business. >=20 > Eliot >=20 >>=20 >> Joe >> _______________________________________________ >> OPSAWG mailing list >> OPSAWG@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg = >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_A5BDDA8B-1942-4347-A379-557A158292EC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = the other hand, it shouldn=E2=80=99t just be me.  It=E2=80=99d be a = very small working group ;-) If others are interested, they should speak = up.

On 30 Jul 2019, at 11:09, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> = wrote:

Signed PGP = part
Hi Joe,

On 29 Jul 2019, at = 23:44, Joe Clarke (jclarke) <jclarke@cisco.com> wrote:

OpsAWG members and our Ops ADs, it was discussed in opsawg at = IETF 105 that with the amount of MUD work being proposed (and = discussions happening outside of opsawg) that perhaps MUD should evolve = into its own WG.  Some cons to this approached were discussed = (maybe it would be too heavy-weight with a charter, milestones, etc.). =  However, I wanted to take this conversation to the list so we can = close on it publicly.

Speaking as WG = co-chair, I am happy to continue to support the MUD work in opsawg, but = I want to make sure the WG feels compelled to work on it; and I want to = make sure the full community that is interested in MUD can follow and = discuss items here.  That said, it was mentioned in 105 that = perhaps a bigger =E2=80=9Con-boarding=E2=80=9D set of work would be = better served in its own WG.  I think if the scope of MUD grows = beyond the definition and its extensions (as we=E2=80=99ve been seeing = the work progress thus far) it might be better served in its own WG = space.

Thoughts?

I think it is probably time for = at least one WG to spring from OPSAWG.  We didn=E2=80=99t really = complete the agenda at the IETF, and a good reason of that was MUD. =  There are at least four active drafts on that one subject, one of = which we didn=E2=80=99t really talk about (bw-profile).  For me = it=E2=80=99s a matter of what can reasonably be coded, tested, and be = useful for manufacturers.  In as much as we can bring a bit more = focus to manufacturers by offering them more of a venue for discussion, = the additional WG would be welcome.  On the other hand, if we find = that we=E2=80=99re not making progress, or if we progress extensions = quickly, we can close the WG and continue the mailing list, and move = back to OPSAWG.  I don=E2=80=99t see a MUD working group as a long = term activity (famous last words), but targeted more at producing the = necessary for broader adoption and then going out of business.

Eliot


Joe
_______________________________________________
OPSAWG mailing list
OPSAWG@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg




= --Apple-Mail=_A5BDDA8B-1942-4347-A379-557A158292EC-- --Apple-Mail=_DB460E03-43F5-451D-BFC3-591A91EE8F1F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQTgo4LlIIJ5lIBumWpugA9nE248uAUCXUFVIwAKCRBugA9nE248 uB7eAJ0cKvNIe8QlNNYq6czGTzSseZYg2wCgs1Ma/00RPREyaaHIicJy0G9Fc88= =gaAO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_DB460E03-43F5-451D-BFC3-591A91EE8F1F-- From nobody Wed Jul 31 03:14:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE631120033 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 03:14:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LCFG8vTf3kxz for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 03:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D91DD12009C for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 03:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id a27so48791012qkk.5 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 03:14:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=AnXKg57BlOJEQ6PFxzwyenc3+jBLtDsFufrmxh6GIP0=; b=s8QvICSvvMUIaXS7vl59B+Hcm4Cse9f+pD7JxC5UeGrWz8xsQNLl5WxS3vgwWK7Vzw YG+9AnhwWvk1mdOoC707gWgWjX70Q0MASD3koTZRDRG5QWne2d2r1IEgyaTUJtKhngJG sRDz54cfVEfvmKbfDNq1w0bFiRr14HFXKIsgnsw3GGa762gjMCfZz3Qw8INWvarEHHpN OG2aa+C5SIC6G68j2JLgBent3tN322+Ly8kg+fERf7aWWerdRkAyjefcPI5vOe25ue7x NuHWQXLUs/NRJd6EYBtVqzU9dWOwAMiHW399vR1u8J7u3XCsLc4a4LykM8Z+0yhhDhsl vtiQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=AnXKg57BlOJEQ6PFxzwyenc3+jBLtDsFufrmxh6GIP0=; b=oifrVvzCX//WwttS8qeT8z5uzillqSOzf6b8I0aEp7DxVwo/AJyp2nD87GsR5Qxwsa f5l/svoNU7O4shSFfo3hDNExmJvMEmHg80ir/TH1A1Ro89sjSrJ7lENOuqAjyX7uZEiO yqeqJhmIGeDANPhAJgL2aBKyKrxLAVBhlG8T6V5QQ8+vyZqTtBYjYV0YXUPrdSPwCELq 8gTe7dfVihWyMphzPUVImVt9WB5CZlIj9WEVWVIEKCGmd7zdofD1hR6osrnuyw6QPzKA 2alyxlcFi6EMk3NwXIvWwIQWgTCeZZE1rOaOA6sHGvD2brqdhF1+qNHfBbQExwXtYnsR +C9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUGDgkGVF0o46U2kmyTxHAVLLydBpRvxWQQWP3VMliFU9Id4tpF QeUpT2o804n37C6Omd1tjZPGtQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwNFHvJlTjM8eICSna/SN4bbmOAgho6FG0IXcNtrHdOZdQrM8BKwz9IBuWHmB8N5Ye11KSx8w== X-Received: by 2002:ae9:dfc3:: with SMTP id t186mr76438342qkf.461.1564568078838; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 03:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:182:cc01:fc23:c976:18a2:7bd2:d55d? ([2601:182:cc01:fc23:c976:18a2:7bd2:d55d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s7sm28799840qtq.8.2019.07.31.03.14.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 31 Jul 2019 03:14:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <19F53DA6-C652-4695-ACB1-12745271A0CB@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6302382F-92B1-4C3E-8C3A-FEC81B63F3C1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 06:14:36 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" , "opsawg@ietf.org" , "ops-ads@ietf.org" , mud@ietf.org To: Eliot Lear References: <849DED7F-6701-4B26-9645-0B076A224C05@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] The future of MUD work X-BeenThere: mud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion of Manufacturer Ussage Descriptions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:14:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6302382F-92B1-4C3E-8C3A-FEC81B63F3C1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Jul 31, 2019, at 4:45 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > On the other hand, it shouldn=E2=80=99t just be me. It=E2=80=99d be a = very small working group ;-) If others are interested, they should speak = up. I don=E2=80=99t think I would necessarily initiate work, but I suspect = if there were a MUD WG I would show up for it and review documents. The = fact that MUD is in OPSAWG has meant that I don=E2=80=99t go because = that=E2=80=99s not a WG I normally go to, and I didn=E2=80=99t realize = that was where the MUD work was happening. --Apple-Mail=_6302382F-92B1-4C3E-8C3A-FEC81B63F3C1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Jul 31, 2019, at 4:45 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
On the other hand, it shouldn=E2=80=99t just be me. =  It=E2=80=99d be a very small working group ;-) If others are = interested, they should speak up.

I don=E2=80=99t = think I would necessarily initiate work, but I suspect if there were a = MUD WG I would show up for it and review documents.  The fact that = MUD is in OPSAWG has meant that I don=E2=80=99t go because that=E2=80=99s = not a WG I normally go to, and I didn=E2=80=99t realize that was where = the MUD work was happening.

= --Apple-Mail=_6302382F-92B1-4C3E-8C3A-FEC81B63F3C1--