From brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil Thu Apr 7 08:17:58 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmt@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rmt@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 680F128C13B for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2011 08:17:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id afcM5xjgGSO3 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2011 08:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from s2.itd.nrl.navy.mil (s2.itd.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.83.3]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C20FF28C130 for ; Thu, 7 Apr 2011 08:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil (smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.86.3]) by s2.itd.nrl.navy.mil (8.13.8/8.13.8) with SMTP id p37FJQb5022121; Thu, 7 Apr 2011 11:19:27 -0400 Received: from macsimus.itd.nrl.navy.mil ([132.250.92.151]) by smtp.itd.nrl.navy.mil (SMSSMTP 4.1.16.48) with SMTP id M2011040711192520340 ; Thu, 07 Apr 2011 11:19:25 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-55--387716580 From: brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil In-Reply-To: <4D94974B.7080101@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 11:18:34 -0400 Message-Id: <0D33217F-D80C-410A-B4C5-73B284C9339F@nrl.navy.mil> References: <4D93955C.8010407@inrialpes.fr> <4D94974B.7080101@ericsson.com> To: Magnus Westerlund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Cc: rmt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Rmt] About Flute-revised open points X-BeenThere: rmt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Reliable Multicast Transport List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 15:17:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail-55--387716580 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I agree with Magnus here. I hope that Rod can review Vincent's = historical summary of the issues and provide consensus or comments to = help us resolve this. =20 Additionally, here is a link to the message that summarizes the = backwards incompatibility issues identified by Dave Harrington's AD = review of FLUTE: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg01434.html best regards, Brian Adamson brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil On Mar 31, 2011, at 11:01 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I think this is a good example of what I expect in this discussion. I > think that a number of the changes has good reasons to their changes = and > that we are not likely to reverse the WG documents text. For the = record > I don't really remember the reasons for the designs in this schema and > what the underlying 3GPP reasons are. >=20 > I have no rapid need for an updated flute so I am willing to let this > discussion go on for a while. Especially letting people try to dig up > any more motivations. But the fact is that the WG spent 5+ years in > producing this document. There are reasons why it looks like it does. > Reversing that decision at the last minute seems dangerous and likely = to > cause more issues than actually bumping the version number. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus Everybody, A follow-up to our long discussion during the meeting: 1- Concerning Flute version, the email that convinced me of the necessity to move to version 2 is the following one, from Mike, sent on Feb 7, 2011: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg01511.html 2- Concerning XML extensibility, after searching a little bit better in my archives, I finally found the initial reasons. See the following 3 emails (from June 2005): * The initial email (from Rod) explaining why 3GPP proposed another schema: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg00404.html * The answer from Magnus, with the 3GPP schema: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg00477.html * Finally Rod's promise (yes!!!) to include this schema: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg00482.html That's for the history. The question now is what do we want to do? Vincent > _______________________________________________ > Rmt mailing list > Rmt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rmt >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > Rmt mailing list > Rmt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rmt >=20 --Apple-Mail-55--387716580 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 I = agree with Magnus here.    I hope that Rod can review = Vincent's historical summary of the issues and provide consensus or = comments to help us resolve this. =  

Additionally, here is a link to the message = that summarizes the backwards incompatibility issues identified by Dave = Harrington's AD review of FLUTE:





best = regards,


brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil<= /div>





On Mar 31, 2011, at 11:01 AM, Magnus Westerlund = wrote:

Hi,

I think this is a good example of what I = expect in this discussion. I
think that a number of the changes has = good reasons to their changes and
that we are not likely to reverse = the WG documents text. For the record
I don't really remember the = reasons for the designs in this schema and
what the underlying 3GPP = reasons are.

I have no rapid need for an updated flute so I am = willing to let this
discussion go on for a while. Especially letting = people try to dig up
any more motivations. But the fact is that the = WG spent 5+ years in
producing this document. There are reasons why = it looks like it does.
Reversing that decision at the last minute = seems dangerous and likely to
cause more issues than actually bumping = the version = number.

Cheers

Magnus

<= div>Everybody,

A follow-up to our long discussion = during the meeting:

1- Concerning Flute version, the email that = convinced
   me of the necessity to move to version 2 = is the
   following one, from Mike, sent on Feb 7, = 2011:

ht= tp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg01511.html

2-= Concerning XML extensibility, after searching a = little
   bit better in my archives, I finally found = the initial reasons.
   See the following 3 emails = (from June 2005):

* The initial email (from Rod) explaining why = 3GPP proposed
   another schema:
ht= tp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg00404.html

* = The answer from Magnus, with the 3GPP schema:
ht= tp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg00477.html

* = Finally Rod's promise (yes!!!) to include this schema:
ht= tp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg00482.html

Th= at's for the history. The question now is what do we want
to = do?

 Vincent

_______________________________________________
Rmt mailing = list
Rmt@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/rmt


-- =

Magnus = Westerlund

--------------------------------------------------------= --------------
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research = EAB/TVM
---------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ericsson AB =             &n= bsp;  | Phone  +46 10 7148287
F=E4r=F6gatan 6 =             &n= bsp;  | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| = mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.= com
---------------------------------------------------------------= -------
_______________________________________________
Rmt = mailing list
Rmt@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/rmt


= --Apple-Mail-55--387716580-- From Rod.Walsh@nokia.com Sat Apr 9 04:23:31 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmt@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rmt@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A2628C0E5 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2011 04:23:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.444 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.444 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.154, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10qWgAm8fNnd for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2011 04:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-da02.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [147.243.128.26]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A03B828C0DE for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2011 04:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaebh102.NOE.Nokia.com (vaebh102.europe.nokia.com [10.160.244.23]) by mgw-da02.nokia.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id p39BPBwJ027960; Sat, 9 Apr 2011 14:25:11 +0300 Received: from smtp.mgd.nokia.com ([65.54.30.7]) by vaebh102.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sat, 9 Apr 2011 14:25:10 +0300 Received: from NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.86]) by nok-am1mhub-03.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.7]) with mapi; Sat, 9 Apr 2011 13:25:10 +0200 From: To: , Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 13:24:52 +0200 Thread-Topic: [Rmt] About Flute-revised open points Thread-Index: Acv2qMkRFeFSZlUpTpSOxW2AgiLMMQ== Message-ID: <1302348292.4017.8.camel@Nokia-N900> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_130234829240178camelNokiaN900_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Apr 2011 11:25:10.0439 (UTC) FILETIME=[C96B6B70:01CBF6A8] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: rmt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Rmt] About Flute-revised open points X-BeenThere: rmt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Rod.Walsh@nokia.com List-Id: Reliable Multicast Transport List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 11:23:31 -0000 --_000_130234829240178camelNokiaN900_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhhbmtzIGZvciBEYXZlJ3MgbGluaywgSSdsbCBjaGVjayB0aGlzIG91dCBuZXh0IHdlZWsuDQoN Ck1lYW53aGlsZS4uLg0KDQpJdCBzZWVtcyBsaWtlIEkgYW0gYmVpbmcgcGFpbnRlZCBhIGxpdHRs ZSBsaWtlIHRoZSBvdXRsaWVyIHdpdGggbGFzdCBtaW51dGUgaml0dGVycy4gQXMgVmluY2VudCBr aW5kbHkgcG9pbnRlZCBvdXQgdGhlcmUgYXJlIGEgZmV3IHVucmVzb2x2ZWQgdGhyZWFkcyB0aGF0 IGhhdmUgYmVlbiBydW5uaW5nIGEgbG9uZyB3aGlsZS4gTW9zdGx5IHdlIHNpbXBseSBoYXZlbid0 IGJvdGhlcmVkIHRvIGdldCB0aGVtIHJlc29sdmVkLiBGb3IgZWFjaCBvZiB0aG9zZSB5ZWFycy4g KEFuZCBJIG11c3QgYWxzbyBwZXJzb25hbGx5IGFwcG9sb2dpc2UgZm9yIG5vdCB0cmFja2luZyBM Q1QgYW5kIEFMQyBhdCBlYWNoIHJldmlzaW9uIHNvIGFzIGNhdGNoIHRoZSBncmVhdGVyIHRoYW4g 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ICYjMzI7QVRUMDAwMDEuLnR4dA0KPGJyPjxicj48L3A+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_130234829240178camelNokiaN900_-- From Rod.Walsh@nokia.com Sat Apr 9 04:28:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmt@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rmt@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58DCB28C0E8 for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2011 04:28:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.135, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7iHFgQ659cUR for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2011 04:28:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-sa01.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [147.243.1.47]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBF5228C0DE for ; Sat, 9 Apr 2011 04:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaebh105.NOE.Nokia.com (vaebh105.europe.nokia.com [10.160.244.31]) by mgw-sa01.nokia.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id p39BUCne030957; Sat, 9 Apr 2011 14:30:12 +0300 Received: from smtp.mgd.nokia.com ([65.54.30.6]) by vaebh105.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sat, 9 Apr 2011 14:30:12 +0300 Received: from NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.86]) by nok-am1mhub-02.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.6]) with mapi; Sat, 9 Apr 2011 13:29:59 +0200 From: To: , Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 13:29:45 +0200 Thread-Topic: [Rmt] About Flute-revised open points Thread-Index: Acv2qXVsJF/69JTzS0O60yc5Eki+fg== Message-ID: <1302348585.4017.17.camel@Nokia-N900> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1302348585401717camelNokiaN900_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Apr 2011 11:30:12.0194 (UTC) FILETIME=[7D479420:01CBF6A9] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: rmt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Rmt] About Flute-revised open points X-BeenThere: rmt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Rod.Walsh@nokia.com List-Id: Reliable Multicast Transport List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 11:28:32 -0000 --_000_1302348585401717camelNokiaN900_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RXJyb3IgaW4gcHJldmlvdXMgbWVzc2FnZTogbG9uZyB0byBieXRlIGNoYW5nZSBpbiB4bWwgaXMg ZmluZS4gKE90aGVyIG90aGVyIHdheSByb3VuZCBjb3VsZCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gZmF0YWwpLiBDaGVl cnMsIFJvZC4NCg0KLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgbWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLQ0KPiBUaGFua3MgZm9yIERh dmUncyBsaW5rLCBJJ2xsIGNoZWNrIHRoaXMgb3V0IG5leHQgd2Vlay4NCj4NCj4gTWVhbndoaWxl Li4uDQo+DQo+IEl0IHNlZW1zIGxpa2UgSSBhbSBiZWluZyBwYWludGVkIGEgbGl0dGxlIGxpa2Ug dGhlIG91dGxpZXIgd2l0aCBsYXN0DQo+IG1pbnV0ZSBqaXR0ZXJzLiBBcyBWaW5jZW50IGtpbmRs eSBwb2ludGVkIG91dCB0aGVyZSBhcmUgYSBmZXcgdW5yZXNvbHZlZA0KPiB0aHJlYWRzIHRoYXQg 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MDAxLi50eHQNCjxicj48YnI+PC9wPg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_1302348585401717camelNokiaN900_-- From ietfdbh@comcast.net Wed Apr 13 00:47:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmt@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: rmt@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2991EE06B9 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 00:47:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sD7tcwUktYbi for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 00:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qmta14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.59.212]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 569FFE0674 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 00:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.27]) by qmta14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Wvmq1g0030bG4ec5EvnkCv; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 07:47:44 +0000 Received: from davidPC ([188.20.103.10]) by omta03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id WvnF1g00B0DTzuc3PvnT4G; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 07:47:42 +0000 From: "David Harrington" To: , , References: <1302348585.4017.17.camel@Nokia-N900> In-Reply-To: <1302348585.4017.17.camel@Nokia-N900> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:47:09 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00F0_01CBF9BF.D1EFBB10" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.1.7600.16543 Thread-Index: Acv2qXVsJF/69JTzS0O60yc5Eki+fgDAtz7A Cc: rmt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Rmt] About Flute-revised open points X-BeenThere: rmt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Reliable Multicast Transport List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 07:47:45 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F0_01CBF9BF.D1EFBB10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 I think it makes no difference whether it is byte-to-long or long-to-byte. If one implementation sends a long value to an implementation that supports only byte, they do not interoperate. Both ends need to agree or you lose interoperability. If the specs differ, then you need a mechanism to determine which set of rules are followed - a version# =20 dbh =20 =20 _____ =20 From: rmt-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rmt-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rod.Walsh@nokia.com Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 1:30 PM To: brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil; magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com Cc: rmt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Rmt] About Flute-revised open points Error in previous message: long to byte change in xml is fine. (Other other way round could have been fatal). Cheers, Rod.=20 ----- Original message -----=20 > Thanks for Dave's link, I'll check this out next week.=20 >=20 > Meanwhile...=20 >=20 > It seems like I am being painted a little like the outlier with last > minute jitters. As Vincent kindly pointed out there are a few unresolved=20 > threads that have been running a long while. Mostly we simply haven't=20 > bothered to get them resolved. For each of those years. (And I must also=20 > personally appologise for not tracking LCT and ALC at each revision so=20 > as catch the greater than agreed impact on FLUTE before they went=20 > standards track. Of course we may well have had the same end result, > just without the percenption of last minute issues). In spite of=20 > originally agreeing to maintain compatability where feasible, we're now=20 > stuck with some long term undiscolsed design decisions. Practically, we=20 > may have to embrace the unknown, but it's reasonable engineering to=20 > point out that our process has these black spots, whether communicated=20 > as last minute jitters or otherwise :)=20 >=20 > So as Magnus earlier suggested, I feel we need to be pragmatic with what=20 > we have. At the same time I feel we need a bit of design explanation > where it exists as the rmt mailing list has been a close approximation=20 > to silent on these issues for most for this bis/revised era. (E.g. I > hope I've overlooked the discussion or notification of non-backwards > comatible changes prior to an updated ID appearing for LCT and ALC, and=20 > would be grateful to hear that this is so).=20 >=20 > Meanwhile, to Vincent's couple of points:=20 >=20 > 1. Yes, in RMT terms that's a recent email with responses awaiting=20 > conclusion, discussion or anything. The crux is what consitutes a=20 > compatibility breaking change (e.g. Graceful and non-harmful failure of=20 > an experimental implementation does not IMHO). And what is the list of=20 > these such changes? (Which I will turn to Dave's link for)=20 >=20 > 2. Yes, a disclosed design change. Again the critical thing is the=20 > comatibility (and the design logic). As far as I can tell there's just=20 > one fatal change (long to byte - for which I have not found any=20 > explanation). Otherwise and failures are graceful and happily compatible=20 > as said in the messages that were kindly linked by Vincent. I haven't=20 > had the opportunity to follow up the namespace specifics, but as Magnus=20 > originally pointed out, leaving 'example.com' was a goof - and thus=20 > obviously experimental FLUTE recievers are experienced at ignoring that=20 > part of the XML.=20 >=20 > For my part, I'll have a look at Dave's material in the near future and=20 > work with Jani to enhance the security provisions of FLUTE-SDP. Please=20 > point out if any of the other loose threads are pending a response from=20 > me.=20 >=20 > Cheers, Rod.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----- Original message -----=20 > > I agree with Magnus here. I hope that Rod can review Vincent's=20 > > historical summary of the issues and provide consensus or comments to=20 > > help us resolve this. =20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Additionally, here is a link to the message that summarizes the=20 > > backwards incompatibility issues identified by Dave Harrington's AD=20 > > review of FLUTE:=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg01434.html=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > best regards,=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Brian Adamson=20 > > brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > On Mar 31, 2011, at 11:01 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote:=20 > >=20 > > > Hi,=20 > > >=20 > > > I think this is a good example of what I expect in this discussion.=20 > I=20 > > > think that a number of the changes has good reasons to their=20 > changes=20 > > > and=20 > > > that we are not likely to reverse the WG documents text. For the > > > record=20 > > > I don't really remember the reasons for the designs in this schema=20 > and=20 > > > what the underlying 3GPP reasons are.=20 > > >=20 > > > I have no rapid need for an updated flute so I am willing to let > this=20 > > > discussion go on for a while. Especially letting people try to dig=20 > up=20 > > > any more motivations. But the fact is that the WG spent 5+ years in=20 > > > producing this document. There are reasons why it looks like it=20 > does.=20 > > > Reversing that decision at the last minute seems dangerous and=20 > likely=20 > > > to=20 > > > cause more issues than actually bumping the version number.=20 > > >=20 > > > Cheers=20 > > >=20 > > > Magnus=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Everybody,=20 > >=20 > > A follow-up to our long discussion during the meeting:=20 > >=20 > > 1- Concerning Flute version, the email that convinced=20 > > me of the necessity to move to version 2 is the=20 > > following one, from Mike, sent on Feb 7, 2011:=20 > >=20 > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg01511.html=20 > >=20 > > 2- Concerning XML extensibility, after searching a little=20 > > bit better in my archives, I finally found the initial reasons.=20 > > See the following 3 emails (from June 2005):=20 > >=20 > > * The initial email (from Rod) explaining why 3GPP proposed=20 > > another schema:=20 > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg00404.html=20 > >=20 > > * The answer from Magnus, with the 3GPP schema:=20 > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg00477.html=20 > >=20 > > * Finally Rod's promise (yes!!!) to include this schema:=20 > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg00482.html=20 > >=20 > > That's for the history. The question now is what do we want=20 > > to do?=20 > >=20 > > Vincent=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > > _______________________________________________=20 > > > Rmt mailing list=20 > > > Rmt@ietf.org=20 > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rmt=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > > --=20 > > >=20 > > > Magnus Westerlund=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM=20 > > >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287=20 > > > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079=20 > > > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com=20 > > >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________=20 > > > Rmt mailing list=20 > > > Rmt@ietf.org=20 > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rmt=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 >=20 > ATT00001..txt=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 ATT00001..txt=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00F0_01CBF9BF.D1EFBB10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
I think it makes no difference whether it is = byte-to-long or=20 long-to-byte.
If one=20 implementation sends a long value to an implementation that supports = only byte,=20 they do not interoperate.
Both ends need to agree or you lose=20 interoperability.
If the specs differ, then you need a mechanism to = determine=20 which set of rules are followed - a version#
 
dbh
 
 

From:=20 rmt-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rmt-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20 Rod.Walsh@nokia.com
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 1:30=20 PM
To: brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil;=20 magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
Cc: = rmt@ietf.org
Subject: Re:=20 [Rmt] About Flute-revised open points

Error in previous message: long to byte change in xml is fine. = (Other other=20 way round could have been fatal). Cheers, Rod.

----- Original = message=20 -----
> Thanks for Dave's link, I'll check this out next week. =
>=20
> Meanwhile...
>
> It seems like I am being = painted a=20 little like the outlier with last
> minute jitters. As Vincent = kindly=20 pointed out there are a few unresolved
> threads that have been = running=20 a long while. Mostly we simply haven't
> bothered to get them = resolved.=20 For each of those years. (And I must also
> personally = appologise for=20 not tracking LCT and ALC at each revision so
> as catch the = greater=20 than agreed impact on FLUTE before they went
> standards track. = Of=20 course we may well have had the same end result,
> just without = the=20 percenption of last minute issues). In spite of
> originally = agreeing=20 to maintain compatability where feasible, we're now
> stuck = with some=20 long term undiscolsed design decisions. Practically, we
> may = have to=20 embrace the unknown, but it's reasonable engineering to
> point = out=20 that our process has these black spots, whether communicated
> = as last=20 minute jitters or otherwise :)
>
> So as Magnus earlier=20 suggested, I feel we need to be pragmatic with what
> we have. = At the=20 same time I feel we need a bit of design explanation
> where it = exists=20 as the rmt mailing list has been a close approximation
> to = silent on=20 these issues for most for this bis/revised era. (E.g. I
> hope = I've=20 overlooked the discussion or notification of non-backwards
> = comatible=20 changes prior to an updated ID appearing for LCT and ALC, and
> = would=20 be grateful to hear that this is so).
>
> Meanwhile, to=20 Vincent's couple of points:
>
> 1. Yes, in RMT terms = that's a=20 recent email with responses awaiting
> conclusion, discussion = or=20 anything. The crux is what consitutes a
> compatibility = breaking change=20 (e.g. Graceful and non-harmful failure of
> an experimental=20 implementation does not IMHO). And what is the list of
> these = such=20 changes? (Which I will turn to Dave's link for)
>
> 2. = Yes, a=20 disclosed design change. Again the critical thing is the
> = comatibility=20 (and the design logic). As far as I can tell there's just
> one = fatal=20 change (long to byte - for which I have not found any
> = explanation).=20 Otherwise and failures are graceful and happily compatible
> as = said in=20 the messages that were kindly linked by Vincent. I haven't
> = had the=20 opportunity to follow up the namespace specifics, but as Magnus =
>=20 originally pointed out, leaving 'example.com' was a goof - and thus =
>=20 obviously experimental FLUTE recievers are experienced at ignoring = that=20
> part of the XML.
>
> For my part, I'll have a = look at=20 Dave's material in the near future and
> work with Jani to = enhance the=20 security provisions of FLUTE-SDP. Please
> point out if any of = the=20 other loose threads are pending a response from
> me.
> =
>=20 Cheers, Rod.
>
>
>
> ----- Original = message -----=20
> > I agree with Magnus here.        =   I=20 hope that Rod can review Vincent's
> > historical summary of = the=20 issues and provide consensus or comments to
> > help us = resolve=20 this.     
> >
> >
> >=20 Additionally, here is a link to the message that summarizes the =
> >=20 backwards incompatibility issues identified by Dave Harrington's AD =
>=20 > review of FLUTE:
> >
> >
> > h= ttp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg01434.html=20
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =
>=20 >
> >
> > best regards,
> >
> = >=20
> >
> > Brian Adamson
> > brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil= =20
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =
>=20 >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 31, 2011, at = 11:01 AM,=20 Magnus Westerlund wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> = >=20 >
> > > I think this is a good example of what I = expect in=20 this discussion.
> I
> > > think that a number of = the=20 changes has good reasons to their
> changes
> > > = and=20
> > > that we are not likely to reverse the WG documents = text.=20 For the
> > > record
> > > I don't really = remember=20 the reasons for the designs in this schema
> and
> > = >=20 what the underlying 3GPP reasons are.
> > >
> > = > I=20 have no rapid need for an updated flute so I am willing to let =
> this=20
> > > discussion go on for a while. Especially letting = people try=20 to dig
> up
> > > any more motivations. But the = fact is=20 that the WG spent 5+ years in
> > > producing this = document.=20 There are reasons why it looks like it
> does.
> > = >=20 Reversing that decision at the last minute seems dangerous and =
> likely=20
> > > to
> > > cause more issues than = actually=20 bumping the version number.
> > >
> > > = Cheers=20
> > >
> > > Magnus
> > > =
> >=20
> >
> > Everybody,
> >
> > A = follow-up=20 to our long discussion during the meeting:
> >
> > = 1-=20 Concerning Flute version, the email that convinced
> > me of = the=20 necessity to move to version 2 is the
> > following one, = from Mike,=20 sent on Feb 7, 2011:
> >
> > h= ttp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg01511.html=20
> >
> > 2- Concerning XML extensibility, after = searching a=20 little
> > bit better in my archives, I finally found the = initial=20 reasons.
> > See the following 3 emails (from June 2005): =
>=20 >
> > * The initial email (from Rod) explaining why 3GPP = proposed=20
> > another schema:
> > h= ttp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg00404.html=20
> >
> > * The answer from Magnus, with the 3GPP = schema:=20
> > h= ttp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg00477.html=20
> >
> > * Finally Rod's promise (yes!!!) to = include this=20 schema:
> > h= ttp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rmt/current/msg00482.html=20
> >
> > That's for the history. The question now = is what=20 do we want
> > to do?
> >
> > Vincent =
>=20 >
> >
> > >=20 _______________________________________________
> > > Rmt = mailing=20 list
> > > Rmt@ietf.org=20
> > > https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/rmt=20
> > >
> >
> >
> > > -- =
>=20 > >
> > > Magnus Westerlund
> > > =
>=20 > >
>=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- =
> > > Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM =
>=20 > >
>=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- =
> > > Ericsson AB          =    =20                     =  =20                     =   |=20 Phone  +46 10 7148287
> > > F=E4r=F6gatan 6  =    =20                     =  =20                     =  =20         | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> > > = SE-164=20 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson= .com=20
> > >
>=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- =
> > > _______________________________________________ =
>=20 > > Rmt mailing list
> > > Rmt@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/rmt=20
> > >
> > >
> >
> > =
>=20
> <Attachment>  ATT00001..txt
>
> =
>=20

<Attachment>  ATT00001..txt=20

------=_NextPart_000_00F0_01CBF9BF.D1EFBB10-- From Rod.Walsh@nokia.com Wed Apr 13 02:06:19 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmt@ietfc.amsl.com Delivered-To: rmt@ietfc.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6BE0E0684 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 02:06:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([208.66.40.236]) by localhost (ietfc.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ofk8-2e+1G5u for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 02:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-da01.nokia.com (smtp.nokia.com [147.243.128.24]) by ietfc.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9843FE0674 for ; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 02:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vaebh105.NOE.Nokia.com (vaebh105.europe.nokia.com [10.160.244.31]) by mgw-da01.nokia.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.4.3) with ESMTP id p3D95lkR016843; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:06:11 +0300 Received: from smtp.mgd.nokia.com ([65.54.30.8]) by vaebh105.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:06:09 +0300 Received: from NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.86]) by nok-am1mhub-04.mgdnok.nokia.com ([65.54.30.8]) with mapi; Wed, 13 Apr 2011 11:06:09 +0200 From: To: Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 11:04:50 +0200 Thread-Topic: [Rmt] About Flute-revised open points Thread-Index: Acv5ugZ5QQja8KdJTrG9civjfiCDKg== Message-ID: <97446846-9023-4B42-B660-E9F11C429801@nokia.com> References: <1302348585.4017.17.camel@Nokia-N900> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9744684690234B42B660E9F11C429801nokiacom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Apr 2011 09:06:09.0874 (UTC) FILETIME=[07B53320:01CBF9BA] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Cc: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com, rmt@ietf.org, brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil Subject: Re: [Rmt] About Flute-revised open points X-BeenThere: rmt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Reliable Multicast Transport List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:06:19 -0000 --_000_9744684690234B42B660E9F11C429801nokiacom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SW4gdGhlb3J5LCB3aXRoIHRoZSBsb25nIHRvIGJ5dGUgY2hhbmdlIHByb2JsZW0gbWF5IG9ubHkg b2NjdXIgd2l0aCBhbiBleHBlcmltZW50YWwgc2VuZGVyIHNlbmRpbmcgYSA+MjU1IHZhbHVlIHRv IGEgcmV2aXNlZCByZWNlaXZlciBwYXJzaW5nIG9ubHkgOGJpdCB2YWx1ZXMuIEhvd2V2ZXIsIHlv dSB3b3VsZCAoZ2VuZXJhbGx5KSBleHBlY3QgYSByZXZpc2VkIHJlY2VpdmVyIHRvIHJlamVjdCB0 aGUgWE1MIGJhc2VkIG9uIHRoZSBuYW1lc3BhY2UsIG9yIGVsc2UgdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB0aGF0IGl0 IGlzIG5vdCBhICdwdXJlIHJldmlzZWQnIHJlY2VpdmVyIGFuZCBhZGFwdC4NCg0KSW4gcHJhY3Rp 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