From nobody Tue Jul 1 10:07:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C2A1B2875 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2014 10:07:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.646 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.646 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JOy9UM8vHb0p for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2014 10:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (hhc-web3.hickoryhill-consulting.com [64.9.205.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 125911B2881 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2014 10:07:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=174.124.192.236; From: "Susan Hares" To: , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 13:07:34 -0400 Message-ID: <007801cf954e$f459d770$dd0d8650$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0079_01CF952D.6D4B92D0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHBgUmHYHShme0nYIe8MTweC4lI4punmELQ Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/_rdE_DZbrI_iD-SyTrSBWvQ4kDk Cc: 'Jonathan Hardwick' , adrian@olddog.co.uk, draft-ietf-sidr-cps@tools.ietf.org, db3546@att.com, ''Alia Atlas'' Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate review- draft-ietf-sidr-cps X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2014 17:07:39 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01CF952D.6D4B92D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen, Derrick, Karen: This is a routing directorate review which as three parts: a) status, b) technical review, and c) editorial review. Status: Ready for publication Technical Review: This Certification form covers all necessary items for a CPS who is part of RPKI. Editorial review: This document is well-written and readable for any network administrator or Security administrator. Tiny nit: p. 16, 3.2.2 second paragraph Old: Certificate that is used, accurately reflects New: Certificate this is used accurately reflects. Definitions nit: p. 26 OCSP and SCVP. Here, it may be nice to spell out OCSP And SCVP. I believe you mean: OCSP (Online Certificate Status Protocol), SCVP (Server-Based Certificate Validation Protocol). If these are incorrect expansions of OCSP and SCVP, you really need to put in expansions of the abbreviations. Sue Hares From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A [mailto:db3546@att.com] Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:09 PM To: shares@ndzh.com Cc: Jonathan Hardwick (Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com); 'Alia Atlas' (akatlas@gmail.com); adrian@olddog.co.uk Subject: Routing Directorate review- draft-ietf-sidr-cps Hi Sue, Can you do this review by July 1st? Thanks, Deborah ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01CF952D.6D4B92D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Stephen, Derrick, Karen:  

 

This is a routing directorate review which as three parts:  a) = status, b) technical review, and c) editorial review. =

 

Status: Ready for publication

Technical Review: This Certification form covers all necessary items = for a

CPS who is part of RPKI.

 

Editorial review:

This document is well-written and readable for any network = administrator or

Security administrator.

 

Tiny nit: p. 16, 3.2.2 second paragraph

 

Old: Certificate that is used, accurately = reflects

New: Certificate this is used accurately reflects. =

 

Definitions nit: p. 26 OCSP and SCVP.

 

Here, it may be nice to spell out OCSP And SCVP. I believe you mean: =

 

OCSP (Online Certificate Status Protocol),

SCVP (Server-Based Certificate Validation = Protocol).

 

If these are incorrect expansions of OCSP and SCVP, you really need = to put in expansions of the abbreviations.

 

Sue Hares

From:= = BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A [mailto:db3546@att.com]
Sent: Thursday, = June 19, 2014 5:09 PM
To: shares@ndzh.com
Cc: = Jonathan Hardwick (Jonathan.Hardwick@metaswitch.com); 'Alia Atlas' = (akatlas@gmail.com); adrian@olddog.co.uk
Subject: Routing = Directorate review- = draft-ietf-sidr-cps

 

Hi = Sue,

Can you do = this review by July 1st?

Thanks,

Deborah

 =

 =

------=_NextPart_000_0079_01CF952D.6D4B92D0-- From nobody Tue Jul 1 12:05:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F83B1A0414 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2014 11:52:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ltt2XTpS5fNz for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2014 11:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.bbn.com (smtp.bbn.com [128.33.1.81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD2C01B2854 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2014 11:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp89-089-218.bbn.com ([128.89.89.218]:54570) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtp (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1X23Am-000LUo-Q2; Tue, 01 Jul 2014 14:52:56 -0400 Message-ID: <53B30379.2090200@bbn.com> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2014 14:52:41 -0400 From: Stephen Kent User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Susan Hares , rtg-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-sidr-cps@tools.ietf.org References: <007801cf954e$f459d770$dd0d8650$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <007801cf954e$f459d770$dd0d8650$@ndzh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/J8oK1stXxnj5rzll-Q2PofXFvFE X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 01 Jul 2014 12:04:57 -0700 Cc: karen Seo , Steve Kent , db3546@att.com, ''Alia Atlas'' , 'Jonathan Hardwick' , adrian@olddog.co.uk Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate review- draft-ietf-sidr-cps X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2014 18:52:58 -0000 Sue, Thanks for the review. I'll ask Karen to make the edits you suggest. Sorry about not having defined OCSP and SCVP before use. Steve From nobody Tue Jul 1 12:50:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C2601B2869 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2014 12:50:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RX49TVofkwXw for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2014 12:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (hhc-web3.hickoryhill-consulting.com [64.9.205.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4941B27FB for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2014 12:50:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=174.124.192.236; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Stephen Kent'" , , References: <007801cf954e$f459d770$dd0d8650$@ndzh.com> <53B30379.2090200@bbn.com> In-Reply-To: <53B30379.2090200@bbn.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 15:50:15 -0400 Message-ID: <011101cf9565$ae7432c0$0b5c9840$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHBgUmHYHShme0nYIe8MTweC4lI4gHdoaMCAaK5QCGbi8W2IA== Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/dK8UYdSEypkGxpKRCTpMCfsAIOM Cc: 'Jonathan Hardwick' , 'karen Seo' , adrian@olddog.co.uk, db3546@att.com, ''Alia Atlas'' Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate review- draft-ietf-sidr-cps X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2014 19:50:19 -0000 Steve: The document was well-written which makes it a pleasure to read. Thank you for doing such a great job! Sue -----Original Message----- From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Kent Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 2:53 PM To: Susan Hares; rtg-dir@ietf.org; draft-ietf-sidr-cps@tools.ietf.org Cc: karen Seo; Steve Kent; db3546@att.com; ''Alia Atlas''; 'Jonathan Hardwick'; adrian@olddog.co.uk Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate review- draft-ietf-sidr-cps Sue, Thanks for the review. I'll ask Karen to make the edits you suggest. Sorry about not having defined OCSP and SCVP before use. Steve From nobody Fri Jul 4 01:22:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B8A1B2B83; Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:53:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.57 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.57 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.981, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ISTFv925PTj4; Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpeg.etri.re.kr (smtpeg1.etri.re.kr [129.254.27.141]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 239461B2B5B; Thu, 3 Jul 2014 17:52:58 -0700 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http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/5UwcYj_geRTgZCYqHRX3StuZcjo X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 04 Jul 2014 01:22:28 -0700 Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [mpls] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2014 00:53:06 -0000 --_000_5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28748144SMTP2etriinfo_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBMb3UsDQoNClRoYW5rcyBhIGxvdCBmb3IgeW91ciB2YWx1YWJsZSBjb21tZW50cy4NCg0K VGhlIGF1dGhvcnMgb2YgdGhpcyBkcmFmdCBoYXZlIGRpc2N1c3NlZCB5b3VyIGNvbW1lbnRzLCBh bmQgYXJlIHByb3Bvc2luZyBvdXIgcmVzb2x1dGlvbnMgdG8geW91ciBjb21tZW50cy4gUGxlYXNl LCBsZXQgdXMga25vdyBpZiB0aGUgcHJvcG9zYWwgaXMgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgdG8gYWRkcmVzcyB5 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([69.89.31.113]:46310 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1X3Rqv-0007Fu-34; Sat, 05 Jul 2014 09:26:13 -0600 Message-ID: <53B8190E.6080505@labn.net> Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2014 11:26:06 -0400 From: Lou Berger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeong Ryoo , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" References: <53A5ABED.9080408@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28748144@SMTP2.etri.info> In-Reply-To: <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28748144@SMTP2.etri.info> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020809060909070305050609" X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/iM7sXaTMBr4yrX1tu7-qRsEmGhE Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [mpls] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2014 15:26:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020809060909070305050609 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jeong/Authors, Thank you for the response. Most of the changes look good. I still have a few questions and open comments. Please see below. Lou On 7/3/2014 8:52 PM, Jeong Ryoo wrote: > Dear Lou, > > > > Thanks a lot for your valuable comments. > > > > The authors of this draft have discussed your comments, and are > proposing our resolutions to your comments. Please, let us know if the > proposal is appropriate to address your comments and concerns. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Authors of draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements draft > > > > ****** Beginning of Comment Resolution ****** > > > > - Document's usage of "committed" vs "allocated" resources: > > In section 1 the document introduces the notion that the > distinction between protection and restoration is based on when > resources are "committed". This difference from past > definition. RFC4427 and 6372 make the distinction that protection > and restoration differ based on when resources are *allocated* not > *committed*. To quote RFC 4427: > > ... > > > > [Authors] After reviewing RFCs 4427, 6372, 3945, 4426, and 4428, we > concluded that the distinction between protection and restoration > should be aligned with the exiting documents normatively referenced by > this document. Accordingly, the following 16 modifications will be > done in revision: > ... (deleted changes looked fine.) > > > > > > (4) Page 7, the first paragraph: > > OLD: > > the resources for the protection path are fully committed, > > NEW > > the resources for the protection path are fully dedicated, > > > Dedicated is also an ambiguous term, how about: OLD the resources for the protection path are fully committed, the protection path in the case of SMP consists of segments that are dedicated to the protection of the related working path and also NEW the resources for the protection path are fully allocated, the protection path in the case of SMP consists of segments that are allocated to the protection of the related working path and also > OLD: > > resources may be planned but would not be committed until … > > NEW: > > resources may be planned but would not be utilized until … > How about: OLD resources may be planned but would not be committed until requested NEW resources may be allocated but would not be utilized until requested ... > > > (7) The second paragraph of Section 4.1: > > OLD: > > When the reserved resources of the shared segments are committed to a > > particular protection path, there may not be sufficient resources > > available for an additional protection path. This then implies that > > if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a protection > > switch, the commitment of the resources may fail. In order to > > optimize the operation of the commitment and preparing for cases of > > multiple working paths failing, the commitment of the shared > > resources are be coordinated between the different working paths in > > the SMP network. > > NEW: > > When the reserved resources of the shared segments are utilized by a > > particular protection path, there may not be sufficient resources > > available for an additional protection path. This then implies that > > if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a protection > > switch, the resource utilization coordination may fail. The different > working paths in > > the SMP network are involved in the resource utilization coordination. > > . > This is fine, but I wonder why you are using "resource utilization" vs "protection switch"? (this is actually a bit of a general comment -- I the latter is an existing applicable term that would help readers how this document fits in to the technology space.) ... > > > > > > (12) Section 5.2, the third bullet item: > > OLD: > > If multiple protection paths of equal priority are requesting > > allocation of the shared resources, the resources SHOULD be > > committed on a first come first served basis. > > NEW: > > If multiple protection paths of equal priority are requesting > > the shared resources, the resources SHOULD be > > assigned on a first come first served basis. > why use a new term "assigned" vs the previous term "utilized"? If there is no distinction being made the same term should be used (either term is fine, but choose one). If there is a distinction, it should be made explicit (i.e., explained). > > > (13) Section 5.2, the fourth bullet item: > > OLD: > > If the protection resources are committed to a protection path, > > whose working path has a lower priority, resources required for > > the higher priority path SHALL be committed to the higher priority > > path. > > NEW: > > If the protection resources are utilized by a protection path, > > whose working path has a lower priority, resources required for > > the higher priority path SHALL be assigned to the higher priority > > path. > > > > > same comment. ... > > > > > - Section 2, 1st paragraph, last sentence. This sentence really defines > the scope/purpose of the document, i.e., "clarifies the instructions > to protocol designers producing solutions that satisfy the > requirements set out in this document." As such, I'd repeat this in > the abstract and move it to a more pronounced place in section 1 (or > 3). > > [Authors] We can add the following paragraph at the end of Section 1: > > “This document is intended to clarify the instructions to protocol > designers producing solutions that satisfy the requirements set out in > this document.” > > > > How about being even more explicit (in both the abstract and section 1): This document provides requirements for any mechanism that would be used to implement SMP for MPLS-TP data paths, in networks that delegate protection switch coordination to the data plane. > - General comment: fate-sharing for co-routed bidirectional LSP > protection: How is co-routing preserved for the reverse path in SMP? > I'd assumed the protection switch coordination protocol would be > required to trigger a switchover of the reverse LSP in the co-routed > case, but don't see this in the document. > > [Authors] Fate-sharing is not required by this document. Even in the > PSC linear protection switching, such as RFC 6378 (PSC) and RFC 7271 > (PSC in APS mode), fate-sharing is not required as unidirectional > switching is allowed. This document does not impose any restriction on > co-routing, either. > > > Both RFC4427 and 6372 mention this (Bi-directional recovery switching in the former). I think this document really needs to mention something on the topic. Given the 6372 a "MAY" level requirement is probably sufficient, but this should be confirmed with the WG. (I personally would like SHOULD as this seems to better match 6372's text "operator often requires...".) > > - In section 4 and 5.2 you reference 5712 and 3209 as defining > preemption terminology and behavior. I think 6372 is the right > reference here as it defines both in the context of survivability and > in dependent of control plane. > > [Authors] One concern is that RFC 6372 describes both soft and hard > preemptions in the context of extra traffic, which is not exactly the > case for SMP. > Then 6372 should be referenced and the difference should be described. Otherwise readers are likely to think you just used the wrong reference and that 6372's text applies. 6372 is after all titled "MPLS-TP Survivability Framework"... > > > > - In section 4.2 you say "Therefore, it is suggested that this be > carried out under the control of a dynamic control plane similar to > GMPLS [RFC3945]." perhaps you mean "based on GMPLS"? If so, great, > please make the correction. If not, I think the debate of which > control protocol is used for MPLS-TP is way beyond the scope of this > document. > > [Authors] Yes, we will make the correction. > okay > > > > > - Section 5.1, paragraph 1. Why are you using "SHOULD NOT" here? If > referring to solutions conformant with this document, then these are > informative statements, "and a non-control plane based SMP switchover > mechanism is used, the control plane SHALL NOT ...". If referring to > an operator's/user's choice of protection mechanism, I think the most > you can say is MAY. > > [Authors] The first case is the one we are aiming at. We will use > SHALL NOT. > > > > okay. > > - Section 5.2. "Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP > domain." As this is a requirement, what you mean by "tie-breaking > rules" should be defined directly or by reference. > > [Authors] The sentence can be rewritten as: > > OLD: > > Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP domain. > > NEW: > > In order to cover the situation where the first come first served > principle cannot resolve the contention among multiple equal priority > requests, i.e., when the requests occur simultaneously,, tie-breaking > rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP domain. > > > > > good enough (i.e., states that the definition of tie-breaking is FFS.) > > - Section 5.3. RFC6372 takes an approach where preemption notification > leverages the standard MPLS-TP OAM mechanisms, is there any reason to > do more / not just follow 6372? > > [Authors] We can add the following sentence at the end: > > “As described in [RFC6372], the event of preemption may be detected by > OAM and reported as a fault or a degradation of traffic delivery.” > okay. > > > - Section 5.7. There may be coordination required on soft-preemption as > well (depending on the cross-connects established during LSP > establishment) so coordinated switching should be supported > independent of preemption mode. > > [Authors] Yes, we will change the second paragraph from “SMP in > hard-preemption mode SHOULD …” to “SMP SHOULD …” and move the changed > paragraph above the first paragraph. > > > > > Nits: > > - Abstract: I don't recall the term "executive action" being used in any > earlier related/referenced RFCs. Rather than introduce a new (and > undefined) term, perhaps you can use an existing one, e.g., > "protection switch"? > > [Authors] Yes, the term will be changed as you suggested. > > > > great. > > - Section 1, paragraph 1. Do we really need another definition of > MPLS-TP to debate? I suggest just referencing your favorite MPLS-TP > document(s) and dropping the first four sentences. > > The last sentence also makes a subjective statement. Whether it is > critical or no is unnecessary. You can just say something like 6372 > provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP and is the foundation > for this document. > > [Authors] The proposed text for the paragraph 1 is: > > “The MPLS Transport Profile (MPLS-TP) is described in [RFC5921], > > and [RFC6372] provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP > > and is the foundation for this document.” > > > okay. > > > - Section 1, paragraph 3. Isn't the right reference 4427 not 4428? > Also drop the word linear, as it is an unnecessary qualifier and > 4427/4428 don't use it. > > [Authors] OK. > > > > > > > - Sections 3 (and to a lesser degree section 2) are really introductory > text. I'm unsure as to why they aren't part of section 1. > > [Authors] Section 3 was intended to present a reference model for SMP. > Some text of Section 2 is repeated in Section 1 as you suggested earlier. > > > We're in the domain of style, so is your call. > > > > > - Section 3.2 should have a reference for "existing control plane > solutions for SMP within MPLS". > > [Authors] [RFC4206] will be added as a reference > > > - Section 3.2 again uses the "executive action" term. > > [Authors] OK, the term will be changed. > > > > > - Section 4.1. You say "two operations simultaneously". Do you really > mean "simultaneously" or merely that they must both occur for > protection to be provided? (Same comment in section 5.1. > > [Authors] Both actions should occur at the same time, or as closely as > possible to provide fast protection. > > > What text change is planned? > > - Section 5.2. I suggest numbering the currently bulletted requirements > list. > > [Authors] OK, we will use numbers. > > > > > - Section 5.2: First paragraph and forth bullet last sentence. These > both basically cover the same topic (preemption) and actually say > slightly different things. I suggest combine into a single > requirement to ensure consistency and full coverage of the topic. > > [Authors] The first paragraph is for soft-preemption, while the fourth > bullet belongs to the requirements of hard-preemption. > Do you plan a text change? (the 1st paragraph should be a list item and soft-preemption is mentioned as a parenthetical , and the forth doesn't mention its scope as hard preemption.) > > - Section 5.2, req 5. How does this relate to section 5.5? Shouldn't > the topics related to timing be consolidated? > > [Authors] Yes, req 5 can be moved to Section 5.5. > > > okay. > > - Section 5.2: requirement 6 seems to be a subset of 7, so it should be > dropped. > > [Authors] Yes, it will be deleted. > > great. > > - Section 5.2, requirement 8. Isn't this a subset of 9? Why call out > just this one traffic treatment (sub) requirement? > > [Authors] Req. 9 will be deleted as it seems to require control plane > supports. > > > > - Section 5.3. s/MAY/will > > [Authors] OK. > > > > > - section 5.4: " When the working path detects.." detection is by the > node not the path. > > [Authors] Yes. We will simply say that “When the condition that > triggered the protection switching is cleared, …” > > > - Section 5.4, last sentence. This is only the 2nd time you imply that > the document covers requirements on a new protocol. I think this > point is currently too subtle in the document. (This point was also > made as a minor comment.) > > [Authors] As in other protection switching technologies, two modes of > operations (revertive and non-revertive) are required. > > > > > - section 5.6. RFC 6372 should be referenced > > [Authors] We will add “as described in [RFC6372]” to the ends of two > paragraphs for WTR timer and hold-off timer. > > > Okay. > ***** End of Comment resolution ***** > ... --------------020809060909070305050609 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jeong/Authors,
    Thank you for the response.  Most of the changes look good.  I still have a few questions and open comments.  Please see below.

Lou

On 7/3/2014 8:52 PM, Jeong Ryoo wrote:
Dear Lou,

 

Thanks a lot for your valuable comments.

 

The authors of this draft have discussed your comments, and are proposing our resolutions to your comments. Please, let us know if the proposal is appropriate to address your comments and concerns.

 

Best regards,

 

Authors of draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements draft

 

****** Beginning of Comment Resolution ******

 

- Document's usage of "committed" vs "allocated" resources:

In section 1 the document introduces the notion that the
distinction between protection and restoration is based on when
resources are "committed". This difference from past
definition. RFC4427 and 6372 make the distinction that protection
and restoration differ based on when resources are *allocated* not
*committed*. To quote RFC 4427:


...

 

[Authors] After reviewing RFCs 4427, 6372, 3945, 4426, and 4428, we concluded that the distinction between protection and restoration should be aligned with the exiting documents normatively referenced by this document. Accordingly, the following 16 modifications will be done in revision:

... (deleted changes looked fine.)

 

 

(4) Page 7, the first paragraph:

OLD:

the resources for the protection path are fully committed,

NEW

the resources for the protection path are fully dedicated,

 

Dedicated is also an ambiguous term, how about:
OLD
   the resources for the protection path are fully committed, the
   protection path in the case of SMP consists of segments that are
   dedicated to the protection of the related working path and also
NEW
   the resources for the protection path are fully allocated, the
   protection path in the case of SMP consists of segments that are
   allocated to the protection of the related working path and also


OLD:

resources may be planned but would not be committed until …

NEW:

resources may be planned but would not be utilized until …

How about:
OLD
   resources may be planned but would not be committed until requested
NEW

   resources may be allocated but would not be utilized until requested

...
 

(7) The second paragraph of Section 4.1:

OLD:

When the reserved resources of the shared segments are committed to a

particular protection path, there may not be sufficient resources

available for an additional protection path. This then implies that

if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a protection

switch, the commitment of the resources may fail. In order to

optimize the operation of the commitment and preparing for cases of

multiple working paths failing, the commitment of the shared

resources are be coordinated between the different working paths in

the SMP network.

NEW:

When the reserved resources of the shared segments are utilized by a

particular protection path, there may not be sufficient resources

available for an additional protection path. This then implies that

if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a protection

switch, the resource utilization coordination may fail. The different working paths in

the SMP network are involved in the resource utilization coordination. 

.


This is fine, but I wonder why you are using "resource utilization" vs "protection switch"? (this is actually a bit of a general comment -- I the latter is an existing applicable term that would help readers how this document fits in to the technology space.)

...

 

  

(12) Section 5.2, the third bullet item:

OLD:

If multiple protection paths of equal priority are requesting

allocation of the shared resources, the resources SHOULD be

committed on a first come first served basis.

NEW:

If multiple protection paths of equal priority are requesting

the shared resources, the resources SHOULD be

assigned on a first come first served basis.


why use a new term "assigned" vs the previous term "utilized"?  If there is no distinction being made the same term should be used (either term is fine, but choose one). If there is a distinction, it should be made explicit (i.e., explained).

 

(13) Section 5.2, the fourth bullet item:

OLD:

If the protection resources are committed to a protection path,

whose working path has a lower priority, resources required for

the higher priority path SHALL be committed to the higher priority

path.

NEW:

If the protection resources are utilized by a protection path,

whose working path has a lower priority, resources required for

the higher priority path SHALL be assigned to the higher priority

path.

 

 

same comment.

...
 

 

- Section 2, 1st paragraph, last sentence. This sentence really defines
the scope/purpose of the document, i.e., "clarifies the instructions
to protocol designers producing solutions that satisfy the
requirements set out in this document." As such, I'd repeat this in
the abstract and move it to a more pronounced place in section 1 (or
3).

[Authors] We can add the following paragraph at the end of Section 1:

“This document is intended to clarify the instructions to protocol designers producing solutions that satisfy the requirements set out in this document.”

 



How about being even more explicit (in both the abstract and section 1):
   This document provides requirements  for  any
   mechanism that would be used to implement SMP for MPLS-TP data paths,
   in networks that delegate protection switch coordination to the data
   plane.

- General comment: fate-sharing for co-routed bidirectional LSP
protection: How is co-routing preserved for the reverse path in SMP?
I'd assumed the protection switch coordination protocol would be
required to trigger a switchover of the reverse LSP in the co-routed
case, but don't see this in the document.

[Authors] Fate-sharing is not required by this document. Even in the PSC linear protection switching, such as RFC 6378 (PSC) and RFC 7271 (PSC in APS mode), fate-sharing is not required as unidirectional switching is allowed. This document does not impose any restriction on co-routing, either.

 


Both RFC4427 and 6372 mention this (Bi-directional recovery switching in the former). I think this document really needs to mention something on the topic.  Given the 6372 a "MAY" level requirement is probably sufficient, but this should be confirmed with the WG.  (I personally would like SHOULD as this seems to better match 6372's text "operator often requires...".)


- In section 4 and 5.2 you reference 5712 and 3209 as defining
preemption terminology and behavior. I think 6372 is the right
reference here as it defines both in the context of survivability and
in dependent of control plane.

[Authors] One concern is that RFC 6372 describes both soft and hard preemptions in the context of extra traffic, which is not exactly the case for SMP.


Then 6372 should be referenced and the difference should be described.  Otherwise readers are likely to think you just used the wrong reference and that 6372's text applies.  6372 is after all titled "MPLS-TP Survivability Framework"...

 


- In section 4.2 you say "Therefore, it is suggested that this be
carried out under the control of a dynamic control plane similar to
GMPLS [RFC3945]." perhaps you mean "based on GMPLS"? If so, great,
please make the correction. If not, I think the debate of which
control protocol is used for MPLS-TP is way beyond the scope of this
document.

[Authors] Yes, we will make the correction.

okay

 


- Section 5.1, paragraph 1. Why are you using "SHOULD NOT" here? If
referring to solutions conformant with this document, then these are
informative statements, "and a non-control plane based SMP switchover
mechanism is used, the control plane SHALL NOT ...". If referring to
an operator's/user's choice of protection mechanism, I think the most
you can say is MAY.

[Authors] The first case is the one we are aiming at. We will use SHALL NOT.

 


okay.

- Section 5.2. "Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP
domain." As this is a requirement, what you mean by "tie-breaking
rules" should be defined directly or by reference.

[Authors] The sentence can be rewritten as:

OLD:

Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP domain.

NEW:

In order to cover the situation where the first come first served principle cannot resolve the contention among multiple equal priority requests, i.e., when the requests occur simultaneously,, tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP domain.

 

 


good enough (i.e., states that the definition of tie-breaking is FFS.)


- Section 5.3. RFC6372 takes an approach where preemption notification
leverages the standard MPLS-TP OAM mechanisms, is there any reason to
do more / not just follow 6372?

[Authors] We can add the following sentence at the end:

“As described in [RFC6372], the event of preemption may be detected by OAM and reported as a fault or a degradation of traffic delivery.” 


okay.


- Section 5.7. There may be coordination required on soft-preemption as
well (depending on the cross-connects established during LSP
establishment) so coordinated switching should be supported
independent of preemption mode.

[Authors] Yes, we will change the second paragraph from “SMP in hard-preemption mode SHOULD …” to “SMP SHOULD …” and move the changed paragraph above the first paragraph.

 


Nits:

- Abstract: I don't recall the term "executive action" being used in any
earlier related/referenced RFCs. Rather than introduce a new (and
undefined) term, perhaps you can use an existing one, e.g.,
"protection switch"?

[Authors] Yes, the term will be changed as you suggested.

 


great.

- Section 1, paragraph 1. Do we really need another definition of
MPLS-TP to debate? I suggest just referencing your favorite MPLS-TP
document(s) and dropping the first four sentences.

The last sentence also makes a subjective statement. Whether it is
critical or no is unnecessary. You can just say something like 6372
provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP and is the foundation
for this document.

[Authors] The proposed text for the paragraph 1 is:

“The MPLS Transport Profile (MPLS-TP) is described in [RFC5921],

and [RFC6372] provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP

and is the foundation for this document.”

 

okay.


- Section 1, paragraph 3. Isn't the right reference 4427 not 4428?
Also drop the word linear, as it is an unnecessary qualifier and
4427/4428 don't use it.

[Authors] OK.

 

 


- Sections 3 (and to a lesser degree section 2) are really introductory
text. I'm unsure as to why they aren't part of section 1.

[Authors] Section 3 was intended to present a reference model for SMP. Some text of Section 2 is repeated in Section 1 as you suggested earlier.

 

We're in the domain of style, so is your call.

 


- Section 3.2 should have a reference for "existing control plane
solutions for SMP within MPLS".

[Authors] [RFC4206] will be added as a reference


- Section 3.2 again uses the "executive action" term.

[Authors] OK, the term will be changed.

 


- Section 4.1. You say "two operations simultaneously". Do you really
mean "simultaneously" or merely that they must both occur for
protection to be provided? (Same comment in section 5.1.

[Authors] Both actions should occur at the same time, or as closely as possible to provide fast protection.

 

What text change is planned?


- Section 5.2. I suggest numbering the currently bulletted requirements
list.

[Authors] OK, we will use numbers.

 


- Section 5.2: First paragraph and forth bullet last sentence. These
both basically cover the same topic (preemption) and actually say
slightly different things. I suggest combine into a single
requirement to ensure consistency and full coverage of the topic.

[Authors] The first paragraph is for soft-preemption, while the fourth bullet belongs to the requirements of hard-preemption.


Do you plan a text change?  (the 1st paragraph should be a list item and soft-preemption is mentioned as a parenthetical , and the forth doesn't mention its scope as hard preemption.)


- Section 5.2, req 5. How does this relate to section 5.5? Shouldn't
the topics related to timing be consolidated?

[Authors] Yes, req 5 can be moved to Section 5.5.

 

okay.


- Section 5.2: requirement 6 seems to be a subset of 7, so it should be
dropped.

[Authors] Yes, it will be deleted.


great.

- Section 5.2, requirement 8. Isn't this a subset of 9? Why call out
just this one traffic treatment (sub) requirement?

[Authors] Req. 9 will be deleted as it seems to require control plane supports.



- Section 5.3. s/MAY/will

[Authors] OK.

 


- section 5.4: " When the working path detects.." detection is by the
node not the path.

[Authors] Yes. We will simply say that “When the condition that triggered the protection switching is cleared, …”


- Section 5.4, last sentence. This is only the 2nd time you imply that
the document covers requirements on a new protocol. I think this
point is currently too subtle in the document. (This point was also
made as a minor comment.)

[Authors] As in other protection switching technologies, two modes of operations (revertive and non-revertive) are required.

 


- section 5.6. RFC 6372 should be referenced

[Authors] We will add “as described in [RFC6372]” to the ends of two paragraphs for WTR timer and hold-off timer.

 

Okay.

***** End of Comment resolution *****

...

--------------020809060909070305050609-- From nobody Sat Jul 5 15:33:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B327D1B27F9; Sat, 5 Jul 2014 12:49:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.182 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.182 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.981, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_91=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Navhswq0g-ZE; Sat, 5 Jul 2014 12:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x231.google.com (mail-wg0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7224B1B27F7; Sat, 5 Jul 2014 12:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f49.google.com with SMTP id y10so2772477wgg.8 for ; Sat, 05 Jul 2014 12:49:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=d2OPxjwHtG2nCvWcyHhr+qTWIP46UyzAk5W3F89ES4k=; b=LQisED0lEZhVVg5BMcsRjEv50lP4htBUSx7dk/xlfThlWEeopUaCGTFmn3ARlHoTCz AlV0NfIStfYlitNII437yKIj1+sg5UVYxGNCuCCmjqWqEcoFIN2sTK9o5bMj72lgtVfb FqjH39583r8HrFLzKSX4cDk0QE1MPPtubfWIc3NEeyeYea/vAGPQNm6bMoVNIU/yS3bM LjR5kxiAc4/rIOxEW/ZmjC5TeyPcWpPnFPQVnN2vVFLJ6yuXc6FN1qaHp+faRwmHIfD/ mhbxQAZamqJsCAXf1uo85iVEKqyO22KpOxZLhwBs/pBhYIw5KRosAwmvxUanzh0tCHC5 rc6A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.86.7 with SMTP id l7mr12607785wiz.55.1404589750937; Sat, 05 Jul 2014 12:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.191.163 with HTTP; Sat, 5 Jul 2014 12:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.191.163 with HTTP; Sat, 5 Jul 2014 12:49:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28748144@SMTP2.etri.info> References: <53A5ABED.9080408@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28748144@SMTP2.etri.info> Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 22:49:10 +0300 Message-ID: From: Yaacov Weingarten To: Jeong Ryoo Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04428e02290ddc04fd778926 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/VoTJ4ywJUKU9_oU3mVc0ohgaX34 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 05 Jul 2014 15:33:09 -0700 Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org" , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [mpls] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2014 19:49:18 -0000 --f46d04428e02290ddc04fd778926 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lou, hi I would like to address two of your comments, in your follow-up message, since I am the source of the change in terminology. Regarding the two occurences of "assigned" in place of "utilized" - when I read the proposed changes,as discussed amongst the authors, I felt that in those two instances the use of "utilized" could lead to some ambiguity. If we state that "resources SHOULD be utilized on a first come first served basis" this could be interpreted (IMO) as referring to the packet level, rather than utilized by a specific path, such that packets from different paths could be interspersed along the shared segments. Therefore,I suggested that or this context it would be better to use a word that meant that the first-come first served basis was at the level of assigning (or allocating) the resources rather than utilizing them. Hope this clarifies this point. I am certain that I speak for the other authors in saying that I am open to other suggestions. BR, yaacov On Jul 4, 2014 3:53 AM, "Jeong Ryoo" wrote: > Dear Lou, > > > > Thanks a lot for your valuable comments. > > > > The authors of this draft have discussed your comments, and are proposing > our resolutions to your comments. Please, let us know if the proposal is > appropriate to address your comments and concerns. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Authors of draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements draft > > > > ****** Beginning of Comment Resolution ****** > > > > - Document's usage of "committed" vs "allocated" resources: > > In section 1 the document introduces the notion that the > distinction between protection and restoration is based on when > resources are "committed". This difference from past > definition. RFC4427 and 6372 make the distinction that protection > and restoration differ based on when resources are *allocated* not > *committed*. To quote RFC 4427: > > The distinction between protection and restoration is made based > on the resource allocation done during the recovery LSP/span > establishment. The distinction between different types of > restoration is made based on the level of route computation, > signaling, and resource allocation during the restoration > LSP/span establishment. > > This difference also leads to come confused statements in the > document as well as ambiguity in the text, i.e. confusion by the > reader. The term "committed" is not tightly defined in this > document (or earlier work) and is used differently than how > "allocated" has been used. An example of this can be found in > Section 3.1 which states: > > However, the commitment of the resources, at least for the > shared segments, will only be finalized when the protection > path is actually activated. Therefore, for the purists - > regarding the terminology - SMP lies somewhere between > protection and restoration. > > Both sentences are problematic. In the first, commitment seems to > cover a "protection switch" would "connect" the protection path > but not the earlier "allocation" of resources. (Quoted terms are > used in earlier RFCs.) The second conclusion is based on the new > distinction of protection vs. restoration and is unnecessary with > the existing distinction. > > This issue exists in multiple places in the document where > "committed" is used and I'd recommend that each should be replaced > with terminology used in the referenced RFCs, i.e., "allocation", > "connection", "cross-connect", "protection switch(over)", ... > > Note I'm *not* highlighting all cases where there are problems in the > document related to this issue. There are a couple of places in the > document where I think it's possible that once this terminology > ambiguity is corrected that I'll have other substantive comments. > > > > [Authors] After reviewing RFCs 4427, 6372, 3945, 4426, and 4428, we > concluded that the distinction between protection and restoration should = be > aligned with the exiting documents normatively referenced by this documen= t. > Accordingly, the following 16 modifications will be done in revision: > > > > (1) Section 1, the third paragraph > > OLD: > > As pointed out > > in [RFC6372] and [RFC4428], applying 1+1 linear protection requires > > that resources are committed for use by both the working and > > protection paths. Applying 1:1 protection requires that the same > > resources are committed, but allows the resources of the protection > > path to be utilized for pre-emptible extra traffic. > > NEW: > > As pointed out > > in [RFC6372] and [RFC4428], applying 1+1 protection requires > > that resources are allocated for use by both the working and > > protection paths. Applying 1:1 protection requires that the same > > resources are allocated, but allows the resources of the protection > > path to be utilized for pre-emptible extra traffic. > > > > (2) The whole text in Section 3.1 will be replaced with: > > [RFC6372], based upon the definitions in [RFC4427], differentiates betwee= n > "protection" and "restoration" dependent upon the dynamism of the resourc= e > allocation. The same distinction is used in [RFC3945], [RFC4426], and > [RFC4428]. This document also uses the same distinction between protectio= n > and restoration as stated in [RFC6372]. > > > > (3) In page 6, > > OLD: > > The use of preemption in the network is typically a business or > > policy decision such that when protection resources are contended, > > priority can be applied to determine to which parties the protection > > resources are committed. > > NEW: > > The use of preemption in the network is typically a business or > > policy decision such that when protection resources are contended, > > priority can be applied to determine which parties utilize the protection > > resources. > > > > (4) Page 7, the first paragraph: > > OLD: > > the resources for the protection path are fully committed, > > NEW > > the resources for the protection path are fully dedicated, > > > > OLD: > > resources may be planned but would not be committed until =E2=80=A6 > > NEW: > > resources may be planned but would not be utilized until =E2=80=A6 > > > > (5) In the second paragraph in page 7, > > OLD: > > "Hard Preemption" requires the programming of selectors at the ingress of > each shared segment to specify which backup path has the highest priority > when committing protection resources, the others being preempted. > > NEW > > "Hard Preemption" requires the programming of selectors at the ingress of > each shared segment to specify the priorities of backup paths, so that > traffic of lower priority paths can be preempted. > > > > (6) The first paragraph of Section 4.1: > > OLD: > > =E2=80=A6 and commit the associated resources. The commitment of resource= s > > is dependent upon =E2=80=A6 > > NEW: > > =E2=80=A6 and coordinate the utilization of the associated shared resourc= es. > > The resource utilization coordination is dependent upon =E2=80=A6 > > > > (7) The second paragraph of Section 4.1: > > OLD: > > When the reserved resources of the shared segments are committed to a > > particular protection path, there may not be sufficient resources > > available for an additional protection path. This then implies that > > if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a protection > > switch, the commitment of the resources may fail. In order to > > optimize the operation of the commitment and preparing for cases of > > multiple working paths failing, the commitment of the shared > > resources are be coordinated between the different working paths in > > the SMP network. > > NEW: > > When the reserved resources of the shared segments are utilized by a > > particular protection path, there may not be sufficient resources > > available for an additional protection path. This then implies that > > if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a protection > > switch, the resource utilization coordination may fail. The different > working paths in > > the SMP network are involved in the resource utilization coordination. > > . > > > > (8) Section 5.1, > > OLD: > > =E2=80=A6 and commit the associated resources. > > NEW > > =E2=80=A6 and coordinate the utilization of the associated shared resourc= es. > > > > (9) In Section 5.1, > > OLD: > > In the case of multiple working paths failing, the commitment of the > > shared resources SHALL be coordinated between the different working > > paths in the SMP network. > > NEW: > > In the case of multiple working paths failing, the shared resource > utilization > > coordination SHALL be between the different working > > paths in the SMP network. > > > > (10) Section 5.1.1. > > OLD: > > =E2=80=A6 because they already have been committed to the protection of, = for > example, a higher priority working path. > > NEW: > > =E2=80=A6 because they already have been utilized for the protection of, = for > example, a higher priority working path. > > > > (11) Section 5.2, the second bullet item: > > OLD: > > Resources of the shared segments SHALL be committed to the > > protection path =E2=80=A6 > > NEW: > > Resources of the shared segments SHALL be utilized by the > > protection path =E2=80=A6 > > > > (12) Section 5.2, the third bullet item: > > OLD: > > If multiple protection paths of equal priority are requesting > > allocation of the shared resources, the resources SHOULD be > > committed on a first come first served basis. > > NEW: > > If multiple protection paths of equal priority are requesting > > the shared resources, the resources SHOULD be > > assigned on a first come first served basis. > > > > (13) Section 5.2, the fourth bullet item: > > OLD: > > If the protection resources are committed to a protection path, > > whose working path has a lower priority, resources required for > > the higher priority path SHALL be committed to the higher priority > > path. > > NEW: > > If the protection resources are utilized by a protection path, > > whose working path has a lower priority, resources required for > > the higher priority path SHALL be assigned to the higher priority > > path. > > > > > > (14) Section 5.2. the seventh bullet item > > OLD: > > Once resources of shared segments have been successfully committed > > to a protection path, =E2=80=A6 > > NEW: > > Once resources of shared segments have been successfully utilized > > by a protection path, =E2=80=A6 > > > > (15) Section 5.3, the first paragraph, > > OLD: > > =E2=80=A6 request the commitment of protection resources. If the necessar= y > > shared resources are unavailable to be committed to the protection > > path, the endpoints =E2=80=A6 > > > > NEW: > > =E2=80=A6 request the coordination of the shared resource utilization. If= the > necessary > > shared resources are unavailable, the endpoints =E2=80=A6 > > > > (16) Section 5.3, the second paragraph, > > OLD: > > Similarly, if preemption is supported and the resources currently > > committed for a particular working path are =E2=80=A6 > > NEW: > > Similarly, if preemption is supported and the resources currently > > utilized by a particular working path are =E2=80=A6 > > > > > > - Section 2, 1st paragraph, last sentence. This sentence really defines > the scope/purpose of the document, i.e., "clarifies the instructions > to protocol designers producing solutions that satisfy the > requirements set out in this document." As such, I'd repeat this in > the abstract and move it to a more pronounced place in section 1 (or > 3). > > [Authors] We can add the following paragraph at the end of Section 1: > > =E2=80=9CThis document is intended to clarify the instructions to protoco= l > designers producing solutions that satisfy the requirements set out in th= is > document.=E2=80=9D > > > > > - General comment: fate-sharing for co-routed bidirectional LSP > protection: How is co-routing preserved for the reverse path in SMP? > I'd assumed the protection switch coordination protocol would be > required to trigger a switchover of the reverse LSP in the co-routed > case, but don't see this in the document. > > [Authors] Fate-sharing is not required by this document. Even in the PSC > linear protection switching, such as RFC 6378 (PSC) and RFC 7271 (PSC in > APS mode), fate-sharing is not required as unidirectional switching is > allowed. This document does not impose any restriction on co-routing, > either. > > > > > - In section 4 and 5.2 you reference 5712 and 3209 as defining > preemption terminology and behavior. I think 6372 is the right > reference here as it defines both in the context of survivability and > in dependent of control plane. > > [Authors] One concern is that RFC 6372 describes both soft and hard > preemptions in the context of extra traffic, which is not exactly the cas= e > for SMP. > > > > > - In section 4.2 you say "Therefore, it is suggested that this be > carried out under the control of a dynamic control plane similar to > GMPLS [RFC3945]." perhaps you mean "based on GMPLS"? If so, great, > please make the correction. If not, I think the debate of which > control protocol is used for MPLS-TP is way beyond the scope of this > document. > > [Authors] Yes, we will make the correction. > > > > > - Section 5.1, paragraph 1. Why are you using "SHOULD NOT" here? If > referring to solutions conformant with this document, then these are > informative statements, "and a non-control plane based SMP switchover > mechanism is used, the control plane SHALL NOT ...". If referring to > an operator's/user's choice of protection mechanism, I think the most > you can say is MAY. > > [Authors] The first case is the one we are aiming at. We will use SHALL > NOT. > > > > > - Section 5.2. "Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP > domain." As this is a requirement, what you mean by "tie-breaking > rules" should be defined directly or by reference. > > [Authors] The sentence can be rewritten as: > > OLD: > > Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP domain. > > NEW: > > In order to cover the situation where the first come first served > principle cannot resolve the contention among multiple equal priority > requests, i.e., when the requests occur simultaneously,, tie-breaking > rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP domain. > > > > > > > - Section 5.3. RFC6372 takes an approach where preemption notification > leverages the standard MPLS-TP OAM mechanisms, is there any reason to > do more / not just follow 6372? > > [Authors] We can add the following sentence at the end: > > =E2=80=9CAs described in [RFC6372], the event of preemption may be detect= ed by OAM > and reported as a fault or a degradation of traffic delivery.=E2=80=9D > > > - Section 5.7. There may be coordination required on soft-preemption as > well (depending on the cross-connects established during LSP > establishment) so coordinated switching should be supported > independent of preemption mode. > > [Authors] Yes, we will change the second paragraph from =E2=80=9CSMP in > hard-preemption mode SHOULD =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9CSMP SHOULD =E2= =80=A6=E2=80=9D and move the changed > paragraph above the first paragraph. > > > > > Nits: > > - Abstract: I don't recall the term "executive action" being used in any > earlier related/referenced RFCs. Rather than introduce a new (and > undefined) term, perhaps you can use an existing one, e.g., > "protection switch"? > > [Authors] Yes, the term will be changed as you suggested. > > > > > - Section 1, paragraph 1. Do we really need another definition of > MPLS-TP to debate? I suggest just referencing your favorite MPLS-TP > document(s) and dropping the first four sentences. > > The last sentence also makes a subjective statement. Whether it is > critical or no is unnecessary. You can just say something like 6372 > provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP and is the foundation > for this document. > > [Authors] The proposed text for the paragraph 1 is: > > =E2=80=9CThe MPLS Transport Profile (MPLS-TP) is described in [RFC5921], > > and [RFC6372] provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP > > and is the foundation for this document.=E2=80=9D > > > > > - Section 1, paragraph 3. Isn't the right reference 4427 not 4428? > Also drop the word linear, as it is an unnecessary qualifier and > 4427/4428 don't use it. > > [Authors] OK. > > > > > > > - Sections 3 (and to a lesser degree section 2) are really introductory > text. I'm unsure as to why they aren't part of section 1. > > [Authors] Section 3 was intended to present a reference model for SMP. > Some text of Section 2 is repeated in Section 1 as you suggested earlier. > > > > > > > - Section 3.2 should have a reference for "existing control plane > solutions for SMP within MPLS". > > [Authors] [RFC4206] will be added as a reference > > > - Section 3.2 again uses the "executive action" term. > > [Authors] OK, the term will be changed. > > > > > - Section 4.1. You say "two operations simultaneously". Do you really > mean "simultaneously" or merely that they must both occur for > protection to be provided? (Same comment in section 5.1. > > [Authors] Both actions should occur at the same time, or as closely as > possible to provide fast protection. > > > > > - Section 5.2. I suggest numbering the currently bulletted requirements > list. > > [Authors] OK, we will use numbers. > > > > > - Section 5.2: First paragraph and forth bullet last sentence. These > both basically cover the same topic (preemption) and actually say > slightly different things. I suggest combine into a single > requirement to ensure consistency and full coverage of the topic. > > [Authors] The first paragraph is for soft-preemption, while the fourth > bullet belongs to the requirements of hard-preemption. > > > - Section 5.2, req 5. How does this relate to section 5.5? Shouldn't > the topics related to timing be consolidated? > > [Authors] Yes, req 5 can be moved to Section 5.5. > > > > > - Section 5.2: requirement 6 seems to be a subset of 7, so it should be > dropped. > > [Authors] Yes, it will be deleted. > > > - Section 5.2, requirement 8. Isn't this a subset of 9? Why call out > just this one traffic treatment (sub) requirement? > > [Authors] Req. 9 will be deleted as it seems to require control plane > supports. > > > > - Section 5.3. s/MAY/will > > [Authors] OK. > > > > > - section 5.4: " When the working path detects.." detection is by the > node not the path. > > [Authors] Yes. We will simply say that =E2=80=9CWhen the condition that > triggered the protection switching is cleared, =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D > > > - Section 5.4, last sentence. This is only the 2nd time you imply that > the document covers requirements on a new protocol. I think this > point is currently too subtle in the document. (This point was also > made as a minor comment.) > > [Authors] As in other protection switching technologies, two modes of > operations (revertive and non-revertive) are required. > > > > > - section 5.6. RFC 6372 should be referenced > > [Authors] We will add =E2=80=9Cas described in [RFC6372]=E2=80=9D to the = ends of two > paragraphs for WTR timer and hold-off timer. > > > > ***** End of Comment resolution ***** > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *=EB=B3=B4=EB=82=B8 =EC=82=AC=EB=9E=8C : *"Lou Berger" > *=EB=B3=B4=EB=82=B8 =EB=82=A0=EC=A7=9C : *2014-06-22 01:00:48 ( +09:00 ) > *=EB=B0=9B=EB=8A=94 =EC=82=AC=EB=9E=8C : *rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org > *=EC=B0=B8=EC=A1=B0 : *rtg-dir@ietf.org , > draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org < > draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org>, mpls@ietf.org < > mpls@ietf.org> > *=EC=A0=9C=EB=AA=A9 : *[mpls] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirem= ents-06.txt > > > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this > draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or > routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG > review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is > to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the > Routing Directorate, please see > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it > would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF > Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through > discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt > Reviewer: Lou Berger > Review Date: June 21 2014 > IETF LC End Date: 2014-06-23 > Intended Status: Informational > > Summary: > I have some minor concerns about this document that I think > should (must, actually) be resolved before publication. > > Comments: > > I think the document is well written and, other than a couple of > terminology related issues, easily understood. The document does > have a number of terminology and technical issues which should be > readily resolved prior to publication. > > Major Issues: > > Major issues are the type of concerns that will result in the > document being blocked until they are resolved. The Routing ADs will > become involved. Please include all of the major issues you have > found. Give as much context information as possible (e.g., section > numbers, paragraph counts). If you find no major issues, please > write: "No major issues found." > > - No major issues found. In particular, I expect all issues can be > resolved without AD intervention. Some of the minor issues, if not > resolved will be escalated to the AD/major issue category. > > Minor Issues: > > Minor issues are concerns about clarity or technical accuracy that > should be discussed and resolved before publication, but which would > normally be resolved between the authors and the reviewers. Please > include all of the minor issues you have found. Give as much context > information as possible (e.g., section numbers, paragraph counts). > If you find no minor issues, please write: "No minor issues found." > > - Document's usage of "committed" vs "allocated" resources: > > In section 1 the document introduces the notion that the > distinction between protection and restoration is based on when > resources are "committed". This difference from past > definition. RFC4427 and 6372 make the distinction that protection > and restoration differ based on when resources are *allocated* not > *committed*. To quote RFC 4427: > > The distinction between protection and restoration is made based > on the resource allocation done during the recovery LSP/span > establishment. The distinction between different types of > restoration is made based on the level of route computation, > signaling, and resource allocation during the restoration > LSP/span establishment. > > This difference also leads to come confused statements in the > document as well as ambiguity in the text, i.e. confusion by the > reader. The term "committed" is not tightly defined in this > document (or earlier work) and is used differently than how > "allocated" has been used. An example of this can be found in > Section 3.1 which states: > > However, the commitment of the resources, at least for the > shared segments, will only be finalized when the protection > path is actually activated. Therefore, for the purists - > regarding the terminology - SMP lies somewhere between > protection and restoration. > > Both sentences are problematic. In the first, commitment seems to > cover a "protection switch" would "connect" the protection path > but not the earlier "allocation" of resources. (Quoted terms are > used in earlier RFCs.) The second conclusion is based on the new > distinction of protection vs. restoration and is unnecessary with > the existing distinction. > > This issue exists in multiple places in the document where > "committed" is used and I'd recommend that each should be replaced > with terminology used in the referenced RFCs, i.e., "allocation", > "connection", "cross-connect", "protection switch(over)", ... > > Note I'm *not* highlighting all cases where there are problems in the > document related to this issue. There are a couple of places in the > document where I think it's possible that once this terminology > ambiguity is corrected that I'll have other substantive comments. > > - Section 2, 1st paragraph, last sentence. This sentence really defines > the scope/purpose of the document, i.e., "clarifies the instructions > to protocol designers producing solutions that satisfy the > requirements set out in this document." As such, I'd repeat this in > the abstract and move it to a more pronounced place in section 1 (or > 3). > > - General comment: fate-sharing for co-routed bidirectional LSP > protection: How is co-routing preserved for the reverse path in SMP? > I'd assumed the protection switch coordination protocol would be > required to trigger a switchover of the reverse LSP in the co-routed > case, but don't see this in the document. > > - In section 4 and 5.2 you reference 5712 and 3209 as defining > preemption terminology and behavior. I think 6372 is the right > reference here as it defines both in the context of survivability and > in dependent of control plane. > > - In section 4.2 you say "Therefore, it is suggested that this be > carried out under the control of a dynamic control plane similar to > GMPLS [RFC3945]." perhaps you mean "based on GMPLS"? If so, great, > please make the correction. If not, I think the debate of which > control protocol is used for MPLS-TP is way beyond the scope of this > document. > > - Section 5.1, paragraph 1. Why are you using "SHOULD NOT" here? If > referring to solutions conformant with this document, then these are > informative statements, "and a non-control plane based SMP switchover > mechanism is used, the control plane SHALL NOT ...". If referring to > an operator's/user's choice of protection mechanism, I think the most > you can say is MAY. > > - Section 5.2. "Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP > domain." As this is a requirement, what you mean by "tie-breaking > rules" should be defined directly or by reference. > > - Section 5.3. RFC6372 takes an approach where preemption notification > leverages the standard MPLS-TP OAM mechanisms, is there any reason to > do more / not just follow 6372? > > - Section 5.7. There may be coordination required on soft-preemption as > well (depending on the cross-connects established during LSP > establishment) so coordinated switching should be supported > independent of preemption mode. > > Nits: > > - Abstract: I don't recall the term "executive action" being used in any > earlier related/referenced RFCs. Rather than introduce a new (and > undefined) term, perhaps you can use an existing one, e.g., > "protection switch"? > > - Section 1, paragraph 1. Do we really need another definition of > MPLS-TP to debate? I suggest just referencing your favorite MPLS-TP > document(s) and dropping the first four sentences. > > The last sentence also makes a subjective statement. Whether it is > critical or no is unnecessary. You can just say something like 6372 > provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP and is the foundation > for this document. > > - Section 1, paragraph 3. Isn't the right reference 4427 not 4428? > Also drop the word linear, as it is an unnecessary qualifier and > 4427/4428 don't use it. > > - Sections 3 (and to a lesser degree section 2) are really introductory > text. I'm unsure as to why they aren't part of section 1. > > - Section 3.2 should have a reference for "existing control plane > solutions for SMP within MPLS". > > - Section 3.2 again uses the "executive action" term. > > - Section 4.1. You say "two operations simultaneously". Do you really > mean "simultaneously" or merely that they must both occur for > protection to be provided? (Same comment in section 5.1. > > - Section 5.2. I suggest numbering the currently bulletted requirements > list. > > - Section 5.2: First paragraph and forth bullet last sentence. These > both basically cover the same topic (preemption) and actually say > slightly different things. I suggest combine into a single > requirement to ensure consistency and full coverage of the topic. > > - Section 5.2, req 5. How does this relate to section 5.5? Shouldn't > the topics related to timing be consolidated? > > - Section 5.2: requirement 6 seems to be a subset of 7, so it should be > dropped. > > - Section 5.2, requirement 8. Isn't this a subset of 9? Why call out > just this one traffic treatment (sub) requirement? > > - Section 5.3. s/MAY/will > > - section 5.4: " When the working path detects.." detection is by the > node not the path. > > - Section 5.4, last sentence. This is only the 2nd time you imply that > the document covers requirements on a new protocol. I think this > point is currently too subtle in the document. (This point was also > made as a minor comment.) > > - section 5.6. RFC 6372 should be referenced > > > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list > mpls@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls > > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list > mpls@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls > > --f46d04428e02290ddc04fd778926 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Lou, hi
I would like to address two of your comments, in your follow-up message, s= ince I am the source of the change in terminology.

Regarding the two occurences of "assigned" in place of "u= tilized" - when I read the proposed changes,as discussed amongst the a= uthors, I felt that in those two instances the use of "utilized" = could lead to some ambiguity.

If we state that "resources SHOULD be utilized on a first come firs= t served basis" this could be interpreted (IMO) as referring to the pa= cket level, rather than=C2=A0 utilized by a specific path, such that packet= s from different paths could be interspersed along the shared segments. The= refore,I suggested that or this context it would be better to use a word th= at meant that the first-come first served basis was at the level of assigni= ng (or allocating) the resources rather than utilizing them.

Hope this clarifies this point. I am certain that I speak for the other = authors in=C2=A0 saying that I am open to other suggestions.

BR,
yaacov

On Jul 4, 2014 3:53 AM, "Jeong Ryoo" &= lt;ryoo@etri.re.kr> wrote:
<= font face=3D"=EB=A7=91=EC=9D=80 =EA=B3=A0=EB=94=95">Dear Lou,=

=C2=A0

Thanks a lot for your valuable comments.<= /p>

=C2=A0

The authors of this draft have discussed your comments,= and are proposing our resolutions to your comments. Please, let us know if= the proposal is appropriate to address your comments and concerns.<= /span>

=C2=A0

Best regards,

=C2=A0

Authors of draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements draft

=C2=A0

*= ***** Beginning of Comment Resolution ******

=C2=A0

-= Document's usage of "committed" vs "allocated" res= ources:

In section 1 the document introduces the notion that the
distinction between protection and restoration is based on when
resources are "committed". This difference from past
definition. RFC4427 and 6372 make the distinction that protection
and restoration differ based on when resources are *allocated* not
*committed*. To quote RFC 4427:

The distinction between protection and restoration is made based
on the resource allocation done during the recovery LSP/span
establishment. The distinction between different types of
restoration is made based on the level of route computation,
signaling, and resource allocation during the restoration
LSP/span establishment.

This difference also leads to come confused statements in the
document as well as ambiguity in the text, i.e. confusion by the
reader. The term "committed" is not tightly defined in this
document (or earlier work) and is used differently than how
"allocated" has been used. An example of this can be found in
Section 3.1 which states:

However, the commitment of the resources, at least for the
shared segments, will only be finalized when the protection
path is actually activated. Therefore, for the purists -
regarding the terminology - SMP lies somewhere between
protection and restoration.

Both sentences are problematic. In the first, commitment seems to
cover a "protection switch" would "connect" the protect= ion path
but not the earlier "allocation" of resources. (Quoted terms are<= br> used in earlier RFCs.) The second conclusion is based on the new
distinction of protection vs. restoration and is unnecessary with
the existing distinction.

This issue exists in multiple places in the document where
"committed" is used and I'd recommend that each should be rep= laced
with terminology used in the referenced RFCs, i.e., "allocation",=
"connection", "cross-connect", "protection switch(= over)", ...

Note I'm *not* highlighting all cases where there are problems in the document related to this issue. There are a couple of places in the
document where I think it's possible that once this terminology
ambiguity is corrected that I'll have other substantive comments.

=C2=A0

[Authors] After reviewing RFCs 4427, 6372, 3945, 4426, = and 4428, we concluded that the distinction between protection and restorat= ion should be aligned with the exiting documents normatively referenced by this document. Accordingly, the following 16 modifications will be done= in revision:

=C2=A0

(1) Section 1, the third paragraph

OLD:

As pointed out

in [RFC6372] and [RFC4428], applying 1+1 linear protect= ion requires

that resources are committed for use by both the workin= g and

protection paths. Applying 1:1 protection requires that= the same

resources are committed, but allows the resources of th= e protection

path to be utilized for pre-emptible extra traffic.

NEW:

As pointed out

in [RFC6372] and [RFC4428], applying 1+1 protection req= uires

that resources are allocated for use by both the workin= g and

protection paths. Applying 1:1 protection requires that= the same

resources are allocated, but allows the resources of th= e protection

path to be utilized for pre-emptible extra traffic.

=C2=A0

(2) The whole text in Section 3.1 will be replaced with= :

[RFC6372], based upon the definitions in [RFC4427], dif= ferentiates between "protection" and "restoration" depe= ndent upon the dynamism of the resource allocation. The same distinction is= used in [RFC3945], [RFC4426], and [RFC4428]. This document also uses the same distinction bet= ween protection and restoration as stated in [RFC6372].

=C2=A0

(3) In page 6,

OLD:

The use of preemption in the network is typically a bus= iness or

policy decision such that when protection resources are= contended,

priority can be applied to determine to which parties t= he protection

resources are committed.

NEW:

The use of preemption in the network is typically a bus= iness or

policy decision such that when protection resources are= contended,

priority can be applied to determine which parties util= ize the protection

resources.

=C2=A0

(4) Page 7, the first paragraph:

OLD:

the resources for the protection path are fully committ= ed,

NEW

the resources for the protection path are fully dedicat= ed,

=C2=A0

OLD:

resources may be planned but would not be committed unt= il =E2=80=A6

NEW:

resources may be planned but would not be utilized unti= l =E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

(5) In the second paragraph in page 7,

OLD:

"Hard Preemption" requires the programming of= selectors at the ingress of each shared segment to specify which backup pa= th has the highest priority when committing protection resources, the other= s being preempted.

NEW

"Hard Preemption" requires the programming of= selectors at the ingress of each shared segment to specify the priorities = of backup paths, so that traffic of lower priority paths can be preempted.

=C2=A0

(6) The first paragraph of Section 4.1:

OLD:

=E2=80=A6 and commit the associated resources. The comm= itment of resources

is dependent upon =E2=80=A6

NEW:

=E2=80=A6 and coordinat= e the utilization of the associated shared resources.

The resource utilization= coordination is dependent upon =E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

(7) The second paragraph of Section 4.1:<= /p>

OLD:

When the reserved resources of the shared segments are = committed to a

particular protection path, there may not be sufficient= resources

available for an additional protection path. This then = implies that

if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a pr= otection

switch, the commitment of the resources may fail. In or= der to

optimize the operation of the commitment and preparing = for cases of

multiple working paths failing, the commitment of the s= hared

resources are be coordinated between the different work= ing paths in

the SMP network.

NEW:

When the reserved resources of the shared segments are = utilized by a

particular protection path, there may not be sufficient= resources

available for an additional protection path. This then = implies that

if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a pr= otection

switch, the resource utilization coordination may fail.= The different working paths in

the SMP network are involved in the resource utilizatio= n coordination.=C2=A0

.

=C2=A0

(8) Section 5.1,

OLD:

=E2=80=A6 and commit the associated resources.

NEW

=E2=80=A6 and coordinat= e the utilization of the associated shared resources.

=C2=A0

(9) In Section 5.1,

OLD:

In the case of multiple working paths failing, the comm= itment of the

shared resources SHALL be coordinated between the diffe= rent working

paths in the SMP network.

NEW:

In the case of multiple working paths failing, the shar= ed resource utilization

coordination SHALL be between the different working

paths in the SMP network.

=C2=A0

(10) Section 5.1.1.

OLD:

=E2=80=A6 because they already have been committed to t= he protection of, for example, a higher priority working path.

NEW:

=E2=80=A6 because they already have been utilized for t= he protection of, for example, a higher priority working path.

=C2=A0

(11) Section 5.2, the second bullet item:=

OLD:

Resources of the shared segments SHALL be committed to = the

protection path =E2=80=A6

NEW:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

Resources of the shared segments SHALL be utilized by t= he

protection path =E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

(12) Section 5.2, the third bullet item:<= /p>

OLD:

If multiple protection paths of equal priority are requ= esting

allocation of the shared resources, the resources SHOUL= D be

committed on a first come first served basis.

NEW:

If multiple protection paths of equal priority are requ= esting

the shared resources, the resources SHOULD be

assigned on a first come first served basis.

=C2=A0

(13) Section 5.2, the fourth bullet item:=

OLD:

If the protection resources are committed to a protecti= on path,

whose working path has a lower priority, resources requ= ired for

the higher priority path SHALL be committed to the high= er priority

path.

NEW:

If the protection resources are utilized by a protectio= n path,

whose working path has a lower priority, resources requ= ired for

the higher priority path SHALL be assigned to the highe= r priority

path.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

(14) Section 5.2. the seventh bullet item=

OLD:

Once resources of shared segments have been successfull= y committed

to a protection path, =E2=80=A6

NEW:

Once resources of shared segments have been successfull= y utilized

by a protection path, =E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

(15) Section 5.3, the first paragraph,

OLD:

=E2=80=A6 request the commitment of protection resource= s. If the necessary

shared resources are unavailable to be committed to the= protection

path, the endpoints =E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

NEW:

=E2=80=A6 request the coordination of the shared resour= ce utilization. If the necessary

shared resources are unavailable, the endpoints =E2=80= =A6

=C2=A0

(16) Section 5.3, the second paragraph,

OLD:

Similarly, if preemption is supported and the resources= currently

committed for a particular working path are =E2=80=A6

NEW:

Similarly, if preemption is supported and the resources= currently

utilized by a particular working path are =E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

-= Section 2, 1st paragraph, last sentence. This sentence really defines
the scope/purpose of the document, i.e., "clarifies the instructions to protocol designers producing solutions that satisfy the
requirements set out in this document." As such, I'd repeat this i= n
the abstract and move it to a more pronounced place in section 1 (or
3).

[Authors] We can add the following paragraph at the end= of Section 1:

=E2=80=9CThis document is intended to clarify the instr= uctions to protocol designers producing solutions that satisfy the requirem= ents set out in this document.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0


- General comment: fat= e-sharing for co-routed bidirectional LSP
protection: How is co-routing preserved for the reverse path in SMP?
I'd assumed the protection switch coordination protocol would be
required to trigger a switchover of the reverse LSP in the co-routed
case, but don't see this in the document.

[Authors] Fate-sharing is not required by this document= . Even in the PSC linear protection switching, such as RFC 6378 (PSC) and R= FC 7271 (PSC in APS mode), fate-sharing is not required as unidirectional switching is allowed. This document does not impose any restriction on co-= routing, either.

=C2=A0


- In section 4 and 5.2= you reference 5712 and 3209 as defining
preemption terminology and behavior. I think 6372 is the right
reference here as it defines both in the context of survivability and
in dependent of control plane.

[Authors] One concern is that RFC 6372 describes both s= oft and hard preemptions in the context of extra traffic, which is not exac= tly the case for SMP.

=C2=A0


- In section 4.2 you s= ay "Therefore, it is suggested that this be
carried out under the control of a dynamic control plane similar to
GMPLS [RFC3945]." perhaps you mean "based on GMPLS"? If so, = great,
please make the correction. If not, I think the debate of which
control protocol is used for MPLS-TP is way beyond the scope of this
document.

[Authors] Yes, we will make the correction.

=C2=A0


- Section 5.1, paragra= ph 1. Why are you using "SHOULD NOT" here? If
referring to solutions conformant with this document, then these are
informative statements, "and a non-control plane based SMP switchover<= br> mechanism is used, the control plane SHALL NOT ...". If referring to an operator's/user's choice of protection mechanism, I think the mo= st
you can say is MAY.

[Authors] The first case is the one we are aiming at. W= e will use SHALL NOT.

=C2=A0


- Section 5.2. "T= ie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP
domain." As this is a requirement, what you mean by "tie-breaking=
rules" should be defined directly or by reference.

[Authors] The sentence can be rewritten as:

OLD:

Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP = domain.

NEW:

In order to cover the=C2=A0situation where=C2=A0the fir= st come first served principle cannot resolve the contention among multiple= equal priority requests, i.e., when the requests occur simultaneously,, tie-brea= king rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP domain.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


- Section 5.3. RFC6372= takes an approach where preemption notification
leverages the standard MPLS-TP OAM mechanisms, is there any reason to
do more / not just follow 6372?

[Authors] We can add the following sentence at the end:

=E2=80=9CAs described in [RFC6372], the event of preemp= tion may be detected by OAM and reported as a fault or a degradation of tra= ffic delivery.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0


- Section 5.7. There m= ay be coordination required on soft-preemption as
well (depending on the cross-connects established during LSP
establishment) so coordinated switching should be supported
independent of preemption mode.

[Authors] Yes, we will change the second paragraph from= =E2=80=9CSMP in hard-preemption mode SHOULD =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D to =E2=80= =9CSMP SHOULD =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D and move the changed paragraph above the f= irst paragraph.

=C2=A0


Nits:

- Abstract: I don't recall the term "executive action" being = used in any
earlier related/referenced RFCs. Rather than introduce a new (and
undefined) term, perhaps you can use an existing one, e.g.,
"protection switch"?

[Authors] Yes, the term will be changed as you suggeste= d.

=C2=A0


- Section 1, paragraph= 1. Do we really need another definition of
MPLS-TP to debate? I suggest just referencing your favorite MPLS-TP
document(s) and dropping the first four sentences.

The last sentence also makes a subjective statement. Whether it is
critical or no is unnecessary. You can just say something like 6372
provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP and is the foundation
for this document.

[Authors] The proposed text for the paragraph 1 is:

=E2=80=9CThe MPLS Transport Profile (MPLS-TP) is descri= bed in [RFC5921],

and [RFC6372] provides a survivability framework for MP= LS-TP

and is the foundation for this document.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0


- Section 1, paragraph= 3. Isn't the right reference 4427 not 4428?
Also drop the word linear, as it is an unnecessary qualifier and
4427/4428 don't use it.

[Authors] OK.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


- Sections 3 (and to a= lesser degree section 2) are really introductory
text. I'm unsure as to why they aren't part of section 1.

[Authors] Section 3 was intended to present a reference= model for SMP. Some text of Section 2 is repeated in Section 1 as you sugg= ested earlier.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


- Section 3.2 should h= ave a reference for "existing control plane
solutions for SMP within MPLS".

[Authors] [RFC4206] will be added as a reference=


- Section 3.2 again us= es the "executive action" term.

[Authors] OK, the term will be changed.

=C2=A0


- Section 4.1. You say= "two operations simultaneously". Do you really
mean "simultaneously" or merely that they must both occur for
protection to be provided? (Same comment in section 5.1.

[Authors] Both actions should occur at the same time, o= r as closely as possible to provide fast protection.

=C2=A0


- Section 5.2. I sugge= st numbering the currently bulletted requirements
list.

[Authors] OK, we will use numbers.

=C2=A0


- Section 5.2: First p= aragraph and forth bullet last sentence. These
both basically cover the same topic (preemption) and actually say
slightly different things. I suggest combine into a single
requirement to ensure consistency and full coverage of the topic.

[Authors] The first paragraph is for soft-preemption, w= hile the fourth bullet belongs to the requirements of hard-preemption.


- Section 5.2, req 5. = How does this relate to section 5.5? Shouldn't
the topics related to timing be consolidated?

[Authors] Yes, req 5 can be moved to Section 5.5.

=C2=A0


- Section 5.2: require= ment 6 seems to be a subset of 7, so it should be
dropped.

[Authors] Yes, it will be deleted.


- Section 5.2, require= ment 8. Isn't this a subset of 9? Why call out
just this one traffic treatment (sub) requirement?

[Authors] Req. 9 will be deleted as it seems to require= control plane supports.



- Section 5.3. s/MAY/w= ill

[Authors] OK.

=C2=A0


- section 5.4: " = When the working path detects.." detection is by the
node not the path.

[Authors] Yes. We will simply say that =E2=80=9CWhen th= e condition that triggered the protection switching is cleared, =E2=80=A6= =E2=80=9D


- Section 5.4, last se= ntence. This is only the 2nd time you imply that
the document covers requirements on a new protocol. I think this
point is currently too subtle in the document. (This point was also
made as a minor comment.)

[Authors] As in other protection switching technologies= , two modes of operations (revertive and non-revertive) are required.

=C2=A0


- section 5.6. RFC 637= 2 should be referenced

[Authors] We will add =E2=80=9Cas described in [RFC6372= ]=E2=80=9D to the ends of two paragraphs for WTR timer and hold-off timer.

=C2=A0

*= **** End of Comment resolution *****

=C2=A0
=C2=A0




=EB=B3=B4=EB=82=B8 =EC=82=AC=EB=9E=8C : "Lou Berger" <<= a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=3D"_blank">lberger@labn.net&g= t;
=EB=B3=B4=EB=82=B8 =EB=82=A0=EC=A7=9C : 2014-06-22 01:00:48 ( +09:00= )
=EB=B0=9B=EB=8A=94 =EC=82=AC=EB=9E=8C : rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org <rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org&= gt;
=EC=B0=B8=EC=A1=B0 : rtg-dir@ietf.org <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-mpls-smp-req= uirements.all@tools.ietf.org <draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requ= irements.all@tools.ietf.org>, mpls@ietf.org <mpls@ietf.org>
=EC=A0=9C=EB=AA=A9 : [mpls] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requi= rements-06.txt


Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this
draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or
routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG
review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is
to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF
Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt
Reviewer: Lou Berger
Review Date: June 21 2014
IETF LC End Date: 2014-06-23
Intended Status: Informational

Summary:
I have some minor concerns about this document that I think
should (must, actually) be resolved before publication.

Comments:

I think the document is well written and, other than a couple of
terminology related issues, easily understood. The document does
have a number of terminology and technical issues which should be
readily resolved prior to publication.

Major Issues:

Major issues are the type of concerns that will result in the
document being blocked until they are resolved. The Routing ADs will
become involved. Please include all of the major issues you have
found. Give as much context information as possible (e.g., section
numbers, paragraph counts). If you find no major issues, please
write: "No major issues found."

- No major issues found. In particular, I expect all issues can be
resolved without AD intervention. Some of the minor issues, if not
resolved will be escalated to the AD/major issue category.

Minor Issues:

Minor issues are concerns about clarity or technical accuracy that
should be discussed and resolved before publication, but which would
normally be resolved between the authors and the reviewers. Please
include all of the minor issues you have found. Give as much context
information as possible (e.g., section numbers, paragraph counts).
If you find no minor issues, please write: "No minor issues found.&quo= t;

- Document's usage of "committed" vs "allocated" re= sources:

In section 1 the document introduces the notion that the
distinction between protection and restoration is based on when
resources are "committed". This difference from past
definition. RFC4427 and 6372 make the distinction that protection
and restoration differ based on when resources are *allocated* not
*committed*. To quote RFC 4427:

The distinction between protection and restoration is made based
on the resource allocation done during the recovery LSP/span
establishment. The distinction between different types of
restoration is made based on the level of route computation,
signaling, and resource allocation during the restoration
LSP/span establishment.

This difference also leads to come confused statements in the
document as well as ambiguity in the text, i.e. confusion by the
reader. The term "committed" is not tightly defined in this
document (or earlier work) and is used differently than how
"allocated" has been used. An example of this can be found in
Section 3.1 which states:

However, the commitment of the resources, at least for the
shared segments, will only be finalized when the protection
path is actually activated. Therefore, for the purists -
regarding the terminology - SMP lies somewhere between
protection and restoration.

Both sentences are problematic. In the first, commitment seems to
cover a "protection switch" would "connect" the protect= ion path
but not the earlier "allocation" of resources. (Quoted terms are<= br> used in earlier RFCs.) The second conclusion is based on the new
distinction of protection vs. restoration and is unnecessary with
the existing distinction.

This issue exists in multiple places in the document where
"committed" is used and I'd recommend that each should be rep= laced
with terminology used in the referenced RFCs, i.e., "allocation",=
"connection", "cross-connect", "protection switch(= over)", ...

Note I'm *not* highlighting all cases where there are problems in the document related to this issue. There are a couple of places in the
document where I think it's possible that once this terminology
ambiguity is corrected that I'll have other substantive comments.

- Section 2, 1st paragraph, last sentence. This sentence really defines
the scope/purpose of the document, i.e., "clarifies the instructions to protocol designers producing solutions that satisfy the
requirements set out in this document." As such, I'd repeat this i= n
the abstract and move it to a more pronounced place in section 1 (or
3).

- General comment: fate-sharing for co-routed bidirectional LSP
protection: How is co-routing preserved for the reverse path in SMP?
I'd assumed the protection switch coordination protocol would be
required to trigger a switchover of the reverse LSP in the co-routed
case, but don't see this in the document.

- In section 4 and 5.2 you reference 5712 and 3209 as defining
preemption terminology and behavior. I think 6372 is the right
reference here as it defines both in the context of survivability and
in dependent of control plane.

- In section 4.2 you say "Therefore, it is suggested that this be
carried out under the control of a dynamic control plane similar to
GMPLS [RFC3945]." perhaps you mean "based on GMPLS"? If so, = great,
please make the correction. If not, I think the debate of which
control protocol is used for MPLS-TP is way beyond the scope of this
document.

- Section 5.1, paragraph 1. Why are you using "SHOULD NOT" here? = If
referring to solutions conformant with this document, then these are
informative statements, "and a non-control plane based SMP switchover<= br> mechanism is used, the control plane SHALL NOT ...". If referring to an operator's/user's choice of protection mechanism, I think the mo= st
you can say is MAY.

- Section 5.2. "Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP=
domain." As this is a requirement, what you mean by "tie-breaking=
rules" should be defined directly or by reference.

- Section 5.3. RFC6372 takes an approach where preemption notification
leverages the standard MPLS-TP OAM mechanisms, is there any reason to
do more / not just follow 6372?

- Section 5.7. There may be coordination required on soft-preemption as
well (depending on the cross-connects established during LSP
establishment) so coordinated switching should be supported
independent of preemption mode.

Nits:

- Abstract: I don't recall the term "executive action" being = used in any
earlier related/referenced RFCs. Rather than introduce a new (and
undefined) term, perhaps you can use an existing one, e.g.,
"protection switch"?

- Section 1, paragraph 1. Do we really need another definition of
MPLS-TP to debate? I suggest just referencing your favorite MPLS-TP
document(s) and dropping the first four sentences.

The last sentence also makes a subjective statement. Whether it is
critical or no is unnecessary. You can just say something like 6372
provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP and is the foundation
for this document.

- Section 1, paragraph 3. Isn't the right reference 4427 not 4428?
Also drop the word linear, as it is an unnecessary qualifier and
4427/4428 don't use it.

- Sections 3 (and to a lesser degree section 2) are really introductory
text. I'm unsure as to why they aren't part of section 1.

- Section 3.2 should have a reference for "existing control plane
solutions for SMP within MPLS".

- Section 3.2 again uses the "executive action" term.

- Section 4.1. You say "two operations simultaneously". Do you re= ally
mean "simultaneously" or merely that they must both occur for
protection to be provided? (Same comment in section 5.1.

- Section 5.2. I suggest numbering the currently bulletted requirements
list.

- Section 5.2: First paragraph and forth bullet last sentence. These
both basically cover the same topic (preemption) and actually say
slightly different things. I suggest combine into a single
requirement to ensure consistency and full coverage of the topic.

- Section 5.2, req 5. How does this relate to section 5.5? Shouldn't the topics related to timing be consolidated?

- Section 5.2: requirement 6 seems to be a subset of 7, so it should be
dropped.

- Section 5.2, requirement 8. Isn't this a subset of 9? Why call out just this one traffic treatment (sub) requirement?

- Section 5.3. s/MAY/will

- section 5.4: " When the working path detects.." detection is by= the
node not the path.

- Section 5.4, last sentence. This is only the 2nd time you imply that
the document covers requirements on a new protocol. I think this
point is currently too subtle in the document. (This point was also
made as a minor comment.)

- section 5.6. RFC 6372 should be referenced


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--f46d04428e02290ddc04fd778926-- From nobody Mon Jul 7 12:59:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 997831B28B5 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2014 12:56:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HqyNCPC8JNKx for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2014 12:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdptpa-oedge-vip.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.228]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277D71B28A8 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2014 12:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [65.190.6.125] ([65.190.6.125:49128] helo=[10.0.1.6]) by cdptpa-oedge02 (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.5.0.35861 r(Momo-dev:tip)) with ESMTP id 79/B8-20336-28BFAB35; Mon, 07 Jul 2014 19:56:51 +0000 From: Acee Lindem Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_42A09A2B-0BAB-4F4C-8CE1-98D07A0D4D70" Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 15:56:49 -0400 Message-Id: <1C413D11-4390-4027-8635-A88D215689C5@lindem.com> To: Ladislav Lhotka , netmod@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) X-RR-Connecting-IP: 107.14.168.130:25 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/rwYH_9L0g9-6_FZRQEwjjwG6UNk X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 07 Jul 2014 12:59:19 -0700 Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org Subject: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Comments on draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg-15 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2014 19:56:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_42A09A2B-0BAB-4F4C-8CE1-98D07A0D4D70 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Hello, =20 I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. = The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related = drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and = sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide = assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing = Directorate, please see = http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir =20 Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it = would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF = Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through = discussion or by updating the draft. =20 Document: draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg-15 Reviewer: Acee Lindem Review Date: July 8th, 2014 IETF LC End Date: TBD=20 Intended Status: Proposed Standard=20 Summary: There some issues with the model in the document that need to = be addressed prior to publication of this draft.=20 Fundamental Question: Going forward, how will this YANG data model = relate to the I2RS RIB information model proposed in = draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-03.txt?=20 Major Issues: =20 Section 4 & 5.4: These sections appear to restrict a routing = protocol instance to exactly one RIB for each address family that the = routing protocol instance supports. RFC 4915, et al, support a single = routing protocol instance which may populate multiple RIBs per address = family.=20 Section 7: What are the backup next-hops? I guess these are = IP-FRR next-hops that are installed by the same source protocol as the = primaries? If so, do you have to restrict the forwarding paradigm to not = use any backup next-hops as long as primary next-hops are accessible? = This would imply that forwarding plane would need to do a fast rehash of = the primaries and only use after all primaries are expired. There are = other lower overhead forwarding paradigms in use.=20 Missing: There is no concept of administrative distance (Cisco, et = al) or route preference (gated and Juniper). In my opinion, this is very = important since it determine which route is active when the same route = is available from multiple protocols.=20 =20 Missing: How does one get the best route for a given protocol = (which is not necessarily the active route)? Should each protocol have a = local RIB as part of its model? I notice that this is not included in = the RIP example in Appendix C. Would that need to be part of the run = state for the protocol?=20 Minor issues:=20 Section 9: Should there be checking to assure the router = advertisement mtu does not exceed the ipv6 MTU from RFC 7277?=20 Questions: I guess the list routing protocol instances is independent in = routing-protocols is independent of definition of the routing protocol = itself? Or, would it be expected that the YANG model for the routing = protocol itself would be here? If the former, wouldn=92t this = configuration be better grouped with the routing protocol themselves?=20 In section 9, the placement of the router advertisement = configuration seems rather arbitrary and I would have expected it to be = grouped with the other interface configuration in RFC 7277. I guess = placement here is the consensus of the netmod WG.=20 Thanks, Acee=20 =20= --Apple-Mail=_42A09A2B-0BAB-4F4C-8CE1-98D07A0D4D70 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Hello,
 
I have been selected as = the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate = seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass = through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special = request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the = Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please = see http://trac.= tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
 
Although these comments = are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you = could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that = you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by = updating the draft.
 
Document: draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg-15
Reviewer: Acee = Lindem
Review = Date: July 8th, 2014
IETF LC End Date: TBD 
Intended Status: Proposed = Standard 

Summary: There some issues with the model in the document that = need to be addressed prior to publication of this draft. 

Fundamental Question: = Going forward, how will this YANG data model relate to the I2RS RIB = information model proposed in = draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-03.txt? 

Major Issues: =  

       Section 4 & 5.4:  These = sections appear to restrict a routing protocol instance to exactly one = RIB for each address family that the routing protocol instance supports. = RFC 4915, et al, support a single routing protocol instance which may = populate multiple RIBs per address family. 

      =  Section 7: What are the backup next-hops? I guess these are IP-FRR = next-hops that are installed by the same source protocol as the = primaries? If so, do you have to restrict the forwarding paradigm to not = use any backup next-hops as long as primary next-hops are accessible? = This would imply that forwarding plane would need to do a fast rehash of = the primaries and only use after all primaries are expired. There are = other lower overhead forwarding paradigms in use. 

      = Missing: There is no concept of administrative distance (Cisco, et al) = or route preference (gated and Juniper). In my opinion, this is very = important since it determine which route is active when the same route = is available from multiple protocols. 
      =                
      = Missing: How does one get the best route for a given protocol (which is = not necessarily the active route)? Should each protocol have a local RIB = as part of its model? I notice that this is not included in the RIP = example in Appendix C. Would that need to be part of the run state for = the protocol? 

Minor issues: 

     Section 9: Should there be = checking to assure the router advertisement mtu does not exceed the ipv6 = MTU from RFC 7277? 


Questions:
        I guess the list routing = protocol instances is independent in routing-protocols is independent of = definition of the routing protocol itself? Or, would it be expected that = the YANG model for the routing protocol itself would be here? If the = former, wouldn=92t this configuration be better grouped with the routing = protocol themselves? 

       In section 9, the placement = of the router advertisement configuration seems rather arbitrary and I = would have expected it to be grouped with the other interface = configuration in RFC 7277. I guess placement here is the consensus of = the netmod WG. 


Thanks,
Acee 

                 =   
= --Apple-Mail=_42A09A2B-0BAB-4F4C-8CE1-98D07A0D4D70-- From nobody Tue Jul 8 03:56:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908DD1B27F6; Tue, 8 Jul 2014 03:35:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z4e4Zh7yCDdb; Tue, 8 Jul 2014 03:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trail.lhotka.name (trail.lhotka.name [77.48.224.143]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B02C1B2A65; Tue, 8 Jul 2014 03:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0BF75407DB; Tue, 8 Jul 2014 12:34:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trail.lhotka.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (trail.lhotka.name [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yXTxkEk-bV1B; Tue, 8 Jul 2014 12:34:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [172.29.2.202]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9DE5F540138; Tue, 8 Jul 2014 12:34:53 +0200 (CEST) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Acee Lindem , netmod@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <1C413D11-4390-4027-8635-A88D215689C5@lindem.com> References: <1C413D11-4390-4027-8635-A88D215689C5@lindem.com> User-Agent: Notmuch/0.18 (http://notmuchmail.org) Emacs/24.3.50.2 (x86_64-apple-darwin13.0.0) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 12:34:53 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/RSn20AQgZlymUcgikpgqy6kNACQ X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 03:56:26 -0700 Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Comments on draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg-15 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 10:35:04 -0000 Hi Acee, thank you for the review, my comments are inline. Acee Lindem writes: > Hello, >=20=20 > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. = The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related draf= ts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on sp= ecial request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Ro= uting ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see h= ttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir >=20=20 > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it = would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last = Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussi= on or by updating the draft. >=20=20 > Document: draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg-15 > Reviewer: Acee Lindem > Review Date: July 8th, 2014 > IETF LC End Date: TBD=20 > Intended Status: Proposed Standard=20 > > Summary: There some issues with the model in the document that need to be= addressed prior to publication of this draft.=20 > > Fundamental Question: Going forward, how will this YANG data model > relate to the I2RS RIB information model proposed in > draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-03.txt? After IETF 87, the relevant parts of two models were compared, and this resulted in several changes and additions in the NETMOD model. Since then, the I2RS model underwent some changes but the only parameter that needs to be included in the NETMOD model is route-preference. Other parameters such as ENABLE_IP_RPF_CHECK or nexthop chains can be added later via augmentation. On the other hand, one of the results of the alignment with I2RS RIB info model, was the addition of the "id" key to every single route. In the discussion with I2RS folks, I raised objections against this unique "id" because it could mean considerable bookkeeping for a RIB containing ~200K routes, but we eventually agreed to add it to the NETMOD model. Later, several people repeated my concerns, and I think this "id" should be removed from the NETMOD model.=20=20=20 =20 > > Major Issues:=20=20 > > Section 4 & 5.4: These sections appear to restrict a routing > protocol instance to exactly one RIB for each address family > that the routing protocol instance supports. RFC 4915, et al, > support a single routing protocol instance which may populate > multiple RIBs per address family. This issue was brought up in a recent discussion with people working on data models for OSPF and ISIS, and the rough consensus is that this restriction should be lifted. By default, routes from a routing protocol instance will be installed in all connected RIBs of the corresponding address family (subject to operator-defined route filters), but data models for particular protocols can state other rules how connected RIBs are populated, e.g. using MT-ID.=20=20=20=20 =20 > > Section 7: What are the backup next-hops? I guess these are > IP-FRR next-hops that are installed by the same source protocol > as the primaries? If so, do you have to restrict the forwarding > paradigm to not use any backup next-hops as long as primary > next-hops are accessible? This would imply that forwarding > plane would need to do a fast rehash of the primaries and only > use after all primaries are expired. There are other lower > overhead forwarding paradigms in use. In this case we only followed suit of the I2RS RIB info model, see sections 2.4.2 and 7.2.4 (protection lists) in draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-03. > > Missing: There is no concept of administrative distance (Cisco, > et al) or route preference (gated and Juniper). In my opinion, > this is very important since it determine which route is active > when the same route is available from multiple protocols. Yes, route-preference will be added, see above. =20 >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 > Missing: How does one get the best route for a given protocol > (which is not necessarily the active route)? Should each > protocol have a local RIB as part of its model? I notice that > this is not included in the RIP example in Appendix C. Would > that need to be part of the run state for the protocol? Yes, data models for each routing protocol should include necessary protocol-internal data structures as state data - for example BGP RIB or link-state database. =20 > > Minor issues:=20 > > Section 9: Should there be checking to assure the router > advertisement mtu does not exceed the ipv6 MTU from RFC 7277? Yes, the description of the "link-mtu" leaf should mention this constraint. It cannot be done using the "must" statement though because the "ip:mtu" leaf is optional and the ietf-ip module defines no default for it (the default depends on interface type). =20 > > > Questions: > I guess the list routing protocol instances is independent in > routing-protocols is independent of definition of the routing > protocol itself? Or, would it be expected that the YANG model > for the routing protocol itself would be here? If the former, > wouldn=E2=80=99t this configuration be better grouped with the ro= uting > protocol themselves? I am not sure I understand the question but data models for individual routing protocols will be defined in separate YANG modules and will augment the "routing-protocol" list, both in configuration and state data. So, configuration parameters for a routing protocol will eventually appear under "routing-protocol" but will be defined separately. =20 > > In section 9, the placement of the router advertisement > configuration seems rather arbitrary and I would have expected > it to be grouped with the other interface configuration in RFC > 7277. I guess placement here is the consensus of the netmod WG. The advertisements should be sent only by routers, so I think it is appropriate to have it as a part of router interfaces' config and state data. Quite often (even at IETF meetings) we can see misconfigured hosts sending these advertisements. Thanks, Lada > > > Thanks, > Acee=20 > >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 --=20 Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C From nobody Tue Jul 8 03:56:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DE31B2800 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2014 03:56:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.467 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.467 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_91=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id juON_sV_a_Vq for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2014 03:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.25.95]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A58151B2853 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2014 03:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 30992 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jul 2014 10:56:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw2) (10.0.90.83) by gproxy1.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2014 10:56:26 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw2 with id PmwK1o00N2SSUrH01mwN9f; Tue, 08 Jul 2014 04:56:25 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=EJKVjTpC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=tcnv99F1KMcA:10 a=zqHLjNqbk_wA:10 a=HFCU6gKsb0MA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=wU2YTnxGAAAA:8 a=cNaOj0WVAAAA:8 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=uEJ9t1CZtbIA:10 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=7xPyp7LSBkGDkgT6ofoA:9 a=3rl6ZFYCiICjTTEz:21 a=DJTLcd-5B76n8cFT:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=33rK67OTR_gA:10 a=lZB815dzVvQA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=QRBioTGF407aBSfevLLg+Qv45Zy/+6tNFYt6HIMCJiU=; b=d7DyaLADFY2OPWMjLtvRkjXnVtKfiycMAE3/MwM/UtN9qQYV1jwFcd5+o6zZe1xH4ay+5L+L3h1lRh6pmYnM/EkZAxbrgYSALhEJiz1MkGLZmKAY4Vc4uhXyO//UfnTq; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:51191 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1X4T4O-0001eO-2y; Tue, 08 Jul 2014 04:56:20 -0600 Message-ID: <53BBCE48.7060008@labn.net> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 06:56:08 -0400 From: Lou Berger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yaacov Weingarten , Jeong Ryoo References: <53A5ABED.9080408@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28748144@SMTP2.etri.info> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/wOJIschXBz9NhUk18ZdyxuWAV6U Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [mpls] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 10:56:38 -0000 Yaacov, Sounds reasonable, but I'll need to see the new wording to be sure. Thanks, Lou On 7/5/2014 3:49 PM, Yaacov Weingarten wrote: > > Lou, hi > I would like to address two of your comments, in your follow-up > message, since I am the source of the change in terminology. > > Regarding the two occurences of "assigned" in place of "utilized" - > when I read the proposed changes,as discussed amongst the authors, I > felt that in those two instances the use of "utilized" could lead to > some ambiguity. > > If we state that "resources SHOULD be utilized on a first come first > served basis" this could be interpreted (IMO) as referring to the > packet level, rather than utilized by a specific path, such that > packets from different paths could be interspersed along the shared > segments. Therefore,I suggested that or this context it would be > better to use a word that meant that the first-come first served basis > was at the level of assigning (or allocating) the resources rather > than utilizing them. > > Hope this clarifies this point. I am certain that I speak for the > other authors in saying that I am open to other suggestions. > > BR, > yaacov > > On Jul 4, 2014 3:53 AM, "Jeong Ryoo" > wrote: > > Dear Lou, > > > > Thanks a lot for your valuable comments. > > > > The authors of this draft have discussed your comments, and are > proposing our resolutions to your comments. Please, let us know if > the proposal is appropriate to address your comments and concerns. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Authors of draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements draft > > > > ****** Beginning of Comment Resolution ****** > > > > - Document's usage of "committed" vs "allocated" resources: > > In section 1 the document introduces the notion that the > distinction between protection and restoration is based on when > resources are "committed". This difference from past > definition. RFC4427 and 6372 make the distinction that protection > and restoration differ based on when resources are *allocated* not > *committed*. To quote RFC 4427: > > The distinction between protection and restoration is made based > on the resource allocation done during the recovery LSP/span > establishment. The distinction between different types of > restoration is made based on the level of route computation, > signaling, and resource allocation during the restoration > LSP/span establishment. > > This difference also leads to come confused statements in the > document as well as ambiguity in the text, i.e. confusion by the > reader. The term "committed" is not tightly defined in this > document (or earlier work) and is used differently than how > "allocated" has been used. An example of this can be found in > Section 3.1 which states: > > However, the commitment of the resources, at least for the > shared segments, will only be finalized when the protection > path is actually activated. Therefore, for the purists - > regarding the terminology - SMP lies somewhere between > protection and restoration. > > Both sentences are problematic. In the first, commitment seems to > cover a "protection switch" would "connect" the protection path > but not the earlier "allocation" of resources. (Quoted terms are > used in earlier RFCs.) The second conclusion is based on the new > distinction of protection vs. restoration and is unnecessary with > the existing distinction. > > This issue exists in multiple places in the document where > "committed" is used and I'd recommend that each should be replaced > with terminology used in the referenced RFCs, i.e., "allocation", > "connection", "cross-connect", "protection switch(over)", ... > > Note I'm *not* highlighting all cases where there are problems in the > document related to this issue. There are a couple of places in the > document where I think it's possible that once this terminology > ambiguity is corrected that I'll have other substantive comments. > > > > [Authors] After reviewing RFCs 4427, 6372, 3945, 4426, and 4428, > we concluded that the distinction between protection and > restoration should be aligned with the exiting documents > normatively referenced by this document. Accordingly, the > following 16 modifications will be done in revision: > > > > (1) Section 1, the third paragraph > > OLD: > > As pointed out > > in [RFC6372] and [RFC4428], applying 1+1 linear protection requires > > that resources are committed for use by both the working and > > protection paths. Applying 1:1 protection requires that the same > > resources are committed, but allows the resources of the protection > > path to be utilized for pre-emptible extra traffic. > > NEW: > > As pointed out > > in [RFC6372] and [RFC4428], applying 1+1 protection requires > > that resources are allocated for use by both the working and > > protection paths. Applying 1:1 protection requires that the same > > resources are allocated, but allows the resources of the protection > > path to be utilized for pre-emptible extra traffic. > > > > (2) The whole text in Section 3.1 will be replaced with: > > [RFC6372], based upon the definitions in [RFC4427], differentiates > between "protection" and "restoration" dependent upon the dynamism > of the resource allocation. The same distinction is used in > [RFC3945], [RFC4426], and [RFC4428]. This document also uses the > same distinction between protection and restoration as stated in > [RFC6372]. > > > > (3) In page 6, > > OLD: > > The use of preemption in the network is typically a business or > > policy decision such that when protection resources are contended, > > priority can be applied to determine to which parties the protection > > resources are committed. > > NEW: > > The use of preemption in the network is typically a business or > > policy decision such that when protection resources are contended, > > priority can be applied to determine which parties utilize the > protection > > resources. > > > > (4) Page 7, the first paragraph: > > OLD: > > the resources for the protection path are fully committed, > > NEW > > the resources for the protection path are fully dedicated, > > > > OLD: > > resources may be planned but would not be committed until … > > NEW: > > resources may be planned but would not be utilized until … > > > > (5) In the second paragraph in page 7, > > OLD: > > "Hard Preemption" requires the programming of selectors at the > ingress of each shared segment to specify which backup path has > the highest priority when committing protection resources, the > others being preempted. > > NEW > > "Hard Preemption" requires the programming of selectors at the > ingress of each shared segment to specify the priorities of backup > paths, so that traffic of lower priority paths can be preempted. > > > > (6) The first paragraph of Section 4.1: > > OLD: > > … and commit the associated resources. The commitment of resources > > is dependent upon … > > NEW: > > … and coordinate the utilization of the associated shared resources. > > The resource utilization coordination is dependent upon … > > > > (7) The second paragraph of Section 4.1: > > OLD: > > When the reserved resources of the shared segments are committed to a > > particular protection path, there may not be sufficient resources > > available for an additional protection path. This then implies that > > if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a protection > > switch, the commitment of the resources may fail. In order to > > optimize the operation of the commitment and preparing for cases of > > multiple working paths failing, the commitment of the shared > > resources are be coordinated between the different working paths in > > the SMP network. > > NEW: > > When the reserved resources of the shared segments are utilized by a > > particular protection path, there may not be sufficient resources > > available for an additional protection path. This then implies that > > if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a protection > > switch, the resource utilization coordination may fail. The > different working paths in > > the SMP network are involved in the resource utilization > coordination. > > . > > > > (8) Section 5.1, > > OLD: > > … and commit the associated resources. > > NEW > > … and coordinate the utilization of the associated shared resources. > > > > (9) In Section 5.1, > > OLD: > > In the case of multiple working paths failing, the commitment of the > > shared resources SHALL be coordinated between the different working > > paths in the SMP network. > > NEW: > > In the case of multiple working paths failing, the shared resource > utilization > > coordination SHALL be between the different working > > paths in the SMP network. > > > > (10) Section 5.1.1. > > OLD: > > … because they already have been committed to the protection of, > for example, a higher priority working path. > > NEW: > > … because they already have been utilized for the protection of, > for example, a higher priority working path. > > > > (11) Section 5.2, the second bullet item: > > OLD: > > Resources of the shared segments SHALL be committed to the > > protection path … > > NEW: > > Resources of the shared segments SHALL be utilized by the > > protection path … > > > > (12) Section 5.2, the third bullet item: > > OLD: > > If multiple protection paths of equal priority are requesting > > allocation of the shared resources, the resources SHOULD be > > committed on a first come first served basis. > > NEW: > > If multiple protection paths of equal priority are requesting > > the shared resources, the resources SHOULD be > > assigned on a first come first served basis. > > > > (13) Section 5.2, the fourth bullet item: > > OLD: > > If the protection resources are committed to a protection path, > > whose working path has a lower priority, resources required for > > the higher priority path SHALL be committed to the higher priority > > path. > > NEW: > > If the protection resources are utilized by a protection path, > > whose working path has a lower priority, resources required for > > the higher priority path SHALL be assigned to the higher priority > > path. > > > > > > (14) Section 5.2. the seventh bullet item > > OLD: > > Once resources of shared segments have been successfully committed > > to a protection path, … > > NEW: > > Once resources of shared segments have been successfully utilized > > by a protection path, … > > > > (15) Section 5.3, the first paragraph, > > OLD: > > … request the commitment of protection resources. If the necessary > > shared resources are unavailable to be committed to the protection > > path, the endpoints … > > > > NEW: > > … request the coordination of the shared resource utilization. If > the necessary > > shared resources are unavailable, the endpoints … > > > > (16) Section 5.3, the second paragraph, > > OLD: > > Similarly, if preemption is supported and the resources currently > > committed for a particular working path are … > > NEW: > > Similarly, if preemption is supported and the resources currently > > utilized by a particular working path are … > > > > > > - Section 2, 1st paragraph, last sentence. This sentence really > defines > the scope/purpose of the document, i.e., "clarifies the instructions > to protocol designers producing solutions that satisfy the > requirements set out in this document." As such, I'd repeat this in > the abstract and move it to a more pronounced place in section 1 (or > 3). > > [Authors] We can add the following paragraph at the end of Section 1: > > “This document is intended to clarify the instructions to protocol > designers producing solutions that satisfy the requirements set > out in this document.” > > > > > - General comment: fate-sharing for co-routed bidirectional LSP > protection: How is co-routing preserved for the reverse path in SMP? > I'd assumed the protection switch coordination protocol would be > required to trigger a switchover of the reverse LSP in the co-routed > case, but don't see this in the document. > > [Authors] Fate-sharing is not required by this document. Even in > the PSC linear protection switching, such as RFC 6378 (PSC) and > RFC 7271 (PSC in APS mode), fate-sharing is not required as > unidirectional switching is allowed. This document does not impose > any restriction on co-routing, either. > > > > > - In section 4 and 5.2 you reference 5712 and 3209 as defining > preemption terminology and behavior. I think 6372 is the right > reference here as it defines both in the context of survivability and > in dependent of control plane. > > [Authors] One concern is that RFC 6372 describes both soft and > hard preemptions in the context of extra traffic, which is not > exactly the case for SMP. > > > > > - In section 4.2 you say "Therefore, it is suggested that this be > carried out under the control of a dynamic control plane similar to > GMPLS [RFC3945]." perhaps you mean "based on GMPLS"? If so, great, > please make the correction. If not, I think the debate of which > control protocol is used for MPLS-TP is way beyond the scope of this > document. > > [Authors] Yes, we will make the correction. > > > > > - Section 5.1, paragraph 1. Why are you using "SHOULD NOT" here? If > referring to solutions conformant with this document, then these are > informative statements, "and a non-control plane based SMP switchover > mechanism is used, the control plane SHALL NOT ...". If referring to > an operator's/user's choice of protection mechanism, I think the most > you can say is MAY. > > [Authors] The first case is the one we are aiming at. We will use > SHALL NOT. > > > > > - Section 5.2. "Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP > domain." As this is a requirement, what you mean by "tie-breaking > rules" should be defined directly or by reference. > > [Authors] The sentence can be rewritten as: > > OLD: > > Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP domain. > > NEW: > > In order to cover the situation where the first come first served > principle cannot resolve the contention among multiple equal > priority requests, i.e., when the requests occur simultaneously,, > tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP domain. > > > > > > > - Section 5.3. RFC6372 takes an approach where preemption notification > leverages the standard MPLS-TP OAM mechanisms, is there any reason to > do more / not just follow 6372? > > [Authors] We can add the following sentence at the end: > > “As described in [RFC6372], the event of preemption may be > detected by OAM and reported as a fault or a degradation of > traffic delivery.” > > > - Section 5.7. There may be coordination required on > soft-preemption as > well (depending on the cross-connects established during LSP > establishment) so coordinated switching should be supported > independent of preemption mode. > > [Authors] Yes, we will change the second paragraph from “SMP in > hard-preemption mode SHOULD …” to “SMP SHOULD …” and move the > changed paragraph above the first paragraph. > > > > > Nits: > > - Abstract: I don't recall the term "executive action" being used > in any > earlier related/referenced RFCs. Rather than introduce a new (and > undefined) term, perhaps you can use an existing one, e.g., > "protection switch"? > > [Authors] Yes, the term will be changed as you suggested. > > > > > - Section 1, paragraph 1. Do we really need another definition of > MPLS-TP to debate? I suggest just referencing your favorite MPLS-TP > document(s) and dropping the first four sentences. > > The last sentence also makes a subjective statement. Whether it is > critical or no is unnecessary. You can just say something like 6372 > provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP and is the foundation > for this document. > > [Authors] The proposed text for the paragraph 1 is: > > “The MPLS Transport Profile (MPLS-TP) is described in [RFC5921], > > and [RFC6372] provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP > > and is the foundation for this document.” > > > > > - Section 1, paragraph 3. Isn't the right reference 4427 not 4428? > Also drop the word linear, as it is an unnecessary qualifier and > 4427/4428 don't use it. > > [Authors] OK. > > > > > > > - Sections 3 (and to a lesser degree section 2) are really > introductory > text. I'm unsure as to why they aren't part of section 1. > > [Authors] Section 3 was intended to present a reference model for > SMP. Some text of Section 2 is repeated in Section 1 as you > suggested earlier. > > > > > > > - Section 3.2 should have a reference for "existing control plane > solutions for SMP within MPLS". > > [Authors] [RFC4206] will be added as a reference > > > - Section 3.2 again uses the "executive action" term. > > [Authors] OK, the term will be changed. > > > > > - Section 4.1. You say "two operations simultaneously". Do you really > mean "simultaneously" or merely that they must both occur for > protection to be provided? (Same comment in section 5.1. > > [Authors] Both actions should occur at the same time, or as > closely as possible to provide fast protection. > > > > > - Section 5.2. I suggest numbering the currently bulletted > requirements > list. > > [Authors] OK, we will use numbers. > > > > > - Section 5.2: First paragraph and forth bullet last sentence. These > both basically cover the same topic (preemption) and actually say > slightly different things. I suggest combine into a single > requirement to ensure consistency and full coverage of the topic. > > [Authors] The first paragraph is for soft-preemption, while the > fourth bullet belongs to the requirements of hard-preemption. > > > - Section 5.2, req 5. How does this relate to section 5.5? Shouldn't > the topics related to timing be consolidated? > > [Authors] Yes, req 5 can be moved to Section 5.5. > > > > > - Section 5.2: requirement 6 seems to be a subset of 7, so it > should be > dropped. > > [Authors] Yes, it will be deleted. > > > - Section 5.2, requirement 8. Isn't this a subset of 9? Why call out > just this one traffic treatment (sub) requirement? > > [Authors] Req. 9 will be deleted as it seems to require control > plane supports. > > > > - Section 5.3. s/MAY/will > > [Authors] OK. > > > > > - section 5.4: " When the working path detects.." detection is by the > node not the path. > > [Authors] Yes. We will simply say that “When the condition that > triggered the protection switching is cleared, …” > > > - Section 5.4, last sentence. This is only the 2nd time you imply that > the document covers requirements on a new protocol. I think this > point is currently too subtle in the document. (This point was also > made as a minor comment.) > > [Authors] As in other protection switching technologies, two modes > of operations (revertive and non-revertive) are required. > > > > > - section 5.6. RFC 6372 should be referenced > > [Authors] We will add “as described in [RFC6372]” to the ends of > two paragraphs for WTR timer and hold-off timer. > > > > ***** End of Comment resolution ***** > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *보낸 사람 : *"Lou Berger" > > *보낸 날짜 : *2014-06-22 01:00:48 ( +09:00 ) > *받는 사람 : *rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org > > > *참조 : *rtg-dir@ietf.org > >, > draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org > > >, > mpls@ietf.org > > *제목 : *[mpls] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt > > > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this > draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or > routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG > review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is > to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information > about the > Routing Directorate, please see > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing > ADs, it > would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF > Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them > through > discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt > Reviewer: Lou Berger > Review Date: June 21 2014 > IETF LC End Date: 2014-06-23 > Intended Status: Informational > > Summary: > I have some minor concerns about this document that I think > should (must, actually) be resolved before publication. > > Comments: > > I think the document is well written and, other than a couple of > terminology related issues, easily understood. The document does > have a number of terminology and technical issues which should be > readily resolved prior to publication. > > Major Issues: > > Major issues are the type of concerns that will result in the > document being blocked until they are resolved. The Routing ADs will > become involved. Please include all of the major issues you have > found. Give as much context information as possible (e.g., section > numbers, paragraph counts). If you find no major issues, please > write: "No major issues found." > > - No major issues found. In particular, I expect all issues can be > resolved without AD intervention. Some of the minor issues, if not > resolved will be escalated to the AD/major issue category. > > Minor Issues: > > Minor issues are concerns about clarity or technical accuracy that > should be discussed and resolved before publication, but which would > normally be resolved between the authors and the reviewers. Please > include all of the minor issues you have found. Give as much context > information as possible (e.g., section numbers, paragraph counts). > If you find no minor issues, please write: "No minor issues found." > > - Document's usage of "committed" vs "allocated" resources: > > In section 1 the document introduces the notion that the > distinction between protection and restoration is based on when > resources are "committed". This difference from past > definition. RFC4427 and 6372 make the distinction that protection > and restoration differ based on when resources are *allocated* not > *committed*. To quote RFC 4427: > > The distinction between protection and restoration is made based > on the resource allocation done during the recovery LSP/span > establishment. The distinction between different types of > restoration is made based on the level of route computation, > signaling, and resource allocation during the restoration > LSP/span establishment. > > This difference also leads to come confused statements in the > document as well as ambiguity in the text, i.e. confusion by the > reader. The term "committed" is not tightly defined in this > document (or earlier work) and is used differently than how > "allocated" has been used. An example of this can be found in > Section 3.1 which states: > > However, the commitment of the resources, at least for the > shared segments, will only be finalized when the protection > path is actually activated. Therefore, for the purists - > regarding the terminology - SMP lies somewhere between > protection and restoration. > > Both sentences are problematic. In the first, commitment seems to > cover a "protection switch" would "connect" the protection path > but not the earlier "allocation" of resources. (Quoted terms are > used in earlier RFCs.) The second conclusion is based on the new > distinction of protection vs. restoration and is unnecessary with > the existing distinction. > > This issue exists in multiple places in the document where > "committed" is used and I'd recommend that each should be replaced > with terminology used in the referenced RFCs, i.e., "allocation", > "connection", "cross-connect", "protection switch(over)", ... > > Note I'm *not* highlighting all cases where there are problems in the > document related to this issue. There are a couple of places in the > document where I think it's possible that once this terminology > ambiguity is corrected that I'll have other substantive comments. > > - Section 2, 1st paragraph, last sentence. This sentence really > defines > the scope/purpose of the document, i.e., "clarifies the instructions > to protocol designers producing solutions that satisfy the > requirements set out in this document." As such, I'd repeat this in > the abstract and move it to a more pronounced place in section 1 (or > 3). > > - General comment: fate-sharing for co-routed bidirectional LSP > protection: How is co-routing preserved for the reverse path in SMP? > I'd assumed the protection switch coordination protocol would be > required to trigger a switchover of the reverse LSP in the co-routed > case, but don't see this in the document. > > - In section 4 and 5.2 you reference 5712 and 3209 as defining > preemption terminology and behavior. I think 6372 is the right > reference here as it defines both in the context of survivability and > in dependent of control plane. > > - In section 4.2 you say "Therefore, it is suggested that this be > carried out under the control of a dynamic control plane similar to > GMPLS [RFC3945]." perhaps you mean "based on GMPLS"? If so, great, > please make the correction. If not, I think the debate of which > control protocol is used for MPLS-TP is way beyond the scope of this > document. > > - Section 5.1, paragraph 1. Why are you using "SHOULD NOT" here? If > referring to solutions conformant with this document, then these are > informative statements, "and a non-control plane based SMP switchover > mechanism is used, the control plane SHALL NOT ...". If referring to > an operator's/user's choice of protection mechanism, I think the most > you can say is MAY. > > - Section 5.2. "Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP > domain." As this is a requirement, what you mean by "tie-breaking > rules" should be defined directly or by reference. > > - Section 5.3. RFC6372 takes an approach where preemption notification > leverages the standard MPLS-TP OAM mechanisms, is there any reason to > do more / not just follow 6372? > > - Section 5.7. There may be coordination required on > soft-preemption as > well (depending on the cross-connects established during LSP > establishment) so coordinated switching should be supported > independent of preemption mode. > > Nits: > > - Abstract: I don't recall the term "executive action" being used > in any > earlier related/referenced RFCs. Rather than introduce a new (and > undefined) term, perhaps you can use an existing one, e.g., > "protection switch"? > > - Section 1, paragraph 1. Do we really need another definition of > MPLS-TP to debate? I suggest just referencing your favorite MPLS-TP > document(s) and dropping the first four sentences. > > The last sentence also makes a subjective statement. Whether it is > critical or no is unnecessary. You can just say something like 6372 > provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP and is the foundation > for this document. > > - Section 1, paragraph 3. Isn't the right reference 4427 not 4428? > Also drop the word linear, as it is an unnecessary qualifier and > 4427/4428 don't use it. > > - Sections 3 (and to a lesser degree section 2) are really > introductory > text. I'm unsure as to why they aren't part of section 1. > > - Section 3.2 should have a reference for "existing control plane > solutions for SMP within MPLS". > > - Section 3.2 again uses the "executive action" term. > > - Section 4.1. You say "two operations simultaneously". Do you really > mean "simultaneously" or merely that they must both occur for > protection to be provided? (Same comment in section 5.1. > > - Section 5.2. I suggest numbering the currently bulletted > requirements > list. > > - Section 5.2: First paragraph and forth bullet last sentence. These > both basically cover the same topic (preemption) and actually say > slightly different things. I suggest combine into a single > requirement to ensure consistency and full coverage of the topic. > > - Section 5.2, req 5. How does this relate to section 5.5? Shouldn't > the topics related to timing be consolidated? > > - Section 5.2: requirement 6 seems to be a subset of 7, so it > should be > dropped. > > - Section 5.2, requirement 8. Isn't this a subset of 9? Why call out > just this one traffic treatment (sub) requirement? > > - Section 5.3. s/MAY/will > > - section 5.4: " When the working path detects.." detection is by the > node not the path. > > - Section 5.4, last sentence. This is only the 2nd time you imply that > the document covers requirements on a new protocol. I think this > point is currently too subtle in the document. (This point was also > made as a minor comment.) > > - section 5.6. RFC 6372 should be referenced > > > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list > mpls@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls > > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list > mpls@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls > From nobody Tue Jul 8 14:07:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26AA51A007A for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2014 14:02:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nnJr00DCPAWH for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2014 14:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdptpa-oedge-vip.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.227]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F7FD1A0068 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 2014 14:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [65.190.6.125] ([65.190.6.125:34131] helo=[10.0.1.6]) by cdptpa-oedge02 (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.5.0.35861 r(Momo-dev:tip)) with ESMTP id 72/B9-20336-C4C5CB35; Tue, 08 Jul 2014 21:02:05 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Acee Lindem In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 17:02:04 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1C413D11-4390-4027-8635-A88D215689C5@lindem.com> To: Ladislav Lhotka X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-RR-Connecting-IP: 107.14.168.130:25 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/Q2eBtTSbqYiAB9aXk_gJOjdkTmE X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 14:07:44 -0700 Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Routing Directorate Comments on draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg-15 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 21:02:08 -0000 Hi Lada,=20 Thanks for your responses. It seems that you will publish a new revision = that covers most of my comments. I will await that update and review. = With respect to only supporting the forwarding model where none of the = backup paths are used until all the primaries are unavailable, I will = discuss the with a few more people and get back to you.=20 Thanks, Acee=20 On Jul 8, 2014, at 6:34 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > Hi Acee, >=20 > thank you for the review, my comments are inline. >=20 > Acee Lindem writes: >=20 >> Hello, >>=20 >> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this = draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or = routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG = review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is = to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the = Routing Directorate, please see = http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir >>=20 >> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, = it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF = Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through = discussion or by updating the draft. >>=20 >> Document: draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg-15 >> Reviewer: Acee Lindem >> Review Date: July 8th, 2014 >> IETF LC End Date: TBD=20 >> Intended Status: Proposed Standard=20 >>=20 >> Summary: There some issues with the model in the document that need = to be addressed prior to publication of this draft.=20 >>=20 >> Fundamental Question: Going forward, how will this YANG data model >> relate to the I2RS RIB information model proposed in >> draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-03.txt? >=20 > After IETF 87, the relevant parts of two models were compared, and = this > resulted in several changes and additions in the NETMOD model. Since > then, the I2RS model underwent some changes but the only parameter = that > needs to be included in the NETMOD model is route-preference. Other > parameters such as ENABLE_IP_RPF_CHECK or nexthop chains can be added > later via augmentation. >=20 > On the other hand, one of the results of the alignment with I2RS RIB > info model, was the addition of the "id" key to every single route. In > the discussion with I2RS folks, I raised objections against this = unique > "id" because it could mean considerable bookkeeping for a RIB = containing > ~200K routes, but we eventually agreed to add it to the NETMOD > model. Later, several people repeated my concerns, and I think this = "id" > should be removed from the NETMOD model. =20 >=20 >>=20 >> Major Issues: =20 >>=20 >> Section 4 & 5.4: These sections appear to restrict a routing >> protocol instance to exactly one RIB for each address family >> that the routing protocol instance supports. RFC 4915, et al, >> support a single routing protocol instance which may populate >> multiple RIBs per address family. >=20 > This issue was brought up in a recent discussion with people working = on > data models for OSPF and ISIS, and the rough consensus is that this > restriction should be lifted. By default, routes from a routing = protocol > instance will be installed in all connected RIBs of the corresponding > address family (subject to operator-defined route filters), but data > models for particular protocols can state other rules how connected = RIBs > are populated, e.g. using MT-ID. =20 >=20 >>=20 >> Section 7: What are the backup next-hops? I guess these are >> IP-FRR next-hops that are installed by the same source protocol >> as the primaries? If so, do you have to restrict the forwarding >> paradigm to not use any backup next-hops as long as primary >> next-hops are accessible? This would imply that forwarding >> plane would need to do a fast rehash of the primaries and only >> use after all primaries are expired. There are other lower >> overhead forwarding paradigms in use. >=20 > In this case we only followed suit of the I2RS RIB info model, see > sections 2.4.2 and 7.2.4 (protection lists) in > draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-03. >=20 >>=20 >> Missing: There is no concept of administrative distance (Cisco, >> et al) or route preference (gated and Juniper). In my opinion, >> this is very important since it determine which route is active >> when the same route is available from multiple protocols. >=20 > Yes, route-preference will be added, see above. >=20 >>=20 >> Missing: How does one get the best route for a given protocol >> (which is not necessarily the active route)? Should each >> protocol have a local RIB as part of its model? I notice that >> this is not included in the RIP example in Appendix C. Would >> that need to be part of the run state for the protocol? >=20 > Yes, data models for each routing protocol should include necessary > protocol-internal data structures as state data - for example BGP RIB = or > link-state database. >=20 >>=20 >> Minor issues:=20 >>=20 >> Section 9: Should there be checking to assure the router >> advertisement mtu does not exceed the ipv6 MTU from RFC 7277? >=20 >=20 > Yes, the description of the "link-mtu" leaf should mention this > constraint. It cannot be done using the "must" statement though = because > the "ip:mtu" leaf is optional and the ietf-ip module defines no = default > for it (the default depends on interface type). >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Questions: >> I guess the list routing protocol instances is independent in >> routing-protocols is independent of definition of the routing >> protocol itself? Or, would it be expected that the YANG model >> for the routing protocol itself would be here? If the former, >> wouldn=92t this configuration be better grouped with the = routing >> protocol themselves? >=20 > I am not sure I understand the question but data models for individual > routing protocols will be defined in separate YANG modules and will > augment the "routing-protocol" list, both in configuration and state > data. So, configuration parameters for a routing protocol will > eventually appear under "routing-protocol" but will be defined > separately. >=20 >>=20 >> In section 9, the placement of the router advertisement >> configuration seems rather arbitrary and I would have expected >> it to be grouped with the other interface configuration in RFC >> 7277. I guess placement here is the consensus of the netmod WG. >=20 > The advertisements should be sent only by routers, so I think it is > appropriate to have it as a part of router interfaces' config and = state > data. Quite often (even at IETF meetings) we can see misconfigured = hosts > sending these advertisements. >=20 > Thanks, Lada >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Acee=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C From nobody Thu Jul 10 04:55:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9AA11B2888; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 04:55:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.488 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.488 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_BIZ=0.288, HELO_MISMATCH_BIZ=0.443, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R6tCXQP3UoOP; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 04:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newdragon.webhostserver.biz (unknown [69.25.137.16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97B2D1A03F6; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 04:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1]:34147 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by newdragon.webhostserver.biz with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1X5Cwv-0005kd-5Q; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 15:55:41 +0400 Message-ID: <53BE7F3B.9010005@labn.net> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 07:55:39 -0400 From: Lou Berger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?66WY7KCV64+Z?= References: <53A5ABED.9080408@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28748144@SMTP2.etri.info>, <53B8190E.6080505@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749702@SMTP2.etri.info> In-Reply-To: <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749702@SMTP2.etri.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - newdragon.webhostserver.biz X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: newdragon.webhostserver.biz: authenticated_id: lberger@blabn.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/oDAvmTD_U0LKVWH_eXb5p0ASyaQ Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org" , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] =?utf-8?b?7ZqM7IugOiAgW21wbHNdIFJ0Z0RpciByZXZpZXc6IGRy?= =?utf-8?q?aft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: lberger@labn.net List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 11:55:47 -0000 Jeong-dong, Thank you for the response, see below. On 7/10/2014 2:55 AM, 류정동 wrote: > > Thank you, Lou > > Please, see the lines starting with [JR] for my responses to your comments. > > I removed the parts that we have already agreed on. I also erased your comments that are minor editorial and will be reflected in the next version as you suggested. The two “assigned” related comments are not covered here as they are being discussed with Yaacov. > > Best regards, > > Jeong-dong > > ****** > > (4) Page 7, the first paragraph: > OLD: > the resources for the protection path are fully committed, > NEW > the resources for the protection path are fully dedicated, > > Dedicated is also an ambiguous term, how about: > OLD > the resources for the protection path are fully committed, the > protection path in the case of SMP consists of segments that are > dedicated to the protection of the related working path and also > NEW > the resources for the protection path are fully allocated, the > protection path in the case of SMP consists of segments that are > allocated to the protection of the related working path and also > > [JR] This paragraph describes the difference between linear protection and shared mesh protection from the perspective of protection resource sharing. In linear protection switching, the resources are not shared but dedicated to the protection path. SMP has shared resources in some segments. I think the word, “dedicated” is general enough to be used without any further definition. RFC 6372 also uses “dedicated“, and this document follows the same use as in RFC 6372 I think the (new) first usage of dedicated in paragraph is fine, it's the second I have a real issue with. I suggested changing both to avoid the term altogether. The way "dedicated" is used in the second sentence is in the context of SMP, while RFC6372 uses "dedicated" the context of "Dedicated Protection" which is contrasted with "Shared Protection". How about: NEW the resources for the protection path are fully dedicated, the protection path in the case of SMP consists of segments that are used for protection of the related working path and also > > > (7) The second paragraph of Section 4.1: > OLD: > When the reserved resources of the shared segments are committed to a > particular protection path, there may not be sufficient resources > available for an additional protection path. This then implies that > if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a protection > switch, the commitment of the resources may fail. In order to > optimize the operation of the commitment and preparing for cases of > multiple working paths failing, the commitment of the shared > resources are be coordinated between the different working paths in > the SMP network. > NEW: > When the reserved resources of the shared segments are utilized by a > particular protection path, there may not be sufficient resources > available for an additional protection path. This then implies that > if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a protection > switch, the resource utilization coordination may fail. The different working paths in > the SMP network are involved in the resource utilization coordination. > > > This is fine, but I wonder why you are using "resource utilization" vs "protection switch"? (this is actually a bit of a general comment -- I the latter is an existing applicable term that would help readers how this document fits in to the technology space.) > > [JR] As described in an earlier part of this section, SMP protection consists of two operations: traffic switchover and resource utilization coordination. The sentences are about the resource utilization coordination, and “resource utilization” seems to be more accurate. Is "resource utilization coordination" done via some form of inter-node coordination? If yes, then I think my comment holds. If no, then I think you should elabotate on how the "coordination" in this case differes from how you use "coordination" elsewhere in the document. Either way, I think we've discussed this enough, i.e., I won't push this point further. > > > - General comment: fate-sharing for co-routed bidirectional LSP > protection: How is co-routing preserved for the reverse path in SMP? > I'd assumed the protection switch coordination protocol would be > required to trigger a switchover of the reverse LSP in the co-routed > case, but don't see this in the document. > [Authors] Fate-sharing is not required by this document. Even in the PSC linear protection switching, such as RFC 6378 (PSC) and RFC 7271 (PSC in APS mode), fate-sharing is not required as unidirectional switching is allowed. This document does not impose any restriction on co-routing, either. > > > Both RFC4427 and 6372 mention this (Bi-directional recovery switching in the former). I think this document really needs to mention something on the topic. Given the 6372 a "MAY" level requirement is probably sufficient, but this should be confirmed with the WG. (I personally would like SHOULD as this seems to better match 6372's text "operator often requires...".) > > [JR] O.K. I guess that mandating bidirectional switching does not mean that unidirectional switching is prohibited. What we can do is that, after changing the title of Section 5.4. from “Revertive protection switching” to “Reversion and Fate-sharing”, one paragraph with the following sentence will be added: “Bidirectional protection switching SHOULD be supported in SMP.” The topics are essentially orthognal, i.e., supporting one without the other is completly reasonable. If you don't want to add a dedicated section, then Sections 5.7, 5.3 and perhaps even 5.5 are better choices. > > > - In section 4 and 5.2 you reference 5712 and 3209 as defining > preemption terminology and behavior. I think 6372 is the right > reference here as it defines both in the context of survivability and > in dependent of control plane. > [Authors] One concern is that RFC 6372 describes both soft and hard preemptions in the context of extra traffic, which is not exactly the case for SMP. > > Then 6372 should be referenced and the difference should be described. Otherwise readers are likely to think you just used the wrong reference and that 6372's text applies. 6372 is after all titled "MPLS-TP Survivability Framework"... > > [JR] O.K. 6372 will be referenced and we can add the following sentence as the third sentence in the paragraph: “The traffic of lower priority paths in this document can be viewed as the extra traffic being preempted in [RFC6372].” great. > > > - Section 4.1. You say "two operations simultaneously". Do you really > mean "simultaneously" or merely that they must both occur for > protection to be provided? (Same comment in section 5.1. > [Authors] Both actions should occur at the same time, or as closely as possible to provide fast protection. > > What text change is planned? > > [JR] We can erase “simultaneously” and add the sentence (“Both operations should occur at the same time, or as closely as possible to provide fast protection.”) as the second sentence of the paragraph. WFM. > > > > - Section 5.2: First paragraph and forth bullet last sentence. These > both basically cover the same topic (preemption) and actually say > slightly different things. I suggest combine into a single > requirement to ensure consistency and full coverage of the topic. > [Authors] The first paragraph is for soft-preemption, while the fourth bullet belongs to the requirements of hard-preemption. > > Do you plan a text change? (the 1st paragraph should be a list item and soft-preemption is mentioned as a parenthetical , and the forth doesn't mention its scope as hard preemption.) > > [JR] OK. We can make them clear. How about the following arrangement? > > 5.2. Multiple triggers > > If more than one working path is triggering a protection switch such > that a protection segment is oversubscribed, there are two different > actions that the SMP network can choose – soft preemption and hard > preemption. > > 5.2.1. Soft-preemption > > For networks that support multiplexing packets over the shared segments, the requirement is: > > O All of the protection paths MAY be allowed to share the resources > of the shared segments > > 5.2.2 Hard-preemption > > There are networks that require the exclusive use of the protection > resources when a protection segment is oversubscribed. > Traffic of lower priority paths is completely blocked. > These include networks that support the requirements in [RFC5654], > and in particular support requirement 58. For such networks, > the following requirements apply: > > O ... > > O ... > I think this will work. Thanks, Lou ... From nobody Thu Jul 10 05:10:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C5E1A0495 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 05:10:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xr1zLQWnzMm5 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 05:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [70.40.196.235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C3C11A03FF for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 05:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 30856 invoked by uid 0); 10 Jul 2014 12:10:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw3) (10.0.90.84) by gproxy7.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2014 12:10:02 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw3 with id Qi9j1o00R2SSUrH01i9mc2; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 12:10:00 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=fudPOjIf c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=ZSdzdHkL1-cA:10 a=-ANFxW_a3iwA:10 a=HFCU6gKsb0MA:10 a=jPJDawAOAc8A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=wU2YTnxGAAAA:8 a=cNaOj0WVAAAA:8 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=uEJ9t1CZtbIA:10 a=qfHHtKHh6Xq5kuXZ0osA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=cDA9wQrF4DmXfdB8lmw4lXnuWKKV0Y1MAcVk3mc5TGU=; b=hkhlwa3ggFuDuQL+sQUlOzyx+7dls1UeJ6lRFFRh1CI5DilZnvsEKwmO+ows1fiKciJCsUrigYefAvm8vb6JLaEv22KFzt6vVltksk0R8tVaPAMD4AB7XHaprI7pWF3I; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:54573 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1X5DAW-0003p5-RO; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 06:09:45 -0600 Message-ID: <53BE8285.6000106@labn.net> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 08:09:41 -0400 From: Lou Berger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?66WY7KCV64+Z?= References: <53A5ABED.9080408@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28748144@SMTP2.etri.info>, <53B8190E.6080505@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749702@SMTP2.etri.info> In-Reply-To: <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749702@SMTP2.etri.info> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/4k1XecrAmlZsBgQhRX8S-OEImf4 Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org" , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] =?utf-8?b?7ZqM7IugOiAgW21wbHNdIFJ0Z0RpciByZXZpZXc6IGRy?= =?utf-8?q?aft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06=2Etxt_=28resend=29?= X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 12:10:07 -0000 [Got some odd bounces on my 1st attempt to send this...] Jeong-dong, Thank you for the response, see below. On 7/10/2014 2:55 AM, ë¥˜ì •ë™ wrote: > > Thank you, Lou > > Please, see the lines starting with [JR] for my responses to your comments. > > I removed the parts that we have already agreed on. I also erased your comments that are minor editorial and will be reflected in the next version as you suggested. The two “assigned” related comments are not covered here as they are being discussed with Yaacov. > > Best regards, > > Jeong-dong > > ****** > > (4) Page 7, the first paragraph: > OLD: > the resources for the protection path are fully committed, > NEW > the resources for the protection path are fully dedicated, > > Dedicated is also an ambiguous term, how about: > OLD > the resources for the protection path are fully committed, the > protection path in the case of SMP consists of segments that are > dedicated to the protection of the related working path and also > NEW > the resources for the protection path are fully allocated, the > protection path in the case of SMP consists of segments that are > allocated to the protection of the related working path and also > > [JR] This paragraph describes the difference between linear protection and shared mesh protection from the perspective of protection resource sharing. In linear protection switching, the resources are not shared but dedicated to the protection path. SMP has shared resources in some segments. I think the word, “dedicated” is general enough to be used without any further definition. RFC 6372 also uses “dedicated“, and this document follows the same use as in RFC 6372 I think the (new) first usage of dedicated in paragraph is fine, it's the second I have a real issue with. I suggested changing both to avoid the term altogether. The way "dedicated" is used in the second sentence is in the context of SMP, while RFC6372 uses "dedicated" the context of "Dedicated Protection" which is contrasted with "Shared Protection". How about: NEW the resources for the protection path are fully dedicated, the protection path in the case of SMP consists of segments that are used for protection of the related working path and also > > > (7) The second paragraph of Section 4.1: > OLD: > When the reserved resources of the shared segments are committed to a > particular protection path, there may not be sufficient resources > available for an additional protection path. This then implies that > if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a protection > switch, the commitment of the resources may fail. In order to > optimize the operation of the commitment and preparing for cases of > multiple working paths failing, the commitment of the shared > resources are be coordinated between the different working paths in > the SMP network. > NEW: > When the reserved resources of the shared segments are utilized by a > particular protection path, there may not be sufficient resources > available for an additional protection path. This then implies that > if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a protection > switch, the resource utilization coordination may fail. The different working paths in > the SMP network are involved in the resource utilization coordination. > > > This is fine, but I wonder why you are using "resource utilization" vs "protection switch"? (this is actually a bit of a general comment -- I the latter is an existing applicable term that would help readers how this document fits in to the technology space.) > > [JR] As described in an earlier part of this section, SMP protection consists of two operations: traffic switchover and resource utilization coordination. The sentences are about the resource utilization coordination, and “resource utilization” seems to be more accurate. Is "resource utilization coordination" done via some form of inter-node coordination? If yes, then I think my comment holds. If no, then I think you should elabotate on how the "coordination" in this case differes from how you use "coordination" elsewhere in the document. Either way, I think we've discussed this enough, i.e., I won't push this point further. > > > - General comment: fate-sharing for co-routed bidirectional LSP > protection: How is co-routing preserved for the reverse path in SMP? > I'd assumed the protection switch coordination protocol would be > required to trigger a switchover of the reverse LSP in the co-routed > case, but don't see this in the document. > [Authors] Fate-sharing is not required by this document. Even in the PSC linear protection switching, such as RFC 6378 (PSC) and RFC 7271 (PSC in APS mode), fate-sharing is not required as unidirectional switching is allowed. This document does not impose any restriction on co-routing, either. > > > Both RFC4427 and 6372 mention this (Bi-directional recovery switching in the former). I think this document really needs to mention something on the topic. Given the 6372 a "MAY" level requirement is probably sufficient, but this should be confirmed with the WG. (I personally would like SHOULD as this seems to better match 6372's text "operator often requires...".) > > [JR] O.K. I guess that mandating bidirectional switching does not mean that unidirectional switching is prohibited. What we can do is that, after changing the title of Section 5.4. from “Revertive protection switching” to “Reversion and Fate-sharing”, one paragraph with the following sentence will be added: “Bidirectional protection switching SHOULD be supported in SMP.” The topics are essentially orthognal, i.e., supporting one without the other is completly reasonable. If you don't want to add a dedicated section, then Sections 5.7, 5.3 and perhaps even 5.5 are better choices. > > > - In section 4 and 5.2 you reference 5712 and 3209 as defining > preemption terminology and behavior. I think 6372 is the right > reference here as it defines both in the context of survivability and > in dependent of control plane. > [Authors] One concern is that RFC 6372 describes both soft and hard preemptions in the context of extra traffic, which is not exactly the case for SMP. > > Then 6372 should be referenced and the difference should be described. Otherwise readers are likely to think you just used the wrong reference and that 6372's text applies. 6372 is after all titled "MPLS-TP Survivability Framework"... > > [JR] O.K. 6372 will be referenced and we can add the following sentence as the third sentence in the paragraph: “The traffic of lower priority paths in this document can be viewed as the extra traffic being preempted in [RFC6372].” great. > > > - Section 4.1. You say "two operations simultaneously". Do you really > mean "simultaneously" or merely that they must both occur for > protection to be provided? (Same comment in section 5.1. > [Authors] Both actions should occur at the same time, or as closely as possible to provide fast protection. > > What text change is planned? > > [JR] We can erase “simultaneously” and add the sentence (“Both operations should occur at the same time, or as closely as possible to provide fast protection.”) as the second sentence of the paragraph. WFM. > > > > - Section 5.2: First paragraph and forth bullet last sentence. These > both basically cover the same topic (preemption) and actually say > slightly different things. I suggest combine into a single > requirement to ensure consistency and full coverage of the topic. > [Authors] The first paragraph is for soft-preemption, while the fourth bullet belongs to the requirements of hard-preemption. > > Do you plan a text change? (the 1st paragraph should be a list item and soft-preemption is mentioned as a parenthetical , and the forth doesn't mention its scope as hard preemption.) > > [JR] OK. We can make them clear. How about the following arrangement? > > 5.2. Multiple triggers > > If more than one working path is triggering a protection switch such > that a protection segment is oversubscribed, there are two different > actions that the SMP network can choose – soft preemption and hard > preemption. > > 5.2.1. Soft-preemption > > For networks that support multiplexing packets over the shared segments, the requirement is: > > O All of the protection paths MAY be allowed to share the resources > of the shared segments > > 5.2.2 Hard-preemption > > There are networks that require the exclusive use of the protection > resources when a protection segment is oversubscribed. > Traffic of lower priority paths is completely blocked. > These include networks that support the requirements in [RFC5654], > and in particular support requirement 58. For such networks, > the following requirements apply: > > O ... > > O ... > I think this will work. Thanks, Lou ... From nobody Thu Jul 10 08:50:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3899B1A035C; Wed, 9 Jul 2014 23:55:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.252 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.252 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id meox6gttRAD5; Wed, 9 Jul 2014 23:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpeg.etri.re.kr (smtpeg1.etri.re.kr [129.254.27.141]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E4EA1A0359; Wed, 9 Jul 2014 23:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SMTP4.etri.info (129.254.28.74) by SMTPEG1.etri.info (129.254.27.141) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.355.2; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 15:55:07 +0900 Received: from SMTP2.etri.info ([169.254.2.160]) by SMTP4.etri.info ([10.2.6.33]) with mapi id 14.01.0355.002; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 15:55:04 +0900 From: =?utf-8?B?66WY7KCV64+Z?= To: Lou Berger , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] [mpls] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt Thread-Index: AQHPjWn3yaQ2bqHMa0u/oexBdb3lpJuPKTU+gAHv9wCAB+MbNg== Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 06:55:03 +0000 Message-ID: <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749702@SMTP2.etri.info> References: <53A5ABED.9080408@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28748144@SMTP2.etri.info>, <53B8190E.6080505@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <53B8190E.6080505@labn.net> Accept-Language: ko-KR, en-US Content-Language: ko-KR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.4.85] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 08:49:47 -0700 Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [RTG-DIR] =?euc-kr?b?yLi9xTogIFttcGxzXSBSdGdEaXIgcmV2aWV3OiBkcmFm?= =?euc-kr?q?t-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 07:52:13 -0000 TG91IGFuZCBZYWFjb3YsDQoNCkhlcmUgaXMgbXkgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbiBvbiB0aG9zZSB0d28gYnVs bGV0IGl0ZW0gdGV4dHMgcmVsYXRlZCB0byAiYXNzaWduZWQiLg0KDQpBcyBpbiBteSBlYXJsaWVy IGVtYWlsIHRvIExvdSdzIGZvbGxvd3VwIGNvbW1lbnRzLCANCndlIGNhbiBtYWtlIHR3byBzdWIg c2VjdGlvbnMgdW5kZXIgdGhpcyBTZWN0aW9uIDUuMi4gDQphbmQgdGl0bGUgdGhlbSBhcyAiNS4y LjEgU29mdCBwcmVlbXB0aW9uIiBhbmQgIjUuMi4yIEhhcmQgcHJlZW1wdGlvbiIuIA0KVGhvc2Ug 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<5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28748144@SMTP2.etri.info>, <53B8190E.6080505@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749702@SMTP2.etri.info>, <53BE7F3B.9010005@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <53BE7F3B.9010005@labn.net> Accept-Language: ko-KR, en-US Content-Language: ko-KR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [129.254.26.37] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/vl1QTYE72XJWDqcMrqRRorGtYk0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 08:49:47 -0700 Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org" , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [RTG-DIR] =?utf-8?b?7ZqM7IugOiDtmozsi6A6ICBbbXBsc10gUnRnRGlyIHJl?= =?utf-8?q?view=3A_draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: 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ZW50cyBpbiBbUkZDNTY1NF0sDQo+IGFuZCBpbiBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyIHN1cHBvcnQgcmVxdWlyZW1l bnQgNTguIEZvciBzdWNoIG5ldHdvcmtzLA0KPiB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBh cHBseToNCj4NCj4gTyAuLi4NCj4NCj4gTyAuLi4NCj4NCg0KSSB0aGluayB0aGlzIHdpbGwgd29y ay4NCg0KVGhhbmtzLA0KTG91DQoNCi4uLg0KDQo= From nobody Thu Jul 10 08:50:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 459B31A0546; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 07:01:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -95.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-95.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_91=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com 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X19fX19fX19fDQo+PiAgICAgbXBscyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4+ICAgICBtcGxzQGlldGYub3Jn IDxtYWlsdG86bXBsc0BpZXRmLm9yZz4NCj4+ICAgICBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWls bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL21wbHMNCj4+DQo+PiAgICAgX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+ICAgICBtcGxzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj4gICAgIG1w bHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgPG1haWx0bzptcGxzQGlldGYub3JnPg0KPj4gICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbXBscw0KPj4NCg0K From nobody Thu Jul 10 13:05:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73D521B29AB; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 13:05:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1i6alAcNirnT; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 13:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1lp0139.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.139]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7941D1B29A8; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 13:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLUPR05MB562.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.202.141) by BLUPR05MB562.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.202.141) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.980.8; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 20:05:42 +0000 Received: from BLUPR05MB562.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.202.141]) by BLUPR05MB562.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.202.141]) with mapi id 15.00.0980.000; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 20:05:42 +0000 From: John E Drake To: "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-l2vpn-etree-frwk-06.txt Thread-Index: Ac+cdCxlkUqZZ2i0RBSAIPtolwe6aw== Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 20:05:42 +0000 Message-ID: <49da5e94288044e6bac36dc58013f0b1@BLUPR05MB562.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID: x-forefront-prvs: 0268246AE7 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(6009001)(377424004)(199002)(189002)(83322001)(50986999)(85852003)(101416001)(21056001)(85306003)(99396002)(105586002)(95666004)(19580395003)(15975445006)(106356001)(83072002)(2351001)(64706001)(86362001)(99286002)(110136001)(66066001)(77982001)(80022001)(46102001)(92566001)(4396001)(74662001)(87936001)(20776003)(81342001)(74502001)(2656002)(54356999)(229853001)(76482001)(76576001)(74316001)(107046002)(79102001)(15202345003)(33646001)(31966008)(81542001)(108616002)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:; SCL:1; SRVR:BLUPR05MB562; H:BLUPR05MB562.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/7jvP1YpeeBU77t0ok1E3UuUwJhg Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-l2vpn-etree-frwk.all@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-l2vpn-etree-frwk-06.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 20:05:48 -0000 Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. Th= e Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts= as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on spec= ial request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Rout= ing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see htt= p://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it wo= uld be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Ca= ll comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion= or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-l2vpn-etree-frwk-06.txt Reviewer: John Drake Review Date: July 10 2014 IETF LC End Date: 2014-07-13 Intended Status: Informational Summary: =20 The document is ready for publication. Comments: I think the document is well written and easily understood. =20 Major Issues: Major issues are the type of concerns that will result in the document being blocked until they are resolved. The Routing ADs will become involved. Please include all of the major issues you have found. Give as much context information as possible (e.g., section numbers, paragraph counts). If you find no major issues, please write: "No major issues found." No major issues found Minor Issues: Minor issues are concerns about clarity or technical accuracy that should be discussed and resolved before publication, but which would normally be resolved between the authors and the reviewers. Please include all of the minor issues you have found. Give as much context information as possible (e.g., section numbers, paragraph counts). If you find no minor issues, please write: "No minor issues found." No minor issues found Nits: None Yours Irrespectively, John From nobody Fri Jul 11 12:10:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02E631A0B11 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2014 12:10:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.367 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.367 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UywLb-Z4WQFE for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2014 12:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.33.93]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D721D1A0AE8 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2014 12:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11779 invoked by uid 0); 11 Jul 2014 19:10:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw4) (10.0.90.85) by gproxy8.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 11 Jul 2014 19:10:10 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw4 with id RDA01o01T2SSUrH01DA3Sk; Fri, 11 Jul 2014 19:10:08 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=OcELUHjY c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=ZSdzdHkL1-cA:10 a=zCehyBWSIz4A:10 a=HFCU6gKsb0MA:10 a=jPJDawAOAc8A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=wU2YTnxGAAAA:8 a=cNaOj0WVAAAA:8 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=uEJ9t1CZtbIA:10 a=XKRAzt7loxlGrBEaZkYA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=33rK67OTR_gA:10 a=Flg0Rsxmn5MA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=FuDokubYgHNNcktFSkueE4DTPGz6M7331E71WQS+Eqo=; b=Yv8V0DW5XmnFuqs8hZoAFlIYB0FmN+QZ4jaXUoeGJ9o1xoIVph2s+ET5mKoiU8QeXS+JAwoSSXg71XnZjelo1Ka+KeF1tnuv/EhCteeeLIcZAu3eIJ6MYQ8p33aeTUTP; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:60059 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1X5gCo-000532-88; Fri, 11 Jul 2014 13:10:02 -0600 Message-ID: <53C03687.2000007@labn.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 15:09:59 -0400 From: Lou Berger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?66WY7KCV64+Z?= References: <53A5ABED.9080408@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28748144@SMTP2.etri.info>, <53B8190E.6080505@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749702@SMTP2.etri.info>, <53BE7F3B.9010005@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749804@SMTP2.etri.info> In-Reply-To: <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749804@SMTP2.etri.info> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/ZRdri1TnKFhc7uf0mdQy8kUwT9E Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] =?utf-8?b?7ZqM7IugOiDtmozsi6A6ICBbbXBsc10gUnRnRGlyIHJl?= =?utf-8?q?view=3A_draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 19:10:15 -0000 Thank you -- just one response and suggested change. Lou On 07/10/2014 09:43 AM, 류정동 wrote: > Lou, > > Thank you for agreeing on most of the suggestions. > Please, see the lines starting with [JR2] below. > > Best regards, > > Jeong-dong > > > ________________________________________ > 보낸 사람: Lou Berger [lberger@labn.net] ... >> This is fine, but I wonder why you are using "resource utilization" vs > "protection switch"? (this is actually a bit of a general comment -- I > the latter is an existing applicable term that would help readers how > this document fits in to the technology space.) >> >> [JR] As described in an earlier part of this section, SMP protection > consists of two operations: traffic switchover and resource utilization > coordination. The sentences are about the resource utilization > coordination, and “resource utilization” seems to be more accurate. > > Is "resource utilization coordination" done via some form of inter-node > coordination? If yes, then I think my comment holds. If no, then I > think you should elabotate on how the "coordination" in this case > differes from how you use "coordination" elsewhere in the document. > Either way, I think we've discussed this enough, i.e., I won't push this > point further. > > [JR2] "resource utilization coorination" occurs between the nodes as in other protection switching. "resource utilization coordination" is a part of whole SMP protection switching coordination and is meant to emphasize that coordination is for resource utilization. Of course, the reason why it does resource utilization coordination is to complete protection switching eventually. > Okay. I think adding something along the lines of ""resource utilization coordination" is a part of whole SMP protection switching coordination " to the text would clarify your intent to future readers. ... 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RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IEKFe8RU4oJo; Fri, 11 Jul 2014 13:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpeg.etri.re.kr (smtpeg1.etri.re.kr [129.254.27.141]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D2DF1B29AC; Fri, 11 Jul 2014 13:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SMTP1.etri.info (129.254.28.71) by SMTPEG1.etri.info (129.254.27.141) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.355.2; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 05:45:33 +0900 Received: from SMTP2.etri.info ([169.254.2.160]) by SMTP1.etri.info ([10.2.6.30]) with mapi id 14.01.0355.002; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 05:45:32 +0900 From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?t/nBpLW/?= To: Lou Berger , Yaacov Weingarten Thread-Topic: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W1JURy1ESVJdIMi4vcU6IMi4vcU6ICBbbXBsc10gUnRnRGlyIHJl?= 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"rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" Subject: [RTG-DIR] =?euc-kr?b?yLi9xTogIMi4vcU6IMi4vcU6ICBbbXBsc10gUnRnRGly?= =?euc-kr?q?_review=3A_draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 20:45:42 -0000 TG91LCANCg0KSSBoYXZlIG5vIHByb2JsZW0gd2l0aCBjaGFuZ2luZyBhcyB5b3Ugc3VnZ2VzdGVk Lg0KQWdhaW4sIHRoYW5rcyBmb3IgeW91ciBoZWxwLg0KDQpCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsDQoNCkplb25n LWRvbmcNCg0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQq6uLO9 ILvntvc6IExvdSBCZXJnZXIgW2xiZXJnZXJAbGFibi5uZXRdDQq6uLO9ILOvwqU6IDIwMTSz4iA3 v/kgMTLAzyDF5L/kwM8gv8DA/CA0OjEyDQq53rTCILvntvc6ILf5waS1vzsgWWFhY292IFdlaW5n YXJ0ZW4NCsL8wbY6IG1wbHNAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtbXBscy1zbXAtcmVxdWlyZW1l 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h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=drZQQW/fovSqJ0ECkPZdgtKJ/FhJ1NEc18SUkLeN1Xs=; b=hMSYIKN7RvKmA3NhyXRaqcDZu+4jREqVIEtnCNe9N733TdM0T0PrJUx1n6igp0g+8T997oFq6NQJXbUp1jnKNXs6OQWf/ukuPnv3jTpFBi+KFVQOz64Bw3PLeMHyqy1Y; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:37479 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1X6i7B-0007TZ-Nc; Mon, 14 Jul 2014 09:24:29 -0600 Message-ID: <53C3F62A.8030903@labn.net> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 11:24:26 -0400 From: Lou Berger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?EUC-KR?B?t/nBpLW/?= References: <53A5ABED.9080408@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28748144@SMTP2.etri.info>, <53B8190E.6080505@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749702@SMTP2.etri.info>, <53BE7F3B.9010005@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749804@SMTP2.etri.info>, <53C03687.2000007@labn.net>, <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749B0A@SMTP2.etri.info> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749B31@SMTP2.etri.info> In-Reply-To: <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749B31@SMTP2.etri.info> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/1X2TxN6u0Hw2OG2PFAC5PB0tmCA Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org" , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] =?euc-kr?b?yLi9xTogIMi4vcU6IMi4vcU6ICBbbXBsc10gUnRnRGly?= =?euc-kr?q?_review=3A_draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 15:24:45 -0000 Jeong-dong, Unless I missed something, I think we've closed all topics. Agreed? Much thanks, Lou On 07/11/2014 05:00 PM, wrote: > Lou, > > I sent the previous email without showing the proposed text. > The last sentence of the last paragraph in Section 4.1 will be: > ------ > When the reserved resources of the shared segments are utilized by > a particular protection path, there may not be sufficient resources > available for an additional protection path. This then implies that > if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a protection > switch, the resource utilization coordination may fail. > The different working paths in the SMP network are involved in the resource > utilization coordination, which is a part of whole SMP protection switching coordination. > ------ > Please, let me know if there is someting to improve. > > Best regards, > > Jeong-dong > > > ________________________________________ > : > ¥: 2014 7 12 5:44 > ޴ : Lou Berger > : rtg-dir@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org; rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org > : ȸ: [RTG-DIR] ȸ: ȸ: [mpls] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt > > Lou, > > Certainly, it can be done as you suggested. > I also think that your suggested change would help the readibility of this document. > Thanks a lot for your help. > > Best regards, > > Jeong-dong > > > > ________________________________________ > : Lou Berger [lberger@labn.net] > ¥: 2014 7 12 4:09 > ޴ : > : rtg-dir@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org; rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org > : Re: [RTG-DIR] ȸ: ȸ: [mpls] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt > > Thank you -- just one response and suggested change. > > Lou > > On 07/10/2014 09:43 AM, wrote: >> Lou, >> >> Thank you for agreeing on most of the suggestions. >> Please, see the lines starting with [JR2] below. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Jeong-dong >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> : Lou Berger [lberger@labn.net] > ... >>> This is fine, but I wonder why you are using "resource utilization" vs >> "protection switch"? (this is actually a bit of a general comment -- I >> the latter is an existing applicable term that would help readers how >> this document fits in to the technology space.) >>> >>> [JR] As described in an earlier part of this section, SMP protection >> consists of two operations: traffic switchover and resource utilization >> coordination. The sentences are about the resource utilization >> coordination, and resource utilization seems to be more accurate. >> >> Is "resource utilization coordination" done via some form of inter-node >> coordination? If yes, then I think my comment holds. If no, then I >> think you should elabotate on how the "coordination" in this case >> differes from how you use "coordination" elsewhere in the document. >> Either way, I think we've discussed this enough, i.e., I won't push this >> point further. >> >> [JR2] "resource utilization coorination" occurs between the nodes as in other protection switching. "resource utilization coordination" is a part of whole SMP protection switching coordination and is meant to emphasize that coordination is for resource utilization. Of course, the reason why it does resource utilization coordination is to complete protection switching eventually. >> > > Okay. I think adding something along the lines of ""resource utilization > coordination" is a part of whole SMP protection switching coordination " > to the text would clarify your intent to future readers. > ... > From nobody Tue Jul 15 00:14:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 417F81B27EC; Mon, 14 Jul 2014 17:56:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JC_caB4swp5g; Mon, 14 Jul 2014 17:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpeg.etri.re.kr 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<53B8190E.6080505@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749702@SMTP2.etri.info>, <53BE7F3B.9010005@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749804@SMTP2.etri.info>, <53C03687.2000007@labn.net>, <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749B0A@SMTP2.etri.info> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749B31@SMTP2.etri.info>, <53C3F62A.8030903@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <53C3F62A.8030903@labn.net> Accept-Language: ko-KR, en-US Content-Language: ko-KR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-new-displayname: SmVvbmcgUnlvbw== x-originating-ip: [129.254.28.41] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749F56SMTP2etriinfo_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/MXss-ttnR7-PuQeQEDVzoGVqnBo X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 00:14:38 -0700 Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org" , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] 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YXkuIEkgdGhpbmsgYWRkaW5nIHNvbWV0aGluZyBhbG9uZyB0aGUgbGluZXMgb2YgJnF1b3Q7JnF1 b3Q7cmVzb3VyY2UgdXRpbGl6YXRpb248YnI+DQomZ3Q7IGNvb3JkaW5hdGlvbiZxdW90OyBpcyBh IHBhcnQgb2Ygd2hvbGUgU01QIHByb3RlY3Rpb24gc3dpdGNoaW5nIGNvb3JkaW5hdGlvbiAmcXVv dDs8YnI+DQomZ3Q7IHRvIHRoZSB0ZXh0IHdvdWxkIGNsYXJpZnkgeW91ciBpbnRlbnQgdG8gZnV0 dXJlIHJlYWRlcnMuPGJyPg0KJmd0OyAuLi48YnI+DQomZ3Q7IDxicj4NCjxicj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0K PC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28749F56SMTP2etriinfo_-- From nobody Thu Jul 17 02:00:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C221A0164; Thu, 17 Jul 2014 02:00:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, GB_ABOUTYOU=0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qtBysORQAKGd; Thu, 17 Jul 2014 02:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (asmtp2.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.249]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41B231A011E; Thu, 17 Jul 2014 02:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s6H8R61t012352; Thu, 17 Jul 2014 09:27:06 +0100 Received: from 950129200 (dsl-sp-81-140-15-32.in-addr.broadbandscope.com [81.140.15.32]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s6H8R5GW012346 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 17 Jul 2014 09:27:06 +0100 From: "Adrian Farrel" To: , , Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 09:27:10 +0100 Message-ID: <03c501cfa198$e7c6f370$b754da50$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac+hmOS2BGbE6mcYRk+Itxz2a0ycfQ== Content-Language: en-gb X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.1.0.1576-7.5.0.1017-20822.005 X-TM-AS-Result: No--2.271-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--2.271-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: dbwu/f0cqRo6SNANGjU5lNPNaYYJeRf5fS0Ip2eEHny+qryzYw2E8M4b ajgO0kgvgZK4jdUf7rU+Aoot6UqUmMRB0bsfrpPIcSqbxBgG0w7myCUQ3qrOJN3UfQdioOnab60 IPG+mHcoTWtROkTeuhiXidVjAhEZBrX7cmKNisA4yqaEb8zSjj/QwfDO7YmjAf+weolWHdq6UTG VAhB5EbQ== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/ERuOahMt2ege0gAvIxIKga81Trw Cc: 'Alia Atlas' Subject: [RTG-DIR] RTG ADs' office hours in Toronto X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 09:00:44 -0000 Hi, Sunday 14.30-16.00 in "Alberta" Just drop in and talk to us about your routing concerns. Alia and Adrian From nobody Mon Jul 21 08:03:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B905F1A0178; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:03:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D1OX1vo14iJ2; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailc1.tigertech.net (mailc1.tigertech.net [208.80.4.155]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D307F1A00F1; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailc1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5DB3121C4F; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:02:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at c1.tigertech.net Received: from [107.18.111.72] (69-165-189-130.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.165.189.130]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailc1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 460DE121C56; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.0 \(1962.2\)) From: Thomas Heide Clausen In-Reply-To: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 17:02:38 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> To: Adrian Farrel X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1962.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/R2LC6TKvup_5KtOAR4mS7ngXnuk Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 15:03:21 -0000 Hey A^2, I may have missed it, but was there a room announced for this event =E2=80= =94 or, is the recommended to stalk either of you after the morning = sessions, and see where that takes us? Cheers, Thomas =20 > On 24 Jun 2014, at 22:14 , Adrian Farrel wrote: >=20 > Chairs and Directorate, >=20 > Alia and I have blocked out a slot in Toronto for you to come and = discuss Area > reorganisation with us. >=20 > We have found Tuesday 12.00 to 14.00 doesn't conflict with any RTG WG = meetings, > so we suggest "grab lunch and come along". Room to be announced. >=20 > The meeting will not be announced wider than this grouping, but will = not be a > private meeting so it is possible that other will drift in. We will = not throw > them out! >=20 > Thanks for the discussions on the various lists so far and please stay = engaged. >=20 > Adrian and Alia >=20 From nobody Mon Jul 21 08:54:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16D7E1A02DE; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:54:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ziHgVdN6JBwA; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x229.google.com (mail-yk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D6C31A0270; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yk0-f169.google.com with SMTP id 131so4084698ykp.14 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:54:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=TXGId2iOXQ5YWND1eHD+W/0/UNmXxIfTYXSz1g8qgOI=; b=Ri6q2CcOozJev4zN3VoafdcQvVKrtsJfvkxfu3uktrg9snbZytJWIEfR61a+P7cYOT hltJTePlzagqtDV+QTb2YKveFGUwqeUVy4qiMcs92KE/8j8Aw1GI+tqNCiwKFye0qZIs PfI73mJH0Q8K1/f1G4LNcVMQ1e/cReFjWiKmBpvGYIlu8bXEn1HtfbVRjcUo4M3LQLku u5AlyXdwF2c5oZn8N0iEs7SGUYCu9nM2vzjB5w3UQcX7KSogzhqoEtDWN0109HxSxlMV kPd3APeDyp7SsRfgQJ1/ToUNXuxl87ceWRqsilyiKc0MXk3Frvt/J3uG53MDfW4bBqKk UG3w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.103.135 with SMTP id f7mr41947833yhg.102.1405958054257; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.170.130.201 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.170.130.201 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:54:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 11:54:13 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Thomas Clausen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11332a2e64ad8204feb61e44 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/tQZZoayFQrwEPACV_KfF8lhSeic Cc: Adrian Farrel , rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 15:54:18 -0000 --001a11332a2e64ad8204feb61e44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The meeting is on Tuesday from 12pm to 2pm in the Quebec room. Thanks for the reminder to send it the room info. Alia On Jul 21, 2014 11:03 AM, "Thomas Heide Clausen" wrote: > Hey A^2, > > I may have missed it, but was there a room announced for this event =E2= =80=94 or, > is the recommended to stalk either of you after the morning sessions, and > see where that takes us? > > Cheers, > > Thomas > > > On 24 Jun 2014, at 22:14 , Adrian Farrel wrote: > > > > Chairs and Directorate, > > > > Alia and I have blocked out a slot in Toronto for you to come and > discuss Area > > reorganisation with us. > > > > We have found Tuesday 12.00 to 14.00 doesn't conflict with any RTG WG > meetings, > > so we suggest "grab lunch and come along". Room to be announced. > > > > The meeting will not be announced wider than this grouping, but will no= t > be a > > private meeting so it is possible that other will drift in. We will not > throw > > them out! > > > > Thanks for the discussions on the various lists so far and please stay > engaged. > > > > Adrian and Alia > > > > --001a11332a2e64ad8204feb61e44 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The meeting is on Tuesday from 12pm to 2pm in the Quebec roo= m.

Thanks for the reminder to send it the room info.

Alia

On Jul 21, 2014 11:03 AM, "Thomas Heide Cla= usen" <thomas@thomascla= usen.org> wrote:
Hey A^2,

I may have missed it, but was there a room announced for this event =E2=80= =94 or, is the recommended to stalk either of you after the morning session= s, and see where that takes us?

Cheers,

Thomas

> On 24 Jun 2014, at 22:14 , Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Chairs and Directorate,
>
> Alia and I have blocked out a slot in Toronto for you to come and disc= uss Area
> reorganisation with us.
>
> We have found Tuesday 12.00 to 14.00 doesn't conflict with any RTG= WG meetings,
> so we suggest "grab lunch and come along". Room to be announ= ced.
>
> The meeting will not be announced wider than this grouping, but will n= ot be a
> private meeting so it is possible that other will drift in. We will no= t throw
> them out!
>
> Thanks for the discussions on the various lists so far and please stay= engaged.
>
> Adrian and Alia
>

--001a11332a2e64ad8204feb61e44-- From nobody Mon Jul 21 08:57:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F771A02F7; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:57:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o6eoiWUbW5-3; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailc1.tigertech.net (mailc1.tigertech.net [208.80.4.155]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7B7A1A0270; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailc1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64DCB121C4B; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:57:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at c1.tigertech.net Received: from [107.18.111.72] (69-165-189-130.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.165.189.130]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailc1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9B661121BA8; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 08:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A9A6BBA4-92BF-4338-AFBD-F709592B57C9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.0 \(1962.2\)) From: Thomas Heide Clausen In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 17:57:19 +0200 Message-Id: References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> To: Alia Atlas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1962.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/2QImMPgI86y6jAFZ2z7ejyTE9Nc Cc: Adrian Farrel , rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 15:57:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A9A6BBA4-92BF-4338-AFBD-F709592B57C9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Awesome, Alia, thanks a ton. See all y'all tomorrow, then. Thomas > On 21 Jul 2014, at 17:54 , Alia Atlas wrote: >=20 > The meeting is on Tuesday from 12pm to 2pm in the Quebec room. >=20 > Thanks for the reminder to send it the room info. >=20 > Alia >=20 > On Jul 21, 2014 11:03 AM, "Thomas Heide Clausen" = wrote: > Hey A^2, >=20 > I may have missed it, but was there a room announced for this event = =E2=80=94 or, is the recommended to stalk either of you after the = morning sessions, and see where that takes us? >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Thomas >=20 > > On 24 Jun 2014, at 22:14 , Adrian Farrel = wrote: > > > > Chairs and Directorate, > > > > Alia and I have blocked out a slot in Toronto for you to come and = discuss Area > > reorganisation with us. > > > > We have found Tuesday 12.00 to 14.00 doesn't conflict with any RTG = WG meetings, > > so we suggest "grab lunch and come along". Room to be announced. > > > > The meeting will not be announced wider than this grouping, but will = not be a > > private meeting so it is possible that other will drift in. We will = not throw > > them out! > > > > Thanks for the discussions on the various lists so far and please = stay engaged. > > > > Adrian and Alia > > >=20 --Apple-Mail=_A9A6BBA4-92BF-4338-AFBD-F709592B57C9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Awesome, Alia, thanks a ton. See all y'all tomorrow, = then.

Thomas

On 21 Jul 2014, at 17:54 , Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> = wrote:

The meeting is on Tuesday from 12pm to 2pm in the Quebec = room.

Thanks for the reminder to send it the room = info.

Alia

On Jul 21, 2014 11:03 AM, "Thomas Heide = Clausen" <thomas@thomasclausen.org> = wrote:
Hey A^2,

I may have missed it, but was there a room announced for this event =E2=80= =94 or, is the recommended to stalk either of you after the morning = sessions, and see where that takes us?

Cheers,

Thomas

> On 24 Jun 2014, at 22:14 , Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> = wrote:
>
> Chairs and Directorate,
>
> Alia and I have blocked out a slot in Toronto for you to come and = discuss Area
> reorganisation with us.
>
> We have found Tuesday 12.00 to 14.00 doesn't conflict with any RTG = WG meetings,
> so we suggest "grab lunch and come along". Room to be = announced.
>
> The meeting will not be announced wider than this grouping, but = will not be a
> private meeting so it is possible that other will drift in. We will = not throw
> them out!
>
> Thanks for the discussions on the various lists so far and please = stay engaged.
>
> Adrian and Alia
>


= --Apple-Mail=_A9A6BBA4-92BF-4338-AFBD-F709592B57C9-- From nobody Tue Jul 22 03:02:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D961A0AB0; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 03:02:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j9HIU6BxwSjr; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 03:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emea01-am1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am1lp0013.outbound.protection.outlook.com [213.199.154.13]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16D551A032A; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 03:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.242.110.144) by AM3PR03MB609.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.242.109.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.990.7; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 10:02:37 +0000 Received: from AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.110.144]) by AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.110.144]) with mapi id 15.00.0990.007; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 10:02:37 +0000 From: Alexander Vainshtein To: Thomas Heide Clausen , Alia Atlas Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto Thread-Index: AQHPpZQQS5sHzN6ifEu+KGg5a693sg== Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 10:02:36 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [95.35.50.33] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID: x-forefront-prvs: 02801ACE41 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(199002)(189002)(51704005)(24454002)(377454003)(51914003)(479174003)(80022001)(50986999)(54356999)(99396002)(19580405001)(95666004)(74316001)(76482001)(107046002)(83322001)(106356001)(101416001)(74662001)(46102001)(105586002)(74502001)(77982001)(33646002)(66066001)(87936001)(31966008)(19580395003)(64706001)(86362001)(106116001)(76576001)(16236675004)(4396001)(81342001)(85852003)(20776003)(92566001)(83072002)(85306003)(81542001)(21056001)(79102001)(2656002)(108616002)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:; SCL:1; SRVR:AM3PR03MB609; H:AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:3; LANG:en; Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d9cb3b39e72d48eea013b6e4193f06dcAM3PR03MB612eurprd03pro_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ecitele.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/auoF9oJ5AEgDkAmelv0-an3w2ac Cc: Adrian Farrel , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 10:02:46 -0000 --_000_d9cb3b39e72d48eea013b6e4193f06dcAM3PR03MB612eurprd03pro_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QWxpYSwgQWRyaWFuLA0KDQpJcyB0aGVyZSBhbnkgd2F5IHRvIGNvbm5lY3QgcmVtb3RlbHk/DQoN Cg0KDQpUaHVtYiB0eXBlZCBvbiBteSBMRywNClNhc2hhDQoNCi0tLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBtZXNz YWdlIC0tLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogVGhvbWFzIEhlaWRlIENsYXVzZW4NCkRhdGU6IDIxLzA3LzIwMTQg MTg6NTcNClRvOiBBbGlhIEF0bGFzOw0KQ2M6IEFkcmlhbiBGYXJyZWw7cnRnLWRpckBpZXRmLm9y ZztydGctY2hhaXJzQGlldGYub3JnOw0KU3ViamVjdDpSZTogW1JURy1ESVJdIENvbnN1bHRhdGl2 ZSBTZXNzaW9uIG9uIFJURyBSZW9yZyBpbiBUb3JvbnRvDQoNCkF3ZXNvbWUsIEFsaWEsIHRoYW5r cyBhIHRvbi4gU2VlIGFsbCB5J2FsbCB0b21vcnJvdywgdGhlbi4NCg0KVGhvbWFzDQoNCk9uIDIx IEp1bCAyMDE0LCBhdCAxNzo1NCAsIEFsaWEgQXRsYXMgPGFrYXRsYXNAZ21haWwuY29tPG1haWx0 bzpha2F0bGFzQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQoNClRoZSBtZWV0aW5nIGlzIG9uIFR1ZXNk YXkgZnJvbSAxMnBtIHRvIDJwbSBpbiB0aGUgUXVlYmVjIHJvb20uDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhl IHJlbWluZGVyIHRvIHNlbmQgaXQgdGhlIHJvb20gaW5mby4NCg0KQWxpYQ0KDQpPbiBKdWwgMjEs IDIwMTQgMTE6MDMgQU0sICJUaG9tYXMgSGVpZGUgQ2xhdXNlbiIgPHRob21hc0B0aG9tYXNjbGF1 c2VuLm9yZzxtYWlsdG86dGhvbWFzQHRob21hc2NsYXVzZW4ub3JnPj4gd3JvdGU6DQpIZXkgQV4y LA0KDQpJIG1heSBoYXZlIG1pc3NlZCBpdCwgYnV0IHdhcyB0aGVyZSBhIHJvb20gYW5ub3VuY2Vk IGZvciB0aGlzIGV2ZW50IOKAlCBvciwgaXMgdGhlIHJlY29tbWVuZGVkIHRvIHN0YWxrIGVpdGhl ciBvZiB5b3UgYWZ0ZXIgdGhlIG1vcm5pbmcgc2Vzc2lvbnMsIGFuZCBzZWUgd2hlcmUgdGhhdCB0 YWtlcyB1cz8NCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KDQpUaG9tYXMNCg0KPiBPbiAyNCBKdW4gMjAxNCwgYXQgMjI6 MTQgLCBBZHJpYW4gRmFycmVsIDxhZHJpYW5Ab2xkZG9nLmNvLnVrPG1haWx0bzphZHJpYW5Ab2xk ZG9nLmNvLnVrPj4gd3JvdGU6DQo+DQo+IENoYWlycyBhbmQgRGlyZWN0b3JhdGUsDQo+DQo+IEFs aWEgYW5kIEkgaGF2ZSBibG9ja2VkIG91dCBhIHNsb3QgaW4gVG9yb250byBmb3IgeW91IHRvIGNv bWUgYW5kIGRpc2N1c3MgQXJlYQ0KPiByZW9yZ2FuaXNhdGlvbiB3aXRoIHVzLg0KPg0KPiBXZSBo YXZlIGZvdW5kIFR1ZXNkYXkgMTIuMDAgdG8gMTQuMDAgZG9lc24ndCBjb25mbGljdCB3aXRoIGFu eSBSVEcgV0cgbWVldGluZ3MsDQo+IHNvIHdlIHN1Z2dlc3QgImdyYWIgbHVuY2ggYW5kIGNvbWUg YWxvbmciLiBSb29tIHRvIGJlIGFubm91bmNlZC4NCj4NCj4gVGhlIG1lZXRpbmcgd2lsbCBub3Qg YmUgYW5ub3VuY2VkIHdpZGVyIHRoYW4gdGhpcyBncm91cGluZywgYnV0IHdpbGwgbm90IGJlIGEN Cj4gcHJpdmF0ZSBtZWV0aW5nIHNvIGl0IGlzIHBvc3NpYmxlIHRoYXQgb3RoZXIgd2lsbCBkcmlm dCBpbi4gV2Ugd2lsbCBub3QgdGhyb3cNCj4gdGhlbSBvdXQhDQo+DQo+IFRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhl IGRpc2N1c3Npb25zIG9uIHRoZSB2YXJpb3VzIGxpc3RzIHNvIGZhciBhbmQgcGxlYXNlIHN0YXkg ZW5nYWdlZC4NCj4NCj4gQWRyaWFuIGFuZCBBbGlhDQo+DQoNCg0K --_000_d9cb3b39e72d48eea013b6e4193f06dcAM3PR03MB612eurprd03pro_ Content-Type: text/html; 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Tue, 22 Jul 2014 05:52:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TjGgZBLnoefx; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 05:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x231.google.com (mail-we0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7F931A0B03; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 05:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f177.google.com with SMTP id w62so9016701wes.36 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 05:52:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=FqgfYnfMm5fEmknUHiipbOd/dlqEzf4M+8M7cNtN06M=; b=I/yiYLvrLspQOk49F7A0tflw9QeoKShnvxorA/kg0Hd1NpqJ+6fgNANfOUWB3ZUv82 Kdc61Xn+mYQluM1G0u0WO/GLImmztXjj2Fohkrz7gBHbH7vSoY186w2WZMyELuhUOskD FNU7d+sauFm5ZmnsJKixvF/Bm9+61xPFXb3/E3TxCcFn/2Tl6F1hD363o/jDio21ell/ b5MvEIn1/jFWhwe6rOFXMR1SQK5PygyQ+Qptwo5N92FyGF2oL4JwZTgxfRHVM5qrXnZq rOgpPe3G5pokGAymJvvWimT3knlUmirSsGGbdm2RCUozXH68o7Gc7KcUWtuU+ACqltZL iY3g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.58.199 with SMTP id t7mr34454832wjq.14.1406033553686; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 05:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.194.138 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 05:52:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 08:52:33 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Alexander Vainshtein Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bacc66482905704fec7b2b8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/WNvIj5YVTfbmAnGWhTc1jLOgkOk Cc: Adrian Farrel , Thomas Heide Clausen , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 12:52:40 -0000 --047d7bacc66482905704fec7b2b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sasha, No - sorry - but what we really want to hear are your opinions on the reorganization. Please just email them. Thanks, Alia On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Alexander Vainshtein < Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote: > Alia, Adrian, > > Is there any way to connect remotely? > > > Thumb typed on my LG, > Sasha > > > ------ Original message ------ > *From: *Thomas Heide Clausen > *Date: *21/07/2014 18:57 > *To: *Alia Atlas; > *Cc: *Adrian Farrel;rtg-dir@ietf.org;rtg-chairs@ietf.org; > *Subject:*Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto > > Awesome, Alia, thanks a ton. See all y'all tomorrow, then. > > Thomas > > On 21 Jul 2014, at 17:54 , Alia Atlas wrote: > > The meeting is on Tuesday from 12pm to 2pm in the Quebec room. > > Thanks for the reminder to send it the room info. > > Alia > On Jul 21, 2014 11:03 AM, "Thomas Heide Clausen" > wrote: > >> Hey A^2, >> >> I may have missed it, but was there a room announced for this event =E2= =80=94 or, >> is the recommended to stalk either of you after the morning sessions, an= d >> see where that takes us? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Thomas >> >> > On 24 Jun 2014, at 22:14 , Adrian Farrel wrote: >> > >> > Chairs and Directorate, >> > >> > Alia and I have blocked out a slot in Toronto for you to come and >> discuss Area >> > reorganisation with us. >> > >> > We have found Tuesday 12.00 to 14.00 doesn't conflict with any RTG WG >> meetings, >> > so we suggest "grab lunch and come along". Room to be announced. >> > >> > The meeting will not be announced wider than this grouping, but will >> not be a >> > private meeting so it is possible that other will drift in. We will no= t >> throw >> > them out! >> > >> > Thanks for the discussions on the various lists so far and please stay >> engaged. >> > >> > Adrian and Alia >> > >> >> > --047d7bacc66482905704fec7b2b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sasha,

No - sorry - but what we really = want to hear are your opinions on the reorganization. =C2=A0Please
just email them.

Thanks,
Alia


On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Alexand= er Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

Alia, Adrian,

Is there any way to connect remot= ely?

=C2=A0

Thumb typed on my LG,
Sasha


------ Original message ------
From:=C2=A0Thomas Heide Clausen
Date:=C2=A021/07/2014 18:57
To:=C2=A0Alia Atlas;
Cc:=C2=A0Adrian Farrel;rtg-dir@ietf.org;rtg-chairs@ietf.org;
Subject:Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto
Awesome, Alia, thanks a ton. See all y'all tomorrow, then.

Thomas

On 21 Jul 2014, at 17:54 , Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:

The meeting is on Tuesday from 12pm to 2pm in the Quebec roo= m.

Thanks for the reminder to send it the room info.

Alia

On Jul 21, 2014 11:03 AM, "Thomas Heide Cla= usen" <thomas@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
Hey A^2,

I may have missed it, but was there a room announced for this event =E2=80= =94 or, is the recommended to stalk either of you after the morning session= s, and see where that takes us?

Cheers,

Thomas

> On 24 Jun 2014, at 22:14 , Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Chairs and Directorate,
>
> Alia and I have blocked out a slot in Toronto for you to come and disc= uss Area
> reorganisation with us.
>
> We have found Tuesday 12.00 to 14.00 doesn't conflict with any RTG= WG meetings,
> so we suggest "grab lunch and come along". Room to be announ= ced.
>
> The meeting will not be announced wider than this grouping, but will n= ot be a
> private meeting so it is possible that other will drift in. We will no= t throw
> them out!
>
> Thanks for the discussions on the various lists so far and please stay= engaged.
>
> Adrian and Alia
>



--047d7bacc66482905704fec7b2b8-- From nobody Tue Jul 22 05:54:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88E5A1A0B03; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 05:54:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yrtLHqNZ4TUw; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 05:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22d.google.com (mail-wi0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80F1F1A0B12; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 05:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f173.google.com with SMTP id f8so5944398wiw.6 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 05:54:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=uBzf/StEiRjxnA4AOmH8aNQWTlWy6hCn0gGepP5RL0k=; b=kVJnSeCFnKfMUZqa3PKhi7F5uhRhHcBzvDTQNgTQxu6CRSlwMIFATKS0iJzarMmN/M Pl4F84c2jmqCO2PWkHlmob5UOoNby46NnhpzFLAqFcTPNnec8xkcSpnV2P3LZvx3ee11 bEr/2WkVmUbuyVbJE5Qjz1TYMRYvwL9sanpqa/aeiTbmAD8H3Pd9fDayRTaoiMDewz0m LnZKMN9QkLXgu+jKQSPD0GqUd0TFLDaTmw2vEfv2ONrmD/k0YTrNoegO95iwBsLU4qVj M7RfJXFvkD/CRc6hQMEkIa5PlrpaGxvO4kruzXJBsDYoHv7KjEN4/Ek7/VeMj1pZrB/J 5suQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.58.199 with SMTP id t7mr34473268wjq.14.1406033680091; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 05:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.194.138 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 05:54:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 08:54:40 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Thomas Clausen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bacc6640b52f104fec7ba3b Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/zRX3NnfU4i2hB_BK_Yg3cShSado Cc: Adrian Farrel , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 12:54:44 -0000 --047d7bacc6640b52f104fec7ba3b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Because the question has come up a couple times, this meeting is a "bring your own lunch". See you at noon in the Quebec room. Alia On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 11:54 AM, Alia Atlas wrote: > The meeting is on Tuesday from 12pm to 2pm in the Quebec room. > > Thanks for the reminder to send it the room info. > > Alia > On Jul 21, 2014 11:03 AM, "Thomas Heide Clausen" > wrote: > >> Hey A^2, >> >> I may have missed it, but was there a room announced for this event =E2= =80=94 or, >> is the recommended to stalk either of you after the morning sessions, an= d >> see where that takes us? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Thomas >> >> > On 24 Jun 2014, at 22:14 , Adrian Farrel wrote: >> > >> > Chairs and Directorate, >> > >> > Alia and I have blocked out a slot in Toronto for you to come and >> discuss Area >> > reorganisation with us. >> > >> > We have found Tuesday 12.00 to 14.00 doesn't conflict with any RTG WG >> meetings, >> > so we suggest "grab lunch and come along". Room to be announced. >> > >> > The meeting will not be announced wider than this grouping, but will >> not be a >> > private meeting so it is possible that other will drift in. We will no= t >> throw >> > them out! >> > >> > Thanks for the discussions on the various lists so far and please stay >> engaged. >> > >> > Adrian and Alia >> > >> >> --047d7bacc6640b52f104fec7ba3b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Because the question has come up a couple times, this meet= ing is a "bring your own lunch".

See you at no= on in the Quebec room.

Alia


On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 11:54 AM, Alia A= tlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:

The meeting is on Tuesday from 12pm to 2pm in the Quebec roo= m.

Thanks for the reminder to send it the room info.

Alia

On Jul 21, 2014 11:03 AM, "Thomas Heide Cla= usen" <thomas@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
Hey A^2,

I may have missed it, but was there a room announced for this event =E2=80= =94 or, is the recommended to stalk either of you after the morning session= s, and see where that takes us?

Cheers,

Thomas

> On 24 Jun 2014, at 22:14 , Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Chairs and Directorate,
>
> Alia and I have blocked out a slot in Toronto for you to come and disc= uss Area
> reorganisation with us.
>
> We have found Tuesday 12.00 to 14.00 doesn't conflict with any RTG= WG meetings,
> so we suggest "grab lunch and come along". Room to be announ= ced.
>
> The meeting will not be announced wider than this grouping, but will n= ot be a
> private meeting so it is possible that other will drift in. We will no= t throw
> them out!
>
> Thanks for the discussions on the various lists so far and please stay= engaged.
>
> Adrian and Alia
>


--047d7bacc6640b52f104fec7ba3b-- From nobody Tue Jul 22 05:55:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B1B1A0652; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 05:55:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VoqoGUO0Ckqh; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 05:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emea01-am1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am1lp0015.outbound.protection.outlook.com [213.199.154.15]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 675691A8BB0; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 05:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.242.110.144) by AM3PR03MB609.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.242.109.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.990.7; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 12:55:08 +0000 Received: from AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.110.144]) by AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.110.144]) with mapi id 15.00.0990.007; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 12:55:08 +0000 From: Alexander Vainshtein To: Alia Atlas Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto Thread-Index: AQHPpZQQS5sHzN6ifEu+KGg5a693spusDHOAgAAAGgA= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 12:55:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.234.56.21] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID: x-forefront-prvs: 02801ACE41 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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PjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0K PC9odG1sPg0K --_000_a4f139987eaf4a2da05136447d942b9cAM3PR03MB612eurprd03pro_-- From nobody Tue Jul 22 06:38:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C2281B27D9; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 06:32:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -96.503 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-96.503 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tsv0G-nJ8Kmg; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 06:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpeg.etri.re.kr (smtpeg2.etri.re.kr [129.254.27.142]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 673FF1B27D4; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 06:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SMTP1.etri.info (129.254.28.71) by SMTPEG2.etri.info (129.254.27.142) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.355.2; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 22:32:48 +0900 Received: from SMTP2.etri.info ([169.254.2.160]) by SMTP1.etri.info ([10.2.6.30]) with mapi id 14.01.0355.002; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 22:32:45 +0900 From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?t/nBpLW/?= To: Lou Berger Thread-Topic: Uploaded draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-07 Thread-Index: AQHPpbFrWPotK+BDYUSN4fLjzJrAvQ== Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 13:32:44 +0000 Message-ID: <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A2874C922@SMTP2.etri.info> Accept-Language: ko-KR, en-US Content-Language: ko-KR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [129.254.26.37] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/7WpTjJBEZn20qav34hR1HmvmWwk X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 06:38:01 -0700 Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "mpls@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org" , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [RTG-DIR] Uploaded draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-07 X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 13:32:52 -0000 SGksIGFsbC4NCg0KVGhlIGF1dGhvcnMgb2YgdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCB1cGxvYWRlZCBhIG5ldyB2 ZXJzaW9uLCB3aGljaCByZXNvbHZlcyBhbGwgdGhlIGNvbW1lbnRzIHJhaXNlZCBzbyBmYXIuIA0K DQpCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsDQoNCkplb25nLWRvbmcNCg0K From nobody Tue Jul 22 07:24:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D01D31B28E1; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 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[31.133.150.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1CCC1240223; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 07:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 10:24:07 -0400 From: "Joel M. Halpern" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alia Atlas , Thomas Clausen References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/KjqdDnNDqLQulWjGy5whuhKzxW4 Cc: Adrian Farrel , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto -- input X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 14:24:15 -0000 I will not be able to make it to the meeting due to a conflicting meeting. Several people have mentioned an idea that apparently was floated, but which I missed if it was on the list. THe idea is to separate requirements generation (for various activities) from protocol generation to address those requirements. Not just separate them in time (we do that) but put them in different working groups. This strikes me as likely to cause trouble. Whether other folks have succeeded with this or not, the way the IETF works our requirements work is neither divorced from the solutions nor is it typically complete enough to be fully understood without context. So throwing requirements over a wall from one WG to another seems ineffective. One could argue that this separation is what KARPO did. But I would say that KARP did requirements, GAP Analysis, and then participated in the work on solution development for several iterations. In fact several times the work started in KARP, and only moved to the specific protocol group when it was reasonably clear that the problem was being addressed. Just a thought, Joel From nobody Tue Jul 22 08:07:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 607A51A007A; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 08:07:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xVMBvq8BVY0v; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 08:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emea01-db3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db3lp0076.outbound.protection.outlook.com [213.199.154.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBAE81A0060; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 08:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.242.110.144) by AM3PR03MB609.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.242.109.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.990.7; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 15:07:00 +0000 Received: from AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.110.144]) by AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.110.144]) with mapi id 15.00.0990.007; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 15:07:00 +0000 From: Alexander Vainshtein To: "Joel M. Halpern" Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto -- input Thread-Index: AQHPpbixd9rRNYf2N0G32QbhV/Q3QpusLeiQ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 15:06:59 +0000 Message-ID: <0bbb67f5f192421c8872b351f3f329d4@AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.234.56.21] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID: x-forefront-prvs: 02801ACE41 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(6009001)(51704005)(37854004)(13464003)(377454003)(252514010)(189002)(199002)(86362001)(76576001)(106116001)(92566001)(31966008)(87936001)(76176999)(33646002)(66066001)(64706001)(19580395003)(83072002)(81542001)(85306003)(85852003)(21056001)(81342001)(93886003)(79102001)(2656002)(4396001)(20776003)(107046002)(76482001)(80022001)(19580405001)(95666004)(74316001)(50986999)(99396002)(54356999)(83322001)(74502001)(77982001)(110136001)(46102001)(101416001)(106356001)(105586002)(74662001)(108616002)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:; SCL:1; SRVR:AM3PR03MB609; H:AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ecitele.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/frBW3wQg-JNNF-G_GQRZOT4BPW4 Cc: Thomas Clausen , Adrian Farrel , Alia Atlas , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto -- input X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 15:07:07 -0000 Sm9lbCwgYW5kIGFsbCwNCkkgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCBKb2VsOiBhZG1pbmlzdHJhdGl2ZSBzZXBhcmF0 aW9uIG9mIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBhbmQgcHJvdG9jb2wgd29yayBpcyBhIGhpZ2hseSBwcm9ibGVt YXRpYyBpZGVhLg0KDQpJIGFzc3VtZSB0aGF0IHdlIHdvdWxkIG5vdCBsaWtlIHRvIHBvc3Rwb25l IGJlZ2lubmluZyBvZiB0aGUgV0cgd29yayBvbiB0aGUgcHJvdG9jb2wgIHVudGlsIHRoZSByZXF1 aXJlbWVudCBkb2N1bWVudCBpcyBhcHByb3ZlZCBmb3IgcHVibGljYXRpb24gYXMgYW4gUkZDOyBi dXQgaWYgd2UgcnVuIHRoZXNlIHR3byBpbiBwYXJhbGxlbCwgc3luY2hyb25pemluZyBvbmdvaW5n IGNoYW5nZXMgaW4gdGhlIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyB3aXRoIGNoYW5nZXMgaW4gdGhlIHNvbHV0aW9u IHdvdWxkIGJlY29tZSBhIGNvbXBsZXggY3Jvc3MtV0cgdGFzay4gDQoNCkFuZCBjb25zaWRlciB0 aGUgY2FzZSB3aGVuIGluIG9yZGVyIHRvIGFkZHJlc3MgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIHdlIHdvdWxkIG5l ZWQgY2hhbmdlcyBpbiBtb3JlIHRoYW4gb25lIHByb3RvY29sPyBDQ0FNUCB3b3JrIG9uIEdNUExT IHByb3ZpZGVzIGxvdHMgb2YgZXhhbXBsZXMgd2hlbiByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgdG8gcHJvdmlkZSBh IEdNUExTLWNvbnRyb2xsZWQgbm9uLXBhY2tldCBuZXR3b3JrIHJlcXVpcmUgY29vcmRpbmF0ZWQg Y2hhbmdlcyBpbiBSU1ZQLVRFLCBMTVAsIE9TUEYtVEUgYW5kIElTLUlTLVRFLi4uIEp1c3QgcGxh bm5pbmcgdGhlIHNlc3Npb25zIG9mIHRoZSBhZmZlY3RlZCBXR3MgZHVyaW5nIGFuIElFVEYgbWVl dGluZyB0byBhdm9pZCBjb25mbGljdHMgd291bGQgYmVjb21lIGhpZ2hseSBub24tdHJpdmlhbCBJ TU8uLi4NCg0KTXkgMmMsDQogICAgICAgU2FzaGEgDQpFbWFpbDogQWxleGFuZGVyLlZhaW5zaHRl aW5AZWNpdGVsZS5jb20NCk1vYmlsZTogMDU0LTkyNjYzMDINCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1l c3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBydGctZGlyIFttYWlsdG86cnRnLWRpci1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYu b3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgSm9lbCBNLiBIYWxwZXJuDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFR1ZXNkYXksIEp1bHkg MjIsIDIwMTQgNToyNCBQTQ0KPiBUbzogQWxpYSBBdGxhczsgVGhvbWFzIENsYXVzZW4NCj4gQ2M6 IEFkcmlhbiBGYXJyZWw7IHJ0Zy1jaGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IHJ0Zy1kaXJAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4g U3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtSVEctRElSXSBDb25zdWx0YXRpdmUgU2Vzc2lvbiBvbiBSVEcgUmVvcmcg aW4gVG9yb250byAtLSBpbnB1dA0KPiANCj4gSSB3aWxsIG5vdCBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIG1ha2UgaXQg dG8gdGhlIG1lZXRpbmcgZHVlIHRvIGEgY29uZmxpY3RpbmcgbWVldGluZy4NCj4gDQo+IFNldmVy YWwgcGVvcGxlIGhhdmUgbWVudGlvbmVkIGFuIGlkZWEgdGhhdCBhcHBhcmVudGx5IHdhcyBmbG9h dGVkLCBidXQNCj4gd2hpY2ggSSBtaXNzZWQgaWYgaXQgd2FzIG9uIHRoZSBsaXN0Lg0KPiBUSGUg aWRlYSBpcyB0byBzZXBhcmF0ZSByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgZ2VuZXJhdGlvbiAoZm9yIHZhcmlvdXMg YWN0aXZpdGllcykNCj4gZnJvbSBwcm90b2NvbCBnZW5lcmF0aW9uIHRvIGFkZHJlc3MgdGhvc2Ug cmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzLiAgTm90IGp1c3QNCj4gc2VwYXJhdGUgdGhlbSBpbiB0aW1lICh3ZSBkbyB0 aGF0KSBidXQgcHV0IHRoZW0gaW4gZGlmZmVyZW50IHdvcmtpbmcNCj4gZ3JvdXBzLg0KPiANCj4g VGhpcyBzdHJpa2VzIG1lIGFzIGxpa2VseSB0byBjYXVzZSB0cm91YmxlLiAgV2hldGhlciBvdGhl ciBmb2xrcyBoYXZlDQo+IHN1Y2NlZWRlZCB3aXRoIHRoaXMgb3Igbm90LCB0aGUgd2F5IHRoZSBJ RVRGIHdvcmtzIG91ciByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgd29yaw0KPiBpcyBuZWl0aGVyIGRpdm9yY2VkIGZy b20gdGhlIHNvbHV0aW9ucyBub3IgaXMgaXQgdHlwaWNhbGx5IGNvbXBsZXRlDQo+IGVub3VnaCB0 byBiZSBmdWxseSB1bmRlcnN0b29kIHdpdGhvdXQgY29udGV4dC4gIFNvIHRocm93aW5nIHJlcXVp cmVtZW50cw0KPiBvdmVyIGEgd2FsbCBmcm9tIG9uZSBXRyB0byBhbm90aGVyIHNlZW1zIGluZWZm ZWN0aXZlLiAgT25lIGNvdWxkIGFyZ3VlDQo+IHRoYXQgdGhpcyBzZXBhcmF0aW9uIGlzIHdoYXQg S0FSUE8gZGlkLiAgQnV0IEkgd291bGQgc2F5IHRoYXQgS0FSUCBkaWQNCj4gcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRz LCBHQVAgQW5hbHlzaXMsIGFuZCB0aGVuIHBhcnRpY2lwYXRlZCBpbiB0aGUgd29yayBvbg0KPiBz b2x1dGlvbiBkZXZlbG9wbWVudCBmb3Igc2V2ZXJhbCBpdGVyYXRpb25zLiAgSW4gZmFjdCBzZXZl cmFsIHRpbWVzIHRoZQ0KPiB3b3JrIHN0YXJ0ZWQgaW4gS0FSUCwgYW5kIG9ubHkgbW92ZWQgdG8g dGhlIHNwZWNpZmljIHByb3RvY29sIGdyb3VwIHdoZW4NCj4gaXQgd2FzIHJlYXNvbmFibHkgY2xl YXIgdGhhdCB0aGUgcHJvYmxlbSB3YXMgYmVpbmcgYWRkcmVzc2VkLg0KPiANCj4gSnVzdCBhIHRo b3VnaHQsDQo+IEpvZWwNCg0K From nobody Tue Jul 22 08:10:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 245F31B28AF; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 08:09:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PZ6YBGWlMP5j; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 08:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x22d.google.com (mail-yk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 788501B2821; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 08:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yk0-f173.google.com with SMTP id 131so4991350ykp.32 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 08:09:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=fGPBmEtXEg9HMOKh5Oby7LwT1JFeTQpSAKp3l/nmXsM=; b=BIIRJAXHiOznN1KmyxjWINC+A84bVrFk8/X2ec6ub0hdDSgrf1RgjdP7fmRv17NbFY uiuhSJRQCTcXFx73m0ScM2J6lj9+YeIHNuatMhazP1Skgkb2MDaLCKpY/g9y+IH9zlTt 5HTaYOInJOCPY+TivW2U4ga+OcdblnI7jY7jR02xlC13hXThfo1EOAW82dahQsS4S93i TvNkTOfki3gUufjrVt8+NZmMBG4eQIhM1wQjgRSgMy6BZjEfvowEOcULxtyjjda0DQ6t WK43CRTCGJ52dg4U7Cne4T7iibq9Ad0dEvJda0Pk6gqE0G1mdeaysOFtpybCidAK33hO hR3Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.67.9 with SMTP id i9mr5824980yhd.139.1406041792817; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 08:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.170.130.201 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 08:09:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 11:09:52 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122957099af9b04fec99db8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/8NpwUp03eSoUx7DEayWGQbaVnzs Cc: Adrian Farrel , Thomas Clausen , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto -- input X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 15:09:59 -0000 --089e0122957099af9b04fec99db8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Joel, First I've heard of that idea... Alia On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:24 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I will not be able to make it to the meeting due to a conflicting meeting. > > Several people have mentioned an idea that apparently was floated, but > which I missed if it was on the list. > THe idea is to separate requirements generation (for various activities) > from protocol generation to address those requirements. Not just separate > them in time (we do that) but put them in different working groups. > > This strikes me as likely to cause trouble. Whether other folks have > succeeded with this or not, the way the IETF works our requirements work is > neither divorced from the solutions nor is it typically complete enough to > be fully understood without context. So throwing requirements over a wall > from one WG to another seems ineffective. One could argue that this > separation is what KARPO did. But I would say that KARP did requirements, > GAP Analysis, and then participated in the work on solution development for > several iterations. In fact several times the work started in KARP, and > only moved to the specific protocol group when it was reasonably clear that > the problem was being addressed. > > Just a thought, > Joel > --089e0122957099af9b04fec99db8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Joel,

First I've heard of that idea= ...

Alia

On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:24 AM, Joel M. H= alpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
I will not be able to make it to the meeting= due to a conflicting meeting.

Several people have mentioned an idea that apparently was floated, but whic= h I missed if it was on the list.
THe idea is to separate requirements generation (for various activities) fr= om protocol generation to address those requirements. =C2=A0Not just separa= te them in time (we do that) but put them in different working groups.

This strikes me as likely to cause trouble. =C2=A0Whether other folks have = succeeded with this or not, the way the IETF works our requirements work is= neither divorced from the solutions nor is it typically complete enough to= be fully understood without context. =C2=A0So throwing requirements over a= wall from one WG to another seems ineffective. =C2=A0One could argue that = this separation is what KARPO did. =C2=A0But I would say that KARP did requ= irements, GAP Analysis, and then participated in the work on solution devel= opment for several iterations. =C2=A0In fact several times the work started= in KARP, and only moved to the specific protocol group when it was reasona= bly clear that the problem was being addressed.

Just a thought,
Joel

--089e0122957099af9b04fec99db8-- From nobody Tue Jul 22 08:31:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F7B1A00F9 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 08:31:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z03HbpGZD1hO for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 08:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.33.93]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 632DB1A0025 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 08:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 642 invoked by uid 0); 22 Jul 2014 15:31:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO CMOut01) (10.0.90.82) by gproxy8.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 2014 15:31:41 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by CMOut01 with id VTXW1o0162SSUrH01TXZal; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 09:31:40 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=C4B6l2/+ c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=WrhVjQHxoPwA:10 a=Lhyv8l1xRe4A:10 a=HFCU6gKsb0MA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=wU2YTnxGAAAA:8 a=cNaOj0WVAAAA:8 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=uEJ9t1CZtbIA:10 a=IRDgFnn-AAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=PZEZ8CSbuXdq9GiGgDIA:9 a=0LXFZJpwR3Vpdfk3:21 a=Re5ifUXRLzH5IaMG:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=ZgsxABZQttoA:10 a=1QW4SJF8ptEA:10 a=lZB815dzVvQA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=vYwm0+h8arZkVkeavDMoCoBCYmwTaW6bvNXTvswBRI0=; b=PVArSRuElyq9bmVfEJkBZvVO9Ukc7S4aDL2lkZxBgZACwRJ9ucVlRYEau1SbNQF3T2s1CgrKjG4iu5ZOW88RzGze9FLYfzha6leXjNE6wHQT3s9NhEFNFjUk/XZJOsZQ; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:42066 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1X9c2M-0005Tb-HV; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 09:31:30 -0600 Message-ID: <53CE83DC.8020002@labn.net> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 11:31:40 -0400 From: Lou Berger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexander Vainshtein , "Joel M. Halpern" References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <0bbb67f5f192421c8872b351f3f329d4@AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <0bbb67f5f192421c8872b351f3f329d4@AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/6uYYU2D-XkZubN_IRNkX0vs4ecw Cc: Adrian Farrel , Thomas Clausen , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , Alia Atlas Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto -- input X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 15:31:46 -0000 While I agree with both sasha's and Joels comments on separation, and don't generally believe such is a good idea, it could yield smaller wgs with less signal-to-noise ratio -- which seems to be one of the objectives of this discussion... lou On 7/22/2014 11:06 AM, Alexander Vainshtein wrote: > Joel, and all, > I agree with Joel: administrative separation of requirements and protocol work is a highly problematic idea. > > I assume that we would not like to postpone beginning of the WG work on the protocol until the requirement document is approved for publication as an RFC; but if we run these two in parallel, synchronizing ongoing changes in the requirements with changes in the solution would become a complex cross-WG task. > > And consider the case when in order to address requirements we would need changes in more than one protocol? CCAMP work on GMPLS provides lots of examples when requirements to provide a GMPLS-controlled non-packet network require coordinated changes in RSVP-TE, LMP, OSPF-TE and IS-IS-TE... Just planning the sessions of the affected WGs during an IETF meeting to avoid conflicts would become highly non-trivial IMO... > > My 2c, > Sasha > Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com > Mobile: 054-9266302 > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern >> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 5:24 PM >> To: Alia Atlas; Thomas Clausen >> Cc: Adrian Farrel; rtg-chairs@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto -- input >> >> I will not be able to make it to the meeting due to a conflicting meeting. >> >> Several people have mentioned an idea that apparently was floated, but >> which I missed if it was on the list. >> THe idea is to separate requirements generation (for various activities) >> from protocol generation to address those requirements. Not just >> separate them in time (we do that) but put them in different working >> groups. >> >> This strikes me as likely to cause trouble. Whether other folks have >> succeeded with this or not, the way the IETF works our requirements work >> is neither divorced from the solutions nor is it typically complete >> enough to be fully understood without context. So throwing requirements >> over a wall from one WG to another seems ineffective. One could argue >> that this separation is what KARPO did. But I would say that KARP did >> requirements, GAP Analysis, and then participated in the work on >> solution development for several iterations. In fact several times the >> work started in KARP, and only moved to the specific protocol group when >> it was reasonably clear that the problem was being addressed. >> >> Just a thought, >> Joel From nobody Tue Jul 22 13:05:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34141B2AF5; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 10:41:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14cz3WmDVXjn; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 10:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0510C1B2AF4; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 10:41:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5457; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1406050863; x=1407260463; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sukzFUzVvNkm70WOQo7be46f7S/Bj70z6L5oEe0JYxA=; b=fUvKaI9kMN7GqCanX3cfdfs5nz2R300JLtzdTjdbxyUeh+eA3HaJ7elf h3R87HqA/7atBn7LQSPcv4C2m/gZgeUN2SxtVOkA8kodyaQ1diZHwSCDW Jv64FgKnWLJbAVKnc6FXFJy5ohD4GTTbyCHbQ430FWGUWL2V9Wuponl2o A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlcFAJWgzlOtJV2T/2dsb2JhbABYgw5SV4J4xCGHRQGBExZ2hAMBAQEDASMPAQVAARALFAQCAgUWCwICCQMCAQIBRQYBDAEHAQGINggNqGGXKReBLIwZggYHgniBTgEEmyeBTYVKjRyDYiEvAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,711,1400025600"; d="scan'208";a="338907487" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Jul 2014 17:41:02 +0000 Received: from [10.21.126.103] (sjc-vpn6-1639.cisco.com [10.21.126.103]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s6MHf0Jg003562; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 17:41:01 GMT Message-ID: <53CEA22C.4010105@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 13:41:00 -0400 From: Bhavani Parise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Manderson , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/TgkEFylv5Fsy3cg7ERR-x-8jER0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 13:05:46 -0700 Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-bmwg-bgp-basic-convergence.all@tools.ietf.org" , "bmwg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-bmwg-bgp-basic-convergence-01.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 17:41:04 -0000 Terry, Thanks for your review and feedback. Apologies for the delay, we incorporated the changes in the latest version of the draft (draft-ietf-bmwg-bgp-basic-convergence-02.txt) published couple of weeks ago. Please see inline for details on each of the comments: On 4/22/14 7:50 PM, Terry Manderson wrote: > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. > The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related > drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes > on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to > the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, > please see ​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it > would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last > Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through > discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-bmwg-bgp-basic-convergence-01 > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-bmwg-bgp-basic-convergence-01.txt > Reviewer: Terry Manderson > Review Date: 18/04/2014 > IETF LC End Date: N/A - WG requested Routing Area Directorate review > Intended Status: Standards Track > > Summary: > > I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be > resolved before publication. > > Comments: > > This document is clearly written and for the most part easy to understand. > The steps are > enumerated, which is very helpful. I would have prefered to see the > reference topology figures repeated closer to the test case where they are > used, but this is a matter of style. > > > Major Issues: > > No major issues found > > Minor Issues: > > Section 3 (figures 1-4): please define The Helper node (HLP) before its > use. It is first defined in section 5.1.2 <> Fixed this in Sec.3 > > Section 4.5: Please clarify if the interface media types and throughput > must all be exactly the same for all devices in all the test cases, or > that the media types and throughput are to be the same for iterations of > the test cases. I re-read that Para several times and could infer either > situation. <> thanks, clarified this. It should be for all iterations of test cases > > Section 4.10: Can you please highlight the impact on the tests for where > routing processor redundancy cannot be disabled, or if unwilling to do > that suggest that the impacts or assessment of impacts are out of scope of > this draft. <> yes clarified this and added the scope/impact in the section > > Section 5.: Point B. I assume you mean Hard Reset here. For understanding > purposes you may like to consider adding the term in parenthesis. <>thanks, another reviewer also pointed to the same. So we reworded and clarified the sentence > > Section 5.1.1: Pont B introduces "peer x of Emulator". I find this wording > terse, can you please clarify what this is as I couldn't see in the text > of section 3. > > Point D: "peer-x" is used here. Is this the same term as point B? > > It appears as I read through the points, that Peer-X (possibly otherwise > known as 'SOME_ASN-X) is the test case nomenclature representation of the > emulator function. It may be worth stating that up front to be pragmatic > and help the reader. <>good catch, fixed this and used the same representation now in both Sec.3 and 5.1.1 > > > Section 5.1.2: > > This section introduces a NTP time source to the test case, that isn't > described in "Section 3. Test Topologies". While not a critical concern to > someone implementing the topologies, it may help them by highlighting the > necessity of NTP in section 3. <> added the text in Sec.3 > > Section 5.1.5 > > Is the omission of normative language in the points, specifically A,B, > and C intentional? <> fixed these > > Section 5.5, Point B. The language here surrounding the time source is > different than in earlier text, is that intentional? <> thanks, fixed this > > Nits: > > Section 1.1, Para 3: s/functional/functions/ > Section 4.2, Para 1: s/or through neighbor/or through a neighbor/ > Section 4.4, Para 3: s/a)default/a) default/ > s/b)platform-specific/b) platform-specific/ > s/c)values/c) values/ > Section 4.6, Para 3: s/)is/) is/ > > Section 5.1.1, second last para: s/Stand Deviation/Standard Deviation/ > > Section 5.2.1, > Point C. "Tx1", do you simply mean "Tx" as described in Figure 1? > Point C. s/(Tx1)Interface/(Tx1) Interface/ > Point E. s/Trr2/Tr2/ > Point F. "(Drr1)" Can you clarify this is the intended nomenclature for > this egress interface on the DUT? > > Section 5.3, Point E s/route say/route, say/ - I'd expect the RFC editor > may suggest using "e.g". > > Section 5.6, Point B(6) s/(e.g. route A)/(e.g. routeA)/ - "RouteA" appears > to be the selected form from earlier parts of the draft. > (same for other occurrences in the remainder of the Draft (eg S5.8 point > N,Q, .) > > > Section 5.8. point F. s/Autonomous System.s/Autonomous Systems/ > Section 5.8. Point S. s/Node -1/Node-1/ <> thanks for pointing all these variations. Fixed them in the newer version of the draft Once again thanks for the review. regards, Bhavani > > > Cheers > Terry From nobody Tue Jul 22 15:49:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE511A0381; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 15:49:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h2XFr1SefZpT; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 15:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 869311A02EF; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 15:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.57.142] (unknown [206.47.221.210]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 67E491802B19; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 00:49:21 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 00:49:29 +0200 From: Loa Andersson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------060503070308040102070004" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/wpRdhzaOynQDuFhhBAFiZPJ4RAI Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 22:49:25 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060503070308040102070004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, I took a look at the performance on rtg wg's. The spread sheet list the number of RFC's per working group between two meeting. I've used the number of people who signed the blue sheets in Vancouver as some type of average except for roll that did not meet in Vancouver, where I used the London figure instead. Calculated the number of RFCs per person in the room. The highest figure has BFD 0.12 RFCs prior to the IETF84 meeting. The highest absolute number of RFC is MPLS (this meeting). The best trend has MPLS. Since I don't care too much about how much noise the non-participating participants is exposed too, I don't think the a re-org is motivated by the figures in the spread sheet. I guess I would go as far as too say that no arguments presented so far motivates a re-org of the RTG area. Though I'm totally supportive of some well considered re-organization of working groups, but - do it carefully - at a time when it is optimal for the working groups - involve the chairs to drive the re-org - don't break things that work /Loa -- Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 --------------060503070308040102070004 Content-Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.sheet; name="stats.xlsx" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="stats.xlsx" UEsDBBQABgAIAAAAIQCeLGxvawEAABAFAAATAAgCW0NvbnRlbnRfVHlwZXNdLnhtbCCiBAIo oAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ROmwjCUqKY4O; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 19:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-x231.google.com (mail-pd0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67DD81A0217; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 19:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f177.google.com with SMTP id p10so696049pdj.8 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 19:45:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=Tk+QaBGpyx9ZmXetUvQ/7ex6DqMs00yHrPOlrSYqwkc=; b=ivm9hYyqstVqDzre08Ly9n7AQzzTdu5xmAU2c7FqyQ1a7FkyNHKdWCyoMHiN1QLWQ+ TStFSr48JPEVKmdnQHaVOvqyhN6wMn+C0+GR0t1EuGKf/+cvLoPaU0VZ4m1yihM7pM9d tgtUq1cCk7aX+raKNrn2qc2VIjYChHC8XFeDMfxyF5LRUSudrAuLLJLLl/8CJRv4qTtC 8+M3TjvDQRn2TPnG9FVAMsJeLrKuaIaINteIv05hzFzs0s/DTUT5k6x/5loKCtSs6Vci 9780jpbjyEOz++LAIxCzFfKyn/12GHKby4kXyCkWuW9XS2RtZyuf4A/xEgadkrRmDdxi w+dg== X-Received: by 10.70.90.161 with SMTP id bx1mr6703964pdb.150.1406083545104; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 19:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LIZHONGJ ([180.166.53.21]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ia2sm653402pbb.32.2014.07.22.19.45.40 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Jul 2014 19:45:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lizhong Jin" To: "'Alexander Vainshtein'" , "'Joel M. Halpern'" References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <0bbb67f5f192421c8872b351f3f329d4@AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <0bbb67f5f192421c8872b351f3f329d4@AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:45:37 +0800 Message-ID: <017c01cfa620$32c02050$984060f0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQKoEM/Y/Vubz9dfpwP/nDHHq79/PAH8SQ9wApok1FgByE30QAMeS+r2AXWTwuqZpIWrQA== Content-Language: zh-cn Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/fBfhieHK7F8BNbhzCaAFiK5s0Qs Cc: 'Adrian Farrel' , 'Thomas Clausen' , rtg-chairs@ietf.org, rtg-dir@ietf.org, 'Alia Atlas' Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto -- input X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 02:45:46 -0000 I also agree this is not a good idea. There are many protocol = enhancements draft raised in the WG, and these drafts solve real = problem, but there may not separate requirement document, instead the = requirement is incorporated into the solution draft. Separate = requirements and protocol to different WGs may cause additional = administrative coordination work. Lizhong > -----Original Message----- > From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander > Vainshtein > Sent: 2014=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8822=E6=97=A5 23:07 > To: Joel M. Halpern > Cc: Thomas Clausen; Adrian Farrel; Alia Atlas; rtg-dir@ietf.org; rtg- > chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto -- = input >=20 > Joel, and all, > I agree with Joel: administrative separation of requirements and = protocol > work is a highly problematic idea. >=20 > I assume that we would not like to postpone beginning of the WG work = on > the protocol until the requirement document is approved for = publication as > an RFC; but if we run these two in parallel, synchronizing ongoing = changes in > the requirements with changes in the solution would become a complex > cross-WG task. >=20 > And consider the case when in order to address requirements we would > need changes in more than one protocol? CCAMP work on GMPLS provides > lots of examples when requirements to provide a GMPLS-controlled non- > packet network require coordinated changes in RSVP-TE, LMP, OSPF-TE = and > IS-IS-TE... Just planning the sessions of the affected WGs during an = IETF > meeting to avoid conflicts would become highly non-trivial IMO... >=20 > My 2c, > Sasha > Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com > Mobile: 054-9266302 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. > > Halpern > > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 5:24 PM > > To: Alia Atlas; Thomas Clausen > > Cc: Adrian Farrel; rtg-chairs@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto = -- > > input > > > > I will not be able to make it to the meeting due to a conflicting = meeting. > > > > Several people have mentioned an idea that apparently was floated, = but > > which I missed if it was on the list. > > THe idea is to separate requirements generation (for various > > activities) from protocol generation to address those requirements. > > Not just separate them in time (we do that) but put them in = different > > working groups. > > > > This strikes me as likely to cause trouble. Whether other folks = have > > succeeded with this or not, the way the IETF works our requirements > > work is neither divorced from the solutions nor is it typically > > complete enough to be fully understood without context. So throwing > > requirements over a wall from one WG to another seems ineffective. > > One could argue that this separation is what KARPO did. But I would > > say that KARP did requirements, GAP Analysis, and then participated = in > > the work on solution development for several iterations. In fact > > several times the work started in KARP, and only moved to the = specific > > protocol group when it was reasonably clear that the problem was = being > addressed. > > > > Just a thought, > > Joel From nobody Tue Jul 22 19:55:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED38D1A02D9; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 19:55:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zzOVpB8nasrZ; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 19:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x22d.google.com (mail-qg0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B0A91A028E; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 19:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-f45.google.com with SMTP id f51so693188qge.18 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 19:55:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=28ytSf1MDHfSgMB9tJQK7dNW87xVXw0kqWbDPXQ6p/I=; b=KKb69+0pKmsWk0w777WZZN/Cmpt43WQ3tHLiBmeO+be99jjmFv1DrLwpDTCtAuD9Ui dn5fI2Nn25J78igvWyYBBsXg2qPXMgaM6ZyuZu0lmuBxGl0+1hYUG6SoyK7Qoc+xds2t i4fMwTFe0Mz5e9uqPk99//eNLpK/VVlnhTOypGDAi43f7BOvRHF45CTH64qA/h+mCiBp 787UhMNaah4FNB/2PQz3cAcnTuIaX3v3LTeTJJjvKCHDrkEoD8FzfbhDFwPoM+ak7tM2 pjq3i6ep+6LuYzVTndEoD7X9GGCTVw/JGERBMfUkTP8w2ME8qBUTlBxRs1zANCbi1rmk pXIQ== X-Received: by 10.224.3.201 with SMTP id 9mr61452321qao.73.1406084136199; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 19:55:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.16.22 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 19:55:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 22:55:15 -0400 Message-ID: To: Loa Andersson Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=001a11c24cfc768bc504fed3799f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/VNjMt9ovxebpfN6Fv_FrhnMUPjo Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 02:55:39 -0000 --001a11c24cfc768bc504fed3799f Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c24cfc768bc104fed3799d --001a11c24cfc768bc104fed3799d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Loa, I added one more column, to total all of the RFCs over the period. mpls came in first in terms of total RFCs per capita, and pwe3 came in second. I also agree with your conclusions. Cheers, Andy On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Loa Andersson wrote: > Folks, > > I took a look at the performance on rtg wg's. > > The spread sheet list the number of RFC's per working group > between two meeting. I've used the number of people who signed the > blue sheets in Vancouver as some type of average except for roll > that did not meet in Vancouver, where I used the London figure instead. > > Calculated the number of RFCs per person in the room. > > The highest figure has BFD 0.12 RFCs prior to the IETF84 meeting. > The highest absolute number of RFC is MPLS (this meeting). > The best trend has MPLS. > > Since I don't care too much about how much noise the non-participating > participants is exposed too, I don't think the a re-org is motivated > by the figures in the spread sheet. > > I guess I would go as far as too say that no arguments presented so far > motivates a re-org of the RTG area. > > Though I'm totally supportive of some well considered re-organization > of working groups, but > > - do it carefully > - at a time when it is optimal for the working groups > - involve the chairs to drive the re-org > - don't break things that work > > /Loa > > > -- > > > Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com > Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu > Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > --001a11c24cfc768bc104fed3799d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Loa,

I added one more column, to total = all of the RFCs over the period. mpls came in first in terms of total RFCs = per capita, and pwe3 came in second. I also agree with your conclusions.

Cheers,
Andy


On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 6:49 PM, L= oa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> wrote:
Folks,

I took a look at the performance on rtg wg's.

The spread sheet list the number of RFC's per working group
between two meeting. I've used the number of people who signed the
blue sheets in Vancouver as some type of average except for roll
that did not meet in Vancouver, where I used the London figure instead.

Calculated the number of RFCs per person in the room.

The highest figure has BFD 0.12 RFCs prior to the IETF84 meeting.
The highest absolute number of RFC is MPLS (this meeting).
The best trend has MPLS.

Since I don't care too much about how much noise the non-participating<= br> participants is exposed too, I don't think the a re-org is motivated by the figures in the spread sheet.

I guess I would go as far as too say that no arguments presented so far
motivates a re-org of the RTG area.

Though I'm totally supportive of some well considered re-organization of working groups, but

- do it carefully
- at a time when it is optimal for the working groups
- involve the chairs to drive the re-org
- don't break things that work

/Loa


--


Loa Andersson =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0email: loa@mail01.huawei.com
Senior MPLS Expert =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0loa@pi.nu
Huawei Technologies (consultant) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 phone: +46 739 81 2= 1 64

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bC9zdHlsZXMueG1sUEsBAi0AFAAGAAgAAAAhADz9TxAwCgAA+ygAABgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAkxcA AHhsL3dvcmtzaGVldHMvc2hlZXQxLnhtbFBLAQItABQABgAIAAAAIQC+FBBtUgEAAGoCAAARAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAPkhAABkb2NQcm9wcy9jb3JlLnhtbFBLAQItABQABgAIAAAAIQBuZOHKYAEAANEG AAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIkAAB4bC9jYWxjQ2hhaW4ueG1sUEsBAi0AFAAGAAgAAAAhANdTnDCQ AQAAGwMAABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECYAAGRvY1Byb3BzL2FwcC54bWxQSwUGAAAAAAsACwC+AgAA 1igAAAAA --001a11c24cfc768bc504fed3799f-- From nobody Wed Jul 23 03:55:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA0F21A0422; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 03:55:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6JrKqv6-y2Pl; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 03:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (hhc-web3.hickoryhill-consulting.com [64.9.205.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE14E1A0453; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 03:55:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.162.238; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Giles Heron \(giheron\)'" , "'Andrew G. Malis'" References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:55:47 -0400 Message-ID: <011801cfa664$a9573980$fc05ac80$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0119_01CFA643.224B8CF0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQKoEM/Y/Vubz9dfpwP/nDHHq79/PAH8SQ9wApok1FgByE30QAMeS+r2AWPA0fICCrwfdwIpoaPdmYP6ndA= X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/czTt_n0ntUTJEm-bq0AbFKUrieE Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-chairs@ietf.org, 'Loa Andersson' Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:55:53 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0119_01CFA643.224B8CF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Giles: The performance that IETF has utilized for its ADs, IETF chairs, and WG groups for 20 years has been: Quantitative: 1) RFC published 2) WG groups formed and completed 3) Administrative effectiveness (AFI/SAFIs, early code adoption, ports assigned. ) 4) Number of authors and demographics on authors 5) Statistics on the timing of RFCs and the timing of WG forming 6) Statistics on attendance in WG/ IETF Please note, I do know of a statistically valid analysis of the correlation between #6 an #1. If you do, I would be interested. Qualitatively 1) Technologies described in RFCs get deployed. 2) IETF is collaborative (at IESG, at WG), 3) People want to come (from surveys) The "people" want to come falls into a qualitative experience that says "important to learn about the technology". http://www.arkko.com/tools/docstats.html has document statistics. If you want to propose a new metric it can be useful going forward, but unless it is built on the data kept by the datatracker, we do not have the past trends to defend it. You could also use the mail list information, but we would need to use a long-running group to get a valid statistics. Sue From: Giles Heron (giheron) [mailto:giheron@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 6:32 AM To: Andrew G. Malis Cc: Loa Andersson; rtg-dir@ietf.org; rtg-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad I'm not sure that how helpful the exercise is? Is performance really related to how many people show up? There's no way after all to determine what fraction of attendees are active participants vs "IETF tourists". And of course we're supposed to do more work outside meetings than in them. At any rate to be meaningful at all we need to weight the results by length of WG meeting as time is the constraint we're trying to optimise for here (I think!). I counted WG meeting durations in minutes (since L2VPN was 2 hours 10 mins - and I didn't have the time to type a recurring decimal). Couldn't find ROLL on the Vancouver Agenda though - so I used their London duration. Of course then the RFCs per minute were all rather low. In honour of the recent World Cup I went for RFCs per football match (counting only the players and the playing minutes - no allowance for referees, half-time, injury time or extra time). the results show PWE3 a mile ahead of the rest, followed by BFD, then MPLS, then a cluster of WGs with very similar productivity (L2VPN leading those by a nose, but who am I to brag?) with L3VPN and then PCE (possibly the victim of the recent SDN hype) bringing up the rear. like I say, does this really mean anything? Can I have the last half hour of my life (or rather 1/66 of a football match) back? Giles On 23 Jul 2014, at 03:55, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Loa, > > I added one more column, to total all of the RFCs over the period. mpls came in first in terms of total RFCs per capita, and pwe3 came in second. I also agree with your conclusions. > > Cheers, > Andy > > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Loa Andersson wrote: > Folks, > > I took a look at the performance on rtg wg's. > > The spread sheet list the number of RFC's per working group > between two meeting. I've used the number of people who signed the > blue sheets in Vancouver as some type of average except for roll > that did not meet in Vancouver, where I used the London figure instead. > > Calculated the number of RFCs per person in the room. > > The highest figure has BFD 0.12 RFCs prior to the IETF84 meeting. > The highest absolute number of RFC is MPLS (this meeting). > The best trend has MPLS. > > Since I don't care too much about how much noise the non-participating > participants is exposed too, I don't think the a re-org is motivated > by the figures in the spread sheet. > > I guess I would go as far as too say that no arguments presented so far > motivates a re-org of the RTG area. > > Though I'm totally supportive of some well considered re-organization > of working groups, but > > - do it carefully > - at a time when it is optimal for the working groups > - involve the chairs to drive the re-org > - don't break things that work > > /Loa > > > -- > > > Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com > Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu > Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > > ------=_NextPart_000_0119_01CFA643.224B8CF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Giles:

 

The performance that IETF has utilized for its ADs, IETF chairs, and = WG groups for 20 years has been:

 

Quantitative:

1)      = RFC published

2)      = WG groups formed and completed

3)      = Administrative effectiveness (AFI/SAFIs, early code adoption, ports = assigned… )

4)      = Number of authors and demographics on authors =

5)      = Statistics on the timing of RFCs and the timing of WG forming =

6)      = Statistics on attendance in WG/ IETF

 

Please note, I do know of a statistically valid analysis of the = correlation between #6 an #1.  If you do, I would be interested. =

 

Qualitatively

1)      = Technologies described in RFCs get deployed.

2)      = IETF is collaborative (at IESG, at WG),

3)      = People want to come (from surveys) =   

 

The “people” want to come falls into a qualitative = experience that says “important to learn about the = technology”.

 

http://www.arkko.com/to= ols/docstats.html  has document statistics. =

 

If you want to propose a new metric it can be useful going forward, = but unless it is built on the data kept by the datatracker, we do not = have the past trends to defend it.   You could also use the = mail list information, but we would need to use a long-running group to = get a valid statistics.

 

Sue

From:= = Giles Heron (giheron) [mailto:giheron@cisco.com]
Sent: = Wednesday, July 23, 2014 6:32 AM
To: Andrew G. = Malis
Cc: Loa Andersson; rtg-dir@ietf.org; = rtg-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so = bad

 

I'm not = sure that how helpful the exercise is?  Is performance really = related to how many people show up?  There's no way after all to = determine what fraction of attendees are active participants vs = "IETF tourists".  And of course we're supposed to do more = work outside meetings than in them.

At any rate to be meaningful = at all we need to weight the results by length of WG meeting as time is = the constraint we're trying to optimise for here (I think!).  I = counted WG meeting durations in minutes (since L2VPN was 2 hours 10 mins = - and I didn't have the time to type a recurring decimal).  = Couldn't find ROLL on the Vancouver Agenda though - so I used their = London duration.  Of course then the RFCs per minute were all = rather low.  In honour of the recent World Cup I went for RFCs per = football match (counting only the players and the playing minutes - no = allowance for referees, half-time, injury time or extra = time).

the results show PWE3 a mile ahead of the rest, followed = by BFD, then MPLS, then a cluster of WGs with very similar productivity = (L2VPN leading those by a nose, but who am I to brag?) with L3VPN and = then PCE (possibly the victim of the recent SDN hype) bringing up the = rear.

like I say, does this really mean anything?   Can = I have the last half hour of my life (or rather 1/66 of a football = match) back?

Giles




On 23 Jul 2014, at 03:55, Andrew = G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com> = wrote:

> Loa,
>
> I added one more column, to = total all of the RFCs over the period. mpls came in first in terms of = total RFCs per capita, and pwe3 came in second. I also agree with your = conclusions.
>
> Cheers,
> Andy
>
> =
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> wrote:
> = Folks,
>
> I took a look at the performance on rtg = wg's.
>
> The spread sheet list the number of RFC's per = working group
> between two meeting. I've used the number of = people who signed the
> blue sheets in Vancouver as some type of = average except for roll
> that did not meet in Vancouver, where I = used the London figure instead.
>
> Calculated the number = of RFCs per person in the room.
>
> The highest figure has = BFD 0.12 RFCs prior to the IETF84 meeting.
> The highest absolute = number of RFC is MPLS (this meeting).
> The best trend has = MPLS.
>
> Since I don't care too much about how much noise = the non-participating
> participants is exposed too, I don't think = the a re-org is motivated
> by the figures in the spread = sheet.
>
> I guess I would go as far as too say that no = arguments presented so far
> motivates a re-org of the RTG = area.
>
> Though I'm totally supportive of some well = considered re-organization
> of working groups, but
> =
> - do it carefully
> - at a time when it is optimal for = the working groups
> - involve the chairs to drive the = re-org
> - don't break things that work
>
> = /Loa
>
>
> --
>
>
> Loa = Andersson          &nbs= p;            = ; email: loa@mail01.huawei.com
> = Senior MPLS = Expert           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;  loa@pi.nu
> Huawei = Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 = 64
>
> = <statsv2.xlsx>

------=_NextPart_000_0119_01CFA643.224B8CF0-- From nobody Wed Jul 23 04:24:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E0221A038A; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 04:24:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OM-iICZKAkto; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 04:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1lp0141.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.141]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F170B1A037D; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 04:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CO2PR05MB732.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.228.22) by CO2PR05MB730.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.141.228.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.990.7; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:24:16 +0000 Received: from CO2PR05MB732.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.228.22]) by CO2PR05MB732.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.228.22]) with mapi id 15.00.0990.007; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:24:16 +0000 From: John Scudder To: "Giles Heron (giheron)" Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad Thread-Index: AQHPpf9IM04b0e02pk+dfc3mGMfie5utSuGAgAB/voD//7KzgIAAAgqAgAAF68M= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:24:15 +0000 Message-ID: <6CFF2DD2-D3A4-410E-8320-F0E9A789EE71@juniper.net> References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> <011801cfa664$a9573980$fc05ac80$@ndzh.com>, <2AC27E6E-7994-47F6-B6AA-875E9FAB4047@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <2AC27E6E-7994-47F6-B6AA-875E9FAB4047@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [206.47.221.210] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID: x-forefront-prvs: 028166BF91 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(6009001)(24454002)(377454003)(43544003)(189002)(199002)(83072002)(50986999)(85852003)(81342001)(83716003)(93886003)(66066001)(76176999)(36756003)(31966008)(20776003)(106356001)(107046002)(76482001)(54356999)(85306003)(77982001)(99286002)(92726001)(74502001)(95666004)(105586002)(19580395003)(21056001)(86362001)(79102001)(101416001)(80022001)(87936001)(19580405001)(74662001)(33656002)(2656002)(64706001)(83322001)(46102001)(81542001)(106116001)(4396001)(82746002)(92566001)(110136001)(99396002)(104396001)(42262001); DIR:OUT; SFP:; SCL:1; SRVR:CO2PR05MB730; H:CO2PR05MB732.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/O-tCxbthCdzl30Dbz_BAKkQ6kmw Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" , "Andrew G. Malis" , Susan Hares , Loa Andersson Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:24:20 -0000 On Jul 23, 2014, at 7:12 AM, "Giles Heron (giheron)" wr= ote: > I think my point was rather that I'm not sure metrics are what we should = be concentrating on in this debate. Numbers can be made to say just about = anything, after all ;) That was more-or-less the point I had been waiting to make when we ran out = of time yesterday. That, plus, bad (or the wrong) metrics are worse than no= metrics, so take care.=20 --John= From nobody Wed Jul 23 04:30:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBFE81A0453 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 04:30:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZVPKQfieEIrg for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 04:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.23.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C6F191A0380 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 04:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12714 invoked by uid 0); 23 Jul 2014 11:30:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw3) (10.0.90.84) by gproxy4.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 23 Jul 2014 11:30:12 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw3 with id VtW51o00m2SSUrH01tW82P; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:30:11 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=fudPOjIf c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=cNaOj0WVAAAA:8 a=f5113yIGAAAA:8 a=Mp07CAuinD0A:10 a=Lhyv8l1xRe4A:10 a=HFCU6gKsb0MA:10 a=wU2YTnxGAAAA:8 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=9SVZ0dGN6bwA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=9iDbn-4jx3cA:10 a=cKsnjEOsciEA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=ABeY7kuGAAAA:8 a=RFcmiRFDnyN0AowMFKEA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=chC_agHSu74A:10 a=Xked-Dsx8X5pAU4obd8A:9 a=ZTA9Mu2krr5b7Yn9:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Date:CC:To:From; bh=8YIAnvFOpSxzngQNLtiIO3M7ZQj28Cti0a+x+NFdjz4=; b=jpruGnjg3Kabf2scNIZ3jMl+mN8svtg++b2XBgkuVDlq8Sh5cx7vK6467P48U1j40QyFZDtnUwcPdpI/0XpKZG+XMbfNNoI2iUKJP96HbceINSH8KcSEJ0s2usSR91m9; Received: from [31.133.146.239] (port=32810) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1X9ukI-0007Mc-TK; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 05:30:07 -0600 From: Lou Berger To: Alia Atlas , "Joel M. Halpern" Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:30:05 -0400 Message-ID: <14762fc3690.27e9.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 AquaMail/1.4.0.30 (build: 2100451) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------14762fc437d1b2227e942d14be8" X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 31.133.146.239 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/jylekvPJ83jzN2J2zRnFCZwwG3Y Cc: Adrian Farrel , Thomas Clausen , rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] Consultative Session on RTG Reorg in Toronto -- input X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:30:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------14762fc437d1b2227e942d14be8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Alia/Adrian, While this point didn't come up directly yesterday, perhaps due to Joel's absence, there is a case in your plan. In particular TE routing occurs in the core protocol group (s) while requirements come from the new TE group. As others have mentioned, we've had very good success in developing TE routing extensions together with requirements, framework and signaling in ccamp, with good cooperation and support of the related IGP WG. If you do decided to go a head with the reorganization as described yesterday, I think excluding TE routing solutions from the te 'requirements and signalling' group qualifies as the issue raised by Joel. Lou On July 22, 2014 11:10:50 AM Alia Atlas wrote: > Joel, > > First I've heard of that idea... > > Alia > > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:24 AM, Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > > I will not be able to make it to the meeting due to a conflicting meeting. > > > > Several people have mentioned an idea that apparently was floated, but > > which I missed if it was on the list. > > THe idea is to separate requirements generation (for various activities) > > from protocol generation to address those requirements. Not just separate > > them in time (we do that) but put them in different working groups. > > > > This strikes me as likely to cause trouble. Whether other folks have > > succeeded with this or not, the way the IETF works our requirements work is > > neither divorced from the solutions nor is it typically complete enough to > > be fully understood without context. So throwing requirements over a wall > > from one WG to another seems ineffective. One could argue that this > > separation is what KARPO did. But I would say that KARP did requirements, > > GAP Analysis, and then participated in the work on solution development for > > several iterations. In fact several times the work started in KARP, and > > only moved to the specific protocol group when it was reasonably clear that > > the problem was being addressed. > > > > Just a thought, > > Joel > > ------------14762fc437d1b2227e942d14be8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Alia/Adrian,

While this point didn't come up directly yesterday, perhaps due to Joel's absence, there is a case in your plan. In particular TE routing occurs in the core protocol group (s) while requirements come from the new TE group.

As others have mentioned,  we've had very good success in developing TE routing extensions together with requirements,  framework and signaling in ccamp, with good cooperation and support of the related IGP WG.

If you do decided to go a head with the reorganization as described yesterday,  I think excluding TE routing solutions from the te 'requirements and signalling' group qualifies as the issue raised by Joel.

Lou

On July 22, 2014 11:10:50 AM Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:

Joel,

First I've heard of that idea...

Alia


On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:24 AM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
I will not be able to make it to the meeting due to a conflicting meeting.

Several people have mentioned an idea that apparently was floated, but which I missed if it was on the list.
THe idea is to separate requirements generation (for various activities) from protocol generation to address those requirements.  Not just separate them in time (we do that) but put them in different working groups.

This strikes me as likely to cause trouble.  Whether other folks have succeeded with this or not, the way the IETF works our requirements work is neither divorced from the solutions nor is it typically complete enough to be fully understood without context.  So throwing requirements over a wall from one WG to another seems ineffective.  One could argue that this separation is what KARPO did.  But I would say that KARP did requirements, GAP Analysis, and then participated in the work on solution development for several iterations.  In fact several times the work started in KARP, and only moved to the specific protocol group when it was reasonably clear that the problem was being addressed.

Just a thought,
Joel

------------14762fc437d1b2227e942d14be8-- From nobody Wed Jul 23 04:35:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E7F1A03A4; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 03:32:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P8sL9ErBvtOj; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 03:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8C971A03B9; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 03:32:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=24668; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1406111548; x=1407321148; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=jIHH1Eg4GDV+CvK3LCOaIvOsBD7Dp54Y1jOf588+QZw=; b=WunA4E761huz+thPSDD9f9e1EKRnTinikWemM7gsGCzf3QJL5uEsTIYS vY1/n+nBN+EOjeMP4dDtXDqoUu3b58tyVlzYzsrwvZ9GN34kbfIzybLe8 CZ/57iGOBNlBV8S+pGAYyBA6MHEEbt7miXk5GqL8L8L7LL7vRApAA/bs6 U=; X-Files: statsv3.xlsx : 11761 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhAFAIOOz1OtJA2I/2dsb2JhbABZgkdHgSkEzyIBgQ0WdoQDAQEBAwFrDgUJAgIBCBguAhkGESUCBA4FDguIFQMJCLgGDYccFwSFIYd5gRU2DgMBJBEbB4MugRgBBJJBgUWFHYIDjhiGHINGbIEMOQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,716,1400025600"; d="xml'?rels'?scan'208,217,72,48?xlsx'208,217,72,48,72,48";a="63287398" Received: from alln-core-3.cisco.com ([173.36.13.136]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Jul 2014 10:32:27 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x11.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x11.cisco.com [173.37.183.85]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s6NAWRX0012254 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:32:27 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x04.cisco.com ([169.254.8.176]) by xhc-rcd-x11.cisco.com ([173.37.183.85]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 05:32:27 -0500 From: "Giles Heron (giheron)" To: "Andrew G. Malis" Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad Thread-Index: AQHPpf9IM04b0e02pk+dfc3mGMfie5utSuGAgAB/voA= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:32:27 +0000 Message-ID: <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.60.143.153] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_0C3E597932FE4F5B971E81F3D93173A2ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/iE0Tdl6en6NoSjWr6JkbO31p6xk X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 04:35:15 -0700 Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" , Loa Andersson Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:32:30 -0000 --_004_0C3E597932FE4F5B971E81F3D93173A2ciscocom_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0C3E597932FE4F5B971E81F3D93173A2ciscocom_" --_000_0C3E597932FE4F5B971E81F3D93173A2ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not sure that how helpful the exercise is? Is performance really relat= ed to how many people show up? There's no way after all to determine what = fraction of attendees are active participants vs "IETF tourists". And of c= ourse we're supposed to do more work outside meetings than in them. At any rate to be meaningful at all we need to weight the results by length= of WG meeting as time is the constraint we're trying to optimise for here = (I think!). I counted WG meeting durations in minutes (since L2VPN was 2 h= ours 10 mins - and I didn't have the time to type a recurring decimal). Co= uldn't find ROLL on the Vancouver Agenda though - so I used their London du= ration. Of course then the RFCs per minute were all rather low. In honour= of the recent World Cup I went for RFCs per football match (counting only = the players and the playing minutes - no allowance for referees, half-time,= injury time or extra time). the results show PWE3 a mile ahead of the rest, followed by BFD, then MPLS,= then a cluster of WGs with very similar productivity (L2VPN leading those = by a nose, but who am I to brag?) with L3VPN and then PCE (possibly the vic= tim of the recent SDN hype) bringing up the rear. like I say, does this really mean anything? Can I have the last half hour= of my life (or rather 1/66 of a football match) back? Giles On 23 Jul 2014, at 03:55, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Loa, > > I added one more column, to total all of the RFCs over the period. mpls c= ame in first in terms of total RFCs per capita, and pwe3 came in second. I = also agree with your conclusions. > > Cheers, > Andy > > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Loa Andersson wrote: > Folks, > > I took a look at the performance on rtg wg's. > > The spread sheet list the number of RFC's per working group > between two meeting. I've used the number of people who signed the > blue sheets in Vancouver as some type of average except for roll > that did not meet in Vancouver, where I used the London figure instead. > > Calculated the number of RFCs per person in the room. > > The highest figure has BFD 0.12 RFCs prior to the IETF84 meeting. > The highest absolute number of RFC is MPLS (this meeting). > The best trend has MPLS. > > Since I don't care too much about how much noise the non-participating > participants is exposed too, I don't think the a re-org is motivated > by the figures in the spread sheet. > > I guess I would go as far as too say that no arguments presented so far > motivates a re-org of the RTG area. > > Though I'm totally supportive of some well considered re-organization > of working groups, but > > - do it carefully > - at a time when it is optimal for the working groups > - involve the chairs to drive the re-org > - don't break things that work > > /Loa > > > -- > > > Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com > Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu > Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > > --_000_0C3E597932FE4F5B971E81F3D93173A2ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <0610607880F7F942A581F9F75F5530A6@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm not sure that how helpful the exercise is?&nbs= p; Is performance really related to how many people show up?  There's = no way after all to determine what fraction of attendees are active partici= pants vs "IETF tourists".  And of course we're supposed to do more work outside meetings than in them.

At any rate to be meaningful at all we need to weight the results by length= of WG meeting as time is the constraint we're trying to optimise for here = (I think!).  I counted WG meeting durations in minutes (since L2VPN wa= s 2 hours 10 mins - and I didn't have the time to type a recurring decimal).  Couldn't find ROLL on the Van= couver Agenda though - so I used their London duration.  Of course the= n the RFCs per minute were all rather low.  In honour of the recent Wo= rld Cup I went for RFCs per football match (counting only the players and the playing minutes - no allowance for referees, half= -time, injury time or extra time).

the results show PWE3 a mile ahead of the rest, followed by BFD, then MPLS,= then a cluster of WGs with very similar productivity (L2VPN leading those = by a nose, but who am I to brag?) with L3VPN and then PCE (possibly the vic= tim of the recent SDN hype) bringing up the rear.

like I say, does this really mean anything?   Can I have the last= half hour of my life (or rather 1/66 of a football match) back?

Giles




On 23 Jul 2014, at 03:55, Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com> wrote:<= br>
> Loa,
>
> I added one more column, to total all of the RFCs over the period. mpl= s came in first in terms of total RFCs per capita, and pwe3 came in second.= I also agree with your conclusions.
>
> Cheers,
> Andy
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> wrote= :
> Folks,
>
> I took a look at the performance on rtg wg's.
>
> The spread sheet list the number of RFC's per working group
> between two meeting. I've used the number of people who signed the
> blue sheets in Vancouver as some type of average except for roll
> that did not meet in Vancouver, where I used the London figure instead= .
>
> Calculated the number of RFCs per person in the room.
>
> The highest figure has BFD 0.12 RFCs prior to the IETF84 meeting.
> The highest absolute number of RFC is MPLS (this meeting).
> The best trend has MPLS.
>
> Since I don't care too much about how much noise the non-participating=
> participants is exposed too, I don't think the a re-org is motivated > by the figures in the spread sheet.
>
> I guess I would go as far as too say that no arguments presented so fa= r
> motivates a re-org of the RTG area.
>
> Though I'm totally supportive of some well considered re-organization<= br> > of working groups, but
>
> - do it carefully
> - at a time when it is optimal for the working groups
> - involve the chairs to drive the re-org
> - don't break things that work
>
> /Loa
>
>
> --
>
>
> Loa Andersson         &nb= sp;            =   email: loa@mail01.huawei.com
> Senior MPLS Expert        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;    loa@pi.nu
> Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +4= 6 739 81 21 64
>
> <statsv2.xlsx>

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RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XnEMysk_ajNB; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 04:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 682FB1A019C; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 04:03:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5204; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1406113392; x=1407322992; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=v+FsXp2sRYe3OEYezZllpANOHmfijQ7krpZiezhMyxY=; b=NCVXL90ecUiGyqSYa9Zl+v9LT5huXxL7y2ORH5M3ysebjxuuxhBBiRIZ si49nWsJXN9qGLLK6Q1IyDCVLrHTSbp+AgTVCjC62aUOkOQUngz9eDdDF 5URF8ESTXVSdCRvZlC4ozimshCSvTq823GLq/MiMz5dnPQEJgeDE3UlWA U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhEFAESVz1OtJV2Y/2dsb2JhbABZgw5SVwTHYIdFAYENFnaEAwEBAQMBaw4FCQICAQgOAwQBAQEnBxsGERQJCAIEDgUZiBUDCQgNuAANhxwXBIUhh3mBFTYOAgIBHDMCBYMugRgFmSOCA44YhhyDRmwBgUQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,716,1400025600"; d="scan'208";a="63299828" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Jul 2014 11:03:06 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x12.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x12.cisco.com [173.36.12.86]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s6NB36FF012910 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:03:06 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x04.cisco.com ([169.254.8.176]) by xhc-aln-x12.cisco.com ([173.36.12.86]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:03:06 -0500 From: "Giles Heron (giheron)" To: Susan Hares Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad Thread-Index: AQHPpf9IM04b0e02pk+dfc3mGMfie5utSuGAgAB/voCAAAaEgIAAAgwA Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:03:05 +0000 Message-ID: <2AC27E6E-7994-47F6-B6AA-875E9FAB4047@cisco.com> References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> <011801cfa664$a9573980$fc05ac80$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <011801cfa664$a9573980$fc05ac80$@ndzh.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.60.143.153] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <91E0C78F2F787E4B9CD4A8A6B1480221@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/myoFSRbWvrTlEGTttOExc7wkB-I X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 04:35:16 -0700 Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" , "Andrew G. Malis" , Loa Andersson Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:03:16 -0000 Hi Sue, I think my point was rather that I'm not sure metrics are what we should be= concentrating on in this debate. Numbers can be made to say just about an= ything, after all ;) Giles On 23 Jul 2014, at 11:55, Susan Hares wrote: > Giles: > =20 > The performance that IETF has utilized for its ADs, IETF chairs, and WG g= roups for 20 years has been: > =20 > Quantitative: > 1) RFC published > 2) WG groups formed and completed > 3) Administrative effectiveness (AFI/SAFIs, early code adoption, por= ts assigned=85 ) > 4) Number of authors and demographics on authors > 5) Statistics on the timing of RFCs and the timing of WG forming > 6) Statistics on attendance in WG/ IETF > =20 > Please note, I do know of a statistically valid analysis of the correlati= on between #6 an #1. If you do, I would be interested. > =20 > Qualitatively > 1) Technologies described in RFCs get deployed. > 2) IETF is collaborative (at IESG, at WG), > 3) People want to come (from surveys) =20 > =20 > The =93people=94 want to come falls into a qualitative experience that sa= ys =93important to learn about the technology=94. > =20 > http://www.arkko.com/tools/docstats.html has document statistics. > =20 > If you want to propose a new metric it can be useful going forward, but u= nless it is built on the data kept by the datatracker, we do not have the p= ast trends to defend it. You could also use the mail list information, bu= t we would need to use a long-running group to get a valid statistics. > =20 > Sue > From: Giles Heron (giheron) [mailto:giheron@cisco.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 6:32 AM > To: Andrew G. Malis > Cc: Loa Andersson; rtg-dir@ietf.org; rtg-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad > =20 > I'm not sure that how helpful the exercise is? Is performance really rel= ated to how many people show up? There's no way after all to determine wha= t fraction of attendees are active participants vs "IETF tourists". And of= course we're supposed to do more work outside meetings than in them. >=20 > At any rate to be meaningful at all we need to weight the results by leng= th of WG meeting as time is the constraint we're trying to optimise for her= e (I think!). I counted WG meeting durations in minutes (since L2VPN was 2= hours 10 mins - and I didn't have the time to type a recurring decimal). = Couldn't find ROLL on the Vancouver Agenda though - so I used their London = duration. Of course then the RFCs per minute were all rather low. In hono= ur of the recent World Cup I went for RFCs per football match (counting onl= y the players and the playing minutes - no allowance for referees, half-tim= e, injury time or extra time). >=20 > the results show PWE3 a mile ahead of the rest, followed by BFD, then MPL= S, then a cluster of WGs with very similar productivity (L2VPN leading thos= e by a nose, but who am I to brag?) with L3VPN and then PCE (possibly the v= ictim of the recent SDN hype) bringing up the rear. >=20 > like I say, does this really mean anything? Can I have the last half ho= ur of my life (or rather 1/66 of a football match) back? >=20 > Giles >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 23 Jul 2014, at 03:55, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >=20 > > Loa, > >=20 > > I added one more column, to total all of the RFCs over the period. mpls= came in first in terms of total RFCs per capita, and pwe3 came in second. = I also agree with your conclusions. > >=20 > > Cheers, > > Andy > >=20 > >=20 > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Loa Andersson wrote: > > Folks, > >=20 > > I took a look at the performance on rtg wg's. > >=20 > > The spread sheet list the number of RFC's per working group > > between two meeting. I've used the number of people who signed the > > blue sheets in Vancouver as some type of average except for roll > > that did not meet in Vancouver, where I used the London figure instead. > >=20 > > Calculated the number of RFCs per person in the room. > >=20 > > The highest figure has BFD 0.12 RFCs prior to the IETF84 meeting. > > The highest absolute number of RFC is MPLS (this meeting). > > The best trend has MPLS. > >=20 > > Since I don't care too much about how much noise the non-participating > > participants is exposed too, I don't think the a re-org is motivated > > by the figures in the spread sheet. > >=20 > > I guess I would go as far as too say that no arguments presented so far > > motivates a re-org of the RTG area. > >=20 > > Though I'm totally supportive of some well considered re-organization > > of working groups, but > >=20 > > - do it carefully > > - at a time when it is optimal for the working groups > > - involve the chairs to drive the re-org > > - don't break things that work > >=20 > > /Loa > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com > > Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu > > Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > >=20 > > >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 23 05:05:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDDB11A0AC0 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 05:05:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.467 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.467 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_91=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FtY-OUsZ342g for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 05:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.23.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BD47A1A0A9F for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 05:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26776 invoked by uid 0); 23 Jul 2014 12:05:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw4) (10.0.90.85) by gproxy4.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 23 Jul 2014 12:05:13 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw4 with id Vu561o00s2SSUrH01u59BP; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 12:05:11 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=OcELUHjY c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=WrhVjQHxoPwA:10 a=zqHLjNqbk_wA:10 a=HFCU6gKsb0MA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=wU2YTnxGAAAA:8 a=cNaOj0WVAAAA:8 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=uEJ9t1CZtbIA:10 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=7xPyp7LSBkGDkgT6ofoA:9 a=aFWM0igt9LHy5JB9:21 a=paBcm47MSIfgH0O7:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=33rK67OTR_gA:10 a=lZB815dzVvQA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=UgcAzg/cKvbDWqD/iEK1jE3HCEu7J0Mfjt4/UtcG3Io=; b=asA/fKN1zUrDXznKizeh+AMuPOS6c6dwqhJ14l9ik8jDMVAkMnPEx9NyavmoTWlEPkXDcz0Po4dVEGAnUZSRe1qSAZsQzqgrFA+w4yt9l2+zhyM0YOcR5GZ5rvMNSSKA; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:56985 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1X9vIB-0007oW-8K; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:05:08 -0600 Message-ID: <53CFA4FC.3080304@labn.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 08:05:16 -0400 From: Lou Berger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yaacov Weingarten , Jeong Ryoo References: <53A5ABED.9080408@labn.net> <5B4A6CBE3924BB41A3BEE462A8E0B75A28748144@SMTP2.etri.info> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/R-oONXc7bGP0dOC0u9V40MiIYC0 Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] [mpls] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 12:05:23 -0000 Yaacov, Jeong, I'm not sure how the latest text addresses the ambiguity you identified below. Perhaps adding the words "on a per LSP basis" to the requirement? If the ambiguity is intentional, then of course no change is warranted. Lou On 7/5/2014 3:49 PM, Yaacov Weingarten wrote: > > Lou, hi > I would like to address two of your comments, in your follow-up > message, since I am the source of the change in terminology. > > Regarding the two occurences of "assigned" in place of "utilized" - > when I read the proposed changes,as discussed amongst the authors, I > felt that in those two instances the use of "utilized" could lead to > some ambiguity. > > If we state that "resources SHOULD be utilized on a first come first > served basis" this could be interpreted (IMO) as referring to the > packet level, rather than utilized by a specific path, such that > packets from different paths could be interspersed along the shared > segments. Therefore,I suggested that or this context it would be > better to use a word that meant that the first-come first served basis > was at the level of assigning (or allocating) the resources rather > than utilizing them. > > Hope this clarifies this point. I am certain that I speak for the > other authors in saying that I am open to other suggestions. > > BR, > yaacov > > On Jul 4, 2014 3:53 AM, "Jeong Ryoo" > wrote: > > Dear Lou, > > > > Thanks a lot for your valuable comments. > > > > The authors of this draft have discussed your comments, and are > proposing our resolutions to your comments. Please, let us know if > the proposal is appropriate to address your comments and concerns. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Authors of draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements draft > > > > ****** Beginning of Comment Resolution ****** > > > > - Document's usage of "committed" vs "allocated" resources: > > In section 1 the document introduces the notion that the > distinction between protection and restoration is based on when > resources are "committed". This difference from past > definition. RFC4427 and 6372 make the distinction that protection > and restoration differ based on when resources are *allocated* not > *committed*. To quote RFC 4427: > > The distinction between protection and restoration is made based > on the resource allocation done during the recovery LSP/span > establishment. The distinction between different types of > restoration is made based on the level of route computation, > signaling, and resource allocation during the restoration > LSP/span establishment. > > This difference also leads to come confused statements in the > document as well as ambiguity in the text, i.e. confusion by the > reader. The term "committed" is not tightly defined in this > document (or earlier work) and is used differently than how > "allocated" has been used. An example of this can be found in > Section 3.1 which states: > > However, the commitment of the resources, at least for the > shared segments, will only be finalized when the protection > path is actually activated. Therefore, for the purists - > regarding the terminology - SMP lies somewhere between > protection and restoration. > > Both sentences are problematic. In the first, commitment seems to > cover a "protection switch" would "connect" the protection path > but not the earlier "allocation" of resources. (Quoted terms are > used in earlier RFCs.) The second conclusion is based on the new > distinction of protection vs. restoration and is unnecessary with > the existing distinction. > > This issue exists in multiple places in the document where > "committed" is used and I'd recommend that each should be replaced > with terminology used in the referenced RFCs, i.e., "allocation", > "connection", "cross-connect", "protection switch(over)", ... > > Note I'm *not* highlighting all cases where there are problems in the > document related to this issue. There are a couple of places in the > document where I think it's possible that once this terminology > ambiguity is corrected that I'll have other substantive comments. > > > > [Authors] After reviewing RFCs 4427, 6372, 3945, 4426, and 4428, > we concluded that the distinction between protection and > restoration should be aligned with the exiting documents > normatively referenced by this document. Accordingly, the > following 16 modifications will be done in revision: > > > > (1) Section 1, the third paragraph > > OLD: > > As pointed out > > in [RFC6372] and [RFC4428], applying 1+1 linear protection requires > > that resources are committed for use by both the working and > > protection paths. Applying 1:1 protection requires that the same > > resources are committed, but allows the resources of the protection > > path to be utilized for pre-emptible extra traffic. > > NEW: > > As pointed out > > in [RFC6372] and [RFC4428], applying 1+1 protection requires > > that resources are allocated for use by both the working and > > protection paths. Applying 1:1 protection requires that the same > > resources are allocated, but allows the resources of the protection > > path to be utilized for pre-emptible extra traffic. > > > > (2) The whole text in Section 3.1 will be replaced with: > > [RFC6372], based upon the definitions in [RFC4427], differentiates > between "protection" and "restoration" dependent upon the dynamism > of the resource allocation. The same distinction is used in > [RFC3945], [RFC4426], and [RFC4428]. This document also uses the > same distinction between protection and restoration as stated in > [RFC6372]. > > > > (3) In page 6, > > OLD: > > The use of preemption in the network is typically a business or > > policy decision such that when protection resources are contended, > > priority can be applied to determine to which parties the protection > > resources are committed. > > NEW: > > The use of preemption in the network is typically a business or > > policy decision such that when protection resources are contended, > > priority can be applied to determine which parties utilize the > protection > > resources. > > > > (4) Page 7, the first paragraph: > > OLD: > > the resources for the protection path are fully committed, > > NEW > > the resources for the protection path are fully dedicated, > > > > OLD: > > resources may be planned but would not be committed until … > > NEW: > > resources may be planned but would not be utilized until … > > > > (5) In the second paragraph in page 7, > > OLD: > > "Hard Preemption" requires the programming of selectors at the > ingress of each shared segment to specify which backup path has > the highest priority when committing protection resources, the > others being preempted. > > NEW > > "Hard Preemption" requires the programming of selectors at the > ingress of each shared segment to specify the priorities of backup > paths, so that traffic of lower priority paths can be preempted. > > > > (6) The first paragraph of Section 4.1: > > OLD: > > … and commit the associated resources. The commitment of resources > > is dependent upon … > > NEW: > > … and coordinate the utilization of the associated shared resources. > > The resource utilization coordination is dependent upon … > > > > (7) The second paragraph of Section 4.1: > > OLD: > > When the reserved resources of the shared segments are committed to a > > particular protection path, there may not be sufficient resources > > available for an additional protection path. This then implies that > > if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a protection > > switch, the commitment of the resources may fail. In order to > > optimize the operation of the commitment and preparing for cases of > > multiple working paths failing, the commitment of the shared > > resources are be coordinated between the different working paths in > > the SMP network. > > NEW: > > When the reserved resources of the shared segments are utilized by a > > particular protection path, there may not be sufficient resources > > available for an additional protection path. This then implies that > > if another working path of the SMP domain triggers a protection > > switch, the resource utilization coordination may fail. The > different working paths in > > the SMP network are involved in the resource utilization > coordination. > > . > > > > (8) Section 5.1, > > OLD: > > … and commit the associated resources. > > NEW > > … and coordinate the utilization of the associated shared resources. > > > > (9) In Section 5.1, > > OLD: > > In the case of multiple working paths failing, the commitment of the > > shared resources SHALL be coordinated between the different working > > paths in the SMP network. > > NEW: > > In the case of multiple working paths failing, the shared resource > utilization > > coordination SHALL be between the different working > > paths in the SMP network. > > > > (10) Section 5.1.1. > > OLD: > > … because they already have been committed to the protection of, > for example, a higher priority working path. > > NEW: > > … because they already have been utilized for the protection of, > for example, a higher priority working path. > > > > (11) Section 5.2, the second bullet item: > > OLD: > > Resources of the shared segments SHALL be committed to the > > protection path … > > NEW: > > Resources of the shared segments SHALL be utilized by the > > protection path … > > > > (12) Section 5.2, the third bullet item: > > OLD: > > If multiple protection paths of equal priority are requesting > > allocation of the shared resources, the resources SHOULD be > > committed on a first come first served basis. > > NEW: > > If multiple protection paths of equal priority are requesting > > the shared resources, the resources SHOULD be > > assigned on a first come first served basis. > > > > (13) Section 5.2, the fourth bullet item: > > OLD: > > If the protection resources are committed to a protection path, > > whose working path has a lower priority, resources required for > > the higher priority path SHALL be committed to the higher priority > > path. > > NEW: > > If the protection resources are utilized by a protection path, > > whose working path has a lower priority, resources required for > > the higher priority path SHALL be assigned to the higher priority > > path. > > > > > > (14) Section 5.2. the seventh bullet item > > OLD: > > Once resources of shared segments have been successfully committed > > to a protection path, … > > NEW: > > Once resources of shared segments have been successfully utilized > > by a protection path, … > > > > (15) Section 5.3, the first paragraph, > > OLD: > > … request the commitment of protection resources. If the necessary > > shared resources are unavailable to be committed to the protection > > path, the endpoints … > > > > NEW: > > … request the coordination of the shared resource utilization. If > the necessary > > shared resources are unavailable, the endpoints … > > > > (16) Section 5.3, the second paragraph, > > OLD: > > Similarly, if preemption is supported and the resources currently > > committed for a particular working path are … > > NEW: > > Similarly, if preemption is supported and the resources currently > > utilized by a particular working path are … > > > > > > - Section 2, 1st paragraph, last sentence. This sentence really > defines > the scope/purpose of the document, i.e., "clarifies the instructions > to protocol designers producing solutions that satisfy the > requirements set out in this document." As such, I'd repeat this in > the abstract and move it to a more pronounced place in section 1 (or > 3). > > [Authors] We can add the following paragraph at the end of Section 1: > > “This document is intended to clarify the instructions to protocol > designers producing solutions that satisfy the requirements set > out in this document.” > > > > > - General comment: fate-sharing for co-routed bidirectional LSP > protection: How is co-routing preserved for the reverse path in SMP? > I'd assumed the protection switch coordination protocol would be > required to trigger a switchover of the reverse LSP in the co-routed > case, but don't see this in the document. > > [Authors] Fate-sharing is not required by this document. Even in > the PSC linear protection switching, such as RFC 6378 (PSC) and > RFC 7271 (PSC in APS mode), fate-sharing is not required as > unidirectional switching is allowed. This document does not impose > any restriction on co-routing, either. > > > > > - In section 4 and 5.2 you reference 5712 and 3209 as defining > preemption terminology and behavior. I think 6372 is the right > reference here as it defines both in the context of survivability and > in dependent of control plane. > > [Authors] One concern is that RFC 6372 describes both soft and > hard preemptions in the context of extra traffic, which is not > exactly the case for SMP. > > > > > - In section 4.2 you say "Therefore, it is suggested that this be > carried out under the control of a dynamic control plane similar to > GMPLS [RFC3945]." perhaps you mean "based on GMPLS"? If so, great, > please make the correction. If not, I think the debate of which > control protocol is used for MPLS-TP is way beyond the scope of this > document. > > [Authors] Yes, we will make the correction. > > > > > - Section 5.1, paragraph 1. Why are you using "SHOULD NOT" here? If > referring to solutions conformant with this document, then these are > informative statements, "and a non-control plane based SMP switchover > mechanism is used, the control plane SHALL NOT ...". If referring to > an operator's/user's choice of protection mechanism, I think the most > you can say is MAY. > > [Authors] The first case is the one we are aiming at. We will use > SHALL NOT. > > > > > - Section 5.2. "Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP > domain." As this is a requirement, what you mean by "tie-breaking > rules" should be defined directly or by reference. > > [Authors] The sentence can be rewritten as: > > OLD: > > Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP domain. > > NEW: > > In order to cover the situation where the first come first served > principle cannot resolve the contention among multiple equal > priority requests, i.e., when the requests occur simultaneously,, > tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP domain. > > > > > > > - Section 5.3. RFC6372 takes an approach where preemption notification > leverages the standard MPLS-TP OAM mechanisms, is there any reason to > do more / not just follow 6372? > > [Authors] We can add the following sentence at the end: > > “As described in [RFC6372], the event of preemption may be > detected by OAM and reported as a fault or a degradation of > traffic delivery.” > > > - Section 5.7. There may be coordination required on > soft-preemption as > well (depending on the cross-connects established during LSP > establishment) so coordinated switching should be supported > independent of preemption mode. > > [Authors] Yes, we will change the second paragraph from “SMP in > hard-preemption mode SHOULD …” to “SMP SHOULD …” and move the > changed paragraph above the first paragraph. > > > > > Nits: > > - Abstract: I don't recall the term "executive action" being used > in any > earlier related/referenced RFCs. Rather than introduce a new (and > undefined) term, perhaps you can use an existing one, e.g., > "protection switch"? > > [Authors] Yes, the term will be changed as you suggested. > > > > > - Section 1, paragraph 1. Do we really need another definition of > MPLS-TP to debate? I suggest just referencing your favorite MPLS-TP > document(s) and dropping the first four sentences. > > The last sentence also makes a subjective statement. Whether it is > critical or no is unnecessary. You can just say something like 6372 > provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP and is the foundation > for this document. > > [Authors] The proposed text for the paragraph 1 is: > > “The MPLS Transport Profile (MPLS-TP) is described in [RFC5921], > > and [RFC6372] provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP > > and is the foundation for this document.” > > > > > - Section 1, paragraph 3. Isn't the right reference 4427 not 4428? > Also drop the word linear, as it is an unnecessary qualifier and > 4427/4428 don't use it. > > [Authors] OK. > > > > > > > - Sections 3 (and to a lesser degree section 2) are really > introductory > text. I'm unsure as to why they aren't part of section 1. > > [Authors] Section 3 was intended to present a reference model for > SMP. Some text of Section 2 is repeated in Section 1 as you > suggested earlier. > > > > > > > - Section 3.2 should have a reference for "existing control plane > solutions for SMP within MPLS". > > [Authors] [RFC4206] will be added as a reference > > > - Section 3.2 again uses the "executive action" term. > > [Authors] OK, the term will be changed. > > > > > - Section 4.1. You say "two operations simultaneously". Do you really > mean "simultaneously" or merely that they must both occur for > protection to be provided? (Same comment in section 5.1. > > [Authors] Both actions should occur at the same time, or as > closely as possible to provide fast protection. > > > > > - Section 5.2. I suggest numbering the currently bulletted > requirements > list. > > [Authors] OK, we will use numbers. > > > > > - Section 5.2: First paragraph and forth bullet last sentence. These > both basically cover the same topic (preemption) and actually say > slightly different things. I suggest combine into a single > requirement to ensure consistency and full coverage of the topic. > > [Authors] The first paragraph is for soft-preemption, while the > fourth bullet belongs to the requirements of hard-preemption. > > > - Section 5.2, req 5. How does this relate to section 5.5? Shouldn't > the topics related to timing be consolidated? > > [Authors] Yes, req 5 can be moved to Section 5.5. > > > > > - Section 5.2: requirement 6 seems to be a subset of 7, so it > should be > dropped. > > [Authors] Yes, it will be deleted. > > > - Section 5.2, requirement 8. Isn't this a subset of 9? Why call out > just this one traffic treatment (sub) requirement? > > [Authors] Req. 9 will be deleted as it seems to require control > plane supports. > > > > - Section 5.3. s/MAY/will > > [Authors] OK. > > > > > - section 5.4: " When the working path detects.." detection is by the > node not the path. > > [Authors] Yes. We will simply say that “When the condition that > triggered the protection switching is cleared, …” > > > - Section 5.4, last sentence. This is only the 2nd time you imply that > the document covers requirements on a new protocol. I think this > point is currently too subtle in the document. (This point was also > made as a minor comment.) > > [Authors] As in other protection switching technologies, two modes > of operations (revertive and non-revertive) are required. > > > > > - section 5.6. RFC 6372 should be referenced > > [Authors] We will add “as described in [RFC6372]” to the ends of > two paragraphs for WTR timer and hold-off timer. > > > > ***** End of Comment resolution ***** > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *보낸 사람 : *"Lou Berger" > > *보낸 날짜 : *2014-06-22 01:00:48 ( +09:00 ) > *받는 사람 : *rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org > > > *참조 : *rtg-dir@ietf.org > >, > draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements.all@tools.ietf.org > > >, > mpls@ietf.org > > *제목 : *[mpls] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt > > > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this > draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or > routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG > review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is > to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information > about the > Routing Directorate, please see > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing > ADs, it > would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF > Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them > through > discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-mpls-smp-requirements-06.txt > Reviewer: Lou Berger > Review Date: June 21 2014 > IETF LC End Date: 2014-06-23 > Intended Status: Informational > > Summary: > I have some minor concerns about this document that I think > should (must, actually) be resolved before publication. > > Comments: > > I think the document is well written and, other than a couple of > terminology related issues, easily understood. The document does > have a number of terminology and technical issues which should be > readily resolved prior to publication. > > Major Issues: > > Major issues are the type of concerns that will result in the > document being blocked until they are resolved. The Routing ADs will > become involved. Please include all of the major issues you have > found. Give as much context information as possible (e.g., section > numbers, paragraph counts). If you find no major issues, please > write: "No major issues found." > > - No major issues found. In particular, I expect all issues can be > resolved without AD intervention. Some of the minor issues, if not > resolved will be escalated to the AD/major issue category. > > Minor Issues: > > Minor issues are concerns about clarity or technical accuracy that > should be discussed and resolved before publication, but which would > normally be resolved between the authors and the reviewers. Please > include all of the minor issues you have found. Give as much context > information as possible (e.g., section numbers, paragraph counts). > If you find no minor issues, please write: "No minor issues found." > > - Document's usage of "committed" vs "allocated" resources: > > In section 1 the document introduces the notion that the > distinction between protection and restoration is based on when > resources are "committed". This difference from past > definition. RFC4427 and 6372 make the distinction that protection > and restoration differ based on when resources are *allocated* not > *committed*. To quote RFC 4427: > > The distinction between protection and restoration is made based > on the resource allocation done during the recovery LSP/span > establishment. The distinction between different types of > restoration is made based on the level of route computation, > signaling, and resource allocation during the restoration > LSP/span establishment. > > This difference also leads to come confused statements in the > document as well as ambiguity in the text, i.e. confusion by the > reader. The term "committed" is not tightly defined in this > document (or earlier work) and is used differently than how > "allocated" has been used. An example of this can be found in > Section 3.1 which states: > > However, the commitment of the resources, at least for the > shared segments, will only be finalized when the protection > path is actually activated. Therefore, for the purists - > regarding the terminology - SMP lies somewhere between > protection and restoration. > > Both sentences are problematic. In the first, commitment seems to > cover a "protection switch" would "connect" the protection path > but not the earlier "allocation" of resources. (Quoted terms are > used in earlier RFCs.) The second conclusion is based on the new > distinction of protection vs. restoration and is unnecessary with > the existing distinction. > > This issue exists in multiple places in the document where > "committed" is used and I'd recommend that each should be replaced > with terminology used in the referenced RFCs, i.e., "allocation", > "connection", "cross-connect", "protection switch(over)", ... > > Note I'm *not* highlighting all cases where there are problems in the > document related to this issue. There are a couple of places in the > document where I think it's possible that once this terminology > ambiguity is corrected that I'll have other substantive comments. > > - Section 2, 1st paragraph, last sentence. This sentence really > defines > the scope/purpose of the document, i.e., "clarifies the instructions > to protocol designers producing solutions that satisfy the > requirements set out in this document." As such, I'd repeat this in > the abstract and move it to a more pronounced place in section 1 (or > 3). > > - General comment: fate-sharing for co-routed bidirectional LSP > protection: How is co-routing preserved for the reverse path in SMP? > I'd assumed the protection switch coordination protocol would be > required to trigger a switchover of the reverse LSP in the co-routed > case, but don't see this in the document. > > - In section 4 and 5.2 you reference 5712 and 3209 as defining > preemption terminology and behavior. I think 6372 is the right > reference here as it defines both in the context of survivability and > in dependent of control plane. > > - In section 4.2 you say "Therefore, it is suggested that this be > carried out under the control of a dynamic control plane similar to > GMPLS [RFC3945]." perhaps you mean "based on GMPLS"? If so, great, > please make the correction. If not, I think the debate of which > control protocol is used for MPLS-TP is way beyond the scope of this > document. > > - Section 5.1, paragraph 1. Why are you using "SHOULD NOT" here? If > referring to solutions conformant with this document, then these are > informative statements, "and a non-control plane based SMP switchover > mechanism is used, the control plane SHALL NOT ...". If referring to > an operator's/user's choice of protection mechanism, I think the most > you can say is MAY. > > - Section 5.2. "Tie-breaking rules SHALL be defined in scope of an SMP > domain." As this is a requirement, what you mean by "tie-breaking > rules" should be defined directly or by reference. > > - Section 5.3. RFC6372 takes an approach where preemption notification > leverages the standard MPLS-TP OAM mechanisms, is there any reason to > do more / not just follow 6372? > > - Section 5.7. There may be coordination required on > soft-preemption as > well (depending on the cross-connects established during LSP > establishment) so coordinated switching should be supported > independent of preemption mode. > > Nits: > > - Abstract: I don't recall the term "executive action" being used > in any > earlier related/referenced RFCs. Rather than introduce a new (and > undefined) term, perhaps you can use an existing one, e.g., > "protection switch"? > > - Section 1, paragraph 1. Do we really need another definition of > MPLS-TP to debate? I suggest just referencing your favorite MPLS-TP > document(s) and dropping the first four sentences. > > The last sentence also makes a subjective statement. Whether it is > critical or no is unnecessary. You can just say something like 6372 > provides a survivability framework for MPLS-TP and is the foundation > for this document. > > - Section 1, paragraph 3. Isn't the right reference 4427 not 4428? > Also drop the word linear, as it is an unnecessary qualifier and > 4427/4428 don't use it. > > - Sections 3 (and to a lesser degree section 2) are really > introductory > text. I'm unsure as to why they aren't part of section 1. > > - Section 3.2 should have a reference for "existing control plane > solutions for SMP within MPLS". > > - Section 3.2 again uses the "executive action" term. > > - Section 4.1. You say "two operations simultaneously". Do you really > mean "simultaneously" or merely that they must both occur for > protection to be provided? (Same comment in section 5.1. > > - Section 5.2. I suggest numbering the currently bulletted > requirements > list. > > - Section 5.2: First paragraph and forth bullet last sentence. These > both basically cover the same topic (preemption) and actually say > slightly different things. I suggest combine into a single > requirement to ensure consistency and full coverage of the topic. > > - Section 5.2, req 5. How does this relate to section 5.5? Shouldn't > the topics related to timing be consolidated? > > - Section 5.2: requirement 6 seems to be a subset of 7, so it > should be > dropped. > > - Section 5.2, requirement 8. Isn't this a subset of 9? Why call out > just this one traffic treatment (sub) requirement? > > - Section 5.3. s/MAY/will > > - section 5.4: " When the working path detects.." detection is by the > node not the path. > > - Section 5.4, last sentence. This is only the 2nd time you imply that > the document covers requirements on a new protocol. I think this > point is currently too subtle in the document. (This point was also > made as a minor comment.) > > - section 5.6. RFC 6372 should be referenced > > > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list > mpls@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls > > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list > mpls@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls > From nobody Wed Jul 23 05:51:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35161A0B01; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 05:51:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1QZtqQVZkb9G; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 05:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emea01-am1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am1lp0016.outbound.protection.outlook.com [213.199.154.16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E01AF1A0117; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 05:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.242.110.144) by AM3PR03MB610.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.242.109.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.990.7; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 12:51:25 +0000 Received: from AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.110.144]) by AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.110.144]) with mapi id 15.00.0990.007; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 12:51:25 +0000 From: Alexander Vainshtein To: John Scudder , "Giles Heron (giheron)" Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad Thread-Index: AQHPpf80czvDOyGBQEukadUvLR5gxJutSuGAgAB/voD//7KzgIAAAgqAgAAF68OAAABHcA== Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 12:51:25 +0000 Message-ID: <036d1ff7201340c48135ac0a38b05684@AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> <011801cfa664$a9573980$fc05ac80$@ndzh.com>, <2AC27E6E-7994-47F6-B6AA-875E9FAB4047@cisco.com> <6CFF2DD2-D3A4-410E-8320-F0E9A789EE71@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <6CFF2DD2-D3A4-410E-8320-F0E9A789EE71@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.234.56.21] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID: x-forefront-prvs: 028166BF91 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(6009001)(377454003)(36944003)(24454002)(43544003)(13464003)(51704005)(189002)(252514010)(199002)(53754006)(85852003)(83072002)(107046002)(92566001)(106116001)(85306003)(99936001)(79102001)(76176999)(54356999)(95666004)(21056001)(76576001)(2656002)(87936001)(105586002)(74316001)(33646002)(101416001)(66066001)(31966008)(20776003)(81342001)(80022001)(99396002)(50986999)(81542001)(86362001)(4396001)(83322001)(74662001)(74502001)(93886003)(106356001)(19580405001)(15975445006)(46102001)(64706001)(77982001)(76482001)(19580395003)(108616002)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:; SCL:1; SRVR:AM3PR03MB610; H:AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_002_036d1ff7201340c48135ac0a38b05684AM3PR03MB612eurprd03pro_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ecitele.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/LrOHBleAJiB91kA9eFsZKoYCMDo Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , Loa Andersson , "Andrew G. Malis" , Susan Hares , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 12:51:31 -0000 --_002_036d1ff7201340c48135ac0a38b05684AM3PR03MB612eurprd03pro_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, One example of "what is bad" is the cases when drafts reach advanced stage = (or even are published as RFCs) with serious technical problems/gaps. E.g., I have just now submitted an Errata to RFC 7257 "Virtual Private LAN = Service (VPLS) Management Information Base" reporting what I see as a serio= us technical gap in an RFC that has been published earlier this month. Another example is, IMO, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-d= eprecate-bgp-entropy-label: in this case the authors have discovered a seri= ous bug in an already published RFC 6970 that requires deprecation of one o= f its elements. While these case may be relatively rare, the definitely fall under the gene= ral category of "what is bad" IMO. I cannot point to any specific organizational or process change that would = reduce the number of these cases. But at least it makes sense to me to cons= ider them as valid use cases for estimating such changes. My 2c, Sasha=20 Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com Mobile: 054-9266302 > -----Original Message----- > From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Scudder > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 2:24 PM > To: Giles Heron (giheron) > Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; rtg-chairs@ietf.org; Andrew G. Malis; Susan Hares; = Loa > Andersson > Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad >=20 > On Jul 23, 2014, at 7:12 AM, "Giles Heron (giheron)" > wrote: > > I think my point was rather that I'm not sure metrics are what we shoul= d be > concentrating on in this debate. Numbers can be made to say just about > anything, after all ;) >=20 > That was more-or-less the point I had been waiting to make when we ran ou= t > of time yesterday. That, plus, bad (or the wrong) metrics are worse than = no > metrics, so take care. >=20 > --John --_002_036d1ff7201340c48135ac0a38b05684AM3PR03MB612eurprd03pro_ Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: attachment; creation-date="Wed, 23 Jul 2014 12:51:23 GMT"; modification-date="Wed, 23 Jul 2014 12:51:23 GMT" Received: from DBXPR03MB619.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.232.140) by AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.242.110.144) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.990.7 via Mailbox Transport; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 12:38:55 +0000 Received: from AMSPR03CA0022.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.242.14.150) by DBXPR03MB619.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.232.140) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.995.14; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 12:38:54 +0000 Received: from AM1FFO11FD037.protection.gbl (2a01:111:f400:7e00::194) by AMSPR03CA0022.outlook.office365.com (2a01:111:e400:8040::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.995.14 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 12:38:54 +0000 Received: from to365.ecitele.com (147.234.56.21) by AM1FFO11FD037.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.174.64.226) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.980.11 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 12:38:53 +0000 Received: from ILPTWPVEXCH01.ecitele.com (172.31.244.126) by ILPTWPVEXCH01.ecitele.com (172.31.244.126) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.913.22; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 15:38:52 +0300 Received: from ilptbmg01-out.ecitele.com (147.234.242.231) by ILPTWPVEXCH01.ecitele.com (172.31.244.126) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.913.22 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 15:38:52 +0300 Received: from rfc-editor.org ( [4.31.198.49]) by ilptbmg01-out.ecitele.com (Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 9F.9E.22932.302BFC35; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 16:00:54 +0300 (IDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id E2ED9180015; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 05:37:32 -0700 (PDT) From: RFC Errata System To: "tnadeau@lucidvision.com" , "kkoushik@brocade.com" , "romedira@cisco.com" , "akatlas@gmail.com" , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , "giheron@cisco.com" , "nabil.n.bitar@verizon.com" CC: Alexander Vainshtein , "l2vpn@ietf.org" , "rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org" Subject: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7257 (4059) Thread-Topic: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7257 (4059) Thread-Index: AQHPpnMRE/4IRKA2CEa4SUg+NYe9Hg== Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 12:37:32 +0000 Message-ID: <20140723123732.E2ED9180015@rfc-editor.org> Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AuthSource: AM1FFO11FD037.protection.gbl X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-auditid: 93eaf2e7-f79096d000005994-a3-53cfb2027cb0 x-brightmail-tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrHIsWRWlGSWpSXmKPExsXCIn/MUJdt0/lggyVPGS2mbv3A7MDosenf ccYAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujFU7ZrIVtAtVvF2+gbWB8ThfFyMnh4SAiUT7zousIDajgI3E 7lsz2CHiYhIX7q1n62Lk4hASWMUo0dN4mA0kISSQK9Gw4SsrSEJEYDajxJTzT5m7GDk4hAWM JV7O4QcxJQSMJFbuyQQpZwOKXlvyDqyVWcBfYse7eUwgNq+AucTSA9vAdrEIaEtcbd3ENoGR ZwEjwypG0cycgpKk3HQDQ73U5MyS1JxUveT83E2MQM9OfvXp+Q7GX/NVDjEKcDAq8fAqNp4L FmJNLCuuzD3EKMnBpCTKq7jkfLAQX1J+SmVGYnFGfFFpTmrxIUYJDmYlEd7VPUA53pTEyqrU onyYlDQHi5I4b4pUZLCQQHpiSWp2ampBahFMlomD/RCjDAeHkgTvj9VA3YJFqempFWmZOSXI ajhBBBfIGh6gNV9ACnmLCxJzizPTIYpOMSpKifNuA0kIgCQySvPgBsCi8RKjrJQwLyMDA4MQ D9AFuZklqPKvGMWBnhbm5V4DNIUnM68EbvoroMVMQItfJYAtLklESEk1MJplK3nmzzrVxOp1 uePWsXc7rir980tIkN8TPHl1apKNe3CCWXLk11jV2aIfT3z5+sr27941i2ZxFqhtDO4+siru x7bLN04vbVV5+/fLbkOLe9paajbX+Byu/GBQ+Xc81jv/y4oshYsxAmEb2/7FiR6Yeyk9s+tD twevQUODwvafMpvzKp/cdlJiKc5INNRiLipOBAChbcKTwQIAAA== authentication-results: symauth.service.identifier; spf=pass x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:147.234.56.21;CTRY:IL;IPV:CAL;IPV:NLI;IPV:NLI;EFV:NLI;SFV:SKN;SFS:;DIR:INB;SFP:;SCL:-1;SRVR:DBXPR03MB619;H:to365.ecitele.com;FPR:;LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7257, "Virtual Private LAN Service (VPLS) Management Information Base". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D7257&eid=3D4059 -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: Alexander ("Sasha") Vainshtein Section: 6 Original Text ------------- N/A - this is about some missing MIB objects that should be there Corrected Text -------------- N/A - this is hardly the right place to define missing MIB objects Notes ----- As per RFC 4762 (which defines at least one of the two VPLS types for which= this RFC defines Management Information Base), Virtual Switching Instance = (VSI)(a local representation of a given VPLS instance within a given PE) is= connected to CE devices via Attachment Circuits (AC). Hence I would expect= that Management Information Base for VPLS would provide for some represent= ation of ACs that perform this function for a given VSI. However, this RFC does not even mention attachment circuits in any way. I have tried to raise this issue with the WG and the authors. One of the au= thors has replied (see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/l2vpn/current/m= sg04539.html) that "ACs are attached to the VPLS instances and are represen= ted as IfMIB entries". However, neither Interfaces MIB nor any of its key e= lements (e.g., ifIndex) are mentioned in this RFC. Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC7257 (draft-ietf-l2vpn-vpls-mib-15) -------------------------------------- Title : Virtual Private LAN Service (VPLS) Management Informa= tion Base Publication Date : July 2014 Author(s) : T. Nadeau, Ed., A. Kiran Koushik, Ed., R. Mediratta, = Ed. Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : Layer 2 Virtual Private Networks Area : Routing Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG --_002_036d1ff7201340c48135ac0a38b05684AM3PR03MB612eurprd03pro_-- From nobody Wed Jul 23 06:11:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C19571A0AD5; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:10:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rt-ho8iFKK1q; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE71D1A0AE8; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.57.142] (unknown [206.47.221.210]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1BDED1802B19; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 15:10:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <53CFB462.8030603@pi.nu> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 15:10:58 +0200 From: Loa Andersson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Giles Heron (giheron)" , "Andrew G. Malis" References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/0w1GJJDg5Itzf76HvTNZzwKjIB0 Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 13:10:58 -0000 Giles and John, On 2014-07-23 12:32, Giles Heron (giheron) wrote: Giles: > like I say, does this really mean anything? Can I have the last half > hour of my life (or rather 1/66 of a football match) back? John: "bad (or the wrong) metrics are worse than no metric" You make my point! What I did to try to see if I by some simple (non-scientific) method could find some proof of what has been in this debate from the beginning. Restating this slightly "Giant working groups are inefficient since a large number of people will have to spend boring time listening to discussions/presentations on thing they are not interested in." Giant where not defined and the problem with statements that are made over and over again is that they over time become "true" even if there are nothing to substantiate them. Over time they become as bad as bad statistic! I don't think the original slide show anything that support the allegation above. It is true that the number of people in the room, the length of football matches, slot duration, the weather outside, the location, etc. If there is a small conclusion we can draw ii is that the people that are interested come to the wg meetings and we make good progress regardless of how many drone or tourists we have in the meeting. There has also been alleged that big groups have a higher ratio of drones, I can't find any support for that allegation. In summary - the metrics I have is useless when it comes to motivate or de-motivate an area re-org. To repeat what in the first mail, and which I think it would be good to converge on: I'm totally supportive of some well considered re-organization of working groups, - don't re-org the area, re-org working groups - do it carefully - at a time when it is optimal for the working groups - involve the chairs to drive the re-org - don't break things that work /Loa -- Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Wed Jul 23 06:30:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01B7A1B2957; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:30:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yKON3IM9bpyu; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EF3E1B2955; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.57.142] (unknown [206.47.221.210]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8F18F1802B19; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 15:30:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <53CFB910.3030607@pi.nu> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 15:30:56 +0200 From: Loa Andersson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexander Vainshtein , John Scudder , "Giles Heron (giheron)" References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> <011801cfa664$a9573980$fc05ac80$@ndzh.com>, <2AC27E6E-7994-47F6-B6AA-875E9FAB4047@cisco.com> <6CFF2DD2-D3A4-410E-8320-F0E9A789EE71@juniper.net> <036d1ff7201340c48135ac0a38b05684@AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <036d1ff7201340c48135ac0a38b05684@AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/Riby_BIgNqb9_DJpIvYvhuX2BV0 Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "Andrew G. Malis" , Susan Hares , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 13:30:53 -0000 Sasha, I agree that what you list are example of "bad things"! However, I don't see how it is related to a re-org of the area (which I also think is a bad idea) or of wg groups (which at times might be a very good idea). This I think is more related to another (good) initiative taken by the AD's - the working chair training; it also could be related to initiatives taken by some wg chairs, the wg review teams! It might be of interest that what is now RFC 6790 (which is the RFC I think you mean) was accepted as a wg doc before the MPLS-RT were looking at all MPLS drafts. /Loa On 2014-07-23 14:51, Alexander Vainshtein wrote: > Hi all, > One example of "what is bad" is the cases when drafts reach advanced stage (or even are published as RFCs) with serious technical problems/gaps. > > E.g., I have just now submitted an Errata to RFC 7257 "Virtual Private LAN Service (VPLS) Management Information Base" reporting what I see as a serious technical gap in an RFC that has been published earlier this month. > > Another example is, IMO, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-deprecate-bgp-entropy-label: in this case the authors have discovered a serious bug in an already published RFC 6970 that requires deprecation of one of its elements. > > While these case may be relatively rare, the definitely fall under the general category of "what is bad" IMO. > > I cannot point to any specific organizational or process change that would reduce the number of these cases. But at least it makes sense to me to consider them as valid use cases for estimating such changes. > > My 2c, > Sasha > Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com > Mobile: 054-9266302 > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Scudder >> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 2:24 PM >> To: Giles Heron (giheron) >> Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; rtg-chairs@ietf.org; Andrew G. Malis; Susan Hares; Loa >> Andersson >> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad >> >> On Jul 23, 2014, at 7:12 AM, "Giles Heron (giheron)" >> wrote: >>> I think my point was rather that I'm not sure metrics are what we should be >> concentrating on in this debate. Numbers can be made to say just about >> anything, after all ;) >> >> That was more-or-less the point I had been waiting to make when we ran out >> of time yesterday. That, plus, bad (or the wrong) metrics are worse than no >> metrics, so take care. >> >> --John -- Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Wed Jul 23 06:46:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C5D21B2793; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:46:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dXkfhd6mIkzm; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (hhc-web3.hickoryhill-consulting.com [64.9.205.143]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E202C1A0AC9; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:46:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.162.238; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Giles Heron \(giheron\)'" References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> <011801cfa664$a9573980$fc05ac80$@ndzh.com> <2AC27E6E-7994-47F6-B6AA-875E9FAB4047@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <2AC27E6E-7994-47F6-B6AA-875E9FAB4047@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 09:46:39 -0400 Message-ID: <005c01cfa67c$87b42780$971c7680$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQKoEM/Y/Vubz9dfpwP/nDHHq79/PAH8SQ9wApok1FgByE30QAMeS+r2AWPA0fICCrwfdwIpoaPdAdDjzH4CWHgAopli4nsg Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/41oTOktqIrx0YBOBiEqiepUq8TI Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-chairs@ietf.org, "'Andrew G. Malis'" , 'Loa Andersson' Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 13:46:46 -0000 Giles: Ah... Do you have a proposal for what you consider valid, and reasons for abandoning the traditional statistics. Sue -----Original Message----- From: Giles Heron (giheron) [mailto:giheron@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 7:03 AM To: Susan Hares Cc: Andrew G. Malis; Loa Andersson; rtg-dir@ietf.org; rtg-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad Hi Sue, I think my point was rather that I'm not sure metrics are what we should be concentrating on in this debate. Numbers can be made to say just about anything, after all ;) Giles On 23 Jul 2014, at 11:55, Susan Hares wrote: > Giles: > > The performance that IETF has utilized for its ADs, IETF chairs, and WG groups for 20 years has been: > > Quantitative: > 1) RFC published > 2) WG groups formed and completed > 3) Administrative effectiveness (AFI/SAFIs, early code adoption, ports assigned. ) > 4) Number of authors and demographics on authors > 5) Statistics on the timing of RFCs and the timing of WG forming > 6) Statistics on attendance in WG/ IETF > > Please note, I do know of a statistically valid analysis of the correlation between #6 an #1. If you do, I would be interested. > > Qualitatively > 1) Technologies described in RFCs get deployed. > 2) IETF is collaborative (at IESG, at WG), > 3) People want to come (from surveys) > > The "people" want to come falls into a qualitative experience that says "important to learn about the technology". > > http://www.arkko.com/tools/docstats.html has document statistics. > > If you want to propose a new metric it can be useful going forward, but unless it is built on the data kept by the datatracker, we do not have the past trends to defend it. You could also use the mail list information, but we would need to use a long-running group to get a valid statistics. > > Sue > From: Giles Heron (giheron) [mailto:giheron@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 6:32 AM > To: Andrew G. Malis > Cc: Loa Andersson; rtg-dir@ietf.org; rtg-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad > > I'm not sure that how helpful the exercise is? Is performance really related to how many people show up? There's no way after all to determine what fraction of attendees are active participants vs "IETF tourists". And of course we're supposed to do more work outside meetings than in them. > > At any rate to be meaningful at all we need to weight the results by length of WG meeting as time is the constraint we're trying to optimise for here (I think!). I counted WG meeting durations in minutes (since L2VPN was 2 hours 10 mins - and I didn't have the time to type a recurring decimal). Couldn't find ROLL on the Vancouver Agenda though - so I used their London duration. Of course then the RFCs per minute were all rather low. In honour of the recent World Cup I went for RFCs per football match (counting only the players and the playing minutes - no allowance for referees, half-time, injury time or extra time). > > the results show PWE3 a mile ahead of the rest, followed by BFD, then MPLS, then a cluster of WGs with very similar productivity (L2VPN leading those by a nose, but who am I to brag?) with L3VPN and then PCE (possibly the victim of the recent SDN hype) bringing up the rear. > > like I say, does this really mean anything? Can I have the last half hour of my life (or rather 1/66 of a football match) back? > > Giles > > > > > On 23 Jul 2014, at 03:55, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > > Loa, > > > > I added one more column, to total all of the RFCs over the period. mpls came in first in terms of total RFCs per capita, and pwe3 came in second. I also agree with your conclusions. > > > > Cheers, > > Andy > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Loa Andersson wrote: > > Folks, > > > > I took a look at the performance on rtg wg's. > > > > The spread sheet list the number of RFC's per working group between > > two meeting. I've used the number of people who signed the blue > > sheets in Vancouver as some type of average except for roll that did > > not meet in Vancouver, where I used the London figure instead. > > > > Calculated the number of RFCs per person in the room. > > > > The highest figure has BFD 0.12 RFCs prior to the IETF84 meeting. > > The highest absolute number of RFC is MPLS (this meeting). > > The best trend has MPLS. > > > > Since I don't care too much about how much noise the > > non-participating participants is exposed too, I don't think the a > > re-org is motivated by the figures in the spread sheet. > > > > I guess I would go as far as too say that no arguments presented so > > far motivates a re-org of the RTG area. > > > > Though I'm totally supportive of some well considered > > re-organization of working groups, but > > > > - do it carefully > > - at a time when it is optimal for the working groups > > - involve the chairs to drive the re-org > > - don't break things that work > > > > /Loa > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com > > Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu > > Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > > > > > From nobody Wed Jul 23 06:58:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E071A0B0B; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:58:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PxuZloHKMZXF; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D5BA1ACAD6; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.57.142] (unknown [206.47.221.210]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4A81B18013DA; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 15:58:44 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <53CFBF9D.9030300@pi.nu> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 15:58:53 +0200 From: Loa Andersson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Susan Hares , "'Giles Heron (giheron)'" References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> <011801cfa664$a9573980$fc05ac80$@ndzh.com> <2AC27E6E-7994-47F6-B6AA-875E9FAB4047@cisco.com> <005c01cfa67c$87b42780$971c7680$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <005c01cfa67c$87b42780$971c7680$@ndzh.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/rvnJ_wFinz1HeeJVurXvWLie9Xo Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org, "'Andrew G. Malis'" , rtg-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 13:58:48 -0000 Sue, I don't think that Giles says that we should abandon traditional statistics, merely that the "numbers" the way I used can be made to show what you want them to show. And sure I agree to that. I further think that there are no way to actually show what has been alleged about giant groups and long periods of uninteresting presentations. It is simply not true. Though it is possible to to make it seem true by repeating it often enough. I would be in favor of having some useful traditional statistics available per working group if it can be achieved with a reasonable amount of work. /Loa On 2014-07-23 15:46, Susan Hares wrote: > Giles: > > Ah... Do you have a proposal for what you consider valid, and reasons for > abandoning the traditional statistics. > > Sue > > -----Original Message----- > From: Giles Heron (giheron) [mailto:giheron@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 7:03 AM > To: Susan Hares > Cc: Andrew G. Malis; Loa Andersson; rtg-dir@ietf.org; rtg-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad > > Hi Sue, > > I think my point was rather that I'm not sure metrics are what we should be > concentrating on in this debate. Numbers can be made to say just about > anything, after all ;) > > Giles > > On 23 Jul 2014, at 11:55, Susan Hares wrote: > >> Giles: >> >> The performance that IETF has utilized for its ADs, IETF chairs, and WG > groups for 20 years has been: >> >> Quantitative: >> 1) RFC published >> 2) WG groups formed and completed >> 3) Administrative effectiveness (AFI/SAFIs, early code adoption, > ports assigned. ) >> 4) Number of authors and demographics on authors >> 5) Statistics on the timing of RFCs and the timing of WG forming >> 6) Statistics on attendance in WG/ IETF >> >> Please note, I do know of a statistically valid analysis of the > correlation between #6 an #1. If you do, I would be interested. >> >> Qualitatively >> 1) Technologies described in RFCs get deployed. >> 2) IETF is collaborative (at IESG, at WG), >> 3) People want to come (from surveys) >> >> The "people" want to come falls into a qualitative experience that says > "important to learn about the technology". >> >> http://www.arkko.com/tools/docstats.html has document statistics. >> >> If you want to propose a new metric it can be useful going forward, but > unless it is built on the data kept by the datatracker, we do not have the > past trends to defend it. You could also use the mail list information, > but we would need to use a long-running group to get a valid statistics. >> >> Sue >> From: Giles Heron (giheron) [mailto:giheron@cisco.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 6:32 AM >> To: Andrew G. Malis >> Cc: Loa Andersson; rtg-dir@ietf.org; rtg-chairs@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad >> >> I'm not sure that how helpful the exercise is? Is performance really > related to how many people show up? There's no way after all to determine > what fraction of attendees are active participants vs "IETF tourists". And > of course we're supposed to do more work outside meetings than in them. >> >> At any rate to be meaningful at all we need to weight the results by > length of WG meeting as time is the constraint we're trying to optimise for > here (I think!). I counted WG meeting durations in minutes (since L2VPN was > 2 hours 10 mins - and I didn't have the time to type a recurring decimal). > Couldn't find ROLL on the Vancouver Agenda though - so I used their London > duration. Of course then the RFCs per minute were all rather low. In > honour of the recent World Cup I went for RFCs per football match (counting > only the players and the playing minutes - no allowance for referees, > half-time, injury time or extra time). >> >> the results show PWE3 a mile ahead of the rest, followed by BFD, then > MPLS, then a cluster of WGs with very similar productivity (L2VPN leading > those by a nose, but who am I to brag?) with L3VPN and then PCE (possibly > the victim of the recent SDN hype) bringing up the rear. >> >> like I say, does this really mean anything? Can I have the last half > hour of my life (or rather 1/66 of a football match) back? >> >> Giles >> >> >> >> >> On 23 Jul 2014, at 03:55, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> >>> Loa, >>> >>> I added one more column, to total all of the RFCs over the period. mpls > came in first in terms of total RFCs per capita, and pwe3 came in second. I > also agree with your conclusions. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Andy >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Loa Andersson wrote: >>> Folks, >>> >>> I took a look at the performance on rtg wg's. >>> >>> The spread sheet list the number of RFC's per working group between >>> two meeting. I've used the number of people who signed the blue >>> sheets in Vancouver as some type of average except for roll that did >>> not meet in Vancouver, where I used the London figure instead. >>> >>> Calculated the number of RFCs per person in the room. >>> >>> The highest figure has BFD 0.12 RFCs prior to the IETF84 meeting. >>> The highest absolute number of RFC is MPLS (this meeting). >>> The best trend has MPLS. >>> >>> Since I don't care too much about how much noise the >>> non-participating participants is exposed too, I don't think the a >>> re-org is motivated by the figures in the spread sheet. >>> >>> I guess I would go as far as too say that no arguments presented so >>> far motivates a re-org of the RTG area. >>> >>> Though I'm totally supportive of some well considered >>> re-organization of working groups, but >>> >>> - do it carefully >>> - at a time when it is optimal for the working groups >>> - involve the chairs to drive the re-org >>> - don't break things that work >>> >>> /Loa >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com >>> Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu >>> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 >>> >>> >> > > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Wed Jul 23 06:59:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 078B31AC0D1; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:59:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id huovxACoxv6n; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emea01-am1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am1lp0010.outbound.protection.outlook.com [213.199.154.10]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53D311A0B0B; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 06:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.242.110.144) by AM3PR03MB609.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.242.109.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.990.7; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 13:59:20 +0000 Received: from AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.110.144]) by AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.242.110.144]) with mapi id 15.00.0990.007; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 13:59:20 +0000 From: Alexander Vainshtein To: Loa Andersson Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad Thread-Index: AQHPpf80czvDOyGBQEukadUvLR5gxJutSuGAgAB/voD//7KzgIAAAgqAgAAF68OAAABHcIAAIx0AgAAEyiA= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 13:59:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> <011801cfa664$a9573980$fc05ac80$@ndzh.com>, <2AC27E6E-7994-47F6-B6AA-875E9FAB4047@cisco.com> <6CFF2DD2-D3A4-410E-8320-F0E9A789EE71@juniper.net> <036d1ff7201340c48135ac0a38b05684@AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <53CFB910.3030607@pi.nu> In-Reply-To: <53CFB910.3030607@pi.nu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.234.56.21] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID: x-forefront-prvs: 028166BF91 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(6009001)(377424004)(53754006)(252514010)(199002)(189002)(51704005)(24454002)(377454003)(36944003)(13464003)(43544003)(74316001)(19580405001)(99396002)(95666004)(50986999)(76176999)(83322001)(54356999)(80022001)(74502001)(74662001)(101416001)(106356001)(46102001)(105586002)(15975445006)(77982001)(110136001)(66066001)(33646002)(31966008)(19580395003)(64706001)(106116001)(86362001)(76576001)(92566001)(107046002)(76482001)(4396001)(87936001)(20776003)(81342001)(81542001)(83072002)(79102001)(2656002)(85306003)(93886003)(21056001)(85852003)(108616002)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:; SCL:1; SRVR:AM3PR03MB609; H:AM3PR03MB612.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ecitele.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/9JxiCfLqm6r4j0bjrV5FL4aTJkc Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "Giles Heron \(giheron\)" , "Andrew G. Malis" , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" , John Scudder , Susan Hares Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 13:59:27 -0000 Loa, Lots of thanks for a prompt and encouraging in a way) response. I have already said in my email that "I cannot point to any specific organi= zational or process change that would reduce the number of these cases". This seems to me pretty close what you have said in your email: these prob= lems should be handled by introducing some new elements in the process (int= ra-WG, inter-WG or both) rather than by re-shuffling the WGs. I wonder if we could collect some statistics related to quality of our docu= ments. E.g., number of validated technical errata? number of iterations of= the draft after the WG has requested its publication and until it has been= approved for publication? This seems to me more relevant than the number o= f people attending the WG F2F sessions (possibly because I have not been at= tending them for quite some time;-). My 2c, Sasha=20 Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com Mobile: 054-9266302 > -----Original Message----- > From: Loa Andersson [mailto:loa@pi.nu] > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 4:31 PM > To: Alexander Vainshtein; John Scudder; Giles Heron (giheron) > Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; rtg-chairs@ietf.org; Andrew G. Malis; Susan Hares > Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad >=20 > Sasha, >=20 > I agree that what you list are example of "bad things"! >=20 > However, I don't see how it is related to a re-org of the area (which I a= lso > think is a bad idea) or of wg groups (which at times might be a very good > idea). >=20 > This I think is more related to another (good) initiative taken by the AD= 's - the > working chair training; it also could be related to initiatives taken by = some wg > chairs, the wg review teams! >=20 > It might be of interest that what is now RFC 6790 (which is the RFC I thi= nk you > mean) was accepted as a wg doc before the MPLS-RT were looking at all > MPLS drafts. >=20 > /Loa >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 2014-07-23 14:51, Alexander Vainshtein wrote: > > Hi all, > > One example of "what is bad" is the cases when drafts reach advanced > stage (or even are published as RFCs) with serious technical problems/gap= s. > > > > E.g., I have just now submitted an Errata to RFC 7257 "Virtual Private = LAN > Service (VPLS) Management Information Base" reporting what I see as a > serious technical gap in an RFC that has been published earlier this mont= h. > > > > Another example is, IMO, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mp= ls- > deprecate-bgp-entropy-label: in this case the authors have discovered a > serious bug in an already published RFC 6970 that requires deprecation of > one of its elements. > > > > While these case may be relatively rare, the definitely fall under the > general category of "what is bad" IMO. > > > > I cannot point to any specific organizational or process change that wo= uld > reduce the number of these cases. But at least it makes sense to me to > consider them as valid use cases for estimating such changes. > > > > My 2c, > > Sasha > > Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com > > Mobile: 054-9266302 > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: rtg-dir [mailto:rtg-dir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John > >> Scudder > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 2:24 PM > >> To: Giles Heron (giheron) > >> Cc: rtg-dir@ietf.org; rtg-chairs@ietf.org; Andrew G. Malis; Susan > >> Hares; Loa Andersson > >> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad > >> > >> On Jul 23, 2014, at 7:12 AM, "Giles Heron (giheron)" > >> > >> wrote: > >>> I think my point was rather that I'm not sure metrics are what we > >>> should be > >> concentrating on in this debate. Numbers can be made to say just > >> about anything, after all ;) > >> > >> That was more-or-less the point I had been waiting to make when we > >> ran out of time yesterday. That, plus, bad (or the wrong) metrics are > >> worse than no metrics, so take care. > >> > >> --John >=20 > -- >=20 >=20 > Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com > Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu > Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Wed Jul 23 07:26:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9343C1B280E; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:26:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5MiJbWhlj7lh; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDAF81B27CA; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 384ABC1FA; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:26:30 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: "Giles Heron (giheron)" Message-ID: <20140723142630.GC4653@pfrc> References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/VKz4vjPIdFzTt_NJ-d5gaZaOGxA Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" , "Andrew G. Malis" , Loa Andersson Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 14:26:32 -0000 On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 10:32:27AM +0000, Giles Heron (giheron) wrote: > the results show PWE3 a mile ahead of the rest, followed by BFD, then > MPLS, then a cluster of WGs with very similar productivity (L2VPN leading > those by a nose, but who am I to brag?) with L3VPN and then PCE (possibly > the victim of the recent SDN hype) bringing up the rear. PWE3 beat BFD? Wow... we'll have to step up productivity in BFD then. :-) To some extent, this was the source of my strong disapproval of the functional merge. For BFD, what we have seems to be working. We didn't meet for a while because it was unnecessary. When we did, drafts moved along very quickly. I agree we should address the functional grouping issues. The solution space is what I question. -- Jeff From nobody Wed Jul 23 07:38:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893E41B2A68; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:38:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xr8nuPy5BHOw; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E07021B2AAD; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.57.142] (unknown [206.47.221.210]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3772318013DA; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 16:37:26 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <53CFC8AF.8060508@pi.nu> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 16:37:35 +0200 From: Loa Andersson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeffrey Haas References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> <20140723142630.GC4653@pfrc> In-Reply-To: <20140723142630.GC4653@pfrc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/VNjs9ic5qMdftpbbmxxJ9dubVZA Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 14:38:54 -0000 Jeff, On 2014-07-23 16:26, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > For BFD, what we have seems to be working. I think this is key - what we have for BFD is working! Further, BFD is not generating any particular problems for other working group. Conclusions: Don't touch BFD. /Loa -- Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Wed Jul 23 07:48:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB69B1B27D1; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:48:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zrvCg1DPQT6O; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 222F71B27CA; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D1766C1FA; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:48:06 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Loa Andersson Message-ID: <20140723144806.GF4653@pfrc> References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> <20140723142630.GC4653@pfrc> <53CFC8AF.8060508@pi.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <53CFC8AF.8060508@pi.nu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/SIRBlo1DackzUml3PMdkqDTXgbc Cc: Jeffrey Haas , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 14:48:07 -0000 On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 04:37:35PM +0200, Loa Andersson wrote: > On 2014-07-23 16:26, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > > For BFD, what we have seems to be working. > > I think this is key - what we have for BFD is working! > > Further, BFD is not generating any particular problems for > other working group. > > Conclusions: Don't touch BFD. That said, let's find a way to coordinate OAM across groups, including BFD. In my discussions with Alia, I'm fond of the idea of "meta" WGs. Individual work functions that implement IETF process (drafts, chairs, etc.) should be partially apportioned based on not overloading any given function or individual. This was part of my comment about such a merger likely involving adding a third chair. But as Brooks' book tells us, adding more people simply may make late work later - simply due to the need for increased communication in the project. What we definitely could use is a meeting of the meta-group, even if only on a chairs basis, regularly. As long as we're talking amongst each other, we have IETF leadership level communication. The question of whether we need IETF participant communication broadened can be serviced by targeted presentation of related work in an appropriate place. That could happen either in existing WG context (preserve WG work pipelining) or do more open meeting. Frankly, the Monday night dinner we had with several of our key BFD members which also included significant conversation about relationships to non-BFD OAM (e.g. CFM) was what we really need. -- Jeff From nobody Wed Jul 23 07:51:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtg-dir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489BD1B29CE for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:51:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h2gvG1jkzDv2 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f170.google.com (mail-vc0-f170.google.com [209.85.220.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EBE81B2A0F for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f170.google.com with SMTP id lf12so2337408vcb.29 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:51:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=fNkZ+izx5jRQ9NMlsurVEyBRmlOZCIogjqoAEG7elDA=; b=AXsJwU9LVIFB1EhfT4dSGUgQZRoxRseTmUdtdJZsWWZs9rKJmoc7isC1OiaTc9dXSs BZiSHEMeYhLyDXgTzE2/PTWgTksGCf1DdzcdkxS14XkXTSz0cIQhR2KqTA5IS+kvpahi smOCsjBlP4a0JLgTQWq0RKaqcat26Ow4haeSDDM0kpFxiru0kAXr1EsIsPlkFtt45eWi 2gARrr3VxhxQ/3CbfYogEkeLS0L50V/QVyIsj24xnv48fZK5KhN7KysuEe0on8BhEiFb porP6kvihgguOiuJIYioSQb5w/pkK2DVknK2EVaIVshJhqZGqrF0m9zHnywJ+4q0PZlE uokw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlOFPz47gECkAnVei5XdFSHI1DW+FwcMmsSHOBdDOdfYl61+S60BqqPMolx2CcSCNaSEBO5 X-Received: by 10.220.122.132 with SMTP id l4mr2722322vcr.41.1406127068660; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:51:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.236.199 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:50:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53CFBF9D.9030300@pi.nu> References: <036f01cf8fe8$d8c5cca0$8a5165e0$@olddog.co.uk> <53CE7407.1080607@joelhalpern.com> <53CEEA79.8010300@pi.nu> <0C3E5979-32FE-4F5B-971E-81F3D93173A2@cisco.com> <011801cfa664$a9573980$fc05ac80$@ndzh.com> <2AC27E6E-7994-47F6-B6AA-875E9FAB4047@cisco.com> <005c01cfa67c$87b42780$971c7680$@ndzh.com> <53CFBF9D.9030300@pi.nu> From: Jamal Hadi Salim Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:50:48 -0400 Message-ID: To: Loa Andersson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-dir/L71VjglszzkmIUklTVqzgGYYgt4 Cc: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" , "Giles Heron \(giheron\)" , "Andrew G. Malis" , Susan Hares , "rtg-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad X-BeenThere: rtg-dir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Routing Area Directorate List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 14:51:19 -0000 Loa, Couple of things that will improve the stats. 1) a column of documents that are in "publication process" 2) Life cycles of the WG: Example ForCES new charter starts at IETF 87. IETF 86 and 85 were discussions on re-charter. I am not sure how one would go about quantifying that in a spread sheet. I am not sure i subscribe to the quantity=quality arguement. Sue, The metric on "demographics and number of authors on an RFC" is easy to hack (and has been taken advantage of before). Get all kinds of big name corps to endorse your doc etc. I think this got so bad that at some point it was concluded cant have more than 5 authors max. So not sure how such a metric is useful. http://www.arkko.com/tools/docstats.html has some really good stats that could also be utilized as you pointed out. How many people attend and consistency of attendance over time is important. But i dont think you should count the first 1-3 meetings which is high tourist season (as it is right now in SFC where i am sitting). I do think as a tourist i had a choice to be here and my presence counts because i could have been doing something else instead. And tourists do become tenants. cheers, jamal On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 9:58 AM, Loa Andersson wrote: > Sue, > > I don't think that Giles says that we should abandon traditional > statistics, merely that the "numbers" the way I used can be made to > show what you want them to show. And sure I agree to that. > > I further think that there are no way to actually > show what has been alleged about giant groups and long periods of > uninteresting presentations. It is simply not true. Though it is > possible to to make it seem true by repeating it often enough. > > I would be in favor of having some useful traditional statistics > available per working group if it can be achieved with a reasonable > amount of work. > > /Loa > > > On 2014-07-23 15:46, Susan Hares wrote: >> >> Giles: >> >> Ah... Do you have a proposal for what you consider valid, and reasons for >> abandoning the traditional statistics. >> >> Sue >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Giles Heron (giheron) [mailto:giheron@cisco.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 7:03 AM >> To: Susan Hares >> Cc: Andrew G. Malis; Loa Andersson; rtg-dir@ietf.org; rtg-chairs@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad >> >> Hi Sue, >> >> I think my point was rather that I'm not sure metrics are what we should >> be >> concentrating on in this debate. Numbers can be made to say just about >> anything, after all ;) >> >> Giles >> >> On 23 Jul 2014, at 11:55, Susan Hares wrote: >> >>> Giles: >>> >>> The performance that IETF has utilized for its ADs, IETF chairs, and WG >> >> groups for 20 years has been: >>> >>> >>> Quantitative: >>> 1) RFC published >>> 2) WG groups formed and completed >>> 3) Administrative effectiveness (AFI/SAFIs, early code adoption, >> >> ports assigned. ) >>> >>> 4) Number of authors and demographics on authors >>> 5) Statistics on the timing of RFCs and the timing of WG forming >>> 6) Statistics on attendance in WG/ IETF >>> >>> Please note, I do know of a statistically valid analysis of the >> >> correlation between #6 an #1. If you do, I would be interested. >>> >>> >>> Qualitatively >>> 1) Technologies described in RFCs get deployed. >>> 2) IETF is collaborative (at IESG, at WG), >>> 3) People want to come (from surveys) >>> >>> The "people" want to come falls into a qualitative experience that says >> >> "important to learn about the technology". >>> >>> >>> http://www.arkko.com/tools/docstats.html has document statistics. >>> >>> If you want to propose a new metric it can be useful going forward, but >> >> unless it is built on the data kept by the datatracker, we do not have the >> past trends to defend it. You could also use the mail list information, >> but we would need to use a long-running group to get a valid statistics. >>> >>> >>> Sue >>> From: Giles Heron (giheron) [mailto:giheron@cisco.com] >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 6:32 AM >>> To: Andrew G. Malis >>> Cc: Loa Andersson; rtg-dir@ietf.org; rtg-chairs@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] what is so bad >>> >>> I'm not sure that how helpful the exercise is? Is performance really >> >> related to how many people show up? There's no way after all to determine >> what fraction of attendees are active participants vs "IETF tourists". >> And >> of course we're supposed to do more work outside meetings than in them. >>> >>> >>> At any rate to be meaningful at all we need to weight the results by >> >> length of WG meeting as time is the constraint we're trying to optimise >> for >> here (I think!). I counted WG meeting durations in minutes (since L2VPN >> was >> 2 hours 10 mins - and I didn't have the time to type a recurring decimal). >> Couldn't find ROLL on the Vancouver Agenda though - so I used their London >> duration. Of course then the RFCs per minute were all rather low. In >> honour of the recent World Cup I went for RFCs per football match >> (counting >> only the players and the playing minutes - no allowance for referees, >> half-time, injury time or extra time). >>> >>> >>> the results show PWE3 a mile ahead of the rest, followed by BFD, then >> >> MPLS, then a cluster of WGs with very similar productivity (L2VPN leading >> those by a nose, but who am I to brag?) with L3VPN and then PCE (possibly >> the victim of the recent SDN hype) bringing up the rear. >>> >>> >>> like I say, does this really mean anything? Can I have the last half >> >> hour of my life (or rather 1/66 of a football match) back? >>> >>> >>> Giles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 23 Jul 2014, at 03:55, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >>> >>>> Loa, >>>> >>>> I added one more column, to total all of the RFCs over the period. mpls >> >> came in first in terms of total RFCs per capita, and pwe3 came in second. >> I >> also agree with your conclusions. >>>> >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Loa Andersson wrote: >>>> Folks, >>>> >>>> I took a look at the performance on rtg wg's. >>>> >>>> The spread sheet list the number of RFC's per working group between >>>> two meeting. I've used the number of people who signed the blue >>>> sheets in Vancouver as some type of average except for roll that did >>>> not meet in Vancouver, where I used the London figure instead. >>>> >>>> Calculated the number of RFCs per person in the room. >>>> >>>> The highest figure has BFD 0.12 RFCs prior to the IETF84 meeting. >>>> The highest absolute number of RFC is MPLS (this meeting). >>>> The best trend has MPLS. >>>> >>>> Since I don't care too much about how much noise the >>>> non-participating participants is exposed too, I don't think the a >>>> re-org is motivated by the figures in the spread sheet. >>>> >>>> I guess I would go as far as too say that no arguments presented so >>>> far motivates a re-org of the RTG area. >>>> >>>> Though I'm totally supportive of some well considered >>>> re-organization of working groups, but >>>> >>>> - do it carefully >>>> - at a time when it is optimal for the working groups >>>> - involve the chairs to drive the re-org >>>> - don't break things that work >>>> >>>> /Loa >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> Loa Andersson email: loa@mail01.huawei.com >>>> Senior MPLS Expert loa@pi.nu >>>> Huawei Technologies (consultant) phone: +46 739 81 21