From nobody Fri Jan 4 02:18:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4584130FDF for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 02:18:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.69 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.69 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_ABOUTYOU=0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_HTML_ATTACH=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NXp1EA8dLB3N for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 02:18:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.unige.it (vm-smtp3.ker.csita.unige.it [130.251.222.104]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C0E130FD7 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 02:18:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.251.61.155] (firewall.disi.unige.it [130.251.61.251]) by smtp.unige.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 87E078532 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2019 11:18:12 +0100 (CET) From: Gianna Reggio Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4201CBFB-59DE-4DB9-A730-FFB4A112FDB6" Message-Id: Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 11:18:11 +0100 To: t2trg@irtf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: [T2TRG] Software Engineering for the IoT: PARTICIPATE IN A SURVEY X-BeenThere: t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2019 10:18:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4201CBFB-59DE-4DB9-A730-FFB4A112FDB6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear Colleague, Friend, as Software Engineering researchers, we are investigating ways to = improve the development of Internet of Things (IoT) systems, and we would like to understand what Industries (you!) do and need. This is your chance to influence the research on Software Engineering = for the IoT! Consequently, we would appreciate very much if you could fill in our = online questionnaire (around 15 minutes) at the following link: http://bit.ly/2IHoTwca1 The questionnaire also includes some questions about you, your company, = the definition of the IoT, and allows you to remain fully anonymous. We will be happy if you can please forward this survey to other people = as well to help us in this investigation. Please feel free to contact us if you = need any further information. Thank you very much for your valuable contribution! Kind regards, Gianna Reggio, Maurizio Leotta and Romina Spalazzese DIBRIS - Universit=C3=83 di Genova DVMT - Malm=C3=83=C2=B6 University Italy Sweden ----- Fine messaggio inoltrato ----- ----- Fine messaggio inoltrato ----- ----- Fine messaggio inoltrato ----- --Apple-Mail=_4201CBFB-59DE-4DB9-A730-FFB4A112FDB6 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=unnamed.html Content-Type: text/html; x-mac-hide-extension=yes; name="unnamed.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Colleague, Friend,

as Software Engineering researchers, we are = investigating ways to improve the development of Internet of Things = (IoT) systems, and we would like to understand what Industries (you!) do = and need.
This is your chance to influence the research on = Software Engineering for the IoT!

Consequently, we would appreciate very much if you = could fill in our online questionnaire (around 15 minutes) at the = following link:


The questionnaire also includes some questions = about you, your company, the definition of the IoT, and allows you to = remain fully anonymous.

We will be happy if you can please forward this = survey to other people as well to help us in this investigation. Please = feel free to contact us if you need any further = information.

Thank you = very much for your valuable contribution!

     Kind = regards,

=             &n= bsp;Gianna Reggio, Maurizio Leotta =             &n= bsp;           and = Romina Spalazzese
=             &n= bsp; DIBRIS - Universit=C3=A0 di Genova =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;            =         DVMT - Malm=C3=B6 = University
=             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;  Italy =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;            =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;        Sweden

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rgout03.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk (9.0.019.26-1) (authenticated as wjgo_10009@btinternet.com) id 5BB6CF650823E60C; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 10:00:03 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=btcpcloud; t=1546855206; bh=fV8H+a+QqhfbLqzuk2tqDaPPoMeI1m122nCNjmkALfo=; h=To:Cc:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:MIME-Version:From:Date; b=MuJg6YD+A8EgGLN74hHX/e2K8VMVZc2utcC6+gWl0uVtS54zsPI6mL8xXxKLA1b0S8zmRxeIMjX3oXvXJ9+BdkqwD9GnUBUoM9lGtSDkhgIeyEiEnepGP+5tnnGD3VFIv0iCyIkOw5+X5WkaQjwHatJyPwtRhg0dWwlB70vFIc0= Received: from [86.184.240.135] by ux.btmail.bt.com with HTTP; Mon, 7 Jan 2019 10:00:02 +0000 To: =?UTF-8?Q?Ari_Ker=C3=A4nen?= Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Christian_Ams=C3=BCss?= , "T2TRG@irtf.org" Message-ID: <4cef1d94.6264.16827c14057.Webtop.70@btinternet.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20181011154235.GA24510@hephaistos.amsuess.com> <638edb67.f64.167dfc51747.Webtop.70@btinternet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=no Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: OWM Mail 3 X-SID: 70 X-Originating-IP: [86.184.240.135] From: "wjgo_10009@btinternet.com" Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 10:00:02 +0000 (GMT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [T2TRG] Semantic extractor languages X-BeenThere: t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 10:00:11 -0000 AK > I think localizable sentences would be out of scope for this since=20 it probably makes sense to focus on IoT-related formats that are already=20 widely in use and/or actively developed in relevant SDOs. What does SDO mean in the above please? I have tried to find out. https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/SDO But why out of scope please? It seems that your opinion is based not upon whether it would work nor=20 whether it would be useful in The Internet of Things but upon the fact=20 that it is not already in use nor being actively developed in relevant=20 SDOs. That seems to be deeming it to be out of scope because it is a new idea=20 not already implemented. Now I am retired and just at home with a laptop=20 computer and some budget software and a small personal webspace hosted=20 by a United Kingdom Internet Service Provider. So I do what I can but I=20 am restricted in what I can do myself. It seems to me that if the idea could be of benefit then it should be=20 given fair consideration on its merits and maybe some way of progressing=20 could be found, such as, for just one example, a group project for some=20 students somewhere to have a go at developing it. Yet your previous post had the following. >> I think we should not restrict ourselves to URI-addressable things=20 >> only since some of the interesting ones seem to be lacking URI format=20 >> today. But looking into defining new URI formats and media types when=20 >> needed sounds like a good idea. As I wrote before, I am new to this field. If my ideas are found to be=20 out of scope when a scientific assessment of what they would do in the=20 The Internet of Things is made then so be it. William Overington Monday 7 January 2019 ------ Original Message ------ From: "Ari Ker=C3=A4nen" To: "William_J_G Overington" Cc: "Christian Ams=C3=BCss" ; "T2TRG@irtf.org"=20 Sent: Monday, 2019 Jan 7 At 09:26 Subject: Re: [T2TRG] Semantic extractor languages Hi William, > On 24 Dec 2018, at 12.31, wjgo_10009@btinternet.com wrote: > > Hi > >> I think we should not restrict ourselves to URI-addressable things=20 >> only > since some of the interesting ones seem to be lacking URI format=20 > today. > > I am fairly new to this and so I seek your advice please. > > During the summer I made some posts, in particular there is the thread=20 > as follows. > > Localizable sentences for thing to thing communication > > There are seven posts in that thread, six of them from me. > > Could you possibly consider whether it is relevant to include my idea=20 > of localizable sentences (possibly embedded within a JSON file) in=20 > your list please? I think localizable sentences would be out of scope for this since it=20 probably makes sense to focus on IoT-related formats that are already=20 widely in use and/or actively developed in relevant SDOs. Cheers, Ari > The following post perhaps gives the best idea, > >=20 > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/t2trg/MxFYh3WwccNvKOE0sNR3cyY5Vw4 > > with a correction in the following post. > >=20 > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/t2trg/nKhC4fvWoz6NtmbZ7LJIXCa9RRw > > Best regards, > > William Overington > > Monday 24 December 2018 > > > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Ari Ker=C3=A4nen" > To: "Christian Ams=C3=BCss" ; "T2TRG@irtf.org"=20 > > Sent: Saturday, 2018 Dec 22 At 17:01 > Subject: Re: [T2TRG] Semantic extractor languages > > Hi Christian, > > On 11/10/2018 18.43, Christian Ams=C3=BCss wrote: >> Hello WISHI participants, >> >> Follow-up question on the topic of extractors that we discussed as=20 >> the >> first item in today's meeting: >> >> Could we collect some of candidate target lanuages? AFAIR mentioned=20 >> plus >> what comes to my mind: >> >> * modbus >> * JSON data from Alexa >> * HTML? >> * OCF data >> * CoRE-interfaces batches for devices that don't understand them >> * Extracting data from CoRAL for devices that don't understand it > > Collecting these makes lots of sense. Thank you for starting with=20 > this! > > Bluetooth could be added to the list and Michael mentioned about=20 > ZigBee > too. Also I think OPC UA (binary) is interesting, although there we > could perhaps get away easier by using/translating to the (standard) > XML/JSON formats. > > I wonder if there's also interest e.g., in the BACnet community to try > our this approach? > > But overall, if we take a few examples of JSON/XML formats and a few > binary formats, we should be able to get some good insights already. > >> Just to get some idea of the problem space we want to address. >> >> As modbus is, as I understand it, typically not something that comes >> around when dreferencing a URI, do we expect accessing things that=20 >> are >> not URI addressable (yet)? > > I think we should not restrict ourselves to URI-addressable things=20 > only > since some of the interesting ones seem to be lacking URI format=20 > today. > But looking into defining new URI formats and media types when needed > sounds like a good idea. > > > Cheers, > Ari > > _______________________________________________ > T2TRG mailing list > 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Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2019 14:05:44 -0000 Hi all, The next WISHI call is on Thursday 17th of January, 7:00-8:30 PST=A0(16:00-= 17:30 CET). Latest draft agenda and WebEx details are available at the WISHI agenda pag= e:=20 https://github.com/t2trg/wishi/wiki/Agenda-items We will have update on the latest development in iot.schema.org from Michae= l Koster and plan to discuss how we could gather best practices for data mo= del re-usability. IETF 104 is also approaching and we should start planning= what kind of WISHI activities we want to organize there. If you have requests for additional agenda items, please let me know. Thanks, Ari= From nobody Mon Jan 14 00:49:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDB2130F9A for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2019 00:49:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.041 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.041 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.142, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U0fN9jPCbLVf for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2019 00:49:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com (mail-wr1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E56AE130F4F for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2019 00:49:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id q18so21788020wrx.9 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2019 00:49:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ackl-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EqDgWi687Wt+PD9PClAgQ2QoHiSe6fAGKD+t04WiBMg=; b=IVQCDobnTYO8x3Kp6GokE6UVlewctEZSQsR16EBir40LceUmh9Pyh13XEFpRI4UMer YT6tFfLMMTuZnBtAa7wktJJFz/0er0rk/gv4aLJsuuaiPKrEL2Em2BnnHtK4qgbp8cf7 L+3FgF6FGW4H1kmBDqNqw8haEK8YNkeIBp6XT+850u+kaRP4N0CpgZ6w0c15E1/YslP5 /o8yO57efQA+BthNo3KMKfL8qDFZUtm80OFRBD2kDALQ8CJ5akCqC6PZfg9hH25YK0Y3 In/Fn/dfoBXBz/MOctGcVLBNWQ9set22QsVsWkFKepZSEl9Wlnkok3CPfIsSs0ZSTmSz boqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EqDgWi687Wt+PD9PClAgQ2QoHiSe6fAGKD+t04WiBMg=; b=Q7b9w5xyHeGqYHfXTYMtLiJN/PBO2krPP0fG5hDRCtRCCQOr0FJCydKoyfpZGmIHJn YZtZvlRf+MF1+tkYH63nwE5MGUFp54c8Efo/Sa9ubZYGO5P10+dCVTBOWpNCPvFrOmH3 a1jZpP3Cd+A4n8CSEtf1109//5YmHzBb2KF1Apa1SIEqeNa5otvsKFfR1gQWYAtt0FWj yiw1Fq84wLx2GwDZ2+KdIzWGt0A3/xM9Ygv8u9DsUO9kgsnzjCzdLoIpBkCxh3ottNPj qrRltpAUuEq7+xNhfH8FU75Yr3VtsrympSQ5lYr4vmwZOUAhzwBEXS4Ql3Ri4w0jL0sd QIGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukfUpC0vYfvlSM4reyk2iaRvECidYzcxnjbXaQn35whZrk5H+syZ mHVOyaHwwV0UB5h23EnGV5aAvuvbtaqUrFHD91i8BE0g X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7KZAPdoK8dWAUgsP4ZkY6baEHnTbd7wcpzuylkgGg1fCAIGxJVTpy8MJhnHl3mRb+Oyh95DHP1ikJJoER/KUs= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:42ce:: with SMTP id t14mr23673546wrr.51.1547455781130; Mon, 14 Jan 2019 00:49:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181011154235.GA24510@hephaistos.amsuess.com> In-Reply-To: From: ivaylo petrov Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 09:49:15 +0100 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?QXJpIEtlcsOkbmVu?= Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Christian_Ams=C3=BCss?= , "T2TRG@irtf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000023ed91057f6720e3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [T2TRG] Semantic extractor languages X-BeenThere: t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 08:49:46 -0000 --00000000000023ed91057f6720e3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, In Acklio we are working on extractors and encoders that can transform binary data to/from JSON-LD. They are based on the YANG modeling language. We have been discussing having a small test system where people will be able to test the language and provide feedback. I will let you know as soon as we have something more concrete (a running test system for example). Cheers, -- Ivaylo Petrov Chief Architect ivaylo at ackl.io www.ackl.io 1137A avenue des Champs Blancs, 35510 Cesson S=C3=A9vign=C3=A9 FRANCE Phone: +33 (0)2 22 06 05 77 IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you! On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 6:01 PM Ari Ker=C3=A4nen wrote: > Hi Christian, > > On 11/10/2018 18.43, Christian Ams=C3=BCss wrote: > > Hello WISHI participants, > > > > Follow-up question on the topic of extractors that we discussed as the > > first item in today's meeting: > > > > Could we collect some of candidate target lanuages? AFAIR mentioned plu= s > > what comes to my mind: > > > > * modbus > > * JSON data from Alexa > > * HTML? > > * OCF data > > * CoRE-interfaces batches for devices that don't understand them > > * Extracting data from CoRAL for devices that don't understand it > > Collecting these makes lots of sense. Thank you for starting with this! > > Bluetooth could be added to the list and Michael mentioned about ZigBee > too. Also I think OPC UA (binary) is interesting, although there we > could perhaps get away easier by using/translating to the (standard) > XML/JSON formats. > > I wonder if there's also interest e.g., in the BACnet community to try > our this approach? > > But overall, if we take a few examples of JSON/XML formats and a few > binary formats, we should be able to get some good insights already. > > > Just to get some idea of the problem space we want to address. > > > > As modbus is, as I understand it, typically not something that comes > > around when dreferencing a URI, do we expect accessing things that are > > not URI addressable (yet)? > > I think we should not restrict ourselves to URI-addressable things only > since some of the interesting ones seem to be lacking URI format today. > But looking into defining new URI formats and media types when needed > sounds like a good idea. > > > Cheers, > Ari > > _______________________________________________ > T2TRG mailing list > T2TRG@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/t2trg > --00000000000023ed91057f6720e3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,

In Acklio we are working on extractors and encoders that can tra= nsform binary data to/from JSON-LD. They are based on the YANG modeling lan= guage. We have been discussing having a small test system where people will= be able to test the language and provide feedback. I will let you know as = soon as we have something more concrete (a running test system for example)= .

Cheers,
--
Ivaylo Petrov
Chief Architect
ivaylo at=C2=A0ackl.io




1137A avenue des C= hamps Blancs,
35510 Cesson S=C3=A9vign= =C3=A9
FRANCE

Phone: +33 (0)2 22 0= 6 05 77

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments= are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended r= ecipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the cont= ents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the info= rmation in any medium. Thank you!
<= /div>


On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 6:01 PM Ari Ker=C3=A4nen &l= t;ari.keranen= @ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi Christian,

On 11/10/2018 18.43, Christian Ams=C3=BCss wrote:
> Hello WISHI participants,
>
> Follow-up question on the topic of extractors that we discussed as the=
> first item in today's meeting:
>
> Could we collect some of candidate target lanuages? AFAIR mentioned pl= us
> what comes to my mind:
>
> * modbus
> * JSON data from Alexa
> * HTML?
> * OCF data
> * CoRE-interfaces batches for devices that don't understand them > * Extracting data from CoRAL for devices that don't understand it<= br>
Collecting these makes lots of sense. Thank you for starting with this!

Bluetooth could be added to the list and Michael mentioned about ZigBee too. Also I think OPC UA (binary) is interesting, although there we
could perhaps get away easier by using/translating to the (standard)
XML/JSON formats.

I wonder if there's also interest e.g., in the BACnet community to try =
our this approach?

But overall, if we take a few examples of JSON/XML formats and a few
binary formats, we should be able to get some good insights already.

> Just to get some idea of the problem space we want to address.
>
> As modbus is, as I understand it, typically not something that comes > around when dreferencing a URI, do we expect accessing things that are=
> not URI addressable (yet)?

I think we should not restrict ourselves to URI-addressable things only since some of the interesting ones seem to be lacking URI format today. But looking into defining new URI formats and media types when needed
sounds like a good idea.


Cheers,
Ari

_______________________________________________
T2TRG mailing list
T2TRG@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/t2trg
--00000000000023ed91057f6720e3-- From nobody Tue Jan 15 06:32:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF39612D4F0; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 06:32:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.535 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.535 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v3aGi9D6BXeS; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 06:32:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out1.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (mail-out1.in.tum.de [131.159.0.8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB022129C6A; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 06:32:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.in.tum.de (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by vmrbg98.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E78B4028A; Tue, 15 Jan 2019 15:32:00 +0100 (CET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 15:32:00 +0100 From: Aaron Yi DING To: icnrg@irtf.org, T2TRG@irtf.org Organization: TU Munich In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: X-Sender: aaron.ding@tum.de User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.3.3 Archived-At: Subject: [T2TRG] EdgeSys DL in 5 days X-BeenThere: t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 14:32:12 -0000 Hello, a kind reminder for EdgeSys DL on 20 January: https://edgesys19.cm.in.tum.de/submission.html The keynotes of 2019 will be from Amazon and Cambridge. Cheers, Aaron On 14.11.2018 17:11, Aaron Yi DING wrote: > Hello, > > One relevant call for ICNRG T2TRG colleagues, from EdgeSys 2019 > (Dresden, Germany) From nobody Mon Jan 21 00:26:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: t2trg@irtf.org Delivered-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35604130F2D; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 00:26:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: cabo@tzi.org, t2trg@irtf.org, irtf-chair@irtf.org, t2trg-chairs@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154805920718.8173.16944945623907300348.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 00:26:47 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [T2TRG] t2trg - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 104 X-BeenThere: t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 08:26:47 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Carsten Bormann, a Chair of the t2trg working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Thing-to-Thing Area Name: IRTF Session Requester: Carsten Bormann Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 90 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: cbor core cose ace ice suit rats Second Priority: saag irtfopen 6tisch sacm artarea teep secdispatch dinrg httpbis Third Priority: dnssd detnet quic v6ops opsarea cfrg icnrg intarea i2nsf netconf netmod emu People who must be present: Carsten Bormann Ari Keranen Resources Requested: Flipcharts: please specify number in Special Requests field Special Requests: Please also avoid any potentially IoT related BOFs and PRGs that might come up (in particular: rats, coin) Four flipcharts would help. --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Jan 21 08:21:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6287C130FB7 for ; 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charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, We are planning for a 2-hour summary meeting session at the IETF 104. If you= would like to present in this session, please let us chairs (t2trg-chairs@i= etf.org) know as soon as possible. In your e-mail please mention the topic a= nd how long time slot you would preferably want to have. If this is a new to= pic, please add some background information / pointers (e.g., to an Internet= Draft). Also we will have a WISHI hackathon session at the IETF hackathon. Please re= gister for the IETF hackathon (https://www.ietf.org/registration/ietf104/hac= kathonregistration.py) and mention "WISHI" as one of the "technologies to fo= cus on" when registering. This allows us to plan for the logistics. If you f= orgot to mention WISHI in the registration, you can also drop us a note over= e-mail. Note that you can register for the hackathon independent of any reg= istration for the IETF 104 itself. Remote participation is also possible. Thanks, Ari= --Apple-Mail-89BA36E8-C216-4934-9E9D-05E746733840 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCDMAw ggX2MIID3qADAgECAhA3E3FzLlznzicd63Rv9v4YMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMEcxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlNFMREwDwYDVQQKDAhFcmljc3NvbjElMCMGA1UEAwwcRXJpY3Nzb24gTkwgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBD QSB2MzAeFw0xNzEyMDQxNDEzNDRaFw0yMDEyMDQxNDEzNDNaMGUxETAPBgNVBAoMCEVyaWNzc29u MRUwEwYDVQQDDAxBcmkgS2Vyw6RuZW4xJzAlBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWGGFyaS5rZXJhbmVuQGVyaWNz c29uLmNvbTEQMA4GA1UEBRMHZWFyaWtlcjCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEB AIUlV66I5z1/qGYdhiIGfyvv8aaZexDetFCPlauUh5ugtp7Pf7ynpPRIK1FeWaoKs+IJ3E9R/9wT APFzjzjXpjyHHoBUdp8ZBuL/kt60cUTHTD4AScJGUHEgy70/Uf2YEj3JJjrTBbFnqDcXWTFF1n2Y edmhZDBdzZQJ18tlIjJmxgAJB1clI0nEg1gBnhl8mVdQp+ar6GjvxXfRuA1+uOpxa3y4zUpzF+ha LmaC4a5AbOsROtr7Uad8/pCzulAvAmPXvEJ/3JusafQfiqxNv1J/fT6W7sS8dBjF6vv3LgeAnYj5 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Rg22NfqccA+iLC9kUlAb1I1qoX1F6+tthsi051N7tALmLpF5tZT6eVgAfdQkMSkE8vgedPNEuqotBGmDg3xb3wkWa5dzb9MbtYQsihkBKRpHhextMdYZellQ8yg2mihm4kLAc8bPcOc5Hc+R2D+eiMbQE/v7dYk7AWaKJ/c7i8/qmYSLCVUL+ackhxgYCOHcxdQuvIJ/lfU4IPoBLICm8BJ6m8HXjkLIFjaM3DUTLJzhMn+mhYJSMl5EWDcKPipsEjiTqPNtiGCjHMTgFx4UHTrrvSSJCEtowhK11UoLQCpZAYOMkMGN6uHZMuiOONYMROp0rENX2GezcG2sDSw+JZri3TxQ7s6HNb8FwCqwI83u0Wh3Kh2LMO1aJbAUHxu9ZqQYQEIJCexQwG5EliHn8+lM/F7fJCnd6MYMqJ93fa0= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 185302ca-bf50-4ab2-69dc-08d67fdc9b5b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Jan 2019 20:11:19.4224 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR21MB0184 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [T2TRG] draft-hartke-t2trg-ciri-00 review X-BeenThere: t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 20:11:24 -0000 FYI, the IRI WG intended to update RFC 3987 and shut down because it could = not reach consensus on IRIs. In particular, RFC 3987 does not match what major imple= mentations (i.e. browsers) actually do, and so there's a major incompatibility between= current practice and what RFC 3987 does. There does exist at least one RFC 3987 implementat= ion out there in Windows WinRT APIs though, but I don't know if there's others. In prac= tice, the recommendation from the internationalization community in the IETF tends to= be to not use IRIs. That is, protocols should only ever put URIs (not IRIs) on the = wire, and conversion from internationalized strings to/from URIs is done at the UI layer. With that in mind, the case for using IRIs (as opposed to URIs) in Constrai= ned Restful Environments seems to not have much real-world applicability since it goes = against the internationalization guidance. It's fine for a research project, which T2TRG is allowed to do, but may not= be very useful in practice, from what I've seen. Dave P.S.: An example of one incompatibility between RFC 3987 and what is widely= implemented in browsers, is how percent encoding is interpreted. In RFC 3987 it's perc= ent-encoded UTF-8, whereas in implementations it's percent-encoded in whatever the charset is = of the document (or whatever) you got the IRI out of, which may or may not be UTF-8. Agai= n this is just one of many examples. -----Original Message----- From: T2TRG On Behalf Of Ari Ker=E4nen Sent: Monday, January 21, 2019 10:25 AM To: draft-hartke-t2trg-ciri@ietf.org Cc: T2TRG@irtf.org Subject: [T2TRG] draft-hartke-t2trg-ciri-00 review Hi, I reviewed the CIRI -00 draft. Overall it looked very good to me but here's= a few comments/questions. 2.1. Options host.ip Specifies the host of the IRI authority as an IPv4 address (4 bytes) or an IPv6 address (16 bytes). Do we need endianess considerations here? Or does CBOR take care of that? 2.2. Option Sequences A sequence of options is considered _well-formed_ if: Do we need the _emphasis_ here? Maybe in quotes since it's a defined=20 term? Unless we want to follow the CDDL convention -- which perhaps=20 makes sense. But then it's probably good to have a note along the lines=20 of "New terms are introduced in _cursive_." in the terminology section. o a "host.ip" option is followed by a "port" option; Why is the port option mandatory? No default ports allowed? 3. CBOR ciri =3D [?(scheme: 1, text), ?(host.name: 2, text // host.ip: 3, bytes .size 4 / bytes .size 16), ?(port: 4, uint .size 2), ?(path.type: 5, path-type), *(path: 6, text), *(query: 7, text), ?(fragment: 8, text)]> Isn't "text" too permissive type for most (all?) of the components? Cheers, Ari _______________________________________________ T2TRG mailing list T2TRG@irtf.org https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.irt= f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ft2trg&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft= .com%7C8840ed3d4dce47e1bc6208d67fcdd224%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%= 7C1%7C1%7C636836919304296169&sdata=3D7HFctjFUzx0n8M03K7bSeWeFFYJ5TRpxIN= cWq%2Byadks%3D&reserved=3D0 From nobody Mon Jan 21 12:31:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60519126BED; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 12:31:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W21oVN-ivUe0; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 12:31:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 698C3124408; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 12:31:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.200.7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x0LKVZ6k019478; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 21:31:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.116] (p54A6CC50.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.204.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 43k39f55Mqz1Br6; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 21:31:34 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 21:31:33 +0100 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Ari_Ker=C3=A4nen?= , "draft-hartke-t2trg-ciri@ietf.org" , "T2TRG@irtf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 569795492.247372-3a5cacd512cc2531a46bde78b944b981 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <58aa0ae4-b3fe-abf7-9bda-4908ef0b3fd7@ericsson.com> To: Dave Thaler X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [T2TRG] draft-hartke-t2trg-ciri-00 review X-BeenThere: t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 20:31:50 -0000 Hi Dave, I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need to carry all that baggage. E.g.: > P.S.: An example of one incompatibility between RFC 3987 and what is = widely implemented > in browsers, is how percent encoding is interpreted. In RFC 3987 it's = percent-encoded UTF-8, > whereas in implementations it's percent-encoded in whatever the = charset is of the document > (or whatever) you got the IRI out of, which may or may not be UTF-8. = Again this is just one > of many examples. =E2=80=9CThen don=E2=80=99t do that.=E2=80=9D For CORE, we already have = decided to inhabit a UTF-8-only world. We also may not need to use percent encoding at all for CIRIs. In summary, I=E2=80=99m not sure the experience the Internationalization = community has with IRIs carries very far in the simplified world created = by CORE and CIRIs. But I would sure be interested which problems IRIs created, in = particular those that were not with legacy encodings. Further pointers are very welcome. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Jan 21 12:36:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A46AA1277CC for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 12:36:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.554 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.554 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-4.553, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m7rIroD7rG8o for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 12:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM03-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr790134.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.79.134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16F581276D0 for ; 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Mon, 21 Jan 2019 12:38:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_FAIL=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i9u74Xrast9M for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 12:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8597::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82F19124408 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 12:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-f172.google.com ([209.85.160.172]); authenticated by wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1glgL0-0002rg-6i; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 21:38:30 +0100 Received: by mail-qt1-f172.google.com with SMTP id t33so24999515qtt.4 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 12:38:30 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukdsCGP5qbzWDBW9TzJmtrjm0jBA6ytHf6rxEJUI24krtkzOSV3/ MO1js8D/Je7hkrO7WItl4D3MoufAX+lPzTszfhQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4f34KutrFZibpoM8ICICfOPlBdHJLNOwTIwkJkwSYyagbv5BR1TZHkKcv3wRlzgaa1771ZaavtOHrdBqhZoPE= X-Received: by 2002:aed:35c5:: with SMTP id d5mr28125169qte.212.1548103109148; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 12:38:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <58aa0ae4-b3fe-abf7-9bda-4908ef0b3fd7@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: Klaus Hartke Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 21:37:53 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Dave Thaler Cc: =?UTF-8?B?QXJpIEtlcsOkbmVu?= , "draft-hartke-t2trg-ciri@ietf.org" , "T2TRG@irtf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; hartke@projectcool.de; 1548103113; 3175c1c4; X-HE-SMSGID: 1glgL0-0002rg-6i Archived-At: Subject: Re: [T2TRG] draft-hartke-t2trg-ciri-00 review X-BeenThere: t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 20:38:36 -0000 Hi Dave, thanks for bringing up this interesting point. The draft essentially describes a CBOR variant of the way CoAP serializes the Request URI: The URI is split into its components (+ the path component into its segments) and each component becomes one "option". In these options, no percent encoding is performed. So, as I see it, the following are all serializations of the same data: URI: coap://example.com:5683/city/Montr%C3%A9al IRI: coap://example.com:5683/city/Montr=C3=A9al CoAP: Uri-Host: "example.com" Uri-Port: 5683 Uri-Path: "city" Uri-Path: "Montr=C3=A9al" CIRI: [1, "coap", 2, "example.com", 4, 5683, 6, "city", 6, "Montr=C3=A9al" ] I don't think the problems of one serialization have much impact on the standardization of a new serialization. (What's the name of the data model of which URI, IRI, CoAP and CIRI are serializations?) Klaus On Mon, 21 Jan 2019 at 21:11, Dave Thaler wrote: > > FYI, the IRI WG intended to update RFC 3987 and shut down because it coul= d not reach > consensus on IRIs. In particular, RFC 3987 does not match what major imp= lementations > (i.e. browsers) actually do, and so there's a major incompatibility betwe= en current practice > and what RFC 3987 does. There does exist at least one RFC 3987 implement= ation out there > in Windows WinRT APIs though, but I don't know if there's others. In pr= actice, the > recommendation from the internationalization community in the IETF tends = to be to not > use IRIs. That is, protocols should only ever put URIs (not IRIs) on th= e wire, and conversion > from internationalized strings to/from URIs is done at the UI layer. > > With that in mind, the case for using IRIs (as opposed to URIs) in Constr= ained Restful > Environments seems to not have much real-world applicability since it goe= s against > the internationalization guidance. > > It's fine for a research project, which T2TRG is allowed to do, but may n= ot be very useful > in practice, from what I've seen. > > Dave > > P.S.: An example of one incompatibility between RFC 3987 and what is wide= ly implemented > in browsers, is how percent encoding is interpreted. In RFC 3987 it's pe= rcent-encoded UTF-8, > whereas in implementations it's percent-encoded in whatever the charset i= s of the document > (or whatever) you got the IRI out of, which may or may not be UTF-8. Ag= ain this is just one > of many examples. From nobody Mon Jan 21 13:59:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6635C129B88 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 13:59:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9MbKqttMhCkt for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 13:59:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de [80.237.133.151]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6DC6128CF2 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 13:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-f177.google.com ([209.85.160.177]); authenticated by wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1glhbQ-0002Wn-DO; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 22:59:32 +0100 Received: by mail-qt1-f177.google.com with SMTP id t13so25292985qtn.3 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 13:59:32 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukfPJms2siTz+y2RI9RTomPjEWM/9Ju9LjrtPXqGd3+5pjTS2IZ3 b/TwoQEEK5Ag3isaIW5HnSs7i7DI0nt1VlVEE5k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN6ugHOshwyQL6fcjRWAV1CrFybHd3pvVcDx3MpdexSy6koz5r9atpEQ2REjdfWPo8fb72duhlR6iV62b7Ma7cA= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:e091:: with SMTP id l17mr27028977qvk.144.1548107971216; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 13:59:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <58aa0ae4-b3fe-abf7-9bda-4908ef0b3fd7@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: Klaus Hartke Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 22:58:55 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Dave Thaler Cc: Carsten Bormann , "draft-hartke-t2trg-ciri@ietf.org" , =?UTF-8?B?QXJpIEtlcsOkbmVu?= , "T2TRG@irtf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; hartke@projectcool.de; 1548107975; c2d63c09; X-HE-SMSGID: 1glhbQ-0002Wn-DO Archived-At: Subject: Re: [T2TRG] draft-hartke-t2trg-ciri-00 review X-BeenThere: t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 21:59:38 -0000 Dave Thaler wrote: > Once you have COAP/HTTP proxies, you pull in all that baggage. Right. Currently, converting a CIRI to CoAP options is defined as: 1. Recompose the CBOR-encoded IRI components to an IRI 2. Convert the IRI to a URI according to RFC 3987 3. Decompose the URI to CoAP options according to RFC 7252 It sounds like a good idea to rewrite section 4.2 to output a URI and define the conversion as: 1. Recompose the CBOR-encoded IRI components to a URI 2. Decompose the URI to CoAP options according to RFC 7252 > Furthermore, the conventional wisdom is that there's no problem that > putting IRIs on the wire solves that isn't better solved by putting URIs > on the wire. The Semantic Web relies extensively on IRIs, and some formats like Turtle put IRIs "on the wire" rather than URIs. E.g.: @prefix loc: . loc:Montr=C3=A9al a loc:city . Would this be considered "UI layer"? If not, I'm not sure if URIs would improve things: loc:Montr%C3%A9al a loc:city . (Is that even valid?) Since the CoRAL textual format [1] uses IRIs in a similar way, some advice on IRIs in formats intended to be read and written by humans would be very welcome. Klaus [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hartke-t2trg-coral-06 From nobody Mon Jan 21 15:22:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A7212D4ED for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 15:22:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.554 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.554 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-4.553, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w61y_10vikC6 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2019 15:22:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from 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Tue, 22 Jan 2019 13:02:25 +0100 Received: by mail-qk1-f173.google.com with SMTP id m17so6602986qki.5 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 04:02:24 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukcaIIXQ8HOK/oCUP1pUI2Ck9AEUIKTObDvcH4fevhQABk05vjT5 cGFv4JcY4DFaTurt/b+7TdvubdHiXBjfN0LaogM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4dMv7PClINzvS8LQXP/lVkBEHN8QQHpn9ro4G8JtqeSWLwm377O03R6IKfZ3cp8eXt6hW2HAl5mw+dejDvOf0= X-Received: by 2002:a37:455:: with SMTP id 82mr27853247qke.60.1548158543895; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 04:02:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <58aa0ae4-b3fe-abf7-9bda-4908ef0b3fd7@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <58aa0ae4-b3fe-abf7-9bda-4908ef0b3fd7@ericsson.com> From: Klaus Hartke Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 13:01:47 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?QXJpIEtlcsOkbmVu?= Cc: "draft-hartke-t2trg-ciri@ietf.org" , "T2TRG@irtf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; hartke@projectcool.de; 1548158547; 39b63e43; X-HE-SMSGID: 1glul6-0008L7-Vi Archived-At: Subject: Re: [T2TRG] draft-hartke-t2trg-ciri-00 review X-BeenThere: t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 12:02:29 -0000 Hi Ari, thanks a lot for your review! Ari Ker=C3=A4nen wrote: > 2.1. Options > > host.ip > Specifies the host of the IRI authority as an IPv4 address > (4 bytes) or an IPv6 address (16 bytes). > > Do we need endianess considerations here? Or does CBOR take care of that? Is there any protocol or format that does not encode 192.0.2.42 as h'C000022A' or [2001:db8::42] as h'20010DB80000000000000000000042'? I always thought that IP addresses do not have an endianness. > 2.2. Option Sequences > > A sequence of options is considered _well-formed_ if: > > Do we need the _emphasis_ here? Maybe in quotes since it's a defined > term? Unless we want to follow the CDDL convention -- which perhaps > makes sense. But then it's probably good to have a note along the lines > of "New terms are introduced in _cursive_." in the terminology section. Yes, the idea was to write terms defined by the document in cursive where they are introduced. I'll add a note to the terminology section. > o a "host.ip" option is followed by a "port" option; > > Why is the port option mandatory? No default ports allowed? This is relates to a tricky question regarding design goals. As defined by RFC 3986, URIs can often be written in a number of ways: * Schemes can be written in upper- or lowercase but are case-insensitive. * Registered name are case-insensitive as well. * Hex characters in percent encodings are case-insensitive as well. * Schemes can define scheme-specific rules. E.g., in the case of "coap": * The port 5683 and an omitted port are equivalent. * The path "" and "/" are equivalent. The primary function of CIRI References is to dereference them (where RFC 3986 defines "dereferencing a URI" as using an access mechanism determined by "URI resolution" to perform an action on the URI's resource). For that, a client only needs to compare URI schemes, pass registered names to a name resolution service, and know the default ports of the protocols it actually implements. The question is if we secondarily also want to be able to compare CIRIs. Normally, because of all of these normalization rules, this is quite tricky to do for all URI schemes (in particular if a URI scheme has scheme-specific rules and is not recognized by an implementation). However, if we restrict CIRIs to follow the normalization rules of CoAP, then we can actually support any URI scheme with the same normalization rules (such as HTTP) with ease. The only thing we need to know to successfully compare two CIRIs with an unrecognized scheme is - the default port. So, at the cost of two bytes in a CIRI with a default port, we gain that we can compare any supported CIRI even when the scheme is unrecognized. Is it worth it? In my opinion, yes - if we want to be able to compare CIRIs. On that, I don't have a good opinion yet. What do you think? > 3. CBOR > > ciri =3D [?(scheme: 1, text), > ?(host.name: 2, text // > host.ip: 3, bytes .size 4 / bytes .size 16), > ?(port: 4, uint .size 2), > ?(path.type: 5, path-type), > *(path: 6, text), > *(query: 7, text), > ?(fragment: 8, text)]> > > Isn't "text" too permissive type for most (all?) of the components? RFC 3986 actually makes no restrictions at all on what characters can be used in registered names, paths segments, queries and fragment identifiers. (The only requirement is that some of them need to be percent-encoded.) So, as I understand it, "text" (a.k.a. "tstr") is the right match here. The scheme is restricted with a regex in -00: ciri =3D [?(scheme: 1, text .regexp "[A-Za-z][A-Za-z0-9+.-]*"), ... Klaus From nobody Tue Jan 22 06:54:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70CE91286E7 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 06:54:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_FAIL=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ToztEx2I9OQP for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 06:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8597::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F2331274D0 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 06:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-f179.google.com ([209.85.160.179]); authenticated by wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1glxRl-0003mc-5l; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 15:54:37 +0100 Received: by mail-qt1-f179.google.com with SMTP id t33so27811707qtt.4 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 06:54:37 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukc7QSbL5Eyxp0jz82IPDrtDLL7KXZwuGDEen8xR904yc1deeNuV uhJWYuk7Z/5qqKLch1bJHECzU6Y328vOg5kkyCI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4q+K/4PejuNiud3LjkTav8LGW8JOHPYeynDOS99Ai95DMBG+z0SFC6QaR0DbE4YhOT9HRMa90EQGUTcH8GR34= X-Received: by 2002:aed:35c5:: with SMTP id d5mr31288978qte.212.1548168876122; Tue, 22 Jan 2019 06:54:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181031164534.GA4995@hephaistos.amsuess.com> In-Reply-To: <20181031164534.GA4995@hephaistos.amsuess.com> From: Klaus Hartke Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 15:53:59 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Christian_Ams=C3=BCss?= Cc: T2TRG@irtf.org, draft-hartke-t2trg-coral@ietf.org, "core@ietf.org WG" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; hartke@projectcool.de; 1548168879; 5feffc8c; X-HE-SMSGID: 1glxRl-0003mc-5l Archived-At: Subject: [T2TRG] Review of CIRIs (was: Review of CoRAL) X-BeenThere: t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 14:54:42 -0000 Hi Christian, thanks again for your review. Here's the next batch of replies, this time related to CIRIs. Christian Ams=C3=BCss wrote: > * Appendix C: Do I understand correctly that there are some CBOR encoded > relative references that can not (even when knowing the rel in > append-relation) be expressed in a relative-ref? In particular, those > would be the append-* types. If so, it would be prudent to point out > right next to where it says that "CBOR-encoded IRI References are not > capable of expressing all IRI references". In principle, it is always to possible to use IRIs everywhere. Relative references are more like a compression mechanism that allows us to write IRIs more efficiently when they share a common base. In that sense, there are no CIRI references that cannot be expressed by an IRI reference: ciri_ref_to_iri_ref(ciri, base_ciri) =3D make_iri_relative( ciri_to_iri(resolve_ciri(ciri, base_ciri)), ciri_to_iri(base_ciri)) > * Most of the URI resolution gets away without string comparisons. I'd > like to suggest making "../" an explicit URI option (say, a `*(parent: > 5.5)` that'd go between path.type and and path. References with > dot-segments inside them are probably safe to put in the "not capable > of expressing all" category. Good idea. My proposal would be to use the path.type option for this: path.type Specifies the type of the URI path for reference resolution. The option value is an integer in the range 0 to 127, named as follows: 0 - absolute-path 1 - append-relation 2 - append-path 3 - relative-path 4 - relative-path-1up 5 - relative-path-2up 6 - relative-path-3up 7 - relative-path-4up ... path Specifies one segment of the URI path. The option value can be any Unicode string with the exception of the strings "." and "..". This option can occur more than once. > As I understand URI resolution, we don't need a "./" because that only > needs to be explicit when starting with something that has a colon in > it that's not the scheme's colon, otherwise "./x/y" is always > equivalent to "x/y". Good point. Removed with the above proposal. > * Speaking of expressiveness of the encoded URIs: (Especially as urn: is > used in the document,) would it hurt to grow the encoded references > such that they can encode urns? It might be sufficient to allow scheme > without a host/port but a path. Makes sense. It would be good to know that set of URIs we want to support exactly and what the scheme-specific normalization rules are for these (see also the discussion on comparisons in [1]). > Apropos port: Why must this be present after a host name? This > complicates round-tripping to URIs (because the algorithm has to know > to fill in default ports of all protocols), limits applicability to > portless protocols and adds some bytes -- and in the embedded > implementation, adding a default port can be as easy as just setting > it at initialization time before parsing. Ari also brought this up in his review. See the discussion in [1]. > * Appendix C: A state transition diagram like the ones on > http://json.org/ could be as expressive as the list in C.3 while being > easier to grasp. Added in -00. > * How are compressed URIs expressed in CBOR? Flat [6, "foo", 6, "bar"] > or nested [[6, "foo"], [6, "bar"]]? My first reading (and current > implementation) resulted in "nested", supported by the `(option, > value) =3D href[0]` line in C4, but reading C.1 with the CDDL spec next > to it (and running the cddl tool) rather indicates "flat" to me. Flat [6, "foo", 6, "bar"]. I'm adding a clarification and some examples in the next draft revision. > Either way, some examples would be great. Agreed. Working on it. > * Nit: calling a sequence of options _absolute_ brings up the > association of the "absolute URI", which is not the same as "URI" > (which is by definition not a reference, but sometimes it helps to say > "full URI"). An Absolute URI would not have a fragment identifier (and > is defined to ease definign protocols where the fragment is never > sent), whereas the non-relative or full option sequence described here > can easily (and should be able to) contain a fragment identifier. I see the potential confusion, but I don't have a good idea how to phrase it in a better way. Any suggestions? Klaus [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/t2trg/7RIEEHql5Jm70TAzlOuQeXAwNfc From nobody Wed Jan 23 01:05:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A86F8123FFD for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 01:05:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.875 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-4.553, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=Xkc2B89c; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=HgV/UIBd Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 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score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_FAIL=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YVtYlFt65t4q for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 10:49:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8597::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA6B11310B9 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 09:57:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-f177.google.com ([209.85.160.177]); authenticated by wp382.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1gmMmY-0004Td-CQ; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 18:57:46 +0100 Received: by mail-qt1-f177.google.com with SMTP id u47so3393650qtj.6 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 09:57:46 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukef8P0LpWo4wp3x9r5YqhgUCCRw14xVWqCNJAjzFu/Ob+0K3TAY FzA/y9hOtik28CudSv4jeXHRX1G5apx14dhJ5Sk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7wdlgWWJYTCCiKgsbd6Opv9q5SsBUsmf063dne/GAoIzZY5Rx42X/fifrGA2sDDRgVGMtgrW9iS6khTnDRnnc= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2eb8:: with SMTP id h53mr3359792qta.18.1548266265347; Wed, 23 Jan 2019 09:57:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <58aa0ae4-b3fe-abf7-9bda-4908ef0b3fd7@ericsson.com> <52465A18-0B76-4F75-AB83-69699BB7F366@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <52465A18-0B76-4F75-AB83-69699BB7F366@ericsson.com> From: Klaus Hartke Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 18:57:09 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?QXJpIEtlcsOkbmVu?= Cc: "draft-hartke-t2trg-ciri@ietf.org" , "T2TRG@irtf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; hartke@projectcool.de; 1548266268; fa8eccb7; X-HE-SMSGID: 1gmMmY-0004Td-CQ Archived-At: Subject: Re: [T2TRG] draft-hartke-t2trg-ciri-00 review X-BeenThere: t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 18:49:33 -0000 Ari Ker=C3=A4nen wrote: > > So, at the cost of two bytes in a CIRI with a default port, we gain > > that we can compare any supported CIRI even when the scheme is > > unrecognized. Is it worth it? In my opinion, yes - if we want to be > > able to compare CIRIs. On that, I don't have a good opinion yet. What > > do you think? > > Seems like a sensible design choice. But since it's non-obvious, should i= t be mentioned somewhere in the document? Yes. The section on comparisons is currently missing, mostly because I'm not sure if we actually need to be able to compare. If not, we could also support URI schemes with different normalization rules. So, as mentioned in [1], it would be nice to have a discussion on what URI schemes we want to support and whether comparisons are actually needed. > >> Isn't "text" too permissive type for most (all?) of the components? > > > > RFC 3986 actually makes no restrictions at all on what characters can > > be used in registered names, paths segments, queries and fragment > > identifiers. (The only requirement is that some of them need to be > > percent-encoded.) So, as I understand it, "text" (a.k.a. "tstr") is > > the right match here. > > Does this mean also control characters like new-line are OK, or is there = need for restricting that? Should we express the need for percent-encoding = in CDDL? I don't see anything in RFC 3986 that would prevent percent-encoded control characters e.g. in a path segment: . Since in CBOR text strings are prefixed by their length, we don't need to do any percent encoding there: [1, "http", 2, "example.com", 4, 80, 6, "First Line\r\nSecond Line", 6, ""] (in CBOR diagnostic notation). Klaus [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/core/ITSAbkgxMhlgzwn-20Jtk6mfN04 From nobody Tue Jan 29 01:29:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E687130F3C for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 01:29:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.854 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.854 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-4.553, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=EZoF0TeX; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=HnuwtLLL Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SQk-C02L_8DY for ; 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To find a date/time that works better, please indicate you= r preference in this Doodle by end of business on Wednesday, Jan 30th: https://doodle.com/poll/mx4ukm9fxabywweu#table Draft agenda: - Adding semantics to existing instances of data=20 - Data model component re-usability - Planning for IETF 104 Thanks, Ari From nobody Tue Jan 29 08:41:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918FD130E30 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:41:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wm_IR0Spmn_V for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:41:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-xc36.google.com (mail-yw1-xc36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D814130E09 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:41:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-xc36.google.com with SMTP id g194so8426576ywe.7 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:41:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=qF76c7FWyqaR4CfzfTfa7KoxKCH8C2DoKOzlplBilK4=; b=UtdSOqdT+dyJnzLe0qpri0lb+8sQwIZM4RAigwjut8cuKoqiXhSzAL0ZfZvHP30Tvl WQhLT9hVZHeKRE9uZCCBaMLLparkMB1Q816OsZEV3aZzSQoiYPOFjD4bL4hBdGYEGXZM 23f3vlnLziCaxOODV3j1FKZ8NYovjpGx+gV7MuwbsNrBgYTt3GopE3ljQXWJ0WPfZjaR JIDkcVa1jytf9tpzJ2PPOIYDBh3pDxHgwKGjC2RZhh0mlA8qa8SMnJLNLTclwo0acdGr 9+J76uV5pr/gY0VLbJvmegjw4rwM0K0WlX4Fyou7A8s2V0SZGXYNkTsvV562CCIPS5H8 oHZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qF76c7FWyqaR4CfzfTfa7KoxKCH8C2DoKOzlplBilK4=; b=klvIxAX2+0Ius32Q77hUU4TQvapoCgMyziRCBDRmicTMYBlnAgaue0nTHEyFONT+5+ 28dPmHgkg2AFv5Fr1xmWkALG2evROqiAdvus+iXSQtFAFKnZzlGEQocmZn9M0OXhqc98 XcV6QqdSmoUtTHB4Ix7KHoHBUhg+XKC28yV2pX09Ju7uuZbJBasemAYsNrfNJsDmgg38 G8RQmAyGEypWDCKvo06xqANbS9gXJVOSf9O98mHT/uWmXbQTWm+b6jpYLWdgVboV5Fkm BqG8k8pyRS40m9GxYzjellOVHovLVNi6FSnAIRLFtWKAxLRnQTTDvPwmkzXJiZz3tkam HdaA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukdqT8CrovJh6Nv0eesc4EsyjVjz3SVBhu6pPXm/H4ObI/hH3nEV Oy24XxWSkxZPviz2wdAA+qK2wlIQiEhrCnsWs7NuPw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN5kdB5zqB24naC2xsdOJYe7fxU/lXUysVoFSLZsLDjYCGyF4NiYppnXNvXqhBP0hwzroeh0CsdX6x7W56Hs/iY= X-Received: by 2002:a81:a1c2:: with SMTP id y185mr25131918ywg.323.1548780069932; Tue, 29 Jan 2019 08:41:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154877900070.7580.15737117911549021114.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <154877900070.7580.15737117911549021114.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org From: Behcet Sarikaya Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 10:40:59 -0600 Message-ID: To: "t2trg@irtf.org" Cc: Michael Richardson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e751cf05809b750d" Archived-At: Subject: [T2TRG] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstrapping-06.txt X-BeenThere: t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 16:41:21 -0000 --000000000000e751cf05809b750d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi all, Please find below our draft Revision 06 on secure bootstrapping mechanisms. This revision handles all issues raised in Micheal's review in December 2018. Regards, Behcet, Mohit, Dan A new version of I-D, draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstrapping-06.txt has been successfully submitted by Behcet Sarikaya and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstrapping Revision: 06 Title: Secure IoT Bootstrapping: A Survey Document date: 2019-01-28 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 22 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstrapping-06.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstrapping/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstrapping-06 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstrapping Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstrapping-06 Abstract: This document presents a survey of secure bootstrapping mechanisms available for smart objects that are part of an Internet of Things (IoT) network. It aims to provide a structured classification of the available mechanisms. The document does not prescribe any one secure bootstrapping mechanism and rather presents IoT developers with different options to choose from, depending on their use-case, security requirements and the user interface available on their smart objects. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --000000000000e751cf05809b750d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

Please find below our draft Rev= ision 06 on secure bootstrapping mechanisms. This revision handles all issu= es raised in Micheal's review in December 2018.

Regards,
Behcet, Mohit, Dan

A new version of I-D, draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstrapping-06.txt
has been successfully submitted by Behcet Sarikaya and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstr= apping
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A006
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Secure IoT Bootstrapping: A Survey=
Document date:=C2=A0 2019-01-28
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 22
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-sarikay= a-t2trg-sbootstrapping-06.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstra= pping/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstrapping-06 Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootst= rapping
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-sarikaya-t2tr= g-sbootstrapping-06

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document presents a survey of secure bootstrapping mechan= isms
=C2=A0 =C2=A0available for smart objects that are part of an Internet of Th= ings
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(IoT) network.=C2=A0 It aims to provide a structured classific= ation of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0available mechanisms.=C2=A0 The document does not prescribe an= y one secure
=C2=A0 =C2=A0bootstrapping mechanism and rather presents IoT developers wit= h
=C2=A0 =C2=A0different options to choose from, depending on their use-case,=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0security requirements and the user interface available on thei= r smart
=C2=A0 =C2=A0objects.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

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Thu, 31 Jan 2019 08:57:05 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukfCFVlGywnRsB594zkQOyrYzzFKxqKR7L46xwQ5QcDwb/aigg8l 8GXxonz26QRoZ5eWRPwydqokgB7xDf+KdvbecVI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4VOMTWpv/GKGYv4Xgc1a6DitDbxGBuIBisDtSU+hlsQlA/0HT51LdT74qnFzKcFAghoegbqdu1zdYfI9OGf4A= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2eb8:: with SMTP id h53mr34400736qta.18.1548953824807; Thu, 31 Jan 2019 08:57:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181031164534.GA4995@hephaistos.amsuess.com> In-Reply-To: <20181031164534.GA4995@hephaistos.amsuess.com> From: Klaus Hartke Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 17:56:29 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Christian_Ams=C3=BCss?= Cc: T2TRG@irtf.org, draft-hartke-t2trg-coral@ietf.org, "core@ietf.org WG" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; hartke@projectcool.de; 1548953829; e4ed9f90; X-HE-SMSGID: 1gpFeE-0000i8-1N Archived-At: Subject: Re: [T2TRG] Review of CoRAL X-BeenThere: t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 16:57:13 -0000 Hi Christian, here's the final batch of replies to the original review. (I hope nothing got lost.) Christian Ams=C3=BCss wrote: > * "The CoRAL data and interaction model is a superset of the Web Linking > model" / "can describe simple resource metadata in a way similar to > the Resource Description Framework (RDF)": > > From the examples in 2.1 (in particular, because the rel becomes a > full URI), it appears the othr way round: That the data model is a > superset of the RDF model, and that the document describes an > equivalence of a subset of RDF statements to typed links (as used in > link headers, link format and HTML). Hmm... it's not really a superset of RDF, since RDF has features like the ability to describe arbitrary graphs of connected resources, blank nodes, etc. that CoRAL doesn't. Strictly speaking, it's also not a superset of Web Linking, since Web Linking has features like target attributes that CoRAL doesn't. I think the important thing here is to put the reader of the document into the right mindset: It's all about navigating between REST resources, constructing request messages, etc. and not so much about reasoning in a knowledge graph. > * Browsing context: This growing history appears hard to do in a > constrained context. Can an agent still work with any given maximum > history length, in particular 1 or even 0? I'd say the necessary history length depends entirely on the application context. A history length of 1 or even 0 is probably entirely sufficient in most cases. I'm de-emphasizing the session history a bit in the next draft revision. > * Forms: I haven't followed all the W3C & surroundings discussions on > forms, so I can't say much there as I don't yet understand how they > were to actually work. Examples that go beyond "POST to create" and > "DELETE to delete" would be helpful when they'd go beyond the > intuitive. -- But I assume that as this matures, any formative github > discussions will evolve into referrable documents. Forms are certainly something where some real-world examples would be very useful. The high-level idea is: - With links it's easy to find out what resources are available at a device at a granular level (as opposed to just knowing that the device has certain resources available based on device type). - With forms it becomes easy to find out what operations are available on these resources at a granular level (as opposed to just knowing that the resource has certain operations available based on resource type). - With form data, it becomes easy to find out what parameters are available on these operations at a granular level (as opposed to just knowing that the operation has certain parameters available based on operation type). Of course, not every application will have a need for going into this granular level of detail. But the idea is to provide this ability to applications where a more granular evolution strategy is beneficial. > * Representations: I think it would be helpful to state something in the > area of the second paragraph along the lines of "The producer of the > CoRAL document claims that the embedded representation is fresh at > least for as long as the CoRAL document is fresh", if so intended. > > It's obvious that the "full, partial or inconsistent" part is > intentionally giving much leeway to the CoRAL producer. Could this > possibly be narrowed down for resources under the same authority? A > statement like "(under some condition), the presence of a > representation states that there exists a request to the target that > would result in a response with the given payload" could go into a > direction where an agent could populate its own cache with it and work > on from there. Populating cache with representations is tricky, since a cache in CoAP (and HTTP) stores responses, not representations. I see embedded representations mostly on the same level as the hints provided by most link target attributes -- as hints. But I'm open to discussing more narrow interpretations. > * Binary data format: When relations expressed as uint are first > mentioned (and possibly also with numeric form-field-name), a forward > reference to the topic of profiles would be helpful. I'm restructuring things a bit in the next draft revision. > * Textual format: I find this more confusing than helpful. The format is > too far from turtle to allow intuition to be taken from there > (especially as there are simple and qualified names, where turtle has > only qualified names but the qualifier may be empty), too far from the > binary representation to help understanding the binary format (eg. > someone only editing in text format would not see that naming a > resource linked as rel=3D"index" would be beneficial, but could > be misled to believe that application/octet-stream can be a compact > default or that representations can have more attributes -- plus > people were led to think that CoRAL is large on the wire). > > My impression is that CoRAL would not be written by humans, let alone > stored or transported as that. I think the document would be better > off if no textual format were defined, but full turtle (or a slim > superset thereof that's still within N3) were used to express the > semantics of a document (which would need an RDF serialization of > forms and representations, but that's more of a benefit than a > downside IMO). IMHO it's quite valuable to have a way for giving CoRAL examples with precise semantics that don't drown in the syntactic overhead that comes with expressing equivalent information in RDF (or some XML/JSON/Link Format dialect). Examples are written by humans, who also might want to store or transport them without losing the semantic information of grouping, indentation, or comments. I agree with some of the concerns related to intuition when coming from Turtle or going to the binary format. If there are ideas how the textual format could be improved, I'm very interested to include them. > * Only occurred to me when writing the above > extended-diagnostic-notation example: Might it make sense to allow > profile defined URIs as well, like common licenses or (when looking a > the FoaF example) types? They'd need to be told apart from numeric > literals that could just as well show up in a link target, but the iri > rule could get an additional `?(profiled: 9, uint)` entry that could > only exist on its own and expands like a numeric rel. Yes. My proposal would be to set up a dictionary of key-value entries, with keys being unsigned integers and values being either an IRI, an integer, a string, etc. These dictionary entries could be referenced both at places where link relation types occur and where link targets occur. I'm adding a proposal to the next draft revision. Klaus From nobody Thu Jan 31 09:03:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: t2trg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64CE2130DC8; Thu, 31 Jan 2019 09:03:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QwnxBUfbk09G; Thu, 31 Jan 2019 09:03:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F91D126F72; Thu, 31 Jan 2019 09:03:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c8:406a:91ff:fe74:f2b7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x0VH3LAT024599; Thu, 31 Jan 2019 18:03:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p54A6CC50.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.204.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 43r64n1yKNz1Br6; Thu, 31 Jan 2019 18:03:21 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 18:03:20 +0100 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Christian_Ams=C3=BCss?= , draft-hartke-t2trg-coral@ietf.org, T2TRG@irtf.org, "core@ietf.org WG" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 570646998.600332-612909e94fb97b8805b07ad25c8f912f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20181031164534.GA4995@hephaistos.amsuess.com> To: Klaus Hartke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [T2TRG] Review of CoRAL X-BeenThere: t2trg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IRTF Thing-to-Thing Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 17:03:32 -0000 On Jan 31, 2019, at 17:56, Klaus Hartke wrote: >=20 > dictionary of key-value entries, > with keys being unsigned integers and values being either an IRI, an > integer, a string, etc. This could be part of the format, or it could be a separate compression = on top. I looked at this in the context of W3C TD: https://www.w3.org/2017/07/wot-f2f/slides/w3c-serialization.pdf Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten