From nobody Wed Sep 1 09:54:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB443A0D71 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 09:54:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vobkkuekPU7b for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 09:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE9723A0D70 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 09:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 181GsH7V060894 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:54:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1630515258; bh=vhDAU0UJvvOv6wvIFKhBz6llTPiM5+Rw9JUhax3fJuw=; h=Subject:References:To:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=C3rkgONBlF/7U9qpC5wVSCpRElhlkSZzbDPJET1xjugBV81NXYGnuWioFjFNug3nB Vk7YTEl8k5szcSUBvcabx45MpkCeTQxMrVrxu9By7rW+1XU/2H6PZpJxxxuP3nYDe3 3fM4AHGj7JteBGZCMQc5bjvUyTP69Bn4P/jRdYDo= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain References: To: tools-discuss Cc: gmcpherran@outlook.com From: Robert Sparks X-Forwarded-Message-Id: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:54:12 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------77245F9048C117AF64945E3C" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Fwd: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 16:54:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------77245F9048C117AF64945E3C Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1EFA9780A1DF806027E9F751" --------------1EFA9780A1DF806027E9F751 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Moving this to tools-discuss. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 From: Greg M To: datatracker-project@ietf.org Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an obscure term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation of "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in the "About" page. Example of public "bis" confusion: http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow Thank Youfor the work that you do. Greg McPherran Siteware.org --------------1EFA9780A1DF806027E9F751 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Moving this to tools-discuss.



-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis"
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000
From: Greg M <GMcPherran@outlook.com>
To: datatracker-project@ietf.org <datatracker-project@ietf.org>


Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an obscure term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation of "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in the "About" page.

Example of public "bis" confusion:

Thank Youfor the work that you do.

Greg McPherran
Siteware.org

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Wed, 1 Sep 2021 21:19:07 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1630520347; bh=6nm/3/r/lDvnB5EJgWYFFodBS6SFKRUN4mGmitG/WlA=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=rtjZhtwIYE8N2WL4bNvd0LYsBIIcfY5d4VfAHSr3r0zXt1Rkhc9f3Nlw6BDurTcK7 aRDIN3fpxz1ztgiH9dQJopf/uCs8YaCm/cF0Fhkzv4yRQvG8v/e7GW5pJYwzWUVB/o O3Sz/8fMe/JR19luDUWMtugFysb3plHnj4KCgVuM= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CCC12EA3-1A63-44E9-AA31-6F4F0D2948AF"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 21:19:04 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: Tools Discussion To: "Salz, Rich" References: X-MailScanner-ID: 50715600373.ADC6C X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What does "n.d." mean? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 18:19:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CCC12EA3-1A63-44E9-AA31-6F4F0D2948AF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I think I hit this in the past and decided it must mean "no date". IIRC = it was added for entries without a publication date. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_CCC12EA3-1A63-44E9-AA31-6F4F0D2948AF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmEvxBgACgkQVLXDCb9w wVf9zRAAuIMj2LGlZu7w3eoOJma6UolVdYvY+2+fcbJv8DWoR7Cyjr8l85+JbVIk RFYNBHUUScLwNYMA6vO/i2TQts+ylzrLNt20PAdNXX5f86cCrFnrP1LoZk4PRpDw MzdCAjnmGcVZWyuDU+sEknvx29OPmYpPg/QWXoM5uq+BVAqrC3+DSIr+p0EZL2XD UKrZTdDseByZJmNztzyELI836KS+3Q+5SlTF0utoaDiTrBJ6PGtSc3nv6UPmaSB2 +QF3gbJnoYkK9LmyZo5UkfS6IAMpq9pZE0CKdsNHqEHJeVYPR4721d6weq3GW1PZ smvoOcWbRyPKcjfvMcGHlh+zhy5ZIHeMwYml5/NfXTWp8JLNY/QnfjhgXkMTTqGd UVsfz3K7DhYFR5Mw2yUp3t2wEUyrVP/ryLJ24aikDTmJ1kQ/vRBb7nTUZUWH95HB tBDdFNzp704Zz/X7p309eDOgxE7aOf5YF2pRq5rTx9ySH1sYiNnldfDF8DGdJgsS g3x3tF9QWWGRLF+JzWbAm2hXAD7HiiBhv31Z6OL15/fCuHVWbssa/KLsMdOFsE3S w1H6AMhV3nLR4NI95KyEhji3s2om0RUv7JDurZBZ3o3fhko5ncJ967IgmIjm7I4o PrNsin88BPaicT7M+kN+NmKND4I+GkxceTu+v5rBD2TrTZ2vrnI= =DlsK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_CCC12EA3-1A63-44E9-AA31-6F4F0D2948AF-- From nobody Wed Sep 1 12:09:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C77F3A1605 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 12:08:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=bluepopcorn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DMm0E0Qtinh5 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 12:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from v2.bluepopcorn.net (v2.bluepopcorn.net [IPv6:2607:f2f8:a994::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 519C63A15F7 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 12:08:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bluepopcorn.net; s=supersize; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:Subject:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Qzzq6EUZ+zrVoOzHizBBU/nMue86Z1ouN5KiHY4VsH8=; b=EDh5/Y/cgNq0PlFV+qQeQD9mDn bXVsk+qCpuyYVsJIXBx2RSjZ1oK8kvJfrrt3KnJNYUB9v/lS/of/jZgf1d7PLtXQC2liWyN2NTxXB j/q4+oy4LxXy9wP7YOjYbCyUv/8UqQEtWFHCdljONSxc76DPWa77KcRVUBjq7IWzu0mo=; Received: from [64.71.6.2] (helo=[10.100.11.204]) by v2.bluepopcorn.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mLVbQ-00076M-9D for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 12:08:52 -0700 From: Jim Fenton To: Tools Discussion Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 12:08:50 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5820) Message-ID: <65686008-0EB5-4765-B20F-C3E038C5EF28@bluepopcorn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Session Request notification email X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 19:09:00 -0000 After scheduling a WG session just now, I noticed that the =E2=80=9CConfl= icts to Avoid=E2=80=9D section was blank even though I had listed several= conflicts (both chair and technology conflicts). Did this get lost from = the notification message somehow? If so, does that notification come from= the datatracker or from AMS? If the former, I can open a ticket on that,= but I=E2=80=99m not sure where the dividing line is. -Jim From nobody Wed Sep 1 13:14:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98973A1893 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:14:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eTsOZJHO_tQr for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B66323A188D for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Thread-Index: AQHXn23iWL/CuB5WEkyzt5+5c2Y2Xw== Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 20:13:52 +0000 Message-ID: <11B247A6-673F-4EF8-9C2C-F1ECD12C35B9@akamai.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.52.21080801 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_11B247A6673F4EF89C2CF1ECD12C35B9akamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-01_05:2021-09-01, 2021-09-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=726 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2108310000 definitions=main-2109010116 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: LK4bwzgQCyDPVEsIpihazPfZitM7WxYf X-Proofpoint-GUID: LK4bwzgQCyDPVEsIpihazPfZitM7WxYf X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-01_05,2021-09-01_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=629 adultscore=0 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2108310000 definitions=main-2109010118 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.19) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint2 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] where to make suggestions for rfc-editor.org pages? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 20:14:02 -0000 --_000_11B247A6673F4EF89C2CF1ECD12C35B9akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 WW91IGtub3cgd2hhdCB3b3VsZCBiZSB2ZXJ5IGNvb2w/ICBXaGVuIHlvdSBzZWUgdGhlIOKAnE9i c29sZXRlc+KAnSDigJxVcGRhdGVkIGJ54oCdIHRhZ3Mgb24gYW4gcmZjLWVkaXRvci5vcmcgaW5m byBwYWdlLCBpdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBncmVhdCBpZiBhIHRvb2x0aXAgd291bGQgYXBwZWFyIHdpdGgg dGhlIFJGQyB0aXRsZSBpZiB5b3UgaG92ZXJlZCBvdmVyIG9uZSBvZiB0aG9zZSByZWZlcmVuY2Vz Lg0KDQpXaGVyZS93aG8gc2hvdWxkIEkgc3VnZ2VzdCB0aGlzIGNvb2xuZXNzIHRvPw0K --_000_11B247A6673F4EF89C2CF1ECD12C35B9akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <19ACC672C66B4C4F8702687CB09CF055@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6bz0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6b2ZmaWNlIiB4 bWxuczp3PSJ1cm46c2NoZW1hcy1taWNyb3NvZnQtY29tOm9mZmljZTp3b3JkIiB4bWxuczptPSJo dHRwOi8vc2NoZW1hcy5taWNyb3NvZnQuY29tL29mZmljZS8yMDA0LzEyL29tbWwiIHhtbG5zPSJo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9UUi9SRUMtaHRtbDQwIj4NCjxoZWFkPg0KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVp dj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9dXRmLTgiPg0KPG1l dGEgbmFtZT0iR2VuZXJhdG9yIiBjb250ZW50PSJNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCAxNSAoZmlsdGVyZWQg bWVkaXVtKSI+DQo8c3R5bGU+PCEtLQ0KLyogRm9udCBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KQGZvbnQtZmFj ZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FtYnJpYSBNYXRoIjsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDQgNSAzIDUgNCA2 IDMgMiA0O30NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToy IDE1IDUgMiAyIDIgNCAzIDIgNDt9DQovKiBTdHlsZSBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KcC5Nc29Ob3Jt YWwsIGxpLk1zb05vcm1hbCwgZGl2Lk1zb05vcm1hbA0KCXttYXJnaW46MGluOw0KCWZvbnQtc2l6 ZToxMi4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0Kc3Bhbi5FbWFp bFN0eWxlMTcNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXR5cGU6cGVyc29uYWwtY29tcG9zZTsNCglmb250LWZhbWls eToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsNCgljb2xvcjp3aW5kb3d0ZXh0O30NCi5Nc29DaHBEZWZh dWx0DQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS10eXBlOmV4cG9ydC1vbmx5Ow0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMi4wcHQ7DQoJ Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7fQ0KQHBhZ2UgV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJ e3NpemU6OC41aW4gMTEuMGluOw0KCW1hcmdpbjoxLjBpbiAxLjBpbiAxLjBpbiAxLjBpbjt9DQpk aXYuV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3BhZ2U6V29yZFNlY3Rpb24xO30NCi0tPjwvc3R5bGU+DQo8L2hl YWQ+DQo8Ym9keSBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyIgbGluaz0iIzA1NjNDMSIgdmxpbms9IiM5NTRGNzIiIHN0 eWxlPSJ3b3JkLXdyYXA6YnJlYWstd29yZCI+DQo8ZGl2IGNsYXNzPSJXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjEiPg0K PHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPllvdSBr bm93IHdoYXQgd291bGQgYmUgdmVyeSBjb29sPyZuYnNwOyBXaGVuIHlvdSBzZWUgdGhlIOKAnE9i c29sZXRlc+KAnSDigJxVcGRhdGVkIGJ54oCdIHRhZ3Mgb24gYW4gcmZjLWVkaXRvci5vcmcgaW5m byBwYWdlLCBpdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBncmVhdCBpZiBhIHRvb2x0aXAgd291bGQgYXBwZWFyIHdpdGgg dGhlIFJGQyB0aXRsZSBpZiB5b3UgaG92ZXJlZCBvdmVyIG9uZSBvZiB0aG9zZQ0KIHJlZmVyZW5j ZXMuPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5 bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNs YXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0Ij5XaGVyZS93aG8g c2hvdWxkIEkgc3VnZ2VzdCB0aGlzIGNvb2xuZXNzIHRvPzxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4N CjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_11B247A6673F4EF89C2CF1ECD12C35B9akamaicom_-- From nobody Wed Sep 1 13:25:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A60E3A1901 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:25:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s2WJquc07Wtq for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60B203A1902 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H0Ftc0CmRz2xKF; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 22:25:44 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 22:25:43 +0200 Cc: Tools Discussion Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2D0D8750-886D-4DAC-A3F5-2F02A76328D8@tzi.org> References: To: "Salz, Rich" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What does "n.d." mean? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 20:25:54 -0000 =E2=80=9Cn.d." indeed means =E2=80=9Cno date=E2=80=9D. In scholarly citations, if there is no date associated with a reference, = one can use =E2=80=9Cn.d.=E2=80=9D to identify the reference as undated. Of course, styles differ here, but AFAICT, both APA and the Chicago = Manual of Style (CMOS) use =E2=80=9Cn.d.=E2=80=9D (*). (Incidentally, the RFC editor doesn=E2=80=99t seem to like =E2=80=9Cn.d.=E2= =80=9D, even though CMOS is the underlying style guide for RFCs.) =E2=80=9Cn.d." is the default value that kramdown-rfc assigns for a = reference=E2=80=99s date when none is given. The reason for this kramdown-rfc default is that it is easy to forget = putting in a date, and getting n.d. provides a reminder that you should = put in one. (It is also the =E2=80=9Ccorrect=E2=80=9D way to handle undated sources, = but see =E2=80=9Cthe RFC editor=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D above.) If you really don=E2=80=99t want a date, explicitly set date: false BTW, there is an example for that in https://github.com/cabo/kramdown-rfc2629#references I probably should add more detail to = https://github.com/cabo/kramdown-rfc2629/wiki/Pitfalls#reference-pitfalls Now https://github.com/cabo/kramdown-rfc2629/issues/130 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (*) I love the advice given in [1] for MLA style: Do not use n.d. unless your professor asks you to do so. =20 [1]: https://libanswers.snhu.edu/faq/129215 > On 1. Sep 2021, at 20:15, Salz, Rich = wrote: >=20 > The TXT and HTML versions have this: > [IANA] "IANA", n.d., . > =20 > The MD file has this: > IANA: > target: https://www.ietf.org/standards/iana > title: IANA > =20 > What am I doing wrong? And is this written down someplace that I = should have read? Tnx. > =20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Wed Sep 1 13:37:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD78D3A1966 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:37:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TZqHEVd-PQpV for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F8D23A195F for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122330.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 181HSOQ4011456; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 21:37:21 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=atGlXgH4cohdDTizIyLBG6ZxjhefkVJb+AN+iCwUwrg=; b=hizAu3PUjndGsHAjrG35QVZR2F1bdHks3YAAePzMgPVO9IRHJCPFGmWsgbUXexSzhfjY LZewZcO12ekWrXuaL+1qnPGGUaMGycMzHQILAIzrtC1EepITffeHYFmcUA8CTfr/4yV0 YejcI9ME9Y4WkVubSA1sE/MnzBT7A9VJUO6L9KCRgODL9jFX9+9K9StC46Yu8JbTyvb0 RACp7kIDjtdDBw5ubkJyQA5skUlM/4SeRWvteDPu55TK8oOlXjH1mY7hIwGW1SJoD7br 82h0POyi6o/8xQ1fr8DuNUgibjeHUDQLXBAGKZzjQswdCp+5JgBpt/eErYm6rcFLMi1u qg== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint5 (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [184.51.33.60] (may be forged)) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3atdxv54y2-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 01 Sep 2021 21:37:20 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 181KYSTu016893; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:37:20 -0700 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3ate1vr6h2-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 01 Sep 2021 13:37:20 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:37:19 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:37:19 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Carsten Bormann CC: Tools Discussion Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] What does "n.d." mean? Thread-Index: AQHXn11N8GqffB3DNUyscOPUBMK2E6uP42aA///ALYA= Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 20:37:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2D0D8750-886D-4DAC-A3F5-2F02A76328D8@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <2D0D8750-886D-4DAC-A3F5-2F02A76328D8@tzi.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.52.21080801 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <3E462510C7658E4A8F0F22EB80C3C35B@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-01_05:2021-09-01, 2021-09-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=670 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2108310000 definitions=main-2109010119 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: -Z05TS9N5b2V8AXXuRnR7jKXEpFzWJ1d X-Proofpoint-GUID: -Z05TS9N5b2V8AXXuRnR7jKXEpFzWJ1d X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-01_05,2021-09-01_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=616 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2108310000 definitions=main-2109010119 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.60) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint5 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] What does "n.d." mean? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 20:37:29 -0000 SSBmaWd1cmVkIG4uZC4gbWVhbnQgbm8gZGF0ZSwgYnV0IEkgY291bGRuJ3QgZmlndXJlIG91dCB0 aGUgZm9ybWF0IGFuZCBkaWRuJ3Qga25vdyBhYm91dCBmYWxzZS4gIFRueC4NCg0K From nobody Wed Sep 1 13:43:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384AA3A19D3 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:43:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Su9rz2E-Nlfm for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79B233A19D0 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 13:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H0GHD4WQmz2xKP; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 22:43:36 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 22:43:36 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss , gmcpherran@outlook.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6E85BB93-54DC-4D4D-98E4-4D27698EC98A@tzi.org> References: To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 20:43:46 -0000 Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an IETF = idiosyncrasy that one needs to learn about. If we are not talking about US export controls, =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D is = used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN would = use =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D. So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets =E2=80=9C3a" in Germany = and "3 bis" in France. In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (=E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80=9D), bis, = ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e.g. = V.42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that. Building a =E2=80=9C3 bis=E2=80=9D house doesn=E2=80=99t mean you = demolish =E2=80=9C3=E2=80=9D; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42. How =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D got the idiosyncratic =E2=80=9Creplacement = version of=E2=80=9D meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that was = simply trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCITT = habit. (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there = anyway.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > Moving this to tools-discuss. >=20 >=20 > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" > Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 > From: Greg M > To: datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 >=20 > Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect = detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an = obscure term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no = explanation of "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" = meaning e.g. in the "About" page. >=20 > Example of public "bis" confusion: > http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow >=20 > Thank You for the work that you do. >=20 > Greg McPherran > Siteware.org >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Wed Sep 1 16:20:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25DA53A1D82 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:20:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1cZbooEDUnDD for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com (mail-pf1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F9FD3A1D81 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id g14so164825pfm.1 for ; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 16:20:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=V6qDQ9/YPW/hU0QL3BNb8QkXOCldGbXh8LS5jPlrYLY=; b=kH0e/Go7T0KVWvMndfFoE30137/qAEA4wFRqJyG7kgCQXjj7tEXg57J+yOYGh7Np1A tDnAUF34sZYSVm//4z19S3J9BYoD1dUcgJ85z+zUi0aBE3IKi22ewt5/9weICM3hU8FS q6oywAo+UIRFhc+Ou6/b3lM1zSYcq0j1MrkiW+zl8V37R2maeAyyG8dXbXyK+R5DPUPk eklV08h5Kuwohn0ZpLb7Z3pM0nU9d1aIkRO6x6qVdsGlrtUvLcU/+JUkZKcxUcrplAXd uW+y5lDi06SkFax2bl3qJHMnxvj7W5CTYZL7Qq8cAxgJxotLssGC6QFHM8X8i3ZYkcw8 vw3g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=V6qDQ9/YPW/hU0QL3BNb8QkXOCldGbXh8LS5jPlrYLY=; b=gQxxdcr2qhukCkMXRFXDw77Kt9zkHQAmFUi6KEPPwW7e6FSEEYUaywsIZrYs6OWGxf oFuBMZ1xsvdL+aFj3h8gZt50rLlENvpf41jJuPynTSoY0wcuQyQL/4RwWMAw2zkL7+lr kHBooMPvNBERlSCu513CjhaQZI84qPiKRV9+N2QFz7OKLJrdpTisrcgVweRki2K+XtV9 TI184rsk5RYWHIUaG1J7TQ2Koz9nm0+R64Kl36vChStZdiqrrGa/ZCMnWMfonVZ6uQzy E12LslVMyR1YoGlkBENlvYP9tm7+xey/1eb3K74v/LwjNcYhDdo35vKEr7ncp5H1ALQc UIWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531f6270LQT+drAWzBOwOi6RySj2B5EObVD3UiQPHZwfr7AvDta6 cOGEJTJPJOdF5oVNqax2pnxVW+c5dmp93g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzVJWLk4D1jMdgVenBHQ8kSQskngGJ8umKfpiUMBCcGtINOVRyJh8RUoe8G17xPRQeHRKHBzw== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8e81:0:b0:3fe:f212:f9dd with SMTP id a1-20020aa78e81000000b003fef212f9ddmr300028pfr.46.1630538417779; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 16:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bx2sm27130pjb.35.2021.09.01.16.20.15 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 01 Sep 2021 16:20:17 -0700 (PDT) To: Carsten Bormann , Robert Sparks Cc: gmcpherran@outlook.com, tools-discuss References: <6E85BB93-54DC-4D4D-98E4-4D27698EC98A@tzi.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 11:20:12 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6E85BB93-54DC-4D4D-98E4-4D27698EC98A@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:20:26 -0000 > (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there an= yway.) The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject "Re: 1= 602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed also knew how = the CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that StackOverflow d= ebate, this is not exactly new terminology. Also, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bis . Does the IETF web = site really need to replace a dictionary? Regards Brian Carpenter On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an IETF idio= syncrasy that one needs to learn about. >=20 > If we are not talking about US export controls, =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D i= s used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN woul= d use =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D. > So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets =E2=80=9C3a" in German= y and "3 bis" in France. >=20 > In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (=E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80=9D), bis= , ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e.g= =2E V.42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that. >=20 > Building a =E2=80=9C3 bis=E2=80=9D house doesn=E2=80=99t mean you demol= ish =E2=80=9C3=E2=80=9D; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42. >=20 > How =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D got the idiosyncratic =E2=80=9Creplacement ve= rsion of=E2=80=9D meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that was si= mply trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCITT hab= it. >=20 > (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there an= yway.) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 >=20 >> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks wrote: >> >> Moving this to tools-discuss. >> >> >> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >> Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" >> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 >> From: Greg M >> To: datatracker-project@ietf.org >> >> >> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect detaile= d and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an obscure=20 term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation of "= bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in t= he "About" page. >> >> Example of public "bis" confusion: >> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow >> >> Thank You for the work that you do. >> >> Greg McPherran >> Siteware.org >> >> ___________________________________________= ________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf= =2Eorg >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 From nobody Wed Sep 1 16:35:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 533133A1DF3 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:35:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_FAIL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FnYiqHgl9xLb for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:45:216:3eff:fe7f:7abd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3306D3A1DF1 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd] (unknown [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7536AE536; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 01:35:39 +0200 (CEST) To: Brian E Carpenter , Carsten Bormann , Robert Sparks Cc: gmcpherran@outlook.com, tools-discuss References: <6E85BB93-54DC-4D4D-98E4-4D27698EC98A@tzi.org> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:35:37 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:35:52 -0000 Also, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? So the draft that preceded RFC 8489 should have been rfc5389ter, but that still does not seem right. rfc3489ter? On 9/1/21 4:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there anyway.) > > The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject "Re: 1602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed also knew how the CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that StackOverflow debate, this is not exactly new terminology. > > Also, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bis . Does the IETF web site really need to replace a dictionary? > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an IETF idiosyncrasy that one needs to learn about. >> >> If we are not talking about US export controls, “bis” is used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN would use “a”. >> So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets “3a" in Germany and "3 bis" in France. >> >> In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (“recommendations”), bis, ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e.g. V.42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that. >> >> Building a “3 bis” house doesn’t mean you demolish “3”; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42. >> >> How “bis” got the idiosyncratic “replacement version of” meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that was simply trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCITT habit. >> >> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there anyway.) >> >> Grüße, Carsten >> >> >>> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks wrote: >>> >>> Moving this to tools-discuss. >>> >>> >>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >>> Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" >>> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 >>> From: Greg M >>> To: datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> >>> >>> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an obscure > term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation of "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in the "About" page. >>> >>> Example of public "bis" confusion: >>> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow >>> >>> Thank You for the work that you do. >>> >>> Greg McPherran >>> Siteware.org >>> -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug From nobody Wed Sep 1 16:58:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15CC13A1EAF for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:57:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w8hPLvieQVSE for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50E923A1EA6 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B25473E6AB for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:57:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nfwE6EcgW_tM for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 13A0E45EDB39 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:57:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Message-Id: <3318CCB9-0C79-47D4-A365-10AAAFE67160@ietf.org> Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 11:57:47 +1200 To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Zulip implementation Service Plan X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:57:59 -0000 Hi I=E2=80=99ve put together a Service Plan for our upcoming Zulip = implementation based on work by Tim April and had that reviewed and = revised by a number of people who were involved in the trial. Robert is = now happy for this to be shared for comment and any further revisions. = Please find the document at = https://github.com/ietf-tools/zulip-implementation/blob/main/Service-Plan.= md The aim to is sign this off at the next Tools meeting in two weeks time. cheers Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Wed Sep 1 17:01:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FD653A1ED4 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 17:01:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.679 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.679 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yo70e1NyD4Dz for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 17:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A77763A1ED3 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 17:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (mobile-166-173-187-68.mycingular.net [166.173.187.68]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18201b3t017492 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 1 Sep 2021 19:01:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1630540899; bh=u4bXUkvn77HobSQG0RVcVqKQuVf1VizPpCf68CDZnww=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To; b=X1fpFsqLdt0+N3ASIYsjX5mu2Ovf6T/OKBfFLY5EbvowPyibKgfvvdYP6ip/A1cfu oFhX/0tHFfc+PPPKPgguwtaMogp1bX4PFr0n3P2J851kz+C4sHAP2QW9OKaYtVUHQC LkDiYh0hvyPw87ouqKU8VDs/X1zylF/GBn3B0m2g= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mobile-166-173-187-68.mycingular.net [166.173.187.68] claimed to be smtpclient.apple Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Robert Sparks Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 19:01:32 -0500 Message-Id: References: Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Carsten Bormann , gmcpherran@outlook.com, tools-discuss In-Reply-To: To: Marc Petit-Huguenin X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18G82) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 00:01:52 -0000 This is the updates conversation wearing a different skin.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 1, 2021, at 6:35 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? So the draft that p= receded RFC 8489 should have been rfc5389ter, but that still does not seem r= ight. rfc3489ter? >=20 > On 9/1/21 4:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there any= way.) >> The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject "Re: 1= 602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed also knew how the= CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that StackOverflow debate,= this is not exactly new terminology. >> Also, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bis . Does the IETF web s= ite really need to replace a dictionary? >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter >> On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an IETF idios= yncrasy that one needs to learn about. >>>=20 >>> If we are not talking about US export controls, =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D is= used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN would us= e =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D. >>> So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets =E2=80=9C3a" in Germany= and "3 bis" in France. >>>=20 >>> In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (=E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80=9D), bis,= ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e.g. V.= 42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that. >>>=20 >>> Building a =E2=80=9C3 bis=E2=80=9D house doesn=E2=80=99t mean you demoli= sh =E2=80=9C3=E2=80=9D; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42. >>>=20 >>> How =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D got the idiosyncratic =E2=80=9Creplacement ver= sion of=E2=80=9D meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that was simply= trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCITT habit. >>>=20 >>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there any= way.) >>>=20 >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Moving this to tools-discuss. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >>>> Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" >>>> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 >>>> From: Greg M >>>> To: datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect detailed= and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an obscure >> term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation of "= bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in the "= About" page. >>>>=20 >>>> Example of public "bis" confusion: >>>> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow >>>>=20 >>>> Thank You for the work that you do. >>>>=20 >>>> Greg McPherran >>>> Siteware.org >>>>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Marc Petit-Huguenin > Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org > Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org > Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug From nobody Wed Sep 1 18:43:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A05F3A2246 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 18:43:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ry6kg2gYl80t for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 18:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-f170.google.com (mail-qk1-f170.google.com [209.85.222.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CAE33A2242 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2021 18:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-f170.google.com with SMTP id p4so431285qki.3 for ; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 18:43:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GyQ6z0T0gnAhRWNHBvbxknMJU0naO6+6XX5VG4FesYI=; b=DZZLxhODJdKNNVB8bTboGrKJko36z1/63iES5ekhqzVRsJKhQ8IRE2+0oml8o5y+sP wlVJra++VQPYLmoKvxEXCY0zMuVBi81BCotRaViCE29qDbB7zLGyX3oTthKpcKIVgpAQ uhORrDsz0rOHW+/as9IP3DhFxNsteYdKHmsOcQPAldhF8D10M1OzLiLrSbM1mNmKYsMh Fyi8B1ii4y0Cpur+BgZmKjtQiJcJ71Wi9IU2gthvTpSY7dvBd7qzkvf6pBC5zLjC7EDc M2Ksn6EVrDCys+wfE2J5P7BRFm39O5HQzX5kGJYNyOm2iHsW7IAiEC+/JBx159Xa++MC YJfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533QyjDyTaHJ8GQELRpa1hAavVHgYLdmmOJmjoAheV4zypRb7/qW 2/9cCo1p+HlUfV80h11dhPBrpr5AxDlrcA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzzUcPtHJFYTO2FisIX8HtRYbPVY7SgPFHL1atBzk1FpW5Ue62DRierqA6+W/bhnSjUwFZJrQ== X-Received: by 2002:a37:a04e:: with SMTP id j75mr976161qke.98.1630547003923; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 18:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.86.240] (c-98-229-239-247.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [98.229.239.247]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 20sm382642qkn.31.2021.09.01.18.43.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 01 Sep 2021 18:43:23 -0700 (PDT) From: "Tim April" To: "Jay Daley" Cc: tools-discuss Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 21:43:22 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5673) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3318CCB9-0C79-47D4-A365-10AAAFE67160@ietf.org> References: <3318CCB9-0C79-47D4-A365-10AAAFE67160@ietf.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_210C7877-F828-459A-8C50-2040AA6BD263_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Zulip implementation Service Plan X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 01:43:30 -0000 --=_MailMate_210C7877-F828-459A-8C50-2040AA6BD263_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jay, In re-reading the document I have a few comments for further discussion: 1.2: Do we expect all users to understand what OIDC is? Could “Datatracker OIDC” be replaced with “Datatracker Single Sign-On”? 1.3: I would also suggest adding this to the end of the section. “#NOTEWELL will be a default stream for all users.” This can be configured through the organizational settings for the instance. 2.1: For the first bullet under the mailing list mirror note, I would replace “In this configuration they can choose not to subscribe to the list mirror.” With “In this configuration they can choose not to subscribe to the list mirror in zulip or to mute the stream them to view or search the mirrored messages without receiving notifications for them.” 3.1: It may also be worth noting that attachments will also be retained for some period of time. 3.1: It may be worth calling out the message edit time restriction, if enabled. In the tulip services that I host / operate, we have the edit timer set to 10 minutes just to limit the length of time that of the change to somewhere near the time the conversation happened. 3.1: As an operator, from time to time I get requests to delete messages, either because someone sends something sensitive to the service or they misspeak and may feel it is something which could have negative impact on others. It may be up to Jay, Lars and Counsel as to what policy / process could be used to delete a message, but I would suggest thinking a little about that before the switch announcement. 3.2: This section is very vague about under what circumstances DMs may be inspected. My instinct is to avoid anything which I do not expect to be public on the IETF zulip system with the wording of this section, but I feel like that remove some of the usefulness of the system. In the corporate space, there is usually a well defined policy which governs the ability for operators to access messages under three conditions: 1) Verified lawful request from an agency with jurisdiction (usually verified by counsel) 2) Explicit policy which defines the conditions under which access may be granted to a set of messages (Eg: HR dispute, discovery, harassment claims, etc). 3) Extraordinary conditions under which a quorum of some set of participants documents a need to access messages. Some of these policies also include criteria under which the parties to these messages will be informed that the message was retrieved. 4 - Other Integrations: Are additional integrations allowed to be deployed by IETF participants? Are there criteria to do so? Who needs to be contact/involved/informed to do something like that? Thanks! --tim On 1 Sep 2021, at 19:57, Jay Daley wrote: > Hi > > I’ve put together a Service Plan for our upcoming Zulip > implementation based on work by Tim April and had that reviewed and > revised by a number of people who were involved in the trial. Robert > is now happy for this to be shared for comment and any further > revisions. Please find the document at > > https://github.com/ietf-tools/zulip-implementation/blob/main/Service-Plan.md > > The aim to is sign this off at the next Tools meeting in two weeks > time. > > cheers > Jay > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --=_MailMate_210C7877-F828-459A-8C50-2040AA6BD263_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Jay,

In re-reading the document I have a few comments for furt= her discussion:

1.2: Do we expect all users to understand what OIDC is? C= ould =E2=80=9CDatatracker OIDC=E2=80=9D be replaced with =E2=80=9CDatatra= cker Single Sign-On=E2=80=9D?

1.3: I would also suggest adding this to the end of the s= ection. =E2=80=9C#NOTEWELL will be a default stream for all users.=E2=80=9D= This can be configured through the organizational settings for the insta= nce.

2.1: For the first bullet under the mailing list mirror n= ote, I would replace

=E2=80=9CIn this =
configuration they can choose not to subscribe to the list mirror.=E2=80=9D=

With

=E2=80=9CIn this =
configuration they can choose not to subscribe to the list mirror in zuli=
p or to mute the stream them to view or search the mirrored messages with=
out receiving notifications for them.=E2=80=9D

3.1: It may also be worth noting that attachments will al= so be retained for some period of time.

3.1: It may be worth calling out the message edit time re= striction, if enabled. In the tulip services that I host / operate, we ha= ve the edit timer set to 10 minutes just to limit the length of time that= of the change to somewhere near the time the conversation happened.

3.1: As an operator, from time to time I get requests to = delete messages, either because someone sends something sensitive to the = service or they misspeak and may feel it is something which could have ne= gative impact on others. It may be up to Jay, Lars and Counsel as to what= policy / process could be used to delete a message, but I would suggest = thinking a little about that before the switch announcement.

3.2: This section is very vague about under what circumst= ances DMs may be inspected. My instinct is to avoid anything which I do n= ot expect to be public on the IETF zulip system with the wording of this = section, but I feel like that remove some of the usefulness of the system= =2E In the corporate space, there is usually a well defined policy which = governs the ability for operators to access messages under three conditio= ns:

1) Verified lawfu=
l request from an agency with jurisdiction (usually verified by counsel)
2) Explicit policy which defines the conditions under which access may be=
 granted to a set of messages (Eg: HR dispute, discovery, harassment clai=
ms, etc).
3) Extraordinary conditions under which a quorum of some set of participa=
nts documents a need to access messages.

Some of these policies also include criteria under which = the parties to these messages will be informed that the message was retri= eved.

4 - Other Integrations: Are additional integrations allow= ed to be deployed by IETF participants? Are there criteria to do so? Who = needs to be contact/involved/informed to do something like that?

Thanks!

--tim

On 1 Sep 2021, at 19:57, Jay Daley wrote:

H= i

I=E2=80=99ve put together a Service Plan for our upcoming Zulip implement= ation based on work by Tim April and had that reviewed and revised by a n= umber of people who were involved in the trial. Robert is now happy for = this to be shared for comment and any further revisions. Please find the= document at

https://github.com/ietf-tools/zulip= -implementation/blob/main/Service-Plan.md

The aim to is sign this off at the next Tools meeting in two weeks time.<= br>
cheers
Jay

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

--=_MailMate_210C7877-F828-459A-8C50-2040AA6BD263_=-- From nobody Thu Sep 2 04:55:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE943A0815 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 04:55:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HWSlSkxtg7TD for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 04:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EA023A0814 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 04:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id g9so2000862ioq.11 for ; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 04:54:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3uReiKry6ycMko1hLItV5FFCXbxffqNJmw/WgCazC28=; b=ZbV3DXBP/ZKtLhUjaHI9MiS78U5/JJDnRL5xqDeQdyVTogD8fxxGGxqyszBGQNO/+d ZuQp7+czFFLnAtA2pXX89Z/zoPLke+5szF97jhks2PgfC32VjJY7nPjMLMZtdF0z9/m6 /akjsd9fcDuT6JtFpdNp85emsXcmX66rFA9aj+9DGa/d5xtU8LWEYFWsoZZF0qGMyS33 ZOdXXgUQ0A27xrdP+vqX8QzCnIuuGZYziNP1lI1hgJLpiGmCfOUGS6h8X3sfVpX52eZK fkL31fk3vEuqTTeQMOCdRJM5bVjeez9hTTvVv6Kus9bWLHczaYr84KcOkJjtKDeqp+lN 4HsA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3uReiKry6ycMko1hLItV5FFCXbxffqNJmw/WgCazC28=; b=K9+u4hWrdNs9yT6wDSeMETbdPOheUNMv34jDyrGcY3El50N42DkC9QsSn+pEYQ7M6/ EUN9jl9DP4F99PH428A7KE/SOg9lFDnP2K1oIwMQiNEVpydTxJrOg8w8Ydhzg7njGXlV umUyPWsbSQgzrkJRt2ovN5hbv3FkQqm1NQ/u6olvtxXQXN2DZAMqc3BecEc1/ejKZ8cp +heCRU4X0CcuL/Y6l6tSGRzAgjUjm8oMuSVaSHIxMkeim0Z7fLs+wNQm5C70oTmcnU/i Rf2CqsDFzgiEKC3cz9VaovtZXF+lVmyHNaNlVDBZptcMOYx5yFpgekpXFvtqxKAo23iL kWVw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531TMaNDbONxCCiTE9i2fNdA9M6l0XsbgiO4pV6pVUU4XiAcQOHi 39aoli0ahCpJ63R09xK1gg8wJqO8L7KAGWatNQc94/+q8lA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzwtmHywr4nefJ6Vp7lK4ObLFvQJYcU8gSgKq3Ttm+IbEte6ZLAGDr+Wo4E8n3Wd4Eh3c4xS+2oo2xGNOyyX5M= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:5911:: with SMTP id n17mr2371076iob.180.1630583692772; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 04:54:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <65686008-0EB5-4765-B20F-C3E038C5EF28@bluepopcorn.net> In-Reply-To: <65686008-0EB5-4765-B20F-C3E038C5EF28@bluepopcorn.net> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 07:54:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jim Fenton Cc: Tools Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c8cc4705cb01d940" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Session Request notification email X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 11:55:01 -0000 --000000000000c8cc4705cb01d940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim, This is a known bug - Robert recently sent an email about it to the WG chairs list, see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/wgchairs/xNVLdd6FlSmlfxinfuJYuuZXd1U/ . Cheers, Andy On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 3:09 PM Jim Fenton wrote: > After scheduling a WG session just now, I noticed that the =E2=80=9CConfl= icts to > Avoid=E2=80=9D section was blank even though I had listed several conflic= ts (both > chair and technology conflicts). Did this get lost from the notification > message somehow? If so, does that notification come from the datatracker = or > from AMS? If the former, I can open a ticket on that, but I=E2=80=99m not= sure > where the dividing line is. > > -Jim > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000c8cc4705cb01d940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jim,

This is a known bug - Robert recen= tly sent an email about it to the WG chairs list, see=C2=A0htt= ps://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/wgchairs/xNVLdd6FlSmlfxinfuJYuuZXd1U/ .



=
After scheduling a WG ses= sion just now, I noticed that the =E2=80=9CConflicts to Avoid=E2=80=9D sect= ion was blank even though I had listed several conflicts (both chair and te= chnology conflicts). Did this get lost from the notification message someho= w? If so, does that notification come from the datatracker or from AMS? If = the former, I can open a ticket on that, but I=E2=80=99m not sure where the= dividing line is.

-Jim

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--000000000000c8cc4705cb01d940-- From nobody Thu Sep 2 04:57:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB08C3A0878 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 04:57:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m6TYqhcVH-Iz for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 04:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3F8C3A0868 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 04:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id b7so2034105iob.4 for ; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 04:57:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=F0QKXWor7AwApn1Moauk063HQEbX2UK73wcABYftybo=; b=kG0qHSHk7+ClPLvUUyKSeyG/ZIyYZhWNcAoXizeIPUeQvB471PontgpNqqgDigia2/ qntgYGr1sst/0SDeJ4PgjKIWv6nEXjieG+AoikvbA2Y/aRV5Y3hWK9NB3GXQSudTMawX bCOuUIqMWm9vH5fbfQ/MedQoF78fMQhlnzBmnqnMNliakwTEdIr428qwL+oMe6y3fILk fD2TGZqX5s3dOmuwJ3y6iuwemPPiipzwxCnxH6xtP86HeVeThfm1V7FVuoT/ZFbzY3nH Swttlm3dVi+zbXz8f8BO75e7eDP6xpi26n4Y2sCkCVwzvKO0mIKs4rnW8RZigaZwolLE Lx/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=F0QKXWor7AwApn1Moauk063HQEbX2UK73wcABYftybo=; b=I19ImdvDV2Gle1pQhNpU4e5WE+4T43+BRGabeYK6i3dKyiVnxhKfnLinikRUZtL5vo Djmb8wcXZQUhysnwfdWj6kAYuue0aUBLR4d+w9DpHn2f7nNWqyhfumnbNtP2kIdCscPQ 5g4rSvVdnGCm5eUxALmx3vbnhRlZII+bggYKXCTe5sw58+fOgC1QDHFA44KuZJ957bXd maU8pEQmHULzhNePv3kwvzhjNxvHRRd9je3xDNaHhFmSoJNL5hFyuujo7Ft6ID8xEjWR o9PzQ8CVczxUFPVv9eRJfUAwS2MqEjz4TheowepG02uSVBquix9ALg+cZPVSvWcFEADY i/HA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ye4sWXjOpNQP5EUxNmF3WIN7iYvmPHDzzWkF2XN1N51AZ3SK8 texDtntw1qre3Tik9u2zI1jmIEC1OYPE3meGwIOGpp99 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw2vXsFmQTaKUJz7S2p4TAEz216CcNDqTFcnvoYHvJmEfkYhVehhx6aMZjLZGj6ydbZZKgDZRBJEqX3B3QRm2o= X-Received: by 2002:a02:bb16:: with SMTP id y22mr2479876jan.129.1630583840202; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 04:57:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <11B247A6-673F-4EF8-9C2C-F1ECD12C35B9@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <11B247A6-673F-4EF8-9C2C-F1ECD12C35B9@akamai.com> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 07:57:04 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Tools Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009264c605cb01e2e5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] where to make suggestions for rfc-editor.org pages? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 11:57:28 -0000 --0000000000009264c605cb01e2e5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rich, I would suggest an email to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Cheers, Andy On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 4:14 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > You know what would be very cool? When you see the =E2=80=9CObsoletes=E2= =80=9D =E2=80=9CUpdated > by=E2=80=9D tags on an rfc-editor.org info page, it would be great if a t= ooltip > would appear with the RFC title if you hovered over one of those referenc= es. > > > > Where/who should I suggest this coolness to? > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --0000000000009264c605cb01e2e5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rich,

I would suggest an email to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org.

Cheers,
Andy


<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Wed, Sep= 1, 2021 at 4:14 PM Salz, Rich <rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

You know what would b= e very cool?=C2=A0 When you see the =E2=80=9CObsoletes=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9CUp= dated by=E2=80=9D tags on an rfc-editor.org info page, it would be great if a tooltip would ap= pear with the RFC title if you hovered over one of those references.

=C2=A0<= /span>

Where/who should I su= ggest this coolness to?

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--0000000000009264c605cb01e2e5-- From nobody Thu Sep 2 11:35:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 798263A1B92 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 11:35:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=bluepopcorn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yWLkgEIfF6ag for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 11:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from v2.bluepopcorn.net (v2.bluepopcorn.net [IPv6:2607:f2f8:a994::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F16CE3A1B90 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 11:34:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bluepopcorn.net; s=supersize; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Date:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=oMXmigV1eD4fXoybT9upxnyEjUDAaRUVbmUDzH7XzhM=; b=CtaqOXHnEeIX2HUEZEPvrRsCXb ZgLLCwHX38bl+Wqld12eTLJ/Qkw+5I/NtijjbG7GaDa9gW5I/8EFAIJgkh82Cw2HThQKoDKGAmHxL d4Zxjl4oU8K5T8J3ySmIfx9ExUbOq5j5aRxq3eVDLu8IV2jQC9ntnp744Wvig/hOBQw8=; Received: from [2601:647:4400:1261:407e:ba0d:5a39:be3f] (helo=[10.10.20.144]) by v2.bluepopcorn.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mLrY2-0005Dw-G5; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 11:34:51 -0700 From: Jim Fenton To: "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: Tools Discussion Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 11:34:49 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5820) Message-ID: <3AE282A8-4AAA-44C9-8D0F-7066A2146E47@bluepopcorn.net> In-Reply-To: References: <65686008-0EB5-4765-B20F-C3E038C5EF28@bluepopcorn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Session Request notification email X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 18:35:02 -0000 On 2 Sep 2021, at 4:54, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Jim, > > This is a known bug - Robert recently sent an email about it to the WG > chairs list, see > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/wgchairs/xNVLdd6FlSmlfxinfuJYuuZXd1U/ > . > > Cheers, > Andy Thanks, Andy. I looked around a bit for something like that but didn’t find it. -Jim > On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 3:09 PM Jim Fenton wrote: > >> After scheduling a WG session just now, I noticed that the “Conflicts to >> Avoid” section was blank even though I had listed several conflicts (both >> chair and technology conflicts). Did this get lost from the notification >> message somehow? If so, does that notification come from the datatracker or >> from AMS? If the former, I can open a ticket on that, but I’m not sure >> where the dividing line is. >> >> -Jim >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> From nobody Fri Sep 3 12:09:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B123A295C for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 11:57:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, 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2021 14:18:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zkl3fRDfDpi2; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 14:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 793603A2F31; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 14:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05FAF548015; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:18:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id E08754400EF; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:18:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:18:08 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Tom Pusateri Cc: ietf-privacy@ietf.org, Tools Discussion Message-ID: <20210903211808.GD24866@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20210827145339.GS50345@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20210827145339.GS50345@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Upcoming end of support for the IETFers app X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 21:18:27 -0000 Darn, messed up joke by typo, correct: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4041.txt Section 2.2 On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 04:53:39PM +0200, Toerless Eckert wrote: > To close on a lighter note: I was yesterday just randomnly stumbling across > RFC4101 again and found particularily section 2.2 to be strikingly current. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 09:16:28PM -0400, Tom Pusateri wrote: > > FYI, > > > > Given the change of position with Apple’s privacy directions, I no longer wish to continue development of the IETFers app on Apple platforms. After their strong privacy stance for many years, this feels like a betrayal to me. > > > > I understand that some will think this is overblown or that maybe I want inappropriate material on my device. I can assure you that this is not the case. I detest the exploitation of minors and adults on the internet. > > > > But a technology that is developed for service A will eventually be used for services B & C & D. Services B & C & D may not be made public but they will exist and Apple has shown their willingness to cross the line in public which makes me think they probably have already crossed the line in private too. But I don’t mean to drag anyone else into this part of the discussion or convince anyone about my beliefs. That is not the point of this note. Please don’t try to argue with me that what Apple is doing is ok. > > > > The IETFers app will continue to work for future meetings as long as nothing in the API changes on which it depends. I have no control over that and I won’t go digging through the source code to try and figure out what busted. > > > > I am aware of another timezone bug that surfaced during this last online meeting. I plan to fix this bug and make one last dot release before the next meeting. > > > > I wanted to make this decision public so other plans can be made if needed. This is the real purpose of this note. > > > > The next obvious question is will I be working on an Android version instead? I will answer this by saying the privacy problems on Android platforms are far worse. > > > > For a stroll down memory lane, the IETFers app was first released 10 years ago in July, 2011. It was a fun project and I hope people benefited from it (and continue to do so). I’ll continue to hang out on this list and contribute where I can but just not on the Apple app. > > > > Thanks, > > Tom > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Fri Sep 3 15:11:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864583A30D2 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 15:11:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_FAIL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PWLf2YJdOvhS for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 15:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:45:216:3eff:fe7f:7abd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E68E93A30D0 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 15:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd] (unknown [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F69EAE536; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 00:11:43 +0200 (CEST) To: Greg M , Robert Sparks Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss References: From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 15:11:40 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 22:11:55 -0000 On 9/3/21 11:57 AM, Greg M wrote: > Thanks kindly for responses. > >>> Also, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? > Perhaps not as important as simply defining, somewhere logical on the IETF site, the meaning of "bis" as used. https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tao-discuss > > Greg McPherran > > ________________________________ > From: Robert Sparks > Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:01 PM > To: Marc Petit-Huguenin > Cc: Brian E Carpenter ; Carsten Bormann ; gmcpherran@outlook.com ; tools-discuss > Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" > > This is the updates conversation wearing a different skin. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Sep 1, 2021, at 6:35 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: >> >> Also, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? So the draft that preceded RFC 8489 should have been rfc5389ter, but that still does not seem right. rfc3489ter? >> >> On 9/1/21 4:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there anyway.) >>> The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject "Re: 1602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed also knew how the CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that StackOverflow debate, this is not exactly new terminology. >>> Also, https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.merriam-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fbis&data=04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208d96da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124901271%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=FtDn0DwLIfh7Xk6MzWRh9z8PDeCIDNtZMoOTsOM1kQI%3D&reserved=0 . Does the IETF web site really need to replace a dictionary? >>> Regards >>> Brian Carpenter >>> On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>> Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an IETF idiosyncrasy that one needs to learn about. >>>> >>>> If we are not talking about US export controls, “bis” is used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN would use “a”. >>>> So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets “3a" in Germany and "3 bis" in France. >>>> >>>> In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (“recommendations”), bis, ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e.g. V.42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that. >>>> >>>> Building a “3 bis” house doesn’t mean you demolish “3”; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42. >>>> >>>> How “bis” got the idiosyncratic “replacement version of” meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that was simply trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCITT habit. >>>> >>>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there anyway.) >>>> >>>> Grüße, Carsten >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Moving this to tools-discuss. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >>>>> Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" >>>>> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 >>>>> From: Greg M >>>>> To: datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an obscure >>> term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation of "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in the "About" page. >>>>> >>>>> Example of public "bis" confusion: >>>>> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow >>>>> >>>>> Thank You for the work that you do. >>>>> >>>>> Greg McPherran >>>>> Siteware.org >>>>> >> >> >> -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug From nobody Fri Sep 3 20:26:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F2553A1589 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:26:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=sU6uObhR; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=R5yV+sHq Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AUoMUhXbKTZx for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 599393A1587 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 71552 invoked from network); 4 Sep 2021 03:26:37 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=1177d.6132e76d.k2109; bh=xXV4s/uQ42vU8/Mbvs76ZpkdfihFJd8hyT4YaHS3qlw=; b=sU6uObhR5/LOQtTAd1cjlnYsbLJB9aHlMEzdE3GM9bW1FUvvYqeCHu0utWoNxDdfLj6QFOsFoIvihjP+DvgCMbZ0+D+6jY2sonmbOGl3XBYdgVyLBZ/rqgyY83Y69PwAYGAmhgLMPPvGWxRGyZS7XrnH2GUxnvZ0+Q4ng1TQopp0uw01xc/ZMJ+IpYSO3UiHgn4fmOyK+1T1oDvbS18fFcCsMkCUL6CEfEXOSgEEo8KJ0ylINGk2u3BqPrsCW9OPIfPY3KIe2ITerElJKN0pz/0vhMH7CpC/RT4yozmqX8WOKReuM2I9KO6F7WFL3jgOtcHwyYx3nyRO0QLkBQYLuA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=1177d.6132e76d.k2109; bh=xXV4s/uQ42vU8/Mbvs76ZpkdfihFJd8hyT4YaHS3qlw=; b=R5yV+sHqmIMemX1CVyqWST7Oqqs6kby7YAKRKPesNwo98gxLx/DW6oe4pR5HW3hsrhhMe7k19aLPWT9GPBvQUblEjO2qXDATzgYBib/LVkVzC2yqQObgo+395gwxxTePnSaxzNZAMy95XJ3mpN3h8Amo68k+DMyEp0zfZkb8zmLr9YbrQece1jnk1/+jBVtNwJCS8wPci8Tq/GDIAcPiZDnbzADTKTKT++UVhmBgjd8qSa7HNPooEfC6GJqDEVWTmI7W3f7h/qq8KKxWIZ6XHGlTEQSIuiJDX2V41dMa7+RGOF5edWLgAh57pRIQYYQjxlf7aULHeNqJwC2Mf6sAUw== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 04 Sep 2021 03:26:37 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id C8249276564E; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:26:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: 3 Sep 2021 23:26:36 -0400 Message-Id: <20210904032636.C8249276564E@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] The Tao explains "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 03:26:47 -0000 It appears that Marc Petit-Huguenin said: >> Perhaps not as important as simply defining, somewhere logical on the IETF site, the meaning of "bis" as used. https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/tao/ Section 6.3 says: There are some informal rules for Internet-Draft naming that have evolved over the years. Internet-Drafts that revise existing RFCs often have draft names with "bis" in them, meaning "again" or "twice"; for example, a draft might be called "draft-someone-rfc2345bis-00.txt". From nobody Fri Sep 3 22:46:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5693A1A7A for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:46:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ixe74x29PowM for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CFCC3A1A7C for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51AA246FDBEB; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:45:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q8fhk4--77Mb; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 93D2946FDBE5; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-950D360F-2429-46DF-8B52-F47A6E43C311 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Cc: Robert Sparks , Marc Petit-Huguenin , Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 17:45:44 +1200 Message-Id: <0859FB3B-6893-4867-813C-87A3C14F6D4D@ietf.org> References: To: Greg M X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18G82) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 05:46:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail-950D360F-2429-46DF-8B52-F47A6E43C311 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 4/09/2021, at 7:09 AM, Greg M wrote: > =EF=BB=BF > Thanks kindly for responses.=20 >=20 > >> =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? > Perhaps not as important as simply defining, somewhere logical on the IETF= site, the meaning of "bis" as used. Easy enough to do. We will look at it this week. =20 Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director=20 exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > Greg McPherran >=20 > From: Robert Sparks > Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:01 PM > To: Marc Petit-Huguenin > Cc: Brian E Carpenter ; Carsten Bormann ; gmcpherran@outlook.com ; tools-discuss > Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" > =20 > This is the updates conversation wearing a different skin.=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > > On Sep 1, 2021, at 6:35 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: > >=20 > > =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? So the draft tha= t preceded RFC 8489 should have been rfc5389ter, but that still does not see= m right. rfc3489ter? > >=20 > > On 9/1/21 4:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there a= nyway.) > >> The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject "Re:= 1602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed also knew how t= he CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that StackOverflow debat= e, this is not exactly new terminology. > >> Also, https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%= 2Fwww.merriam-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fbis&data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fce= e38404dca45b208d96da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63766= 1377124901271%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLC= JBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DFtDn0DwLIfh7Xk6MzWRh9z8PDeCI= DNtZMoOTsOM1kQI%3D&reserved=3D0 . Does the IETF web site really need to r= eplace a dictionary? > >> Regards > >> Brian Carpenter > >> On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote: > >>> Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an IETF idi= osyncrasy that one needs to learn about. > >>>=20 > >>> If we are not talking about US export controls, =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D i= s used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN would u= se =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D. > >>> So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets =E2=80=9C3a" in Germa= ny and "3 bis" in France. > >>>=20 > >>> In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (=E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80=9D), bi= s, ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e.g. V= .42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that. > >>>=20 > >>> Building a =E2=80=9C3 bis=E2=80=9D house doesn=E2=80=99t mean you demo= lish =E2=80=9C3=E2=80=9D; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42. > >>>=20 > >>> How =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D got the idiosyncratic =E2=80=9Creplacement v= ersion of=E2=80=9D meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that was simp= ly trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCITT habit. > >>>=20 > >>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there a= nyway.) > >>>=20 > >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>>> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks wrote:= > >>>>=20 > >>>> Moving this to tools-discuss. > >>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- > >>>> Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" > >>>> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 > >>>> From: Greg M > >>>> To: datatracker-project@ietf.org > >>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect detail= ed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an obscure > >> term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation of= "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in th= e "About" page. > >>>>=20 > >>>> Example of public "bis" confusion: > >>>> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow > >>>>=20 > >>>> Thank You for the work that you do. > >>>>=20 > >>>> Greg McPherran > >>>> Siteware.org > >>>>=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > Marc Petit-Huguenin > > Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org > > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2= Fmarc.petit-huguenin.org%2F&data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208d9= 6da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124906249%7CU= nknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJ= XVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DR6G5I%2F0Q6srzoSzcHWUxK104WzpG5duOc%2BiOWgU41= 3Y%3D&reserved=3D0 > > Profile: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2= F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fpetithug&data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dc= a45b208d96da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6376613771249= 06249%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik= 1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DI2Eq8M9MP48toludXRpgn6XggizUSt2z08oM= 9fNOi6g%3D&reserved=3D0 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org= > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/tools-discuss --Apple-Mail-950D360F-2429-46DF-8B52-F47A6E43C311 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


<= blockquote type=3D"cite">On 4/09/2021, at 7:09 AM, Greg M <GMcPherran@out= look.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
> =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter?
Perhaps not as important as simply defining, somewhere logical on the IETF s= ite, the meaning of "bis" as used.

Easy enough to do.  We will look at it this week.  = ;

Jay

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive D= irector 
exec-director@ietf.org


Greg McPherran


From: Robert Sparks <rjspa= rks@nostrum.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:01 PM
To: Marc Petit-Huguenin <marc@petit-huguenin.org>
Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Carsten Bo= rmann <cabo@tzi.org>; gmcpherran@outlook.com <gmcpherran@outlook.co= m>; tools-discuss <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis"
 
=
This is the updates conversation wearing a differen= t skin.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 1, 2021, at 6:35 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin <marc@petit-huguenin= .org> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter?  So the dra= ft that preceded RFC 8489 should have been rfc5389ter, but that still does n= ot seem right.  rfc3489ter?
>
> On 9/1/21 4:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask t= here anyway.)
>> The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject "= Re: 1602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed also knew ho= w the CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that StackOverflow de= bate, this is not exactly new terminology.
>> Also, https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.merri= am-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fbis&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404d= ca45b208d96da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124= 901271%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I= k1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=3DFtDn0DwLIfh7Xk6MzWRh9z8PDeCIDNt= ZMoOTsOM1kQI%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 . Does the IETF web site really need to replace a dictionary?
>> Regards
>>    Brian Carpenter
>> On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>> Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an I= ETF idiosyncrasy that one needs to learn about.
>>>
>>> If we are not talking about US export controls, =E2=80=9Cbis=E2= =80=9D is used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN= would use =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D.
>>> So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets =E2=80=9C3a" i= n Germany and "3 bis" in France.
>>>
>>> In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (=E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80=9D= ), bis, ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e= .g. V.42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that.
>>>
>>> Building a =E2=80=9C3 bis=E2=80=9D house doesn=E2=80=99t mean y= ou demolish =E2=80=9C3=E2=80=9D; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42.
>>>
>>> How =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D got the idiosyncratic =E2=80=9Creplac= ement version of=E2=80=9D meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that w= as simply trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCITT h= abit.
>>>
>>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask t= here anyway.)
>>>
>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostru= m.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Moving this to tools-discuss.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>>> Subject:    [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"b= is"
>>>> Date:    Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000
= >>>> From:    Greg M <GMcPherran@outlook.com&g= t;
>>>> To:    datatracker-project@ietf.org <data= tracker-project@ietf.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to exp= ect detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an= obscure
>> term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanatio= n of "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. i= n the "About" page.
>>>>
>>>> Example of public "bis" confusion:
>>>> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow
>>>>
>>>> Thank You for the work that you do.
>>>>
>>>> Greg McPherran
>>>> Siteware.org
>>>>
>
>
>
> --
> Marc Petit-Huguenin
> Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org
> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fmarc.peti= t-huguenin.org%2F&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208d96da4dc= 4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124906249%7CUnknown= %7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6M= n0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=3DR6G5I%2F0Q6srzoSzcHWUxK104WzpG5duOc%2BiOWgU413Y= %3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> Profile: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.linke= din.com%2Fin%2Fpetithug&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208d9= 6da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124906249%7CU= nknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJ= XVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=3DI2Eq8M9MP48toludXRpgn6XggizUSt2z08oM9fNOi= 6g%3D&amp;reserved=3D0

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* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.= org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.o= rg
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
= --Apple-Mail-950D360F-2429-46DF-8B52-F47A6E43C311-- From nobody Sat Sep 4 09:23:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132DF3A1BF0 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 09:23:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FIFzhNYfSA71 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 09:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E58B3A1C01 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 09:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H20Ml0hXfz2xZr; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 18:23:31 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 652465410.595134-1fc47b9677b097432c27db27f8c94f7e Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 18:23:30 +0200 Message-Id: <3D2C4DEE-2991-4539-B011-B1FFEE4530BE@tzi.org> To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Mining WG notes X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 16:23:43 -0000 In an AD review, a simple question came up: =E2=80=9CHas the WG discussed X?=E2=80=9D=20 Unfortunately, none of us remembers, because X seems to come up so often = for different documents that it is hard to keep these discussions apart. Theoretically, I should be able to find the answer from the notes of the = various WG meetings (at an IETF meeting or as an interim). How do I do = this? Of course, I could manually fetch the minutes of approximately 36 = meetings (plus some safety) that have happened since we started the = discussion of this document, and then start to apply some laptop-local = searching on these. Is there an rsync target I could use to get those = (all?) minutes? https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/past is almost useful as a starting = point, except that it points to meeting materials and not proceedings = (and then there is the notorious difficulty of extracting the current = version of the notes), except for IETF meetings, where one has to click = through the meeting agenda to find the CoRE meetings. The mailing list = is sometimes useful, but does not contain (the final version of) the = meeting minutes. There must be a better way to do this. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Sep 4 10:30:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D47C3A1042 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:29:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s9puO2NhkMl9 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A5E03A103F for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 184HTpS1018246 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 12:29:52 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1630776592; bh=QP3UI+cBUhB6Wa8N1zIdzcKGZD2J68cxDtcolsNIWQ8=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Cq0O+kaDkP7k478AZhObgLT7BCM2N3EOX+2bzrY+6nD0xvimKYKwvmF7REoz67EaD yTCyc76+nPGmkGt1lsUzswsuzV0KLu0/C+mMSRZhAtfE6E2pqXWe7srUVT5c7a5ouS D7XV08Gq1zx3thGdbPR728ApO3+JqHfqAflIR/VA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <3D2C4DEE-2991-4539-B011-B1FFEE4530BE@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <707d3f74-9f5e-5055-550e-247ea0c0210b@nostrum.com> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 12:29:46 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3D2C4DEE-2991-4539-B011-B1FFEE4530BE@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mining WG notes X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 17:30:00 -0000 It's a bit of soup. You can use the api to strategically identify the minutes you want to find and pull the files. The rsync endpoint you are looking for is at rsync.ietf.org::proceedings You might find things like rsync.ietf.org::proceedings/111/minutes/ useful. As you see, the files are in many, many formats, including pdf. The hunt will not necessarily be as easy as grep. I wonder if we're close to the point where we can say "Keep your agendas and minutes going forward in markdown"? RjS On 9/4/21 11:23 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > In an AD review, a simple question came up: > “Has the WG discussed X?” > > Unfortunately, none of us remembers, because X seems to come up so often for different documents that it is hard to keep these discussions apart. > > Theoretically, I should be able to find the answer from the notes of the various WG meetings (at an IETF meeting or as an interim). How do I do this? > Of course, I could manually fetch the minutes of approximately 36 meetings (plus some safety) that have happened since we started the discussion of this document, and then start to apply some laptop-local searching on these. Is there an rsync target I could use to get those (all?) minutes? > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/past is almost useful as a starting point, except that it points to meeting materials and not proceedings (and then there is the notorious difficulty of extracting the current version of the notes), except for IETF meetings, where one has to click through the meeting agenda to find the CoRE meetings. The mailing list is sometimes useful, but does not contain (the final version of) the meeting minutes. > > There must be a better way to do this. > > Grüße, Carsten > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Sat Sep 4 10:36:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 010133A1E13 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:36:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fNhy7yyJ7IWF for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75E5C3A1E0F for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id bq28so4820188lfb.7 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 10:36:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Nwajx9SRx88Gmh4xWp0+Y1dmJcnWS1eHDK/YV1h4CKE=; b=bdP0O75QHdrVwtpxiGMcCVqPvZB5YZ80Q9l5oTZX0hGOSGggu7Pr7xBsYxFj0tCFe9 LTZJd08lSbsHpPabp89Dq5wGJtv8DOmgBdyucqD0bXGoW49cnPynw3yVe1ZR8Z+vKCDO iaBZahhbZeWgeUWeECH2naZqIu4Po6tQSYcN8b4pWPQW5V6I8TRo95nRyMFPgVVVU2ve fHnx9lmQz7RoruG7U07E1kl9AoLxwrN5owccfyu2kSCub/qtMBRKy5fdwGMCtmWMHbnr AbCmyUJ1V4N4Cf7qs1osfjfbL+KLufDfkd3hiDDa/YPvEs2kLQPgSlGVlcFcs8k9s/Oo rCQQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Nwajx9SRx88Gmh4xWp0+Y1dmJcnWS1eHDK/YV1h4CKE=; b=MoqSEJ+idozk31Hbz2WyB73TjSsJbKG/M0KeTH82yO66Izaeq5ByWuRh20fw4MooGS jgs4x9Yg6o7IrRV1Mvm6fjhLMoi5U30fgonnthS9sSShyuWl7U8s0TXup38zH07xf0oW DV9CACawdvNK2TN4SyxxQe3PyuuTXNVts4pMr+rx6fX+P2rX7xEtfOqvmc0Nyu557Pbe JMHbI2bLOOd4riVc3xX9lAg2J/VxLviDOkxbLadjvBP74olL0sWfqo1RDqX+xQhA6NFk bYTJpfDw/4xO2zlei0ciChcAXErhzE/2++EWd9wflCj3i4z3pc+bBZjKX4R2Gm+u2rDw aD4w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531aPx5jO1stWMDH/roKMP6LILROsTCymDN+HiEV+PhSi2s/cuHF WilPWi5mijkz8XQtgUAJOh+YF2NyCeF7fNIiVHOEx1/nKbc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy+5L+y5Y+q0F0rE4JjK4KMFVEWQJ1w/QsljYgCPhOCWqMKYnajZRpRpfC5OMNMdvVL476StadDqnGeQnc9bNc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:130f:: with SMTP id x15mr3664459lfu.571.1630776958818; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 10:35:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D2C4DEE-2991-4539-B011-B1FFEE4530BE@tzi.org> <707d3f74-9f5e-5055-550e-247ea0c0210b@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <707d3f74-9f5e-5055-550e-247ea0c0210b@nostrum.com> From: Tim Wicinski Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 13:35:47 -0400 Message-ID: To: Robert Sparks Cc: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000056a0ef05cb2ed9a0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mining WG notes X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 17:36:07 -0000 --00000000000056a0ef05cb2ed9a0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:30 PM Robert Sparks wrote: > It's a bit of soup. > > You can use the api to strategically identify the minutes you want to > find and pull the files. > > The rsync endpoint you are looking for is at rsync.ietf.org::proceedings > > You might find things like rsync.ietf.org::proceedings/111/minutes/ > useful. > > As you see, the files are in many, many formats, including pdf. The hunt > will not necessarily be as easy as grep. > > I wonder if we're close to the point where we can say "Keep your agendas > and minutes going forward in markdown"? > > RjS > > +1 on our Markdown overlords. and offer different output formats via the API? as much as I have long loved my rsync, I feel we are reaching that tipping point of delivering everything via API. tim --00000000000056a0ef05cb2ed9a0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:30 PM Robert Sparks = <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wr= ote:
It's a = bit of soup.

You can use the api to strategically identify the minutes you want to
find and pull the files.

The rsync endpoint you are looking for is at rsync.ietf.org::proceedings
You might find things like rsync.ietf.org::proceedings/111/minutes/ useful.=

As you see, the files are in many, many formats, including pdf. The hunt will not necessarily be as easy as grep.

I wonder if we're close to the point where we can say "Keep your a= gendas
and minutes going forward in markdown"?

RjS


+1 on our Markdown overlords.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">and offer diffe= rent output formats via the API?

as much as I have long loved my rsync, I fee= l we are reaching
that tipping point of delivering everything via API.=C2=A0=C2= =A0

<= /div>
tim
=

--00000000000056a0ef05cb2ed9a0-- From nobody Sat Sep 4 10:41:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 236E13A1E48 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:41:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mail.udp.cl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BalD_pF2qelq for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x529.google.com (mail-ed1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3D063A1E3E for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x529.google.com with SMTP id j13so3373848edv.13 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 10:40:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mail.udp.cl; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qYQPc2X8nMuI+fRSIm+BkMfOxFkrgN1ksNRqnfVeDo8=; b=ZPahtCv2ZsJRa/uxZcAStYbQfYZj3tFRR2le8aleDhAyOb/AVoMkGvY3PFNTppMmP/ x54JiDLKSRuviFxVh9kynsVGXvHJiFnYTY3/W8MRqDT93+KgQ3Mz48UlwoGsPg+s6nhU Kdsew70sbz7E9o9JXbQ+fLlAUctfuqZWew1fkNMyrMAhkN72bO+09oyR79aWX7ieUtVP q5DAnc4YayT9fu5KKs0Zv5UvRlZHAe8mYathwv5KBGmabcRKcAfjgjOdM/aciGUZf//g 6zAIEfxD7Yj5f43eGUwdDFlXEmPyigl98sexM8BbuDT3vfmiCuLyDHSa+ECb8ZpcqqYQ 6mQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qYQPc2X8nMuI+fRSIm+BkMfOxFkrgN1ksNRqnfVeDo8=; b=QLfRKkIFSW9fmI8rtMXrK8YLdbFVsynudl0mR6nh7Vut4/iaNSss/4vNEP73LA9qDr VjhzeeV7XqFk/MDsLfmT6CzxtWmGUsDoF3M5pIOJF1+z6C8gpAvdqMj94Od93F/e6K4v /b5kXzVFWBQsTq6Fwk2uesr3YEeffCjYQIQm5Lqdvl/Ts75yQyVpL2DhsXZIhtM14vnc CldVKBs6zXStRHJTO7g35Gj/KdeyPnpbcOA7Ijn04AChz6E62654oPqV3+ejV5uy2lsg 1p/beaaObPDnaCYWVxbAda4W0OTUJuL2Xuqiw/ZcV2T7R2qCD6tXOAwXdlHGd2GmZfKq PLww== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533q1Bom+SYG7OZMUSUytzBQ2wLWna+Yd7x4mVtHFVxGZTcmSRy8 PFyw4os9whE1sSQTnKNOIMNEb+V3ief4uEGX4nB2bQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzfUeBjRUVKY50XPk787wO1fDySNuSz1FshStb/geVYtMxw8JLYmvgx5Z6l8XAuJsWlTYCsiJisvsb/SPwbaQc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:b47:: with SMTP id bx7mr5326831edb.319.1630777251629; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 10:40:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D2C4DEE-2991-4539-B011-B1FFEE4530BE@tzi.org> <707d3f74-9f5e-5055-550e-247ea0c0210b@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: From: "Prof. Diego Dujovne" Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 13:40:05 -0400 Message-ID: To: Tim Wicinski Cc: Robert Sparks , Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ca9aa105cb2eea20" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mining WG notes X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 17:41:00 -0000 --000000000000ca9aa105cb2eea20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi. Wouldn't it be nice to have the discussion in a kind of forum or a discussion thread associated directly to the draft, instead of going to the E-mail? Thanks. Regards, Diego Dujovne El s=C3=A1b., 4 de septiembre de 2021 13:36, Tim Wicinski escribi=C3=B3: > > > On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:30 PM Robert Sparks wrote= : > >> It's a bit of soup. >> >> You can use the api to strategically identify the minutes you want to >> find and pull the files. >> >> The rsync endpoint you are looking for is at rsync.ietf.org::proceedings >> >> You might find things like rsync.ietf.org::proceedings/111/minutes/ >> useful. >> >> As you see, the files are in many, many formats, including pdf. The hunt >> will not necessarily be as easy as grep. >> >> I wonder if we're close to the point where we can say "Keep your agendas >> and minutes going forward in markdown"? >> >> RjS >> >> > +1 on our Markdown overlords. > > and offer different output formats via the API? > > as much as I have long loved my rsync, I feel we are reaching > that tipping point of delivering everything via API. > > tim > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000ca9aa105cb2eea20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi.=C2=A0
Wouldn't it be nice to hav= e the discussion in a kind of forum or a discussion thread associated direc= tly to the draft, instead of going to the E-mail?
Th= anks.
Regards,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Diego Dujovne

El s=C3=A1b., = 4 de septiembre de 2021 13:36, Tim Wicinski <tjw.ietf@gmail.com> escribi=C3=B3:


On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:30= PM Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:
It's a bit of soup.

You can use the api to strategically identify the minutes you want to
find and pull the files.

The rsync endpoint you are looking for is at rsync.ietf.org::proceedings
You might find things like rsync.ietf.org::proceedings/111/minutes/ useful.=

As you see, the files are in many, many formats, including pdf. The hunt will not necessarily be as easy as grep.

I wonder if we're close to the point where we can say "Keep your a= gendas
and minutes going forward in markdown"?

RjS


+1 on our Markdown overlords.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">and offer diffe= rent output formats via the API?

as much as I have long loved my rsync, I fee= l we are reaching
that tipping point of delivering everything via API.=C2=A0=C2= =A0

<= /div>
tim
=

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--000000000000ca9aa105cb2eea20-- From nobody Sun Sep 5 09:05:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02B3A3A00AE for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:05:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i-H6xnMfcGYM for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 123083A0068 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H2bwW0ky3z2xJh; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:05:31 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <707d3f74-9f5e-5055-550e-247ea0c0210b@nostrum.com> Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:05:30 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 652550730.4613889-44b41f23e96f3befaafa2997dfac6573 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <20AAD621-63D8-4EF5-8B98-ACAD9FC45339@tzi.org> References: <3D2C4DEE-2991-4539-B011-B1FFEE4530BE@tzi.org> <707d3f74-9f5e-5055-550e-247ea0c0210b@nostrum.com> To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mining WG notes X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 16:05:47 -0000 On 2021-09-04, at 19:29, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > The rsync endpoint you are looking for is at = rsync.ietf.org::proceedings Thank you! That was the missing link. I set up a little tool for my personal use, =E2=80=9Cminutes-wurst.rb=E2=80= =9D (named such because it compiles all recent minutes for a WG into a = big =E2=80=9CWurst=E2=80=9D, which is a mostly unstructured text file = (=E2=80=9CWurst=E2=80=9D) intended to be in chronological order). Example output at https://tzi.de/~cabo/minutes-core.txt https://tzi.de/~cabo/minutes-cbor.txt (My broken web server serves these as text/plain as opposed to = text/plain;charset=3Dutf-8 =E2=80=94 sorry about that. Wget/curl-O and = open locally.) Tool source for your amusement at: https://gist.github.com/cabo/8e99a77502e4920ee2c3d52227f97a1e (Some assembly required.) The tool requires rsyncing the proceedings first, which weigh at 50 GB = =E2=80=94 but selective rsyncing might speed this up (didn=E2=80=99t try = to figure this out). If people find this little tool useful, tell me; I might make this = available in a more immediately useful way. (I might also take a couple more minutes to implement PDF to text = conversion, which I simply didn=E2=80=99t need for these two WGs.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Sep 6 01:39:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63223A26CB; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 01:39:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1FhJ7n6J3h9Q; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 01:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 228FE3A26E6; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 01:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H31zH5CGhz2xQm; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 10:39:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 652610363.309292-97e3655ed44275572745505b8828f05e Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 10:39:23 +0200 Message-Id: To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Spam to wgname-bounces@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 08:39:36 -0000 All wgname@ietf.org lists have an associated address = wgname-bounces@ietf.org, which is used as the envelope address for all = messages sent from the mailman exploder to wgname@ietf.org. For some values of wgname, wgname-bounces@ietf.org has turned up in some = spammers' address collection, and there is of course nothing that can be = done about that. Of course the spam messages don=E2=80=99t look like bounces, so the = automatic handling of bounces in mailman cannot do anything useful with = them. Mailman allows to configure whether the list admins get shown = unidentifiable bounces. Switching this off may be tempting, but that = just means the admins fly blind for actual problems =E2=80=94 the = envelope address is useful; it allows the mailing list admins to notice = when something is wrong. But can we mitigate the spam to this address? Not sure that spam filtering would help much here. One mitigation might be to go =E2=80=9Cfast flux=E2=80=9D on the bounces = address, e.g. change it to wgname-bounces-2021-09 for this month and = discard mail to older versions (only accept wgname-bounces-2021-08 as = well) of the address. I haven=E2=80=99t checked whether mailman already = can do something like that; if not, that would require programming=E2=80=A6= Simply occasionally changing the bounces address manually would be a = low-tech variant of that (no idea whether it would be worth getting some = overlap then). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Sep 7 08:32:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91FFC3A0D41 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 08:32:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rVh76XzS19KV for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 08:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe33.google.com (mail-vs1-xe33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D7263A0D4A for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 08:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe33.google.com with SMTP id a21so8640053vsp.12 for ; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 08:32:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=sbJ/+q4XbdVIIo8EsOdYYuGDcJgvMA7hXxadpTydjzU=; b=XA0OGeMbQs+dQ/3R2yzTvXWwiF3FFFQvnjrj6u1pJjlnyZ9kPfhNfBqh0piWXoQuxH A/Jk7GCpqIRQldzieshLBpEwet3FyiOgkTIoFZzEdL/gkrd/NUM9bcxFdEFnbJrbZMhL Rdf2dbECnfWmyOHCPlL/FZTcU9GI83INLG+wAyuGyBS1KYBhKBRYZayTE1AuyHatMUuc zqO27J+AXO29bB3xf+xuQlE7S1fr1nnxNyj4y+gB2FC3mY+3ccMhBxdxNIeQKRWUcP8o V7pyP5sjkBmRcHzAbz0cBNLWIaEWyalVyyQLTypiP2FoWRjxlgTKvDP+to04+hRL8gjD Tlew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sbJ/+q4XbdVIIo8EsOdYYuGDcJgvMA7hXxadpTydjzU=; b=KnuuOH/e4Cx74TL8B55fEGgdl07lPrUhNpZ+LKHdLOy8Ow1evOuLfZwFLwKC5cwolV 30VLl+rxY/u2irQpWBL+aLC/hFXCC9X+zVOFs4PiPpGIWfUgicpxGuEn4DpJOpc1jHSm 3gPo/2TIXPCm4FayN8wsnepEKY0AMDbzEr7Htq6kKe8t/qLztpQdyKIn54JiS0UEGkdq JhJ34gdnschvC1Zi9TXsSadGqfp+wCYSvAVawbdPz93e7S1nT+I9hg8bJ09Ah5/Klja6 59rBugI0ZON/D4idJFxXG0Y74fajl1XzxT3cogstIm9sppwD2wMXJPQiMbDKwPBmU+/R uobg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532e5rYPmkqa/7pAWmwsiSS5USJlKjdNYolwKLgKaxWyPcWTxTLk aY3gEZTYTj3Yj934cxBHF11jFMdkLGBwWsWQprEYOekfmnQO8A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyPVtfJE+hkwnwQTtyKSUrgofD66lfpOpEm+oHw+IKGKkUBRNSDJWbCIlLkGucKTidCSIS6ejrsVdBgv6sPiXQ= X-Received: by 2002:a67:6c06:: with SMTP id h6mr9861123vsc.21.1631028721130; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 08:32:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0859FB3B-6893-4867-813C-87A3C14F6D4D@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <0859FB3B-6893-4867-813C-87A3C14F6D4D@ietf.org> From: Warren Kumari Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:31:25 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: Greg M , Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss , Robert Sparks Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008ab1a705cb697774" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 15:32:09 -0000 --0000000000008ab1a705cb697774 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:46 AM Jay Daley wrote: > > > On 4/09/2021, at 7:09 AM, Greg M wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > Thanks kindly for responses. > > >> =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? > Perhaps not as important as simply defining, somewhere logical on the IET= F > site, the meaning of "bis" as used. > > I've made a pull request to add the Tao text to the "Guidelines to Authors of Internet-Drafts" repo. This is orthogonal to if it is added to the IETF site. Thanks, W > > Easy enough to do. We will look at it this week. > > Jay > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > > Greg McPherran > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Robert Sparks > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:01 PM > *To:* Marc Petit-Huguenin > *Cc:* Brian E Carpenter ; Carsten Bormann < > cabo@tzi.org>; gmcpherran@outlook.com ; > tools-discuss > *Subject:* Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" > > This is the updates conversation wearing a different skin. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 1, 2021, at 6:35 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin > wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter? So the draft th= at > preceded RFC 8489 should have been rfc5389ter, but that still does not se= em > right. rfc3489ter? > > > > On 9/1/21 4:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there > anyway.) > >> The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject "Re= : > 1602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed also knew how > the CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that StackOverflow > debate, this is not exactly new terminology. > >> Also, > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.me= rriam-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fbis&data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404d= ca45b208d96da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63766137712= 4901271%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI= 6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DFtDn0DwLIfh7Xk6MzWRh9z8PDeCIDNtZ= MoOTsOM1kQI%3D&reserved=3D0 > . Does the IETF web site really need to replace a dictionary? > >> Regards > >> Brian Carpenter > >> On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote: > >>> Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an IETF > idiosyncrasy that one needs to learn about. > >>> > >>> If we are not talking about US export controls, =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D= is used in house > numbering in Romance languages the same way DE or EN would use =E2=80=9Ca= =E2=80=9D. > >>> So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets =E2=80=9C3a" in Germ= any and > "3 bis" in France. > >>> > >>> In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (=E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80=9D), b= is, ter, etc. is > used for documents that are related to an earlier one, e.g. V.42 is modem > error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that. > >>> > >>> Building a =E2=80=9C3 bis=E2=80=9D house doesn=E2=80=99t mean you dem= olish =E2=80=9C3=E2=80=9D; V.42bis is not > a replacement for V.42. > >>> > >>> How =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D got the idiosyncratic =E2=80=9Creplacement = version of=E2=80=9D meaning in > IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that was simply trying to mimic (and moc= k, > all the while misunderstanding) CCITT habit. > >>> > >>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask there > anyway.) > >>> > >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > >>> > >>> > >>>> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks wrote= : > >>>> > >>>> Moving this to tools-discuss. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- > >>>> Subject: [django-project] "bis" in HTTP"bis" > >>>> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 > >>>> From: Greg M > >>>> To: datatracker-project@ietf.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to expect > detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with an > obscure > >> term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no explanation o= f > "bis" so you would do well to provide a note about "bis" meaning e.g. in > the "About" page. > >>>> > >>>> Example of public "bis" confusion: > >>>> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow > >>>> > >>>> Thank You for the work that you do. > >>>> > >>>> Greg McPherran > >>>> Siteware.org > >>>> > > > > > > > > -- > > Marc Petit-Huguenin > > Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org > > Blog: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fmarc.p= etit-huguenin.org%2F&data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208d96da4dc= 4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124906249%7CUnknow= n%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI= 6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DR6G5I%2F0Q6srzoSzcHWUxK104WzpG5duOc%2BiOWgU413Y%= 3D&reserved=3D0 > > Profile: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.li= nkedin.com%2Fin%2Fpetithug&data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208d9= 6da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124906249%7C= Unknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiL= CJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3DI2Eq8M9MP48toludXRpgn6XggizUSt2z08oM9fNOi6= g%3D&reserved=3D0 > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --=20 The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused by = the complexities of his own making. -- E. W. Dijkstra --0000000000008ab1a705cb697774 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:46 AM= Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf= .org> wrote:


On 4/09/2021, at 7:09 AM, Greg M <GMcPherran@outlook.com> wrote:<= br>
=EF=BB= =BF
Thanks= =C2=A0kindly for responses.=C2=A0

>> =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter?
Perhaps not as important as simply defining, somewhere logical on the IETF = site, the meaning of "bis" as used.

I've made a pull request = to add the Tao text to the "Guidelines to Authors of Internet-Drafts&q= uot; repo. This is orthogonal=C2=A0to if it is added to the IETF site.

Thanks,
W
=C2=A0

Easy enough to do.=C2=A0 We will look at it this w= eek. =C2=A0

Jay

--=C2=A0
Jay Daley
IET= F Executive Director=C2=A0


Greg McPherran


From= : Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:01 PM
To: Marc Petit-Huguenin <marc@petit-huguenin.org>
Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Carsten Bormann= <cabo@tzi.org>= ; gmcpherran@ou= tlook.com <gmcpherran@outlook.com>; tools-discuss <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [django-project] "bis" in HTT= P"bis"
=C2=A0
This is the updates conversation wearing a different skin.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 1, 2021, at 6:35 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin <marc@petit-huguenin.org> = wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFAlso, shouldn't the update of a bis be a ter?=C2=A0 So th= e draft that preceded RFC 8489 should have been rfc5389ter, but that still = does not seem right.=C2=A0 rfc3489ter?
>
> On 9/1/21 4:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask= there anyway.)
>> The oldest relevant email I have is dated 25 May 1994 with subject= "Re: 1602bis ready for review", sent to Lyman Chapin, who indeed= also knew how the CCITT did things. So despite the astonishment in that St= ackOverflow debate, this is not exactly new terminology.
>> Also, https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.merr= iam-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fbis&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee3840= 4dca45b208d96da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377= 124901271%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBT= iI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=3DFtDn0DwLIfh7Xk6MzWRh9z8PDe= CIDNtZMoOTsOM1kQI%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 . Does the IETF web site really need to replace a dictionary?
>> Regards
>>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter
>> On 02-Sep-21 08:43, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>> Not sure this belongs on tools-discuss, but this is indeed an = IETF idiosyncrasy that one needs to learn about.
>>>
>>> If we are not talking about US export controls, =E2=80=9Cbis= =E2=80=9D is used in house numbering in Romance languages the same way DE o= r EN would use =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D.
>>> So if you build a house between 3 and 4, it gets =E2=80=9C3a&q= uot; in Germany and "3 bis" in France.
>>>
>>> In CCITT (now ITU-T) standards (=E2=80=9Crecommendations=E2=80= =9D), bis, ter, etc. is used for documents that are related to an earlier o= ne, e.g. V.42 is modem error control, and V.42bis adds compression to that.=
>>>
>>> Building a =E2=80=9C3 bis=E2=80=9D house doesn=E2=80=99t mean = you demolish =E2=80=9C3=E2=80=9D; V.42bis is not a replacement for V.42. >>>
>>> How =E2=80=9Cbis=E2=80=9D got the idiosyncratic =E2=80=9Crepla= cement version of=E2=80=9D meaning in IETF is unknown to me; I suspect that= was simply trying to mimic (and mock, all the while misunderstanding) CCIT= T habit.
>>>
>>> (Not quite internet-history material, but we might want to ask= there anyway.)
>>>
>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 1. Sep 2021, at 18:54, Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wr= ote:
>>>>
>>>> Moving this to tools-discuss.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>>> Subject:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [django-project] "bis"= ; in HTTP"bis"
>>>> Date:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:39:29 +0000 >>>> From:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Greg M <GMcPherran@outlook.com>
>>>> To:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 datatracker-project@ietf.org <datatracker-proj= ect@ietf.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi, those who read these specifications already know to ex= pect detailed and dry documents, so presenting them right off the bat with = an obscure
>> term "bis" is not helpful. :-) A search on IETF shows no= explanation of "bis" so you would do well to provide a note abou= t "bis" meaning e.g. in the "About" page.
>>>>
>>>> Example of public "bis" confusion:
>>>> http - HTTPbis - what does bis mean? - Stack Overflow
>>>>
>>>> Thank You for the work that you do.
>>>>
>>>> Greg McPherran
>>>> Siteware.org
>>>>
>
>
>
> --
> Marc Petit-Huguenin
> Email: ma= rc@petit-huguenin.org
> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fmarc.pet= it-huguenin.org%2F&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208d96da4= dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124906249%7CUnkn= own%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXV= CI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=3DR6G5I%2F0Q6srzoSzcHWUxK104WzpG5duOc%2BiOWg= U413Y%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> Profile: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.link= edin.com%2Fin%2Fpetithug&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7C%7C2bd8fcee38404dca45b208= d96da4dc4a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637661377124906249%= 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWw= iLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=3DI2Eq8M9MP48toludXRpgn6XggizUSt2z08oM= 9fNOi6g%3D&amp;reserved=3D0

___________________________________________________________Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list i= s for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
*= Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org=
* Report tool= s.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other= bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
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___________________________________= ________________________
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This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
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List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


--
The computing scientist=E2=80= =99s main challenge is not to get confused by the
complexities of his ow= n making.
=C2=A0 -- E. W. Dijkstra
--0000000000008ab1a705cb697774-- From nobody Tue Sep 7 09:11:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED29E3A11D2 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:11:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zwcIKPfY-5Cx for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD4EB3A11CC for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 187GBD6t087008 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:11:14 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631031074; bh=X0ytaFMep1NwZDanIfM6r/KyQG1i4ThZDU6rFSGRxSQ=; h=To:From:Subject:Date; b=CrEmKrprKlIfRv2W96f9tvZ9a2B9jfB+5V9HzL5Gn0bhb8z9ms/5XlIMI7eZVDV2f V4RlSGKsxTvIjelEWK6bkREW40mgPq0jPa9acR3KuixnLIbDbYQAfPwecg1d3l525f E/LgxGfkoxNCzkQb0H6Z5qmaTzKdxn7DxQ9kFkec= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:11:08 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:11:21 -0000 We have a rough edge at making it easy to say "I want the current agenda = for FOO" or "I want the current draft text for draft-bar". tools.ietf.org had a 404 handler on many of the things it served to map=20 to the current version. The datatracker gives the current version, but=20 doesn't make it easy to get a raw document (instead of the metadata=20 page) for use with other tools, like rfcdiff. Solving this with a 404 handler at www.ietf.org/archive/id (or any of=20 the other places we look for things at www.ietf.org) has a bad=20 interaction with using cloudflare to help get what should be static=20 resources out as quickly as possible. I want to separate the dynamic things from the invariant things. I'm currently thinking of adding an endpoint somewhere, likely at first=20 in the datatracker, and maybe later as a standalone service, that looks=20 like: {some prefix}/latest/{docname-without-version} Remember, docnames can be for drafts, agendas, slides, whatever... that will redirect (using a temporary redirect) to the current version=20 of the named document in "best" format available, and allowing variants l= ike {some prefix}/latest/{docname-without-version}/txt to force the format. These would redirect to places that serve invariant things very efficient= ly. Software like rfcdiff can take a bare docname and internally use this=20 service to get the most recent thing. People can keep tabs open pointed to agendas through this service to be=20 sure to get whatever is current as a meeting approaches. Thoughts? RjS From nobody Tue Sep 7 09:14:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD59A3A11F6 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:14:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9g7RLOrvY7v7 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4B713A11F5 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H3r1t1yyBz2xb9; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:14:26 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:14:25 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 652724065.580139-0c2c145f4c087110ef9f5537bb453aae Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:14:34 -0000 Right direction... > On 2021-09-07, at 18:11, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > adding an endpoint somewhere Can we design the URIs for ease of use as opposed to ease of = implementation? Can we do this right so this becomes doc.ietf.org? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Sep 7 09:17:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1574E3A121A for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:17:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Agm5qXZmT1_Z for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8F773A1219 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 187GHKPm089151 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:17:21 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631031441; bh=ZkLBaDWpA73lg4wHZ2xyaFk0ubAvab1cocGUaeHTCWI=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=cF6IjT0DTzV30fgwigrUaauEPJFSmi5Y2jRilZXMHHpxUj9jS2PWQqG1vPWSvULe0 1zhAdqjYsNwjKjq0wjsymc8zf2syDq2nYqSyo46LNaAKgqlq4vKI2NZ/YTa06Bgq5Z IkSH2aQ9qL+R8GxTyePnz7mbM/QQP6x06T0xmydY= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:17:15 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:17:28 -0000 On 9/7/21 11:14 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Right direction... > >> On 2021-09-07, at 18:11, Robert Sparks wrote: >> >> adding an endpoint somewhere > Can we design the URIs for ease of use as opposed to ease of implementation? > Can we do this right so this becomes doc.ietf.org? I think what I've proposed is compatible with that goal. Do you see something there that introduces impedance? > > Grüße, Carsten > From nobody Tue Sep 7 09:36:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF39C3A1335 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WLmhlQ-R9rxR for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED2283A1324 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.60.39] (76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 187GZwDv065080 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:35:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] claimed to be [10.32.60.39] From: Paul Hoffman To: Robert Sparks Cc: tools-discuss Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 09:36:04 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5798) Message-ID: <2F45A9BB-F811-4373-8D5B-D76BF2EE8FBB@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:36:21 -0000 On 7 Sep 2021, at 9:11, Robert Sparks wrote: > Thoughts? I would very much like this. It was one of the main reasons I created the IETF CLI project (https://github.com/paulehoffman/ietf-cli) a while back. It is for a different purpose (opening drafts and RFCs locally in an editor), but it had the same background request. FWIW, I have just updated the project so that when you open an RFC, you automatically find out of there are drafts that intend to update or obsolete the RFC. If you use the CLI and have suggestions, I'm always open to them. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Tue Sep 7 09:41:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE7F3A1389 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:41:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xGnMyba_OoDW for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF2063A1383 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H3rdM1Ld2z2xc1; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:41:43 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:41:42 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 652725702.757197-bd47266ae474723faacaef85415dd638 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0EED55A9-2DCC-4137-8FFB-517F64DC0BCC@tzi.org> References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:41:53 -0000 On 2021-09-07, at 18:17, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 9/7/21 11:14 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Right direction... >>=20 >>> On 2021-09-07, at 18:11, Robert Sparks wrote: >>>=20 >>> adding an endpoint somewhere >> Can we design the URIs for ease of use as opposed to ease of = implementation? >> Can we do this right so this becomes doc.ietf.org? > I think what I've proposed is compatible with that goal. Do you see = something there that introduces impedance? Only the examples with /latest and /txt in them. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Sep 7 09:48:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBF93A13BB for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:48:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AtH8ZZTdbaHC for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C067E3A13AF for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 187GmYNl000626 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:48:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631033315; bh=g8mW1zM3Hfm6YzsT3+JobC+ei05xC2e/jSZ2tIvrGeQ=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=vh/OsUjMAT8KZkn1uHzHqMUPR02vaNdvAE+H7Lh+P9qs84xbuGj32/mNsxOzWlwuW HP1z03TN8y0rppDWFm84zNSYQZnLRHes8U6HDhwvC0FMpDTDeRevy+uIGwreQBGL2M U9ZLn+4w4nOg7D5v7D1pbi0OvGnzgOwp0Jyk6vpA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> <0EED55A9-2DCC-4137-8FFB-517F64DC0BCC@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <6e9e0372-0ab0-8f18-cf97-2b83e2500563@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:48:29 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0EED55A9-2DCC-4137-8FFB-517F64DC0BCC@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:48:41 -0000 On 9/7/21 11:41 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2021-09-07, at 18:17, Robert Sparks wrote: >> >> On 9/7/21 11:14 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> Right direction... >>> >>>> On 2021-09-07, at 18:11, Robert Sparks wrote:= >>>> >>>> adding an endpoint somewhere >>> Can we design the URIs for ease of use as opposed to ease of implemen= tation? >>> Can we do this right so this becomes doc.ietf.org? >> I think what I've proposed is compatible with that goal. Do you see so= mething there that introduces impedance? > Only the examples with /latest and /txt in them. So lets dig into this, recognizing that we're talking now towards some=20 future thing, and not necessarily the next step. If you had doc.ietf.org, what do you envision the URLs there _would_=20 look like? > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > From nobody Tue Sep 7 09:55:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE3E23A1458 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:55:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6mFrDc24drth for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 202FA3A1451 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H3rx50LJSz2xbx; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:55:21 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <6e9e0372-0ab0-8f18-cf97-2b83e2500563@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:55:20 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 652726520.628567-0b5135d67152fa8eab02f20e7205db0d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4A13F1CA-A78D-419C-9D33-BB98C068D508@tzi.org> References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> <0EED55A9-2DCC-4137-8FFB-517F64DC0BCC@tzi.org> <6e9e0372-0ab0-8f18-cf97-2b83e2500563@nostrum.com> To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:55:31 -0000 On 2021-09-07, at 18:48, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > If you had doc.ietf.org, what do you envision the URLs there _would_ = look like? Short, memorable, stable. https://doc.ietf.org/rfc8610 (default form, HTML probably) https://doc.ietf.org/rfc8610.pdf =20 Note that the HTML forms do have a short header that is informed by the = tools =E2=80=9Chtmlized=E2=80=9D metadata header. If someone wants the = canonical form published by the RFC editor, they can go there (helped by = links in the metadata header). https://doc.ietf.org/draft-ietf-core-data-ct Redirects to: https://doc.ietf.org/draft-ietf-core-data-ct-04 (the latter is stable) https://doc.ietf.org/agenda-interim-2021-cbor-16-cbor Redirects to: https://doc.ietf.org/agenda-interim-2021-cbor-16-cbor-01/ etc. Now, it also would be interesting to get a search function like = tools.ietf.org has: https://doc.ietf.org/agenda-cbor-16 https://doc.ietf.org/data-ct (Again, redirect to the longer forms.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Sep 7 10:07:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E4E3A1539 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 10:07:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kq5Rl5zFunNi for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 10:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B65F23A1537 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 10:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 187H7L3J007450 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 12:07:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631034442; bh=zeigmB/bk4jv4QYINhnGqCfWI8hnB8K/9H9p9Ykl+k0=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Af8z+geb/hF3CVk8ZSM2Q7SZ1XweyyyNjcRqJXFYJDbJAvmeoyJywYiHFpyw5/job YKh3dlW4fKa/HnpAHUNJd1wNBHX0tHdzZyfiK0fgToXyM1w+AylUYW6MKhFDknfBtY efLVzH6dfzWQpO5LKeb8xhNWPnY4eicNlgd6iMSw= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> <0EED55A9-2DCC-4137-8FFB-517F64DC0BCC@tzi.org> <6e9e0372-0ab0-8f18-cf97-2b83e2500563@nostrum.com> <4A13F1CA-A78D-419C-9D33-BB98C068D508@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <64913395-8e0d-dfa9-f878-491995e890b7@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 12:07:16 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4A13F1CA-A78D-419C-9D33-BB98C068D508@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 17:07:38 -0000 On 9/7/21 11:55 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2021-09-07, at 18:48, Robert Sparks wrote: >> If you had doc.ietf.org, what do you envision the URLs there _would_ l= ook like? > Short, memorable, stable. > > > https://doc.ietf.org/rfc8610 (default form, HTML probably) > https://doc.ietf.org/rfc8610.pdf > > Note that the HTML forms do have a short header that is informed by the= tools =E2=80=9Chtmlized=E2=80=9D metadata header. If someone wants the = canonical form published by the RFC editor, they can go there (helped by = links in the metadata header). > > https://doc.ietf.org/draft-ietf-core-data-ct > Redirects to: > https://doc.ietf.org/draft-ietf-core-data-ct-04 > > (the latter is stable) > > https://doc.ietf.org/agenda-interim-2021-cbor-16-cbor > Redirects to: > https://doc.ietf.org/agenda-interim-2021-cbor-16-cbor-01/ > > etc. > > Now, it also would be interesting to get a search function like tools.i= etf.org has: > > https://doc.ietf.org/agenda-cbor-16 > https://doc.ietf.org/data-ct > > (Again, redirect to the longer forms.) So lets talk about leveraging a CDN or similar service for the immutable = things. With what you have here, you would _always_ have to go through logic at=20 this service even if you specified something concrete enough that you=20 could pull it from something that served only immutable content=20 directly. Scaling of the logic for these things is different. What if, instead of a single docs.ietf.org we had something like=20 docs.ietf.org for the dynamic points, and archive.ietf.org for the=20 immutables? RjS > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Tue Sep 7 14:09:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A8913A17F7 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:09:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WRqxsAbdJVC2 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90E853A17F4 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150B439487; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:15:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id svlHuZSywl9Q; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:15:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD7539444; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05FC02CC; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:08:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Robert Sparks , tools-discuss In-Reply-To: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> References: <88482423-a732-4fb6-8b1c-cce9bda20515@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Getting the "current" version of things X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 21:09:13 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert Sparks wrote: > I want to separate the dynamic things from the invariant things. Sounds good. > I'm currently thinking of adding an endpoint somewhere, likely at fir= st > in the datatracker, and maybe later as a standalone service, that loo= ks > like: Why start with datatracker if you plan to use another name? Just start with the name, and update DNS when it's a different server? > that will redirect (using a temporary redirect) to the current version > of the named document in "best" format available, and allowing varian= ts > like Sounds perfect. > People can keep tabs open pointed to agendas through this service to = be > sure to get whatever is current as a meeting approaches. Given the glitches I've observed with google calendar not updating/caching calender entries, having a URL for an agenda that doesn't change would help work around that problem. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmE31OgACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVjwAf+MVPi1jFjfujsJTiqlGsVTFTTpSJpBXTYWEqwYQjM5j/lzQqDNeyWJZez JJm5OZfLChBASZul2gqRQoJZ1j5vdDCeUKFY3jCG2wIa6gkGp1+qUtxEdThdgs40 r8UXPN2D9eUrDz825BR5Dd/djMuM1gF4Xpa9B28GgQABj5bzNKLXeNV3f8NEjZbp kHLpeqZWYMGjtwR6SnLwS+eYWncM1hVLvQ4cnJ1+37Pb6MY1pXS1rWFgjwH7/2qb Os09L1+L9pVpQtbb8Hxkvv21psvkWXqUC2YM0AtlEP++VcJCp9Nf/uF00I2ppHca F7hJG7K17kRf43EVePSMf1MXKCthKA== =gRXD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Sep 7 14:33:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E67C3A1935 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:33:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UtIEnAgum16g for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x331.google.com (mail-ot1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::331]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84D413A1931 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x331.google.com with SMTP id l7-20020a0568302b0700b0051c0181deebso86869otv.12 for ; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 14:33:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=6I66EX0bak10vI0Kb0n+lE+syjsBfEpgNeYka1J/iTA=; b=pHvShEmKGs2pQdM9NVWu8hcP9dz4nEf2RV8EDO81zVUJzTARwtetd1F9wMJZKKbU4U wPZ+AHGYUqMh31MEFzNljvD6d+ay18CXflIuTMYIy6CIwOewbTlo0PvRatYUgKVDels8 PMpjxTrKg0zhsE2R/nip30k85Q7G4SYlDSKdE+ndNLyrMnvq2k+ENH5btwyCwlynghY8 imxUoGQ03i3LPLx5Txa3EPUQohy9oohbGdrNq+bmC8ereaEJNKm2IDTPTkhup4Cseik2 aWrtq6YzoagknKlUcqSIKRGi/iH8fMocIgar6dyLjB5E13npuBxmkY93nnhvdJykcWX5 sVag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=6I66EX0bak10vI0Kb0n+lE+syjsBfEpgNeYka1J/iTA=; b=m5bQ2e6hNVp8JjWRcGnJJCc1mTm4l6kK9RgxCaiLN01nXs2E1CT4KIXvsrmSvdKFAk FX8Z/NBEfpvhoV1RSx7v4hWLu9xsfim84WCsShapDoasSdva+fMhUOkpjXR1KsQXF1aY 9QNucSqSMLojFhRVJAlQS4pe93hdEtsIQJ8GsLGnTtWFTyFDptlb3gI77Wg5s35rEr89 wjKy/lm1lpOyKIjVxIU66OZ0+UMixpicaB8gNgZnDuJDRKGO/7wPMDRGIUCCdrYYKGik x98ZKOUallu8N9OnhieCivsyxM9kVvQxWpF2Yav3Dwh+/nXSZ6D1R6vs6mLfc5WvE1qF LHAg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5327/urC9ykNdSsxWylQ+mESdl3KPD+2kFZ4vFISta0Xdq8rBsXL hbcQ8XH3E+lx2SXXY0qb5+dZI4XDG6Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzz/7jBPoQyJGgbMUphXdB8SJv5icU19K7g5Lpc04JIB+Ang7PbN+PcAMsaInmFQ3zHT62yTQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:4c1:: with SMTP id s1mr390864otd.221.1631050390832; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 14:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (c-73-223-183-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.223.183.113]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g16sm29953otr.20.2021.09.07.14.33.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Sep 2021 14:33:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AD17A084-F384-4222-BB52-F3DA7BDCD233"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:33:08 -0700 To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] ID Nits issues with references X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 21:33:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AD17A084-F384-4222-BB52-F3DA7BDCD233 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, This may be a known problem, I am getting IDNITS errors based on the = expansion of a few references. See: = https://www6.ietf.org/tools/idnits?url=3Dhttps://www.ietf.org/archive/id/d= raft-ietf-6man-mtu-option-08.txt Specifically the reference for RFC8899 and RFC9099 Bob --Apple-Mail=_AD17A084-F384-4222-BB52-F3DA7BDCD233 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmE32pQACgkQrut0EXfn u6jqCAf7BUqPVyrR7h56OzdVYmcyMN0wKNkD8kLnliFAdBAWoLd/K8fh5d4ah2AQ 3B8BNfl9N9/ddUGH8P0sVe73FzudLFwisO1izttiVqSKB/mRFPt8ao2o1H1nwWDl gO8rymwWG54yYE2MRUeRhkS3R7cnsBP06HO7+PqoWhLAIbnpkFjDTkPfpnBccXJ+ tIZVqXNhRCzIz6oiAzVCuLlQB7xHl9DhFGgElQIxeMrOPfxA/Fv8BpwtmOG2P2Fb znJtHvq1gLHfQ2kjqPwq50xIhTOlB2iyXTiY/5uozMtuTtUfGdszuiDarWyVDGro 5VIucgL1bUb8LAfbQuqVPvCcn3nSVQ== =Hady -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_AD17A084-F384-4222-BB52-F3DA7BDCD233-- From nobody Tue Sep 7 14:59:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 518593A1A8C for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:59:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qvKX7hyT1mYC for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F7583A1A48 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 187LxHvX013391 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:59:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631051957; bh=dqF2eW/M37jacCyrWWVF3objicLxwPtLofDf7DDWx9M=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=HPeM2dtXScuw+LwzFGEIgeVvxCwsCy/tSOS5GCdovrzv8gjTNH80hm3EVU5NO+qc2 vU1U3Onxz4Zxe+fSMteiIncyLoiyX1NRi7FMY5hoVUVIl/43MBQDjYUUE1+gVjgBZy FJbn72z1JgXsZG7k53wr0Tk723MYunBQGygdMHqc= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Bob Hinden , tools-discuss References: From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:59:11 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F315FAE2CD8929730FDD2ABC" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] ID Nits issues with references X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 21:59:27 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F315FAE2CD8929730FDD2ABC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes - all symptoms of what's happening with bibxml. Thanks for reporting it. RjS On 9/7/21 4:33 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: > Hi, > > This may be a known problem, I am getting IDNITS errors based on the expansion of a few references. > > See: > > https://www6.ietf.org/tools/idnits?url=https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-6man-mtu-option-08.txt > > Specifically the reference for RFC8899 and RFC9099 > > Bob > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --------------F315FAE2CD8929730FDD2ABC Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Yes - all symptoms of what's happening with bibxml. Thanks for reporting it.

RjS

On 9/7/21 4:33 PM, Bob Hinden wrote:
Hi,

This may be a known problem, I am getting IDNITS errors based on the expansion of a few references.

See:

   https://www6.ietf.org/tools/idnits?url=https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-6man-mtu-option-08.txt

Specifically the reference for RFC8899 and RFC9099

Bob



___________________________________________________________
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Thu, 9 Sep 2021 21:37:25 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bal=E1zs_Lengyel?= To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Unknown idnits error Thread-Index: AdelwChKgTJnD9xMQ02aU3zEB6MieAAALSmg Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 21:37:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 75665fa6-8223-4515-c01a-08d973da03ef x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM8PR07MB8107: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_08E5_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM8PR07MB8230.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 75665fa6-8223-4515-c01a-08d973da03ef X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Sep 2021 21:37:25.5336 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: +KO6oFffLXPDB5zRIzMG5XBYnFjiljtmvcrF26N1hMTOPBzFEyy6LPNeZq0inhJ4ewl8MEZ/DhbT275rnDO1zUNOB02iCPfZ7SY1CrWEPoE= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM8PR07MB8107 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Unknown idnits error X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:37:48 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_08E5_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_08E6_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0" ------=_NextPart_001_08E6_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_08E7_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0" ------=_NextPart_002_08E7_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I am trying to check a new version of my draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18 (attached). I tried to check the draft running the web based idnits tool. = https://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/ =20 The draft=92s previous version did not have any idnits errors or = warnings. Now suddenly I get:=20 =20 =3D=3D Couldn't figure out when the document was first submitted -- = there may comments or warnings related to the use of a disclaimer for = pre-RFC5378 work that could not be issued because of this. Please check the = Legal Provisions document at https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info to determine if you need the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer. I did not change any boilerplate info. Why do I get this warning and how = to get rid of it? It is impossible to understand the problem and how to handle it from = this error message.=20 =20 Please help, Balazs =20 =20 --=20 Balazs Lengyel Senior Specialist Ericsson Hungary Ltd.=20 Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_002_08E7_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

I am trying =
to check a new version of my =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18 =
(attached).

I tried to check = the draft running the web based idnits tool. https://tools.ietf.org/to= ols/idnits/

 
The =
draft’s previous version did not have any idnits errors or =
warnings. Now suddenly I get: 
 =
=3D=3D Couldn't figure out when the document was =
first submitted -- there =
may
     comments or warnings =
related to the use of a disclaimer for =
pre-RFC5378
     work that =
could not be issued because of this.  Please check the =
Legal
     Provisions document =
at https://trustee.ietf.org/l=
icense-info to =
determine
     if you need the =
pre-RFC5378 disclaimer.
I did not =
change any boilerplate info. Why do I get this warning and how to get =
rid of it?
It is =
impossible to understand the problem and how to handle it from this =
error message. 
 
Please help, =
Balazs

 

 

-- =

Balazs = Lengyel           =          Senior = Specialist          &nb= sp;            = Ericsson Hungary Ltd.

Mobile: = +36-70-330-7909         &nbs= p;    email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com

 

------=_NextPart_002_08E7_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0-- ------=_NextPart_001_08E6_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0 Content-Type: text/plain; name="draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18.txt" =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Netmod B. Lengyel=0A= Internet-Draft Ericsson=0A= Intended status: Standards Track B. Claise=0A= Expires: March 13, 2022 Huawei=0A= September 9, 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= YANG Instance Data File Format=0A= draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18=0A= =0A= Abstract=0A= =0A= There is a need to document data defined in YANG models at design=0A= time, implementation time or when a live server is unavailable. This=0A= document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance data,=0A= which follows the syntax and semantics of existing YANG models, and=0A= annotates it with metadata.=0A= =0A= Status of This Memo=0A= =0A= This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the=0A= provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79.=0A= =0A= Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering=0A= Task Force (IETF). Note that other groups may also distribute=0A= working documents as Internet-Drafts. The list of current Internet-=0A= Drafts is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/.=0A= =0A= Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months=0A= and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any=0A= time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference=0A= material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."=0A= =0A= This Internet-Draft will expire on March 13, 2022.=0A= =0A= Copyright Notice=0A= =0A= Copyright (c) 2021 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the=0A= document authors. All rights reserved.=0A= =0A= This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal=0A= Provisions Relating to IETF Documents=0A= (https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of=0A= publication of this document. Please review these documents=0A= carefully, as they describe your rights and restrictions with respect=0A= to this document. Code Components extracted from this document must=0A= include Simplified BSD License text as described in Section 4.e of=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 1]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= the Trust Legal Provisions and are provided without warranty as=0A= described in the Simplified BSD License.=0A= =0A= Table of Contents=0A= =0A= 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2=0A= 1.1. Terminology . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3=0A= 1.2. Principles . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4=0A= 1.3. Delivery of Instance Data . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4=0A= 1.4. Data Life cycle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5=0A= 2. Instance Data File Format . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5=0A= 2.1. Specifying the Content Schema . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7=0A= 2.1.1. Inline Method . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8=0A= 2.1.2. Simplified-Inline Method . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8=0A= 2.1.3. URI Method . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8=0A= 2.2. Examples . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8=0A= 2.2.1. Documentation of server capabilities . . . . . . . . 8=0A= 2.2.2. Preloading default configuration data . . . . . . . . 10=0A= 2.2.3. Storing diagnostics data . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11=0A= 3. YANG Instance Data Model . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12=0A= 3.1. Tree Diagram . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12=0A= 3.2. YANG Model . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13=0A= 4. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20=0A= 5. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20=0A= 5.1. URI Registration . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20=0A= 5.2. YANG Module Name Registration . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21=0A= 6. Acknowledgments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21=0A= 7. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21=0A= 7.1. Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21=0A= 7.2. Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22=0A= Appendix A. Changes between revisions . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23=0A= Appendix B. Backwards Compatibility . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26=0A= Appendix C. Detailed Use Cases . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26=0A= C.1. Use Case 1: Early Documentation of Server Capabilities . 27=0A= C.2. Use Case 2: Preloading Data . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28=0A= C.3. Use Case 3: Documenting Factory Default Settings . . . . 28=0A= Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28=0A= =0A= 1. Introduction=0A= =0A= There is a need to document data defined in YANG models when a live=0A= server is unavailable. Data is often needed at design,=0A= implementation time or when a live running server is unavailable. To=0A= facilitate this offline delivery of data, this document specifies a=0A= standard format for YANG instance data sets and YANG instance data=0A= files. The format of the instance data set is defined by the "ietf-=0A= yang-instance-data" YANG module, see Section 3. The YANG data model=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 2]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= in this document conforms to the Network Management Datastore=0A= Architecture (NMDA) defined in [RFC8342]=0A= =0A= The following is a list of already implemented and potential use=0A= cases.=0A= =0A= UC1 Documentation of server capabilities=0A= =0A= UC2 Preloading default configuration data=0A= =0A= UC3 Documenting Factory Default Settings=0A= =0A= UC4 Storing the configuration of a device, e.g., for backup, archive=0A= or audit purposes=0A= =0A= UC5 Storing diagnostics data=0A= =0A= UC6 Allowing YANG instance data to potentially be carried within=0A= other IPC message formats=0A= =0A= UC7 Default instance data used as part of a templating solution=0A= =0A= UC8 Providing data examples in RFCs or internet drafts=0A= =0A= In Appendix C describes the first three use cases in detail.=0A= =0A= There are many and varied use cases where YANG instance data could be=0A= used. This document does not limit future uses of instance data=0A= sets, so specifying how and when to use YANG instance data is out of=0A= scope for this document. It is anticipated that other documents will=0A= define specific use cases. Use cases are listed only as examples.=0A= =0A= 1.1. Terminology=0A= =0A= The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",=0A= "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "NOT RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and=0A= "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in BCP=0A= 14 [RFC2119] [RFC8174] when, and only when, they appear in all=0A= capitals, as shown here.=0A= =0A= Instance Data: A collection of instantiated data nodes.=0A= =0A= Instance Data Set: A named set of data items annotated with metadata=0A= that can be used as instance data in a YANG data tree.=0A= =0A= Instance Data File: A file containing an instance data set formatted=0A= according to the rules described in this document.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 3]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= Content-schema: A set of YANG modules with their revision, supported=0A= features, and deviations for which the instance data set contains=0A= instance data.=0A= =0A= Content defining YANG module: an individual YANG module that is part=0A= of the content-schema.=0A= =0A= The term "server" is used as defined in [RFC8342].=0A= =0A= 1.2. Principles=0A= =0A= The following is a list of the basic principles of the instance data=0A= format:=0A= =0A= P1 Two standard formats shall be defined based on the XML and JSON=0A= encodings.=0A= =0A= P2 Instance data shall reuse existing encoding rules for YANG=0A= defined data.=0A= =0A= P3 Metadata about the instance data set (Section 2, Paragraph 9)=0A= shall be defined.=0A= =0A= P4 A YANG instance data set shall be allowed to contain data for=0A= multiple YANG modules.=0A= =0A= P5 Instance data shall be allowed to contain configuration data,=0A= state data, or a mix of the two.=0A= =0A= P6 Partial data sets shall be allowed.=0A= =0A= P7 The YANG instance data format shall be usable for any data for=0A= which YANG module(s) are defined and available to the reader,=0A= independent of whether the module is implemented by a server.=0A= =0A= P8 It shall be possible to report the identity of the datastore with=0A= which the instance data set is associated.=0A= =0A= 1.3. Delivery of Instance Data=0A= =0A= Instance data sets that are produced as a result of some sort of=0A= specification or design effort may be available without the need for=0A= a live server e.g., via download from the vendor's website, or in any=0A= other way that product documentation is distributed.=0A= =0A= Other instance data sets may be read from or produced by the YANG=0A= server itself e.g., UC5 documenting diagnostic data.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 4]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= 1.4. Data Life cycle=0A= =0A= A YANG instance data set is created at a specific point of time. If=0A= the data changes afterwards, this is not represented in the instance=0A= data set anymore. The current values may be retrieved at run-time=0A= via NETCONF/RESTCONF or received e.g., in YANG-Push notifications.=0A= =0A= Whether the instance data changes and if so, when and how, should be=0A= described either in the instance data set's description statement or=0A= in some other implementation specific manner.=0A= =0A= 2. Instance Data File Format=0A= =0A= A YANG instance data file MUST contain a single instance data set and=0A= no additional data.=0A= =0A= The format of the instance data set is defined by the "ietf-yang-=0A= instance-data" YANG module. It is made up of a header part and=0A= content-data. The header part carries metadata for the instance data=0A= set. The content-data, defined as an anydata data node, carries the=0A= instance data that the user wants to document/provide. The syntax=0A= and semantics of content-data is defined by the content-schema.=0A= =0A= Two formats are specified based on the XML and JSON YANG encodings.=0A= Later, as other YANG encodings (e.g., CBOR) are defined, further=0A= instance data formats may be specified.=0A= =0A= The content-data part MUST conform to the content-schema, while=0A= allowing for the exceptions listed below. The content-data part=0A= SHALL follow the encoding rules defined in [RFC7950] for XML and=0A= [RFC7951] for JSON and MUST use UTF-8 character encoding. Content-=0A= data MAY include:=0A= =0A= o metadata, as defined by [RFC7952].=0A= =0A= o origin metadata, as specified in [RFC8526] and [RFC8527]=0A= =0A= o implementation specific metadata relevant to individual data=0A= nodes. Unknown metadata MUST be ignored by users of instance=0A= data, allowing it to be used later for other purposes.=0A= =0A= An instance data set MAY contain data for any number of YANG modules;=0A= if needed it MAY carry the complete configuration and state data for=0A= a server. Default values should be excluded where they do not=0A= provide additional useful data.=0A= =0A= Configuration ("config true") and operational state data ("config=0A= false") MAY be mixed in the instance data file.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 5]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= Instance data files MAY contain partial data sets. This means=0A= "mandatory", "min-elements", "require-instance true", "must" and=0A= "when" constrains MAY be violated.=0A= =0A= The name of the instance data file SHOULD be of the form:=0A= =0A= instance-data-set-name ['@' ( revision-date / timestamp ) ]=0A= ( '.xml' / '.json' )=0A= =0A= E.g., acme-router-modules.xml=0A= E.g., acme-router-modules@2018-01-25.xml=0A= E.g., acme-router-modules@2018-01-25T15_06_34_3+01_00.json=0A= =0A= =0A= If the leaf "name" is present in the instance data header, its value=0A= SHOULD be used for the "instance-data-set-name". If the "revision-=0A= date" is present in the filename it MUST conform to the format of the=0A= revision-date leaf in the YANG model. If the "revision-date" is=0A= present in both the filename and in the instance data header, the=0A= revision date in the file name MUST be set to the latest revision=0A= date inside the instance data set. If the "timestamp" is present in=0A= the filename it MUST conform to the format of the timestamp leaf in=0A= the YANG model except for replacing colons as described below. If=0A= the "timestamp" is present both in the filename and in the instance=0A= data header, the timestamp in the file name SHOULD be set to the=0A= timestamp inside the instance data set; any colons, if present, shall=0A= be replaced by underscores.=0A= =0A= Metadata, information about the data set itself SHOULD be included in=0A= the instance data set. Some metadata items are defined in the YANG=0A= module "ietf-yang-instance-data", but other items MAY be used.=0A= =0A= Metadata MUST include:=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= * Version of the YANG Instance Data format=0A= =0A= Metadata SHOULD include:=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= * Name of the data set=0A= =0A= * Content schema specification (i.e., the "content-schema" node)=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 6]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= * Description of the instance data set. The description SHOULD=0A= contain information whether and how the data can change during=0A= the lifetime of the server=0A= =0A= * An indication whether default values are included. The default=0A= handling uses the concepts defined in [RFC6243], however as=0A= only concepts are re-used, users of instance data sets, do not=0A= need to support RFC 6243.=0A= =0A= 2.1. Specifying the Content Schema=0A= =0A= To properly understand and use an instance data set, the user needs=0A= to know the content-schema. One of the following methods SHOULD be=0A= used:=0A= =0A= Simplified-Inline method: Include the needed information as part=0A= of the instance data set; short specification.=0A= =0A= Inline method: Include the needed information as part of the=0A= instance data set.=0A= =0A= URI method: Include a URI that references another YANG instance=0A= data file. This instance data file will use the same content-=0A= schema as the referenced YANG instance data file. (if you don't=0A= want to repeat the info again and again)=0A= =0A= External Method: Do not include the "content-schema" node; the=0A= user needs to obtain the information through external documents.=0A= =0A= Additional methods e.g., a YANG-package based solution may be added=0A= later.=0A= =0A= Note, the specified content-schema only indicates the set of modules=0A= that were used to define this YANG instance data set. Sometimes=0A= instance data may be used for a server supporting a different YANG=0A= module set (e.g., for the "Preloading default configuration data"=0A= use-case, UC2 in Section 1, the instance data set may not be updated=0A= every time the YANG modules on the server are updated). Whether an=0A= instance data set originally defined using a specific content-schema=0A= is usable with a different other schema depends on many factors=0A= including the amount of differences and the compatibility between the=0A= original and the other schema, considering modules, revisions,=0A= features, deviations, the scope of the instance data, etc.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 7]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= 2.1.1. Inline Method=0A= =0A= The inline-yang-library anydata data node carries instance data=0A= (conforming to ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04) that specifies the=0A= content defining YANG modules including revision, supported features,=0A= deviations and any relevant additional data. An example of the=0A= "inline" method is provided in Figure 2.=0A= =0A= 2.1.2. Simplified-Inline Method=0A= =0A= The instance data set contains a list of content defining YANG=0A= modules including the revision date for each. Usage of this method=0A= implies that the modules are used without any deviations and with all=0A= features supported. YANG modules that are only required to satisfy=0A= import-only dependencies MAY be excluded from the leaf-list. If they=0A= are excluded then the consumer of the instance data set has to apply=0A= the YANG language rules to resolve the imports. An example of the=0A= "simplified-inline" method is provided in Figure 3.=0A= =0A= 2.1.3. URI Method=0A= =0A= The "same-schema-as-file" leaf SHALL contain a URI that references=0A= another YANG instance data file. The current instance data file will=0A= use the same content schema as the referenced file.=0A= =0A= The referenced instance data file MAY have no content-data if it is=0A= used solely for specifying the content-schema.=0A= =0A= If a referenced instance data file is unavailable, content-schema is=0A= unknown.=0A= =0A= The URI method is advantageous when the user wants to avoid the=0A= overhead of specifying the content-schema in each instance data file:=0A= E.g., In UC6, when the system creates a diagnostic file every minute=0A= to document the state of the server.=0A= =0A= An example of the "URI" method is provided in Figure 4.=0A= =0A= 2.2. Examples=0A= =0A= 2.2.1. Documentation of server capabilities=0A= =0A= The example file acme-router-modules@2021-07-29.xml reflects UC1 in=0A= Section 1. It provides a list of supported YANG modules and NETCONF=0A= capabilities for a server. It uses the "inline" method to specify=0A= the content-schema.=0A= =0A= The example uses artwork folding [RFC8792].=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 8]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D NOTE: '\' line wrapping per RFC 8792 = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= acme-router-modules=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= ietf-yang-library=0A= 2019-01-04=0A= =0A= =0A= ietf-netconf-monitoring=0A= 2010-10-04=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= 1956-10-23=0A= Initial version=0A= =0A= Defines the minimal set of modules that any \=0A= acme-router will contain.=0A= info@acme.com=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= ietf-yang-library=0A= 2019-01-04=0A= \=0A= urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-yang-library\=0A= =0A= implement=0A= =0A= =0A= ietf-system=0A= 2014-08-06=0A= urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-system=0A= sys:authentication=0A= sys:local-users=0A= =0A= acme-system-ext=0A= 2018-08-06=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 9]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= implement=0A= =0A= =0A= ietf-netconf-monitoring=0A= 2010-10-04=0A= \=0A= urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-netconf-monitoring\=0A= =0A= implement=0A= =0A= =0A= ietf-yang-types=0A= 2013-07-15=0A= urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-yang-types\=0A= =0A= import=0A= =0A= =0A= acme-system-ext=0A= 2018-08-06=0A= urn:rdns:acme.com:oammodel:acme-system-ext\=0A= =0A= implement=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= \=0A= urn:ietf:params:netconf:capability:validate:1.1\=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Figure 2=0A= =0A= 2.2.2. Preloading default configuration data=0A= =0A= The example file read-only-acm-rules@2021-07-29.xml reflects UC2 in=0A= Section 1. It provides a default rule set for a read-only operator=0A= role. It uses the "simplified-inline" method for specifying the=0A= content-schema.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 10]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= read-only-acm-rules=0A= =0A= ietf-netconf-acm@2018-02-14=0A= =0A= =0A= 1776-07-04=0A= Initial version=0A= =0A= Access control rules for a read-only role.=0A= =0A= =0A= true=0A= deny=0A= deny=0A= =0A= read-only-role=0A= read-only-group=0A= =0A= read-all=0A= *=0A= read=0A= permit=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Figure 3=0A= =0A= 2.2.3. Storing diagnostics data=0A= =0A= The example file acme-router-netconf-=0A= diagnostics@2018-01-25T17_00_38Z.json reflects UC5 in Section 1. An=0A= instance data set is produced by the server every 15 minutes that=0A= contains statistics about the NETCONF server. As a new set is=0A= produced periodically many times a day a revision-date would be=0A= useless; instead a timestamp is included.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 11]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= {=0A= "ietf-yang-instance-data:instance-data-set": {=0A= "name": "acme-router-netconf-diagnostics",=0A= "content-schema": {=0A= "same-schema-as-file": "file:///acme-diagnostics-schema.json"=0A= },=0A= "timestamp": "2018-01-25T17:00:38Z",=0A= "description": ["NETCONF statistics"],=0A= "content-data": {=0A= "ietf-netconf-monitoring:netconf-state": {=0A= "statistics": {=0A= "netconf-start-time ": "2018-12-05T17:45:00Z",=0A= "in-bad-hellos ": "32",=0A= "in-sessions ": "397",=0A= "dropped-sessions ": "87",=0A= "in-rpcs ": "8711",=0A= "in-bad-rpcs ": "408",=0A= "out-rpc-errors ": "408",=0A= "out-notifications": "39007"=0A= }=0A= }=0A= }=0A= }=0A= }=0A= =0A= Figure 4=0A= =0A= 3. YANG Instance Data Model=0A= =0A= 3.1. Tree Diagram=0A= =0A= The following tree diagram [RFC8340] provides an overview of the data=0A= model.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 12]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= module: ietf-yang-instance-data=0A= =0A= structure instance-data-set:=0A= +-- name? string=0A= +-- format-version? string=0A= +-- includes-defaults? enumeration=0A= +-- content-schema=0A= | +-- (content-schema-spec)?=0A= | +--:(simplified-inline)=0A= | | +-- module* module-with-revision-date=0A= | +--:(inline)=0A= | | +-- inline-yang-library =0A= | +--:(uri)=0A= | +-- same-schema-as-file? inet:uri=0A= +-- description* string=0A= +-- contact? string=0A= +-- organization? string=0A= +-- datastore? ds:datastore-ref=0A= +-- revision* [date]=0A= | +-- date string=0A= | +-- description? string=0A= +-- timestamp? yang:date-and-time=0A= +-- content-data? =0A= =0A= 3.2. YANG Model=0A= =0A= This YANG module imports typedefs from [RFC6991], identities from=0A= [RFC8342] and the "structure" extension from [RFC8791]. It also=0A= references [RFC8525] and [RFC6243].=0A= =0A= file "ietf-yang-instance-data@2021-07-29.yang"=0A= // RFC Ed.: replace the date above if the module gets changed in=0A= //anyway during reviews or RFC editor process and remove this note=0A= module ietf-yang-instance-data {=0A= yang-version 1.1;=0A= namespace "urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-yang-instance-data";=0A= prefix yid;=0A= =0A= import ietf-yang-structure-ext {=0A= prefix sx;=0A= reference=0A= "YANG Data Structure Extensions:=0A= draft-ietf-netmod-yang-data-ext-05";=0A= }=0A= import ietf-datastores {=0A= prefix ds;=0A= reference=0A= "RFC 8342: Network Management Datastore Architecture (NMDA)";=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 13]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= }=0A= import ietf-inet-types {=0A= prefix inet;=0A= reference=0A= "RFC 6991: Common YANG Data Types";=0A= }=0A= import ietf-yang-types {=0A= prefix yang;=0A= reference=0A= "RFC 6991: Common YANG Data Types";=0A= }=0A= =0A= organization=0A= "IETF NETMOD Working Group";=0A= contact=0A= "WG Web: =0A= WG List: =0A= =0A= Author: Balazs Lengyel=0A= =0A= =0A= Author: Benoit Claise=0A= ";=0A= description=0A= "The module defines the structure and content of YANG=0A= instance data sets.=0A= =0A= The key words 'MUST', 'MUST NOT', 'REQUIRED', 'SHALL',=0A= 'SHALL NOT', 'SHOULD', 'SHOULD NOT', 'RECOMMENDED',=0A= 'NOT RECOMMENDED', 'MAY', and 'OPTIONAL' in this document=0A= are to be interpreted as described in BCP 14 (RFC 2119)=0A= (RFC 8174) when, and only when, they appear in all=0A= capitals, as shown here.=0A= =0A= Copyright (c) 2021 IETF Trust and the persons identified as=0A= authors of the code. All rights reserved.=0A= =0A= Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or=0A= without modification, is permitted pursuant to, and subject=0A= to the license terms contained in, the Simplified BSD License=0A= set forth in Section 4.c of the IETF Trust's Legal Provisions=0A= Relating to IETF Documents=0A= (http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info).=0A= =0A= This version of this YANG module is part of RFC XXXX; see=0A= the RFC itself for full legal notices.";=0A= // RFC Ed.: replace XXXX with RFC number and remove this note=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 14]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= revision 2021-07-29 {=0A= // RFC Ed.: replace the date above if the module gets changed in=0A= // anyway during reviews or RFC editor process and remove=0A= //this note=0A= description=0A= "Initial revision.";=0A= reference=0A= "RFC XXXX: YANG Instance Data Format";=0A= // RFC Ed.: replace XXXX with RFC number and remove this note=0A= }=0A= =0A= typedef module-with-revision-date {=0A= type string {=0A= pattern '[a-zA-Z_][a-zA-Z0-9\-_.]*'=0A= + '(@\d{4}-(1[0-2]|0[1-9])-(0[1-9]|[1|2][0-9]|3[0-1]))?';=0A= pattern '.|..|[^xX].*|.[^mM].*|..[^lL].*';=0A= }=0A= description=0A= "A type defining a module name and an optional revision=0A= date, e.g. ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04";=0A= }=0A= =0A= sx:structure "instance-data-set" {=0A= description=0A= "A data structure to define a format for YANG instance=0A= data. The majority of the YANG nodes provide meta-data=0A= about the instance data; the instance data itself is=0A= is contained only in the 'content-data' node.";=0A= leaf name {=0A= type string;=0A= description=0A= "An arbitrary name for the YANG instance data set. This=0A= value is primarily used for descriptive purposes. However,=0A= when the instance data set is saved to a file, then the=0A= filename MUST encode the name's value, per Section 3=0A= of RFC XXXX.";=0A= // RFC Ed.: replace XXXX with RFC number and remove this note=0A= }=0A= leaf format-version {=0A= type string {=0A= pattern '\d{4}-(1[0-2]|0[1-9])-(0[1-9]|[1|2][0-9]|3[0-1])';=0A= }=0A= default "2021-07-29";=0A= // RFC Ed.: replace the date above if the module gets changed=0A= // in anyway during reviews or RFC editor process and remove=0A= // this note=0A= description=0A= "The 'revision' of the 'ietf-yang-instance-data' module=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 15]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= used to encode this 'instance-data-set'.";=0A= }=0A= leaf includes-defaults {=0A= type enumeration {=0A= enum report-all {=0A= value 1;=0A= description=0A= "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of=0A= any default values, if the data node=0A= is covered by the instance-data-set.";=0A= }=0A= enum report-all-tagged {=0A= value 2;=0A= description=0A= "All data nodes SHALL be included independent of=0A= any default values if the data node=0A= is covered by the instance-data-set.=0A= Any nodes considered to be default data SHALL=0A= contain a 'default' attribute set to 'true'";=0A= }=0A= enum trim {=0A= value 3;=0A= description=0A= "Data nodes that have a default defined and where=0A= the actual value is equal to the schema default=0A= value SHALL NOT be included.";=0A= }=0A= enum explicit {=0A= value 4;=0A= description=0A= "Data nodes where the actual value is equal to the=0A= schema default value SHALL NOT be included.=0A= However, if the actual value was set by a NETCONF=0A= client or other management application by the way=0A= of an explicit management operation, the data node=0A= SHALL be included if the data node is covered by=0A= the instance-data-set.";=0A= }=0A= }=0A= description=0A= "An instance-data-set may contain or exclude default=0A= data. This leaf indicates whether default data is=0A= included.=0A= =0A= Instance-data-sets MAY contain incomplete data=0A= sets: it may not cover all data nodes. A leaf or=0A= leaf-list MAY be absent because the instance-data-set=0A= does not intend to include the data node independent=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 16]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= of default handling.";=0A= reference=0A= "RFC 6243: With-defaults Capability for NETCONF=0A= RFC 8040: RESTCONF Protocol";=0A= }=0A= container content-schema {=0A= description=0A= "The content schema (i.e., YANG modules) used to create=0A= the instance data set.=0A= If not present the user needs to obtain the information=0A= through external documents.";=0A= choice content-schema-spec {=0A= description=0A= "Specification of the content-schema.";=0A= case simplified-inline {=0A= leaf-list module {=0A= type module-with-revision-date;=0A= min-elements 1;=0A= description=0A= "The list of content defining YANG modules.=0A= =0A= The value SHALL start with the module name.=0A= If the module contains a revision statement the=0A= revision date SHALL be included in the leaf-list=0A= entry.=0A= =0A= E.g., ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04=0A= =0A= Usage of this leaf-list implies the modules are=0A= used without any deviations and with all features=0A= supported. Multiple revisions of the same module=0A= MUST NOT be specified.";=0A= }=0A= }=0A= case inline {=0A= anydata inline-yang-library {=0A= mandatory true;=0A= description=0A= "Instance data corresponding to the=0A= ietf-yang-library@2019-01-04 defining=0A= the set of content defining YANG modules for=0A= this instance-data-set.";=0A= }=0A= }=0A= case uri {=0A= leaf same-schema-as-file {=0A= type inet:uri;=0A= description=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 17]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= "A reference to another YANG instance data file.=0A= This instance data file uses the same=0A= content schema as the referenced file.=0A= =0A= Referenced files using the 'inline' or the=0A= 'simplified-inline' methods MUST be supported.=0A= Referenced files using the 'URI Method' MAY be=0A= supported.=0A= =0A= The URL schemes 'file://' and 'https://' MUST=0A= be supported, other schemes MAY also be=0A= supported.";=0A= }=0A= }=0A= }=0A= }=0A= leaf-list description {=0A= type string;=0A= description=0A= "Description of the instance data set.";=0A= }=0A= leaf contact {=0A= type string;=0A= description=0A= "Contact information for the person or=0A= organization to whom queries concerning this=0A= instance data set should be sent.";=0A= }=0A= leaf organization {=0A= type string;=0A= description=0A= "Organization responsible for the instance=0A= data set.";=0A= }=0A= leaf datastore {=0A= type ds:datastore-ref;=0A= description=0A= "The identity of the datastore with which the=0A= instance data set is associated, e.g., the datastore from=0A= where the data was read or the datastore into which the data=0A= may be loaded or the datastore which is being documented.=0A= If a single specific datastore cannot be specified, the=0A= leaf MUST be absent.=0A= =0A= If this leaf is absent, then the datastore to which the=0A= instance data belongs is unspecified.";=0A= }=0A= list revision {=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 18]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= key "date";=0A= description=0A= "Instance data sets that are produced as=0A= a result of some sort of specification or design effort=0A= SHOULD have at least one revision entry. For every=0A= published editorial change, a new unique revision SHOULD=0A= be added in front of the revisions sequence so that all=0A= revisions are in reverse chronological order.=0A= =0A= In case of instance data sets that are read from=0A= or produced by a server or otherwise subject to=0A= frequent updates or changes, revision=0A= SHOULD NOT be present";=0A= leaf date {=0A= type string {=0A= pattern '\d{4}-(1[0-2]|0[1-9])-(0[1-9]|[1|2][0-9]|3[0-1])';=0A= }=0A= description=0A= "Specifies the date the instance data set=0A= was last modified. Formatted as YYYY-MM-DD";=0A= }=0A= leaf description {=0A= type string;=0A= description=0A= "Description of this revision of the instance data set.";=0A= }=0A= }=0A= leaf timestamp {=0A= type yang:date-and-time;=0A= description=0A= "The date and time when the instance data set=0A= was last modified.=0A= =0A= In case of instance data sets that are read from or=0A= produced by a server or otherwise subject to frequent=0A= updates or changes, timestamp SHOULD be present.=0A= =0A= If both a revision list entry and timestamp are present=0A= the timestamp SHOULD contain the same date as the=0A= latest revision statement.";=0A= }=0A= anydata content-data {=0A= description=0A= "Contains the real instance data.=0A= The data MUST conform to the relevant YANG modules=0A= specified either in the content-schema or in some other=0A= implementation specific manner.";=0A= }=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 19]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= }=0A= }=0A= =0A= =0A= 4. Security Considerations=0A= =0A= The YANG module defined in this document only defines a wrapper=0A= structure specifying a format and a metadata header for YANG instance=0A= data defined by the content-schema. Because of this the security=0A= considerations template for YANG models in section 3.7.1 in [RFC8407]=0A= is not followed. The instance data is designed to be accessed as a=0A= stored file or over any file access method or protocol.=0A= =0A= The document does not specify any method to influence the behavior of=0A= a server.=0A= =0A= Instance data files may contain sensitive data.=0A= =0A= The header part is not security sensitive with one possible=0A= exception. If the URI method is used for specification of the=0A= content schema and the URI includes a username and/or a password, the=0A= instance data file needs to be handled in a secure way as mentioned=0A= below.=0A= =0A= The security sensitivity of the instance data in the content part is=0A= completely dependent on the content schema. Depending on the nature=0A= of the instance data, instance data files MAY need to be handled=0A= securely. The same kind of handling should be applied, that would be=0A= needed for the result of a read operation returning the same data.=0A= =0A= Instance data files should be protected against modification or=0A= unauthorized access using normal file handling mechanisms. Care=0A= should be taken, when copying the original files or providing file=0A= access for additional users, not to reveal information=0A= unintentionally.=0A= =0A= 5. IANA Considerations=0A= =0A= This document registers one URI and one YANG module.=0A= =0A= 5.1. URI Registration=0A= =0A= This document registers one URI in the IETF XML registry [RFC3688].=0A= Following the format in RFC 3688, the following registration is=0A= requested to be made:=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 20]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= URI: urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-yang-instance-data=0A= Registrant Contact: The IESG.=0A= XML: N/A, the requested URI is an XML namespace.=0A= =0A= 5.2. YANG Module Name Registration=0A= =0A= This document registers one YANG module in the YANG Module Names=0A= registry [RFC6020]. Following the format in [RFC6020], the following=0A= registrations are requested:=0A= =0A= name: ietf-yang-instance-data=0A= namespace: urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-yang-instance-data=0A= prefix: yid=0A= reference: RFC XXXX=0A= // RFC Ed.: replace XXXX with RFC number and remove this note=0A= =0A= 6. Acknowledgments=0A= =0A= For their valuable comments, discussions, and feedback, we wish to=0A= acknowledge Andy Bierman, Juergen Schoenwaelder, Rob Wilton, Joe=0A= Clarke, Kent Watsen Martin Bjorklund, Ladislav Lhotka, Qin Wu and=0A= other members of the Netmod WG.=0A= =0A= 7. References=0A= =0A= 7.1. Normative References=0A= =0A= [RFC2119] Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate=0A= Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119,=0A= DOI 10.17487/RFC2119, March 1997,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC6020] Bjorklund, M., Ed., "YANG - A Data Modeling Language for=0A= the Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF)", RFC 6020,=0A= DOI 10.17487/RFC6020, October 2010,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC6243] Bierman, A. and B. Lengyel, "With-defaults Capability for=0A= NETCONF", RFC 6243, DOI 10.17487/RFC6243, June 2011,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC6991] Schoenwaelder, J., Ed., "Common YANG Data Types",=0A= RFC 6991, DOI 10.17487/RFC6991, July 2013,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC7950] Bjorklund, M., Ed., "The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language",=0A= RFC 7950, DOI 10.17487/RFC7950, August 2016,=0A= .=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 21]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= [RFC7951] Lhotka, L., "JSON Encoding of Data Modeled with YANG",=0A= RFC 7951, DOI 10.17487/RFC7951, August 2016,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC7952] Lhotka, L., "Defining and Using Metadata with YANG",=0A= RFC 7952, DOI 10.17487/RFC7952, August 2016,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8174] Leiba, B., "Ambiguity of Uppercase vs Lowercase in RFC=0A= 2119 Key Words", BCP 14, RFC 8174, DOI 10.17487/RFC8174,=0A= May 2017, .=0A= =0A= [RFC8342] Bjorklund, M., Schoenwaelder, J., Shafer, P., Watsen, K.,=0A= and R. Wilton, "Network Management Datastore Architecture=0A= (NMDA)", RFC 8342, DOI 10.17487/RFC8342, March 2018,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8525] Bierman, A., Bjorklund, M., Schoenwaelder, J., Watsen, K.,=0A= and R. Wilton, "YANG Library", RFC 8525,=0A= DOI 10.17487/RFC8525, March 2019,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8526] Bjorklund, M., Schoenwaelder, J., Shafer, P., Watsen, K.,=0A= and R. Wilton, "NETCONF Extensions to Support the Network=0A= Management Datastore Architecture", RFC 8526,=0A= DOI 10.17487/RFC8526, March 2019,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8527] Bjorklund, M., Schoenwaelder, J., Shafer, P., Watsen, K.,=0A= and R. Wilton, "RESTCONF Extensions to Support the Network=0A= Management Datastore Architecture", RFC 8527,=0A= DOI 10.17487/RFC8527, March 2019,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8791] Bierman, A., Bjoerklund, M., and K. Watsen, "YANG Data=0A= Structure Extensions", RFC 8791, DOI 10.17487/RFC8791,=0A= June 2020, .=0A= =0A= 7.2. Informative References=0A= =0A= [RFC3688] Mealling, M., "The IETF XML Registry", BCP 81, RFC 3688,=0A= DOI 10.17487/RFC3688, January 2004,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8340] Bjorklund, M. and L. Berger, Ed., "YANG Tree Diagrams",=0A= BCP 215, RFC 8340, DOI 10.17487/RFC8340, March 2018,=0A= .=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 22]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= [RFC8407] Bierman, A., "Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of=0A= Documents Containing YANG Data Models", BCP 216, RFC 8407,=0A= DOI 10.17487/RFC8407, October 2018,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8632] Vallin, S. and M. Bjorklund, "A YANG Data Model for Alarm=0A= Management", RFC 8632, DOI 10.17487/RFC8632, September=0A= 2019, .=0A= =0A= [RFC8641] Clemm, A. and E. Voit, "Subscription to YANG Notifications=0A= for Datastore Updates", RFC 8641, DOI 10.17487/RFC8641,=0A= September 2019, .=0A= =0A= [RFC8792] Watsen, K., Auerswald, E., Farrel, A., and Q. Wu,=0A= "Handling Long Lines in Content of Internet-Drafts and=0A= RFCs", RFC 8792, DOI 10.17487/RFC8792, June 2020,=0A= .=0A= =0A= [RFC8808] Wu, Q., Lengyel, B., and Y. Niu, "A YANG Data Model for=0A= Factory Default Settings", RFC 8808, DOI 10.17487/RFC8808,=0A= August 2020, .=0A= =0A= Appendix A. Changes between revisions=0A= =0A= RFC Ed.: Remove section "Changes between revisions"=0A= =0A= v17 - v18=0A= =0A= o Added the report-all-tagged mode to the leaf includes-defaults=0A= =0A= v16 - v17=0A= =0A= o Removed default statement from includes-default=0A= =0A= v15 - v16=0A= =0A= o Editorial changes=0A= =0A= v14 - v15=0A= =0A= o Removed reference to revision-label=0A= =0A= o For the inline method made the usage of ietf-yang-=0A= library@2019-01-04 mandatory. Simplified the case "inline" in the=0A= YANG module.=0A= =0A= o Removed the "inline-module" leaf as it does not carry useful=0A= information anymore.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 23]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= o Removed YANG feature=0A= =0A= v13 - v14=0A= =0A= o Added leaf includes-defaults=0A= =0A= o Many small changes based on AD review=0A= =0A= v09 - v13=0A= =0A= o Editorial updates=0A= =0A= v08 - v09=0A= =0A= o Removed reference to similar to get reply=0A= =0A= o Introduced artwork folding in the examples=0A= =0A= v07 - v08=0A= =0A= o Moved compatibility into appendix=0A= =0A= o Renamed yid-version to format-version. Changed format to date of=0A= the YANG module=0A= =0A= o Made support of ietf-yang-library mandatory if inline-content-=0A= schema is supported=0A= =0A= o Many small changes based on WGLC=0A= =0A= v06 - v07=0A= =0A= o Updated terminology, use-cases=0A= =0A= o Many small changes based on WGLC=0A= =0A= v05 - v06=0A= =0A= o Modified module name format, removed .yin or .yang extension=0A= =0A= o Removed pattern for module and inline-module. The usage of=0A= revision-label should also be allowed.=0A= =0A= v04 - v05=0A= =0A= o Updated according to YANG-Doctor review=0A= =0A= o Updated security considerations=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 24]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= o Added a wrapping container for the schema, and renamed the data=0A= nodes in the inline and uri cases.=0A= =0A= o Allowed .yin for simplified-inline schema naming. Made date=0A= optional if it is unavailable in the YANG module.=0A= =0A= o Added a mandatory yid-version to the header metadata to allow=0A= later updates of the module.=0A= =0A= v03 - v04=0A= =0A= o removed entity-tag and last-modified timestamp=0A= =0A= o Added simplified-inline method of content-schema specification=0A= =0A= v02 - v03=0A= =0A= o target renamed to "content-schema" and "content defining YANG=0A= module(s)"=0A= =0A= o Made name of instance data set optional=0A= =0A= o Updated according to draft-ietf-netmod-yang-data-ext-03=0A= =0A= o Clarified that entity-tag and last-modified timestamp are encoded=0A= as metadata. While they contain useful data, the HTTP-header=0A= based encoding from Restconf is not suitable.=0A= =0A= v01 - v02=0A= =0A= o Removed design time from terminology=0A= =0A= o Defined the format of the content-data part by referencing various=0A= RFCs and drafts instead of the result of the get-data and get=0A= operations.=0A= =0A= o Changed target-ptr to a choice=0A= =0A= o Inline target-ptr may include augmenting modules and alternatives=0A= to ietf-yang-library=0A= =0A= o Moved list of target modules into a separate =0A= element.=0A= =0A= o Added backwards compatibility considerations=0A= =0A= v00 - v01=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 25]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= o Added the target-ptr metadata with 3 methods=0A= =0A= o Added timestamp metadata=0A= =0A= o Removed usage of dedicated .yid file extension=0A= =0A= o Added list of use cases=0A= =0A= o Added list of principles=0A= =0A= o Updated examples=0A= =0A= o Moved detailed use case descriptions to appendix=0A= =0A= Appendix B. Backwards Compatibility=0A= =0A= The concept of backwards compatibility and what changes are backwards=0A= compatible are not defined for "instance data sets" as it is highly=0A= dependent on the specific use case and the content-schema.=0A= =0A= In case of "instance data sets" that are the result of design or=0A= specification activity, some changes that may be good to avoid are=0A= listed below.=0A= =0A= YANG uses the concept of managed entities identified by key values;=0A= if the connection between the represented entity and the key value is=0A= not preserved during an update, this may lead to the following=0A= problems.=0A= =0A= o If the key value of a list entry that represents the same managed=0A= entity as before is changed, the user may mistakenly identify the=0A= list entry as new.=0A= =0A= o If the meaning of a list entry is changed, but the key values are=0A= not (e.g., redefining an alarm-type but not changing its alarm-=0A= type-id) the change may not be noticed.=0A= =0A= o If the key value of a previously removed list entry is reused for=0A= a different entity, the change may be misinterpreted as=0A= reintroducing the previous entity.=0A= =0A= Appendix C. Detailed Use Cases=0A= =0A= This section is non-normative.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 26]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= C.1. Use Case 1: Early Documentation of Server Capabilities=0A= =0A= A server has a number of server-capabilities that are defined in YANG=0A= modules and can be retrieved from the server using protocols like=0A= NETCONF or RESTCONF. Server capabilities include:=0A= =0A= o data defined in "ietf-yang-library": YANG modules, submodules,=0A= features, deviations, schema-mounts, and datastores supported=0A= ([RFC8525])=0A= =0A= o alarms supported ([RFC8632])=0A= =0A= o data nodes and subtrees that support or do not support on-change=0A= notifications ([RFC8641])=0A= =0A= o netconf-capabilities in ietf-netconf-monitoring.=0A= =0A= While it is good practice to allow a client to query these=0A= capabilities from the live server, that is often not possible.=0A= =0A= Often when a network node is released, an associated NMS (network=0A= management system) is also released with it. The NMS depends on the=0A= capabilities of the server. During NMS implementation, information=0A= about server capabilities is needed. If the information is=0A= unavailable early in some offline document, but only as instance data=0A= from the live network node, the NMS implementation will be delayed,=0A= because it has to wait until the network node is ready. Also=0A= assuming that all NMS implementors will have a correctly configured=0A= network nodes from which data can be retrieved, is a very expensive=0A= proposition. (An NMS may handle dozens of node types.)=0A= =0A= Network operators often build their own home-grown NMS systems that=0A= need to be integrated with a vendor's network node. The operator=0A= needs to know the network node's server capabilities in order to do=0A= this. Moreover, the network operator's decision to buy a vendor's=0A= product may even be influenced by the network node's OAM feature set=0A= documented as the server's capabilities.=0A= =0A= Beside NMS implementors, system integrators and many others also need=0A= the same information early. Examples could be model driven testing,=0A= generating documentation, etc.=0A= =0A= Most server-capabilities are relatively stable and change only during=0A= upgrade or due to licensing or the addition or removal of hardware.=0A= They are usually defined by a vendor at design time, before the=0A= product is released. It is feasible and advantageous to define/=0A= document them early e.g., in a YANG instance data File.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 27]=0A= =0C=0A= Internet-Draft YANG Instance Data September 2021=0A= =0A= =0A= It is anticipated that a separate IETF document will define in detail=0A= how and which set of server capabilities should be documented.=0A= =0A= C.2. Use Case 2: Preloading Data=0A= =0A= There are parts of the configuration that must be fully configurable=0A= by the operator. However, often a simple default configuration will=0A= be sufficient.=0A= =0A= One example is access control groups/roles and related rules. While=0A= a sophisticated operator may define dozens of different groups, often=0A= a basic (read-only operator, read-write system administrator,=0A= security-administrator) triplet will be enough. Vendors will often=0A= provide such default configuration data to make device configuration=0A= easier for an operator.=0A= =0A= Defining access control data is a complex task. To help, the device=0A= vendor predefines a set of default groups (/nacm:nacm/groups) and=0A= rules for these groups to access specific parts of common models=0A= (/nacm:nacm/rule-list/rule).=0A= =0A= YANG instance data files are used to document and/or preload the=0A= default configuration.=0A= =0A= C.3. Use Case 3: Documenting Factory Default Settings=0A= =0A= Nearly every server has a factory default configuration. If the=0A= system is really badly misconfigured or if the current configuration=0A= is to be abandoned, the system can be reset the default factory=0A= configuration.=0A= =0A= The operator currently needs to know what the default configuration=0A= actually contains. YANG instance data can be used to document the=0A= factory default configuration. See [RFC8808].=0A= =0A= Authors' Addresses=0A= =0A= Balazs Lengyel=0A= Ericsson=0A= =0A= Email: balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com=0A= =0A= =0A= Benoit Claise=0A= Huawei=0A= =0A= Email: benoit.claise@huawei.com=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Lengyel & Claise Expires March 13, 2022 [Page 28]=0A= ------=_NextPart_001_08E6_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0-- ------=_NextPart_000_08E5_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIR8jCCBTgw ggMgoAMCAQICEQCVvhag9y5G8Xs5gnL6i82WMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMDcxFDASBgNVBAoMC1Rl bGlhU29uZXJhMR8wHQYDVQQDDBZUZWxpYVNvbmVyYSBSb290IENBIHYxMB4XDTA3MTAxODEyMDA1 MFoXDTMyMTAxODEyMDA1MFowNzEUMBIGA1UECgwLVGVsaWFTb25lcmExHzAdBgNVBAMMFlRlbGlh U29uZXJhIFJvb3QgQ0EgdjEwggIiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4ICDwAwggIKAoICAQDCvusn8CGj 82kmVX6dxVUWkVz97yG/U4B6LdKRjGMx8Owk8MOl0nJ8EG30N7fl5nx56oy1gouuSLasANxldewq 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------=_NextPart_000_08E5_01D7A5D3.A3DD97D0-- From nobody Thu Sep 9 15:11:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D3A3A0654 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:11:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GOdyz9oxHgRO for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 279733A0529 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H5CsH4T90z2xNk; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 00:11:47 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 00:11:47 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 652918307.1004241-6e8f4019a83322d855adfb58585389a6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8DAC595F-8C6E-4853-AB62-86D4ACE96A76@tzi.org> References: To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unknown idnits error X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 22:11:56 -0000 I already gave a partial answer in = = But it sure would be nice to get an update on where we are with respect = to strengthening the idnits implementation and backend. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 9 15:37:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F613A09B5 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:37:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.069 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.069 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7xaF9kk9V9iB for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECB653A09A4 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 189MbU9I013628 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 17:37:30 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631227050; bh=wNlnXQK2G6ZnmuC9/ktwwp9GD2i0Y5d8j6r5/smFhtY=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=apqrSQXWzPoOrWNuhjojklMQHuovNh6S4SheIfF7UUHXX6k5FTIhtUy4JPZ5ktpTT HR5uPlTSivnfoVmtuhf3UydH+i+cMHzAG6Ldx7QtJGwh2096gFwEAm5iKLNV0GSTbC yLvc6je2LCZS5QTOf6DQvMursZl1ybqN+s239q08= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <4b60bc9b-f907-a155-ace2-7db2e7f222a2@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 17:37:25 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BE3A5E78E0C7F2F5FAAA7000" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unknown idnits error X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 22:37:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BE3A5E78E0C7F2F5FAAA7000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Balazs - Please try using https://www.ietf.org/tools/idnits instead. I do not currently get the warning you are seeing when I use that instance of the service. On 9/9/21 4:37 PM, Balzs Lengyel wrote: > > Hello, > > I am trying to check a new version of my > draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18 (attached). > > I tried to check the draft running the web based idnits tool. > https://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/ > > > The drafts previous version did not have any idnits errors or > warnings. Now suddenly I get: > == Couldn't figure out when the document was first submitted -- there may > comments or warnings related to the use of a disclaimer for pre-RFC5378 > work that could not be issued because of this. Please check the Legal > Provisions document athttps://trustee.ietf.org/license-info to determine > if you need the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer. > I did not change any boilerplate info. Why do I get this warning and > how to get rid of it? > It is impossible to understand the problem and how to handle it from > this error message. > Please help, Balazs > > -- > > Balazs Lengyel Senior > Specialist Ericsson Hungary Ltd. > > Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: > Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --------------BE3A5E78E0C7F2F5FAAA7000 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I do not currently get the warning you are seeing when I use that instance of the service.

On 9/9/21 4:37 PM, Balzs Lengyel wrote:

Hello,

I am trying to check a new version of my draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-18 (attached).

I tried to check the draft running the web based idnits tool. https://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/

The drafts previous version did not have any idnits errors or warnings. Now suddenly I get: 
== Couldn't figure out when the document was first submitted -- there may
 comments or warnings related to the use of a disclaimer for pre-RFC5378
 work that could not be issued because of this. Please check the Legal
 Provisions document at https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info to determine
 if you need the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer.
I did not change any boilerplate info. Why do I get this warning and how to get rid of it?
It is impossible to understand the problem and how to handle it from this error message. 
Please help, Balazs

--

Balazs Lengyel Senior Specialist Ericsson Hungary Ltd.

Mobile: +36-70-330-7909 email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com


___________________________________________________________
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This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
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List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--------------BE3A5E78E0C7F2F5FAAA7000-- From nobody Thu Sep 9 15:45:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B28D3A09BD for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:45:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8g7Af4JC46CK for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E751F3A09D1 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 189Mj4Hi016355 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 17:45:04 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631227504; bh=IZMybW5t7gyNx97HiOx99YrebUwcXVIfi0vN015U0UI=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=gnn5ibV9J0FwSHElmn6C4O9CUYSRV4MXRR1cN4uNBEOvBnyMFh4ybnTdMIBotcmEr 0nvH8vf0YMjWPJPfklvkeLA7sQeDQPNnS+Pt6mAl0lRhW79/Qq9c5YeUpuvk9IKBoH MHNBeOiky7ywykLX4lOfYrpbC9rnPats1WqKpAaA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <8DAC595F-8C6E-4853-AB62-86D4ACE96A76@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 17:44:58 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8DAC595F-8C6E-4853-AB62-86D4ACE96A76@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unknown idnits error X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 22:45:12 -0000 I think the incremental improvement of the existing idnits that you are=20 asking for here has already taken place. The version running at www.ietf.org feeds off of the datatracker. I'll=20 follow up on improving what happens when someone uses the tools.ietf.org = url. Work on completely replacing the current implementation is underway. RjS On 9/9/21 5:11 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > I already gave a partial answer in > > But it sure would be nice to get an update on where we are with respect= to strengthening the idnits implementation and backend. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Thu Sep 9 19:43:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32BF63A1407 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:43:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wIkxK9MNpUny for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC35A3A1406 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 804A5548049 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:42:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 726B34E0AE4; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:42:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:42:54 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Propose slides for interims datatracker option ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 02:43:08 -0000 Hi folks - was just wondering if there is a datatracker option to propose slides for interrims, because if there is, then it is hiding itself well from me ;-) If not, then it would be lovely to also get this option.. (but wouldn't want to assign a priority to it relative to anything els. Just observing) Cheers toerless From nobody Thu Sep 9 23:04:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 895363A1B83 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 23:04:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zLuRn-7EI70J for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 23:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75E843A1B82 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 23:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H5QL703qjz2xMw; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:03:58 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:03:58 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Toerless Eckert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Propose slides for interims datatracker option ? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 06:04:10 -0000 On 10. Sep 2021, at 04:42, Toerless Eckert wrote: >=20 > Hi folks - was just wondering if there is a datatracker option to=20 > propose slides for interrims, because if there is, then it is hiding = itself > well from me ;-) It is indeed well-hidden. Go to: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/upcoming Log in to datatracker (!). In the column =E2=80=9Cmeetings=E2=80=9D, click on the meeting of your = choice, say: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2021-core-10/session/core Click =E2=80=9CPropose slides=E2=80=9D. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 9 23:19:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D35D3A1BF8 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 23:19:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DS9ifNyAIUB7 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 23:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5BB73A1BF6 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 23:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H5Qh95jMnz2xH0; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:19:37 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:19:37 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <00A950E3-8FD4-4D51-95F5-C870D34FA413@tzi.org> References: To: Toerless Eckert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Am I logged in? (Re: Propose slides for interims datatracker option ?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 06:19:49 -0000 On 10. Sep 2021, at 08:03, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > Log in to datatracker (!). =E2=80=A6 and that line is part of a general annoyance with datatracker. There are many functions that only work (or change behavior) if you are = logged in. These functions are simply not shown (e.g., propose slides) or silently = work differently if you are not. Normally, you are still logged in with datatracker from the last thing = you did there. But random events can log you out, and it takes some time to notice that = the weirds behavior you are seeing from datatracker is because it = doesn=E2=80=99t work right any more when logged out. I now have this nervous glance to the menu bar whenever I=E2=80=99m = using datatracker =E2=80=94 does it say =E2=80=9CUser=E2=80=9D or = =E2=80=9Ccabo@tzi.org=E2=80=9D. At least the visualization of being properly logged in might be stronger = (change colour of the menu bar etc.) to alert one that datatracker is = not going to work right. Functions that are disabled without login could also still be shown and = ask for login when invoked. (But maybe the trapdoor effect is intended, to fend off the unwashed? Also, this probably doesn=E2=80=99t make sense for minority functions = like those afforded to WG chairs and ADs.) (A weakly related gripe is that functions that depend on datatracker = login like meetecho are structured in a way that the detour through = datatracker requires explicit confirmation =E2=80=94 which is fine for = random relying parties using the datatracker OAuth, but should not be = necessary for core IETF functions.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Sep 10 11:03:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B45D23A11FA for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:03:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z9yJZEbU7CJ0 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 843533A11F8 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:51]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D98A54804A; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:03:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 44B254E0C4D; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:03:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:03:40 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: References: <00A950E3-8FD4-4D51-95F5-C870D34FA413@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <00A950E3-8FD4-4D51-95F5-C870D34FA413@tzi.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Am I logged in? (Re: Propose slides for interims datatracker option ?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 18:03:54 -0000 Thanks Carsten. I agree with your points about the GUI being confusing. Unfortunately, i have to confess that i was probably yesterday evening just blind to see the "Propose Slides" button at the bottom of the material page.. Not sure *sigh*... But i am pretty sure i was logged in yesterday too. But good to know its all consistent with normal meetings. Cheers Toerless On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 08:19:37AM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 10. Sep 2021, at 08:03, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > > > Log in to datatracker (!). > > … and that line is part of a general annoyance with datatracker. > > There are many functions that only work (or change behavior) if you are logged in. > These functions are simply not shown (e.g., propose slides) or silently work differently if you are not. > > Normally, you are still logged in with datatracker from the last thing you did there. > But random events can log you out, and it takes some time to notice that the weirds behavior you are seeing from datatracker is because it doesn’t work right any more when logged out. > > I now have this nervous glance to the menu bar whenever I’m using datatracker — does it say “User” or “cabo@tzi.org”. > At least the visualization of being properly logged in might be stronger (change colour of the menu bar etc.) to alert one that datatracker is not going to work right. > > Functions that are disabled without login could also still be shown and ask for login when invoked. > (But maybe the trapdoor effect is intended, to fend off the unwashed? > Also, this probably doesn’t make sense for minority functions like those afforded to WG chairs and ADs.) > > (A weakly related gripe is that functions that depend on datatracker login like meetecho are structured in a way that the detour through datatracker requires explicit confirmation — which is fine for random relying parties using the datatracker OAuth, but should not be necessary for core IETF functions.) > > Grüße, Carsten -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon Sep 13 13:55:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A523A0D24 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:55:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IMVBW6Aib0WC for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53F003A0D1E for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388B9471C6A7 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:55:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tcq2W64-pQQH for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CF8DC471C69E for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:55:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Message-Id: <48194B77-AC9A-425D-9E85-12FA33A66E8A@ietf.org> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 08:55:05 +1200 To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Design workshops - concept for discussion tomorrow X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 20:55:16 -0000 Hi All Robert and I want to discuss at the tools meeting tomorrow a proposal = for a series of design workshops that help plan future development for a = specific topic. The workshop would include a presentation on each topic = and the various components, current requirements, known issues, existing = plans and ideas, then open up for a general discussion on each of these. = The workshop would be written up, shared and that writeup referred to = as the plan develops and in future community discussions. We are imagining a 2-3 hour remote workshop, open to all. The topics we have identified so far are: 0. Mail processing - IDN support - What a Mailman 3 migration would require - What would be different with Mailman 3 - what would have to change in the rest of the processing chain - Spam abatement - Virus scanning - Spamassassin - Postconfirm - Use of mailman's mechanisms - Ability to moderate a given participant - DMARC rewriting - Alias maintenance (-chairs@, -authors@, etc.) 1. Mail archive and related user interfaces - Mail archive tool usage and issues - Potential mail archive tool improvements - Possible integration of IM chat logs - Statistics endpoint (# posts per list per day, etc.) - Usage of IMAP - Self-service subscription management in Datatracker 2. RFC and I-D publication - Documenting the different sites and different access mechanisms - Varying URL constructs across those sites - SEO and directing people to the authoritative site - doc.ietf.org idea 3. Datatracker refactoring - Current objects: document, group, person, etc - Adding an optional 'affiliation' to person - Making RFCs a separate document type - Current interfaces: agenda, submission, etc - Possible new interface to find a person - Making the agenda interface mobile friendly - Possible integration of CodiMD-like interface directly into = Datatracker - Role management - Document roles - What could be removed? Happy to take comments now or at our meeting tomorow. Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Tue Sep 14 11:31:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B77DF3A2847; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:31:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=telefonica.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L2fkiHlAWkS7; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR05-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-vi1eur05on2092.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.21.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7FB93A2846; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: telefonica.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: PAXPR06MB7872.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b60bae56-3a4b-4bfe-21d7-08d977adde16 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Sep 2021 18:31:28.7585 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9744600e-3e04-492e-baa1-25ec245c6f10 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: zKjodIdahjqSEw5RrhBI4RHYA3HcdojYq9OP4Qgdt+opMtZEHq9XYXFTwSCcv4odH9Hdqe+T/dkKgU0N0lHF/u0jJI1yJBNm2APyNPcuoxq9ssvfeu/fCYZD7Q180Kb/ X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PR1PR06MB4876 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Design workshops - concept for discussion tomorrow X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:31:38 -0000 Hi all, As now it is a common practice in some IETF drafts to have comments= and contributions tracked in github via issues and pull requests (full gui= dance documented in RFC 8874), would it make sense to incorporate in datat= racker a potential integration with github? For example incorporate a query= of the issues /PRs of the draft complementary to current mailing list quer= y (or even maintaining a copy of the issues for the records). Best Regards, Oscar -----Mensaje original----- De: Tools-discuss En nombre de Jay Daley Enviado el: lunes, 13 de septiembre de 2021 22:55 Para: tools-discuss Asunto: [Tools-discuss] Design workshops - concept for discussion tomorrow Hi All Robert and I want to discuss at the tools meeting tomorrow a proposal for a= series of design workshops that help plan future development for a specifi= c topic. The workshop would include a presentation on each topic and the v= arious components, current requirements, known issues, existing plans and i= deas, then open up for a general discussion on each of these. The workshop= would be written up, shared and that writeup referred to as the plan devel= ops and in future community discussions. We are imagining a 2-3 hour remote workshop, open to all. The topics we have identified so far are: 0. Mail processing - IDN support - What a Mailman 3 migration would require - What would be different with Mailman 3 - what would have to change in the rest of the processing chain - Spam abatement - Virus scanning - Spamassassin - Postconfirm - Use of mailman's mechanisms - Ability to moderate a given participant - DMARC rewriting - Alias maintenance (-chairs@, -authors@, etc.) 1. Mail archive and related user interfaces - Mail archive tool usage and issues - Potential mail archive tool improvements - Possible integration of IM chat logs - Statistics endpoint (# posts per list per day, etc.) - Usage of IMAP - Self-service subscription management in Datatracker 2. RFC and I-D publication - Documenting the different sites and different access mechanisms - Varying URL constructs across those sites - SEO and directing people to the authoritative site - doc.ietf.org idea 3. Datatracker refactoring - Current objects: document, group, person, etc - Adding an optional 'affiliation' to person - Making RFCs a separate document type - Current interfaces: agenda, submission, etc - Possible new interface to find a person - Making the agenda interface mobile friendly - Possible integration of CodiMD-like interface directly into Datatracker - Role management - Document roles - What could be removed? Happy to take comments now or at our meeting tomorow. Jay -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org ___________________________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org This list is for discus= sion, not for action requests or bug reports. * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org List info (inclu= ding how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discu= ss ________________________________ Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu= ede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclus= ivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario ind= icado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o= copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislaci= =F3n vigente. 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Se n=E3o =E9 vossa senhoria o des= tinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=E7=E3o, div= ulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode estar proibida em virtude= da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe = que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destru= i=E7=E3o From nobody Tue Sep 14 11:34:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 752BE3A2860; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:34:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lQZ_DjNtll-o; 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Tue, 14 Sep 2021 19:34:31 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 18EIJa0V012139; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 14:34:30 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.32]) by prod-mail-ppoint6.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3b0qsywey7-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 14 Sep 2021 14:34:30 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 14:34:29 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Tue, 14 Sep 2021 14:34:29 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: =?utf-8?B?T3NjYXIgR29uesOhbGV6IGRlIERpb3M=?= , Jay Daley , tools-discuss Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Design workshops - concept for discussion tomorrow Thread-Index: AQHXqOGtSWOwJTt2AUiTybg5cZMBhKukHsAA//+9yIA= Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:34:28 +0000 Message-ID: <8280E0A9-73D3-4C2A-B288-3F707C12CDAF@akamai.com> References: <48194B77-AC9A-425D-9E85-12FA33A66E8A@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.53.21090501 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.61) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint6 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Design workshops - concept for discussion tomorrow X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:34:38 -0000 WW91IGNhbiBkbyB0aGF0IGFscmVhZHksIGJ5IGRlZmluaW5nIGFuICJleHRlcm5hbCByZWZlcmVu Y2UiICBUaGV5J3JlIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBhdCB0aGUgV0cgYW5kIGRvY3VtZW50IGxldmVsLiAgQSBm ZXcgc3RhbmRhcmRzIGV4dC1yZWZzIGFyZSBhbHJlYWR5IGRlZmluZWQsIGluY2x1ZGluZyBHaXRI dWIgcmVwby4NCg0KDQo= From nobody Wed Sep 15 09:14:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D63273A207A; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:14:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n1TF_VOiGnoC; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA33A3A2072; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18FGESdp024606 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:14:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631722469; bh=UocPqsojaWfSY1TXlPET4qzluIyqswpRZsrjm1azkZg=; h=To:Cc:Reply-To:From:Subject:Date; b=KdvI618rd+6CwE3gH/5YcpqbhicVDOOXZAKdIRvHtNgXLih22dYxzQIk03gcmDqVl MIOlxmdIiu60yUclDtzpMLsu9RqThgLKQoAXLR3eBFJzrpr45t0ukqlnpawl/FsmhQ SF0vPd9BTbmyso/kwSSLS11WNPwOd7MQc583USn4= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss Cc: ietf@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org Reply-To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <3683aa58-42e4-c047-5dbc-6f388a986d6a@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:14:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Closing the chat trial instances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:14:37 -0000 All - We are turning off the chat trial instances. This includes: xmpp-trial1.ietf.org, matrix-trial1.ief.org, and zulip-trial1.ietf.org We've kept them running quite a bit longer than originally planned, and we think we have the information we needed to gather from them. Going forward: We are in the process of setting up a standing Zulip server and will investigate whether we can integrate that directly with Meetecho as the backend for messaging during Meetecho sessions. We will have XMPP-Zulip bridging in place as long as both services are active. See the service plan at https://github.com/rjsparks/zulip-implementation/blob/main/Service-Plan.md We received feedback from a small number of people that providing a Jabber login service was useful, but haven't seen a lot of use of it. We're not currently planning on providing this service going forward. Anyone relying on it should take advantage of other existing services. There is an updated list of alternatives at https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/groupchat/. We are not planning to continue provide a Matrix service. Interest was limited, and it presented a more difficult set of operational challenges. See https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/AI5hBp1qnLAH-S9T7XhLF-omFS0/ We have heard and continue to keep in mind the feedback to prefer IETF standards. Timing: The matrix trial server will be taken down now. The xmpp trial server will be taken down in two weeks, giving the few people who had been using it an opportunity to set up something else. The zulip trial server will be taken down shortly after the standing server is made available to the community. Please take care to send all discussion to tools-discuss@ietf.org RjS From nobody Wed Sep 15 11:22:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359E83A098D; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:21:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6jGM9p-lkXdD; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 857EE3A0989; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18FILqwB071184 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:21:53 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631730113; bh=4r9L8aTxnzUoytT7u1OtjC8VWV3DHYQUCjxd0ixgbV8=; h=To:Cc:Reply-To:From:Subject:Date; b=n9PduH4bWc0iB/QTF1fF1uYmCcXA7ON7j0eo1rxYMhz7MoFCUrva928jCvLNSRvB1 M/d4vuQHh+a/tQRW9iDxW9X9n4ihU8pbW2bIEqHJPY0c7fKP8GVS/7kyWQFS31z6dw q+XuJaH/spUSDX4bGK1fpqxDNj9ErRCo4egFHlho= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss Cc: ietf@ietf.org, Working Chairs Reply-To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:21:47 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:22:00 -0000 Be aware that any content at notes.ietf.org is intended to be ephemeral. We expect the content to remain available as long as we are running the service, but there is no guarantee it will be preserved. At some point in the future, it may be replaced with another service, and the content will not be automatically extracted. Anything that should be archived needs to be stored at an archival service. For instance, minutes should be captured in the datatracker as minutes documents. If it isn't obvious where to keep any given content, contact a relevant member of the leadership. Please keep in mind that the content at notes.ietf.org may not be there in the future as you choose share URLs to it in other places. Robert Sparks Tools team chair From nobody Wed Sep 15 11:27:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F5EA3A09F0; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:27:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cgJfVPRn4_lT; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD7D43A09EA; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18FIRAmm073193 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:27:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631730431; bh=P8iEjVTBYf89QfLFpsS8giSZEJR3k39bTSXWr2STOnY=; h=To:Cc:Reply-To:From:Subject:Date; b=tlE2hxYgBMid3pu3OG5UqtuXy+mJd8/zGhbnLfACTqw79o6ALLQjQPa6c21nVx1M7 +ZdH+hkbZWNIfPThp5Ke0l4vNQhAgmcjPtsl1gN5KfdPT33zlbATT3OtDAbRWnyp9v WM+lulCBbd9lmWRjDemSuzFmkW61vh5h+OIL2MGA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss Cc: ietf@ietf.org, Working Chairs Reply-To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <2b7729b5-804a-9144-9284-4d141f45fd89@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:27:05 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] etherpad.ietf.org will be shut down X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:27:19 -0000 The etherpad service has been replaced by the service at notes.ietf.org (previously codimd.ietf.org). etherpad.ietf.org will be taken down in just over two weeks (on or soon after October 1). Any content you wish to preserve that's at etherpad.ietf.org should be moved to an appropriate place. Active notes that are not intended to be archival can be moved to notes.ietf.org. See for a discussion of what to do with content that should be archived. We will not be attempting automatic extraction of content from etherpad.ietf.org. We will redirect etherpad.ietf.org to the main page of notes.ietf.org. 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boundary="RFyMOCmawDtRWEw7NdKSMXpDpsY0rUjUv"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: tools-discuss Message-ID: <8c02bd21-8574-eaf7-d890-74b060d05174@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Manycouches] Closing the chat trial instances References: <3683aa58-42e4-c047-5dbc-6f388a986d6a@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <3683aa58-42e4-c047-5dbc-6f388a986d6a@nostrum.com> --RFyMOCmawDtRWEw7NdKSMXpDpsY0rUjUv Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------34C2C36EA4AAFF65E5EB4EDA" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------34C2C36EA4AAFF65E5EB4EDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pity about the matrix gateway going. If it were possible to document how someone with e.g. their own homeserver could setup interop with the ongoing IETF IM services that'd be great. I understand if that's not a priority and might need some possibly tricky anti-spam policies to be setup/agreed. I'd be willing to try setup interop with my homeserver if that were a possibility sometime. Cheers, S. On 15/09/2021 17:14, Robert Sparks wrote: > All - >=20 > We are turning off the chat trial instances. This includes: >=20 > xmpp-trial1.ietf.org, matrix-trial1.ief.org, and zulip-trial1.ietf.org >=20 > We've kept them running quite a bit longer than originally planned, and= =20 > we think we have the information we needed to gather from them. >=20 > Going forward: >=20 > We are in the process of setting up a standing Zulip server and will=20 > investigate whether we can integrate that directly with Meetecho as the= =20 > backend for messaging during Meetecho sessions. We will have XMPP-Zulip= =20 > bridging in place as long as both services are active. See the service = > plan at=20 > https://github.com/rjsparks/zulip-implementation/blob/main/Service-Plan= =2Emd >=20 > We received feedback from a small number of people that providing a=20 > Jabber login service was useful, but haven't seen a lot of use of it.=20 > We're not currently planning on providing this service going forward.=20 > Anyone relying on it should take advantage of other existing services. = > There is an updated list of alternatives at=20 > https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/groupchat/. >=20 > We are not planning to continue provide a Matrix service. Interest was = > limited, and it presented a more difficult set of operational=20 > challenges. See=20 > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/AI5hBp1qnLAH-S9T7Xh= LF-omFS0/=20 >=20 >=20 > We have heard and continue to keep in mind the feedback to prefer IETF = > standards. >=20 > Timing: >=20 > The matrix trial server will be taken down now. > The xmpp trial server will be taken down in two weeks, giving the few=20 > people who had been using it an opportunity to set up something else. > The zulip trial server will be taken down shortly after the standing=20 > server is made available to the community. >=20 > Please take care to send all discussion to tools-discuss@ietf.org >=20 > RjS >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches --------------34C2C36EA4AAFF65E5EB4EDA Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: OpenPGP public key 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tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 19:22:22 -0000 --000000000000b5ed1d05cc0d9d36 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Robert, This is the kind of PSA that is often made and ignored and then people come to rely on the existing state of affairs, making it hard to change, ISTM that if you want to actually have it be easy to deprecate the data then you probably want to make it actively unreliable now. -Ekr On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 11:22 AM Robert Sparks wrote: > Be aware that any content at notes.ietf.org is intended to be ephemeral. > > We expect the content to remain available as long as we are running the > service, but there is no guarantee it will be preserved. At some point > in the future, it may be replaced with another service, and the content > will not be automatically extracted. > > Anything that should be archived needs to be stored at an archival > service. For instance, minutes should be captured in the datatracker as > minutes documents. If it isn't obvious where to keep any given content, > contact a relevant member of the leadership. > > Please keep in mind that the content at notes.ietf.org may not be there > in the future as you choose share URLs to it in other places. > > Robert Sparks > Tools team chair > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000b5ed1d05cc0d9d36 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Robert,

This is the kind = of PSA that is often made and ignored and then people come to rely on the e= xisting state of affairs, making it hard to change, ISTM that if you want t= o actually have it be easy to deprecate the data then you probably want to = make it actively unreliable now.

-Ekr


On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 11:22 AM Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:
Be aware that any content a= t no= tes.ietf.org is intended to be ephemeral.

We expect the content to remain available as long as we are running the service, but there is no guarantee it will be preserved. At some point
in the future, it may be replaced with another service, and the content will not be automatically extracted.

Anything that should be archived needs to be stored at an archival
service. For instance, minutes should be captured in the datatracker as minutes documents. If it isn't obvious where to keep any given content,=
contact a relevant member of the leadership.

Please keep in mind that the content at notes.ietf.org may not be there in the future as you choose share URLs to it in other places.

Robert Sparks
Tools team chair

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9c32f7bf-947d-46b1-3245-08d978882e02 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Sep 2021 20:34:13.1162 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: dD3uD7coJbH6YNLY6MNIUM0jeopRIYvEpXwVte5tPhVpzFyVN50lLK6IGEH1z/tRXwJNWsMpA4pPb1vP+avdq3JlDHrmTjHibh88eFcTamM= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PR3PR07MB6857 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Closing the chat trial instances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 20:34:22 -0000 SGVsbG8sDQpJIHRoaW5rIEkgd2FzIGFtb25nIHRoZSBwZW9wbGUgd2hvIGV4cHJlc3NlZCB0aGlz 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IHRha2VuIGRvd24gc2hvcnRseSBhZnRlciB0aGUgc3RhbmRpbmcgc2VydmVyIGlzIG1hZGUgYXZh aWxhYmxlIHRvIHRoZSBjb21tdW5pdHkuDQoNClBsZWFzZSB0YWtlIGNhcmUgdG8gc2VuZCBhbGwg ZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiB0byB0b29scy1kaXNjdXNzQGlldGYub3JnDQoNClJqUw0KDQoNCg0KDQo= From nobody Wed Sep 15 16:41:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43DBB3A0803 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:41:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SkHPEpjgrVH8 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F0773A07F9 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4974972195; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:41:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p5PN3qQRfY1d; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3FAAE4972180; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:41:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DE10C38E-6364-4B29-AFFA-7BAA8E16354B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:41:05 +1200 In-Reply-To: Cc: tools-discuss To: "Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" References: <3683aa58-42e4-c047-5dbc-6f388a986d6a@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Closing the chat trial instances X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 23:41:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DE10C38E-6364-4B29-AFFA-7BAA8E16354B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Julien > On 16/09/2021, at 8:34 AM, Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - = FR/Paris-Saclay) wrote: >=20 > Hello, > I think I was among the people who expressed this was useful, and = failed to use it in the last two meetings because I (wrongly ?) relied = on Meetecho. I should have tried the new servers/services (which I = failed to notice), but was busy with other things. > I'd like to observe that we can't complain that people are not using = Jabber enough, and at the same time remove things that make Jabber = easier to use/configure. Making Jabber harder than it already is will = simply decrease usage. We might have a plan to use only Meetecho going = forward, but this is a different issue. > Arguably the instructions at = https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/groupchat/ = got much better than in = the past, but the notion of IETF having its own server(s) instead of = relying on third parties for a somewhat critical service sounded like a = sane idea. > I get the same impression as for the (absence of) debate on the = destruction of the FTP service: we cut it because is not used enough, = regardless of the inconvenience to people who use it or might use it. = Cost cutting in IETF is relatively new, and to me it's not pretty, I = hope it's worth it. This is not a cost cutting decision and we do not make a cost saving = from it. cheers Jay > Best regards, > Julien. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf > On = Behalf Of Robert Sparks > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 6:14 PM > To: tools-discuss > > Cc: ietf@ietf.org ; manycouches@ietf.org = > Subject: Closing the chat trial instances >=20 > All - >=20 > We are turning off the chat trial instances. This includes: >=20 > xmpp-trial1.ietf.org, matrix-trial1.ief.org, and zulip-trial1.ietf.org >=20 > We've kept them running quite a bit longer than originally planned, = and we think we have the information we needed to gather from them. >=20 > Going forward: >=20 > We are in the process of setting up a standing Zulip server and will = investigate whether we can integrate that directly with Meetecho as the = backend for messaging during Meetecho sessions. We will have XMPP-Zulip = bridging in place as long as both services are active. See the service = plan at = https://github.com/rjsparks/zulip-implementation/blob/main/Service-Plan.md= >=20 > We received feedback from a small number of people that providing a = Jabber login service was useful, but haven't seen a lot of use of it.=20 > We're not currently planning on providing this service going forward.=20= > Anyone relying on it should take advantage of other existing services.=20= > There is an updated list of alternatives at = https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/groupchat/. >=20 > We are not planning to continue provide a Matrix service. Interest was = limited, and it presented a more difficult set of operational = challenges. See = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/AI5hBp1qnLAH-S9T7XhLF-= omFS0/ >=20 > We have heard and continue to keep in mind the feedback to prefer IETF = standards. >=20 > Timing: >=20 > The matrix trial server will be taken down now. > The xmpp trial server will be taken down in two weeks, giving the few = people who had been using it an opportunity to set up something else. > The zulip trial server will be taken down shortly after the standing = server is made available to the community. >=20 > Please take care to send all discussion to tools-discuss@ietf.org >=20 > RjS >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org = > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: = webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org = > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss = --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_DE10C38E-6364-4B29-AFFA-7BAA8E16354B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = Julien

On 16/09/2021, at 8:34 AM, Maisonneuve, = Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) <julien.maisonneuve@nokia.com> wrote:

Hello,
I think I was among the people who expressed this was useful, = and failed to use it in the last two meetings because I (wrongly ?) = relied on Meetecho. I should have tried the new servers/services (which = I failed to notice), but was busy with other things.
I'd like to observe that we = can't complain that people are not using Jabber enough, and at the same = time remove things that  make Jabber easier to use/configure. = Making Jabber harder than it already is will simply decrease usage. We = might have a plan to use only Meetecho going forward, but this is a = different issue.
Arguably the instructions at https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/groupchat/ got much better than in the = past, but the notion of IETF having its own server(s) instead of relying = on third parties for a somewhat critical service sounded like a sane = idea.
I get the = same impression as for the (absence of) debate on the destruction of the = FTP service: we cut it because is not used enough, regardless of the = inconvenience to people who use it or might use it. Cost cutting in IETF = is relatively new, and to me it's not pretty,  I hope it's worth = it.

This = is not a cost cutting decision and we do not make a cost saving from = it.

cheers
Jay
Best = regards,
Julien.

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Robert Sparks
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 6:14 PM
To: tools-discuss <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
Cc: ietf@ietf.org; manycouches@ietf.org
Subject: Closing the chat trial = instances

All = -

We are = turning off the chat trial instances. This includes:

xmpp-trial1.ietf.org, = matrix-trial1.ief.org, and zulip-trial1.ietf.org

We've kept them running quite a bit longer than originally = planned, and we think we have the information we needed to gather from = them.

Going = forward:

We are in the = process of setting up a standing Zulip server and will investigate = whether we can integrate that directly with Meetecho as the backend for = messaging during Meetecho sessions. We will have XMPP-Zulip bridging in = place as long as both services are active. See the service plan at https://github.com/rjsparks/zulip-implementation/blob/main/Serv= ice-Plan.md

We received feedback from a small number of people that = providing a Jabber login service was useful, but haven't seen a lot of = use of it. 
We're not currently planning on = providing this service going forward. 
Anyone relying on it should take = advantage of other existing services. 
There is an updated list of = alternatives at https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/groupchat/.

We are not planning to continue = provide a Matrix service. Interest was limited, and it presented a more = difficult set of operational challenges. See https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/AI5hBp1qnLA= H-S9T7XhLF-omFS0/

We have heard and continue to keep in mind the feedback to = prefer IETF standards.

Timing:

The matrix trial server will be taken down now.
The xmpp trial server will be = taken down in two weeks, giving the few people who had been using it an = opportunity to set up something else.
The zulip trial server will be taken down shortly after the = standing server is made available to the community.

Please take care to send all = discussion to tools-discuss@ietf.org

RjS




___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss = mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not = for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to = Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

-- 
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_DE10C38E-6364-4B29-AFFA-7BAA8E16354B-- From nobody Thu Sep 16 00:40:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14B533A1CF4; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 00:40:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Au2v0Y0kDAPA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 00:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 551303A1DB0; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 00:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H98B343txz2xNX; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:39:55 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:39:55 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss , IETF discussion list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Working Chairs X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 07:40:17 -0000 On 15. Sep 2021, at 21:21, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > Hi Robert, >=20 > This is the kind of PSA that is often made and ignored and then people = come to rely on the existing state of affairs, making it hard to change, = ISTM that if you want to actually have it be easy to deprecate the data = then you probably want to make it actively unreliable now. I=E2=80=99m not sure there isn=E2=80=99t an emoticon missing from this = message=E2=80=A6 The message reminds me a bit of Windows UAC and the idea that users are = responsible for the reliability of their operating systems. (One main reason that this never can work is that users have work to do = and are not in a mode to interrupt their work for arcane unrelated = activities.) Here, users are effectively asked to make manual backups of work that = has been done in notes.ietf.org. Many people already occasionally make such backups, stash them away in = some unreliable way; others won=E2=80=99t and will start making queries = of who has a backup and whether that is the most recent one. (This = already has happened. Don=E2=80=99t ask.) Instead of burdening everyone with their own unstructured backup = mechanisms, maybe it does make sense to keep something going at the IETF = side. (Being able to underlay a git repository would be the best technical = solution that still keeps most responsibility on the user side. But I don=E2=80=99t want to talk mechanism here, just that it is not = enough to issue another RFC 6919 "MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON=E2=80=99T)=E2=80= =9D.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 16 00:46:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6DA3A1D25; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 00:46:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=vpjqWIRY; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=XrFzs6Ro Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m6EOQTxFh-8f; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 00:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B3333A1D22; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 00:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7531C5C0038; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 03:46:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 03:46:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=0 rA5Zb/vTpPTlCC+WTEXUY/WZp/S/kiAOWowzdZL8NI=; b=vpjqWIRYcY2Rblw5/ iz0TYwsmIyretKuZQePrli7l6jab0DmobVpNrNEpzOr7Fd3UCe+KQk8mwanCeOzJ HjE90SBcngkZiLR3rUqD6b77Iu6OAtVmObhYC82MTqdWULxnv32i8mDRH2YfnCb9 Gq/3kPu4Z/TG2WOUtDyuH03N9LfiZXo5oo0eddLAfl1Usy+LxJ3ejbbAAPD0uUoo 6tXiZ7LFmfsPxYo7GskZE3Ztd4dJK4uapwd5uk34ho/BbZu8GNJMFnLTRwzkjwEx oelUOw911w1BHhjK5nZJ7q0ZYgAso2pOtlGagx+3KABNOivFx1yZD5r10LJPz4+K RRjPw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=0rA5Zb/vTpPTlCC+WTEXUY/WZp/S/kiAOWowzdZL8 NI=; b=XrFzs6RoiphwEIvehWUxVlqt0dso3Kcf1Hk+QRVhC/dx6x5xbkAQIR0Si Oz6D8KEAd5QLZ8eCuEIdRXbwWzpY0VA7GP6IQ0PMYY4WvDYflozPX9tDzZz+7SZg d8tC7w6jiIcYh5SghXQgX2FOQPSwiDJf2BYJ2eWYXDfTXkqGKZKNUaWhnBhLFruy KgNWQLUBtkEGC0fZeqLNKqtU5ufCTZcPrRhFW95VPEXM0zhuI710CVzZ5/lkFaqR RRNtBoZTHPafUyHnIe/kBttFfETAbnRFVQDWqzE0v1BJWfZFokhrNeiy21UW9Jmf LeeqgXzJrAmtfm++pu8aaESLuXJrA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudehfedguddvtdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghr khcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrth htvghrnhepfeegvdfgjeegvdetuedukeevfefhheelieevjeejkefhffehkeejieekjedt heejnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsth gvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdr nhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 03:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 17:46:00 +1000 Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> References: To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 07:46:17 -0000 Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. > On 16 Sep 2021, at 5:39 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 15. Sep 2021, at 21:21, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Robert, >>=20 >> This is the kind of PSA that is often made and ignored and then = people come to rely on the existing state of affairs, making it hard to = change, ISTM that if you want to actually have it be easy to deprecate = the data then you probably want to make it actively unreliable now. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m not sure there isn=E2=80=99t an emoticon missing from this = message=E2=80=A6 >=20 > The message reminds me a bit of Windows UAC and the idea that users = are responsible for the reliability of their operating systems. > (One main reason that this never can work is that users have work to = do and are not in a mode to interrupt their work for arcane unrelated = activities.) >=20 > Here, users are effectively asked to make manual backups of work that = has been done in notes.ietf.org. > Many people already occasionally make such backups, stash them away in = some unreliable way; others won=E2=80=99t and will start making queries = of who has a backup and whether that is the most recent one. (This = already has happened. Don=E2=80=99t ask.) >=20 > Instead of burdening everyone with their own unstructured backup = mechanisms, maybe it does make sense to keep something going at the IETF = side. >=20 > (Being able to underlay a git repository would be the best technical = solution that still keeps most responsibility on the user side. > But I don=E2=80=99t want to talk mechanism here, just that it is not = enough to issue another RFC 6919 "MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON=E2=80=99T)=E2=80= =9D.) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Sep 16 01:07:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972243A1F6E for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:07:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=YIE/tMSG; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=G/PK0uZi Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EWF92IX2tLuI for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6898F3A1F70 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 133CC320028E for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:07:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:07:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; 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Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:07:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1291-gc66fc0a3a2-fm-20210913.001-gc66fc0a3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:07:26 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:07:54 -0000 That might have been one of the options Ekr was considering, though I'm = guessing he didn't want to be prescriptive. It's a technique that does = work though, and a relatively easy one to implement. An ephemeral-by-default tool is what I want from this. Not just to avoi= d the burden of working out a backup strategy, but because that is the t= ool that suits this purpose. And gist.github.com exists for the other s= tuff. On Thu, Sep 16, 2021, at 17:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. >=20 >=20 > > On 16 Sep 2021, at 5:39 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: > >=20 > > On 15. Sep 2021, at 21:21, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >>=20 > >> Hi Robert, > >>=20 > >> This is the kind of PSA that is often made and ignored and then peo= ple come to rely on the existing state of affairs, making it hard to cha= nge, ISTM that if you want to actually have it be easy to deprecate the = data then you probably want to make it actively unreliable now. > >=20 > > I=E2=80=99m not sure there isn=E2=80=99t an emoticon missing from th= is message=E2=80=A6 > >=20 > > The message reminds me a bit of Windows UAC and the idea that users = are responsible for the reliability of their operating systems. > > (One main reason that this never can work is that users have work to= do and are not in a mode to interrupt their work for arcane unrelated a= ctivities.) > >=20 > > Here, users are effectively asked to make manual backups of work tha= t has been done in notes.ietf.org. > > Many people already occasionally make such backups, stash them away = in some unreliable way; others won=E2=80=99t and will start making queri= es of who has a backup and whether that is the most recent one. (This a= lready has happened. Don=E2=80=99t ask.) > >=20 > > Instead of burdening everyone with their own unstructured backup mec= hanisms, maybe it does make sense to keep something going at the IETF si= de. > >=20 > > (Being able to underlay a git repository would be the best technical= solution that still keeps most responsibility on the user side. > > But I don=E2=80=99t want to talk mechanism here, just that it is not= enough to issue another RFC 6919 "MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON=E2=80=99T)=E2= =80=9D.) > >=20 > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > >=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:=20 > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe):=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 From nobody Thu Sep 16 01:09:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D0103A1F6E; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:08:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ILFojZ8qEj5n; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CE2E3A1F8C; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H98pP5ny3z2xJS; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:07:57 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:07:57 +0200 Cc: IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> To: Working Chairs X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:08:07 -0000 > On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was a serious proposal. I=E2=80=99ll treat is as such for the purpose of this message.) Or, don=E2=80=99t offer the service at all? (Probably better than deleting it 30 days after creation (!).) Most of the people who have done work in the IETF know about the value = of accessing random traces of that work from the past. After a couple of decades, we mostly got rid of the 6-month ideology = around Internet-Drafts; I wouldn=E2=80=99t want to repeat that painful = experience. Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or Google = docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a common service is that, after a while, = everybody knows how to use it and we can integrate it into other tools. Crippling such a service because we can=E2=80=99t figure out how to keep = up some ideology strikes me as an expression of contempt for the work of = the IETF=E2=80=99s contributors. You don=E2=80=99t have to feel the same way, but it should be well = understood that this is the signal that is being sent. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >> On 16 Sep 2021, at 5:39 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >> On 15. Sep 2021, at 21:21, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Robert, >>>=20 >>> This is the kind of PSA that is often made and ignored and then = people come to rely on the existing state of affairs, making it hard to = change, ISTM that if you want to actually have it be easy to deprecate = the data then you probably want to make it actively unreliable now. >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m not sure there isn=E2=80=99t an emoticon missing from = this message=E2=80=A6 >>=20 >> The message reminds me a bit of Windows UAC and the idea that users = are responsible for the reliability of their operating systems. >> (One main reason that this never can work is that users have work to = do and are not in a mode to interrupt their work for arcane unrelated = activities.) >>=20 >> Here, users are effectively asked to make manual backups of work that = has been done in notes.ietf.org. >> Many people already occasionally make such backups, stash them away = in some unreliable way; others won=E2=80=99t and will start making = queries of who has a backup and whether that is the most recent one. = (This already has happened. Don=E2=80=99t ask.) >>=20 >> Instead of burdening everyone with their own unstructured backup = mechanisms, maybe it does make sense to keep something going at the IETF = side. >>=20 >> (Being able to underlay a git repository would be the best technical = solution that still keeps most responsibility on the user side. >> But I don=E2=80=99t want to talk mechanism here, just that it is not = enough to issue another RFC 6919 "MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON=E2=80=99T)=E2=80= =9D.) >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 From nobody Thu Sep 16 01:30:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF7E3A2014 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:29:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IMgFgFEGQcM3 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE2A83A2013 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:adc8:3fc3:1412:18cf]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 15F676003D5; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:29:42 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1631780983; bh=3E2/JyUmJAxaoElTgqLIdagRcg89WFuk5+if6L0nh14=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=MEqMa+HAPsPNkVIH1qDw+OEg1H/UhB/zEY18eFNBIVyqAbNdR5tSl3YUsyiHOE6hB QjbYj8Fs9nBhE5qIUVbwuxvsYdN6CSNbvN1H5NpV/JYAPhEw2vE2VRHf7NobBrGP4M tqLL75uSdBfKHtHTQiW7mFuWV/uAafC7kTg39rvk= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <321F99DA-4F7D-4A40-B929-D78EF1DC9E39@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DA35FF19-314D-47C9-872E-4819B135D547"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:29:42 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org To: Martin Thomson References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> X-MailScanner-ID: 15F676003D5.A1F43 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:29:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DA35FF19-314D-47C9-872E-4819B135D547 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-9-16, at 11:07, Martin Thomson wrote: > And gist.github.com exists for the other stuff. the HedgeDoc version behind https://demo.hedgedoc.org/release-notes = already has an "export to gist" item in the top-right menu. The IETF version doesn't, but maybe that can be added with a config = change or an update to whatever version demo.hedgedoc.org is running? Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_DA35FF19-314D-47C9-872E-4819B135D547 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmFDAHYACgkQVLXDCb9w wVcZtRAAjYh6EQqaZ4qbaSG/bNvZsoh5k6OI9NLWJiSh4gNF8tZzsmenHB8qQAXg mJOld3eVbyWtWInUNoTgBv2+ymAkDCkQpotvyqgFGdP+Bo27Uh4IksYJkGvB2q0d y4Cn+hxIPPVimHrLT4N0jRirHGATGs1mGgPcco/Ixv/phuBATXYS9Wed6Eamse37 Qd0hYae8hZSs1nvGgbw32xlP/i3sIojUzUKDMIccnmOzNB8dnrG/tcbPaAdBb8lg tvOc2fRdGaz8T14r/7p0XK+g1DR2tFWs/+TcH6rWOt2Cr+q4K/F8BSV9tjkE3JxU BGGAs1cqR3RZ1DupFyZ5BLaw+0rXY2maE1uC4/HzEmabXXgI1qbKsHuqMDtKXG8A sC5TjoaxfUlw3qGbRdZWydcsANRutEion/1LJzytYAzHxcWn7nIwzCGyBaVbGR7+ 2Cu4LFWIwYI/Mpp7JdCvijzRUeKthH5L11WERGjzfwOeP+bXHAT3RJQpTDrMoJ/n LCHlC1s50f1hc1K10W0FhWeG6LR8Dz5eHpDnKse7y35+96u1EPNdhqsLyF2UTah+ 1dVjYyH/VjqteRL6iQxK7l2e5VTKdVRg7FgG7yobWmRxpus5roglBb6sF4iwqCrv 7cVqiM7cROfEC69Gnx0QoihVXa4Rcwa+B4fM6OiGhreanYzHESI= =cvPP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_DA35FF19-314D-47C9-872E-4819B135D547-- From nobody Thu Sep 16 01:31:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64613A2024; 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Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:31:27 +1000 Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:31:42 -0000 It was a very serious proposal. We already have a large number of places that people need to look for = data. Adding another is not optimal, especially when the purpose of the = tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference. > On 16 Sep 2021, at 6:07 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. >=20 > (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was a serious proposal. > I=E2=80=99ll treat is as such for the purpose of this message.) >=20 > Or, don=E2=80=99t offer the service at all? > (Probably better than deleting it 30 days after creation (!).) >=20 > Most of the people who have done work in the IETF know about the value = of accessing random traces of that work from the past. > After a couple of decades, we mostly got rid of the 6-month ideology = around Internet-Drafts; I wouldn=E2=80=99t want to repeat that painful = experience. >=20 > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or Google = docs) gives us more control. > Another benefit of having a common service is that, after a while, = everybody knows how to use it and we can integrate it into other tools. >=20 > Crippling such a service because we can=E2=80=99t figure out how to = keep up some ideology strikes me as an expression of contempt for the = work of the IETF=E2=80=99s contributors. > You don=E2=80=99t have to feel the same way, but it should be well = understood that this is the signal that is being sent. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 >>> On 16 Sep 2021, at 5:39 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 15. Sep 2021, at 21:21, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Robert, >>>>=20 >>>> This is the kind of PSA that is often made and ignored and then = people come to rely on the existing state of affairs, making it hard to = change, ISTM that if you want to actually have it be easy to deprecate = the data then you probably want to make it actively unreliable now. >>>=20 >>> I=E2=80=99m not sure there isn=E2=80=99t an emoticon missing from = this message=E2=80=A6 >>>=20 >>> The message reminds me a bit of Windows UAC and the idea that users = are responsible for the reliability of their operating systems. >>> (One main reason that this never can work is that users have work to = do and are not in a mode to interrupt their work for arcane unrelated = activities.) >>>=20 >>> Here, users are effectively asked to make manual backups of work = that has been done in notes.ietf.org. >>> Many people already occasionally make such backups, stash them away = in some unreliable way; others won=E2=80=99t and will start making = queries of who has a backup and whether that is the most recent one. = (This already has happened. Don=E2=80=99t ask.) >>>=20 >>> Instead of burdening everyone with their own unstructured backup = mechanisms, maybe it does make sense to keep something going at the IETF = side. >>>=20 >>> (Being able to underlay a git repository would be the best technical = solution that still keeps most responsibility on the user side. >>> But I don=E2=80=99t want to talk mechanism here, just that it is not = enough to issue another RFC 6919 "MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON=E2=80=99T)=E2=80= =9D.) >>>=20 >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>=20 >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Sep 16 01:34:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A933A1454; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:34:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BSsVANjmsUJ6; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95B753A0028; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H99NW1ffPz2xNp; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:34:03 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:34:02 +0200 Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 653474042.206255-f390bd7ccd9df7a9080e2824a25e08cd Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0114BD23-BD49-46D5-A824-7D76D8730AB4@tzi.org> References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:34:15 -0000 On 2021-09-16, at 10:31, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > We already have a large number of places that people need to look for = data. Adding another is not optimal, especially when the purpose of the = tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference. Sure. I just don=E2=80=99t know how crippling notes.ietf.org will help = with Google docs, hackmd.io, and all these other places. Actually, it = will drive people back to those. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 16 01:54:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE3283A20D9; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:53:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=IQ+fXfV7; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=fFSKIinl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xgLxSz6mogpB; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60CB83A20D3; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 01:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B215C5C01DA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:53:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=/ jlXbNxwaUr7ae8n3q4vFp+jsPtG9W8Iqo+AVdU2qsQ=; b=IQ+fXfV7+3zMZMPsR c+/apIInmqrmXPZzvJi8tJfOsBLfvhrg0aXKyGViJvcBRoRxI3pPjUJJZxTT8oYU fuG+bY1Gp11Uk1EENF6bSWGZl+JSVviEHT2ikOSQ1XTJv+HWE/p8PyARNXCJFOKI UkVjk12E9D005qNdkZfXwej25Y2AbSlReltrQiJHEzOLFLLbgP+EWrpeTzWtCnqx QmHCjImaUtvV1TFC2637V/qtosEFvwq/0NIswgoQTdYrCv70lOhLsnMIjWLxKH1P YdmtF8G6pHsTHOn1qIu168/gzEdd1fsufg7y0va4JxMxG9Yx4O78i4xdlw00gg2T BMKDg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=/jlXbNxwaUr7ae8n3q4vFp+jsPtG9W8Iqo+AVdU2q sQ=; b=fFSKIinlx0U5T2rcOzW0C4u7VscQrc94TtdPs5+eSgxE0xF64/RqKfqXy ovyDcqd2egwSPqe4aD5PiZgLk1TnQzlWlXrhKhEIKTmn5YQ5v4dix1cuMkXpQfd4 e0T7hKDo5APXZQ002kpHB09bFZYE9l4kHkK2tZM+MU2+u6ZkMSlU5FwO85X7UEu0 U7kJj34YiJuDjwchI/V571I3gHA+LOTI/URbId0uDDPVVr/LzZOjIzgL2Jl2ak1L dXEG1S/9/ar+ic+MbX5xOMlwXO6SAEiNZgeuyuV4J3FFR+sZL5yg7JGML5huna/J 6ruoSKW9zY83PjMyNWJ8TX0qzTx3w== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudehgedgtdehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeefgedvgfejgedvteeuudekveefhfehleeiveejjeekhfffheekjeeikeejtdeh jeenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhn vght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 04:53:44 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <0114BD23-BD49-46D5-A824-7D76D8730AB4@tzi.org> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:53:41 +1000 Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <36F7F377-FA9C-4A26-82D7-2F64E7F1045F@mnot.net> References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <0114BD23-BD49-46D5-A824-7D76D8730AB4@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:53:55 -0000 > On 16 Sep 2021, at 6:34 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 2021-09-16, at 10:31, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >> We already have a large number of places that people need to look for = data. Adding another is not optimal, especially when the purpose of the = tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference. >=20 > Sure. I just don=E2=80=99t know how crippling notes.ietf.org will = help with Google docs, hackmd.io, and all these other places. Actually, = it will drive people back to those. I have so many questions :) Why is it an issue that people use those other services for scratch = documents?=20 If temporary documents aren't appropriate, what guarantees do you need = regarding archival storage, reliability, availability, etc? Why does the IETF have to run this service, instead of relying on a = third party? How do these now long-lived documents interact with RFCs, = Internet-Drafts, Datatracker and meeting proceedings (the various = sources of truth we currently have)? In particular, when someone = references a document there and presumes it's IETF-sanctioned? Who determines that it's worth the cost of providing such a long-lived = service? Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Sep 16 02:02:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB9D63A210C; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 02:02:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nk3KKtkEOWjX; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 02:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D74043A210E; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 02:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H9B1X0vSWz2xHv; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:02:40 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <36F7F377-FA9C-4A26-82D7-2F64E7F1045F@mnot.net> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:02:39 +0200 Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 653475759.741195-54a729c4f5d8819b6942282e12a675b3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <0114BD23-BD49-46D5-A824-7D76D8730AB4@tzi.org> <36F7F377-FA9C-4A26-82D7-2F64E7F1045F@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:02:48 -0000 On 2021-09-16, at 10:53, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 >> On 16 Sep 2021, at 6:34 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >> On 2021-09-16, at 10:31, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>=20 >>> We already have a large number of places that people need to look = for data. Adding another is not optimal, especially when the purpose of = the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference. >>=20 >> Sure. I just don=E2=80=99t know how crippling notes.ietf.org will = help with Google docs, hackmd.io, and all these other places. Actually, = it will drive people back to those. >=20 > I have so many questions :) =E2=80=A6 and that is completely OK, because different WGs have = different ways to do work, so this all may not be obvious. > Why is it an issue that people use those other services for scratch = documents?=20 It is not an issue; it is a missed opportunity. I wrote: >> Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or = Google docs) gives us more control. >> Another benefit of having a common service is that, after a while, = everybody knows how to use it and we can integrate it into other tools. > If temporary documents aren't appropriate, what guarantees do you need = regarding archival storage, reliability, availability, etc? Reasonable care. The point is not that this needs to be protected against nuclear = attacks, but that we keep some basic level of service that is not = intentionally throwing away other people=E2=80=99s work. > Why does the IETF have to run this service, instead of relying on a = third party? See above. It doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Chave=E2=80=9D to run this service; it just = historically has done so and it turned out to be useful (much more = useful after the switch to CodiMD/Hedgedoc). > How do these now long-lived documents interact with RFCs, = Internet-Drafts, Datatracker and meeting proceedings (the various = sources of truth we currently have)? In particular, when someone = references a document there and presumes it's IETF-sanctioned? Then they are wrong. But they already can do that with Internet-Drafts. If that helps, add an obnoxious disclaimer at the top. > Who determines that it's worth the cost of providing such a long-lived = service? I don=E2=80=99t know the cost, but it seemed to be limited. (Etherpad was available for a long time, but was having availability = problems. Kudos to Robert for =E2=80=9Ccreating=E2=80=9D this problem in the first = place by switching to a more reliable software base.) Who determines the value? The users. I think we have a clear result = there (maybe not in your quarters of the IETF). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 16 05:32:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766263A275B for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 05:32:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=Pdhhhe+7; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=ArGL9n7R Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1YQov8DNbjFw for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 07:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E2483A2B01 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 07:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18GETjdX046086 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:29:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631802586; bh=Wk2CWKvOv9OlPXYGXw/HbHzSx/dfcMvbKx+AqTDcq3M=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=JlcWT5X/9hCbFMNVwX1WEvJ46WsXn9wjnn4ncaDcClv7udLC9qWMFN2zyZfYVQyT/ uuQhtCNasg/oqK2prxFrC7KfSmk8PepYYqW0FiYNJ4leDH85nQ/nbS14BZKui8Fx9a 6i+d/e9hrThatFfMByJ3mHJB7zKLdNOg1rJHVqkA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:29:40 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:29:55 -0000 Jeffrey - On 9/16/21 7:32 AM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang wrote: > [ moving to tools-discuss ] > > Hi Ben, > > > Thanks for pointing out the decommissioning. Sorry for not noticing the= announcement before, and apparently there are quite some people like me = =F0=9F=98=8A > > Anyway, I use the diff/idnit/spell/xml2rfc and draft submission tools a= t tools.ietf.org and they've been slow recently. After learning that tool= s.ietf.org is replaced by the datatracker, I went to datatracker.ietf.org= =2E There the only links related to the tools that I use are "Draft Submi= ssion" under the "Documents" tab, and "IETF Tools" at the lower right bot= tom. rfcdiff is at www.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff (this is where you will land if = you use the diff features from the History tab any draft. idnits is at www.ietf.org/tools/idnits (also where you land if you click = the [! Nits] button on the main datatracker page for any draft.) (Yes, both rfcdiff and idnits have an odd behavior of temporarily=20 redirecting to www6, and serving an older skin, but that will be=20 addressed soon.) This is the first request I've seen to provide something like the spell=20 service - we will look at adding something like that. We are actively working on a re-implementations of the bibxml and online = xml2rfc conversion services, and are very much aware of the slowness and = occasional incorrect behavior of the current xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org. We are also building a replacement for the current tools.ietf.org front=20 page. RjS > > However, "IETF Tools" simply points to "tools.ietf.org", and "Draft Sub= mission" link in "tools.ietf.org" is the same as "Draft Submission" under= the "Documents" tab (all point to https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/).= > > So I am still a bit lost - appreciate if someone could share a link to = the announcement that I missed. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/oYrAxb3KayPzZ4SNB1DVZ= TDPPNo/=20 (which was copied to ietf@ietf.org, and forwarded to wgchairs@ietf.org. As all things seem to be in the IETF, it is taking slightly longer than=20 expected, but we are on track for turning down the current=20 tools.ietf.org by the end of the year. As I ask in that note, if there are things you rely on at tools.ietf.org = that are not yet available somewhere else, send a note to this list. (The remaining things other than the services at xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org=20 that are already identified and waiting to be addressed are pdf-ized=20 versions of drafts, dailydose, and a small handful of things that used=20 metadata from tools that are being adjusted to use metadata from the=20 datatracker). RjS > > Thanks. > Jeffrey > > -----Original Message----- > From: Benjamin Kaduk > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 12:14 AM > To: Donald Eastlake > Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org; Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) = ; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Subject: Re: slow tools reaction > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > I assume that everyone is referring to sites hosted under tools.ietf.or= g, > the old server that is slated for decommisioning. > I have seen slowness as well, but it does not really concern me much > because everything I regularly use is actually on the datatracker, and = the > slowness only comes about because links (e.g., from google) have not > updated to point to datatracker directly instead of tools. > > Also, tools-discuss is probably a better list at which to discuss any > issues. > > -Ben > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 10:13:55PM -0400, Donald Eastlake wrote: >> Me too... >> >> Thanks, >> Donald >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) >> 2386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA >> d3e3e3@gmail.com >> >> On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 8:42 PM Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) >> wrote: >>> Yes , it=E2=80=99s been slow for me too . >>> >>> Mankamana >>> ________________________________ >>> From: WGChairs on behalf of Jeffrey (Zhao= hui) Zhang >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 5:33:32 PM >>> To: wgchairs@ietf.org >>> Subject: slow tools reaction >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Is it just me or have you also noticed that IETF tools have been quit= e slow recently? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> Jeffrey >>> >>> Juniper Business Use Only >>> > Juniper Business Use Only > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Thu Sep 16 12:23:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1492D3A0A01; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:22:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pZ_kZBxKSud1; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2522F3A09FD; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [142.169.78.235]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 252171F459; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:22:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id C14431A028E; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dooku (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA3E1A018B; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:22:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss In-reply-to: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> Comments: In-reply-to Carsten Bormann message dated "Thu, 16 Sep 2021 10:07:57 +0200." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:22:31 -0400 Message-ID: <1534366.1631820151@dooku> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:22:44 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. > (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was a serious proposal. I= =E2=80=99ll treat > is as such for the purpose of this message.) Well, I'm serious. I think 30 days might be way too long.=20=20 WG and design team leaders should know to download minutes at the end of the session. It's not hard. But, in order to train that, the contents needs to disappear within the day, and there will be some crying. Some WG session minutes will go away.=20=20 > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or Google > docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a common > service is that, after a while, everybody knows how to use it and we > can integrate it into other tools. Agreed. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAmFDmXcACgkQlUzhVv38 QpBsXwf/cXY0sFFEwJUDMAa8voVqpx8Se9xHWvVs0McaGjcyrWM4J193YF8+Wlfj RNsikKj2gHZ74KZoreumyHi8TOXxwLf7aaslClqnNP/bAG3xngGcjU7RjlmYc2+c yY3dTWKOqCOzn/bH4DqLe6NgrW1sYBzdwAcYT3x94FAuEsQvvhmfeb0guBfYa2uo xYntTIjFowzVX8vgWZFMKosXnplBZdfygDxSx/f5Yv+qSsN7sYqI9VO5WLrnCQkw RQvcKOZKOHekFnocMN14Sm57sVDUilAQ8+py30m/gTViem1g/vM7lSqfuznqlhIn O0VLVPMEr+QTHBfuZD8Gc/V+SMkblA== =eCE+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Sep 16 12:39:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8077F3A0BA0 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:39:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lVJivqPwZ1eC for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx36-out20.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out20.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CED463A0BA4 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xse126.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.126] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx133.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mQxDw-00055T-Fw for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:39:10 +0200 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4H9S7s2TRyzL7t for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.17] (helo=xmail07.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mQxDt-0002Yo-6m for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:39:05 -0700 Received: (qmail 18604 invoked from network); 16 Sep 2021 19:39:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.103]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.141]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail07.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 16 Sep 2021 19:39:01 -0000 To: Michael Richardson , Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:39:00 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1534366.1631820151@dooku> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.126 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5xYBsnYv/AS8SzTL27x6/ipEuOubvMjlOVGoG6MTUBsWIJL M0i5ZAms0EHrvcCaVIOwL6g7U0aBsAKVGf8/EQY5zIXV52OyeiH3YVVX92r9x1Hy6O0dCYlf9T05 vJHa3fKcXUnX/NPpaaHkXcvmoaj84xG2XC2LNoOkp4vxUMQqVx6IjGdSKn6aI9pXlx3shQxNOuP9 1GZ8SLb9PsvsohdeIRFsicyJMEhQFtD8PLoinjFCU0tibMaZMfiByLA2q5th8eXuGDB+WvlcaPhs +IMOep61KNolF2DlH2a2LdpMMmtrv2iUsvl2CC901V0YBrviEnzvvDcGs5qmm9XDE2pdZWZmIMWJ G2DzNierwWd45v2o1X92Cn4UU9JJ17dQkS7izDj4VfLGYhV5rU4pWppWERZjMvwfvbhZOry+t8BT U6S6BiS1pgrDY9yDlGBfLaRjewJ1p2KNOGtnsuIcf3b/prnOfejoy0ryl/SE9sCR4JkwTwd6I5MF c+Z5FxsZqYBzHDeqqFz43py4SDhdaHkWtttM+AEGzHMWbMjn66ZaUCrNIt931t/mGMxkBVmaFrqt DmlZnYjwZc5VTp/GtdDTYu8C5mJ57ZG9g9QfbBpIF04i48Xcfj93b8optspViB3ujwN5vAr2fQEN gxhN/KmvT74ZEqLd8l9FM+v8+4kcTSHRnGlLwP7kpBmnXyTU4KYKu19hO5DULTHYDQNvhFY/EfmH 2bRZHdAL/dpgC3sNYkAcBOz1PkEegH8AJOn+0/1m4zuNRcgRKiGg7nXFaZTx26XSvuqDb6Zf+dx5 dgaZqkGzYuvv4qY3WsmxcjdQAfg9va+zHJ1uMyxbJq8sS5DA9QD4Mrh3Bu2caezxvyq0YcMzxHWq +DzXvdqOFJyZFEBrwytzyq4nhu0+m3/YUu4UViekgyyW3O5RhlUL6+pD+okHwEE9dSrTROzD4Zdv KoVh3+MrOOK4NgfP/RZivWtTxypUhWZ7DV/QthUn4wTjFg== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:39:17 -0000 On 9/16/2021 12:22 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> > >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. > > > (Again, I don’t know whether this was a serious proposal. I’ll treat > > is as such for the purpose of this message.) > > Well, I'm serious. > I think 30 days might be way too long. > > WG and design team leaders should know to download minutes at the end of the > session. It's not hard. > But, in order to train that, the contents needs to disappear within the day, > and there will be some crying. Some WG session minutes will go away. > > > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or Google > > docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a common > > service is that, after a while, everybody knows how to use it and we > > can integrate it into other tools. > > Agreed. The IETF already archives mail messages and Internet drafts. How hard would it be to archive notes and minutes? After all, this texts are part of the standard making process, covered by the Note Well, etc. -- Christian Huitema From nobody Thu Sep 16 12:50:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D62CB3A0CF9; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:50:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FHuj05ICdiRg; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BDC33A0CF0; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [142.169.78.235]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CB9E1F4A5; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:50:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id BBBAD1A028E; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:50:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dooku (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9DA91A018B; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:50:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Christian Huitema , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss In-reply-to: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> Comments: In-reply-to Christian Huitema message dated "Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:39:00 -0700." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:50:01 -0400 Message-ID: <1536418.1631821801@dooku> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:50:11 -0000 --==-=-= Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Christian Huitema wrote: > The IETF already archives mail messages and Internet drafts. How hard > would it be to archive notes and minutes? After all, this texts are > part of the standard making process, covered by the Note Well, etc. Sure, just upload them as minutes to the DT, and it gets archived already. For now, WG chairs need to do that, which also means that they have an opportunity to review the conent. A significant annoyance is that we don't have a standard markdown across all our content archives. --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: Signature =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-=-- --==-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAmFDn+kACgkQlUzhVv38 QpCRFQf+JF9sSzN2/ZOTrIaKqNsZ6WsRcKwSdF0X2d4DIz1I5mb1OEyBya7vVcBk FKCv5VDzm9NmN2yQmD7Du6aNv2fMXfKQFvNLSmr8H4ix8Xrizf+8l7X4X4T4Owdw 4BvjRNdsM20Z9MUK6b5PHUWXzBIZ3LMlw8K8TMxqhbb8FGkhYn1cMXGLwCTmbkgf bqRUc36s/obMpBNCa6gYs+/FV7bTdMuWZn4jpwmc/az623Xxy8RM9FvIYG4JBqZI K8AG/zxg973Rpe+0wM4Yk7sxPnbEXyV15iujSWV4eJY+oSESpvsUe4QWbI4FZbDi 3NJR3TfNc/CNLHeIC6PrP62HWAAmIA== =VDUe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==-=-=-- From nobody Thu Sep 16 12:58:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4073A0E3F; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:58:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oi-kwL4OcvUD; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x631.google.com (mail-pl1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::631]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D33533A0E37; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x631.google.com with SMTP id o8so4641370pll.1; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=sender:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language :thread-index; bh=XznZCZhZ8VVe2K3QASP+UL3+jm/Hcb54DU2+xgZFKj4=; b=DNznXNqOqn6Ydaa5MvyKMmUsf0Ym9tOr/drlAlZX2aEtqBCQ4o1GVhR5d1pK/lIfhs 9XBs7y3rTYJeN3cvwG4DqZ7d3E2o0cXsgVo60nXJKphLSXqq7G91iBwZDWgRloFQoyTF R84dOpDO1YrFcp75J68MF6q9ZgQ2dl0dPpYvi+aphHscFUw8nXOhziD8A6aG1Hs7iz2l 29PYFyUVuWZkLaG0z0aGKkWCSFpP66BQ2zruFcaMRH7obZ0QGQK5Yg3oOjDkWoKD/mym YnD3OHIwaaWpFw1ihKwMFZRpxOf2e+y57u/ANi7Ef63oGr1owjOU5nnsRlrVvp+3gCA+ flNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject :date:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-language:thread-index; bh=XznZCZhZ8VVe2K3QASP+UL3+jm/Hcb54DU2+xgZFKj4=; b=ra6D8N/HFpONd+pfcpIZdzg14uheLcrWQSPlXhsZzUISvyYa08V0EmJ5LCNuceCbBh mTJEEhBOIVL0dXtg/3EfJs4tR+ccLc6JSUHskVgDK7AswYrKbBt+aJn7yEXv6qlBw6zH U3xvPRKc26t8ygbYJE11Dt4qjQLTXwas2t6S/nDZRRAQvAEZz5NLCjRdOfmrVKnjo0gr K0yqYmIa233eBdIntY/dakDLln6jM3gLrz24sTJMdeELCq/Ey1uVs17wH4ETcr2suD5o r5VtTPRLzrhsDnw6nnUkVLCnv/YFZ7xOvwPbuLTE/kqykYtaS8Pc+y6qcTt2fuiSrVL3 o6og== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531WTvbEOW0EfblxYKVAYRn5933iO3s84iTP97CG3dQTnjgQ8OgE uXDx7JavKzwuHIXN3XdFt/U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwIvr4EI8Q13Clenr81Fxr4KkzqLrTobH9kwcTf93Jjdch2vzeemhES6SQ4C2Un1b3T2unOhw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:428e:: with SMTP id p14mr16899483pjg.92.1631822314707; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TVPC (c-73-158-116-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.158.116.21]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q2sm8683429pjo.27.2021.09.16.12.58.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Larry Masinter From: Larry Masinter X-Google-Original-From: "Larry Masinter" To: "'Michael Richardson'" , "'Christian Huitema'" , "'Working Chairs'" , "'IETF discussion list'" , "'tools-discuss'" References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> In-Reply-To: <1536418.1631821801@dooku> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:58:33 -0700 Message-ID: <00d901d7ab35$3b0a0dd0$b11e2970$@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQFroSjbJClX/EKUW57R+f97epTZbwKpLyxdAUgSJKACI7oD/QIKVWouAhQCymcCDIhXAAFkEetxrBIILWA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:58:42 -0000 > A significant annoyance is that we don't have a standard markdown across all > our content archives. I'm not sure there's a standard way of signifying which flavor of markdown was used, for that matter. From nobody Thu Sep 16 13:03:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AF773A0EDA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:02:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sU3FHehVEgXG; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 729893A0ED1; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id m11so9390401ioo.6; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:02:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gIgxDRljb8gvc7nmMuHJaqqmB/FxKHTibTbTl2TKuZ8=; b=Rk0URjLYMKiadsa1hkaExalahRqCCayDtL9YBsKyeCPJ08xCugifPEVzh9W8EpiTcS TUldGSY44qJW07NztQ8Z+o6dik0TkeGFx1ZasYmdp8vDCmBfx/lwSLQrL3FK6UW98/LQ OsY8caO3bguYrpWi13TAHe5W9tly/7BfW4stNdxHXE4F/CnKJyMN6Jlz++nq4ZOECrVc LSWOPgflpT7KBNj31u4DKK6PV3qyDC5+EnsCThGrjAjhQiI4cYgg4W12PSDYnBxX2WnZ NZtCEyqmL5Usi0Hogtb+rNz+3lig2TXOftC2146Hey3bnSA8FOwgbh065bm6azT6yFlA JlJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gIgxDRljb8gvc7nmMuHJaqqmB/FxKHTibTbTl2TKuZ8=; b=hZp5aRfOHHHhq6i8hOp6qh3nsgXus8ySRXx9XysQbuLJB+zkpnqwa1EFfHDOcyLSwy ykcOjis+r/Hpme0TMwDHcPykAns4lD4EjMt5iepyMElGCuSeyre9rCCL90aCW5AYRsF8 nAqNtlGButq7A/MivrB1Tz9QCulSXisSVJsolfZnOZ8B0BZ02YQnCJX5m64QSePlqtvD z8jVIUZYJWX3Iq2uZj42AV1z0YHc40G9d4jAYE+vi9dM+sx8qOL2olVmf4vRpNK9Fzl9 BQfjP1oXHagL6AbzxqGbabWf8Zc327R1nPRkg5E+oL6DcFJvwbA5Wq90vGb88DTkmZS5 hJTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533NoYFYhRAVHXSmoNHjZFOSgFJLitliUNTxmBjmNIRrSAzgugM0 2rYoA0/nyBO7w0JHyNpkZTUnIz9nEhzgZM4U7Bk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJycIzW0s1n/D9j2pWiURGKWvbFbUsG4xvQW6LNbbe1yD9XqXq31tK7cMhuewfI0giIF5ZDJG2RzQuMIG9N2Cnc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:16d4:: with SMTP id g20mr5798500jat.22.1631822569803; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:02:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:02:33 -0400 Message-ID: To: Christian Huitema Cc: Michael Richardson , Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009c12da05cc224c8f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 20:02:57 -0000 --0000000000009c12da05cc224c8f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christian, Completed minutes are archived in the Datatracker. These are draft minutes that we're talking about here. Cheers, Andy On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 3:39 PM Christian Huitema wrote: > > On 9/16/2021 12:22 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Carsten Bormann wrote: > > >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham > wrote: > > >> > > >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. > > > > > (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was a serious proposal= . I=E2=80=99ll > treat > > > is as such for the purpose of this message.) > > > > Well, I'm serious. > > I think 30 days might be way too long. > > > > WG and design team leaders should know to download minutes at the end o= f > the > > session. It's not hard. > > But, in order to train that, the contents needs to disappear within the > day, > > and there will be some crying. Some WG session minutes will go away. > > > > > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or > Google > > > docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a common > > > service is that, after a while, everybody knows how to use it an= d > we > > > can integrate it into other tools. > > > > Agreed. > > The IETF already archives mail messages and Internet drafts. How hard > would it be to archive notes and minutes? After all, this texts are part > of the standard making process, covered by the Note Well, etc. > > -- Christian Huitema > > --0000000000009c12da05cc224c8f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Christian,

Completed minutes are archiv= ed in the Datatracker. These are draft minutes=C2=A0that we're talking = about here.

Cheers,
Andy

<= /div>


On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 3:39 PM Christian Huitema <<= a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net> wrote:

On 9/16/2021 12:22 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
> Carsten Bormann <= cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingha= m <mnot@mnot.net&= gt; wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 da= ys after creation.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was= a serious proposal.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99ll treat
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > is as such for the purpose of this message.)<= br> >
> Well, I'm serious.
> I think 30 days might be way too long.
>
> WG and design team leaders should know to download minutes at the end = of the
> session.=C2=A0 It's not hard.
> But, in order to train that, the contents needs to disappear within th= e day,
> and there will be some crying.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Some WG session minutes wil= l go away.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Collecting notes in our own service (as oppos= ed to hac= kmd.io or Google
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > docs) gives us more control.=C2=A0 Another be= nefit of having a common
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > service is that, after a while, everybody kno= ws how to use it and we
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > can integrate it into other tools.
>
> Agreed.

The IETF already archives mail messages and Internet drafts. How hard
would it be to archive notes and minutes? After all, this texts are part of the standard making process, covered by the Note Well, etc.

-- Christian Huitema

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([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b13sm8668536pjk.35.2021.09.16.14.09.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:09:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Richardson , Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <93bdbb89-4aca-267c-6970-11f1c307003d@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:09:26 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1534366.1631820151@dooku> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:09:38 -0000 On 17-Sep-21 07:22, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wrote= : > >>=20 > >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. >=20 > > (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was a serious proposal.=20 I=E2=80=99ll treat > > is as such for the purpose of this message.) >=20 > Well, I'm serious. > I think 30 days might be way too long. >=20 > WG and design team leaders should know to download minutes at the end o= f the > session. It's not hard. > But, in order to train that, the contents needs to disappear within the=20 day, > and there will be some crying. Some WG session minutes will go away. One day is too short; back in the good old days, when most of us suffered= jet lag after each meeting, a week to capture the minutes and copy-edit them was hardly enough. But I do agree, this is a major duty of WG chairs= or secretaries, and needs to be done promptly.=20 I wouldn't call it notes.ietf.org. I'd call it temp.ietf.org. Or at least= , put everything in notes.ietf.org/temp/ and move it to notes.ietf.org/recy= cle/ after 30 days and then to /dev/null after another 30 days. Something like= that, anyway, depending on how it would integrate with HedgeDoc. Brian=20 >=20 > > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or G= oogle > > docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a common > > service is that, after a while, everybody knows how to use it and=20 we > > can integrate it into other tools. >=20 > Agreed. >=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Sep 16 14:15:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1962E3A0A0C; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:15:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=fraunhofer.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b19jg4_Jfl2Q; 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dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=sit.fraunhofer.de; Received: from DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:276::9) by DB9P194MB1481.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:10:294::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4523.16; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:14:36 +0000 Received: from DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::8c2b:841f:ce13:50ac]) by DU2P194MB1709.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::8c2b:841f:ce13:50ac%5]) with mapi id 15.20.4500.018; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:14:36 +0000 To: Brian E Carpenter , Michael Richardson , Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <93bdbb89-4aca-267c-6970-11f1c307003d@gmail.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <13291778-0f4c-58d8-4d8b-ec6928cdaae8@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:14:34 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; 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I would stop using it, if things would simply disappear, obviously. How is this a good idea? On 16.09.21 23:09, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 17-Sep-21 07:22, Michael Richardson wrote: >> >> Carsten Bormann wrote: >> >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> >> >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. >> >> > (Again, I don’t know whether this was a serious proposal. > I’ll treat >> > is as such for the purpose of this message.) >> >> Well, I'm serious. >> I think 30 days might be way too long. >> >> WG and design team leaders should know to download minutes at the end of the >> session. It's not hard. >> But, in order to train that, the contents needs to disappear within the > day, >> and there will be some crying. Some WG session minutes will go away. > > One day is too short; back in the good old days, when most of us suffered > jet lag after each meeting, a week to capture the minutes and copy-edit > them was hardly enough. But I do agree, this is a major duty of WG chairs > or secretaries, and needs to be done promptly. > > I wouldn't call it notes.ietf.org. I'd call it temp.ietf.org. Or at least, > put everything in notes.ietf.org/temp/ and move it to notes.ietf.org/recycle/ > after 30 days and then to /dev/null after another 30 days. Something like > that, anyway, depending on how it would integrate with HedgeDoc. > > Brian >> >> > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or Google >> > docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a common >> > service is that, after a while, everybody knows how to use it and > we >> > can integrate it into other tools. >> >> Agreed. >> >> > From nobody Thu Sep 16 14:17:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A5193A0A3D; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:17:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iki.fi Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0cKmMGe-PxZB; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lahtoruutu.iki.fi (lahtoruutu.iki.fi [185.185.170.37]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD5473A0A3A; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fireball.acr.fi (fireball.kivinen.iki.fi [IPv6:2001:1bc8:100d::2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: kivinen@iki.fi) by lahtoruutu.iki.fi (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BD6651B00120; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 00:17:26 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=iki.fi; s=lahtoruutu; t=1631827046; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=T6NsGZ/6SljC/XOKJ28sN43Y3D8miegpccMIWVE+S0w=; b=q+UvRadtrdIo3mhy/2QX2x7KRcbmp+Y9Imhed3Y68RC29jU/ZBBOENSXtUZK2wbrG3A9Nj nVMhEdddtJ1wR7Yz74BZkiHdMbpE9x6Lim8AwgvjsQGIQqpZZ8x70b+pfWVaYokPraTJFC U22e+CI5+oqoVSMS6B0TR1Y5CmOLMcXpczuqTmPnoV4dKvyDiMz6YUuvrexG12CR051lS5 TIj3JVUIfRle0wV262Cxj6VkTTNuUe/frWa4Cr2QyKm8KxPxa6uvbb4mtgx8xLIaBl4vzG QSzghHBRD1NUByo6ycSR46tppQEJAp7PRjzQJNXEBqFe7hQ5TkWOXChZAxi3aw== Received: by fireball.acr.fi (Postfix, from userid 15204) id 207DE25C12B7; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 00:17:26 +0300 (EEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <24899.46182.82529.393383@fireball.acr.fi> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 00:17:26 +0300 From: Tero Kivinen To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss In-Reply-To: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (x86_64--netbsd) X-Edit-Time: 8 min X-Total-Time: 8 min ARC-Seal: i=1; s=lahtoruutu; d=iki.fi; t=1631827046; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=MfrBb0S3xJo15/jA2tcQQwidIxQC+Cq6uLl6F2sJIcg6YGIpvFSoYLK9/lmnU8EfMXbz5r ikrF18ZHzNLPECnx3JTJXvYOwDVlcGuNbFJSID9oPWnZAwg5U3kifU/uGP+7hHdhwsdKFh W6lpq/l5HSgCeGwHfjDFxgkT5KCpBrKhUrEwnWLiUuS2lMiBQdFbrGfavAIdvhXsu8U9+z Hy4++V+TB33GNbZ7cVTURsq8gDw6AxsvaA5xkGppjqhybJC6xMxc6322qoz2KVIXj8oSTH 8xf8XgVYKh3Gar1czGaw2i30Nk42jzJZWIxaJ/uIZzLDAQuxbMzUoQOogfyWRg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=iki.fi; s=lahtoruutu; t=1631827046; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=T6NsGZ/6SljC/XOKJ28sN43Y3D8miegpccMIWVE+S0w=; b=ZKXzmRYmDVqYVhhs+kQU/VRsgPgSi81WOl1U9tdluIPfnZk0V0FUc2mLnHAw1BWp75pmCc T+HMIYt+AT9d508hoE/kcMPXTpk8+F8A+BT2JKdAwybcHp2+pKCDYwG0FLMCWvkq9jw1+x 38bbwre4/1yMpN+I/ZrEy6sUAa+RsYY6zCNWr032nITD6pGb+bbqBx/LOnGQU48iK5peLU oxqGkZuRuc0EYxQlLPt5mBQG/ljM59mhTSTvTv/zM4Y2EhzD55vBoT7RXLwAjjNkzfLGog MSjcrAz9OFzzoAoo5fBhVYsOS591iQMW1Fg41z9Wiu3d6IY1gphR2ByRrs9Vfw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; ORIGINATING; auth=pass smtp.auth=kivinen@iki.fi smtp.mailfrom=kivinen@iki.fi Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:17:41 -0000 Carsten Bormann writes: >=20 > > On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >=20 > > Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. >=20 > (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was a serious proposal. > I=E2=80=99ll treat is as such for the purpose of this message.) I also think this automatic delete after 30 days would be good improvement. Or actually I would say 30 days after last edit (and if the last editor has datatracker account we could send email notifying that the note will expire in 7 days or similar).=20 In addition that we do need an easy way to transfer data from the notes.ietf.org to the datatracker. I.e., a way I can go to the datatracker for my WG, and say this note in the notes.ietf.org should be imported to the datatracker with this title (i.e., interm meeting notes, or IETF xxx minutes or whatever).=20 > Or, don=E2=80=99t offer the service at all=3F > (Probably better than deleting it 30 days after creation (!).) >=20 > Most of the people who have done work in the IETF know about the > value of accessing random traces of that work from the past. After a > couple of decades, we mostly got rid of the 6-month ideology around > Internet-Drafts; I wouldn=E2=80=99t want to repeat that painful exper= ience. >=20 > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io or > Google docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a > common service is that, after a while, everybody knows how to use it > and we can integrate it into other tools. >=20 > Crippling such a service because we can=E2=80=99t figure out how to k= eep up > some ideology strikes me as an expression of contempt for the work > of the IETF=E2=80=99s contributors. You don=E2=80=99t have to feel th= e same way, but > it should be well understood that this is the signal that is being > sent. The problem with notes.ietf.org is not that we can't keep the data, itis that we can't find the data. I have no idea what was the etherpad url for my session 4 years ago. I can most likely find it from the chair slides if I happened to copy it there, but otherwise I would need to go and find it from the somewhere else. If we force people to move pages out from notes.ietf.org after the session finishes, they are archived in the location where we can actually find them. They can be stored to the datatracker as minutes etc, or they can be moved to the working group wiki or similar. Storing data is useless if people can't find it, and etherpad/notes.ietf.org are both in that category. --=20 kivinen@iki.fi From nobody Thu Sep 16 14:27:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 427633A0B53 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:26:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3p9oMRYSwzXq for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx36-out21.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out21.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78C5C3A0B46 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xse73.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.73] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx133.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mQyuA-0009Hs-K7 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:26:51 +0200 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4H9VX91MVZzBGJ for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.49] (helo=xmail11.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mQyu9-0001MG-2b for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:26:49 -0700 Received: (qmail 27865 invoked from network); 16 Sep 2021 21:26:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.103]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.141]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail11.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 16 Sep 2021 21:26:48 -0000 To: Tero Kivinen , Carsten Bormann Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <24899.46182.82529.393383@fireball.acr.fi> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: <8aa7c46f-39db-6efc-941e-55c661347e0b@huitema.net> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:26:48 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24899.46182.82529.393383@fireball.acr.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.73 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5xYBsnYv/AS8SzTL27x6/ipEuOubvMjlOVGoG6MTUBsWIJL M0i5ZAms0EHrvcCaVINvIUvqaFRyjrIcJLzRrslOzIXV52OyeiH3YVVX92r9x1Hy6O0dCYlf9T05 vJHa3fKcXUnX/NPpaaHkXcvmoaj84xG2XC2LNoOkp4vxUMQqVx6IjGdSKn6aI9pXlx3shQxNOuP9 1GZ8SLb9PsvsohdeIRFsicyJMEhQFtD8PLoinjFCU0tibMaZMfiByLA2q5th8eXuGDB+WvlcaPhs +IMOep61KNolF2DlH2a2LdpMMmtrv2iUsvl2CC901V0YBrviEnzvvDcGs5qmm9XDE2pdZWZmIMWJ G2DzNierwWd45v2o1X92Cn4UU9JJ17dQkS7izDj4VfLGYhV5rU4pWppWERZjMvwfvbhZOry+t8BT U6S6BiS1pgrDY9yDlGBfLaRjewJ1p2KNOGtnsuIcf3b/prnOfejoy0ryl/SE9sCR4JkwTwd6I5MF c+Z5FxsZqYBzHDeqqFz43py4SDhdaHkWtttM+AEGzHMWbMjn66ZaUCrNIt931t/mGMxkBVmaFrrv 0WvccUdI+IzEq7KENpKmYu8C5mJ57ZG9g9QfbBpIF04i48Xcfj93b8optspViB3ujwN5vAr2fQEN gxhN/KmvT74ZEqLd8l9FM+v8+4kcTQW9a+S94i0vsohoujsUQr9Z+JJDNDyg1Ws2Rd4k3jeTgNkF OcBBatyNM1QnEFvsP6saNVwAnl+5fdd/JjOg93chu1/rdU1t/SWu+yxj6TsAPm6ecXYJStDsRX7f ZJL7tBxHx5OlXOwSpUqAHfd6HCyN9/YGRrhMRGhIOTxMW00yF8F1u0YDQf8cLP9taeSLFY0fPBnF 89BphpBNlUg+TzHwBTL1+6vDOMemz/4I88NDcmnEJ4r7C+SwLRamrhQTd3PrpJpP5ewAjeqkzRNl ucyd+NO2McmveAr4ch9F7rE89jihx+Za/cV70jOJzN2r4A== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:26:58 -0000 On 9/16/2021 2:17 PM, Tero Kivinen wrote: > The problem with notes.ietf.org is not that we can't keep the data, > itis that we can't find the data. I have no idea what was the etherpad > url for my session 4 years ago. I can most likely find it from the > chair slides if I happened to copy it there, but otherwise I would > need to go and find it from the somewhere else. Of course, that creates a special problem for archival, standard processes, etc. What if someone writes something they should not, gets the point across in the WG, and then edits the note to remove the offensive text? What is supposed to be archived? Just the note, or the whole editing history? -- Christian Huitema From nobody Thu Sep 16 15:16:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E715B3A0E32; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:16:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L8255EDkQkHR; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1030.google.com (mail-pj1-x1030.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1030]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498B33A0E2D; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1030.google.com with SMTP id nn5-20020a17090b38c500b0019af1c4b31fso5852829pjb.3; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:16:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=693+hQlbPea3hHdyUv4U3o54fSAJP/HC9rFYr7gAbE8=; b=VjaUymo8QBwEPUo53AMCvOi8ooFDK5ZLYIuGICajBGnjiIsew1g7DO/6eZX5u01h44 GOQsJxqU+tWtqfQskLcIxk2Nz/yemWaGQogHtGQlCEjV+Qx2LEbUS3XgXOJsnPlz+QyP 4Ee9bOkjBx3WRB4E4rsDp9j1mIVwV839Q2lgcP1urjyIr4ryTjcaYRSPPp846w3ml1rb vUYARcJop/QLWo1ak9Bot9Lf0+bVkueq524JsGYcaYB6sDkLOoHOWEA5+6lfP/xERBJA PJyHdmg2QrmEQGIDxSCPSwRztr72CxTLQJUjnXEUfTk9ogM7QphzzHIq/oH4b9GWJEjE Abgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=693+hQlbPea3hHdyUv4U3o54fSAJP/HC9rFYr7gAbE8=; b=5TdAOFbANQWPR/hmjjU9SmhC/ei8ZIwiOGQ4J3jjKqKLGOLy3ABsyYG+MAzPWBMNcV jATU4991DnBN0N+qQpfnjUp4MrTB023ILVWwMKzi8rCfgtwv6baLQ1luRUsc2c0cxaQB Zmgk3uQuiNa2cG3ApfadlVtjQjTQBxcRQpUVrBGRxeUjxW/ONZ8iAzUT0v5Vbd9zFQJf Mk0pRlAoaJPeAagkhnJZqXbH1d39GPjohu21SttDRPDtteJXo5SZGMcEoFw6jx86Stjv vqPxd0PnQj0awbdkJwmniCCkuw19JFnimotU8xA6D1fK93M1edwJWwPB3wM58J80ZGGC pJ6w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532+MDts7ZsnN1MR4htvq4/e7MidL3GjsBeCIkM0mUJw/zT8cXul yAaE21pg/KTfbE5gthgpQkua3lZT2GVHdQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwAfBRvXxUmLAXJu85OsWj5CKKZyCC2M8RCFoO+NHMy15jhKi451zziRpmNF1Fxwd7ODbS7MA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:7503:: with SMTP id q3mr8448312pjk.161.1631830583714; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i7sm4129265pgd.56.2021.09.16.15.16.20 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:16:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Henk Birkholz , Michael Richardson , Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <93bdbb89-4aca-267c-6970-11f1c307003d@gmail.com> <13291778-0f4c-58d8-4d8b-ec6928cdaae8@sit.fraunhofer.de> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:16:18 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <13291778-0f4c-58d8-4d8b-ec6928cdaae8@sit.fraunhofer.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 22:16:31 -0000 On 17-Sep-21 09:14, Henk Birkholz wrote: > Minutes are not the only notes taken at notes.ietf.org. I would stop=20 > using it, if things would simply disappear, obviously. How is this a=20 > good idea? Henk, I may well be old-fashioned, but when I want something to be kept, I keep it: save it on my disk, and make sure it's in a directory that gets backed up routinely. Anybody who used geocities.com knows why. (I'm biased on this question. In about 1993 I tried to persuade Tim Berners-Lee to make an expiry date obligatory for every HTML page. I still think he was wrong to refuse.) It's also important to specify this from the start. We probably don't want rough notes to become part of the public record of standards activities, and subject to subpoena. Brian >=20 >=20 > On 16.09.21 23:09, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 17-Sep-21 07:22, Michael Richardson wrote: >>> >>> Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> >> On 16. Sep 2021, at 09:46, Mark Nottingham wr= ote: >>> >> >>> >> Or, just automatically delete notes 30 days after creation. >>> >>> > (Again, I don=E2=80=99t know whether this was a serious propos= al. >> I=E2=80=99ll treat >>> > is as such for the purpose of this message.) >>> >>> Well, I'm serious. >>> I think 30 days might be way too long. >>> >>> WG and design team leaders should know to download minutes at the end=20 of the >>> session. It's not hard. >>> But, in order to train that, the contents needs to disappear within t= he >> day, >>> and there will be some crying. Some WG session minutes will go away= =2E >> >> One day is too short; back in the good old days, when most of us suffe= red >> jet lag after each meeting, a week to capture the minutes and copy-edi= t >> them was hardly enough. But I do agree, this is a major duty of WG cha= irs >> or secretaries, and needs to be done promptly. >> >> I wouldn't call it notes.ietf.org. I'd call it temp.ietf.org. Or at le= ast, >> put everything in notes.ietf.org/temp/ and move it to notes.ietf.org/r= ecycle/ >> after 30 days and then to /dev/null after another 30 days. Something l= ike >> that, anyway, depending on how it would integrate with HedgeDoc. >> >> Brian >>> >>> > Collecting notes in our own service (as opposed to hackmd.io o= r Google >>> > docs) gives us more control. Another benefit of having a comm= on >>> > service is that, after a while, everybody knows how to use it = and >> we >>> > can integrate it into other tools. >>> >>> Agreed. >>> >>> >> From nobody Thu Sep 16 16:40:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80DAD3A0A64; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:40:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2IO20ZcZwzDS; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E2843A0A62; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4H9YV73SP2z6GBB6; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:40:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1631835615; bh=IWBBjfIjC4J+pu7AYjU/+BewENMSJxFI0d8NoaaxuA0=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Ko6wWxjYFGNyb1O1qzcKsy5KQRGXulAfs7PVBzqj3/DqlU0tJ85NbzONReziGVc4L 5BFCuvzpDbKv8n68XO5pSvD7wZCLL6u9hdZMP6fggPUGfrR7aaFc1b9zZlWBjUsBUf 1ut+3jG7fp10In5RImb8Fpy+1kV7JDiYRmE+Kjlc= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H9YV64vMmz6GBB7; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Richardson , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:40:13 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1536418.1631821801@dooku> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:40:22 -0000 To amplify Michael's point and respond to a couple of others... 1) These are draft notes. They are likely to be wrong. If we archive them, we may be archiving information that is false to fact. That is why chairs / WG Secretaries review minutes before posting, and then ask the WG to review them as well. We should not expect the leadership to maintain two sets of accurate minutes. So getting rid of the draft is good. 2) If folks want to use the tools for something else, great. But that does not create an obligation on the IETF to make the tool behave differently. If there is some other use case that is needed, either use some other tool, or convince the IETF that we need a tool to support the use case you have. Yours, Joel On 9/16/2021 3:50 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Christian Huitema wrote: > > The IETF already archives mail messages and Internet drafts. How hard > > would it be to archive notes and minutes? After all, this texts are > > part of the standard making process, covered by the Note Well, etc. > > Sure, just upload them as minutes to the DT, and it gets archived already. > > For now, WG chairs need to do that, which also means that they have an > opportunity to review the conent. > > A significant annoyance is that we don't have a standard markdown across all our > content archives. > > From nobody Thu Sep 16 16:55:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95B673A0BCF for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:54:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=O6+98CO5; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=iDghYbfI Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1fXoDEVO-A8y for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47E083A0BD2 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 16:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7601F5C0184 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:54:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:54:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=8t3u7Lrot0o2WWBDwOxMQvHWCBmIyiw Ocmb3QoGEAd8=; b=O6+98CO5v+W907AQylB6VMmYUT/5Ugig+YFgGLi2y1MM6uq 35hhHc2OUTTH8yLiry6VKkcJitP92VRAYYtu+GGkvW5v0h4ivAQzReepvy8TEDj8 TkZocDct1pPIHSLQCykzaeSjqMylPIRvEatSezf/Xrf+osj0y14Yc8F682uwWEVs reSo88jFclRFx/aHs3lAfRIZTNd4dCVQ0QBOGBHM4rNdwolTXh+fRzZwBBU67SWb hQnyK8nLkCBQMDwuGRiG8auGSqUozSVp0THiQcCTdCgCkHorrtkNnUBDq4d9FSCo d1RA0R9a+Uvds27LsfVS9RIwwpz5HbYjzBb3IFg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=8t3u7L rot0o2WWBDwOxMQvHWCBmIyiwOcmb3QoGEAd8=; b=iDghYbfISOzswbJRSbRsGi /nL391Tskw/ld1BgUsfRfgUOxzvi3Dr4lXjudI36R1XGa8Oz3yfIhYwHRRQFKe+a NEy5SoUEgxYgR7umspBFJSQcEOqoR3UVTeBBJMXZVb0Ks786i20125GOTXE3EqSA KDaygLQd+0yPRylt/nFs8ocSHOngYVoBIxtI7QXWtI5Pakl2CtSkIO40Rcf92BnQ dT1cO7iTsQWQEn+5Y+UDwL2zxAbbtNiqjneuiWtG55C8AG2ZKueWfofmYdASKt2j wta6NFqQL4YHh5URyX6JfkOTYkg0jF88EPs1zcFLw5zkmMqYzc19cRRQq4J+0qfw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudehhedgvdejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeffgffhffekgedtudfffe evieeiieeggefgueffleevleeftedvtdfgtefhffejtdenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhf rdhorhhgpdiffedrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmh grihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1AEEB3C0D56; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:54:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1291-gc66fc0a3a2-fm-20210913.001-gc66fc0a3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:54:23 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:54:59 -0000 Thanks for the links Robert, but a small query. On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, at 00:29, Robert Sparks wrote: > rfcdiff is at www.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff (this is where you will land if > you use the diff features from the History tab any draft. Is http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=... a final location and the replacement for https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=... ? I ask only because the pyht thing might be something you want to remove (see https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html and "What to leave out"). From nobody Thu Sep 16 19:15:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E0743A187D; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:15:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9DLIXKUsF76I; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 642363A187B; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H9cwv6qTZz2xQ5; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 04:15:11 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 04:15:11 +0200 Cc: Michael Richardson , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 653537711.556407-e715fc3bf96a70352f9919e428f97bd7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 02:15:22 -0000 On 2021-09-17, at 01:40, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >=20 > 2) If folks want to use the tools for something else, great. But that = does not create an obligation on the IETF to make the tool behave = differently. If there is some other use case that is needed, either use = some other tool, or convince the IETF that we need a tool to support the = use case you have. Joel, You are falling prey to an availability bias here. You have only ever been using that tool for minutes, so you think the = tool needs to be changed to more closely follow some random thinking = about minutes. I don=E2=80=99t care that much whether the IETF destroys its draft = minutes, because I do know to back up those drafts that I=E2=80=99ll = likely need. But leading this discussion in complete disregard for the other uses of = this tool is exactly the kind of =E2=80=9CI don=E2=80=99t understand = this, so let=E2=80=99s break it=E2=80=9D thinking that has recently = become so characteristic of IETF process discussions. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 16 19:33:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11CBB3A18FD; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:32:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=p6WLL25z; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=IQMCWT9d Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id znPomfk5iFjc; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8BC93A18FA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 121553200941; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 22:32:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 22:32:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=w DpMX5Wp/NbQR1UneYOSYh82jb8qfrOTWiGmkXocraI=; b=p6WLL25zIb/wz6gUr Zm723ojK4hpGNnojgxDAhRZP452Jlq5oWmY3/5pnFuMwTd5P8+aX8/b6yqNtE32Z 7AwS29DROxCBuDfbiF0iqGbPce73DtaG5EEt8Wkg4Vf0f+fdQWDf1kUvIWtTrqEL P7CCHlW94RD5Knr1RQMIZyVCQ8Lv2ZsTsZ5SS/TCdXjjQyRhUQdDkAA0BD4HQ/y2 IK6+46kJpyGZoZ0HYNCKjjQ3PBH5MModZNcvLpIQ9wy51HOdvpZMqewZezvquR7p F/BBaYJCZ8yyJQPCMvDbxDRiOqmQ2c7ajR+LpA5qTFTJJaU2B/naV9NiDF1LoDpW ifYtQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=wDpMX5Wp/NbQR1UneYOSYh82jb8qfrOTWiGmkXocr aI=; b=IQMCWT9dEFHAA17Jb7JwYEU9aOCwFGrx+oLI1GztbujY39CzTWxbm24X9 UGC2pza8xvwChOKB4J62nDSeeEUlbdpTHueqxyDUMoSxDs1hBDH9UZCF3uR1LgEh 5e/cXSJFu3qzTWQjYeWmy21iLLeEoZlX6IRuD6SenQA6ADtHN9mWQE/tCH5yp9nb ahAjymwPrThmJ3FW9SRhjgojT5/wlX4CiadmuIra+IU3NQ/hX4tTYvxEHC/NefDw mW4Ttb6M04Sqpk2R3l1CSmYivZSCvQs9dDsetqg5pLM7SbbMnlDxmSoVUH8XnbCp 0HohOo779yib8USXzANRdphqfRm3Q== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudehhedgheelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpefhieffhefgtdekteejfffhgfegieelieeljeeigfdutddtvdehfeekgfevvdel keenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtpdhivghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhn vght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 22:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:32:24 +1000 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , Michael Richardson , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss , Working Chairs Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 02:32:38 -0000 Carsten, It has been an informal tool for some time. I (along with others, = apparently) am concerned about it becoming a formal dependency by = stealth, consuming resources and causing confusion. If you have use cases for it, that's great -- bring them up and we can = have a discussion about whether they should be supported (with the = corresponding dedication of resources). You haven't done that, though - = you seem to be assuming that because you've used an informal tool in a = particular way in the past, that will automatically be supported on an = ongoing basis. In doing so, you've now also characterised others' positions in a = disparaging way and expressed cynicism about the IETF process. I = understand you may be frustrated, but I don't think doing so is = constructive. Cheers, > On 17 Sep 2021, at 12:15 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 2021-09-17, at 01:40, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>=20 >> 2) If folks want to use the tools for something else, great. But = that does not create an obligation on the IETF to make the tool behave = differently. If there is some other use case that is needed, either use = some other tool, or convince the IETF that we need a tool to support the = use case you have. >=20 > Joel, >=20 > You are falling prey to an availability bias here. >=20 > You have only ever been using that tool for minutes, so you think the = tool needs to be changed to more closely follow some random thinking = about minutes. > I don=E2=80=99t care that much whether the IETF destroys its draft = minutes, because I do know to back up those drafts that I=E2=80=99ll = likely need. >=20 > But leading this discussion in complete disregard for the other uses = of this tool is exactly the kind of =E2=80=9CI don=E2=80=99t understand = this, so let=E2=80=99s break it=E2=80=9D thinking that has recently = become so characteristic of IETF process discussions. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Sep 16 19:41:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE88B3A1940 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:41:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fozh3KZatwB5 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4B2C3A193E for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18H2extB044232 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:40:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631846460; bh=3ZCQ3p9xGhXMCNbeJ/RumXv79o2Me8qTPUyCZBLpEas=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=WySbi7vjmRmypiU3nyESb5DxhhwZUqF0+SRtph0R/eGhKiXdM6N2cQlq0O+cRlCfy MTqqOWvEO37I1LUlOEeFmfeQxfGUZdx3eO5U/coyzOZK736zDr7Z6vUmUBw/xKBXLu UlJxB8ezjaAVnJnA9zFLrcsMFlHhIFHmUB8uwmrU= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Thomson References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:40:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 02:41:07 -0000 Um, wow? No - where did you find the link that exposed the pyht - did I send=20 that? I'm surprised it works, and is an unintended consequence of the=20 webserver configuration. It should simply be http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/?url1=3D at least at the moment - I think we should probably put things like=20 rfcdiff, idnits, idspell, or such somewhere that's not buried in=20 www.ietf.org, but perhaps that's another conversation. The phyt bit is an implementation detail that may change, and shouldn't=20 be visible. Please let me know offline what led you to it. RjS On 9/16/21 6:54 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > Thanks for the links Robert, but a small query. > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, at 00:29, Robert Sparks wrote: >> rfcdiff is at www.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff (this is where you will land = if >> you use the diff features from the History tab any draft. > Is http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3D... a final location= and the replacement for https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3D... ? > > I ask only because the pyht thing might be something you want to remove= (see https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html and "What to leave out")= =2E > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Thu Sep 16 19:44:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5631F3A1970 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:44:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pq6FVQtuqP9u for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A984B3A1969 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18H2iSmb045416 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:44:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631846669; bh=e6J2t0z5lYxs3wUzI4nbq3KLvXeiBkMPCZXURKaK1pY=; h=Subject:From:To:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=A24b1Q6uXmwpg5GLpOX5y/Gj57q4Bhs9boq4VD4XgR7FxpF1FHta9ITWzEPwRvKwV JLXywt+kKgFCBRW4xOE+Czar8rlrxuezp9rt8TsrqO0f54zHygWVAU7B1ElT8bkgir CcvR8YUuWI+GbdvfneW4faQ6TOhoPoCd7ZswpKrA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain From: Robert Sparks To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Martin Thomson References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> Message-ID: <457dc09f-e14d-139a-10b9-ddd6a4f1e3b1@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:44:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 02:44:36 -0000 Ah - I see at least one place where it leaks (in the instructions at the bottom of the default form - I will be sure that is addressed. Thanks for calling attention to it - if you see it anywhere else, please let me know. RjS On 9/16/21 9:40 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: > Um, wow? > > No - where did you find the link that exposed the pyht - did I send > that? I'm surprised it works, and is an unintended consequence of the > webserver configuration. > > It should simply be http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/?url1= > > at least at the moment - I think we should probably put things like > rfcdiff, idnits, idspell, or such somewhere that's not buried in > www.ietf.org, but perhaps that's another conversation. > > The phyt bit is an implementation detail that may change, and > shouldn't be visible. Please let me know offline what led you to it. > > RjS > > On 9/16/21 6:54 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >> Thanks for the links Robert, but a small query. >> >> On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, at 00:29, Robert Sparks wrote: >>> rfcdiff is at www.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff (this is where you will >>> land if >>> you use the diff features from the History tab any draft. >> Is http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=... a final location >> and the replacement for https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=... ? >> >> I ask only because the pyht thing might be something you want to >> remove (see https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html and "What to >> leave out"). >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Thu Sep 16 19:48:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8805F3A198B; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:48:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id coveWg9EFfxX; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE9F53A1988; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 19:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H9dfj0hxcz2xQF; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 04:47:57 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 04:47:56 +0200 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , Michael Richardson , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss , Working Chairs X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 653539675.764185-279781ffcb7a31efb79d78d0ddbf0b4b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 02:48:08 -0000 > In doing so, you've now also characterised others' positions in a = disparaging way and expressed cynicism about the IETF process. I = understand you may be frustrated, but I don't think doing so is = constructive. Mark, sometimes it is absolutely necessary to express how a discourse makes = one feel. Yes, this discussion is frustrating and unlikely to lead anywhere good, = and I have to choose my battles. I made my points, and I will shut up now. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 16 21:15:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 029EC3A1C57; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:12:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vil2utZ1VLgl; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E25353A1C55; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 21:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.201]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4H9gT00gs4z67lJ7; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:09:40 +0800 (CST) Received: from dggeml752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.151) by fraeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.8; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:11:55 +0200 Received: from dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.152) by dggeml752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.8; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:11:53 +0800 Received: from dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.152]) by dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.152]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.008; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:11:53 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Brian E Carpenter , Michael Richardson , Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival Thread-Index: AdereARHCmUYmZlNTriGcv6ttZe/1g== Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 04:11:53 +0000 Message-ID: <4846744018e545e7a5b20f626ebb02ad@huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.123.117] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 04:12:06 -0000 T24gMTctU2VwLTIxIDA3OjIyLCBNaWNoYWVsIFJpY2hhcmRzb24gd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0KPiBDYXJz 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URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id usjadRVhktt9 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C6783A249F for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 23:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4H9jvK285Yz67M1h; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:59:09 +0800 (CST) Received: from dggeml752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.151) by fraeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.8; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:01:25 +0200 Received: from dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.152) by dggeml752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.8; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 14:01:20 +0800 Received: from dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.152]) by dggeml753-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.152]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.008; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 14:01:19 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , "Benjamin Kaduk" , Donald Eastlake , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: slow tools reaction Thread-Index: AderiV03T1fzeK3iSICUOrTudWK5CA== Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:01:19 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.123.117] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 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2021 08:47:46.7550 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: v9IPOq/YaacJjtx2JXg4ghI02o3G0XV0+r8kwIWlWeLU1velYsnDspZVG2iq1JGmBit01NhcQvmi5dmVuOQzfA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR0701MB6750 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:48:00 -0000 On 17/09/2021 03:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Carsten, > > It has been an informal tool for some time. I (along with others, apparently) am concerned about it becoming a formal dependency by stealth, consuming resources and causing confusion. Mark That is the way the IETF works; I do not think that it is a good way but it is the way. If I want to know what resources are available, as in supported, maintained, told when they will be withdrawn and such like, I know of nowhere to go. I think this is the reason why a survey earlier this year showed great variation in how I-D are produced; there is nowhere to go to find out. I have been pointed at, or stumbled across, ways of getting work done in the IETF and get upset when they disappear with or without warning. I had never heard of notes.ietf.org prior to this thread. If I had, I might have found it useful and become dependent on it:-( Go look at tools.ietf.org with the eyes of someone who has been told the way to do it in the IETF it to write an I-D. First thing you see is RFC Dependency checker followed by Bibtex Citation Converter ... We do a really bad job of encouraging people to write I-D. Tom Petch > If you have use cases for it, that's great -- bring them up and we can have a discussion about whether they should be supported (with the corresponding dedication of resources). You haven't done that, though - you seem to be assuming that because you've used an informal tool in a particular way in the past, that will automatically be supported on an ongoing basis. > > In doing so, you've now also characterised others' positions in a disparaging way and expressed cynicism about the IETF process. I understand you may be frustrated, but I don't think doing so is constructive. > > Cheers, > > >> On 17 Sep 2021, at 12:15 pm, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> >> On 2021-09-17, at 01:40, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> >>> 2) If folks want to use the tools for something else, great. But that does not create an obligation on the IETF to make the tool behave differently. If there is some other use case that is needed, either use some other tool, or convince the IETF that we need a tool to support the use case you have. >> >> Joel, >> >> You are falling prey to an availability bias here. >> >> You have only ever been using that tool for minutes, so you think the tool needs to be changed to more closely follow some random thinking about minutes. >> I don’t care that much whether the IETF destroys its draft minutes, because I do know to back up those drafts that I’ll likely need. >> >> But leading this discussion in complete disregard for the other uses of this tool is exactly the kind of “I don’t understand this, so let’s break it” thinking that has recently become so characteristic of IETF process discussions. >> >> Grüße, Carsten >> > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > . > From nobody Fri Sep 17 06:07:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost 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verify=NO); Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:28:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1631885319; bh=1WRCASPiqRkMQVH5EppAZLExNRA7OsefRzK1hjVNKHU=; h=To:Cc:References:Reply-To:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=nu8WtQHGq/C+h/zlKIqFdPTYmD5FkreIWRkXsvpQqlYaV5wCkEbv3nxmD9/Z/8bG7 MIR7Z/OXMfXvzyM+aihrjsHKUWbKaB3+EwNuEDE+fSgzRAoKcduZTHx72ajMrPquou S+TbqBwq0YYlnYXDfkKW5kr6uzy7Dm+u/UhaJFJw= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Carsten Bormann , Mark Nottingham Cc: Michael Richardson , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss , Working Chairs References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> Reply-To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <0ef0933a-72c3-b335-72bb-858ef6868784@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:28:32 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:28:46 -0000 (Setting Reply-To once again - lets please reduce the crossposting and=20 move the whole conversation onto tools-discuss@) I'm going to take up part of Carsten's argument now, attempting to wear=20 no hats. I personally don't want a "delete n days after creation" type of policy. = I could accept (and probably support) a "delete after n days of=20 inactivity" policy where n was large - at least two meeting-cycles=20 large, if not larger. This tool is being used for other things than working group minuting. There are teams that I am on that have used notes as places to develop=20 things like tools implementation plans - the notes served a longer than=20 a few (even 30) days purpose until the effort finished. I can see the=20 same being useful for design teams, where the real artifacts that come=20 out are emails to the list and drafts. The expectation, in my opinion,=20 is that these should be expected to be there for awhile, but not _forever= _. What I don't think is ok is carrying the need to redirect these urls a=20 few years from now when the technology under them has moved on. URLs=20 into this service shouldn't be placed in RFCs, giving us the burden to=20 preserve the content and its location forever. Putting my tools team hat back on - hedgedoc does not (to my knowledge)=20 support this autodelete concept at this time. We could make a feature=20 request whether or not it ends up being something we decide to use. But=20 should we decide to have such a delete policy, it would be some time=20 before it is implemented. RjS On 9/16/21 9:47 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> In doing so, you've now also characterised others' positions in a disp= araging way and expressed cynicism about the IETF process. I understand y= ou may be frustrated, but I don't think doing so is constructive. > Mark, > > sometimes it is absolutely necessary to express how a discourse makes o= ne feel. > > Yes, this discussion is frustrating and unlikely to lead anywhere good,= and I have to choose my battles. > > I made my points, and I will shut up now. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > From nobody Fri Sep 17 06:32:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 838443A1988 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:32:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cYIy2kQpMPEN for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B804F3A1975 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H9vyF22TQz2xKJ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 15:32:21 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <0ef0933a-72c3-b335-72bb-858ef6868784@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 15:32:20 +0200 Cc: Mark Nottingham , Michael Richardson X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 653578340.808957-d412f678ce88034a5df9dcd34e36d580 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> <0ef0933a-72c3-b335-72bb-858ef6868784@nostrum.com> To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:32:32 -0000 > On 2021-09-17, at 15:28, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > (Setting Reply-To once again - lets please reduce the crossposting and = move the whole conversation onto tools-discuss@) (Reply-to doesn=E2=80=99t act on wide replies. So I did this manually.) > I'm going to take up part of Carsten's argument now, attempting to = wear no hats. I promised to shut up, but for the avoidance of doubt, I'm completely in = line with everything that Robert said. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > I personally don't want a "delete n days after creation" type of = policy. I could accept (and probably support) a "delete after n days of = inactivity" policy where n was large - at least two meeting-cycles = large, if not larger. >=20 > This tool is being used for other things than working group minuting. >=20 > There are teams that I am on that have used notes as places to develop = things like tools implementation plans - the notes served a longer than = a few (even 30) days purpose until the effort finished. I can see the = same being useful for design teams, where the real artifacts that come = out are emails to the list and drafts. The expectation, in my opinion, = is that these should be expected to be there for awhile, but not = _forever_. >=20 > What I don't think is ok is carrying the need to redirect these urls a = few years from now when the technology under them has moved on. URLs = into this service shouldn't be placed in RFCs, giving us the burden to = preserve the content and its location forever. >=20 > Putting my tools team hat back on - hedgedoc does not (to my = knowledge) support this autodelete concept at this time. We could make a = feature request whether or not it ends up being something we decide to = use. But should we decide to have such a delete policy, it would be some = time before it is implemented. >=20 > RjS >=20 >=20 > On 9/16/21 9:47 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> In doing so, you've now also characterised others' positions in a = disparaging way and expressed cynicism about the IETF process. I = understand you may be frustrated, but I don't think doing so is = constructive. >> Mark, >>=20 >> sometimes it is absolutely necessary to express how a discourse makes = one feel. >>=20 >> Yes, this discussion is frustrating and unlikely to lead anywhere = good, and I have to choose my battles. >>=20 >> I made my points, and I will shut up now. >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Sep 17 06:51:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33E53A1A35; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:51:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XVDQgul3QwLO; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00A3A3A1A36; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1mREGm-000P9F-53; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:51:12 -0400 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:51:06 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: tools-discuss , Carsten Bormann , Mark Nottingham cc: Michael Richardson , IETF discussion list Message-ID: <00B01D3BCB06DD313F89256A@PSB> In-Reply-To: <0ef0933a-72c3-b335-72bb-858ef6868784@nostrum.com> References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> <0ef0933a-72c3-b335-72bb-858ef6868784@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:51:21 -0000 Robert, (Still copying ietf@ because I think these issues are important to the whole community, not just those with the time and energy to track tools-discuss) I don't know the notes facility well enough to ask this question precisely --I qualify as one of those who had barely heard of it before these threads started -- but it seems to me that you've made a strong case for per-thread timeouts/ delete limits. Some things (like minutes) should disappear quickly for reasons others have given; others (like design team efforts) may need "after inactivity" or other much longer timeouts. So it sounds as if any feature requests should allow for per-thread/ per-activity timeouts, not just a global setting or that we should start distinguishing, RSN, among different types of = notes. FWIW, I note that, while I-Ds supposedly expire after six months, things have evolved to the point that we still say that but old ones are essentially treated as archival with no special effort need to get to them. That is an extreme example of the bottom of the slippery slope I think others have been concerned about. best, john --On Friday, September 17, 2021 08:28 -0500 Robert Sparks wrote: > (Setting Reply-To once again - lets please reduce the > crossposting and move the whole conversation onto > tools-discuss@) >=20 > I'm going to take up part of Carsten's argument now, > attempting to wear no hats. >=20 > I personally don't want a "delete n days after creation" type > of policy. I could accept (and probably support) a "delete > after n days of inactivity" policy where n was large - at > least two meeting-cycles large, if not larger. >=20 > This tool is being used for other things than working group > minuting. >=20 > There are teams that I am on that have used notes as places to > develop things like tools implementation plans - the notes > served a longer than a few (even 30) days purpose until the > effort finished. I can see the same being useful for design > teams, where the real artifacts that come out are emails to > the list and drafts. The expectation, in my opinion, is that > these should be expected to be there for awhile, but not > _forever_. >=20 > What I don't think is ok is carrying the need to redirect > these urls a few years from now when the technology under them > has moved on. URLs into this service shouldn't be placed in > RFCs, giving us the burden to preserve the content and its > location forever. >=20 > Putting my tools team hat back on - hedgedoc does not (to my > knowledge) support this autodelete concept at this time. We > could make a feature request whether or not it ends up being > something we decide to use. But should we decide to have such > a delete policy, it would be some time before it is > implemented. >=20 > RjS >=20 >=20 > On 9/16/21 9:47 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> In doing so, you've now also characterised others' positions >>> in a disparaging way and expressed cynicism about the IETF >>> process. I understand you may be frustrated, but I don't >>> think doing so is constructive. >> Mark, >>=20 >> sometimes it is absolutely necessary to express how a >> discourse makes one feel. >>=20 >> Yes, this discussion is frustrating and unlikely to lead >> anywhere good, and I have to choose my battles. >>=20 >> I made my points, and I will shut up now. >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Sep 17 07:21:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9503A1B59 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 07:21:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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I'd go with a more narrower definition and (likely) reinforce the current state: My expectation is that these should be there as long the corresponding tool is maintained, but not _forever_. Implying, I do not expect anyone to "rescue" my notes in case of tool migration. That kind of 'spring cleaning' is okay once in a while. What I do expect is a warning that a tool's maintenance is discontinued. That happened. In consequence, I am absolutely okay with the procedure well as its results. I am having a hard time to relate to what all the fuzz is about, tbh 😅 Viele Grüße, Henk On 17.09.21 15:28, Robert Sparks wrote: > (Setting Reply-To once again - lets please reduce the crossposting and > move the whole conversation onto tools-discuss@) > > I'm going to take up part of Carsten's argument now, attempting to wear > no hats. > > I personally don't want a "delete n days after creation" type of policy. > I could accept (and probably support) a "delete after n days of > inactivity" policy where n was large - at least two meeting-cycles > large, if not larger. > > This tool is being used for other things than working group minuting. > > There are teams that I am on that have used notes as places to develop > things like tools implementation plans - the notes served a longer than > a few (even 30) days purpose until the effort finished. I can see the > same being useful for design teams, where the real artifacts that come > out are emails to the list and drafts. The expectation, in my opinion, > is that these should be expected to be there for awhile, but not _forever_. > > What I don't think is ok is carrying the need to redirect these urls a > few years from now when the technology under them has moved on. URLs > into this service shouldn't be placed in RFCs, giving us the burden to > preserve the content and its location forever. > > Putting my tools team hat back on - hedgedoc does not (to my knowledge) > support this autodelete concept at this time. We could make a feature > request whether or not it ends up being something we decide to use. But > should we decide to have such a delete policy, it would be some time > before it is implemented. > > RjS > > > On 9/16/21 9:47 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> In doing so, you've now also characterised others' positions in a >>> disparaging way and expressed cynicism about the IETF process. I >>> understand you may be frustrated, but I don't think doing so is >>> constructive. >> Mark, >> >> sometimes it is absolutely necessary to express how a discourse makes >> one feel. >> >> Yes, this discussion is frustrating and unlikely to lead anywhere >> good, and I have to choose my battles. >> >> I made my points, and I will shut up now. >> >> Grüße, Carsten >> > From nobody Fri Sep 17 13:17:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876323A12B9 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:17:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g04fuPoetTfl for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102a.google.com (mail-pj1-x102a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA2103A12B8 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102a.google.com with SMTP id dw14so7722282pjb.1 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:17:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=RIrW5BIm7RAMneI6Su+E4CfEPmgvZ8gdB0Cy3rYFSIk=; b=EULC1XtpQaJpkMbnlwnNYp67oyHTPd2CVbURt5RHJ7qn+Cjxyik8qLvy/LYTBCSxqy ITWeoU+f53qtzPv6+AVGMijbxwAnSsMeQB9G0yvv9NxRYTK8SmjXGOchTKAiWqKYSyy4 70PZasI7CvP8tGfP9ZJMkIqGIlcGPNgbVZXi/69Y1kxJA+ho/jkplMSZ1MqnONb/u4qr lXkZtT2BpoHzjhdoqQXv3zQYidgZ1Iq8ohw32r6K8xCRAyyzPcqs5A5vACEkOLFR/ZGa lQVxdBqMl1fy1jDQV6HqTWCRhp7VBACAt5/QfvS/+8fX1+ZaTCWEsDvQw4zhFmCF3Eyw xpew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=RIrW5BIm7RAMneI6Su+E4CfEPmgvZ8gdB0Cy3rYFSIk=; b=b5Vy5cDM//XmkBCHGwxG0mW8ORTgvk8R9JsRDfNJPGxq72K0rVxr4XTPpQSf1u/MDA 5dKGb4RESbTqE+H1gFHTzrw3Izg3pajH+zkQ1Ad7Zcv5A52ARWNacdyg5aK7RjnSeJpR N/FOhCVnMa2fERyp5bLcLx6HW/r5lEQvZVXal+ibovd4R2rrrslBacUb8O/qjqgxDomK lVRqTy/4LQZzNEePULON3dIkNqPvJOx21k99rFZ9XXppadaJxYedBvfiauuks0DoT/Qw aTi0ChqV+Fhs/XlNA1A1nachne+QY7I9k9uJqCOJMVdowsjmfyunq1TMmV9mjA408ZsT X+Ng== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531P/WK92fZWfUZXS9VMAVAI2pZOcmvaSiY2e/meZ5PMZAkJqjxa J007ls8FxucBTB4f1zhL2maFDuwVFf/bLQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwZtu/OofL5HlNznjR92xGXAXkljh1ObIyEEmd0p2IdqXLJu7jejJk06Zog+5CdGd78xX6qSA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d58a:: with SMTP id v10mr14737071pju.23.1631909826590; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 20sm7152410pfi.170.2021.09.17.13.17.04 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:17:06 -0700 (PDT) To: Henk Birkholz , tools-discuss References: <2B11D777-9D50-490F-B7C6-9DD769C789A6@mnot.net> <1534366.1631820151@dooku> <1536418.1631821801@dooku> <5AFDEC57-64C2-4D96-BCD6-DF8A89F4A1FF@tzi.org> <22E5DDB0-7AE7-43F1-8BE6-F8141CFBC88B@mnot.net> <0ef0933a-72c3-b335-72bb-858ef6868784@nostrum.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <16b543c2-6634-0aac-5b4c-17a335bb29b1@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 08:17:03 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [irsg] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:17:13 -0000 Henk, > I am having a hard time to relate to what all the fuzz is about, tbh =F0= =9F=98=85 For me, the deepest concern is that if we don't have a clear and public d= eletion policy, this material will end up in prior art debates and subpoe= nas and we'd find ourselves obliged to keep it for ever. Regards Brian Carpenter From nobody Sat Sep 18 03:04:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0407E3A0B72 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 03:04:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.co.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BnOTGW5yAg5d for ; 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Sat, 18 Sep 2021 10:04:45 +0000 Received: by kubenode558.mail-prod1.omega.gq1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 84c1053a70546bb4f6c0563915b79fd6; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:54:35 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3EBD577A-39E7-4F4F-B4A6-D9BDD1B0FF7B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Lloyd W Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 19:54:31 +1000 Message-Id: <6C08B2BC-0E04-435D-A68E-3E61D3773DA9@yahoo.co.uk> References: Cc: Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss In-Reply-To: To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 10:04:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail-3EBD577A-39E7-4F4F-B4A6-D9BDD1B0FF7B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 16 Sep 2021, at 17:41, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > The message reminds me a bit of Windows UAC and the idea that users are re= sponsible for the reliability of their operating systems. That's as crazy as expecting drivers to be responsible for the reliability o= f the cars they drive. It will never catch on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Computer_Driving_Licence= --Apple-Mail-3EBD577A-39E7-4F4F-B4A6-D9BDD1B0FF7B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 16 Sep 2021, at 17:41, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:

The message reminds me a bit of Windows UAC and the idea that users are responsible for the reliability of their operating systems.

That's as crazy as expecting drivers to be responsible for the reliability of the cars they drive. It will never catch on.

--Apple-Mail-3EBD577A-39E7-4F4F-B4A6-D9BDD1B0FF7B-- From nobody Sat Sep 18 05:38:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 747D73A12B2 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 05:38:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K4u_BsLdZuK2 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 05:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate 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(Zhaohui) Zhang" , Benjamin Kaduk , Donald Eastlake , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: slow tools reaction Thread-Index: AdesiMA9tL2HT/VITGWFvtUDRwtctg== Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:37:49 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.123.117] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 12:38:01 -0000 SSBhZ3JlZSwgb25saW5lIHJmY2RpZmYgdG9vbCBpcyBleHRyZW1lbHkgdXNlZnVsLHdoaWNoIEkg dXNlZCBvZnRlbiBmb3IgZHJhZnQgdXBkYXRpbmcgY2hlY2tpbmcsIGFsdGhvdWdoIG9mZmxpbmUg dG9vbCBzdWNoIGFzIGJleW9uZCBjb21wYXJlIGNhbiBkbyB0aGUgc2ltaWxhciB0aGluZywgYnV0 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PTQwanVuaXBlci5uZXRAZG1hcmMuaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQo+ID4gU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBTZXB0 ZW1iZXIgMTUsIDIwMjEgNTozMzozMiBQTQ0KPiA+IFRvOiB3Z2NoYWlyc0BpZXRmLm9yZyA8d2dj aGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQo+ID4gU3ViamVjdDogc2xvdyB0b29scyByZWFjdGlvbg0KPiA+DQo+ ID4gSGksDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBJcyBpdCBqdXN0IG1lIG9yIGhhdmUgeW91IGFsc28gbm90aWNlZCB0 aGF0IElFVEYgdG9vbHMgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHF1aXRlIHNsb3cgcmVjZW50bHk/DQo+ID4NCj4gPiBU aGFua3MuDQo+ID4gSmVmZnJleQ0KPiA+DQo+ID4gSnVuaXBlciBCdXNpbmVzcyBVc2UgT25seQ0K PiA+DQo+DQoNCkp1bmlwZXIgQnVzaW5lc3MgVXNlIE9ubHkNCg0KSnVuaXBlciBCdXNpbmVzcyBV c2UgT25seQ0K From nobody Sat Sep 18 22:13:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 979443A1BA6 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 22:13:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SWCg1tOfNgzR for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 22:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADB5E3A1BA7 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 22:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 18J5CqVm029933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 19 Sep 2021 01:12:57 -0400 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 22:12:51 -0700 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Qin Wu Cc: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" , Donald Eastlake , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20210919051251.GA98042@kduck.mit.edu> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] slow tools reaction X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 05:13:16 -0000 For rfcdiff specifically, https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff lets you upload or reference arbitrary files. I haven't had a need for standalone idnits, so I have no data on that one. -Ben On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 12:37:49PM +0000, Qin Wu wrote: > I agree, online rfcdiff tool is extremely useful,which I used often for draft updating checking, although offline tool such as beyond compare can do the similar thing, but comparing with rfcdiff, not elegant as I thought when you get used to the rfcdiff. > > -Qin > -----邮件原件----- > 发件人: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net] > 发送时间: 2021年9月17日 21:07 > 收件人: Qin Wu ; Benjamin Kaduk ; Donald Eastlake ; tools-discuss@ietf.org > 主题: RE: slow tools reaction > > Hi Qin, > > While those tools are available for published drafts, sometimes we need to use them for some unpublished ones yet. For example, we may want to do a spell check, or do a diff of new (yet to be published) revision against an existing revision. Therefore, a separate tools page like current tools.ietf.org would be nice. > > Thanks. > Jeffrey > > -----Original Message----- > From: Qin Wu > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2021 2:01 AM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; Benjamin Kaduk ; Donald Eastlake ; tools-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: RE: slow tools reaction > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > Jeffrey: > -----邮件原件----- > 发件人: WGChairs [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] 代表 Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > 发送时间: 2021年9月16日 20:32 > 收件人: Benjamin Kaduk ; Donald Eastlake ; tools-discuss@ietf.org > 主题: RE: slow tools reaction > > [ moving to tools-discuss ] > > Hi Ben, > > > Thanks for pointing out the decommissioning. Sorry for not noticing the announcement before, and apparently there are quite some people like me 😊 > > Anyway, I use the diff/idnit/spell/xml2rfc and draft submission tools at tools.ietf.org and they've been slow recently. After learning that tools.ietf.org is replaced by the datatracker, I went to datatracker.ietf.org. There the only links related to the tools that I use are "Draft Submission" under the "Documents" tab, and "IETF Tools" at the lower right bottom. > > [Qin]: I have been realized that idnit tools has been slow recently in the datatracker. > Jeff, diff and idnites have been integrated into datastracker tools if you click on the document you are looking for in the data tracker webpage. > You will see diff tool in the history tab, idnits tool is in the middle of status tab for each document https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-xxxx__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!VNk2tqKTjrbakF3-589GE45_aEUx9OzlswVKbh67aX11SqSGRWSENMkZlSVTREoc$ > Spell tool unfortunately I haven't seen it integrated into datatracker tool. It would be great to get access to these tools in a single place. > > However, "IETF Tools" simply points to "tools.ietf.org", and "Draft Submission" link in "tools.ietf.org" is the same as "Draft Submission" under the "Documents" tab (all point to https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!VNk2tqKTjrbakF3-589GE45_aEUx9OzlswVKbh67aX11SqSGRWSENMkZlY7O9bC9$ ). > > So I am still a bit lost - appreciate if someone could share a link to the announcement that I missed. > > Thanks. > Jeffrey > > -----Original Message----- > From: Benjamin Kaduk > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 12:14 AM > To: Donald Eastlake > Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org; Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) ; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Subject: Re: slow tools reaction > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > I assume that everyone is referring to sites hosted under tools.ietf.org, the old server that is slated for decommisioning. > I have seen slowness as well, but it does not really concern me much because everything I regularly use is actually on the datatracker, and the slowness only comes about because links (e.g., from google) have not updated to point to datatracker directly instead of tools. > > Also, tools-discuss is probably a better list at which to discuss any issues. > > -Ben > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 10:13:55PM -0400, Donald Eastlake wrote: > > Me too... > > > > Thanks, > > Donald > > =============================== > > Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) > > 2386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com > > > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 8:42 PM Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) > > wrote: > > > > > > Yes , it’s been slow for me too . > > > > > > Mankamana > > > ________________________________ > > > From: WGChairs on behalf of Jeffrey > > > (Zhaohui) Zhang > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 5:33:32 PM > > > To: wgchairs@ietf.org > > > Subject: slow tools reaction > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Is it just me or have you also noticed that IETF tools have been quite slow recently? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > Jeffrey > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > Juniper Business Use Only From nobody Sat Sep 18 22:32:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EED953A1C38 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 22:31:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Sun, 19 Sep 2021 05:31:21 +0000 Received: by kubenode530.mail-prod1.omega.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 334a82df81db581aabb98ce2c8895127; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 05:31:16 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Lloyd W Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:31:12 +1000 Message-Id: <31A31E52-1C03-42D3-9ADA-1CC2FD2D11FB@yahoo.co.uk> References: Cc: Carsten Bormann , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss In-Reply-To: To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 05:31:30 -0000 > On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do collab= orative editing? See RFC8874. Lloyd Wood lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk wondering what the IETF mandated editor is.= From nobody Sun Sep 19 02:17:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 198623A239D; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 02:17:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LKC3vPdNAtMQ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 02:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com (mail-ed1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A4653A239A; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 02:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id q3so48357076edt.5; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 02:17:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8zAUndBmdOkG59HQY3P6DkJ9Lk5LGCAatJo00TcbBcI=; b=VnQLtAG98dMgVXfJG9SAQAdL2om9LGHtk+zqiTPuJsFtJnFBoMDXrxglWd/7K1BYZn 3Q/Z4qipQYg1DtUst535a8DkixYv//oXuNqoLz+lOloukYLstotZVUD038RZOFNogrgd 8KBxSpcnfpfNAsmNjSsmQ8mcqAqFL41Stin6WyfXcZF0EGVDi3SpVXbm3DbxNBAaWtuy Q75BHmqsP4vl0GT1AhRgggRlJQxLCIlIjA3qnaDvyDgNnZyQtYZKOjLNfssGiWG4u9nY cexirk2PYKGDKEKN9OO8NmfqE+1itsmYxRLsMaBP74CYhqgYX3MAbcUZ8zw46csg/cIi sXbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8zAUndBmdOkG59HQY3P6DkJ9Lk5LGCAatJo00TcbBcI=; b=UocXPmmxYvcqB0kdcgDwHaOpDaEt4iKx6vgZAV4pBYps01h1FWpfgOSSOAwii7gV4b Y1sJuRHAl0C5hywLYStpfe9KZM002BCx7cCqyuO3l5N2z9ovXi+QZg65ZH7vCt79QVK4 MAay1XjlaaNMmRlBcv/y8pF2VgUZJCGrs6qzWQosFUb9FUA2SjiMerb43s9P5h6CX0v5 fpFsn+mebp2KgI66jNLlNP9X0xwRlhokzw5cElm39dk5Z1W9I5qrxccwINwNyAdxcoxO yWQl5XPaj7LL2Lv+O2PxoMKyttL4pNgA6Y7UxNgiZEwzw6sAK8m1zgV7l5L/oSciMvIZ aDYA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531HvJ7jZdBlGgka6A6d+3wRWqOQ6/boMseaTOmNUVlR8+6WnmZz E15dcsT0QQVaL6iGrHfu7kHLafEcbX6DTM8TQpQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw7bB8JSmICO4s2BrjUlMzM1KwVYQ0WGIkj9GqOFrCZ6xtlPIVuM8RygpJamo+unuD9hn5slgtes3BeMO6VWoU= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:32d9:: with SMTP id k25mr22539164ejk.290.1632043046229; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 02:17:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <31A31E52-1C03-42D3-9ADA-1CC2FD2D11FB@yahoo.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <31A31E52-1C03-42D3-9ADA-1CC2FD2D11FB@yahoo.co.uk> From: David Noveck Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 05:17:20 -0400 Message-ID: To: Lloyd W Cc: Mark Nottingham , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000075cb305cc55a227" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 09:17:34 -0000 --000000000000075cb305cc55a227 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" RFC 8874 is an informational document discussing wg policies for using GitHub. It does not say GitHub "is supposed to be" used for collaborative editing, let alone "IS SUPPOSED TO BE". There is no suggestion that it is the only way to do that. Actually, the process described there is, while more collaborative than previous approaches, not fully collaborative in that there is an editor who is assumed to be the editor of the corresponding working group document. On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 1:31 AM Lloyd W wrote: > > > On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > > > the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference > > I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do > collaborative editing? See RFC8874. > > Lloyd Wood > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > > wondering what the IETF mandated editor is. > --000000000000075cb305cc55a227 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
RFC 8874 is an informational document discussing wg polic= ies for using GitHub.=C2=A0 It does not say GitHub "is supposed to be&= quot; used for collaborative editing, let alone "IS SUPPOSED TO BE&quo= t;. There is no suggestion that it is the only way to do that.

Actually, the process described there is, = while more collaborative than previous approaches, not fully collaborative = in that there is an editor who is assumed to be the editor of the correspon= ding working group document.

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 1:31 AM Lloyd W <= ;lloyd.wood=3D40yahoo.co.uk= @dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:<= br> >
> the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term refere= nce

I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do colla= borative editing? See RFC8874.

Lloyd Wood
lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk

wondering what the IETF mandated editor is.
--000000000000075cb305cc55a227-- From nobody Sun Sep 19 08:04:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D2833A2EC1; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 08:04:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OqBT3H7LxYnD; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 08:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 331E13A2EB9; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 08:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host-188-15-16-83.business.telecomitalia.it [188.15.16.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HC9v02gw1z2xG9; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 17:03:56 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-24B8A66F-3652-4AC7-BEA2-1783EB44A76C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <31A31E52-1C03-42D3-9ADA-1CC2FD2D11FB@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 17:03:55 +0200 Cc: Mark Nottingham , Working Chairs , IETF discussion list , tools-discuss Message-Id: References: <31A31E52-1C03-42D3-9ADA-1CC2FD2D11FB@yahoo.co.uk> To: Lloyd W X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:04:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail-24B8A66F-3652-4AC7-BEA2-1783EB44A76C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combination with a website like g= itlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discussion in the IETF was about.)= =20 Asynchronous means not everyone had to be present at the same time.=20 Synchronous collaboration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. Traces= of Google docs and such.=20 Synchronous means the focus is on groups that meet and edit at the same time= , but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabused=E2=80=9D for asynchronous co= llaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous and asynchronous phases may a= lternate, a good git interface would be a highly desirable element of a tool= for synchronous collaboration.=20 The more successful of either of these employ markdown as a storage/intercha= nge format for textual information (text is code).=20 Oh, I=E2=80=99m talking about how my more successful students work, but the p= attern may be transferable to work in the IETF (and has been). Sent from mobile, sorry for terse > On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >> On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >> the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference= >=20 > I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do coll= aborative editing? See RFC8874. >=20 > Lloyd Wood > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >=20 > wondering what the IETF mandated editor is. --Apple-Mail-24B8A66F-3652-4AC7-BEA2-1783EB44A76C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in= combination with a website like gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub d= iscussion in the IETF was about.) 
Asynchronous means not everyone h= ad to be present at the same time. 

Synchronous c= ollaboration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. Traces of Google do= cs and such. 
Synchronous means the focus is on groups that m= eet and edit at the same time, but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabused= =E2=80=9D for asynchronous collaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous= and asynchronous phases may alternate, a good git interface would be a high= ly desirable element of a tool for synchronous collaboration. 

The more successful of either of these employ markdown as a= storage/interchange format for textual information (text is code). 

Oh, I=E2=80=99m talking about how my more successful s= tudents work, but the pattern may be transferable to work in the IETF (and h= as been).

Sent from mobile, sorry for terse

On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk&g= t; wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
On 16 Sep 2021,= at 18:32, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term= reference

I thought github wa= s the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do collaborative editing? Se= e RFC8874.

Lloyd Wood
lloyd= .wood@yahoo.co.uk

wondering what the IETF m= andated editor is.
= --Apple-Mail-24B8A66F-3652-4AC7-BEA2-1783EB44A76C-- From nobody Sun Sep 19 14:20:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E2B3A3F55 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:20:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h_imTd4IRl5l for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1C343A3F53 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id r75so1827204iod.7 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:20:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2XFixRcvM3rI4f852tSYxfoIsoQjlpJTZ+WzS9APkgo=; b=X7ZWtwkbXgF2ak5etsMvQDvy5bUMJ3gf3Et08PJ6fwuX8IGdS3tRiDeeZj6tgQO38C qWzH9mS5l+ScVKFx31xwmk/EEapI0vlmZq+oCi+xQEuh/FaIkLlOIa3eLBkubmIYeJUA lRkzie801112+qiQjkXAgUYbSCrbNk73Hnj4Ntu/V21V+KAh9VDDpk9BwpT9rB21UsQz xk3ZMcyQPYGjl25d1dfc2PmkJuVha6z7fmGufILPPjDR7aiqVY4WEN9h47knOJauCVVM +vgFIeP2sMUIkDGr/nloZsganuYQ8ZCuzbUekn94k9i7gMxt4zvd5mZTKlMgYyFDjZjw ZG4Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2XFixRcvM3rI4f852tSYxfoIsoQjlpJTZ+WzS9APkgo=; b=C4OuwAETqloeNw/St38X235+UPSURlzBKRSjjXwz5fHz3NcOrEpkO3SruqQm3O6ZY6 o+2nLjFSXM9KUduk/8/U6YpZ30npf+7INOHZUn35TuQ88nKps1lzhLZ4Vi4SQ1rpHha2 9Absb+ZElHwHUd5gQ4gm4HnMsbXEhHr3zCn+7sJb3eQBXGqhy15bHamIbC+2y/uvaKD8 iEk+MkD9I4OqcJPn8LLGJeu0lKa3U6dBj1LYchdJFxrehYplP4xCudzv8tHhB4jCJFoD fDbgTE9c4oGd46wuBAZpYT/tXz+BeefpsdWy5YTXnAhcgGdf1MmYxGza+lGhVhJqlIRX /1lg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532TTXrQPG/4O00+Q6BfcACBu02+MXPbewMGlsZREMxN2pafRoxj fiJ+Fk7OpwNeKGMbYKn2jKFReMSMMEE07RReN2G/Zcr34LgZ7A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxNvv28XT29tCwq01AMQs2J/7DT3gbq1Kvdssgt3UrYGJpMLIWUA949FA6Dtg8S0Igz1KkeBNnlihHgfr5Xryk= X-Received: by 2002:a02:11c1:: with SMTP id 184mr16967878jaf.70.1632086424782; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 14:20:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <31A31E52-1C03-42D3-9ADA-1CC2FD2D11FB@yahoo.co.uk> In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 17:20:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000978ca205cc5fbbe5" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Markdown (was: Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 21:20:31 -0000 --000000000000978ca205cc5fbbe5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carsten, I've changed the subject line and cut down the discussion just to tools-discuss to talk about markdown. I know that you're a huge proponent of markdown, and I've for one made good use of that via Kramdown (thanks again for creating and supporting it). However, I do have an issue with markdown, and that's how ill-defined it is, with what seems like a million variants (it's kinda like COVID - everytime you look around there's a new variant on the loose). You've done a pretty good job defining the Kramdown variant, which is one of the reasons it's so useful. But, for example, we all use other software tools that support other variants. And it's not easy keeping them straight in your head (at least not for me). So if markdown is going to be of any use for the IETF, I think we need to well-define the "IETF variant". And that may be different from Kramdown, since they have two different uses - one for general documents, like minutes, and the other for drafts and RFCs. For example, we may decide to use the Markdown variant supported by HedgeDoc (see https://pad.gwdg.de/features?both for the definition and examples), seeing as we're already using HedgeDoc. Or we might choose something else. But I think we do need to decide, if markdown is going to be of any use. Thoughts? Cheers, Andy On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:04 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combination with a website > like gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discussion in the IETF wa= s > about.) > Asynchronous means not everyone had to be present at the same time. > > Synchronous collaboration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. > Traces of Google docs and such. > Synchronous means the focus is on groups that meet and edit at the same > time, but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabused=E2=80=9D for asynchro= nous > collaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous and asynchronous phases > may alternate, a good git interface would be a highly desirable element o= f > a tool for synchronous collaboration. > > The more successful of either of these employ markdown as a > storage/interchange format for textual information (text is code). > > Oh, I=E2=80=99m talking about how my more successful students work, but t= he > pattern may be transferable to work in the IETF (and has been). > > Sent from mobile, sorry for terse > > On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > > On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > > the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference > > > I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do > collaborative editing? See RFC8874. > > Lloyd Wood > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > > wondering what the IETF mandated editor is. > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000978ca205cc5fbbe5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Carsten,

I've chan= ged=C2=A0the subject line and cut down the discussion just to tools-discuss= to talk about markdown.

I know that you're a = huge proponent of markdown, and I've for one made good use of that via = Kramdown (thanks again for creating and supporting it).

However, I do have an issue with markdown, and that's how ill-def= ined it is, with what seems like a million variants (it's kinda like CO= VID - everytime you look around there's a new variant on the loose).

You've done a pretty good job defining the Kramd= own variant, which is one of the reasons it's so useful.

=
But, for example, we all=C2=A0use other software=C2=A0tools that= support other variants. And it's not easy keeping them straight in you= r head (at least not for me).

So if markdown is go= ing to be of any use for the IETF, I think we need to well-define the "= ;IETF variant". And that may be different=C2=A0from Kramdown, since t= hey have=C2=A0two different=C2=A0uses - one for general documents, like min= utes, and the other for drafts and RFCs.

For examp= le, we may decide to use the Markdown variant supported by HedgeDoc (see=C2= =A0https://pad.gwdg.de/featur= es?both for the definition and examples), seeing as we're already u= sing HedgeDoc. Or we might choose something else. But I think we do need to= decide, if markdown is going to be of any use.

Th= oughts?

Cheers,
Andy

On Sun, Sep 19= , 2021 at 11:04 AM Carsten Bormann <cabo= @tzi.org> wrote:
Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combi= nation with a website like gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discu= ssion in the IETF was about.)=C2=A0
Asynchronous means not everyone had= to be present at the same time.=C2=A0

Synchronous c= ollaboration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. Traces of Google d= ocs and such.=C2=A0
Synchronous means the focus is on groups that= meet and edit at the same time, but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabu= sed=E2=80=9D for asynchronous collaboration. Since sessions end and synchro= nous and asynchronous phases may alternate, a good git interface would be a= highly desirable element of a tool for synchronous collaboration.=C2=A0

The more successful of either of these employ markdo= wn as a storage/interchange format for textual information (text is code).= =C2=A0

Oh, I=E2=80=99m talking about how my more s= uccessful students work, but the pattern may be transferable to work in the= IETF (and has been).

Sent from=C2=A0mobile, sorry for terse

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk= > wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
On 16 Sep 2= 021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference=

I thought github was the too= l that the IETF was supposed to use to do collaborative editing? See RFC887= 4.

Lloyd Wood
lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk<= /span>

wondering what the IETF mandated editor is= .
__________________________= _________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--000000000000978ca205cc5fbbe5-- From nobody Sun Sep 19 15:08:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38C93A0964 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:08:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_FAIL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S1qj8EKJ62N8 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:45:216:3eff:fe7f:7abd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC5FA3A0965 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd] (unknown [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19869AE269; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 00:08:38 +0200 (CEST) To: "Andrew G. Malis" , Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss References: <31A31E52-1C03-42D3-9ADA-1CC2FD2D11FB@yahoo.co.uk> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Message-ID: Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:08:36 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Markdown (was: Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 22:08:50 -0000 On 9/19/21 2:20 PM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Carsten, > > I've changed the subject line and cut down the discussion just to > tools-discuss to talk about markdown. > > I know that you're a huge proponent of markdown, and I've for one made good > use of that via Kramdown (thanks again for creating and supporting it). > > However, I do have an issue with markdown, and that's how ill-defined it > is, with what seems like a million variants (it's kinda like COVID - > everytime you look around there's a new variant on the loose). > > You've done a pretty good job defining the Kramdown variant, which is one > of the reasons it's so useful. > > But, for example, we all use other software tools that support other > variants. And it's not easy keeping them straight in your head (at least > not for me). > > So if markdown is going to be of any use for the IETF, I think we need to > well-define the "IETF variant". And that may be different from Kramdown, > since they have two different uses - one for general documents, like > minutes, and the other for drafts and RFCs. Or forget Markdown and use AsciiDoc, which was properly designed as a represention of DocBook, and so does not have a million variants. https://docs.asciidoctor.org/home/ https://www.metanorma.org/author/ietf/topics/markup/ > > For example, we may decide to use the Markdown variant supported by > HedgeDoc (see https://pad.gwdg.de/features?both for the definition and > examples), seeing as we're already using HedgeDoc. Or we might choose > something else. But I think we do need to decide, if markdown is going to > be of any use. > > Thoughts? > > Cheers, > Andy > > On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:04 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combination with a website >> like gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discussion in the IETF was >> about.) >> Asynchronous means not everyone had to be present at the same time. >> >> Synchronous collaboration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. >> Traces of Google docs and such. >> Synchronous means the focus is on groups that meet and edit at the same >> time, but of course hedgedoc can be “abused” for asynchronous >> collaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous and asynchronous phases >> may alternate, a good git interface would be a highly desirable element of >> a tool for synchronous collaboration. >> >> The more successful of either of these employ markdown as a >> storage/interchange format for textual information (text is code). >> >> Oh, I’m talking about how my more successful students work, but the >> pattern may be transferable to work in the IETF (and has been). >> >> Sent from mobile, sorry for terse >> >> On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W wrote: >> >>  >> >> On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> >> the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference >> >> >> I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do >> collaborative editing? See RFC8874. >> >> Lloyd Wood >> lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >> >> wondering what the IETF mandated editor is. >> -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug From nobody Sun Sep 19 18:32:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D09B03A09D4 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 18:32:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=NS8HtZ86; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=X4C6ylK0 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lr9dKvOZ05cM for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 18:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 334723A09D5 for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 18:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AC095C010E; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 21:32:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 19 Sep 2021 21:32:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=aWEaN+ieTLqI/lHXylVQWRoS8QjQkUi mbW6bDp9qbvQ=; b=NS8HtZ86XZ7+OeFAobxvun3Cra1y96/utKzuYqukWpoCX2m tKcPNcFtegx2rkqjFxPnc2q3Zfe6hnBsuU3TC8tfDHFHdYBoUT9UAyBqAG5tZCvL jx2PyTWmxMdl8kdzlZOl2QV2DE0YAcEbBNH6O/J8LwDvcBx4uOA7D0bGKJEWYEQY AmfG4PCtvVuTZ+bxOkKLeCr/YW/IxPY5tCpcwLKwVlk3eAaX78hF5rHjRBFU20qm 32B9Uy+5IBtgSVudq1Vy9z6eQB2vvtWfNtkTQeIe8o7l782Lg0OERsQVbtZfinqE /gVAsHqCTiNpk7ofvXubG3Gkufbl5rWK59e7H3Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=aWEaN+ ieTLqI/lHXylVQWRoS8QjQkUimbW6bDp9qbvQ=; b=X4C6ylK0Zi0aSO6X8ivPSt zUCD9qSIzmP2umOkHpb+SY9sqtrlUWqBZzflTjqpErtld9sxwl9nFkSbr4yZmpv6 VapiRZME/Jjsv7X/z4FUtR6MOyv3WwQbVqlMIelV+y5mypqYcLvp4J4skiz0OKbL bVxq53drrCV/Y7Cd4JvaglJnwHu4C1IVWM/d3Y+eT24XuLtYMmxvIa8HsGr6p5yn aynxsQU+Bf/SMPN5H9Px2czPQjhlCU9yNA/gwK89DgtmQ2I9KAOKZY4TNKNSn3j2 DieLKcR7jKyDig0sR6/hTY3q/82vyevpD9wPSTqV15kw+21hecJW32SwmVYEzmpg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudeiuddggeejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne goufhushhpvggtthffohhmrghinhculdegledmnecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffu tgesthdtredtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomh htsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepuedtudevkeff iefhveetjeevudduteefkefhuedtvdfhgfdtheeiteefheffgeeunecuffhomhgrihhnpe hivghtfhdrohhrghdpghhithhhuhgsrdhiohenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecu rfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id C29E73C05C6; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 21:32:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1291-gc66fc0a3a2-fm-20210913.001-gc66fc0a3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <1e8f8983-23c4-4f96-92d3-8a2f08ec27d9@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <457dc09f-e14d-139a-10b9-ddd6a4f1e3b1@nostrum.com> References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> <457dc09f-e14d-139a-10b9-ddd6a4f1e3b1@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 11:32:00 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Robert Sparks" , tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Unversioned draft links (was Re: slow tools reaction) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 01:32:27 -0000 Thanks Robert, (Changing the subject as we are now way off the original subject.) Is there a resource that refers to the latest text rendering of a draft regardless of version? The only unversioned links I'm aware of point to the latest HTMLized version of a draft and its metadata page. I'm in the process of converting the links I generate to use this version of rfcdiff and some of the links I used to provide I find are now broken. For example, this is a link that used to be useful. Note the absence of a -06 in url1: https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-httpbis-message-signatures.txt&url2=https://httpwg.github.io/http-extensions/draft-ietf-httpbis-message-signatures.txt I can now fix the first part of that, but url1 remains a problem. (Maybe the fact that no one has complained about these links being broken is a sign that maybe there isn't enough use of this feature to continue supporting it, but I thought that I would at least try.) On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, at 12:44, Robert Sparks wrote: > Ah - I see at least one place where it leaks (in the instructions at the > bottom of the default form - I will be sure that is addressed. Thanks > for calling attention to it - if you see it anywhere else, please let me > know. From nobody Sun Sep 19 23:02:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C86BB3A0F0A for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 23:02:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GveYqg5c22dM for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 23:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 226B93A0EFC for ; Sun, 19 Sep 2021 23:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (host-188-15-16-83.business.telecomitalia.it [188.15.16.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HCYqk2hnyz2xGZ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:02:26 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-0834E7E4-F9C8-4B19-82E0-7982F9C6940A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:02:24 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss Message-Id: References: To: "Andrew G. Malis" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Markdown (was: Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 06:02:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail-0834E7E4-F9C8-4B19-82E0-7982F9C6940A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have limited typing this week, but a quick reaction: I know that the situ= ation with markdown is not ideal, but it=E2=80=99s what the industry converg= ed on. In practice, the damage is less than one would think.=20 Hedgedoc is a special case, as it uses hard newlines, while industry includi= ng GitHub have moved to soft newlines. But for note taking, this is actually= what you want. I have put the tool de-gfm into kramdown-rfc to automate th= e conversion. Some hedgedoc integration for something like this might help.=20= I have used asciidoc extensively in the early 2000s and like it a lot. But i= t is not something we can reasonably converge to=E2=80=A6 neither is rst or a= ny of the other island favorites. Markdown it is, if we want to collaborate w= ith this.=20 So we=E2=80=99ll need to learn to cope with its shortcomings. And write tool= s for that.=20 Sent from mobile, sorry for terse > On 19. Sep 2021, at 23:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Carsten, >=20 > I've changed the subject line and cut down the discussion just to tools-di= scuss to talk about markdown. >=20 > I know that you're a huge proponent of markdown, and I've for one made goo= d use of that via Kramdown (thanks again for creating and supporting it). >=20 > However, I do have an issue with markdown, and that's how ill-defined it i= s, with what seems like a million variants (it's kinda like COVID - everytim= e you look around there's a new variant on the loose). >=20 > You've done a pretty good job defining the Kramdown variant, which is one o= f the reasons it's so useful. >=20 > But, for example, we all use other software tools that support other varia= nts. And it's not easy keeping them straight in your head (at least not for m= e). >=20 > So if markdown is going to be of any use for the IETF, I think we need to w= ell-define the "IETF variant". And that may be different from Kramdown, sinc= e they have two different uses - one for general documents, like minutes, an= d the other for drafts and RFCs. >=20 > For example, we may decide to use the Markdown variant supported by HedgeD= oc (see https://pad.gwdg.de/features?both for the definition and examples), s= eeing as we're already using HedgeDoc. Or we might choose something else. Bu= t I think we do need to decide, if markdown is going to be of any use. >=20 > Thoughts? >=20 > Cheers, > Andy >=20 >> On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:04 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combination with a website li= ke gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discussion in the IETF was abo= ut.)=20 >> Asynchronous means not everyone had to be present at the same time.=20 >>=20 >> Synchronous collaboration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. Tra= ces of Google docs and such.=20 >> Synchronous means the focus is on groups that meet and edit at the same t= ime, but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabused=E2=80=9D for asynchronous= collaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous and asynchronous phases m= ay alternate, a good git interface would be a highly desirable element of a t= ool for synchronous collaboration.=20 >>=20 >> The more successful of either of these employ markdown as a storage/inter= change format for textual information (text is code).=20 >>=20 >> Oh, I=E2=80=99m talking about how my more successful students work, but t= he pattern may be transferable to work in the IETF (and has been). >>=20 >> Sent from mobile, sorry for terse >>=20 >>>> On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W wrote: >>>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>>> On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term referen= ce >>>=20 >>> I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do co= llaborative editing? See RFC8874. >>>=20 >>> Lloyd Wood >>> lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >>>=20 >>> wondering what the IETF mandated editor is. >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li= stinfo/tools-discuss --Apple-Mail-0834E7E4-F9C8-4B19-82E0-7982F9C6940A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have limited typing this week,  but a= quick reaction: I know that the situation with markdown is not ideal, but i= t=E2=80=99s what the industry converged on.  In practice, the damage is= less than one would think. 

Hedgedoc is a special c= ase, as it uses hard newlines, while industry including GitHub have moved to= soft newlines. But for note taking, this is actually what you want.  I= have put the tool de-gfm into kramdown-rfc to automate the conversion. Some= hedgedoc integration for something like this might help. 
I have used asciidoc extensively in the early 2000s and like it= a lot. But it is not something we can reasonably converge to=E2=80=A6 neith= er is rst or any of the other island favorites. Markdown it is, if we want t= o collaborate with this. 

So we=E2=80=99ll nee= d to learn to cope with its shortcomings. And write tools for that. 
Sent from mobile= , sorry for terse

On 19. Sep 2021, at 23:20, Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com> wrote:=

=EF=BB= =BF
Carsten,

I've change= d the subject line and cut down the discussion just to tools-discuss to= talk about markdown.

I know that you're a huge pro= ponent of markdown, and I've for one made good use of that via Kramdown (tha= nks again for creating and supporting it).

However,= I do have an issue with markdown, and that's how ill-defined it is, with wh= at seems like a million variants (it's kinda like COVID - everytime you look= around there's a new variant on the loose).

You've= done a pretty good job defining the Kramdown variant, which is one of the r= easons it's so useful.

But, for example, we all&nbs= p;use other software tools that support other variants. And it's not ea= sy keeping them straight in your head (at least not for me).

<= /div>
So if markdown is going to be of any use for the IETF, I think we n= eed to well-define the "IETF variant". And that may be different from K= ramdown, since they have two different uses - one for general docu= ments, like minutes, and the other for drafts and RFCs.

=
For example, we may decide to use the Markdown variant supported by Hed= geDoc (see https://pad.gw= dg.de/features?both for the definition and examples), seeing as we're al= ready using HedgeDoc. Or we might choose something else. But I think we do n= eed to decide, if markdown is going to be of any use.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Andy

=
On Sun, Sep= 19, 2021 at 11:04 AM Carsten Bormann <ca= bo@tzi.org> wrote:
Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combina= tion with a website like gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discussi= on in the IETF was about.) 
Asynchronous means not everyone had to b= e present at the same time. 

Synchronous collabo= ration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. Traces of Google docs and= such. 
Synchronous means the focus is on groups that meet an= d edit at the same time, but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabused=E2=80= =9D for asynchronous collaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous and a= synchronous phases may alternate, a good git interface would be a highly des= irable element of a tool for synchronous collaboration. 

=
The more successful of either of these employ markdown as a stora= ge/interchange format for textual information (text is code). 

Oh, I=E2=80=99m talking about how my more successful studen= ts work, but the pattern may be transferable to work in the IETF (and has be= en).

Sent from m= obile, sorry for terse

On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF<= /span>
On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Not= tingham <mnot@mnot.net= > wrote:

the purpose of the tool i= s collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference

I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed t= o use to do collaborative editing? See RFC8874.

<= span>Lloyd Wood
lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk

= wondering what the IETF mandated editor is.
___________________________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://w= ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
= --Apple-Mail-0834E7E4-F9C8-4B19-82E0-7982F9C6940A-- From nobody Mon Sep 20 08:21:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D38603A142E for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:21:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4VM4OGO9giHp for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2830C3A142A for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18KFLZVC066528 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Sep 2021 10:21:36 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1632151297; bh=k0TfNoul81US8JobFswVtIvoaDRtZF+TeGyuRDkC9ic=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=W9lvtMyBrEu5Aa8J3cU/tgFQ7DzHed6ijGF47D/ZMH27/PF7KvskxcfZ7GwOBMC08 d8eZIpi1m2zY5JVpQ1YUfBrmgp35foj5KixmHoU4FdsFJ3WsrneBP58Lglm/dM83bo HPpr6tdv38WL4SbKPwDeGJWv3QzKGaDCWCYzv7Qg= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Martin Thomson , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> <457dc09f-e14d-139a-10b9-ddd6a4f1e3b1@nostrum.com> <1e8f8983-23c4-4f96-92d3-8a2f08ec27d9@www.fastmail.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <7331dce1-22a5-1206-e87e-08d0dcc89d35@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 10:21:30 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1e8f8983-23c4-4f96-92d3-8a2f08ec27d9@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unversioned draft links (was Re: slow tools reaction) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 15:21:44 -0000 On 9/19/21 8:32 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > Thanks Robert, > > (Changing the subject as we are now way off the original subject.) > > Is there a resource that refers to the latest text rendering of a draft= regardless of version? No, there is not a good single resource for this, but I am in the=20 process of making one. See the thread at=20 You are, I think, stating a preference for {versionlessname}.{extension} = (and inferring format from extension) in whatever URL plan we end up=20 with in the long run vs {versionlessname}/{format}? Similarly, {versionlessname}-{version}.{extension} vs=20 {versionlessname}/{version}/{format} As a brief diversion, while thinking about this, consider the foot-wound = we carry around that is heuristic extraction of version given a string=20 that looks like aaaaaa-nn.txt. Things like this=20 =20 make for code that has to guess at what a request for=20 "draft-ietf-16-ng-ip-over-ethernet-over-802-dot-16.txt" means. We=20 heuristically solve this by looking for -802-dot version 16 first and if = we don't find it, we look for -802-dot-16 version latest. There's a=20 chance for harmful masking of a name here - fortunately we haven't seen=20 it exercised in practice. And then consider what horror we inflicted on ourselves with names like=20 review-ietf-taps-interface-13-artart-early-sparks-2021-09-17-00 and=20 charter-ietf-quic-02-06. RjS > =20 > > The only unversioned links I'm aware of point to the latest HTMLized ve= rsion of a draft and its metadata page. I'm in the process of converting= the links I generate to use this version of rfcdiff and some of the link= s I used to provide I find are now broken. > > For example, this is a link that used to be useful. Note the absence o= f a -06 in url1: > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-i= etf-httpbis-message-signatures.txt&url2=3Dhttps://httpwg.github.io/http-e= xtensions/draft-ietf-httpbis-message-signatures.txt > > I can now fix the first part of that, but url1 remains a problem. > > (Maybe the fact that no one has complained about these links being brok= en is a sign that maybe there isn't enough use of this feature to continu= e supporting it, but I thought that I would at least try.) > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, at 12:44, Robert Sparks wrote: >> Ah - I see at least one place where it leaks (in the instructions at t= he >> bottom of the default form - I will be sure that is addressed. Thanks >> for calling attention to it - if you see it anywhere else, please let = me >> know. From nobody Mon Sep 20 16:03:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 115883A1410 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 16:03:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=Hfi/aWI1; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=qRmrpz/T Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6IRuqRnB230e for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 16:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E2D53A140E for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 16:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE925C00FB; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:03:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=Bw1ex4HBseCLKB/4c5wYsdSJjgw+zqo 53JoZ3J7pDNc=; b=Hfi/aWI1xgRYJa6uKWvP2SddrgoPwtFlh0dbXVtMfxIUkwu bOcV4hrvJ43dMzB2Cmwt75VvYozAntpqI1S/d5gjFyWRVB4Z8U/lBGUenJOIt/kU K8o1M6jXh1oOLdtmo+g8Lq8qug8mb6huS2p5R8+6GUjL6z4YtE1RNoWqto1n35ya 7tttOEVivt8reZyXytnxpwpUuPa4eq7LGjpiTJUc7GSAlPLzfFqqRZXIII8mXa5t l/L7WF5GursWqyLjbwepC+bA3SnYbzhKJwU2JKd/BFVCO30EHOuObA1JsH0eSPSp RhC05FXDsB54edFYB0Q470nRRxJcOQkvVgn5nBA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=Bw1ex4 HBseCLKB/4c5wYsdSJjgw+zqo53JoZ3J7pDNc=; b=qRmrpz/Ta9jCZrNKAlqZFE BlXbGH/EVwXGjynN03xV4yS/Jco4P8XetonMmvz9SiWkeHsX5WqS5WQbyFusinwm yghv7ZpbXfL0nHTbhUlc61mBbR0rhfQ7bE4qHEyZyDbqntZDDmHzfCtYTooTlgCw aP7vFchD78tyr52v27hAunrJEPVoE7q3oi1Hcb4HoxMFF9QaahtH0Gonb6j4Xufd k0YFHMzJe2js0x6KctCGusSlWigfVF7qHdXMa56Q7oW3N6E3kVZtnltlob/z7g2Z RSEDsu59CoBDi+NwED1KfMh9WsceWKgCT8Okq4LnskyW5+rr1xXdb06IeYQHbXrA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudeifedgudejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtredtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdforghr thhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecugg ftrfgrthhtvghrnhepleefudfgleegiefgueevledujeejuedtleegvdetheeuvefhvdeh gfegueffiedvnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiii gvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhn vght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 946BE3C0F80; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 19:03:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1291-gc66fc0a3a2-fm-20210913.001-gc66fc0a3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <1496c035-da7f-4706-ba8b-c7a120c118b8@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7331dce1-22a5-1206-e87e-08d0dcc89d35@nostrum.com> References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> <457dc09f-e14d-139a-10b9-ddd6a4f1e3b1@nostrum.com> <1e8f8983-23c4-4f96-92d3-8a2f08ec27d9@www.fastmail.com> <7331dce1-22a5-1206-e87e-08d0dcc89d35@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:03:00 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "Robert Sparks" , tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Unversioned_draft_links_=28was_Re=3A__?= =?utf-8?q?slow_tools_reaction=29?= X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 23:03:33 -0000 On Tue, Sep 21, 2021, at 01:21, Robert Sparks wrote: > You are, I think, stating a preference for {versionlessname}.{extension} > (and inferring format from extension) in whatever URL plan we end up > with in the long run vs {versionlessname}/{format}? I don't have any firm opinions about the structure of the URL. However you decide to encode things, it will work out. (You could also use content negotiation, but that means telling rfcdiff to set Accept headers in a particular way.) > As a brief diversion, while thinking about this, consider the foot-wound > we carry around that is heuristic extraction of version given a string > that looks like aaaaaa-nn.txt. Yeah, that is a problem. I think that you might solve this one of a few ways: 1. Do a deterministic search, either specific first (treat the -nn as a version number to start with and seek that file, if that turns up nothing, then look for aaaaaa-nn-xx.txt) or the other way around. There should only ever be two for documents. 2. Make separate URLs for versioned and unversioned content: doc.ietf.org/latest/name/txt (or whatever) vs doc.ietf.org/draft/name-nn/txt (or whatever). 3. Make separate URLs for specific first and specific second searches. (Add the search order as a URI parameter.) There are so many ways to cut this. I think that it's best to give you freedom to decide as I have no firm requirements that might help narrow things down. I could offer opinions, but those are probably not helpful as they might differ from others'. > And then consider what horror we inflicted on ourselves with names like > review-ietf-taps-interface-13-artart-early-sparks-2021-09-17-00 and > charter-ietf-quic-02-06. Yes, that is bad. 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On 21.09.21 01:03, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Tue, Sep 21, 2021, at 01:21, Robert Sparks wrote: >> You are, I think, stating a preference for {versionlessname}.{extension} >> (and inferring format from extension) in whatever URL plan we end up >> with in the long run vs {versionlessname}/{format}? > > I don't have any firm opinions about the structure of the URL. However you decide to encode things, it will work out. > > (You could also use content negotiation, but that means telling rfcdiff to set Accept headers in a particular way.) > >> As a brief diversion, while thinking about this, consider the foot-wound >> we carry around that is heuristic extraction of version given a string >> that looks like aaaaaa-nn.txt. > > Yeah, that is a problem. I think that you might solve this one of a few ways: > > 1. Do a deterministic search, either specific first (treat the -nn as a version number to start with and seek that file, if that turns up nothing, then look for aaaaaa-nn-xx.txt) or the other way around. There should only ever be two for documents. > > 2. Make separate URLs for versioned and unversioned content: doc.ietf.org/latest/name/txt (or whatever) vs doc.ietf.org/draft/name-nn/txt (or whatever). > > 3. Make separate URLs for specific first and specific second searches. (Add the search order as a URI parameter.) > > There are so many ways to cut this. I think that it's best to give you freedom to decide as I have no firm requirements that might help narrow things down. I could offer opinions, but those are probably not helpful as they might differ from others'. > >> And then consider what horror we inflicted on ourselves with names like >> review-ietf-taps-interface-13-artart-early-sparks-2021-09-17-00 and >> charter-ietf-quic-02-06. > > Yes, that is bad. > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > From nobody Tue Sep 21 04:45:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BD513A0865 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:44:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QsjuxNXZk_nR for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C7B03A085F for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id s20so17860087ioa.4 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:44:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gm5rGfAxrUzE514BCtT4OlsSh6n1V4rUznyYnTkjybw=; b=bce6TcWcqk1IMQYRmWCwgrU8LW4eVkH4NKoHcJXHu4mYkRi1Cjw7F5CUnrisbR+6Ys sDz7xMxtI7J60GbpU6kgs3ojbl3k1BadP+5PH2Aw9EBK7Bi5Kp8ULXFYtSDsiEhvVOmM jIZDGvEFnmn5NssJUxcQS9oSRbcw7PLlCoxYBgGNJkk+sPP1MXmS5MmukBYXBn9mtzj4 nZBN4Bx90dBf8nfSgoqioj78wJEciO9756WKtANY+zyCmccRHLR5PFQTl0zww3HHiK16 ZWIAGCiJiayLTigIXbYeZJWV6h2ZPlEDLXHroIyLACk8qffB0iU/lGuzKByaSCnPP3zf bMYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gm5rGfAxrUzE514BCtT4OlsSh6n1V4rUznyYnTkjybw=; b=i/W8M5w1JtKC04t+9F4MlSfjSPgJazSmHSvY2Tni3nZGv5F1M/d/SEfnLttq3+gv2y UL2l4kMtBz9Mz9JzyIDT/ifn2WdO4TQAG4TWzqR8p23sklSda9XPD/VFoshRZQ/z5m8y DN3mOolcRgOSKm4z4b6dkj6tDpyO1KMliVSqhFGP0v7rGe1i7QG6Vi0ukqzB2nwoDSzh cZLWkgGmmaIyAsTfQm3nyUhdmL//+xp8HAaTpJh6SpPFj0QYsKrn7HUM+06n71+mrgO9 wnp8IwcH9rVhENGNMdbSOferqYIFlcYXH05HcPMOxShD+3PMOKXiJQdTQDnhvAzZsevR jNsw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532n7rpt2TZhrn+guuejw1mEeu8OCgQswpfBxo93EeIqJNV5tfto hSa8FNAcBy+GnJtZvHF0YIobkBw7Ak3FUrk5/f99avwb X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzQQpDRG5uRAIdodU/GM7AurrESgTERx+/QKHCXDuBMfJUc1fF7PZp4SjLNYxfhLb8dMPHct5PNi8zLP+eUoxQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:16d4:: with SMTP id g20mr23163553jat.22.1632224690946; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 04:44:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:44:34 -0400 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e5c72a05cc7fec67" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Markdown (was: Content at notes.ietf.org is not archival) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:44:59 -0000 --000000000000e5c72a05cc7fec67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So this issue has just come up on the wg-chairs list, where Robert has proposed moving WG charters in the Datatracker from text to Markdown rendering, and there's now a discussion of which MD variant to use. Cheers, Andy On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 2:02 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > I have limited typing this week, but a quick reaction: I know that the > situation with markdown is not ideal, but it=E2=80=99s what the industry = converged > on. In practice, the damage is less than one would think. > > Hedgedoc is a special case, as it uses hard newlines, while industry > including GitHub have moved to soft newlines. But for note taking, this i= s > actually what you want. I have put the tool de-gfm into kramdown-rfc to > automate the conversion. Some hedgedoc integration for something like thi= s > might help. > > I have used asciidoc extensively in the early 2000s and like it a lot. Bu= t > it is not something we can reasonably converge to=E2=80=A6 neither is rst= or any of > the other island favorites. Markdown it is, if we want to collaborate wit= h > this. > > So we=E2=80=99ll need to learn to cope with its shortcomings. And write t= ools for > that. > > Sent from mobile, sorry for terse > > On 19. Sep 2021, at 23:20, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > Carsten, > > I've changed the subject line and cut down the discussion just to > tools-discuss to talk about markdown. > > I know that you're a huge proponent of markdown, and I've for one made > good use of that via Kramdown (thanks again for creating and supporting i= t). > > However, I do have an issue with markdown, and that's how ill-defined it > is, with what seems like a million variants (it's kinda like COVID - > everytime you look around there's a new variant on the loose). > > You've done a pretty good job defining the Kramdown variant, which is one > of the reasons it's so useful. > > But, for example, we all use other software tools that support other > variants. And it's not easy keeping them straight in your head (at least > not for me). > > So if markdown is going to be of any use for the IETF, I think we need to > well-define the "IETF variant". And that may be different from Kramdown, > since they have two different uses - one for general documents, like > minutes, and the other for drafts and RFCs. > > For example, we may decide to use the Markdown variant supported by > HedgeDoc (see https://pad.gwdg.de/features?both for the definition and > examples), seeing as we're already using HedgeDoc. Or we might choose > something else. But I think we do need to decide, if markdown is going to > be of any use. > > Thoughts? > > Cheers, > Andy > > On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:04 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combination with a website >> like gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discussion in the IETF w= as >> about.) >> Asynchronous means not everyone had to be present at the same time. >> >> Synchronous collaboration: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. >> Traces of Google docs and such. >> Synchronous means the focus is on groups that meet and edit at the same >> time, but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabused=E2=80=9D for asynchr= onous >> collaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous and asynchronous phase= s >> may alternate, a good git interface would be a highly desirable element = of >> a tool for synchronous collaboration. >> >> The more successful of either of these employ markdown as a >> storage/interchange format for textual information (text is code). >> >> Oh, I=E2=80=99m talking about how my more successful students work, but = the >> pattern may be transferable to work in the IETF (and has been). >> >> Sent from mobile, sorry for terse >> >> On 19. Sep 2021, at 07:42, Lloyd W wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BF >> >> On 16 Sep 2021, at 18:32, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> >> the purpose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term referenc= e >> >> >> I thought github was the tool that the IETF was supposed to use to do >> collaborative editing? See RFC8874. >> >> Lloyd Wood >> lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >> >> wondering what the IETF mandated editor is. >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> > --000000000000e5c72a05cc7fec67 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So this issue has just come up on the wg-chairs list, wher= e Robert has proposed=C2=A0moving WG charters in the Datatracker from text = to Markdown rendering, and there's now a discussion of which=C2=A0MD va= riant to use.

Cheers,
Andy


On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 2:02 AM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
I have limited ty= ping this week, =C2=A0but a quick reaction: I know that the situation with = markdown is not ideal, but it=E2=80=99s what the industry converged on.=C2= =A0 In practice, the damage is less than one would think.=C2=A0

Hedgedoc is a special case, as it uses hard newlines, while industr= y including GitHub have moved to soft newlines. But for note taking, this i= s actually what you want.=C2=A0 I have put the tool de-gfm into kramdown-rf= c to automate the conversion. Some hedgedoc integration for something like = this might help.=C2=A0

I have used asciidoc extens= ively in the early 2000s and like it a lot. But it is not something we can = reasonably converge to=E2=80=A6 neither is rst or any of the other island f= avorites. Markdown it is, if we want to collaborate with this.=C2=A0
<= div>
So we=E2=80=99ll need to learn to cope with its shortcom= ings. And write tools for that.=C2=A0

Sent from=C2= =A0mobile, sorry for terse

On 19. Sep 2021, at 23:20, Andrew= G. Malis <agmali= s@gmail.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Carsten,
I've changed=C2=A0the subject line and cut down the di= scussion just to tools-discuss to talk about markdown.

=
I know that you're a huge proponent of markdown, and I've for = one made good use of that via Kramdown (thanks again for creating and suppo= rting it).

However, I do have an issue with markdo= wn, and that's how ill-defined it is, with what seems like a million va= riants (it's kinda like COVID - everytime you look around there's a= new variant on the loose).

You've done a pret= ty good job defining the Kramdown variant, which is one of the reasons it&#= 39;s so useful.

But, for example, we all=C2=A0use = other software=C2=A0tools that support other variants. And it's not eas= y keeping them straight in your head (at least not for me).

<= /div>
So if markdown is going to be of any use for the IETF, I think we= need to well-define the "IETF variant". And that may be differe= nt=C2=A0from Kramdown, since they have=C2=A0two different=C2=A0uses - one f= or general documents, like minutes, and the other for drafts and RFCs.

For example, we may decide to use the Markdown variant= supported by HedgeDoc (see=C2=A0https://pad.gwdg.de/features?both for the definit= ion and examples), seeing as we're already using HedgeDoc. Or we might = choose something else. But I think we do need to decide, if markdown is goi= ng to be of any use.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Andy

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:04 AM Carsten = Bormann <cabo@tzi.org<= /a>> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"auto">Asynchronous collaboration: git. Usually in combination wi= th a website like gitlab or GitHub. (This is what the GitHub discussion in = the IETF was about.)=C2=A0
Asynchronous means not everyone had to be pr= esent at the same time.=C2=A0

Synchronous collaborat= ion: more variety. Today often hackmd/hedgedoc. Traces of Google docs and s= uch.=C2=A0
Synchronous means the focus is on groups that meet and= edit at the same time, but of course hedgedoc can be =E2=80=9Cabused=E2=80= =9D for asynchronous collaboration. Since sessions end and synchronous and = asynchronous phases may alternate, a good git interface would be a highly d= esirable element of a tool for synchronous collaboration.=C2=A0
<= br>
=EF= =BB=BF
On 16 Sep 2021, at 1= 8:32, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

the purp= ose of the tool is collaborative editing, NOT long-term reference

I thought github was the tool that the= IETF was supposed to use to do collaborative editing? See RFC8874.<= br>
Lloyd Wood
lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
=
wondering what the IETF mandated editor is.
____________________________________= _______________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--000000000000e5c72a05cc7fec67-- From nobody Tue Sep 21 07:23:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9422D3A1866 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:23:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.281 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.281 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m4jqeQoBffA9 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94A1D3A1868 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 07:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 18LENjYL067902 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:23:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1632234229; bh=JsJnll0W44/blNYTq5BlvdtPO7tVdk4gOA4vgDsbZ8o=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=MEfOzHp2YAzOIi0ZHrIm6dTKvNAjLWJWvksDJbuTqNVn7O5gPPEEhGgBLq1KEt0wz ybIa5Jt2DecvmfDh4S4rnaiw+bef33VLsoiviCEPI9iisb/yhascW44E+vRolnW/wT Soff3qZ8e953GtWaGU7cv/h0BIjh/UhxUwI9AayY= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Henk Birkholz , Martin Thomson , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <20210916041429.GI32645@kduck.mit.edu> <457dc09f-e14d-139a-10b9-ddd6a4f1e3b1@nostrum.com> <1e8f8983-23c4-4f96-92d3-8a2f08ec27d9@www.fastmail.com> <7331dce1-22a5-1206-e87e-08d0dcc89d35@nostrum.com> <1496c035-da7f-4706-ba8b-c7a120c118b8@www.fastmail.com> <28098b38-a2b9-4755-2efa-d33943715c36@sit.fraunhofer.de> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 09:23:40 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <28098b38-a2b9-4755-2efa-d33943715c36@sit.fraunhofer.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unversioned draft links (was Re: slow tools reaction) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 14:23:57 -0000 On 9/21/21 2:28 AM, Henk Birkholz wrote: > I can access this resource: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/01/ > > and as that is the current charter it also is accessible via: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ > > So there is some kind of versioning in the DT URL already, I think? Yes, but it is a partial implementation - you can't easily ask, right=20 now, for _just_ the plain text (without the metadata), the pdf, or for=20 v3 docs the html generated by xml2rfc without the version. Being able to = ask for that first thing (just the plain text) is really needed for=20 things like rfcdiff. > > > On 21.09.21 01:03, Martin Thomson wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 21, 2021, at 01:21, Robert Sparks wrote: >>> You are, I think, stating a preference for=20 >>> {versionlessname}.{extension} >>> (and inferring format from extension) in whatever URL plan we end up >>> with in the long run vs {versionlessname}/{format}? >> >> I don't have any firm opinions about the structure of the URL.=20 >> However you decide to encode things, it will work out. >> >> (You could also use content negotiation, but that means telling=20 >> rfcdiff to set Accept headers in a particular way.) >> >>> As a brief diversion, while thinking about this, consider the=20 >>> foot-wound >>> we carry around that is heuristic extraction of version given a strin= g >>> that looks like aaaaaa-nn.txt. >> >> Yeah, that is a problem.=C2=A0 I think that you might solve this one o= f a=20 >> few ways: >> >> 1. Do a deterministic search, either specific first (treat the -nn as = >> a version number to start with and seek that file, if that turns up=20 >> nothing, then look for aaaaaa-nn-xx.txt) or the other way around.=C2=A0= =20 >> There should only ever be two for documents. >> >> 2. Make separate URLs for versioned and unversioned content:=20 >> doc.ietf.org/latest/name/txt (or whatever) vs=20 >> doc.ietf.org/draft/name-nn/txt (or whatever). >> >> 3. Make separate URLs for specific first and specific second=20 >> searches.=C2=A0 (Add the search order as a URI parameter.) >> >> There are so many ways to cut this.=C2=A0 I think that it's best to gi= ve=20 >> you freedom to decide as I have no firm requirements that might help=20 >> narrow things down.=C2=A0 I could offer opinions, but those are probab= ly=20 >> not helpful as they might differ from others'. >> >>> And then consider what horror we inflicted on ourselves with names li= ke >>> review-ietf-taps-interface-13-artart-early-sparks-2021-09-17-00 and >>> charter-ietf-quic-02-06. >> >> Yes, that is bad. >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:=20 >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe):=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> From nobody Wed Sep 22 16:17:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D84EA3A0A6C for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:16:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fZv18ycydYUj for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AB973A0A68 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3605D46EBC47 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:16:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WW4WXc2pDeeo for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CE2CB46EBC46 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:16:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Message-Id: <507A1C41-0B73-4257-A16F-A6D03732E4E9@ietf.org> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 11:16:48 +1200 To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Plans for security audits and security auditors X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:16:58 -0000 As noted at the last tools call, Robert and I have been discussing a = security review of Datatracker with a contract, which we have since = signed a contract for. As explained at the meeting, this did not go to = RFP and I wanted to explain further our plans in this area. Going forward, we are planning for an ongoing program of regular = security audits of our IT systems. We anticipate that each year we will = have a couple of larger audits, such as a full code audit of a major = tool, and multiple smaller audits, such as testing new Datatracker = functionality In 2020 we issued an RFP for a code review of the RPC code, awarded to = ZX Security, and our original plan was to issue new security RFPs as and = when required. However, we have reconsidered this in light of the = complexity of our systems and the time spent developing a working = relationship, and we intend instead to appoint ZX Security as our = standing security auditor for a three year term from the time they = started with us until the end of 2022. During this period all security = reviews will be offered first to our standing security auditor and only = go to RFP if they are unable to meet our need. Towards the end of 2022 = we will issue an RFP for a new security auditor for a three year term, = which the incumbent will not be eligible to bid for and which will work = in the same way. =20 This form of fixed term appointment and forced rotation is consistent = with good practice for financial auditors. Please let me and Robert know if you have any concerns with this = approach. Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Thu Sep 23 06:41:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B993A3066; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 06:41:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ChtmEuDaNHTu; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 06:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA8063A3060; 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Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:41:38 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Jay Daley , tools-discuss Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Plans for security audits and security auditors Thread-Index: AQHXsAf2/dCm8hI4VEWPysbdcVpaQquxoWcA Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:41:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <507A1C41-0B73-4257-A16F-A6D03732E4E9@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <507A1C41-0B73-4257-A16F-A6D03732E4E9@ietf.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.53.21091200 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-09-23_04:2021-09-23, 2021-09-23 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=732 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109200000 definitions=main-2109230085 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: nVWoGJ64KFzT9-Dz00zFV0ByKSwKd0fk X-Proofpoint-GUID: nVWoGJ64KFzT9-Dz00zFV0ByKSwKd0fk X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.391,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-09-23_04,2021-09-23_01,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=688 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109200000 definitions=main-2109230085 X-Agari-Authentication-Results: mx.akamai.com; 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Thu, 23 Sep 2021 06:48:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <507A1C41-0B73-4257-A16F-A6D03732E4E9@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: From: Tim Wicinski Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:48:10 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Jay Daley , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004796ff05cca9e213" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Plans for security audits and security auditors X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 13:48:32 -0000 --0000000000004796ff05cca9e213 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 9:41 AM Salz, Rich wrote: > > This form of fixed term appointment and forced rotation is consistent > with good practice for financial auditors. > > In my experience it is also common for security audits as well. > > Strong proponent of this practice also. tim --0000000000004796ff05cca9e213 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 9:41 AM Salz, Rich &l= t;rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dmarc= .ietf.org> wrot

Balazs - Please try using https://www.ietf.org/tools/idnits instead.