From nobody Wed Dec 1 09:46:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69813A07AB for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 09:46:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZEjkSNxPB0It for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 09:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 322043A0787 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 09:46:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1B1Hk8Yi016469 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 11:46:09 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638380770; bh=kJkiPQQQ4uoO16eTh6SmqXhSKM2K+adgGoVbN7axQEM=; h=Date:Subject:From:To:References:In-Reply-To; b=AAX6rbA+uslWKbr5/OTeJ1l2j5T14iwP7uFnnl6GztZgIo92Xvhmn+lqHF06YMnMr PNHN6zfEds1EwE1RclUyvTr0lxUTH9AsqqLQl7K2RHuGev0mghxNpykfalPbBYndML yNUuUAtpQWOuCajwdu5LvgkQ41G2wSU590tNdveE= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ShA5rcglTuRWMiLeDCk9yQH6" Message-ID: <6dc1b559-dc55-f0d5-5151-97afa9905e43@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 11:46:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US From: Robert Sparks To: tools-discuss References: <163770246568.7379.18378228895439865411@ietfa.amsl.com> <747cb22c-fbd7-e930-f50e-5d1b3c371bed@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <747cb22c-fbd7-e930-f50e-5d1b3c371bed@nostrum.com> Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Tools Team Workshop on Mail Processing 6 Dec X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 17:46:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ShA5rcglTuRWMiLeDCk9yQH6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've started an agenda and some notes to work through at https://notes.ietf.org/tools-team-mail-202112 Please bash the agenda there, and add any helpful content you think we need to work through. RjS On 11/23/21 3:22 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: > > These are the coordinates for the workshop on 6Dec. > > RjS > > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: [TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT] The Tools Team (tools) TEAM Virtual > Meeting: 2021-12-06 > Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:21:05 -0800 > From: IESG Secretary > To: IETF-Announce > CC: tools-development@ietf.org, codesprints@ietf.org > > > > The The Tools Team (tools) Team will hold > a virtual interim meeting on 2021-12-06 from 12:00 to 15:00 > America/Chicago (18:00 to 21:00 UTC). > > Agenda: > This first Tools Team Workshop will focus on Mail Processing > > We expect to go over the processing flow of email going to our lists, > and discuss the following: > > * IDN support > What a Mailman 3 migration would require > What would be different with Mailman 3 > what would have to change in the rest of the processing chain > * Spam abatement > Virus scanning > Spamassassin > Postconfirm > Use of mailman’s mechanisms > * Ability to moderate a given participant > * DMARC rewriting > * Alias maintenance (-chairs@, -authors@, etc.) > > Information about remote participation: > https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=00a153e7-ecf9-4a56-a529-11d231797a81 > > _______________________________________________ > TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT mailing list > TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-development > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list -Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to:webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to:ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe):https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --------------ShA5rcglTuRWMiLeDCk9yQH6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I've started an agenda and some notes to work through at https://notes.ietf.org/tools-team-mail-202112

Please bash the agenda there, and add any helpful content you think we need to work through.

RjS

On 11/23/21 3:22 PM, Robert Sparks wrote:

These are the coordinates for the workshop on 6Dec.

RjS



-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: [TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT] The Tools Team (tools) TEAM Virtual Meeting: 2021-12-06
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:21:05 -0800
From: IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
CC: tools-development@ietf.org, codesprints@ietf.org


The The Tools Team (tools) Team will hold
a virtual interim meeting on 2021-12-06 from 12:00 to 15:00 America/Chicago (18:00 to 21:00 UTC).

Agenda:
This first Tools Team Workshop will focus on Mail Processing

We expect to go over the processing flow of email going to our lists, and discuss the following:

* IDN support
What a Mailman 3 migration would require
What would be different with Mailman 3
what would have to change in the rest of the processing chain
* Spam abatement
Virus scanning
Spamassassin
Postconfirm
Use of mailman’s mechanisms
* Ability to moderate a given participant
* DMARC rewriting
* Alias maintenance (<group>-chairs@, <document>-authors@, etc.)

Information about remote participation:
https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=00a153e7-ecf9-4a56-a529-11d231797a81

_______________________________________________
TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT mailing list
TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-development

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--------------ShA5rcglTuRWMiLeDCk9yQH6-- From nobody Thu Dec 2 12:18:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 829A03A08C1 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 12:18:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.93 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.93 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y1fiUsd2p2b2 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 12:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C59E93A08C5 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 12:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1B2KISuI026248 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 14:18:29 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638476309; bh=ZDpru0JCxr7ts4VzrsIszpgbB05y5ZdQ6hUUA0WSSm4=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=QepFFqfnZ7z25cYuLHk/JCif/0gzyBPBB0MqoeEEEil+V1KwnV4pQSiXx5aBDJGNC 6+YBgDhpxJ9Gea3oIqu4j2H/bqNw5Q7gjPlE2AFmqlpykgRj/hkPjwuKd+Cf0CI+7p YUfoxsh3hvDA5aapsjwSDZPwHHBUMXORG/RCQ9hY= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ShYliw1KnHpquuH51jJtbFLY" Message-ID: <22ffa770-82ad-04b5-f971-a5a05dd88e8a@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 14:18:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <163770246568.7379.18378228895439865411@ietfa.amsl.com> <747cb22c-fbd7-e930-f50e-5d1b3c371bed@nostrum.com> <6dc1b559-dc55-f0d5-5151-97afa9905e43@nostrum.com> From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: <6dc1b559-dc55-f0d5-5151-97afa9905e43@nostrum.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Tools Team Workshop on Mail Processing 6 Dec X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2021 20:18:37 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ShYliw1KnHpquuH51jJtbFLY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is the current agenda - it's tight. If you are going to attend, please consider reading through https://notes.ietf.org/tools-team-mail-202112 ahead of time to help start thinking about the questions we should ask and how to build the answers we seek. 10m Agenda Bashing 10m Processing overview 30m Improved User List Management Experience 40m Transition to Mailman3 10m IDN/EAI support 20m Spam abatement 30m Ability to moderate a given participant 15m DMARC rewriting 15m Alias maintenance On 12/1/21 11:46 AM, Robert Sparks wrote: > > I've started an agenda and some notes to work through at > https://notes.ietf.org/tools-team-mail-202112 > > Please bash the agenda there, and add any helpful content you think we > need to work through. > > RjS > > On 11/23/21 3:22 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: >> >> These are the coordinates for the workshop on 6Dec. >> >> RjS >> >> >> >> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >> Subject: [TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT] The Tools Team (tools) TEAM Virtual >> Meeting: 2021-12-06 >> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:21:05 -0800 >> From: IESG Secretary >> To: IETF-Announce >> CC: tools-development@ietf.org, codesprints@ietf.org >> >> >> >> The The Tools Team (tools) Team will hold >> a virtual interim meeting on 2021-12-06 from 12:00 to 15:00 >> America/Chicago (18:00 to 21:00 UTC). >> >> Agenda: >> This first Tools Team Workshop will focus on Mail Processing >> >> We expect to go over the processing flow of email going to our lists, >> and discuss the following: >> >> * IDN support >> What a Mailman 3 migration would require >> What would be different with Mailman 3 >> what would have to change in the rest of the processing chain >> * Spam abatement >> Virus scanning >> Spamassassin >> Postconfirm >> Use of mailman’s mechanisms >> * Ability to moderate a given participant >> * DMARC rewriting >> * Alias maintenance (-chairs@, -authors@, etc.) >> >> Information about remote participation: >> https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=00a153e7-ecf9-4a56-a529-11d231797a81 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT mailing list >> TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-development >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list -Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to:webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to:ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe):https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list -Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to:webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to:ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe):https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --------------ShYliw1KnHpquuH51jJtbFLY Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

This is the current agenda - it's tight.

If you are going to attend, please consider reading through https://notes.ietf.org/tools-team-mail-202112 ahead of time to help start thinking about the questions we should ask and how to build the answers we seek.

10m Agenda Bashing
10m Processing overview
30m Improved User List Management Experience
40m Transition to Mailman3
10m IDN/EAI support
20m Spam abatement
30m Ability to moderate a given participant
15m DMARC rewriting
15m Alias maintenance

On 12/1/21 11:46 AM, Robert Sparks wrote:

I've started an agenda and some notes to work through at https://notes.ietf.org/tools-team-mail-202112

Please bash the agenda there, and add any helpful content you think we need to work through.

RjS

On 11/23/21 3:22 PM, Robert Sparks wrote:

These are the coordinates for the workshop on 6Dec.

RjS



-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: [TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT] The Tools Team (tools) TEAM Virtual Meeting: 2021-12-06
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:21:05 -0800
From: IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
CC: tools-development@ietf.org, codesprints@ietf.org


The The Tools Team (tools) Team will hold
a virtual interim meeting on 2021-12-06 from 12:00 to 15:00 America/Chicago (18:00 to 21:00 UTC).

Agenda:
This first Tools Team Workshop will focus on Mail Processing

We expect to go over the processing flow of email going to our lists, and discuss the following:

* IDN support
What a Mailman 3 migration would require
What would be different with Mailman 3
what would have to change in the rest of the processing chain
* Spam abatement
Virus scanning
Spamassassin
Postconfirm
Use of mailman’s mechanisms
* Ability to moderate a given participant
* DMARC rewriting
* Alias maintenance (<group>-chairs@, <document>-authors@, etc.)

Information about remote participation:
https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=00a153e7-ecf9-4a56-a529-11d231797a81

_______________________________________________
TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT mailing list
TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-development

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--------------ShYliw1KnHpquuH51jJtbFLY-- From nobody Thu Dec 2 15:00:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93FD03A0400; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 15:00:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.93 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.93 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cgfIvy_hB_LB; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 15:00:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C6483A040B; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 15:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 1B2N0J4E055207 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 2 Dec 2021 17:00:19 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1638486020; bh=Hvdb4Wbvdzs8n/SunLsqTGKZTIMMUwcd/Bdld9fg1GM=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To; b=GQZfoIP6a+icbyRt8BX8Ou+s7X1y6j8ldHReSlD7zlrWfiAE1a2Jzg3kU2TWBJf0F 3jl0JqbvFttyXBeytxo6tsJm861RsihxU8Ng3qz7YeAvzSoVO+myk13i0PytRRs4m3 HcnC2gxv8wZV1gXA8EDovwfxAiE6O/ZBS4sd1s4w= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------I57badNEPlqHLkCum8lVTxtH" Message-ID: <96108249-dea0-9502-b418-42cf67fdb442@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 17:00:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.2 Content-Language: en-US To: Ole Jacobsen , tools-discuss@ietf.org Cc: Ole Jacobsen References: <94385EBE-4162-41C9-95C6-9275EF611786@me.com> From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: <94385EBE-4162-41C9-95C6-9275EF611786@me.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] The Citation Tool X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2021 23:00:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------I57badNEPlqHLkCum8lVTxtH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Ole - See https://github.com/ietf-tools/tools-transition-plan/issues/5 We're not planning to build a replacement for that particular service immediately. I'll capture it as a wish for re-implementation. RjS On 10/19/21 10:10 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: > Hi folks, > > One tool that I used constantly was written specifically "for me" by > Henrik > and can be found here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/ > > This is a really useful way to generate citations for either IDs or > RFCs in > one of two variant formats. > > Change the default template to "andlist" then enter "1918" and you > will get: > > Daniel Karrenberg, Yakov Rekhter, Eliot Lear, and Geert Jan de Groot, > "Address Allocation for Private Internets," RFC 1918, February 1996. > > I should note that this only works for RFCs up to 8990 presumably > because some underlying > indexing script stops running. > > Would LOVE to see this functionality replicated in your new system. > > Cheers, > > Ole > > Ole J. Jacobsen > Editor and Publisher > The Internet Protocol Journal > Office: +1 415-550-9433 > Cell:   +1 415-370-4628 > Web: protocoljournal.org > E-mail: olejacobsen@me.com > E-mail: ole@protocoljournal.org > Skype: organdemo > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list -Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to:webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to:ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe):https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --------------I57badNEPlqHLkCum8lVTxtH Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Ole -

See https://github.com/ietf-tools/tools-transition-plan/issues/5

We're not planning to build a replacement for that particular service immediately. I'll capture it as a wish for re-implementation.

RjS

On 10/19/21 10:10 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
Hi folks,

One tool that I used constantly was written specifically "for me" by Henrik
and can be found here:


This is a really useful way to generate citations for either IDs or RFCs in
one of two variant formats. 

Change the default template to "andlist" then enter "1918" and you will get:

Daniel Karrenberg, Yakov Rekhter, Eliot Lear, and Geert Jan de Groot, "Address Allocation for Private Internets," RFC 1918, February 1996.

I should note that this only works for RFCs up to 8990 presumably because some underlying
indexing script stops running.

Would LOVE to see this functionality replicated in your new system.

Cheers,

Ole

Ole J. Jacobsen
Editor and Publisher
The Internet Protocol Journal
Office: +1 415-550-9433
Cell:   +1 415-370-4628
Web: protocoljournal.org
E-mail: olejacobsen@me.com
E-mail: ole@protocoljournal.org
Skype: organdemo




___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
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--------------I57badNEPlqHLkCum8lVTxtH-- From nobody Thu Dec 2 17:47:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB6C3A0F61 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 17:47:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mAF1a0mxmIJo for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 17:47:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x529.google.com (mail-pg1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 640723A0033 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 17:47:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x529.google.com with SMTP id 200so1540594pga.1 for ; Thu, 02 Dec 2021 17:47:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=F3L92Gju1G7BGLbdLcz0xqGWgqJwYaEDM04oPATC6tc=; b=c0ReSR+udyvdC7GdMLj9NWAyreBdOVtS1cD559A6/2uWa9ECKRhH2N4MxDCct4CuAS V2juJPsrRLUPgV0DCbvMsmaJPCEqxr9yAUIVNkiF+3mBAYNr5mZPqOE5A1GnkwkJCJtc VjrqXIYv5uQQ9XD97nNpZoe7Z7deqVVx/Kp1l4TJHacOjaq4IS0Cy3dW3sv+/wMeSVX6 NBvDxSjS4d47jS8GO5Xatk20vNwwR2IHQPYuHpj3cf9luK+QxtbjbWeuYpauQmqsAC3v v3XOGxvc9I6L0e3TkcubeOF7oJa+UJHLUMlg1uzMTiAXcjlAxua28CWV6gq0kmnI7KcS k4lg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=F3L92Gju1G7BGLbdLcz0xqGWgqJwYaEDM04oPATC6tc=; b=ynU9pAiTLJD8xhEL06pR4rOySiQ1CYjXRa2nRrFLHU3eROfVJ1NdjbNE8ppU5uObnO DNL45JAefeQKzkwqYVyZcvhhD4E/Hv1Z3roiYg2r42rDgNhBQvI1x1z9rblWfU8/SJ7g zGMIgtpW4p9MemFi7YDxmWhhy1nzVTqwOIPFi15rTI7ID93XbPX0xdLQO+e/0VYm4LaO pEprD505oO5IuxBfUmpr/cMTp/n/46kiWI0K7qIb42VesOypCo7OcivSwQtmagtQbOHW vKDSToFzNW8lieVJI1cupaspnhyL6TQ1dMwJWYi40OlNoLW+wscrvk2RQdRZ863LQHXq gmpA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531HxYUEFzORLIFkPWwSL4lWxHnsA1QcvoV6YdnzIP6NhsKKa4nn XmVC08RcYQEwyvtnLWN/mC4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzfvrqgtIYKM6uEHBI+Nco0BPCveiSZ8Wk7Z7Lezgr0qimlUD9AjrgKuf61IR+e4QddHbcsng== X-Received: by 2002:a63:80c7:: with SMTP id j190mr2188550pgd.239.1638496056401; Thu, 02 Dec 2021 17:47:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v1sm981417pfg.169.2021.12.02.17.47.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Dec 2021 17:47:35 -0800 (PST) To: Robert Sparks , Ole Jacobsen , tools-discuss@ietf.org Cc: Ole Jacobsen References: <94385EBE-4162-41C9-95C6-9275EF611786@me.com> <96108249-dea0-9502-b418-42cf67fdb442@nostrum.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <6786185e-770e-ef31-3174-0c157a1e99b8@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 14:47:30 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <96108249-dea0-9502-b418-42cf67fdb442@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] The Citation Tool X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2021 01:47:42 -0000 Ole, For RFCs, try the "Cite this RFC: TXT" field at (e.g) https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1984 For drafts, it seems trivial to create the format you want from (e.g.) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-anima-asa-guidelines/04/bibte= x/ Regards Brian On 03-Dec-21 12:00, Robert Sparks wrote: > Hi Ole - >=20 > See https://github.com/ietf-tools/tools-transition-plan/issues/5 >=20 > We're not planning to build a replacement for that particular service i= mmediately. I'll capture it as a wish for re-implementation. >=20 > RjS >=20 > On 10/19/21 10:10 AM, Ole Jacobsen wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> One tool that I used constantly was written specifically "for me" by H= enrik >> and can be found here: >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/ >> >> This is a really useful way to generate citations for either IDs or RF= Cs in >> one of two variant formats. >> >> Change the default template to "andlist" then enter "1918" and you wil= l get: >> >> Daniel Karrenberg, Yakov Rekhter, Eliot Lear, and Geert Jan de Groot, = "Address Allocation for Private Internets," RFC 1918, February 1996. >> >> I should note that this only works for RFCs up to 8990 presumably beca= use some underlying >> indexing script stops running. >> >> Would LOVE to see this functionality replicated in your new system. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Ole >> >> Ole J. Jacobsen >> Editor and Publisher >> The Internet Protocol=C2=A0Journal >> Office: +1 415-550-9433 >> Cell: =C2=A0 +1 415-370-4628 >> Web: protocoljournal.org >> E-mail:=C2=A0olejacobsen@me.com >> E-mail: ole@protocoljournal.org >> Skype: organdemo >> >> >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list -Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:datatracker-project@ietf.= org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to:webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to:ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe):https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 From nobody Mon Dec 6 15:12:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 209E83A0AE4 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 15:12:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tnfBqnI_CJ1V for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 15:12:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C6703A0BF2 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 15:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 76220 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2021 23:12:14 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; s=129ba.61ae98ce.k2112; bh=xEXgLN2Igu76ahtT8lgv0kuUArhgaLTySOjcsl3LSGI=; b=tugkCKyGfHIRV0UnN4rJ4bSXHTNT8ljuvq/UcNvMBPgGidQkAYbF1c/1j3s1aR+PqMq2MdEWJQtyr4X+0wQCoKDMQK0sIy1MBhLvX752E7xeQqc20FkRZ56xQHlsVjb5aJ0AIKB+6hHclt33GBkh5PkCNq0+0zkktmKnuvgzQbI8x9+t6oo71fcQhHJWqS1E/aiCK5fbshzhiCi7ChQxbIP3ODCtx0sCt7oTwY3GuAa3YjVtBSQIAF1/hZYo/F9rD4uO8TIGRsN40+0sNiXWaInk7zwrWWAKTE6DIVecr5Z8ZfPx12gMSi2xRh0kFXI8Z7NGmhxcz+W+HzY3kavH3A== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 06 Dec 2021 23:12:14 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 2CBE03112D4E; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 18:12:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id A134E3112D2D; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 18:12:13 -0500 (EST) Date: 6 Dec 2021 18:12:13 -0500 Message-ID: <49015376-537d-8ee9-24b7-bbf77c9a817b@iecc.com> From: "John R. Levine" To: "Robert Sparks" , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Lots of aliases, was Tools Team Workshop on Mail Processing 6 Dec X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 23:12:44 -0000 Viktor confirms that 50K entries in a postfix alias map is no problem. It gives you a choice of several underlying databases, with cdb, Berkeley DB, and lmdb being good choices. If the data are coming out of a postgres or mysql database, postfix can query either directly and you can cut out the middleman, e.g. http://www.postfix.org/pgsql_table.5.html Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Thu Dec 16 19:50:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187523A12BE for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:50:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 51jhs4SLLy1G for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:50:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F2573A12B8 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:50:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDA0404BFA1 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:50:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m19464fMg1_t for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 604DB404BFA0 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:50:41 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.20.0.1.32\)) Message-Id: <27F53CC1-570F-4A47-A97B-B9DD6171343A@ietf.org> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 16:50:35 +1300 To: Tools Team Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.20.0.1.32) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] authors.ietf.org now ready for community review X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 03:50:47 -0000 # Context At the end of 2020/start of 2021, the analysis of the survey of I-D = authors recommended a new central resource site for I-D authors bringing = together the documentation that is currently in multiple hard to find = places, and we were given notice that the servers running tools.ietf.org = would be turned off. Consequently, work began in 2021 on a new site = intended to be both that central resource and the new home for the = documentation on tools.ietf.org. This site is now ready for community = review at http://authors.ietf.org The goals of this new site are: - Bring all I-D authoring-related information into one place - Put that information into a structure that works equally well for = novices, occasional authors and experts. - Ensure a full coverage of all the topics that authors need to know - Clear up the out of date, duplicate and incorrect information. The content comes from the following sources: - The catalog of tools on the front page of tools.ietf.org [0] with = added categorisation and feature matrix - The xml2rfc vocabulary documentation [1] with added examples and = schema snippets - Some pages on rfc-editor.org with relevant content [2] [3] [4] - The Guidelines for I-D authors [5] - New content to provide the necessary structure and fill any gaps. This site is intended solely for I-D authors and so does not contain the = following content: - Details of the standards process - Documentation on the AUTH48 review and subsequent publication process = as those are processes for RFCs not I-Ds. This remains on = rfc-editor.org=20 # Key changes The site introduces the following key changes to the existing content: 1. What was previously referred to as "the xml2rfc vocabulary" is now = referred to as RFCXML. This is in line with the normal naming of XML = languages and separates out the language from the tool, providing for = independent implementations. This change has been broadly supported by = the RSOC, the Temporary RFC Series PM and the community tools developers = who have been asked to preview the site. 2. The previous community supplied XML template has been replaced with = three 'official' templates in order to: - support modern XML editors that provide schema-aware editing - ensure that the template reflects best practice as expected by the RPC = (e.g. using for source code, not ) - provide different templates for different levels of expertise - reflect the schema and entity changes as noted below The templates are: draft-rfcxml-general-template-standard.xml draft-rfcxml-general-template-bare.xml draft-rfcxml-general-template-annotated.xml These templates, together with the schemas are all available on the site = [6] and in a GitHub repository [7]=20 3. The schemas have been reorganised to more accurately reflect their = contents and usage. In particular ensuring that the name matches the = contents and matches the RFC that defines those contents. - rfc7991.rnc has not changed - v3.rnc has been renamed to rfc7991bis.rnc - v2.rnc has been renamed to rfc7749.rnc - rfc2629.dtd has had all references to it removed as it was effectively = deprecated some time ago - rfc2629-html.ent and rfc2629-other.ent have been deprecated as special = entity processing is not required in v3 The legacy schemas and associated files are all available in a single = GitHub repository [8]. (In related news, the authors of rfc2629.xslt and kramdown-rfc2629 have = agreed to rename their tools to remove the RFC-specific part which = refers to v1 of RFCXML.) # Known issues - In preparation for the migration of tools.ietf.org, some tool links = point to placeholder repositories on GitHub rather than the current home = for that tool. - Some links still point to tools.ietf.org=20 - There are a number of limitations in the underlying wiki product that = are due to be addressed in upcoming versions: - The site does not have an IETF look and feel. This is=20 - The page contents menu is automatically generated and placed and = some people don=E2=80=99t like it. =20 - Some checklist items render incorrectly. # Ongoing maintenance Until such time as a community structure is put in place to maintain = this site, it will be maintained as required by the tools team, = Temporary RFC Series Project Manager, LLC and RPC. The content is all = available on GitHub [9] and issues and pull requests are welcome. # Outstanding work There is some work that will be completed after community review: - Adding MIB/YANG specific XML templates - Adding more examples to the vocabulary reference # Go live The plan is for the site to go live when the big switchover from = tools.ietf.org happens (that includes more than just this site). The = front page of tools.ietf.org and possibly it's 404 page will then = redirect to this site. In addition, the following needs to happen to = ensure that we do not continue with multiple sets of duplicate and = inconsistent documentation: - the RPC will review the content on the rfc-editor.org site and = remove/redirect/refresh as appropriate=20 - xml2rfc will not longer output details of the vocabulary but refer = instead to this site - the IESG will decide what to do about the Guidelines for I-D Authors=20= # Community review Please let us know what you think of this site and if you have any = specific issues or suggestions then a GitHub issue or pull request at = https://github.com/ietf-authors/authors.ietf.org would be ideal. It = expected that this will be an ongoing process of review and improvement. Jay [0] https://tools.ietf.org [1] https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/xml2rfc-doc.html [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/FAQ-xml2rfcv3.html [3] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rse/wiki/doku.php?id=3Dsvg_files [4] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rse/wiki/doku.php?id=3Dv3_feature_usage [5] https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines/ [6] https://authors.ietf.org/en/templates-and-schemas [7] https://github.com/ietf-authors/rfcxml-templates-and-schemas=20 [8] https://github.com/ietf-authors/legacy-templates-and-schemas [9] https://github.com/ietf-authors/authors.ietf.org --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Fri Dec 17 01:04:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C2F3A18EB for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 01:04:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.181 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.181 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1kHGrqOk5LwU for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 01:04:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B315C3A18EE for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 01:04:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BH94Z6i024473 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:04:35 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id E972F202EB8 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:04:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E000E202669 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:04:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BH94YnR025417 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:04:34 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:04:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.0 Content-Language: fr To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <7f2430b2-ff42-74a0-4788-cab92c18cb78@gmail.com> <24970.31541.811733.279425@fireball.acr.fi> <24970.59722.666358.972665@fireball.acr.fi> <63d75857-903e-67d7-0805-b9bc145219ff@gmail.com> <24974.29967.296570.69590@fireball.acr.fi> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Clickable URLs in slides displayed in Meetecho X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:04:42 -0000 fyi I see now that in Microsoft Teams it is possible that the watcher (not the presenter) can advance slides and click on URLs... Hopefully such functionality is available in meetecho soon. Le 12/11/2021 à 18:36, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > > > Le 12/11/2021 à 15:07, Tero Kivinen a écrit : >> Alexandre Petrescu writes: >>> Clickable URLs is one thing, but 'hoverable' URL would be an >>> advancement as well, probably. >> >> Something like what is now in the >> https://kivinen.iki.fi/ietf-112-combined/slide-001.html pages? > > YEs, hovering a second time over the distinguished "BCP 79" does display > the tooltip "IPR in IETF Technos". > > This is yes what I meant, and thank you very much. > > This does help a lot during the meeting in order to understand what the > presenter means without having to download the pdf, click the URL, load > other pages.  It is a real shortcut. > > Alex > >> >> It does load the titles from the datatracker using datatracker api >> when you first hover over the RFC or BCP name, and that will take >> some time, so you might need to move mouse out from the link and back >> in to get the tooltip visible (browsers wait for unspecified time >> before they show the title when you stop, and depending on the >> network speed and datatracker load the title might or might not be >> loaded at that time). >> >> The script to do conversion is in the same directory: >> https://kivinen.iki.fi/ietf-112-combined/find-pdf-http-links3.py and >> the javascript loading the titles is in the slides.js file in same >> directory. >> >>> Hovering over a URL which tells an RFC would conveniently display >>> its title without actually having to click on it.  An example of >>> such hoverable behaviour is the experience of browsing through >>> wikipedia. > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Fri Dec 17 01:20:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6E933A193D for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 01:20:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.181 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.181 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id df4jPwmZk_F2 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 01:20:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C0193A193A for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 01:20:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BH9KO0P016037 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:20:24 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 5EE15202F73 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:20:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55435202F5B for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:20:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BH9KOYl006848 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:20:24 +0100 Message-ID: <93db6664-8e04-02b6-539b-e4f65f7860c6@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:20:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.0 Content-Language: fr To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <7f2430b2-ff42-74a0-4788-cab92c18cb78@gmail.com> <24970.31541.811733.279425@fireball.acr.fi> <24970.59722.666358.972665@fireball.acr.fi> <63d75857-903e-67d7-0805-b9bc145219ff@gmail.com> <24974.29967.296570.69590@fireball.acr.fi> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Clickable URLs in slides displayed in Meetecho X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:20:32 -0000 I mean, _certain_ presentations can be advanced by the watcher in Teams. Probably only the pptx slides can, whereas the pdfs not. Hopefully a more capable tool than Teams would allow the watcher to advance _all_ slides of any file format. Alex Le 17/12/2021 à 10:04, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > fyi I see now that in Microsoft Teams it is possible that the watcher > (not the presenter) can advance slides and click on URLs... > > Hopefully such functionality is available in meetecho soon. > > Le 12/11/2021 à 18:36, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >> >> >> Le 12/11/2021 à 15:07, Tero Kivinen a écrit : >>> Alexandre Petrescu writes: >>>> Clickable URLs is one thing, but 'hoverable' URL would be an >>>> advancement as well, probably. >>> >>> Something like what is now in the >>> https://kivinen.iki.fi/ietf-112-combined/slide-001.html pages? >> >> YEs, hovering a second time over the distinguished "BCP 79" does display >> the tooltip "IPR in IETF Technos". >> >> This is yes what I meant, and thank you very much. >> >> This does help a lot during the meeting in order to understand what the >> presenter means without having to download the pdf, click the URL, load >> other pages.  It is a real shortcut. >> >> Alex >> >>> >>> It does load the titles from the datatracker using datatracker api >>> when you first hover over the RFC or BCP name, and that will take >>> some time, so you might need to move mouse out from the link and back >>> in to get the tooltip visible (browsers wait for unspecified time >>> before they show the title when you stop, and depending on the >>> network speed and datatracker load the title might or might not be >>> loaded at that time). >>> >>> The script to do conversion is in the same directory: >>> https://kivinen.iki.fi/ietf-112-combined/find-pdf-http-links3.py and >>> the javascript loading the titles is in the slides.js file in same >>> directory. >>> >>>> Hovering over a URL which tells an RFC would conveniently display >>>> its title without actually having to click on it.  An example of >>>> such hoverable behaviour is the experience of browsing through >>>> wikipedia. >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Fri Dec 17 01:53:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 826F73A19DC for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 01:53:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.181 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.181 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wzStwAR_ihBw for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 01:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBD643A1A3D for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 01:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BH9rCS0032488 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:53:12 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 8D0FE202FED for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:53:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82BD7202F33 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:53:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 1BH9rCqQ001871 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:53:12 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:53:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.4.0 Content-Language: fr To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <7f2430b2-ff42-74a0-4788-cab92c18cb78@gmail.com> <24970.31541.811733.279425@fireball.acr.fi> <24970.59722.666358.972665@fireball.acr.fi> <63d75857-903e-67d7-0805-b9bc145219ff@gmail.com> <24974.29967.296570.69590@fireball.acr.fi> <93db6664-8e04-02b6-539b-e4f65f7860c6@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu In-Reply-To: <93db6664-8e04-02b6-539b-e4f65f7860c6@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Clickable URLs in slides displayed in Meetecho X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:53:26 -0000 Sorry, to correct myself. The watcher's ability to advance slides in Teams is not related to the pptx-vs-pdf format. Someone displays pdfs and I can advance them, some other person displays pptxs and I can advance, other pptx I can not advance. There must be some other criteria in Teams that allows the watcher to advance or not the slides. I dont know what. Alex Le 17/12/2021 à 10:20, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > I mean, _certain_ presentations can be advanced by the watcher in Teams. > > Probably only the pptx slides can, whereas the pdfs not. > > Hopefully a more capable tool than Teams would allow the watcher to > advance _all_ slides of any file format. > > Alex > > Le 17/12/2021 à 10:04, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >> fyi I see now that in Microsoft Teams it is possible that the watcher >> (not the presenter) can advance slides and click on URLs... >> >> Hopefully such functionality is available in meetecho soon. >> >> Le 12/11/2021 à 18:36, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>> >>> >>> Le 12/11/2021 à 15:07, Tero Kivinen a écrit : >>>> Alexandre Petrescu writes: >>>>> Clickable URLs is one thing, but 'hoverable' URL would be an >>>>> advancement as well, probably. >>>> >>>> Something like what is now in the >>>> https://kivinen.iki.fi/ietf-112-combined/slide-001.html pages? >>> >>> YEs, hovering a second time over the distinguished "BCP 79" does display >>> the tooltip "IPR in IETF Technos". >>> >>> This is yes what I meant, and thank you very much. >>> >>> This does help a lot during the meeting in order to understand what the >>> presenter means without having to download the pdf, click the URL, load >>> other pages.  It is a real shortcut. >>> >>> Alex >>> >>>> >>>> It does load the titles from the datatracker using datatracker api >>>> when you first hover over the RFC or BCP name, and that will take >>>> some time, so you might need to move mouse out from the link and back >>>> in to get the tooltip visible (browsers wait for unspecified time >>>> before they show the title when you stop, and depending on the >>>> network speed and datatracker load the title might or might not be >>>> loaded at that time). >>>> >>>> The script to do conversion is in the same directory: >>>> https://kivinen.iki.fi/ietf-112-combined/find-pdf-http-links3.py and >>>> the javascript loading the titles is in the slides.js file in same >>>> directory. >>>> >>>>> Hovering over a URL which tells an RFC would conveniently display >>>>> its title without actually having to click on it.  An example of >>>>> such hoverable behaviour is the experience of browsing through >>>>> wikipedia. >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >>> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >>> datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >>> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Fri Dec 17 13:50:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E14643A08D6; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:50:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HsrWcP0zVoX3; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:50:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00:e000:2bb::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 035713A08D7; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:50:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:40::859]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D75BD1F479; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:50:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id BAE531A0232; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 16:50:42 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Jay Daley , Tools Team Discussion In-reply-to: <27F53CC1-570F-4A47-A97B-B9DD6171343A@ietf.org> References: <27F53CC1-570F-4A47-A97B-B9DD6171343A@ietf.org> Comments: In-reply-to Jay Daley message dated "Fri, 17 Dec 2021 16:50:35 +1300." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7.1; GNU Emacs 26.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 16:50:42 -0500 Message-ID: <74671.1639777842@dooku> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] authors.ietf.org now ready for community review X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:50:50 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jay Daley wrote: > At the end of 2020/start of 2021, the analysis of the survey of I-D > authors recommended a new central resource site for I-D authors > bringing together the documentation that is currently in multiple hard > to find places, and we were given notice that the servers running > tools.ietf.org would be turned off. Consequently, work began in 2021 > on a new site intended to be both that central resource and the new > home for the documentation on tools.ietf.org. This site is now ready > for community review at http://authors.ietf.org The layout is so bad (two left-hand bars) that I really can't see past that to the content. Sorry to be so critical here. > - Put that information into a structure that works equally well for > novices, occasional authors and experts. =20=20=20=20 As a seasoned person, I can't really find anything relevant, because it see= ms to be aimed at newbies. I think, as a newbie, I'd be overwhelmed by the number of links I think that I might care about, and I'd decide not to bother. The IETF is too hard. > This site is intended solely for I-D authors and so does not contain = the following content: > - Details of the standards process > - Documentation on the AUTH48 review and subsequent publication proce= ss > as those are processes for RFCs not I-Ds. This remains on > rfc-editor.org Yes, there is a diagram that sure looks like it contains details of the process. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAmG9BjIACgkQlUzhVv38 QpBD1gf/Qr5IUBKLhPPHWSOmNCMJoApKjzN/8zniBAxnR+sw+IxnVRBI+OGMDaaQ BIxhNmHoeXijbO2c1GNLDMXoIaaM4bskluunbAzrGXffYoi0PDE6i3KuYuc44P0Y 3pnXmqHVcJ/RBuLG4dCfFG0aQ9yrrpr/xh14c8a6rrhP8/yznpFrRO4RTeJnXwFh on6jyOmcGDV/a7znTGAIZ91QBnY5B/geaeTcKTbTTp7zLicL51RkJVjC7remgKvo awaUsdo/5LHuaEE02a53zLlD+QO6VBFgfcKbfFs4A1XLK77cZ1ndFtU3KXIW456H p6NPuWda7FZ/hKVwvHTtvO0oOd53cQ== =qScw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Dec 17 14:14:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE0D53A095E for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:14:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qldcro4JmdEp for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 571BD3A0958 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id j6so1319527ila.4 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:14:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BygJlDy8g4/zchwWQet0ft+Y03y56EyfR3XSGgndXB4=; b=5CnwMKuzmoODkKGIx0zduv5GlIrDFZKAdKR77Yi25NPvvaX2k5yYcHO7r61h301z1l 2YfqA9kfvcudzfeVBY9rVjo8zwCRZPxdF5LPFJx9BmLt5OomOfs8bPBcKZMIom+iaV8I GCj7Y3Qte/cgO6/O/pmhyqjL6zKrIijx9cmurcMgld1ytQPE7QFlu1CjTdWI9Zu9NO1K WcD4IgHYplKyT4oY3DNwvWrndaKYA4Vr47v+byTnmDnW4v67DI8wC/35geEhmyY1h5Ec j6Rb7BISFHCirQqkAFETPHV4W/5Q6Ur8sJfyPe+Ty3tVQDdAw0rusoenK29A4ifj/+or hh8A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BygJlDy8g4/zchwWQet0ft+Y03y56EyfR3XSGgndXB4=; b=yL4BArLJXIAzz/ULy05yWMY6jdZCo7AwaA76UtNcR7Jvg9s6+1TM3f3YP9PTB9vuVt H2Eo215qpHD/Y/x1MA0eceJ2vG1BML2T3eapHcCc05q+RKOPFip3LepiZlGbGeh60c9d u5R7R0wB4UzSZ7afDWtryA5AFN7LIbpNbZu48ahHjpF7h3VxcQoJ7B/Qn/NrMghlCCwR PvvOZzaFhsbP3YM3ZSd314qvo0B49rZnDCARzb8rcPNDJ5uQsFeB15St0PyZHykRFPSu ZJYxFvNgSlHfDt7EzrGeEl9YqXVjtPpDR4vOKbJNFBZMmUhFDb9/quUcAsQrljHvqPGb YPlw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532bU8ZGiJyb2W2vTZsRa5WfYjH/0aWzNYPn3/CphzRN1MO8Pzli sW3JtS0RVNvkfis9Z97KSumE9EgZgQ1nRowNebrydg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwg9D2AEooL9jTo3n5Cpi1QMfUJKBdvfuxfDt4hPESqET5qd3PhAWVs3ZnPH5SzAAVWq0tO1dVNbb0eQ9xZFk8= X-Received: by 2002:a92:ddc8:: with SMTP id d8mr2748745ilr.10.1639779266383; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:14:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <27F53CC1-570F-4A47-A97B-B9DD6171343A@ietf.org> <74671.1639777842@dooku> In-Reply-To: <74671.1639777842@dooku> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:13:50 -0800 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: Jay Daley , Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000aee84005d35edcc5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] authors.ietf.org now ready for community review X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:14:34 -0000 --000000000000aee84005d35edcc5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I share some of MCR's concerns here. I think the underlying problem is that this feels like a reference manual. Those of course have their place, but what's really needed is an opinionated quickstart guide that tells people how to make progress. As a concrete example, when I go to "Drafting in XML" it tells me a bunch of stuff about how to edit the document, but I need to go to "Rendering and Converting" to learn how to actually make the document. IMO a better approach would be a step-by-step guide to (for instance) use markdown. It would go like this. 1. First clone internet-draft-template 2. Rename your draft 3. Setup the repository with make setup (or whatever) 4. Now build the draft 5. Submit (e.g., using https://github.com/martinthomson/i-d-template/blob/main/doc/SUBMITTING.md#github-release ) As an example of what I'm talking about, here's the tutorial for ExpressJS, which starts from nothing, goes through Hello World, etc. https://expressjs.com/en/starter/installing.html Once people have the basics, we can teach them what Emacs plugin to use with XML or whatever.... -Ekr On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 1:50 PM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Jay Daley wrote: > > At the end of 2020/start of 2021, the analysis of the survey of I-D > > authors recommended a new central resource site for I-D authors > > bringing together the documentation that is currently in multiple > hard > > to find places, and we were given notice that the servers running > > tools.ietf.org would be turned off. Consequently, work began in > 2021 > > on a new site intended to be both that central resource and the new > > home for the documentation on tools.ietf.org. This site is now ready > > for community review at http://authors.ietf.org > > The layout is so bad (two left-hand bars) that I really can't see past that > to the content. Sorry to be so critical here. > > > - Put that information into a structure that works equally well for > > novices, occasional authors and experts. > > As a seasoned person, I can't really find anything relevant, because it > seems > to be aimed at newbies. > > I think, as a newbie, I'd be overwhelmed by the number of links I think > that > I might care about, and I'd decide not to bother. The IETF is too hard. > > > This site is intended solely for I-D authors and so does not contain > the following content: > > > - Details of the standards process > > - Documentation on the AUTH48 review and subsequent publication > process > > as those are processes for RFCs not I-Ds. This remains on > > rfc-editor.org > > Yes, there is a diagram that sure looks like it contains details of the > process. > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh > networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network > architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on > rails [ > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000aee84005d35edcc5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I share some of MCR's concerns here.

I think th= e underlying problem is that this feels like a reference
manual. Those o= f course have their place, but what's really needed is
an opinionate= d quickstart guide that tells people how to make
progress.

As a c= oncrete example, when I go to "Drafting in XML" it tells me a
= bunch of stuff about how to edit the document, but I need to go to
"= ;Rendering and Converting" to learn how to actually make the document.=
IMO a better approach would be a step-by-step guide to (for instance)use markdown.

It would go like this.

1. First clone interne= t-draft-template
2. Rename your draft
3. Setup the repository with ma= ke setup (or whatever)
4. Now build the draft
5. Submit (e.g., using = https://github.com/martinthomson/i-d-template/blo= b/main/doc/SUBMITTING.md#github-release)

As an example of what I= 'm talking about, here's the tutorial for
ExpressJS, which start= s from nothing, goes through Hello World,
etc.

https://expressjs.com/en/starter= /installing.html

Once people have the basics, we can teach them = what Emacs plugin
to use with XML or whatever....

-Ekr

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0



=
On Fri, De= c 17, 2021 at 1:50 PM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

Jay Daley <e= xec-director@ietf.org> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > At the end of 2020/start of 2021, the analysis of the su= rvey of I-D
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > authors recommended a new central resource site for I-D = authors
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > bringing together the documentation that is currently in= multiple hard
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to find places, and we were given notice that the server= s running
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > tools.ietf.org would be turned off.=C2=A0 Consequently, = work began in 2021
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > on a new site intended to be both that central resource = and the new
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > home for the documentation on tools.ietf.org. This site = is now ready
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > for community review at http://authors.ietf.org

The layout is so bad (two left-hand bars) that I really can't see past = that
to the content.=C2=A0 Sorry to be so critical here.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > - Put that information into a structure that works equal= ly well for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > novices, occasional authors and experts.

As a seasoned person, I can't really find anything relevant, because it= seems
to be aimed at newbies.

I think, as a newbie, I'd be overwhelmed by the number of links I think= that
I might care about, and I'd decide not to bother. The IETF is too hard.=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > This site is intended solely for I-D authors and so does= not contain the following content:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > - Details of the standards process
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > - Documentation on the AUTH48 review and subsequent publ= ication process
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > as those are processes for RFCs not I-Ds.=C2=A0 This rem= ains on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > rfc-editor.org

Yes, there is a diagram that sure looks like it contains details of the
process.

--
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Never tell me the o= dds!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| ipv6 me= sh networks [
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 | network architect=C2=A0 [
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= mcr@sandelman.ca=C2=A0 http://www.sandelman.ca/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0ruby on rails=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--000000000000aee84005d35edcc5-- From nobody Fri Dec 17 14:15:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 288203A095E; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:15:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RJXgkd6yfu12; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:15:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1034.google.com (mail-pj1-x1034.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 602903A0958; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:15:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1034.google.com with SMTP id z9-20020a17090a7b8900b001b13558eadaso5260474pjc.4; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:15:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0/oCdlEw7wbYykx0LlN5z5XS1OT6gVnVwvulbCeYq/U=; b=AFllYC7ok3E12o38Nur3+fjxjofGE33Jdne8ifNigD01ziCDFtRGSQ6Ne31TU/woKU mzoDuvOJt+6h5+Pg4QWKu8sJp370O3/qK2mkYb4MVIWTLk6uHgZSO3MmcKdBud8N03Jx 3yVweFfMtSyTsoiJFfTekIL8h/5BA9Hig0jC6cGiaLEHtt/MjD/ZvkGES+N0k3+3WDQC XdjHznF5LWunbpF1reeF/rMdcPNT/krCmUaJe50aIw//UoGUogNKCKOxZNJkWI62zl84 013w3ppLEwnJtqz9Afnpe83Xeeu8SS4b2Ci95P6L1nkdhRzkwe3lkwqU6Q2TRNnmQXJx GLUw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=0/oCdlEw7wbYykx0LlN5z5XS1OT6gVnVwvulbCeYq/U=; b=ET52YOX2TUxvjF3GDYr2isfORd6ltgnQc+lL679YQEcKfmsqRphK/HGAOcFP77s4mf Wihys+CXhA7LctnmAS0kVTcN2WU/4IAhTZHnNwrCPwH5sNXHqkJVL0Y4a4NNa/ALdy6m AKwnVt8oQ5YBaobteXZ+FSkKWk6W7PFgg70AjDE1GuEsEoyCGa0VE1tS3z3xBYt2BRaD iNoIBuQOjiY8/q/YfFQuOy9iYbwUDAkOpFHpDmr/Yk4EaaRy9JtitavqJ/3TzyPHWKXu Nwl8avaGdQFvRdf4UhMF3i2Ny1RKgmMKgw2WYmCy16ldjA7bTsFnYtfxKnByUoiRmii2 LgqA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530mFHoyT8veZzj1rBeQ/XQhS9ybZp/6lFiuUiwVXrb5KgyYJNGP rcZmGLWMmGiZ4hcY1LaSX8o/qgcEQxkg7g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzu1DSE7uWU+2qz6qJab55/9BUZMEC+CF5hITa6CpXV+z9Y02cpTzHUSOjoR24XA5Te/KZ0VQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d492:b0:148:a2f7:9d61 with SMTP id c18-20020a170902d49200b00148a2f79d61mr5444627plg.128.1639779302854; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:15:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z71sm9281917pgz.52.2021.12.17.14.15.00 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:15:02 -0800 (PST) To: Michael Richardson , Jay Daley , Tools Team Discussion References: <27F53CC1-570F-4A47-A97B-B9DD6171343A@ietf.org> <74671.1639777842@dooku> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <337de702-c7f4-8340-09d9-a3037d9334b9@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 11:14:57 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <74671.1639777842@dooku> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] authors.ietf.org now ready for community review X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:15:09 -0000 Michael, I've switched to https://author-tools.ietf.org/ as my goto page. It has what I need and so far bugs and even feature requests are fixed in about 24 hours. So while you're correct that the info pages at authors.ietf.org need more work, the feedback on them needs to come from genuine newcomers, I think. That sounds like a job for EMO. Also, how does a newcomer get from https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/get-started/ to author-tools? Also a question for EMO. Regards Brian On 18-Dec-21 10:50, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Jay Daley wrote: > > At the end of 2020/start of 2021, the analysis of the survey of I-D > > authors recommended a new central resource site for I-D authors > > bringing together the documentation that is currently in multiple hard > > to find places, and we were given notice that the servers running > > tools.ietf.org would be turned off. Consequently, work began in 2021 > > on a new site intended to be both that central resource and the new > > home for the documentation on tools.ietf.org. This site is now ready > > for community review at http://authors.ietf.org > > The layout is so bad (two left-hand bars) that I really can't see past that > to the content. Sorry to be so critical here. > > > - Put that information into a structure that works equally well for > > novices, occasional authors and experts. > > As a seasoned person, I can't really find anything relevant, because it seems > to be aimed at newbies. > > I think, as a newbie, I'd be overwhelmed by the number of links I think that > I might care about, and I'd decide not to bother. The IETF is too hard. > > > This site is intended solely for I-D authors and so does not contain the following content: > > > - Details of the standards process > > - Documentation on the AUTH48 review and subsequent publication process > > as those are processes for RFCs not I-Ds. This remains on > > rfc-editor.org > > Yes, there is a diagram that sure looks like it contains details of the > process. > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > From nobody Fri Dec 17 15:42:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA6663A0C69 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:42:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p_t6wL-HnTJj for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:42:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15C413A0C55 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:42:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5280492AD13; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:42:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EoZz68graYlX; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:42:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5203E492AD0B; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:42:39 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 12:42:34 +1300 Message-Id: <4DAFF3E3-9645-4ACC-8699-E714C8526580@ietf.org> References: <74671.1639777842@dooku> Cc: Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: <74671.1639777842@dooku> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19B74) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] authors.ietf.org now ready for community review X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 23:42:45 -0000 Thanks for the review - comments below.=20 > On 18/12/2021, at 10:50 AM, Michael Richardson wro= te: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Jay Daley wrote: >> At the end of 2020/start of 2021, the analysis of the survey of I-D >> authors recommended a new central resource site for I-D authors >> bringing together the documentation that is currently in multiple hard >> to find places, and we were given notice that the servers running >> tools.ietf.org would be turned off. Consequently, work began in 2021 >> on a new site intended to be both that central resource and the new >> home for the documentation on tools.ietf.org. This site is now ready >> for community review at http://authors.ietf.org >=20 > The layout is so bad (two left-hand bars) that I really can't see past tha= t > to the content. Sorry to be so critical here. There=E2=80=99s been a lot of feedback about this middle =E2=80=98page conte= nts=E2=80=99 menu in the initial testing, with some wanting it gone entirel= y, some wanting it moved to the right and some wanting it reimplemented in a= different way. The next major release of the wiki product should address th= at.=20 >=20 >> - Put that information into a structure that works equally well for >> novices, occasional authors and experts. >=20 > As a seasoned person, I can't really find anything relevant, because it se= ems > to be aimed at newbies. It seems a bit of a bold claim that you know the full RFCXML vocabulary, the= details of how to use all the tools and all the content guidelines.=20 >=20 > I think, as a newbie, I'd be overwhelmed by the number of links I think th= at > I might care about, and I'd decide not to bother. The IETF is too hard. The initial =E2=80=98release=E2=80=99 of this site reuses all of the existin= g content, which is all fairly detailed. We could certainly do with more con= tent for newbies.=20 >=20 >> This site is intended solely for I-D authors and so does not contain the f= ollowing content: >=20 >> - Details of the standards process >> - Documentation on the AUTH48 review and subsequent publication process >> as those are processes for RFCs not I-Ds. This remains on >> rfc-editor.org >=20 > Yes, there is a diagram that sure looks like it contains details of the > process. Sorry that comment=E2=80=99s too cryptic for me to parse.=20 Thanks again Jay --=20 Jay Daley=20 IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > --=20 > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networ= ks [=20 > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architec= t [=20 > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 > =20 From nobody Fri Dec 17 15:46:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 082513A0CA0 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:46:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0X3Qt_SViKNV for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A972B3A0C6E for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9770D492AD13; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:46:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BKwL1vIVMfap; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5B48A492ACC5; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:46:40 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-D463CF88-A29B-4D37-BA70-BE91E9164C99 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 12:46:35 +1300 Message-Id: <1CB9E21D-2FAA-4CDA-BAFE-8FABD02E9E2C@ietf.org> References: Cc: Michael Richardson , Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: To: Eric Rescorla X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19B74) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] authors.ietf.org now ready for community review X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 23:46:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail-D463CF88-A29B-4D37-BA70-BE91E9164C99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 18/12/2021, at 11:14 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > I share some of MCR's concerns here. >=20 > I think the underlying problem is that this feels like a reference > manual. Those of course have their place, but what's really needed is > an opinionated quickstart guide that tells people how to make > progress. >=20 > As a concrete example, when I go to "Drafting in XML" it tells me a > bunch of stuff about how to edit the document, but I need to go to > "Rendering and Converting" to learn how to actually make the document. > IMO a better approach would be a step-by-step guide to (for instance) > use markdown. >=20 > It would go like this. >=20 > 1. First clone internet-draft-template > 2. Rename your draft > 3. Setup the repository with make setup (or whatever) > 4. Now build the draft > 5. Submit (e.g., using https://github.com/martinthomson/i-d-template/blob/= main/doc/SUBMITTING.md#github-release) >=20 > As an example of what I'm talking about, here's the tutorial for > ExpressJS, which starts from nothing, goes through Hello World, > etc. >=20 > https://expressjs.com/en/starter/installing.html >=20 > Once people have the basics, we can teach them what Emacs plugin > to use with XML or whatever.... >=20 > -Ekr Thanks and I fully agree. The RPC have also suggested this. It=E2=80=99s str= aightforward to add.=20 One question though is just how opinionated? Do we provide one single one o= r one for XML and one for Markdown, one for with GitHub and one for without?= Thanks again Jay --=20 Jay Daley=20 IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 1:50 PM Michael Richardson wrote: >>=20 >> Jay Daley wrote: >> > At the end of 2020/start of 2021, the analysis of the survey of I-D= >> > authors recommended a new central resource site for I-D authors >> > bringing together the documentation that is currently in multiple h= ard >> > to find places, and we were given notice that the servers running >> > tools.ietf.org would be turned off. Consequently, work began in 20= 21 >> > on a new site intended to be both that central resource and the new= >> > home for the documentation on tools.ietf.org. This site is now read= y >> > for community review at http://authors.ietf.org >>=20 >> The layout is so bad (two left-hand bars) that I really can't see past th= at >> to the content. Sorry to be so critical here. >>=20 >> > - Put that information into a structure that works equally well for= >> > novices, occasional authors and experts. >>=20 >> As a seasoned person, I can't really find anything relevant, because it s= eems >> to be aimed at newbies. >>=20 >> I think, as a newbie, I'd be overwhelmed by the number of links I think t= hat >> I might care about, and I'd decide not to bother. The IETF is too hard. >>=20 >> > This site is intended solely for I-D authors and so does not contai= n the following content: >>=20 >> > - Details of the standards process >> > - Documentation on the AUTH48 review and subsequent publication pro= cess >> > as those are processes for RFCs not I-Ds. This remains on >> > rfc-editor.org >>=20 >> Yes, there is a diagram that sure looks like it contains details of the >> process. >>=20 >> --=20 >> ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh netwo= rks [=20 >> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network archite= ct [=20 >> ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails= [=20 >>=20 >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li= stinfo/tools-discuss --Apple-Mail-D463CF88-A29B-4D37-BA70-BE91E9164C99 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 18/12/2021, at 11:14 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:=

=EF=BB= =BF
I share some of MCR's concerns here.

I think the u= nderlying problem is that this feels like a reference
manual. Those of co= urse have their place, but what's really needed is
an opinionated quickst= art guide that tells people how to make
progress.

As a concrete ex= ample, when I go to "Drafting in XML" it tells me a
bunch of stuff about h= ow to edit the document, but I need to go to
"Rendering and Converting" t= o learn how to actually make the document.
IMO a better approach would be= a step-by-step guide to (for instance)
use markdown.

It would go l= ike this.

1. First clone internet-draft-template
2. Rename your dr= aft
3. Setup the repository with make setup (or whatever)
4. Now build= the draft
5. Submit (e.g., using https://github= .com/martinthomson/i-d-template/blob/main/doc/SUBMITTING.md#github-release)

As an example of what I'm talking about, here's the tutorial for<= br>ExpressJS, which starts from nothing, goes through Hello World,
etc.
https://e= xpressjs.com/en/starter/installing.html

Once people have the basi= cs, we can teach them what Emacs plugin
to use with XML or whatever....
-Ekr

Thanks and I fully agr= ee. The RPC have also suggested this. It=E2=80=99s straightforward to add.&n= bsp;

One question though is just how opinionated?  D= o we provide one single one or one for XML and one for Markdown, one for wit= h GitHub and one for without?

Thanks again
Jay

-- 
Jay Daley 
IETF E= xecutive Director
exec-director@ietf.org

        &= nbsp;      



=
On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 1:50 PM Michae= l Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

Jay Daley <ex= ec-director@ietf.org> wrote:
    > At the end of 2020/start of 2021, the analysis of the sur= vey of I-D
    > authors recommended a new central resource site for I-D a= uthors
    > bringing together the documentation that is currently in m= ultiple hard
    > to find places, and we were given notice that the servers= running
    > tools.ietf.org would be turned off.  Consequently, wo= rk began in 2021
    > on a new site intended to be both that central resource a= nd the new
    > home for the documentation on tools.ietf.org. This site is= now ready
    > for community review at http://authors.ietf.org

The layout is so bad (two left-hand bars) that I really can't see past that<= br> to the content.  Sorry to be so critical here.

    > - Put that information into a structure that works equall= y well for
    > novices, occasional authors and experts.

As a seasoned person, I can't really find anything relevant, because it seem= s
to be aimed at newbies.

I think, as a newbie, I'd be overwhelmed by the number of links I think that=
I might care about, and I'd decide not to bother. The IETF is too hard.

    > This site is intended solely for I-D authors and so does n= ot contain the following content:

    > - Details of the standards process
    > - Documentation on the AUTH48 review and subsequent publi= cation process
    > as those are processes for RFCs not I-Ds.  This rema= ins on
    > rfc-editor.org

Yes, there is a diagram that sure looks like it contains details of the
process.

--
]               Never tell me the od= ds!                 | ipv6 mesh= networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works    &nbs= p;   | network architect  [
]     m= cr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/      &nb= sp; |   ruby on rails    [

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://w= ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
= --Apple-Mail-D463CF88-A29B-4D37-BA70-BE91E9164C99-- From nobody Fri Dec 17 15:49:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 768453A0AE8 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:49:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kt5v1zMGDe3F for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:49:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE66D3A0CA9 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:49:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id y16so5201244ioc.8 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:49:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kpOTmWDcIAmF2GGAdp4bFd5K+I5yDKqeDdmuwDXEtcs=; b=AcO6RE9CyvJoAsEc6DxJnwo8cXRoOnXRLFY2ky826a/Mh01nxqsqTB+60mPeHLXT3l Q8ERs5bSUdIKdwJ0vtMjgg5cANix0/DY1BiOjn8gzvjE80/RBqcFZqYZia/yWeJx4UsE diat4oOd6N3+L4jXVW1RgWMG3U6J9GWpMCvjyX4aY2A0NpICcfBZqG3YgZUqWnw98inu 2NWOp43ou8CLWQomTHnpn54kCBw0JwDLu8SUm4LVdNvWFPT7UrGoLMOci5Nzro+Fz7lm fHs5zG6qiShUyx2oa+MIwAz5HE6fqes6/EqnBVt8cJIwuIUvGtdsdGqfpH1NcQnkmyKW SVvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kpOTmWDcIAmF2GGAdp4bFd5K+I5yDKqeDdmuwDXEtcs=; b=br4mqhKWpMUqmG661qHt/iMk+6NMFmK5vaoa+y89jZ+eX5eTnVlv0P7Xh2t/G6k4ij Y46VbRWPPhGpat5azFYGp9SENPfDgONWteaaQtGpZAOLq+hzQx62nikR83B5ho70rrDY w9ba1eSaBvzAz5bSqnVyEdaoov6IfGpLM903Lb+tvYoIDDWqushESqPLuJfrkrY72IxM S7gCXbu8LQmw9+sQOJtwyGs1SqBfBnXHwZI2I8IkG/l0+WcWxVAj+Q4Iojn1H/ftv3Y4 IlCMpEkZnIWtuCFyKYS9JgXNrVyx3uM1s7ALS/DTlSd87Aa+pABDnDajRKsmN9nzZ7Wa e7xQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533fmV7jt6mk16I0U/KFw5xxC1GO2I5D1l7mkyY/S4L8yN4odYoq 5e5GBaqq6PbM+uFjNEdKDm73dQ2I+gwCMSb77bkFZQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzzVycMQAI+tctTGWIlfkRL09RoeUrBaesYR/OmInpoYNj4fG7N4RpAhJD6YSSflgGidWLmg5smpj0Q0FnCNT8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:3409:: with SMTP id n9mr3018851ioz.148.1639784978816; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:49:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1CB9E21D-2FAA-4CDA-BAFE-8FABD02E9E2C@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <1CB9E21D-2FAA-4CDA-BAFE-8FABD02E9E2C@ietf.org> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 15:49:03 -0800 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: Michael Richardson , Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002bb9cc05d3603135" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] authors.ietf.org now ready for community review X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 23:49:47 -0000 --0000000000002bb9cc05d3603135 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 3:46 PM Jay Daley wrote: > > > On 18/12/2021, at 11:14 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > I share some of MCR's concerns here. > > I think the underlying problem is that this feels like a reference > manual. Those of course have their place, but what's really needed is > an opinionated quickstart guide that tells people how to make > progress. > > As a concrete example, when I go to "Drafting in XML" it tells me a > bunch of stuff about how to edit the document, but I need to go to > "Rendering and Converting" to learn how to actually make the document. > IMO a better approach would be a step-by-step guide to (for instance) > use markdown. > > It would go like this. > > 1. First clone internet-draft-template > 2. Rename your draft > 3. Setup the repository with make setup (or whatever) > 4. Now build the draft > 5. Submit (e.g., using > https://github.com/martinthomson/i-d-template/blob/main/doc/SUBMITTING.md= #github-release > ) > > As an example of what I'm talking about, here's the tutorial for > ExpressJS, which starts from nothing, goes through Hello World, > etc. > > https://expressjs.com/en/starter/installing.html > > Once people have the basics, we can teach them what Emacs plugin > to use with XML or whatever.... > > -Ekr > > > Thanks and I fully agree. The RPC have also suggested this. It=E2=80=99s > straightforward to add. > > One question though is just how opinionated? Do we provide one single on= e > or one for XML and one for Markdown, one for with GitHub and one for > without? > I would think one with XML and one with Markdown and a separate one for how to use MT's ID tools, which means Github. -Ekr > Thanks again > Jay > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 1:50 PM Michael Richardson > wrote: > >> >> Jay Daley wrote: >> > At the end of 2020/start of 2021, the analysis of the survey of I-= D >> > authors recommended a new central resource site for I-D authors >> > bringing together the documentation that is currently in multiple >> hard >> > to find places, and we were given notice that the servers running >> > tools.ietf.org would be turned off. Consequently, work began in >> 2021 >> > on a new site intended to be both that central resource and the ne= w >> > home for the documentation on tools.ietf.org. This site is now >> ready >> > for community review at http://authors.ietf.org >> >> The layout is so bad (two left-hand bars) that I really can't see past >> that >> to the content. Sorry to be so critical here. >> >> > - Put that information into a structure that works equally well fo= r >> > novices, occasional authors and experts. >> >> As a seasoned person, I can't really find anything relevant, because it >> seems >> to be aimed at newbies. >> >> I think, as a newbie, I'd be overwhelmed by the number of links I think >> that >> I might care about, and I'd decide not to bother. The IETF is too hard. >> >> > This site is intended solely for I-D authors and so does not >> contain the following content: >> >> > - Details of the standards process >> > - Documentation on the AUTH48 review and subsequent publication >> process >> > as those are processes for RFCs not I-Ds. This remains on >> > rfc-editor.org >> >> Yes, there is a diagram that sure looks like it contains details of the >> process. >> >> -- >> ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh >> networks [ >> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network >> architect [ >> ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on >> rails [ >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> > --0000000000002bb9cc05d3603135 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 3:46 PM Jay D= aley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:


=EF=BB=BF
I share some o= f MCR's concerns here.

I think the underlying problem is that th= is feels like a reference
manual. Those of course have their place, but = what's really needed is
an opinionated quickstart guide that tells p= eople how to make
progress.

As a concrete example, when I go to &= quot;Drafting in XML" it tells me a
bunch of stuff about how to edi= t the document, but I need to go to
"Rendering and Converting"= to learn how to actually make the document.
IMO a better approach would= be a step-by-step guide to (for instance)
use markdown.

It would= go like this.

1. First clone internet-draft-template
2. Rename y= our draft
3. Setup the repository with make setup (or whatever)
4. No= w build the draft
5. Submit (e.g., using https://github.com/martinthomson/i-d-template/blob/main/doc/SU= BMITTING.md#github-release)

As an example of what I'm talkin= g about, here's the tutorial for
ExpressJS, which starts from nothin= g, goes through Hello World,
etc.

https://expressjs.com/en/st= arter/installing.html

Once people have the basics, we can teach = them what Emacs plugin
to use with XML or whatever....

-Ekr

Thanks and I fully agree. The RPC hav= e also suggested this. It=E2=80=99s straightforward to add.=C2=A0

<= /div>
One question though is just how opinionated?=C2=A0 Do we provide = one single one or one for XML and one for Markdown, one for with GitHub and= one for without?

I would think= one with XML and one with Markdown and a separate one for how to use MT= 9;s ID tools, which means Github.

-Ekr


Thanks again
Jay

--=C2=A0
Jay Daley=C2=A0
IETF Executive Director
<= a href=3D"mailto:exec-director@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">exec-director@ie= tf.org

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0


On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 1:50 PM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>= ; wrote:

Jay Daley <e= xec-director@ietf.org> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > At the end of 2020/start of 2021, the analysis of the su= rvey of I-D
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > authors recommended a new central resource site for I-D = authors
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > bringing together the documentation that is currently in= multiple hard
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to find places, and we were given notice that the server= s running
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > tools.ietf.org would be turned off.=C2=A0 Consequently, = work began in 2021
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > on a new site intended to be both that central resource = and the new
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > home for the documentation on tools.ietf.org. This site = is now ready
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > for community review at http://authors.ietf.org

The layout is so bad (two left-hand bars) that I really can't see past = that
to the content.=C2=A0 Sorry to be so critical here.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > - Put that information into a structure that works equal= ly well for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > novices, occasional authors and experts.

As a seasoned person, I can't really find anything relevant, because it= seems
to be aimed at newbies.

I think, as a newbie, I'd be overwhelmed by the number of links I think= that
I might care about, and I'd decide not to bother. The IETF is too hard.=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > This site is intended solely for I-D authors and so does= not contain the following content:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > - Details of the standards process
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > - Documentation on the AUTH48 review and subsequent publ= ication process
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > as those are processes for RFCs not I-Ds.=C2=A0 This rem= ains on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > rfc-editor.org

Yes, there is a diagram that sure looks like it contains details of the
process.

--
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Never tell me the o= dds!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| ipv6 me= sh networks [
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 | network architect=C2=A0 [
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= mcr@sandelman.ca=C2=A0 http://www.sandelman.ca/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0ruby on rails=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--0000000000002bb9cc05d3603135-- From nobody Sun Dec 19 10:05:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B8113A0F3D; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 10:05:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sandelman.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18FJr7dRoWYM; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 10:05:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 735C73A0F35; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 10:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F3239249; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 68lsFWvoPTOF; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:09:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C6D739243; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:09:41 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sandelman.ca; s=mail; t=1639937381; bh=jd39GFrjZEwSNvy9BMqpTrc6SbA9vg2xjdAzoLEallk=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=2E2vncR08NRuCUN0s8LegGlV0IWnH25uqEbBbwI9iAb0bHumzOocdWN9/jQhDPKND Q1kGP1jJAMSUaInO+ilIaq/2JlcrO93304RuYccX4eQvSdNE7pqpSRCeUMmnLYAXV/ PleT/DyeDZjkximgc6YaGme2Krv3Awwv8uuGZx+Sdxqc0dhHU5adj6HGuLPFGbCZEN J67/05q8zdZSudkoIc1v1VSHEIx4SBWfNxblw3yqxfBDF/PIjVc9T1A7OvBBGd6PvR LkOX1uGCC2cYuHU0uD9fxq8brLCz4IRLf/vsBoUGmmz7bJjQHzn17b7/t36ZMzvekk 8MopYTNQuVddA== Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5137C6C; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:05:15 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Eric Rescorla , Jay Daley , Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <1CB9E21D-2FAA-4CDA-BAFE-8FABD02E9E2C@ietf.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] authors.ietf.org now ready for community review X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 18:05:25 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Eric Rescorla wrote: >> One question though is just how opinionated? Do we provide one single one >> or one for XML and one for Markdown, one for with GitHub and one for >> without? > I would think one with XML and one with Markdown and a separate one for how > to use MT's ID tools, which means Github. I agree. It should say something like: "The IETF uses XML as the authoritative form for internet drafts and RFCs" There are _many ways_ to generate the XML. The recommended way for those who want to collaborate is with _kramdown_ format using _github. The least effort is... " --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmG/dFoACgkQgItw+93Q 3WX0PwgAnxPQaOducZ2f2Gg1h/pw2vG4lPjgCcolvTmwWusKc8gd1DPJ5+0yaZJI KN5NWNJs4qJk29lalWjT8+BKFKyZOMqpuLGqVUxyYHnZ7auds9ltPDGVGg4yAsjB phHOw5qezBwWv24KzLw84LRgE4uJFZYdjxb3AwlFZG6gqXdTkKB1HrejYFdSrPMD TzUDHlh8tuTVQdEv0AMj/k4TrgceI2a/HB9bcKiC61apSpOpuHQvG+e4g2DU/nun jRQtftmkQ1+iUrso6dOGhbiDqnf7wVfuXaKk7B9QPO4v7v+lxgOchEV8YqYSzcMf 5s0ubXkDtZd9Eia3DPQAzzENLx3pUQ== =4FP6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Dec 19 10:12:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B7333A0FC6; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 10:12:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sandelman.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s49Fj-6z8Q2s; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 10:12:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE7D63A0FC3; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 10:12:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AC883924C; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:16:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Q7VliPfj0nxM; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:16:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B613924B; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:16:43 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sandelman.ca; s=mail; t=1639937803; bh=lSB6V/xLkIgaKeabPMooHF9xomeHsU6GcSF0igPC3tY=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=Q8CK6TmlwFj+P8WKowVsCvZC5ZOUyzjEx1k0vkoiA1qGTRRSG9XhOH3Z+tyFforqe V0AFeX/DTnfI22/MU/pQ3AAIACez4G0pIdmFG19R4oLddTezmNy5WKyDvU7B1WgnNe NmP5bR9scQh0zZNkx672O195lNvVWUZj6vBVbnQ23zblWUdbF+8V588WiNhxxowl9N lzx9Xp5fIaZsxul9uvIZ/vrScJEGOecIJp9LCZccDxdA0b4PA3b4a0KSP4DXJWq4lu 36EoOp/w9eBIhTtEWLAYJIu9FC/5sz+5bKTd/L7Pmtu362pWxBg03Bn7PEA7ZKZuCh 6GnHOSkeLw2Ew== Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6BA6C; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:12:17 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Jay Daley , Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: <4DAFF3E3-9645-4ACC-8699-E714C8526580@ietf.org> References: <74671.1639777842@dooku> <4DAFF3E3-9645-4ACC-8699-E714C8526580@ietf.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] authors.ietf.org now ready for community review X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 18:12:28 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jay Daley wrote: >>> - Put that information into a structure that works equally well for >>> novices, occasional authors and experts. >> >> As a seasoned person, I can't really find anything relevant, because= it seems >> to be aimed at newbies. > It seems a bit of a bold claim that you know the full RFCXML > vocabulary, the details of how to use all the tools and all the conte= nt > guidelines. Do I need to know the full RFCXML vocabulary? I'm certain I don't know it. (I question if it is even knowable given the disconnect between xml2rfc code and RFCs..., but that's a different discussion) Do newbies need to know? I don't think so. As a seasoned person I probably need search access to (open and closed) bug reports on xml2rfc, so that I can determine if the problem that has taken me to the site has already been reported/solved. I probably want to search release notes as well. >> I think, as a newbie, I'd be overwhelmed by the number of links I th= ink that >> I might care about, and I'd decide not to bother. The IETF is too ha= rd. > The initial =E2=80=98release=E2=80=99 of this site reuses all of the = existing content, > which is all fairly detailed. We could certainly do with more content > for newbies. I think that the site needs to welcome newbies without distracting or overwhelming them. Right now, it overwhelms them, yet does nothing to really help me. >>> - Documentation on the AUTH48 review and subsequent publication pro= cess >>> as those are processes for RFCs not I-Ds. This remains on >>> rfc-editor.org >> >> Yes, there is a diagram that sure looks like it contains details of = the >> process. > Sorry that comment=E2=80=99s too cryptic for me to parse. Here is a screen capture: http://www.sandelman.ca/tmp/mcrcapture/9376.2021-12-19/capture1.png To a newbie, this looks like an overview of the RFC editing process, as it ends with "RFC Publication". Of course, those of us who know the process know that this is just about the editing formats: there are no spots here for WG Adoption, WGLC, IESG, AUTH48, etc. But newbies won't know that. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmG/dgEACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUWiwf+JKGF5dBu8m01QPFXIMXU1TpTDPDitq3q6cgcS3h2oQAizNYulYp1ArrX Ot+PiqcnAh9VQKMCTlnx4b7WmMKolQaBqKOK8ATr17Yu7vOTU5dwIO6jjehDLTc+ nVGwnoHuJih5UU9mlncnmqW9p10LJQ3ID15gWpowFL8InuPnBOdyyTzlI1XSK8Y/ +8fDdJtjGxE8OhcAN5w10TK6M489helI02lZVV8ZHebK+3q5cWlgC6u6/dPTaMGC TUj25+JfF9EmlyRmwDWqCl9Dwdx0ApDD7QNFYuOKpZA0AaiuakTMiLTcVZWZPkIR ikedGHcb7Sl99g0ihtndA9VNeIED4w== =cEDg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Dec 19 12:21:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030F33A0406 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 12:21:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.85 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=oa62urLk; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=X6WgZ8uv Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xwfhEXubQLcT for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 12:21:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B2FD3A0403 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 12:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 77072 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2021 20:21:09 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=12d0b.61bf9435.k2112; bh=WvWVBkhcU8WoEVazgXgHbuUKsP8HYp/OAIrOgTa8z74=; b=oa62urLkeH30U9jInEFN091N4q1jL73cGzdjvQ6+fRcbz2+hH4nEph0av+7cnsMf3dEioFuwMTg2rC3Dh/GT/ZtBxPfVfI+be4w911rZDvs7F5TQi+F8zmTarHqyvDeean+5bZfk+4pA8H6slFpsG3F+MvsnWu6EpjPSuuKYE3DP5M+esCBz8YQxgxRjqSJGbl5swUfEyoDS7ji1GlBAyFHSqldGxrHizhgHcOVKbgIzj/gVxXcg5J8TNSb3SfLylLA6xrDYLpm6A8W7S18UCe1Xa8eBXffpt5QLNJXbMprI+fxt77Vsa3fOaAEGLpUuLupbyT5RQdQhMVSOA7PLEw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=12d0b.61bf9435.k2112; bh=WvWVBkhcU8WoEVazgXgHbuUKsP8HYp/OAIrOgTa8z74=; b=X6WgZ8uvzNrVpTqjvf3Hi4T00WlKEteIR2XSYC+eqo6vzVuAWzRsQnKJk1hf5v+Z2sv6/DgDtQ0GXxVixAKoOAM29IAqL3VhbiBUFQvCFslcmNFsf75EpSQKOGdCtn3AHZP0ApVSHc8PkTCdmMnhMdJ+LPvKp2p9z62I9PwgGNgSEZTMmjkQTj05e0dDmjYOmiizPETODRvy8EJc4LKNIOG4gBCQl7jr1PvJhBC485pWFdpInWRP3SFiGBCZHmzX8ttvViJVpJnrCVx4trWfzUonoOZ723wXDh3T5KPmgqOTsNOsFJr58siKp/6q/jOibe/7Q5KO17HIHTzsF25AgQ== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 19 Dec 2021 20:21:09 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id B7060339F473; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 15:21:07 -0500 (EST) Date: 19 Dec 2021 15:21:07 -0500 Message-Id: <20211219202108.B7060339F473@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Cc: mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca In-Reply-To: <17711.1639937537@localhost> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] authors.ietf.org now ready for community review X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 20:21:19 -0000 It appears that Michael Richardson said: >-=-=-=-=-=- > > >Jay Daley wrote: > >>> - Put that information into a structure that works equally well for > >>> novices, occasional authors and experts. > >> > >> As a seasoned person, I can't really find anything relevant, because it seems > >> to be aimed at newbies. > > > It seems a bit of a bold claim that you know the full RFCXML > > vocabulary, the details of how to use all the tools and all the content > > guidelines. > >Do I need to know the full RFCXML vocabulary? I'm certain I don't know it. >(I question if it is even knowable given the disconnect between xml2rfc code >and RFCs..., but that's a different discussion) The current grammar is a deep secret, known only to the elite few who have typed $ xml2rfc --docfile and looked at the documentation, or who have looked at the github archive of grammar files: https://github.com/rfc-format/v3grammar FYI, the grammar hasn't changed since xml2rfc 3.0 over a year ago. I expect one more minor update to clean up some loose ends. I doubt that anyone knows the full grammar from memory. Much of it is only of occastional use. We certainly don't need to throw it at new authors. R's, John From nobody Tue Dec 28 16:06:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68FB13A07E6 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:06:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vbezw81pPWuw for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:06:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DBF63A07E2 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:06:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id s6so15306336ioj.0 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:06:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=6FZEZBQTJxMpVj+37+PsqzPqAfmfTp8xwOtbyDvUArk=; b=mNV8bRlbDC402h3Tw6uDnElme0KiYkOiCgLpQYcqXrJCDjcBcIL8hmwrjJX2rqN9LG kAX+X3ZL8Xh6N4HzMbYdkqXUZPScQuPLKv0Wmo13RGN2laus7JPlnjXjGpcDT7tQ9qUt /ukvF7UvetekJG+BdAN0X2i2bAuakd+Bz70Hx4oFOXRoTmt17Izu2cS0qrTqrvUSccvC EN0GZhW/ZEQ++udcidUZixAeLSBehuwXic93pWPeKROrUXykRxelMEYdP4jg9zMp3dap 2aOYkJ1RHDNzip66x6FqAZxUhChoLZlYZDgTc44KnQh3GB8WCpSr1gDH1PetIvK00LV/ zYJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=6FZEZBQTJxMpVj+37+PsqzPqAfmfTp8xwOtbyDvUArk=; b=G6Qnfx/ziDMkfMGSNxZLjTUPjYOO2e3Bk67BX4RgZ8rdx56xkQPreJ54pOr49zJN9V hxvI1Wvs0s5Mm0r0nK+7yQO1+SW6VA/HR5wL6X84VBG05XUCfr8ZTdjo84n5bvm9JM7R UiXRND8uN6io3KLP0FjsicNYFVEoqlsr8kZMJi6/zEcFbbHom3YOhUf6co9nkjXep+vA BGIcvTAXnWnfQP7AvF2ScAAOD6m3384P2VkhMBJn7TTiWVtEbJ/AYJqmRwryGI1/dIvQ 7Ay4Hz2HUQRvdFI4J4dpRMp8gWpjZWbhPjaIlW4xo6nlH5vubs8hu2HcEHicfwtOTO8n xbRA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532q2Q/cjPc9N4vr+mBQWbPQN5mPbf2CmY4Z+ryQrsW4pWDdPvfo 1hC+wsnFzPmC2zNjKpGIlV30k2VOBBceYOBh1Pbmi7a1nM8wKg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyipymDMNmvrO8ASJvStJqOFlPLp5xfmhyF78Xol/6FPRs7v0u2OhLVx98B1dv7Q3Epaexclasng8mRPikhwpg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:1695:: with SMTP id s21mr10629275iow.149.1640736392131; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:06:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:05:56 -0800 Message-ID: To: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d2cc3205d43db5e4" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Change datatracker landing page to be RFC? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 00:06:41 -0000 --000000000000d2cc3205d43db5e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi folks, I'm sure you've noticed that when you search with the datatracker, the landing page is not the RFC/I-D itself but rather the datatracker info page, like so: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/ It seems to me that the majority of people who are trying to find drafts/RFCs don't want this metadata but rather want the document itself (especially for RFCs, where it's not like there is much activity.) What would people think of having that be the default, or at least having two links on the search page, one for the doc and one for the metadata? -Ekr --000000000000d2cc3205d43db5e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi folks,

I'm sure you&#= 39;ve noticed that when you search with the datatracker, the landing page i= s not the RFC/I-D itself but rather the datatracker info page, like so:


It = seems to me that the majority of people who are trying to find drafts/RFCs = don't want this metadata but rather want the document itself (especiall= y for RFCs, where it's not like there is much activity.) What would peo= ple think of having that be the default, or at least having two links on th= e search page, one for the doc and one for the metadata?

=
-Ekr


--000000000000d2cc3205d43db5e4-- From nobody Tue Dec 28 16:21:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B25913A0857 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:21:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t20cVUOvroNa for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:21:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x733.google.com (mail-qk1-x733.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::733]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 001813A081F for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:21:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x733.google.com with SMTP id r139so17640515qke.9 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:21:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=80AT1UFahSTR69A9N3CdHOrLsizOsjHKAinbFGexdos=; b=UhycTJtxznwiKHc86W0nAG7ddNIkXoBapxRGpejygknpoF8JGKpuANlV+eIYIUhSnd bmqPvRKPIi+cl3UeGInBsa2CEftMWzjh9adamL+KW5IzyIzKM3WU7cb20/QU37bv0wF6 7M6TNRc91sc8ulreLtXh1FmU8n4CsmlRx7PUDXJAWREaRxA9PR7LeChc6HHCbVoiqyCt zHnwQJpGB2Awy3AyYr3OEzZh0vVObpCSZI45aEOjg5mJH5hlnqZOQvAngzLAWcB8+sfd qNc4QY84Q0E/ROG/ycaqvl/a+xypayTTUe0oacEt43GkAbrRSvnQOzMqe9MXjWwib6hm NhFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=80AT1UFahSTR69A9N3CdHOrLsizOsjHKAinbFGexdos=; b=tWT7ekGSbTF+A9NPLIMcr5PvhmRr88Ju2EJnMT3cwq01NLMQbNI7usI7hzOGD1sPkT 7Ly0/jfK5HLHUNRofNITpHCgjv7mzjgQyxarsGEKg1iG78hnH0sygOLTjjly2igH2NAa 103vkGgH0+78UqwSykPgMflXkdAFL6S/2UOxVM96IFVggwbZlOM5rVsqSLiiZ6rgnduj +FfgNfEOSi7XER9l39xmxHXAWhi4+68GEqBLHWcb5Y+J1wEBV8W+INpcGN6IhRvfD6S3 2uq0lNVNkx0NrY24yYyOlfPssZ1rqObNPXdKnHehHfTOQr6jDL4IlusMK1EK0C5+evJl PhTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533LWf8OGkjQkYm3IHoFIKbW9mgx27jkn4z7jRMFgfp7JP1pdDT8 82rUeqG7mseDmCVM2grj7u/YkovxE9o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyL4cZfP8YIY94O0z6WxbI5QpgLDt7FwuG5f8IYCbtbrwuKGEzg3Qa+xzqeYeBqe7tDD8wPVw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:13d1:: with SMTP id g17mr17036611qkl.663.1640737285116; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (184-15-191-206.dsl2.chtn.wv.frontiernet.net. [184.15.191.206]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bs16sm17191148qkb.45.2021.12.28.16.21.24 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:21:24 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-48A75B21-8C6C-4BEB-BC51-2A9EA78B619D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: tjw ietf Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:21:23 -0500 Message-Id: References: Cc: tools-discuss In-Reply-To: To: Eric Rescorla X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19C56) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Change datatracker landing page to be RFC? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 00:21:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail-48A75B21-8C6C-4BEB-BC51-2A9EA78B619D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What about when you search expired rfc? The info page makes a wee bit more s= ense.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 28, 2021, at 19:06, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Hi folks, >=20 > I'm sure you've noticed that when you search with the datatracker, the lan= ding page is not the RFC/I-D itself but rather the datatracker info page, li= ke so: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/ >=20 > It seems to me that the majority of people who are trying to find drafts/R= FCs don't want this metadata but rather want the document itself (especially= for RFCs, where it's not like there is much activity.) What would people th= ink of having that be the default, or at least having two links on the searc= h page, one for the doc and one for the metadata? >=20 > -Ekr >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org= > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/tools-discuss --Apple-Mail-48A75B21-8C6C-4BEB-BC51-2A9EA78B619D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What about when you search expired rfc? &nb= sp;The info page makes a wee bit more sense. 

S= ent from my iPhone

On De= c 28, 2021, at 19:06, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Hi folks,

I'm sure you've noticed that w= hen you search with the datatracker, the landing page is not the RFC/I-D its= elf but rather the datatracker info page, like so:


It seems to me that the maj= ority of people who are trying to find drafts/RFCs don't want this metadata b= ut rather want the document itself (especially for RFCs, where it's not like= there is much activity.) What would people think of having that be the defa= ult, or at least having two links on the search page, one for the doc and on= e for the metadata?

-Ekr


___________________________________________________________
= Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
Th= is list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@iet= f.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.= org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.o= rg
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
= --Apple-Mail-48A75B21-8C6C-4BEB-BC51-2A9EA78B619D-- From nobody Tue Dec 28 16:29:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069153A0839 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:29:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qkjLw68B_CGU for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B587C3A0834 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id y11so19019572iod.6 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:29:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bqCYeRWn1RekGrbRt2cNcA29kc2ACVZ0VjC/bMax8wE=; b=fG8K3HGEjlLsjVcq2KanCxjcLEjIqVuCPSvW7kScV4KX6TpKFAjMPr1qn+AsIhVGgB g6BD0O95jbyWHum/YwH5vo6mNxB+QPerYt+/nuw5t4ed0E+JBTXBlmthsSg77/K67ufX FIU1clExjgBU4StezmR8JgkvmzKGaalECQy4Si5yGZHEM+6JxQtm/sX11NiTFRoaqsRq HdpJeo/El+5jLybqLhKwbZTDNZ8Ff1pmAqBcnpTPDlvfVdv45vfH6iKXsOVM3sQxoDFd pS3W5ohXMawDUc7JWy7/ALP26C56Sqymtg1bpMMDQSrL6EQ1vLX8ekLyRMIN/r9oE/qz /gng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bqCYeRWn1RekGrbRt2cNcA29kc2ACVZ0VjC/bMax8wE=; b=fx+FA+lA/hOFJboNWcNYvnkt/a/HhCI9SYhEjHn4W3+hkM2NV7FtIRq8tY73Qg81cX AobT4c/Vq7m1ZaUnyD/Jrm4GKKW4q7G4kkjV1vnjBHPrmWvsPW/Iy48uIl0YuiItk8yw Q2NEAt6RDgOdM4yNWfjQpuUaQkPyvKaTSdfOaVneq5GDNRR/xF+N4uvsRlE9MSHhMVTj X6Z7JuUigQUDE/EwcV2YdO15SEUfn5EjloPYARknWAFJlQK5eVONx/sWNAgh8M4ZFsrW dfnm78/+INreVn8rgIU6JCZAWfifuw1sx6O4n/kne7oWrwNGhgMOxNyv0LHfQAEo5kWK O96w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530HFYSbTw0aGDzi9b9THppja2olZbs216TrP+D8+DL2S+8cIYlc vvv/WRI9d5jaW1x7NlWkP6dy5gGZFuC6oJZqcNTcNdBQpscLGQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwFv74QB/vbGCgr7G96bsgFdh4eNfpdEA1Z/aqmZkvDtPx+Y7GCg6+6JpLYu9SVP1HjjpikLKKjt3t1WkrEhSc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:d87:: with SMTP id l7mr10402853jaj.111.1640737753317; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:29:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:28:37 -0800 Message-ID: To: tjw ietf Cc: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f4dbe105d43e062f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Change datatracker landing page to be RFC? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 00:29:20 -0000 --000000000000f4dbe105d43e062f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:21 PM tjw ietf wrote: > What about when you search expired rfc? The info page makes a wee bit > more sense. > Well, RFCs don't expire, so this particular case seems like a non-issue. Perhaps you mean I-Ds? In any case, my answer is the same: show the document, and if you like show a banner with its status, which in fact is more or less what we do if you finally click your way there: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04 Given that this is HTML, we could even show some giant "expired" overlay if people insist, like so. Note that you already have to go to some effort to get the DT to even show you expired drafts, so I don't think people are going to be that confused. My basic thesis is that the vast majority of people want to read the document, not look at the metadata, so why are we making them go to a lot more work. -Ekr > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 28, 2021, at 19:06, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > Hi folks, > > I'm sure you've noticed that when you search with the datatracker, the > landing page is not the RFC/I-D itself but rather the datatracker info > page, like so: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/ > > It seems to me that the majority of people who are trying to find > drafts/RFCs don't want this metadata but rather want the document itself > (especially for RFCs, where it's not like there is much activity.) What > would people think of having that be the default, or at least having two > links on the search page, one for the doc and one for the metadata? > > -Ekr > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > --000000000000f4dbe105d43e062f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:21 PM tjw i= etf <tjw.ietf@gmail.com> wr= ote:
What about when you search expired rfc?=C2=A0 The info page makes a = wee bit more sense.=C2=A0

Well, R= FCs don't expire, so this particular case seems like a non-issue. Perha= ps you mean I-Ds?
In any case, my answer is the same: show the do= cument, and if you like show a banner with its status,
which in f= act is more or less what we do if you finally click your way there:



Sent from my iPhone
=
=EF=BB=BF
Hi folks,

=
I'm sure you've noticed that when you search with the datatrac= ker, the landing page is not the RFC/I-D itself but rather the datatracker = info page, like so:


It seems to me that the majority of p= eople who are trying to find drafts/RFCs don't want this metadata but r= ather want the document itself (especially for RFCs, where it's not lik= e there is much activity.) What would people think of having that be the de= fault, or at least having two links on the search page, one for the doc and= one for the metadata?

-Ekr


___________________________________________________________Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list i= s for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
*= Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org=
* Report tool= s.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other= bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Uns= ubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
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X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 00:50:58 -0000 --000000000000241f5c05d43e5479 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:28 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:21 PM tjw ietf wrote: > >> What about when you search expired rfc? The info page makes a wee bit >> more sense. >> > > Well, RFCs don't expire, so this particular case seems like a non-issue. > Perhaps you mean I-Ds? > In any case, my answer is the same: show the document, and if you like > show a banner with its status, > which in fact is more or less what we do if you finally click your way > there: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04 > > Given that this is HTML, we could even show some giant "expired" overlay > if people insist, > like so. > Or rather, like so: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/ > Note that you already have to go to some effort to get the DT to even sho= w > you expired drafts, so I don't think people are going to be that confused= . > > My basic thesis is that the vast majority of people want to read the > document, not > look at the metadata, so why are we making them go to a lot more work. > > -Ekr > > >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Dec 28, 2021, at 19:06, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BF >> Hi folks, >> >> I'm sure you've noticed that when you search with the datatracker, the >> landing page is not the RFC/I-D itself but rather the datatracker info >> page, like so: >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/ >> >> It seems to me that the majority of people who are trying to find >> drafts/RFCs don't want this metadata but rather want the document itself >> (especially for RFCs, where it's not like there is much activity.) What >> would people think of having that be the default, or at least having two >> links on the search page, one for the doc and one for the metadata? >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> --000000000000241f5c05d43e5479 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:28 PM Eric = Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:21 PM tjw ietf <tjw.ietf@gmail.com> wr= ote:
What about when you search expired rfc?=C2=A0 The info page makes a = wee bit more sense.=C2=A0

Well, R= FCs don't expire, so this particular case seems like a non-issue. Perha= ps you mean I-Ds?
In any case, my answer is the same: show the do= cument, and if you like show a banner with its status,
which in f= act is more or less what we do if you finally click your way there:


Given that this is HTML, we co= uld even show some giant "expired" overlay if people insist,
like so.

Or rather= , like so:
=C2=A0
Note that you already have to go to some effort to get the= DT to even show
you expired drafts, so I don't think people = are going to be that confused.

My basic thesis= is that the vast majority of people want to read the document, not
look at the metadata, so why are we making them go to a lot more work.

-Ekr
=C2=A0

Sent f= rom my iPhone

On Dec 28= , 2021, at 19:06, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Hi folks,<= /div>

I'm sure you've noticed that when you sear= ch with the datatracker, the landing page is not the RFC/I-D itself but rat= her the datatracker info page, like so:


It seems to me th= at the majority of people who are trying to find drafts/RFCs don't want= this metadata but rather want the document itself (especially for RFCs, wh= ere it's not like there is much activity.) What would people think of h= aving that be the default, or at least having two links on the search page,= one for the doc and one for the metadata?

-Ek= r


___________________________________________________________Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list i= s for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
*= Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org=
* Report tool= s.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other= bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Uns= ubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--000000000000241f5c05d43e5479-- From nobody Tue Dec 28 17:07:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 418473A0907 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:07:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Z7gFaL0qMaX for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x630.google.com (mail-pl1-x630.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::630]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A5713A0903 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x630.google.com with SMTP id u16so14708547plg.9 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:07:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=A72HR0VVoJySQTeFHsZmnyKiLXQ3cRXglIT9qM1u/po=; b=SwHDqaoqqYC3vbHFIBSH/8NKwmnN+PKFIXDI/x28L4rpTcHdijS2JnVt0N6JpSmG1u +TtEdcrpE2z4/F33ACnV1RKYeY/V1JNLbjucfSy9OeuyU+IAua78NWH7ZkKgmjbHrggv 3t1N+SweEcaBz98BFU2vXXsXrfBHLox75xp9tX8Fwzf+lMydigFTRNrxxLlzeHUapokq zLPoVkQuseR2jdF4DtKP9lKyy8cOmvRuzaoMgbQXt/NlptAXQog/FWgsFAzBU0QrRIY1 XRG8Qgj2uzTmSVnXa38TBf3T3QNHfsJP5FyA4Wp72/5rtWSJs2wThlnvOXSJ5USFOF+F MEKw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=A72HR0VVoJySQTeFHsZmnyKiLXQ3cRXglIT9qM1u/po=; b=SnDfAQ/oeqTtp9KKa32g6du/hCFu0zFX43BYb+H4HQH7Zk1MPo1P6/Q2yfdC1LMGaB zImcL6cw3MR0ZncnVT8pycq31AM3xUyRO5Wc70/YD8XRTfNcQzXmlwCvgDimHRe3rG2j GMznKq6giT6qU3mBoXG8qJiQjS/6hh5K7QbmqknYPxsMQMW/44DYF1JOEYXZldm/3GRj h9Ko4LSTPb3lkol7mZS/b1pc/n4XL6NLpaa6JBNlBwlQCv9upCt8FTajTppwMW3hidrD LuMadRjylET9Qsa5HsNUBojwO5c2Xc0ycwjWZqYUK8strGmeg/DIBuFnP+k1GNw7bq4m BwxQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5310pzOKfT0p3hoHjM8p3MnQnr2Kh1IDkjhPbzK88ptPdKNngXq0 DdmcntQ8uF5uPF6fYgmDiTM8QpLvk+TGiw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzbvglvmM9H93xP8EU5he5pV6yZHJdk2glzA5dM33Jogxk9koCVhnvW7EpOUbTSA9OxFNiPVw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:31cc:b0:148:9b30:d368 with SMTP id v12-20020a17090331cc00b001489b30d368mr25390370ple.9.1640740020301; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:07:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u21sm23176265pfg.220.2021.12.28.17.06.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:06:59 -0800 (PST) To: Eric Rescorla , tjw ietf Cc: tools-discuss References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <43dcb10e-de72-221c-7442-4dc37398af8f@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 14:06:56 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Change datatracker landing page to be RFC? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 01:07:10 -0000 I tend to disagree. Yes, for those of us here every day, a direct link sa= ves a few seconds. But shouldn't we more or less force people to see if w= hat they are looking for is (a) not the latest version (b) has been repla= ced (c) is dead (d) is already in Last Call (e) whatever? For RFCs I alway use the search box at https://www.rfc-editor.org/ these = days, unless I specifically want the tracker history. Why the IETF still = bothers to mirror the content of published RFCs is unclear, since the RFC=20 Editor now displays the htmlized versions of older RFCs. Regards Brian On 29-Dec-21 13:50, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:28 PM Eric Rescorla > wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:21 PM tjw ietf > wrote: >=20 > What about when you search expired rfc?=C2=A0 The info page mak= es a wee bit more sense. >=20 >=20 > Well, RFCs don't expire, so this particular case seems like a non-i= ssue. Perhaps you mean I-Ds? > In any case, my answer is the same: show the document, and if you l= ike show a banner with its status, > which in fact is more or less what we do if you finally click your = way there: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04 >=20 > Given that this is HTML, we could even show some giant "expired" ov= erlay if people insist, > like so.=20 >=20 >=20 > Or rather, like so: > https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/ >=20 > Note that you already have to go to some effort to get the DT to ev= en show > you expired drafts, so I don't think people are going to be that co= nfused. >=20 > My basic thesis is that the vast majority of people want to read th= e document, not > look at the metadata, so why are we making them go to a lot more wo= rk. >=20 > -Ekr >=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Dec 28, 2021, at 19:06, Eric Rescorla > wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BF >> Hi folks, >> >> I'm sure you've noticed that when you search with the datatrac= ker, the landing page is not the RFC/I-D itself but rather the datatracke= r info page, like so: >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/ >> >> It seems to me that the majority of people who are trying to f= ind drafts/RFCs don't want this metadata but rather want the document its= elf (especially for RFCs, where it's not like there is much activity.) Wh= at would people think of having that be the default, or at least having t= wo links on the search page, one for the doc and one for the metadata? >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug re= ports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-proj= ect@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webma= ster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 From nobody Tue Dec 28 17:09:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B96623A090D for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:09:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5uvxBI4SQH9b for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:09:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D868C3A0910 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:09:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id u8so15485893ilk.0 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:09:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YO3dCknL2PxwEmWm14t7qHHi2Nd1/uMWWlGgShf4N+o=; b=mdMu3lbEvaoIQjJQKSFZnZLkdQWk7AwTtQFDIbar386DgsOVYsAj81St/YzqqClGmr ccn3DPbTYUxiUYTE34FLN+AA7uYvlibN83FvhnGuvTu4qGhsQQfpgiCwhCmpi0NzPdDK hU+KAv5SYXob2nPQvtK0E9jVTNFMsdkeJYX5/ED7S7x9rmOZOQ1xfFu9fZxhqOFpN0DZ jcqLDRyfWmJFhi0OaM9h0RdONiq6D8ZqOguUxMpqV9SWKSwcBgiLxG7JNYz9jDkJan4t zQboxXIyqsN0zrLrKnSpEVs91CNw6QpWnw8HyZkX7f3JAEfK8pfsqnnhGqvM8AZVXtPR BuLw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YO3dCknL2PxwEmWm14t7qHHi2Nd1/uMWWlGgShf4N+o=; b=Z3/vPCozjumPNTatzuDgH38TulP4hfiyOirndqTXY48dF5Tt2WN9OP1cJurL9Z1v04 S1/nmNSql70NnXssn3BFp3SxPSwcDAP5/hXMb1aZQsw+3DV4nBmc1r8DhECgyl3k9gn7 kJ0exytJPaVU/XqOH9/8JHoB7U5LimkTVCXmu8ATZmCMtUE7I6Ozd45Aj1WP8xLX376o bCQz7nhUA+eZ8elQvFYYyFVzJjLjaNLOuYhSqDkc3Domp+tYz5dZXekhUg3tEqsmGhBa 0S+mDR/IGfvHcp8KJMhhQxD24rYd1G1BUw0VGN2x8sGLXhQx2xkv03g6Yv04vkZZBSLZ GCug== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533YfAGNRslioaItWak98Tnhg74Wl0QCz0th9ZA/3vLHd0um9UhM i0JMqXGMgTkF5MiTkAmXC7Chtm0XGy1TFuxISs19aw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy+U7o3S8lSytkhcjGNuMJTPIcIH2X472FT3VdGtY7dJZs3wHqQC0mUpvbMhRxSBUrfLggukqCT5pw3DX2aI1M= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1747:: with SMTP id y7mr7905502ill.10.1640740174072; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:09:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <43dcb10e-de72-221c-7442-4dc37398af8f@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <43dcb10e-de72-221c-7442-4dc37398af8f@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:08:58 -0800 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: tjw ietf , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003eabab05d43e97bf" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Change datatracker landing page to be RFC? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 01:09:43 -0000 --0000000000003eabab05d43e97bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 5:07 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > I tend to disagree. Yes, for those of us here every day, a direct link > saves a few seconds. But shouldn't we more or less force people to see if > what they are looking for is (a) not the latest version (b) has been > replaced (c) is dead (d) is already in Last Call (e) whatever? > Why can't this be done with a banner? For RFCs I alway use the search box at https://www.rfc-editor.org/ these > days, unless I specifically want the tracker history. Why the IETF still > bothers to mirror the content of published RFCs is unclear, since the RFC > Editor now displays the htmlized versions of older RFCs. > Well, the DT actually points to rfc-editor.org for some of the versions. As for which search box to use, it seems unhelpful to require people to use a different site for RFCs and I-Ds. -Ekr > Regards > Brian > > On 29-Dec-21 13:50, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:28 PM Eric Rescorla ekr@rtfm.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:21 PM tjw ietf > wrote: > > > > What about when you search expired rfc? The info page makes a > wee bit more sense. > > > > > > Well, RFCs don't expire, so this particular case seems like a > non-issue. Perhaps you mean I-Ds? > > In any case, my answer is the same: show the document, and if you > like show a banner with its status, > > which in fact is more or less what we do if you finally click your > way there: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04 < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04> > > > > Given that this is HTML, we could even show some giant "expired" > overlay if people insist, > > like so. > > > > > > Or rather, like so: > > https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/ < > https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/> > > > > Note that you already have to go to some effort to get the DT to > even show > > you expired drafts, so I don't think people are going to be that > confused. > > > > My basic thesis is that the vast majority of people want to read th= e > document, not > > look at the metadata, so why are we making them go to a lot more > work. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Dec 28, 2021, at 19:06, Eric Rescorla ekr@rtfm.com>> wrote: > >> > >> =EF=BB=BF > >> Hi folks, > >> > >> I'm sure you've noticed that when you search with the > datatracker, the landing page is not the RFC/I-D itself but rather the > datatracker info page, like so: > >> > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/ < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/> > >> > >> It seems to me that the majority of people who are trying to > find drafts/RFCs don't want this metadata but rather want the document > itself (especially for RFCs, where it's not like there is much activity.) > What would people think of having that be the default, or at least having > two links on the search page, one for the doc and one for the metadata? > >> > >> -Ekr > >> > >> > >> ___________________________________________________________ > >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org Tools-discuss@ietf.org> > >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug > reports. > >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: > webmaster@tools.ietf.org > >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss < > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss> > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > --0000000000003eabab05d43e97bf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 5:07 PM Brian= E Carpenter <brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com> wrote:
I tend to disagree. Yes, for those of us here every day, a = direct link saves a few seconds. But shouldn't we more or less force pe= ople to see if what they are looking for is (a) not the latest version (b) = has been replaced (c) is dead (d) is already in Last Call (e) whatever?
=

Why can't this be done with a banner?<= /div>


For RFCs I alway use the search box at https://www.rfc-editor.org/ th= ese days, unless I specifically want the tracker history. Why the IETF stil= l bothers to mirror the content of published RFCs is unclear, since the RFC=
Editor now displays the htmlized versions of older RFCs.

Well, the DT actually points to rfc-editor.org for some of the versions. As for which search b= ox to use, it seems unhelpful to require people to use a different site for= RFCs and I-Ds.

-Ekr


Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

On 29-Dec-21 13:50, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:28 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:21 PM tjw ietf <tjw.ietf@gmail.com &l= t;mailto:tjw.ietf@g= mail.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What about when you search expired rf= c?=C2=A0 The info page makes a wee bit more sense.
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Well, RFCs don't expire, so this particular cas= e seems like a non-issue. Perhaps you mean I-Ds?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In any case, my answer is the same: show the docume= nt, and if you like show a banner with its status,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0which in fact is more or less what we do if you fin= ally click your way there:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracke= r.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04> >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Given that this is HTML, we could even show some gi= ant "expired" overlay if people insist,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0like so.
>
>
> Or rather, like so:
> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/ <https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Note that you already have to go to some effort to = get the DT to even show
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you expired drafts, so I don't think people are= going to be that confused.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0My basic thesis is that the vast majority of people= want to read the document, not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0look at the metadata, so why are we making them go = to a lot more work.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Ekr
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent from my iPhone
>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Dec 28, 2021, at 19:06, Eric R= escorla <ekr@rtfm.com<= /a> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.c= om>> wrote:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=EF=BB=BF
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi folks,
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I'm sure you've noticed t= hat when you search with the datatracker, the landing page is not the RFC/I= -D itself but rather the datatracker info page, like so:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatrack= er.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/ <https://datatracker.ietf.o= rg/doc/rfc8555/>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It seems to me that the majority = of people who are trying to find drafts/RFCs don't want this metadata b= ut rather want the document itself (especially for RFCs, where it's not= like there is much activity.) What would people think of having that be th= e default, or at least having two links on the search page, one for the doc= and one for the metadata?
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Ekr
>>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_________________________________= __________________________
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.= org <mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This list is for discussion, not = for action requests or bug reports.
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Report datatracker and mailarch= ive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org <mailto:datatracker-project@ietf.org>=
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Report tools.ietf.org <http://to= ols.ietf.org> bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org <mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf.org>= ;
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Report all other bugs or issues= to: ietf-action@= ietf.org <mailto:ietf-action@ietf.org>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0List info (including how to Unsub= scribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/to= ols-discuss <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
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--0000000000003eabab05d43e97bf-- From nobody Tue Dec 28 17:22:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 326D03A0971 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:22:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.852, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2s4kRq62FWxk for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:22:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1030.google.com (mail-pj1-x1030.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1030]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E3EE3A096E for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:22:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1030.google.com with SMTP id r16-20020a17090a0ad000b001b276aa3aabso9937224pje.0 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:22:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=m59XLIC/bJXTdT7vU+hbQZVeuVgUkk6+qjrIrWtagkA=; b=PsurXmqP1mcqHe9XZp48UFkHcE7spP0wpH/9Hk+n0WYdpxavTwUEL7u6b7KNyl/jh3 /3ncflbxVzV1uFQvvE6+vFEUxxiolbSR2BLCXxW6reK0c0QkUxJNhivm1BVHFc1QX2AL 5iS6dex0ZwEIa7NMMgBOqStWIluFBHwUUgTmH6Npv5nNzBl3V06wMUcWuBLMg7uVLOJg +MOsBwdewNFK81qxoWbY0/SC95PV9ktFRFFxNRpyljhr5X5hApeV3Mi5qTEV1hSkOfjC sYDvu9uctnM42ak5MrMqy86+jh2qItKQQBlBTyiLKZQYrXRTY00p6a4YRQH2KNQdLw3r ru5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=m59XLIC/bJXTdT7vU+hbQZVeuVgUkk6+qjrIrWtagkA=; b=tGdCnhSzlf6IIL8iiQuSEgOrQo/Af4CMHJP9O2UEA9ur6kUAfpY7lvSUntK2hhemhg xkMf/phFCmiHc63Wlr/ZDfBm9OTCf5Wp2GM+xuwU5pR1Dr8KD3UxSrf/jt8dIkBvodow rbXkuNtJwQ3O0ioLFv4mPrLDeqi+nBB/Zi7DeDjzv6mNKp4JQl4i2Eax3oPqm/+lyb+J 0jks6zzzRmSxkzjj9fnjlxObbX4NiYoHkY6SogXiIoJUqT+DO7x/lwapM2F7xcasfmj5 izykzYabyo/S+K8E3z8PaJ4f0ThvW4Eqv6PzW2MWWlMG5hyRQcP8t2eOhV/jtIv8v9pp lBBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533O00Qap9Q4ZEqRQLGOXKyf3dp1wucXe4D/6bDoSpbwTGfuxs1P tIwfV5fleS30vgZL6cuomLl6s4zVk9f7Jw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyKy6yG2ZRCEj4ZQWqDJ/L1sE4koLLwnoAzngzyBW7M19mdlPHvi1+Lo7xRhj3p5CJQs8gM8A== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:1109:b0:143:85f3:af29 with SMTP id n9-20020a170903110900b0014385f3af29mr23925509plh.47.1640740936715; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id gk13sm23562084pjb.43.2021.12.28.17.22.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:22:16 -0800 (PST) To: Eric Rescorla Cc: tjw ietf , tools-discuss References: <43dcb10e-de72-221c-7442-4dc37398af8f@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <7ade30cb-e3c0-27df-70df-16aa171ffeca@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 14:22:12 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Change datatracker landing page to be RFC? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 01:22:25 -0000 On 29-Dec-21 14:08, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 5:07 PM Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >=20 > I tend to disagree. Yes, for those of us here every day, a direct l= ink saves a few seconds. But shouldn't we more or less force people to se= e if what they are looking for is (a) not the latest version (b) has been=20 replaced (c) is dead (d) is already in Last Call (e) whatever? >=20 >=20 > Why can't this be done with a banner? Yes, that would be fine. >=20 >=20 > For RFCs I alway use the search box at https://www.rfc-editor.org/ = these days, unless I specifically want the = tracker history. Why the IETF still bothers to mirror the content of publ= ished RFCs is unclear, since the RFC > Editor now displays the htmlized versions of older RFCs. >=20 >=20 > Well, the DT actually points to rfc-editor.org = for some of the versions. As for which search box to use, it seems unhelp= ful to require people to use a different site for RFCs and I-Ds. Fair enough, but the tracker search is definitely more geeky. It has some=20 quirks that probably need attention. If I type in "5430" I get useful inf= ormation (like, it's obsolete) and eventually a page that links to https:= //www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5430.html *and* to https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5430, which is essentia= lly identical but just slightly different. Brian >=20 > -Ekr >=20 >=20 > Regards > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian >=20 > On 29-Dec-21 13:50, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:28 PM Eric Rescorla >> wrote: > > > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:21 PM tjw ietf >> wrote: > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What about when you search expi= red rfc?=C2=A0 The info page makes a wee bit more sense. > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Well, RFCs don't expire, so this particular c= ase seems like a non-issue. Perhaps you mean I-Ds? > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In any case, my answer is the same: show the = document, and if you like show a banner with its status, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0which in fact is more or less what we do if y= ou finally click your way there: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04 > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Given that this is HTML, we could even show s= ome giant "expired" overlay if people insist, > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0like so. > > > > > > Or rather, like so: > > https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/ > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Note that you already have to go to some effo= rt to get the DT to even show > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you expired drafts, so I don't think people a= re going to be that confused. > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0My basic thesis is that the vast majority of = people want to read the document, not > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0look at the metadata, so why are we making th= em go to a lot more work. > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Ekr > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent from my iPhone > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Dec 28, 2021, at 19:06, Eri= c Rescorla >> wrote: > >> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=EF=BB=BF > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi folks, > >> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I'm sure you've noticed that w= hen you search with the datatracker, the landing page is not the RFC/I-D = itself but rather the datatracker info page, like so: > >> > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/ > > >> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It seems to me that the majori= ty of people who are trying to find drafts/RFCs don't want this metadata = but rather want the document itself (especially for RFCs, where it's not = like there is much activity.) What would people think of having that be t= he default, or at least having two links on the search page, one for the = doc and one for the metadata? > >> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Ekr > >> > >> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0______________________________= _____________________________ > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tools-discuss mailing list - T= ools-discuss@ietf.org > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This list is for discussion, n= ot for action requests or bug reports. > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Report datatracker and maila= rchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Report tools.ietf.org > bugs to= : webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Report all other bugs or iss= ues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0List info (including how to Un= subscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug repo= rts. > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-projec= t@ietf.org > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmast= er@tools.ietf.org > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > >=20 From nobody Tue Dec 28 17:51:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A9EC3A09ED for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:51:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DC_PNG_UNO_LARGO=0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5H5GXvmudkYk for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:51:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 409BC3A09E9 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:51:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id l3so22197084iol.10 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:51:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mawqSXep25AoHfZISbNKAWL4M5CJ02cwdtciY8Uf36o=; b=kHEyZqlEvcX7kNTR49w+Oi3pNEvRjZKEMJaFv3DNhHbZaRUTq0OJD7Aj/SBy/YYmeZ ZTONuPnGVn2NDKwW8N8XVDdKQzfi29LokFft4ejeBfm0UWqj9jnJTiMcbIYLDUan2Ox4 6nyZiGEIRcuuzK/pKVwy2WSA4aFdqU4QUdAB9il4fC8VkFE5ysoJxqD2sUqu6i4xaJjO MVBjqgXDl2SBUujxwUShRhR85t4qU1C1pnM3fdHQ8tBgqOlDilTIUt6f+USPEp5jXMnT XEoPNmmaAE2nT8n7v/Ossa/RlYne5AtuaStNdtiDuKdwtHmZUo7DC4tHIEmSj7oGA+Dr +QPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mawqSXep25AoHfZISbNKAWL4M5CJ02cwdtciY8Uf36o=; b=L4/nTu/pYjweQhzYHpbjR5OZgyrJ9odsS1a8IGKnwUZPV62GlvQAN54owPLr7WJeVy ah4TKSKoCjIsj89qRy4qf2DaczisgPgq5IWVToCPCBrFOjqiqlDkm41Ec4QoEXcb9a3Z ghBAHpPMqk8veNO7GgAR7D+lF93thDX8WKaZOROLjHTTpa1GVmYKac3NxZGdnHzsd8O9 Q3Src6U61Lomic3Q3HTnJS72+zJThKFRkqx3izcwJHVrRWZEoDl36de7flg91qolmLUz +9qlEeh2rO5Lx9J+13p+X7Gs0fsZoSjhIo6GBjEi4zocSnTZed+Wh8wpvbijdoGV/eOe JEZA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532HxDtZ4rq4h68ovmZTf2r/N5/cOGJaqs7R2eFw7ki4Dg0Q3RrZ JBVeao2QnZrmfDBJh8xyxcdycgyOXAFvQDdbeoAjsg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzQ+0kSFErMdbfDfkn2FyELUHNvQ74pz2WHOKgCQMbqYrfKePLbd1C62tn0xP7sEXPBupm8fDETWXcvWpIyClQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:168e:: with SMTP id s14mr10761539iow.50.1640742662361; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:51:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <43dcb10e-de72-221c-7442-4dc37398af8f@gmail.com> <7ade30cb-e3c0-27df-70df-16aa171ffeca@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7ade30cb-e3c0-27df-70df-16aa171ffeca@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 17:50:26 -0800 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: tjw ietf , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0000000000008f07c605d43f2b29" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Change datatracker landing page to be RFC? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 01:51:12 -0000 --0000000000008f07c605d43f2b29 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008f07c505d43f2b28" --0000000000008f07c505d43f2b28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 5:22 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 29-Dec-21 14:08, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 5:07 PM Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > I tend to disagree. Yes, for those of us here every day, a direct > link saves a few seconds. But shouldn't we more or less force people to s= ee > if what they are looking for is (a) not the latest version (b) has been > replaced (c) is dead (d) is already in Last Call (e) whatever? > > > > > > Why can't this be done with a banner? > > Yes, that would be fine. > > > > > > > For RFCs I alway use the search box at https://www.rfc-editor.org/ = < > https://www.rfc-editor.org/> these days, unless I specifically want the > tracker history. Why the IETF still bothers to mirror the content of > published RFCs is unclear, since the RFC > > Editor now displays the htmlized versions of older RFCs. > > > > > > Well, the DT actually points to rfc-editor.org > for some of the versions. As for which search box to use, it seems > unhelpful to require people to use a different site for RFCs and I-Ds. > > Fair enough, but the tracker search is definitely more geeky. It has some > quirks that probably need attention. If I type in "5430" I get useful > information (like, it's obsolete) and eventually a page that links to > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5430.html > *and* to https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5430, which is > essentially identical but just slightly different. > To be clear, all I'm suggesting is that the link off the search results page go right to the document. I.e., when I click RFC 8555 below. [image: image.png] Brian > > > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > Regards > > Brian > > > > On 29-Dec-21 13:50, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:28 PM Eric Rescorla >> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:21 PM tjw ietf tjw.ietf@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > > > > > What about when you search expired rfc? The info page > makes a wee bit more sense. > > > > > > > > > Well, RFCs don't expire, so this particular case seems like = a > non-issue. Perhaps you mean I-Ds? > > > In any case, my answer is the same: show the document, and i= f > you like show a banner with its status, > > > which in fact is more or less what we do if you finally clic= k > your way there: > > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04 < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04> < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04 < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04>> > > > > > > Given that this is HTML, we could even show some giant > "expired" overlay if people insist, > > > like so. > > > > > > > > > Or rather, like so: > > > https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/ < > https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/> < > https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/ < > https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/>> > > > > > > Note that you already have to go to some effort to get the D= T > to even show > > > you expired drafts, so I don't think people are going to be > that confused. > > > > > > My basic thesis is that the vast majority of people want to > read the document, not > > > look at the metadata, so why are we making them go to a lot > more work. > > > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >> On Dec 28, 2021, at 19:06, Eric Rescorla >> wrote: > > >> > > >> =EF=BB=BF > > >> Hi folks, > > >> > > >> I'm sure you've noticed that when you search with the > datatracker, the landing page is not the RFC/I-D itself but rather the > datatracker info page, like so: > > >> > > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/ < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/> < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/ < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/>> > > >> > > >> It seems to me that the majority of people who are > trying to find drafts/RFCs don't want this metadata but rather want the > document itself (especially for RFCs, where it's not like there is much > activity.) What would people think of having that be the default, or at > least having two links on the search page, one for the doc and one for th= e > metadata? > > >> > > >> -Ekr > > >> > > >> > > >> > ___________________________________________________________ > > >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > Tools-discuss@ietf.org>> > > >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or > bug reports. > > >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > >> > > >> * Report tools.ietf.org < > http://tools.ietf.org > bugs to: > webmaster@tools.ietf.org webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > > >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: > ietf-action@ietf.org ietf-action@ietf.org > > > >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss < > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss> < > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss < > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss>> > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org Tools-discuss@ietf.org> > > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug > reports. > > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: > webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss < > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss> > > > > > > > --0000000000008f07c505d43f2b28 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 5:22 PM Brian= E Carpenter <brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 29-Dec-21 14:08, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 5:07 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.co= m <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I tend to disagree. Yes, for those of us here every= day, a direct link saves a few seconds. But shouldn't we more or less = force people to see if what they are looking for is (a) not the latest vers= ion (b) has been
replaced (c) is dead (d) is already in Last Call (e) whatever?
>
>
> Why can't this be done with a banner?

Yes, that would be fine.

>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For RFCs I alway use the search box at https://ww= w.rfc-editor.org/ <https://www.rfc-editor.org/> these days,= unless I specifically want the tracker history. Why the IETF still bothers= to mirror the content of published RFCs is unclear, since the RFC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Editor now displays the htmlized versions of older = RFCs.
>
>
> Well, the DT actually points to rfc-editor.org <http://rfc-editor.org<= /a>> for some of the versions. As for which search box to use, it seems = unhelpful to require people to use a different site for RFCs and I-Ds.

Fair enough, but the tracker search is definitely more geeky. It has some <= br> quirks that probably need attention. If I type in "5430" I get us= eful information (like, it's obsolete) and eventually a page that links= to
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5430.html
*and* to https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5430<= /a>, which is essentially identical but just slightly different.

To be clear, all I'm suggesting is that the l= ink off the search results page go right to the document.

I.e., when I click RFC 8555 below.

3D"image.png"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian


>
> -Ekr
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Regards
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 29-Dec-21 13:50, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:28 PM Eric Rescorla= <
ekr@rtfm.com <= ;mailto:ekr@rtfm.com&= gt; <mailto:ekr@rtfm.c= om <mailto:ekr@rtf= m.com>>> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:= 21 PM tjw ietf <= tjw.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:tjw.ietf@gmail.com> <mailto:tjw.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:tjw.ietf@gmail.com>= >> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What about w= hen you search expired rfc?=C2=A0 The info page makes a wee bit more sense.=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Well, RFCs don't expir= e, so this particular case seems like a non-issue. Perhaps you mean I-Ds? >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In any case, my answer is = the same: show the document, and if you like show a banner with its status,=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0which in fact is more or l= ess what we do if you finally click your way there:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://data= tracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04= > <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= html/draft-barnes-acme-04 <https://= datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Given that this is HTML, w= e could even show some giant "expired" overlay if people insist,<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0like so.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Or rather, like so:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did= -method-web/ <https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-w= eb/> <https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/= <https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/>&= gt;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Note that you already have= to go to some effort to get the DT to even show
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you expired drafts, so I d= on't think people are going to be that confused.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0My basic thesis is that th= e vast majority of people want to read the document, not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0look at the metadata, so w= hy are we making them go to a lot more work.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Ekr
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent from my= iPhone
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Dec 2= 8, 2021, at 19:06, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=EF=BB= =BF
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi folks= ,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I'm = sure you've noticed that when you search with the datatracker, the land= ing page is not the RFC/I-D itself but rather the datatracker info page, li= ke so:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/rfc8555/ <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/r= fc8555/> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc855= 5/ <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/>= ;>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It seems= to me that the majority of people who are trying to find drafts/RFCs don&#= 39;t want this metadata but rather want the document itself (especially for= RFCs, where it's not like there is much activity.) What would people t= hink of having that be the default, or at least having two links on the sea= rch page, one for the doc and one for the metadata?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Ekr
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0________= ___________________________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tools-di= scuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org <mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org> <mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.= org <mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This lis= t is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Report= datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org <mailto:datatracker= -project@ietf.org> <mailto:datatracker-project@ietf.org <mailto:datatracker-= project@ietf.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Report= too= ls.ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.org> <http://tools.ietf.org <= ;htt= p://tools.ietf.org>> bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org <mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf= .org> <mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf.org <mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf.org>>=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Report= all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org <mailto:ietf-action@ietf.org> <mailto:ietf-action@ietf.org= <mailto:i= etf-action@ietf.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0List inf= o (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss <http= s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss<= /a>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > _____________________________________________= ______________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Tools-discuss mailing list -
Tools-discuss@ietf.org <= mailto:Tools-di= scuss@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > This list is for discussion, not for action r= equests or bug reports.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:= datatrac= ker-project@ietf.org <mailto:datatracker-project@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > * Report tools.ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.org= > bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org <mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org= <mailto:ietf-= action@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss<= /a> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/too= ls-discuss>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>

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[184.15.191.206]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m20sm17694007qkp.112.2021.12.28.19.12.32 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:12:33 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2943ADE8-E472-458C-B09B-14EDDEA95DDD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: tjw ietf Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 22:12:31 -0500 Message-Id: <78CFC6DE-470B-4D02-A1EB-9B5E0F0A412F@gmail.com> References: Cc: Brian E Carpenter , tools-discuss In-Reply-To: To: Eric Rescorla X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19C56) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Change datatracker landing page to be RFC? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 03:12:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail-2943ADE8-E472-458C-B09B-14EDDEA95DDD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe I am weird but I never search for RFCs from the data tracker. I type R= FC8020 into the address bar and let the magic happen. =20 Tim. =20 Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 28, 2021, at 20:51, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >=20 >> On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 5:22 PM Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 29-Dec-21 14:08, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 5:07 PM Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >> >=20 >> > I tend to disagree. Yes, for those of us here every day, a direct l= ink saves a few seconds. But shouldn't we more or less force people to see i= f what they are looking for is (a) not the latest version (b) has been=20 >> replaced (c) is dead (d) is already in Last Call (e) whatever? >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > Why can't this be done with a banner? >>=20 >> Yes, that would be fine. >>=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > For RFCs I alway use the search box at https://www.rfc-editor.org/ <= https://www.rfc-editor.org/> these days, unless I specifically want the trac= ker history. Why the IETF still bothers to mirror the content of published R= FCs is unclear, since the RFC >> > Editor now displays the htmlized versions of older RFCs. >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > Well, the DT actually points to rfc-editor.org f= or some of the versions. As for which search box to use, it seems unhelpful t= o require people to use a different site for RFCs and I-Ds. >>=20 >> Fair enough, but the tracker search is definitely more geeky. It has some= =20 >> quirks that probably need attention. If I type in "5430" I get useful inf= ormation (like, it's obsolete) and eventually a page that links to https://w= ww.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5430.html >> *and* to https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5430, which is essentia= lly identical but just slightly different. >=20 > To be clear, all I'm suggesting is that the link off the search results pa= ge go right to the document. >=20 > I.e., when I click RFC 8555 below. >=20 >=20 >=20 >> Brian >>=20 >>=20 >> >=20 >> > -Ekr >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > Regards >> > Brian >> >=20 >> > On 29-Dec-21 13:50, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:28 PM Eric Rescorla >> wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:21 PM tjw ietf >> wrote: >> > > >> > > What about when you search expired rfc? The info page m= akes a wee bit more sense. >> > > >> > > >> > > Well, RFCs don't expire, so this particular case seems like a= non-issue. Perhaps you mean I-Ds? >> > > In any case, my answer is the same: show the document, and i= f you like show a banner with its status, >> > > which in fact is more or less what we do if you finally clic= k your way there: >> > > >> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04 > >> > > >> > > Given that this is HTML, we could even show some giant "expi= red" overlay if people insist, >> > > like so. >> > > >> > > >> > > Or rather, like so: >> > > https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/ > >> > > >> > > Note that you already have to go to some effort to get the D= T to even show >> > > you expired drafts, so I don't think people are going to be t= hat confused. >> > > >> > > My basic thesis is that the vast majority of people want to r= ead the document, not >> > > look at the metadata, so why are we making them go to a lot m= ore work. >> > > >> > > -Ekr >> > > >> > > >> > > Sent from my iPhone >> > > >> > >> On Dec 28, 2021, at 19:06, Eric Rescorla >> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> =EF=BB=BF >> > >> Hi folks, >> > >> >> > >> I'm sure you've noticed that when you search with the d= atatracker, the landing page is not the RFC/I-D itself but rather the datatr= acker info page, like so: >> > >> >> > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/ > >> > >> >> > >> It seems to me that the majority of people who are tryi= ng to find drafts/RFCs don't want this metadata but rather want the document= itself (especially for RFCs, where it's not like there is much activity.) W= hat would people think of having that be the default, or at least having two= links on the search page, one for the doc and one for the metadata? >> > >> >> > >> -Ekr >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________________= ____ >> > >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > >> > >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or= bug reports. >> > >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatrack= er-project@ietf.org > >> > >> * Report tools.ietf.org > bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org <= mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf.org> > >> > >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.= org > >> > >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > >> > > >> > > >> > > ___________________________________________________________ >> > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug repo= rts. >> > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-projec= t@ietf.org >> > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmast= er@tools.ietf.org >> > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> > > >> >=20 >>=20 --Apple-Mail-2943ADE8-E472-458C-B09B-14EDDEA95DDD Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary=Apple-Mail-BE9F7060-1528-48F4-BEC1-67D1D92012EB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Apple-Mail-BE9F7060-1528-48F4-BEC1-67D1D92012EB Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe I am weird but I never search for RFC= s from the data tracker. I type RFC8020 into the address bar and let the mag= ic happen.  

Tim.  

Sen= t from my iPhone

On Dec 2= 8, 2021, at 20:51, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF


On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 5:22 PM Brian E Carpenter &l= t;brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com= > wrote:
On= 29-Dec-21 14:08, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 5:07 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<= /a> <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I tend to disagree. Yes, for those of us here every d= ay, a direct link saves a few seconds. But shouldn't we more or less force p= eople to see if what they are looking for is (a) not the latest version (b) h= as been
replaced (c) is dead (d) is already in Last Call (e) whatever?
>
>
> Why can't this be done with a banner?

Yes, that would be fine.

>
>
>     For RFCs I alway use the search box at https://www.= rfc-editor.org/ <https://www.rfc-editor.org/> these days, unl= ess I specifically want the tracker history. Why the IETF still bothers to m= irror the content of published RFCs is unclear, since the RFC
>     Editor now displays the htmlized versions of older R= FCs.
>
>
> Well, the DT actually points to rfc-editor.org <http://rfc-editor.org&g= t; for some of the versions. As for which search box to use, it seems unhelp= ful to require people to use a different site for RFCs and I-Ds.

Fair enough, but the tracker search is definitely more geeky. It has some quirks that probably need attention. If I type in "5430" I get useful inform= ation (like, it's obsolete) and eventually a page that links to https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5430.html
*and* to https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5430, which is essentially identical but just slightly different.

To be clear, all I'm suggesting is that the link off t= he search results page go right to the document.

I.= e., when I click RFC 8555 below.

3D"image.=

   Brian


>
> -Ekr
>
>
>     Regards
>          Brian
>
>     On 29-Dec-21 13:50, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:28 PM Eric Rescorla &= lt;
ekr@rtfm.com <ma= ilto:ekr@rtfm.com> &= lt;mailto:ekr@rtfm.com= <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>> wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >     On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:2= 1 PM tjw ietf <
tj= w.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:tjw.ietf@gmail.com> <mailto:tjw.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:tjw.ietf@gmail.com>>&g= t; wrote:
>      >
>      >         What about wh= en you search expired rfc?  The info page makes a wee bit more sense. >      >
>      >
>      >     Well, RFCs don't expire, so= this particular case seems like a non-issue. Perhaps you mean I-Ds?
>      >     In any case, my answer is t= he same: show the document, and if you like show a banner with its status, >      >     which in fact is more or le= ss what we do if you finally click your way there:
>      >
>      > https://datatr= acker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04> &= lt;https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dra= ft-barnes-acme-04 <https://datatracke= r.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04>>
>      >
>      >     Given that this is HTML, we= could even show some giant "expired" overlay if people insist,
>      >     like so.
>      >
>      >
>      > Or rather, like so:
>      > https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-m= ethod-web/ <https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/<= /a>> <https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/ <= ;https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/>>
>      >
>      >     Note that you already have t= o go to some effort to get the DT to even show
>      >     you expired drafts, so I do= n't think people are going to be that confused.
>      >
>      >     My basic thesis is that the= vast majority of people want to read the document, not
>      >     look at the metadata, so wh= y are we making them go to a lot more work.
>      >
>      >     -Ekr
>      >
>      >
>      >         Sent from my i= Phone
>      >
>      >>         On Dec 28= , 2021, at 19:06, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>> wrote:
>      >>
>      >>         =EF=BB=BF=
>      >>         Hi folks,=
>      >>
>      >>         I'm sure y= ou've noticed that when you search with the datatracker, the landing page is= not the RFC/I-D itself but rather the datatracker info page, like so:
>      >>
>      >> https://datatracker.ietf.or= g/doc/rfc8555/ <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc85= 55/> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/= <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/>> >      >>
>      >>         It seems t= o me that the majority of people who are trying to find drafts/RFCs don't wa= nt this metadata but rather want the document itself (especially for RFCs, w= here it's not like there is much activity.) What would people think of havin= g that be the default, or at least having two links on the search page, one f= or the doc and one for the metadata?
>      >>
>      >>         -Ekr
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>         _________= __________________________________________________
>      >>         Tools-dis= cuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org <mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org> <mailto:Tools-discuss@ietf.org= <mailto:Tool= s-discuss@ietf.org>>
>      >>         This list= is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
>      >>         * Report d= atatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org <mailto:datatracker-proj= ect@ietf.org> <mailto:datatracker-project@ietf.org <mailto:datatracker-project@= ietf.org>>
>      >>         * Report <= a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.= ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.org> <http://tools.ietf.org <http://too= ls.ietf.org>> bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org <mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf.org>= ; <mailto:w= ebmaster@tools.ietf.org <mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf.org>>
>      >>         * Report a= ll other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org <mailto:ietf-action@ietf.org> <mailto:ietf-action@ietf.org <= ;mailto:ietf-actio= n@ietf.org>>
>      >>         List info= (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss <https://w= ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss>>=
>      >
>      >
>      > ______________________________________________= _____________
>      > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org <ma= ilto:Tools-discu= ss@ietf.org>
>      > This list is for discussion, not for action re= quests or bug reports.
>      > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: <= a href=3D"mailto:datatracker-project@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">datatracker= -project@ietf.org <mailto:datatracker-project@ietf.org>
>      > * Report tools.ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.org> bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org <mailto:webmaster@tools.ietf.org>
>      > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org <= ;mailto:ietf-actio= n@ietf.org>
>      > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss= <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-di= scuss>
>      >
>

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--Apple-Mail-BE9F7060-1528-48F4-BEC1-67D1D92012EB-- --Apple-Mail-2943ADE8-E472-458C-B09B-14EDDEA95DDD-- From nobody Wed Dec 29 02:30:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33383A124F for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 02:30:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id paVeTfKNozzL for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 02:30:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 295C63A124E for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 02:30:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a436.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.164.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4JP72m2DvkzDCdw; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 11:30:24 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 11:30:23 +0100 Cc: tjw ietf , tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 662466623.755644-ee311b9342a7a41ffa82e68d0be7b6c7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0390EA6F-0CBB-4CAB-85AF-ABA887372B20@tzi.org> References: To: Eric Rescorla X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Change datatracker landing page to be RFC? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 10:30:36 -0000 On 2021-12-29, at 01:50, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > Or rather, like so: > https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/ Hi Eric, can you say what you are trying to demonstrate? This html file arrives completely unstyled here, so I don=E2=80=99t know = what is special about it (maybe the "TypeError: undefined is not a = constructor=E2=80=9D has something to do with that). (Nice counterexample demo for attaching metadata to HTML pages.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Dec 29 08:55:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2A6E3A18D0 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:55:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gtxlx9gaobMr for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:54:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com (mail-oi1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 875BC3A18CF for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:54:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id u21so22585049oie.10 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:54:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=p071LcXbrKYZu6c/LKh/bD/2sbNPJuywIZ3uRm6GW4g=; b=bFtCJ4pE4kWzTdw968Vt4cj8gCjlenXp1y4uUmePBbCVfG4b8eIFC2YD1hQOF3VMw0 Hj5pONmtF73tdnb2rn99TezfOebq8d8NsSAXd/keYa8rPHQYC2aap6HJPi4vef9XF5sl tkCUQGYbBpQBrYzXv1X0urX+IPuW9SDvGrBLwMMLQchPKvYWXyRnULSYgeGfTMt2MOoa HzVNDJf3x1Tq+Gz2ZQvbwiOws2KZLmfzVWLJxl3IsJ7znGaP4tcTS8KDaGzZZD7scIan vOpMu/15nhnocmPeUyUR9CLOEkw9sEc6T3x+IGDIOSIqfPZXQW+mYtl7AG0VoNfQ6um+ qV0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=p071LcXbrKYZu6c/LKh/bD/2sbNPJuywIZ3uRm6GW4g=; b=0kUbBuP4RkWBFYHFwxlP1swq/Yd3IYYEyX/P1DK0/r2GE3O8qA4TZeYoDG3lWmB5Xh EtPr83pQQCWTwiYlEQiWlA5jddcZOKZY1OLsUa6RtszFCz8smRt2KnGvii7UILWSMzm0 aRKorlCMQ1kF54/z3b4ui7+0uJ5eU98yl8EX6w4Hldilv795KNAKcGrnx1GcfcSozgvQ wtqpvk6h9TuOM9Sj1sS5k9jxP0f5zNKoPGEFXC1JUmUtDOH9g6c/6AZZw1+vGV/3Szuv xnLqq+XDWWQtE+b1gL+ICLtBrtamhLNVS9yu3IVW0fmV7aB1/8Qufal8Sq98T69wL93y rA7w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531sSksPwSOQimxneNXMNCJ4SL0RNL1AlibMVEUJRTuIqVFEgzRx trsLF1jMm0qO64BKUH64+XU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyfwI8b4/UyXUjXY7UThAnzecDo09Z07IS8cAgUXymGx9OF4D3GaoNPlFBezNn5HIVcMaJJaw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:22a6:: with SMTP id bo38mr21156253oib.78.1640796892536; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (99-31-208-116.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net. [99.31.208.116]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bd6sm4820891oib.53.2021.12.29.08.54.51 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:54:51 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <7CBA6BB2-6A21-4FDA-8E81-AB01931A8F06@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3C8EDFAC-D92D-44DF-AC08-E7AD58707A0D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:54:49 -0800 In-Reply-To: <78CFC6DE-470B-4D02-A1EB-9B5E0F0A412F@gmail.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , Eric Rescorla , tools-discuss To: tjw ietf References: <78CFC6DE-470B-4D02-A1EB-9B5E0F0A412F@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Change datatracker landing page to be RFC? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 16:55:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3C8EDFAC-D92D-44DF-AC08-E7AD58707A0D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Tim, Same for me. When I do use the data tracker search, is more likely = that I am interested in data tracker info page for the document. Bob > On Dec 28, 2021, at 7:12 PM, tjw ietf wrote: >=20 > Maybe I am weird but I never search for RFCs from the data tracker. I = type RFC8020 into the address bar and let the magic happen. >=20 > Tim. >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Dec 28, 2021, at 20:51, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>=20 >> On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 5:22 PM Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >> On 29-Dec-21 14:08, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 5:07 PM Brian E Carpenter = > = wrote: >> > >> > I tend to disagree. Yes, for those of us here every day, a = direct link saves a few seconds. But shouldn't we more or less force = people to see if what they are looking for is (a) not the latest version = (b) has been >> replaced (c) is dead (d) is already in Last Call (e) whatever? >> > >> > >> > Why can't this be done with a banner? >>=20 >> Yes, that would be fine. >>=20 >> > >> > >> > For RFCs I alway use the search box at = https://www.rfc-editor.org/ these days, = unless I specifically want the tracker history. Why the IETF still = bothers to mirror the content of published RFCs is unclear, since the = RFC >> > Editor now displays the htmlized versions of older RFCs. >> > >> > >> > Well, the DT actually points to rfc-editor.org = for some of the versions. As for which search = box to use, it seems unhelpful to require people to use a different site = for RFCs and I-Ds. >>=20 >> Fair enough, but the tracker search is definitely more geeky. It has = some >> quirks that probably need attention. If I type in "5430" I get useful = information (like, it's obsolete) and eventually a page that links to = https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5430.html >> *and* to https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5430, which is = essentially identical but just slightly different. >>=20 >> To be clear, all I'm suggesting is that the link off the search = results page go right to the document. >>=20 >> I.e., when I click RFC 8555 below. >>=20 >> >>=20 >> Brian >>=20 >>=20 >> > >> > -Ekr >> > >> > >> > Regards >> > Brian >> > >> > On 29-Dec-21 13:50, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:28 PM Eric Rescorla >> = wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 4:21 PM tjw ietf = = >> wrote: >> > > >> > > What about when you search expired rfc? The info = page makes a wee bit more sense. >> > > >> > > >> > > Well, RFCs don't expire, so this particular case seems = like a non-issue. Perhaps you mean I-Ds? >> > > In any case, my answer is the same: show the document, = and if you like show a banner with its status, >> > > which in fact is more or less what we do if you finally = click your way there: >> > > >> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-barnes-acme-04 = = > >> > > >> > > Given that this is HTML, we could even show some giant = "expired" overlay if people insist, >> > > like so. >> > > >> > > >> > > Or rather, like so: >> > > https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-web/ = = > >> > > >> > > Note that you already have to go to some effort to get = the DT to even show >> > > you expired drafts, so I don't think people are going to = be that confused. >> > > >> > > My basic thesis is that the vast majority of people want = to read the document, not >> > > look at the metadata, so why are we making them go to a = lot more work. >> > > >> > > -Ekr >> > > >> > > >> > > Sent from my iPhone >> > > >> > >> On Dec 28, 2021, at 19:06, Eric Rescorla = >> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> =EF=BB=BF >> > >> Hi folks, >> > >> >> > >> I'm sure you've noticed that when you search with = the datatracker, the landing page is not the RFC/I-D itself but rather = the datatracker info page, like so: >> > >> >> > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/ = = > >> > >> >> > >> It seems to me that the majority of people who are = trying to find drafts/RFCs don't want this metadata but rather want the = document itself (especially for RFCs, where it's not like there is much = activity.) What would people think of having that be the default, or at = least having two links on the search page, one for the doc and one for = the metadata? >> > >> >> > >> -Ekr >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> = ___________________________________________________________ >> > >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org = > >> > >> This list is for discussion, not for action = requests or bug reports. >> > >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org = > >> > >> * Report tools.ietf.org = > bugs to: = webmaster@tools.ietf.org = > >> > >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: = ietf-action@ietf.org = > >> > >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss = = > >> > > >> > > >> > > ___________________________________________________________ >> > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org = >> > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug = reports. >> > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org >> > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: = webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org = >> > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss = >> > > >> > >>=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --Apple-Mail=_3C8EDFAC-D92D-44DF-AC08-E7AD58707A0D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; 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dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=sandelman.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jhQ_4J79AnY0 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 13:32:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 464B93A091C for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 13:32:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 258A838C96; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 16:37:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 4h7WQVz8hRwZ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 16:37:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A8B38BCE; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 16:37:30 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=sandelman.ca; s=mail; t=1640813850; bh=OiTneCX/in4cIO47rMZcO4zWXRPqSb8o/l4J0SeEkAM=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=DoFXmldqsund4lfM9queGJn734YWH1mDJa4vigYkj9WfWMcLdqt4oraGjVHDvISYm JGLouL0KIBGXD1dn0Il/I9fAdfJVxfWbsfeM6FOrENmRd9wIlrhW15bToQu/sonBI0 Dzhc2fRznD92gVf7CRqfwDV5fm+tJZk+eEGFM4F8E0JbLi3MHCvNE4owMn5S4qEyrP cy05ScU82q7LKmOaG8vW6xNSi3z0VDqp+106z/cvKKa//LshiOQLpdJSi1jUI6X4Vz yqEbIpUIZz/CplGpvkBg0UgHKHIzyajB6oArRWQ7r2XaPEHBtSu1Lj8cZ4LyJKrpgt 1Vni3Ntiu2vkQ== Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CFEA26D; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 16:32:26 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Eric Rescorla , tools-discuss In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Change datatracker landing page to be RFC? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 21:32:35 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric Rescorla wrote: > I'm sure you've noticed that when you search with the datatracker, the > landing page is not the RFC/I-D itself but rather the datatracker info > page, like so: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8555/ I think that did this on purpose a year or so ago for DT and rfc-editor.org, in an attempt to make the meta-data, and choice of formats, more in people'= s face. I agree that maybe it's poor UX, and we shouldn't do this with a banner. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmHM0+oACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVL1wf/UNGLPufOamen8SZBKj22x89hIfMonETyuodxlTI4Kq/Eq4OpRHrasHcm qx5ExE9+SrS+r7O/Q6cR6yUdvZ6cCmS4Gv3iOOsFkmdwGIS5OWHSmxCV9u+nAnxp 6U/IFTQDJtTtOhAfQZyRQ15dMwdbqKor87OY3UbyUfodBmGbbN1NWSgsXePR94Dy j69Um4rRlAp5rWP0L6X2NF46scm6GbqdT00nlyj6IQra9yvyE8qm76UuCEexHaAh 8GWknD0wQUbZu47+aGOQm4wsVtoZsVcMY2HytuW75Pig6ke4hTFo2mmrAnEIO3XS EwjgjSPyz0Z7txX5Q9iOu6yl+lqTCA== =T9zO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--