From nobody Thu Dec 1 04:38:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A6701296BC for ; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 04:38:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.795 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.795 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QmfJJQMTqO5l for ; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 04:38:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41E121296A6 for ; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 04:38:02 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.33,282,1477954800"; d="scan'208,217";a="247636054" Received: from geve.inrialpes.fr ([194.199.28.1]) by mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 01 Dec 2016 13:38:00 +0100 From: Vincent Roca Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A0D42095-A362-4C5F-BAE3-6D339382B5B9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.1 \(3251\)) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 13:37:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: To: "Weixinpeng (Jackie)" References: <6A80DCCD-CEBC-4B92-9CC7-08E5EC586761@inria.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) Archived-At: Cc: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC Conclusion: draft-ietf-tsvwg-tunnel-congestion-feedback-03 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 12:38:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A0D42095-A362-4C5F-BAE3-6D339382B5B9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello Xinpeng, > Thanks for your comments, please see my reply inline. You're welcome. =20 > GENERAL COMMENTS > =20 > 1- In Section 4, it is assumed that "all routers in the tunnel support = ECN." > Isn't it too restrictive? What happens if this is not the case? > And 2 paragraphs later, I read: "In case all interior routers = support ECN". > This is contradictory as no other possibility is considered. > [Wei] The reason why we assume =E2=80=9Call routers in the tunnel = support ECN=E2=80=9D is that the tunnel congestion level only could be = measure based > on the ratio of CE-marked packet when all routers support ECN. For the = contradictory description, I will revise it later. VR: Okay, I understand. One sentence to justify this assumption could be = helpful. > 2- In Section 4, it is required that measurements be made on "the same = span of > packets" between ingress and egress nodes. A potential way to do = that is > suggested in section 5, with cumulative packet counts. However it = cannot > totally solve the problem IMHO. > =20 > Let's imagine that a large burst of packets is sent to the tunnel, = leading > to severe congestion, and that the ingress-to-egress signalling = messages are > all lost. Later on, only a few packets are sent sporadically and = this time > the signalling message reaches the egress node. This latter = concludes that > a certain number of packets have been lost over the **full** = period, but it > cannot determine if congestion happened recently or not. > The period over which the observation is taking place must be small = enough > and recent enough for the mechanism to work correctly. > This is a key point as it means that congestion evaluation (and = mitigation) > can only take place if signalling messages can be exchanged in a = (sufficiently) > reliable way. Is there a solution to guaranty this property? > [Wei] Good question. The possible solution I can imagine now is = providing the signaling message with higher transmission priority. VR: Yes, this could help. In any case, it is essential to have a higher = reliability for this signalling traffic. > 3- Section 6 requires that "congestion management action must be = delayed by > more than a worst-case global RTT". > How is this worst-case global RTT evaluated by the DP (i.e., = ingress node or > controller)? Since this global RTT is end-to-end, only end hosts = can evaluate > it. Is it suggested to do some kind of DPI in the ingress node to = try to identify > request/answer packet pairs in the traffic and therefore measure = the current > RTT? In that case, the host-to-ingress time is ignored and must be = assessed... > How to do that? And what about situations where the DP is not on = the data=20 > path? Do you have in mind another method? > [Wei] I think the global RTT mentioned here would be something like an = empirical value, not the value measured through the traffic by DP. VR: It can perhaps be empirical, but it should not too far from reality. > 4- Does the proposed mechanism work in case of recursive uses of = tunnels (tunnel > in a tunnel)? It's not mentioned IMHO. > [Wei] The description on this will be added later. VR: I'm wondering how safe recursive tunnels can be from a congestion = control point of view, when a given from enters a first tunnel and then inside this tunnel, another = tunnel, both of them applying DP/AP.=20 > 5- Congestion management (actions taken by an AP) is a key aspect and = Section 6 > provides a few hints. I have a few additional comments: > - saying that "congestion management needs to avoid the impacts on = e2e > congestion control" is perhaps inappropriate. I'd rather say that = it must > not **compromise** e2e congestion control. > [Wei] This is a question need to be discussed further. Maybe one = option is: when congestion level is severe in tunnel, the network = should not compromise e2e congestion control, > when the congestion level is below a certain threshold, the network = allow the end host to do congestion control before the network take = action. > Besides, for different kind of flow (e.g. TCP flow, UDP flow), based = on whether the flow itself will act on network congestion the network = can take different action. VR: Why not, but I'm not a CC expert and cannot give any advice from = this point of view. > - It is said that "Congestion Policing is used in data center to = limit...". > This sentence suggests that CP is only meaningful in a data = center. Is it > the case, which would also mean that Circuit Breakers are the = solution to > use in Internet? Could you clarify in the I-D? > [Wei] It=E2=80=99s not like what you understanding here. I will = clarify it later. VR: Thanks. [...] Best regards, Vincent= --Apple-Mail=_A0D42095-A362-4C5F-BAE3-6D339382B5B9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hello Xinpeng,

        =  Thanks for your comments, please see my reply = inline.


You're welcome.
 

GENERAL COMMENTS

 

1- = In Section 4, it is assumed that "all routers in the tunnel support = ECN."

   Isn't it too restrictive? What happens if this = is not the case?

   And 2 paragraphs later, I read: "In case all = interior routers support ECN".

   This is contradictory as no other possibility is = considered.

[Wei] The reason why we assume =E2=80=9Ca= ll routers in the tunnel support ECN=E2=80=9D is that the tunnel = congestion level only could be measure based

on the ratio of CE-marked packet when = all routers support ECN. For the contradictory description, I will = revise it = later.

<= br class=3D"">
VR: Okay, I understand. One sentence to justify = this assumption could be helpful.


2- = In Section 4, it is required that measurements be made on "the same span = of

   packets" between ingress and egress nodes. A = potential way to do that is

   suggested in section 5, with cumulative packet = counts. However it cannot

   totally solve the problem IMHO.

 

   Let's imagine that a large burst of packets is = sent to the tunnel, leading

   to severe congestion, and that the = ingress-to-egress signalling messages are

=

   all lost. Later on, only a few packets are sent = sporadically and this time

   the signalling message reaches the egress node. = This latter concludes that

   a certain number of packets have been lost over = the **full** period, but it

   cannot determine if congestion happened recently = or not.

   The period over which the observation is taking = place must be small enough

   and recent enough for the mechanism to work = correctly.

   This is a key point as it means that congestion = evaluation (and mitigation)

   can only take place if signalling messages can = be exchanged in a (sufficiently)

   reliable way. Is there a solution to guaranty = this property?

[Wei] Good question. The possible = solution I can imagine now is providing the signaling message with = higher transmission = priority.


VR: Yes, this could help. In any case, it is = essential to have a higher reliability for this signalling = traffic.


3- = Section 6 requires that "congestion management action must be delayed = by

   more than a worst-case global RTT".

   How is this worst-case global RTT evaluated by = the DP (i.e., ingress node or

   controller)? Since this global RTT is = end-to-end, only end hosts can evaluate

   it. Is it suggested to do some kind of DPI in = the ingress node to try to identify

   request/answer packet pairs in the traffic and = therefore measure the current

   RTT? In that case, the host-to-ingress time is = ignored and must be assessed...

   How to do that? And what about situations where = the DP is not on the data 

   path? Do you have in mind another method?

[Wei] I think the global RTT mentioned = here would be something like an  empirical value, not the value = measured through  the traffic by = DP.


VR: It can perhaps be empirical, but it should not = too far from reality.


4- = Does the proposed mechanism work in case of recursive uses of tunnels = (tunnel

   in a tunnel)? It's not mentioned IMHO.

[Wei] The description on this will be = added = later.

<= br class=3D"">
VR: I'm wondering how safe recursive tunnels = can be from a congestion control point of view, when
a given = from enters a first tunnel and then inside this tunnel, another tunnel, = both of them applying DP/AP. 


5- = Congestion management (actions taken by an AP) is a key aspect and = Section 6

   provides a few hints. I have a few additional = comments:

   - saying that "congestion management needs to = avoid the impacts on e2e

     congestion control" is perhaps = inappropriate. I'd rather say that it must

     not **compromise** e2e congestion = control.

[Wei] This is a question need to be = discussed further. Maybe one option is: when  congestion level is = severe in tunnel, the network should not compromise e2e congestion control,

when the congestion level is below a = certain threshold, the network  allow the end host to do congestion = control before the network take action.

Besides, for different kind of flow = (e.g. TCP flow, UDP flow), based on whether the flow itself will act on = network congestion  the network can take different = action.

=
VR:  Why not, but I'm not a CC expert and = cannot give any advice from this point of view.


   - It is said that "Congestion Policing is used = in data center to limit...".

     This sentence suggests that CP is only = meaningful in a data center. Is it

     the case, which would also mean that = Circuit Breakers are the solution to

     use in Internet? Could you clarify in the = I-D?

[Wei] It=E2=80=99s not like what you = understanding here. I will clarify it = later.

<= br class=3D"">
VR: Thanks.

[...]

Best regards,

  Vincent
= --Apple-Mail=_A0D42095-A362-4C5F-BAE3-6D339382B5B9-- From nobody Thu Dec 1 05:58:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4554112952E; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 05:58:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Stephen Farrell" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.39.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148060072924.10418.2190580790605513222.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 05:58:49 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: [tsvwg] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 13:58:49 -0000 Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - I'm puzzled by this being informational, it sure seems like something that could/should be a standard. (I'm not objecting, just puzzled.) - Section 2: For an IETF consensus document wouldn't it be good to have some references for claims like "has proven to be a poor operational practice"? Is that actually a statement where we're confident of IETF consensus? (I have no clue, I'm just checking based on the language and the Informational RFC status.) From nobody Thu Dec 1 06:26:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7111129491; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 06:26:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Alissa Cooper" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.39.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148060240974.10450.12126848537161855230.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 06:26:49 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: [tsvwg] Alissa Cooper's Yes on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 14:26:50 -0000 Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for writing this document. One thing I didn't get is why not have a fifth aggregate that CS1 could be mapped into. Is it just because in other standards that have specified aggregates like this, they've gone with four and not specified one for less-than-best-effort? I'm also wondering about the choice to reserve AF42 and AF43. For WebRTC and real-time applications (see table at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos-18#section-5) traffic marked as "Medium" in the table would be treated the same as "Low," which I fear would give incentives for applications to mark their traffic as "High" instead. Unless there is a strong need to reserve AF42 and AF43, it might be nice to just include them. 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Thu, 1 Dec 2016 10:12:15 -0500 To: Stephen Farrell , The IESG Thread-Topic: Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHSS9sNyS0b9ZuOaEuHUSbC+Cm2NKDzJKZw Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 15:12:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <148060072924.10418.2190580790605513222.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <148060072924.10418.2190580790605513222.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.238.44.137] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd03.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public Archived-At: Cc: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 15:12:42 -0000 U3RlcGhlbiwNCg0KVGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgcmV2aWV3IGFuZCBpbnRlcmVzdCBpbiB0aGlzIGRy YWZ0Lg0KDQpEaWZmc2VydiBJbnRlcmNvbiBjb3VsZCBiZWNvbWUgYSBzdGFuZGFyZCwgYWx0aG91 Z2ggSSdkIHJlYWxseSBsaWtlIHRvIHNlZSBicm9hZGVyIG9wZXJhdG9yIGludGVyZXN0IGJlZm9y ZSBnb2luZyB0aGVyZS4NCg0KT24gdGhlICJiYWQgb3BlcmF0aW9uYWwgcHJhY3RpY2UiIHBvaW50 IC0gdGhlIGV2aWRlbmNlIGlzIHRoZSB3aWRlc3ByZWFkIG9wZXJhdG9yIGRlcGxveW1lbnQgb2Yg ImJsZWFjaGluZyINCkRTQ1BzIHRvIHplcm8gYXQgbmV0d29yayBpbnRlcmNvbm5lY3RzLiAgV2Ug Y291bGQgY2l0ZSBSRkMgNzY1Nywgd2hpY2ggY29udGFpbnMgdGhpcyB0ZXh0IGluIFNlY3Rpb24g My4yDQpvbiB0aGF0IHBvaW50Og0KDQogICBTbywgZm9yIHR3byBhcmJpdHJhcnkgbmV0d29yayBl bmRwb2ludHMsIHRoZXJlIGNhbiBiZSBubyBhc3N1cmFuY2UNCiAgIHRoYXQgdGhlIERTQ1Agc2V0 IGF0IHRoZSBzb3VyY2UgZW5kcG9pbnQgd2lsbCBiZSBwcmVzZXJ2ZWQgYW5kDQogICBwcmVzZW50 ZWQgYXQgdGhlIGRlc3RpbmF0aW9uIGVuZHBvaW50LiAgUmF0aGVyLCBpdCBpcyBxdWl0ZSBsaWtl bHkNCiAgIHRoYXQgdGhlIERTQ1Agd2lsbCBiZSBzZXQgdG8gemVybyAoZS5nLiwgYXQgdGhlIGJv dW5kYXJ5IG9mIGEgbmV0d29yaw0KICAgb3BlcmF0b3IgdGhhdCBkaXN0cnVzdHMgb3IgZG9lcyBu b3QgdXNlIHRoZSBEU0NQIGZpZWxkKSBvciB0byBhIHZhbHVlDQogICBkZWVtZWQgc3VpdGFibGUg YnkgYW4gaW5ncmVzcyBjbGFzc2lmaWVyIGZvciB3aGF0ZXZlciBuZXR3b3JrIDUtdHVwbGUNCiAg IGl0IGNhcnJpZXMuDQoNCldvdWxkIHRoYXQgaGVscD8NCg0KVGhhbmtzLCAtLURhdmlkDQoNCj4g LS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsIFttYWls dG86c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQGNzLnRjZC5pZV0NCj4gU2VudDogVGh1cnNkYXksIERlY2VtYmVy IDAxLCAyMDE2IDg6NTkgQU0NCj4gVG86IFRoZSBJRVNHDQo+IENjOiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLXRzdndn LWRpZmZzZXJ2LWludGVyY29uQGlldGYub3JnOyBHb3JyeSBGYWlyaHVyc3Q7IHRzdndnLQ0KPiBj aGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IGdvcnJ5QGVyZy5hYmRuLmFjLnVrOyB0c3Z3Z0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBT dWJqZWN0OiBTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwncyBObyBPYmplY3Rpb24gb24gZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi10c3Z3 Zy1kaWZmc2Vydi1pbnRlcmNvbi0xMjoNCj4gKHdpdGggQ09NTUVOVCkNCj4gDQo+IFN0ZXBoZW4g RmFycmVsbCBoYXMgZW50ZXJlZCB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIGJhbGxvdCBwb3NpdGlvbiBmb3INCj4g ZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi10c3Z3Zy1kaWZmc2Vydi1pbnRlcmNvbi0xMjogTm8gT2JqZWN0aW9uDQo+IA0K PiBXaGVuIHJlc3BvbmRpbmcsIHBsZWFzZSBrZWVwIHRoZSBzdWJqZWN0IGxpbmUgaW50YWN0IGFu ZCByZXBseSB0byBhbGwNCj4gZW1haWwgYWRkcmVzc2VzIGluY2x1ZGVkIGluIHRoZSBUbyBhbmQg Q0MgbGluZXMuIChGZWVsIGZyZWUgdG8gY3V0IHRoaXMNCj4gaW50cm9kdWN0b3J5IHBhcmFncmFw aCwgaG93ZXZlci4pDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gUGxlYXNlIHJlZmVyIHRvIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYu b3JnL2llc2cvc3RhdGVtZW50L2Rpc2N1c3MtY3JpdGVyaWEuaHRtbA0KPiBmb3IgbW9yZSBpbmZv cm1hdGlvbiBhYm91dCBJRVNHIERJU0NVU1MgYW5kIENPTU1FTlQgcG9zaXRpb25zLg0KPiANCj4g DQo+IFRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCwgYWxvbmcgd2l0aCBvdGhlciBiYWxsb3QgcG9zaXRpb25zLCBjYW4g YmUgZm91bmQgaGVyZToNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvZHJhZnQt aWV0Zi10c3Z3Zy1kaWZmc2Vydi1pbnRlcmNvbi8NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LQ0KPiBDT01NRU5UOg0KPiAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gLSBJJ20gcHV6emxlZCBi eSB0aGlzIGJlaW5nIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uYWwsIGl0IHN1cmUgc2VlbXMNCj4gbGlrZSBzb21ldGhp bmcgdGhhdCBjb3VsZC9zaG91bGQgYmUgYSBzdGFuZGFyZC4gKEknbSBub3QNCj4gb2JqZWN0aW5n LCBqdXN0IHB1enpsZWQuKQ0KPiANCj4gLSBTZWN0aW9uIDI6IEZvciBhbiBJRVRGIGNvbnNlbnN1 cyBkb2N1bWVudCB3b3VsZG4ndCBpdCBiZQ0KPiBnb29kIHRvIGhhdmUgc29tZSByZWZlcmVuY2Vz IGZvciBjbGFpbXMgbGlrZSAiaGFzIHByb3ZlbiB0bw0KPiBiZSBhIHBvb3Igb3BlcmF0aW9uYWwg cHJhY3RpY2UiPyBJcyB0aGF0IGFjdHVhbGx5IGENCj4gc3RhdGVtZW50IHdoZXJlIHdlJ3JlIGNv bmZpZGVudCBvZiBJRVRGIGNvbnNlbnN1cz8gKEkgaGF2ZQ0KPiBubyBjbHVlLCBJJ20ganVzdCBj aGVja2luZyBiYXNlZCBvbiB0aGUgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgYW5kIHRoZQ0KPiBJbmZvcm1hdGlvbmFsIFJG QyBzdGF0dXMuKQ0KPiANCg0K From nobody Thu Dec 1 07:32:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0D67129598; 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Thu, 1 Dec 2016 15:32:25 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aVhmxOnm4BRd; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 15:32:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.87.48.210] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E2268BE5B; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 15:32:22 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1480606343; bh=5ZibNdJnLdYWPQxb8po4CEo2mkp2YHzrNiOOZo4XUgE=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=pp24L3hXpCR9lr4YEWPp3BJdxcmaIf3Komya6fSiijyaPyGJRRpJFP/cXRMUEduKG 4wekbTU42y0jcjx8Y1CKxs32DqMe/zyE+AyLrfBzCMt/VTtzDVjWUC8R+DL58Jm5Pn cclapSsQYblRJ9OMheuoNoUx60jTVsa/Ig09XQPw= To: "Black, David" , The IESG References: <148060072924.10418.2190580790605513222.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <84337d9f-5e66-8580-ea8a-55aae278a371@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 15:32:23 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms080504010105040208090302" Archived-At: Cc: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 15:32:30 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080504010105040208090302 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi David, On 01/12/16 15:12, Black, David wrote: > Stephen, >=20 > Thanks for the review and interest in this draft. >=20 > Diffserv Intercon could become a standard, although I'd really like to = see broader operator interest before going there. >=20 > On the "bad operational practice" point - the evidence is the widesprea= d operator deployment of "bleaching" > DSCPs to zero at network interconnects. We could cite RFC 7657, which = contains this text in Section 3.2 > on that point: >=20 > So, for two arbitrary network endpoints, there can be no assurance > that the DSCP set at the source endpoint will be preserved and > presented at the destination endpoint. Rather, it is quite likely > that the DSCP will be set to zero (e.g., at the boundary of a networ= k > operator that distrusts or does not use the DSCP field) or to a valu= e > deemed suitable by an ingress classifier for whatever network 5-tupl= e > it carries. >=20 > Would that help? Not really, but not because it's a bad thing to add:-) The thing I don't get is whether or not the claim in the document is something that has IETF consensus or not. That's because I'm ignorant about that topic, so I'm just as happy to believe you when you tell me that it's fine, without text changes. Cheers, S. >=20 > Thanks, --David >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 8:59 AM >> To: The IESG >> Cc: draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org; Gorry Fairhurst; tsvw= g- >> chairs@ietf.org; gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; tsvwg@ietf.org >> Subject: Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-i= ntercon-12: >> (with COMMENT) >> >> Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: No Objection >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut thi= s >> introductory paragraph, however.) >> >> >> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.h= tml >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon/ >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= >> COMMENT: >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= >> >> >> - I'm puzzled by this being informational, it sure seems >> like something that could/should be a standard. (I'm not >> objecting, just puzzled.) >> >> - Section 2: For an IETF consensus document wouldn't it be >> good to have some references for claims like "has proven to >> be a poor operational practice"? Is that actually a >> statement where we're confident of IETF consensus? (I have >> no clue, I'm just checking based on the language and the >> Informational RFC status.) >> >=20 --------------ms080504010105040208090302 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC CvIwggUIMIID8KADAgECAhBPzaE7pzYviUJyhmHTFBdnMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMHUxCzAJ BgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSkwJwYDVQQLEyBTdGFydENvbSBD ZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTEjMCEGA1UEAxMaU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMSBDbGll bnQgQ0EwHhcNMTYwMjA5MDkyODE1WhcNMTcwMjA5MDkyODE1WjBOMSIwIAYDVQQDDBlzdGVw aGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllMSgwJgYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhlzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxA Y3MudGNkLmllMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAtuC0rYze/2JinSra C9F2RjGdQZjNALLcW9C3WKTwYII3wBslobmHuPEYE5JaGItmzuKnAW619R1rD/kfoNWC19N3 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on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 15:33:04 -0000 QWxpc3NhLA0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHRoZSByZXZpZXcgYW5kIGNvbW1lbnRzOg0KDQo+IE9uZSB0 aGluZyBJIGRpZG4ndCBnZXQgaXMgd2h5IG5vdCBoYXZlIGEgZmlmdGggYWdncmVnYXRlIHRoYXQg Q1MxIGNvdWxkDQo+IGJlIG1hcHBlZCBpbnRvLiBJcyBpdCBqdXN0IGJlY2F1c2UgaW4gb3RoZXIg c3RhbmRhcmRzIHRoYXQgaGF2ZSBzcGVjaWZpZWQNCj4gYWdncmVnYXRlcyBsaWtlIHRoaXMsIHRo ZXkndmUgZ29uZSB3aXRoIGZvdXIgYW5kIG5vdCBzcGVjaWZpZWQgb25lIGZvcg0KPiBsZXNzLXRo YW4tYmVzdC1lZmZvcnQ/DQoNCkF2YWlsYWJsZSBNUExTIGxhYmVsIHNwYWNlIGNvbnNpZGVyYXRp b25zIChpLmUuLCBsYWNrIG9mIHNwYWNlKSBhcmUgYSBtYWpvcg0KcmVhc29uIHRvIGxpbWl0IHRo ZSBudW1iZXIgb2YgYWdncmVnYXRlcyB0byBmb3VyLCBhbmQgUkZDIDUxMjcgZGlkDQpsaWtld2lz ZSBmb3Igc2ltaWxhciByZWFzb25zLg0KDQpCZXlvbmQgdGhhdCwgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gbG9uZ2Vy 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aWNhdGlvbnMgdG8gbWFyayB0aGVpcg0KPiB0cmFmZmljIGFzICJIaWdoIiBpbnN0ZWFkLiBVbmxl c3MgdGhlcmUgaXMgYSBzdHJvbmcgbmVlZCB0byByZXNlcnZlIEFGNDINCj4gYW5kIEFGNDMsIGl0 IG1pZ2h0IGJlIG5pY2UgdG8ganVzdCBpbmNsdWRlIHRoZW0uDQo+IA0KDQo= From nobody Thu Dec 1 07:39:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 857D8129416; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 07:39:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); domainkeys=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.from=David.Black@dell.com header.d=dell.com; dkim=pass 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(PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WV4050QMJ1FEtdodhLIwIeVG5jwhsXnUnOvaZPVM0x8=; b=p0NlsNmUzuATHnLNS3+gOjkTaWCLsdxDNl7VDTGNTGiwDhuDQc2wNp4VZ+gtHkiG1C W2nmwHlc1OgI0plP12BWa/b/o03GJuClxSsgj+6VcrX21ZLES5UIleAqKMDG7sNMxriI Nmxp59r/e6zPTfy12bZ+jw5D9RiITMLZ/ep5lpy5kwftudOozNovCRMktjTdOin6Oy8E k34NKTdYca9UmYdFNyGnMjcZ4rirOPXCg6Z4jvGj5qyPRCxQYrOITa8aF1SUkdRteSIJ 2eREELU2/m5/kbmk3VRzYRNlE4NzphqDZUBJRoskMQGW61GXCP1Fu/j7ONd+gypsk2qN 1UVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WV4050QMJ1FEtdodhLIwIeVG5jwhsXnUnOvaZPVM0x8=; b=ZlBgGYxwD3I6PWnErDLiSdCwnqyB5+NkRIipiIk4ikPgeNpl/lEY4XqAupUBltittD 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<77cb5f92-4fdd-8362-8c3c-2fdc92af2444@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 08:54:13 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 20:07:31 -0000 On 02/12/2016 04:38, Black, David wrote: > Hi Stephen, > > We may be talking past each other - the "has proven to be a poor > operational practice" statement is intended to be a "running code" > observation that Joel (OPS AD) should be able to confirm. As a former diffserv WG chair: When we put that provision into the original diffserv model, we were trying to give diffserv a chance of running end to end via ISPs that didn't support diffserv - effectively by saying that those ISPs would provide default service for the packets concerned. But in practice, ISPs that have done anything at all about diffserv (i.e. have not simply run their routers with factory defaults) have mainly *chosen* to zero any DSCPs that they don't explicitly support, to prevent unexpected behaviours. I don't think that statement requires consensus, because it's a fact. But "poor" is a judgment call, so Stephen has a point. s/poor/unusual/ would be factual. Brian > > If you would like to see "rough consensus" on this, I may need to > dust off my Kevlar (fire-resistant) vest ;-). > > Thanks, --David > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 10:32 AM >> To: Black, David; The IESG >> Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv- >> intercon@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon- >> 12: (with COMMENT) >> >> >> Hi David, >> >> On 01/12/16 15:12, Black, David wrote: >>> Stephen, >>> >>> Thanks for the review and interest in this draft. >>> >>> Diffserv Intercon could become a standard, although I'd really like to see >> broader operator interest before going there. >>> >>> On the "bad operational practice" point - the evidence is the widespread >> operator deployment of "bleaching" >>> DSCPs to zero at network interconnects. We could cite RFC 7657, which >> contains this text in Section 3.2 >>> on that point: >>> >>> So, for two arbitrary network endpoints, there can be no assurance >>> that the DSCP set at the source endpoint will be preserved and >>> presented at the destination endpoint. Rather, it is quite likely >>> that the DSCP will be set to zero (e.g., at the boundary of a network >>> operator that distrusts or does not use the DSCP field) or to a value >>> deemed suitable by an ingress classifier for whatever network 5-tuple >>> it carries. >>> >>> Would that help? >> >> Not really, but not because it's a bad thing to add:-) >> >> The thing I don't get is whether or not the claim in >> the document is something that has IETF consensus or >> not. That's because I'm ignorant about that topic, so >> I'm just as happy to believe you when you tell me that >> it's fine, without text changes. >> >> Cheers, >> S. >> >>> >>> Thanks, --David >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >>>> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 8:59 AM >>>> To: The IESG >>>> Cc: draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org; Gorry Fairhurst; tsvwg- >>>> chairs@ietf.org; gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; tsvwg@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon- >> 12: >>>> (with COMMENT) >>>> >>>> Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for >>>> draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: No Objection >>>> >>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >>>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>> >>>> >>>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>> >>>> >>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> COMMENT: >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> - I'm puzzled by this being informational, it sure seems >>>> like something that could/should be a standard. (I'm not >>>> objecting, just puzzled.) >>>> >>>> - Section 2: For an IETF consensus document wouldn't it be >>>> good to have some references for claims like "has proven to >>>> be a poor operational practice"? Is that actually a >>>> statement where we're confident of IETF consensus? (I have >>>> no clue, I'm just checking based on the language and the >>>> Informational RFC status.) >>>> >>> > From nobody Thu Dec 1 14:36:17 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 501631298C1 for ; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 14:36:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kAMhRe5JFy3s for ; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 14:36:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9211129510 for ; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 14:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id C7F47B80461; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 14:36:10 -0800 (PST) To: randall@lakerest.net, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, ietf@kuehlewind.net, gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, david.black@emc.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20161201223610.C7F47B80461@rfc-editor.org> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 14:36:10 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, j.pourtet@gmail.com, tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: [tsvwg] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4960 (4876) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 22:36:14 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4960, "Stream Control Transmission Protocol". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=4960&eid=4876 -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: Julien Pourtet Section: 5.1.5. Original Text ------------- 3) Compare the port numbers and the Verification Tag contained within the COOKIE ECHO chunk to the actual port numbers and the Verification Tag within the SCTP common header of the received packet. If these values do not match, the packet MUST be silently discarded. Corrected Text -------------- 3) Compare the port numbers and the Verification Tag contained within the TCB data carried in the State Cookie to the actual port numbers and the Verification Tag within the SCTP common header of the received packet. If these values do not match, the packet MUST be silently discarded. Notes ----- The comparison has to be performed between the values found in the SCTP common header and what is inside the TCB carried in the State Cookie. The current phrasing can lead to think that there are Verifcation Tag and port number fields within the COOKIE ECHO chunk yet outside the State Cookie. Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC4960 (draft-ietf-tsvwg-2960bis-05) -------------------------------------- Title : Stream Control Transmission Protocol Publication Date : September 2007 Author(s) : R. Stewart, Ed. Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : Transport Area Working Group Area : Transport Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Thu Dec 1 17:00:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6752B129A1D; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 17:00:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); domainkeys=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.from=David.Black@dell.com header.d=dell.com; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dell.com header.b=jqKCnVyA; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message 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[10.238.44.137] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd52.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public Archived-At: Cc: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 01:00:29 -0000 PiBCdXQgInBvb3IiIGlzIGEganVkZ21lbnQgY2FsbCwgc28gU3RlcGhlbiBoYXMgYSBwb2ludC4g cy9wb29yL3VudXN1YWwvDQo+IHdvdWxkIGJlIGZhY3R1YWwuDQoNClN1cmUsIG9yIHNvbWV0aGlu ZyBsaWtlICJoYXMgbm90IGJlZW4gd2lkZWx5IGRlcGxveWVkIGluIHByYWN0aWNlLiINCg0KVGhh bmtzLCAtLURhdmlkDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogQnJp 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IElzIHRoYXQgYWN0dWFsbHkgYQ0KPiA+Pj4+IHN0YXRlbWVudCB3aGVyZSB3ZSdyZSBjb25maWRl bnQgb2YgSUVURiBjb25zZW5zdXM/IChJIGhhdmUNCj4gPj4+PiBubyBjbHVlLCBJJ20ganVzdCBj aGVja2luZyBiYXNlZCBvbiB0aGUgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgYW5kIHRoZQ0KPiA+Pj4+IEluZm9ybWF0aW9u YWwgUkZDIHN0YXR1cy4pDQo+ID4+Pj4NCj4gPj4+DQo+ID4NCg== From nobody Thu Dec 1 18:13:11 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52B2E129A5D; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 18:13:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hxk0FLT72J_Z; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 18:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 538B612944E; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 18:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbp-4.local ([IPv6:2601:647:4201:9e61:74b9:1e46:8869:d0e]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id uB22CVS5076826 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 2 Dec 2016 02:12:32 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) X-Authentication-Warning: nagasaki.bogus.com: Host [IPv6:2601:647:4201:9e61:74b9:1e46:8869:d0e] claimed to be mbp-4.local To: "Black, David" , Brian E Carpenter , Stephen Farrell , The IESG References: <148060072924.10418.2190580790605513222.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <84337d9f-5e66-8580-ea8a-55aae278a371@cs.tcd.ie> <77cb5f92-4fdd-8362-8c3c-2fdc92af2444@gmail.com> From: joel jaeggli Message-ID: <41c3edf7-8faf-4742-483f-387a30babf2f@bogus.com> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 18:12:30 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:50.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/50.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k1moNTp9KcnKrA8l1tdtj6FRKJsEIe3at" Archived-At: Cc: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 02:13:10 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --k1moNTp9KcnKrA8l1tdtj6FRKJsEIe3at Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Nesr13r5rEKa1tW6BnkbuM9suWxJURLQc"; protected-headers="v1" From: joel jaeggli To: "Black, David" , Brian E Carpenter , Stephen Farrell , The IESG Cc: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Message-ID: <41c3edf7-8faf-4742-483f-387a30babf2f@bogus.com> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with COMMENT) References: <148060072924.10418.2190580790605513222.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <84337d9f-5e66-8580-ea8a-55aae278a371@cs.tcd.ie> <77cb5f92-4fdd-8362-8c3c-2fdc92af2444@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: --Nesr13r5rEKa1tW6BnkbuM9suWxJURLQc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US On 12/1/16 4:59 PM, Black, David wrote: >> But "poor" is a judgment call, so Stephen has a point. s/poor/unusual/= >> would be factual. > Sure, or something like "has not been widely deployed in practice." The fact that it is in practice unworkable is trivially defensible. It in fact does not work, My signals are not you signals, and I never agreed to prioritize your traffic over mine, I don't control the networks over which my packets flow, Encapsulation makes them invisible even when I do, the bits are mutable and therefore are recycled, and so on, it's turtles all the way down. > Thanks, --David > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 2:54 PM >> To: Black, David; Stephen Farrell; The IESG >> Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tsvwg-diff= serv- >> intercon@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvw= g-diffserv- >> intercon-12: (with COMMENT) >> >> On 02/12/2016 04:38, Black, David wrote: >>> Hi Stephen, >>> >>> We may be talking past each other - the "has proven to be a poor >>> operational practice" statement is intended to be a "running code" >>> observation that Joel (OPS AD) should be able to confirm. >> As a former diffserv WG chair: >> >> When we put that provision into the original diffserv model, we were >> trying to give diffserv a chance of running end to end via ISPs that >> didn't support diffserv - effectively by saying that those ISPs would >> provide default service for the packets concerned. But in practice, >> ISPs that have done anything at all about diffserv (i.e. have not simp= ly >> run their routers with factory defaults) have mainly *chosen* to zero >> any DSCPs that they don't explicitly support, to prevent unexpected >> behaviours. I don't think that statement requires consensus, because i= t's >> a fact. >> >> But "poor" is a judgment call, so Stephen has a point. s/poor/unusual/= >> would be factual. >> >> Brian >> >>> If you would like to see "rough consensus" on this, I may need to >>> dust off my Kevlar (fire-resistant) vest ;-). >>> >>> Thanks, --David >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >>>> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 10:32 AM >>>> To: Black, David; The IESG >>>> Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tsvwg-di= ffserv- >>>> intercon@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diff= serv- >> intercon- >>>> 12: (with COMMENT) >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi David, >>>> >>>> On 01/12/16 15:12, Black, David wrote: >>>>> Stephen, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the review and interest in this draft. >>>>> >>>>> Diffserv Intercon could become a standard, although I'd really like= to see >>>> broader operator interest before going there. >>>>> On the "bad operational practice" point - the evidence is the wides= pread >>>> operator deployment of "bleaching" >>>>> DSCPs to zero at network interconnects. We could cite RFC 7657, wh= ich >>>> contains this text in Section 3.2 >>>>> on that point: >>>>> >>>>> So, for two arbitrary network endpoints, there can be no assuran= ce >>>>> that the DSCP set at the source endpoint will be preserved and >>>>> presented at the destination endpoint. Rather, it is quite like= ly >>>>> that the DSCP will be set to zero (e.g., at the boundary of a ne= twork >>>>> operator that distrusts or does not use the DSCP field) or to a = value >>>>> deemed suitable by an ingress classifier for whatever network 5-= tuple >>>>> it carries. >>>>> >>>>> Would that help? >>>> Not really, but not because it's a bad thing to add:-) >>>> >>>> The thing I don't get is whether or not the claim in >>>> the document is something that has IETF consensus or >>>> not. That's because I'm ignorant about that topic, so >>>> I'm just as happy to believe you when you tell me that >>>> it's fine, without text changes. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> S. >>>> >>>>> Thanks, --David >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 8:59 AM >>>>>> To: The IESG >>>>>> Cc: draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org; Gorry Fairhurst; = tsvwg- >>>>>> chairs@ietf.org; gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; tsvwg@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffse= rv- >> intercon- >>>> 12: >>>>>> (with COMMENT) >>>>>> >>>>>> Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for >>>>>> draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: No Objection >>>>>> >>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to = all >>>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut= this >>>>>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criter= ia.html >>>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here= : >>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-interco= n/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >>>>>> COMMENT: >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - I'm puzzled by this being informational, it sure seems >>>>>> like something that could/should be a standard. (I'm not >>>>>> objecting, just puzzled.) >>>>>> >>>>>> - Section 2: For an IETF consensus document wouldn't it be >>>>>> good to have some references for claims like "has proven to >>>>>> be a poor operational practice"? Is that actually a >>>>>> statement where we're confident of IETF consensus? (I have >>>>>> no clue, I'm just checking based on the language and the >>>>>> Informational RFC status.) >>>>>> --Nesr13r5rEKa1tW6BnkbuM9suWxJURLQc-- --k1moNTp9KcnKrA8l1tdtj6FRKJsEIe3at Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAlhA2I8ACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrLNOQCfcBQXDJ7/U1IXHUVW13u0BK4b M7oAn3bSWdViKZ3mDN/HmJkORt3Y7mGy =Yfji -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k1moNTp9KcnKrA8l1tdtj6FRKJsEIe3at-- From nobody Thu Dec 1 23:42:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D411294B8 for ; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 23:42:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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s=selector1-ericsson-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=eb5NftZxvN2KqkasYnM2DQ4WBeQqtGPu151NnIO/9gE=; b=ZyW18iDcDsEVh63c1uefLofkTuaQb3oAhfT54fx/g+x1X1GemLkAl9XV9wu40HmTUlsuSjDrpcGHNhOZ6VZpeiMGnTevijk/IUKCByoYNKuaGUJBktOCZMGZFnJ+aabROIqHK8kAWCqTa+n18zhYmjIIPDxsUR2dihojg0zHVLU= Received: from DBXPR07MB351.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.12.151) by DBXPR07MB351.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.141.12.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.761.5; Fri, 2 Dec 2016 07:42:18 +0000 Received: from DBXPR07MB351.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.12.151]) by DBXPR07MB351.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.12.151]) with mapi id 15.01.0761.012; Fri, 2 Dec 2016 07:42:18 +0000 From: Ingemar Johansson S To: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: ECN experimentation draft - support adoption Thread-Index: AdJMb1DBoBIOhH4zTT+SqHVa44qjig== Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 07:42:18 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com; 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charset=3D"utf-8" >=20 > I support TSVWG adoption of this draft as its author (individual comment,= not > in WG chair role), and I'd ask anyone else who is interested in seeing th= is > draft and the experiments that it enables progress to also please send a = note > supporting adoption of this draft to the TSVWG list. >=20 > Thanks in advance, --David >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Black, David > > Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 4:25 PM > > To: tsvwg@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] The TSVWG WG has placed draft-black-tsvwg-ecn- > > experimentation in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" > > > > Written as draft author, *not* WG chair, here are a few more details. > > > > > Following discussion at the IETF meeting in Seoul, this email starts = a > > > formal adoption call for the above process draft. The draft, if adopt= ed > > > will form the *BASIS* for a PS Update to RFC 3168, allowing the way f= or > > > experimentation using the ECT codepoint by publication of Experimenta= l > > > RFCs. The document also proposes ending the previous IETF experiment > > > known as the "ECN Nonce". > > > > This draft also enables experimentation with different sender responses > > to ECN-detected congestion (CE-marked packets) by comparison to drops, > > and with use of ECN on TCP control packets and retransmitted packets. > > Drafts for these two areas of experimentation are being handled by > > the TCPM WG - in contrast, L4S is expected to be handled by the TSVWG > > WG. Also, the ECT codepoint intended for experimentation is ECT(1). > > > > I want to emphasize "*BASIS*" above. This is only an adoption call - t= he > text > > in this draft will almost certainly be modified before the WG is done w= ith > this > > draft. > > > > Opposing adoption of this draft is effectively taking the position that= one or > > more of the referenced experiments are very bad ideas that should not b= e > > pursued. > > > > Thanks, --David > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: IETF Secretariat [mailto:ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org] > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:27 PM > > > To: tsvwg@ietf.org; tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org; draft-black-tsvwg-ecn- > > > experimentation@ietf.org > > > Subject: The TSVWG WG has placed draft-black-tsvwg-ecn- > experimentation in > > > state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" > > > > > > > > > The TSVWG WG has placed draft-black-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation in > state > > > Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Gorry Fairhurst) > > > > > > The document is available at > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-black-tsvwg-ecn- > experimentation/ > > > > > > > > > Comment: > > > Following discussion at the IETF meeting in Seoul, this email starts = a > > > formal adoption call for the above process draft. The draft, if adopt= ed > > > will form the *BASIS* for a PS Update to RFC 3168, allowing the way f= or > > > experimentation using the ECT codepoint by publication of Experimenta= l > > > RFCs. The document also proposes ending the previous IETF experiment > > > known as the "ECN Nonce". > > > > > > Comments are welcome on the list to indicate if such a document is > > > considered useful for the IETF to publish, or expressing concerns abo= ut > > > any of these topics. You may also send comments on the current text > (and > > > these are welcome), but, if you do, please also clearly indicate if y= ou > > > support the progress of work on this topic within TSVWG. > > > > > > All comments need to be received by 9th Dec 2016, after which a decis= ion > > > will be made on how to progress. (You may read about the adoption > process > > > in RFC7221.) >=20 From nobody Fri Dec 2 04:31:22 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5213128DF6; Fri, 2 Dec 2016 04:31:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.216 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.216 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telekom.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3aobeypUhN6b; Fri, 2 Dec 2016 04:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout34.telekom.de 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mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B9EC67EA29; Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:34:56 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 13:34:56 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <148060240974.10450.12126848537161855230.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "Black, David" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: Gorry Fairhurst , "tsvwg@ietf.org" , IESG , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Alissa Cooper's Yes on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2016 18:35:03 -0000 Hi David, > On Dec 1, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Black, David = wrote: >=20 > Alissa, >=20 > Thanks for the review and comments: >=20 >> One thing I didn't get is why not have a fifth aggregate that CS1 = could >> be mapped into. Is it just because in other standards that have = specified >> aggregates like this, they've gone with four and not specified one = for >> less-than-best-effort? >=20 > Available MPLS label space considerations (i.e., lack of space) are a = major > reason to limit the number of aggregates to four, and RFC 5127 did > likewise for similar reasons. >=20 > Beyond that, there is no longer IETF consensus that CS1 should be used = for > the traffic class variously known as Lower Effort, = less-than-best-effort or > scavenger, see: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb/ . Got it, thanks for the explanation. >=20 >> I'm also wondering about the choice to reserve AF42 and AF43. For = WebRTC >> and real-time applications (see table at >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos-18#section-5) >> traffic marked as "Medium" in the table would be treated the same as >> "Low," which I fear would give incentives for applications to mark = their >> traffic as "High" instead. Unless there is a strong need to reserve = AF42 >> and AF43, it might be nice to just include them. >=20 > Well, that rtcweb-qos draft uses 11 DSCPs, so there are a number of = distinctions > that have to be lost in order to get to 4 traffic aggregates. In = contrast to AF33, > which is reserved by this draft, the text on AF42 and AF43 is weaker: >=20 > The AF42 and AF43 PHBs could be added if there > is a need for three-color marked Multimedia. >=20 > Are you asking for these two to be added now because WebRTC is = expected to > make extensive use of two- and three-color marking (e.g., of video = streams)? Well, the expectation is that WebRTC implementations will make use of = AF42 and AF43. I can=E2=80=99t predict how extensively. Alissa >=20 > Thanks, --David >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in] >> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 9:27 AM >> To: The IESG >> Cc: draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org; Gorry Fairhurst; = tsvwg- >> chairs@ietf.org; gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; tsvwg@ietf.org >> Subject: Alissa Cooper's Yes on = draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with >> COMMENT) >>=20 >> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: Yes >>=20 >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >>=20 >>=20 >> Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>=20 >>=20 >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon/ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> Thanks for writing this document. >>=20 >> One thing I didn't get is why not have a fifth aggregate that CS1 = could >> be mapped into. Is it just because in other standards that have = specified >> aggregates like this, they've gone with four and not specified one = for >> less-than-best-effort? >>=20 >> I'm also wondering about the choice to reserve AF42 and AF43. For = WebRTC >> and real-time applications (see table at >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos-18#section-5) >> traffic marked as "Medium" in the table would be treated the same as >> "Low," which I fear would give incentives for applications to mark = their >> traffic as "High" instead. Unless there is a strong need to reserve = AF42 >> and AF43, it might be nice to just include them. >>=20 >=20 From nobody Sun Dec 4 05:25:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B8C1294F1 for ; Sun, 4 Dec 2016 05:25:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.69 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.69 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=tieto.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vhh_GG7dt7ng for ; Sun, 4 Dec 2016 05:25:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x235.google.com (mail-io0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D479B1294F6 for ; Sun, 4 Dec 2016 05:25:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io0-x235.google.com with SMTP id c21so512031032ioj.1 for ; Sun, 04 Dec 2016 05:25:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tieto.com; s=google; h=from:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:thread-index:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JvObAgUsaZyv2NG97rWK7IAjdPLOdTzs7GoRn46CiF8=; b=z0Tfz/ad8V286QFNUAEp8hNWGdj14wpb8xzTzRONJzdH0bhy9TqKuVUA3k+rVbj631 ScjOvVUra/2tzNt8RzvxCxJz5gWVq49Ld15b+UT7xoRCiyCEHGhqa0jv8H8HuxSSBQ5+ jsfAcmda8qezt3Wv5ncAAKXLwnQMQ9gC5gfB4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:references:in-reply-to:mime-version :thread-index:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JvObAgUsaZyv2NG97rWK7IAjdPLOdTzs7GoRn46CiF8=; b=KTFrS/EUwmbM7lykwPVPE8aNx2naqW64nb32uJPKpT7JowDXdu2dgqQRgjXW153dV0 FrDboUx3/1OgbB7RAE9gkVx93+0D+E8l01AdhfK0CHTvIqGSAXrCA4z0LSdClriCOn1G vSUzVRmETf50kfU5J14DZ6dXeC75MmyGenwTksO3JNnmzcNOuWYtxtc+LVL47bjfH64q mApRJdHCFCsRyUYQy7DzGInciIveNBrPPvG86rSGDUxxlYt/CSpYMxfePh6CRzmoRPWO rv4U/12B5i1L6nA5fv3FbSlmssxe5K0WoX+b5b3cRtkMbq7v+HNt5qirX5kASdzc1WkD cHQg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC03BaIeIDl9ha44UZhTrg6HBL0KDyidkjdXwl6eU1m6xv16vV6DJK5QH4FQiQIcPfKNfIK/vhiIOsrLt5AOcIj8BchendjDuI28kaBWEABrJ6487dF4CcbhVkIcnMY2OepJ7 X-Received: by 10.107.204.5 with SMTP id c5mr42747814iog.143.1480857936208; Sun, 04 Dec 2016 05:25:36 -0800 (PST) From: Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen References: <73e2a785b099e897990704d3fdd8c078@mail.gmail.com> <6f068e27c5c0c61a87c5daed27cb0da3.squirrel@server.dnsblock1.com> <7599733a-d728-0d7d-3615-e8d3b4ec70c6@bobbriscoe.net> In-Reply-To: <7599733a-d728-0d7d-3615-e8d3b4ec70c6@bobbriscoe.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQHBY0DbWwZKHzmeTxjjyulSO/JaxAHVsgGtAPyDYwgCI8Q2MgKBTbZaoN3bVvA= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2016 14:25:33 +0100 Message-ID: To: Bob Briscoe , "Black, David" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1b7a6c4042600542d51b78 X-DomainID: tieto.com Archived-At: Cc: iccrg@irtf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tsvwg] [iccrg] Policing and L4S WAS RE: BBR and other congestion control mechanisms X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2016 13:25:44 -0000 --94eb2c1b7a6c4042600542d51b78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI, Just to be clear. I support the ecn work and potential adoption of this work. My comments do not go in the disqualifying the work, rather the opposite. Inline below. BR, Karen *From:* iccrg [mailto:iccrg-bounces@irtf.org] *On Behalf Of *Bob Briscoe *Sent:* 1. december 2016 02:23 *To:* Black, David ; Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen < karen.nielsen@tieto.com> *Cc:* iccrg@irtf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org *Subject:* Re: [iccrg] [tsvwg] Policing and L4S WAS RE: BBR and other congestion control mechanisms David, On 19/11/16 04:19, Black, David wrote: Commenting as an individual (not WG chair), at least for now ... If I read this correctly, that L4S is not compatible with Diffserv-style bandwidth policing and token buckets in particular, Well, no. L4S is not incompatible with Diffserv-style bandwidth policing. Because, on loss the L4S requirements say a source must fall back to a Classic loss-response (e.g. Reno, Cubic, or something equivalent if it's a real-time transport). So a tb bandwidth policer (2-colour, 3-colour, 1-rate, 2-rate, etc) will work just fine to limit an L4S source. I think what Karen meant was the other way round: That an L4S source will not get L4S service from a tb bandwidth policer, *[Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen] Yes that was what I was addressing.* just as it won't get L4S service from a non-L4S bottleneck router or switch. Precisely because L4S falls back to non-L4S (Classic) behaviour in both cases; whenever it gets a loss. *[Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen] And you=E2=80=99re doing a great deal to p= rovide mechanisms that routers can deploy to support good interworking with ECN/l4s.* *We need the same for policiers.* *It is not really enough that ECN/l4s does not do worse than classic where there is a drop policier, if this often can be the case.* Interaction with Policing is in the L4S architecture doc (which used to be the L4S problem statement): See section 8.1 Traffic (Non-)Policing , which is in section 8 'Security Considerations'. Section 8.2 'Latency Friendliness' explains that some operators might introduce burst policing for L4S. However, 8.2 recommends that we start without policing and instead we recommend ways to get a good service while minimizing burstiness. I call it 'latency friendliness', because it's based on "social pressure"; somewhat like the traditional approach to TCP friendliness, where we recommend good algorithms in the expectation they will avoid the need for policing. But it doesn't preclude operators deploying policers. *[Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen**] I think that ECN would be much more powerful if one could device how to make policing interwork with it.* *I would rather like to see ECN not as a replacement of DiffServ, but as a supplement as also indicated in section 5.2 of the draft (the underlined parts below):* Diffserv: Diffserv addresses the problem of bandwidth apportionment for important traffic as well as queuing latency for delay- sensitive traffic. L4S solely addresses the problem of queuing latency. Diffserv will still be necessary where important traffic requires priority (e.g. for commercial reasons, or for protection of critical infrastructure traffic). Nonetheless, if there are ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Diffserv classes for important traffic, the L4S approach can ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ provide low latency for _all_ traffic within each Diffserv class^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (including the case where there is only one Diffserv class). *Something else, suddenly in this paragraph it is written that:* *=E2=80=9C= L4S solely addresses the problem of queuing* * latency. =E2=80=9C **As also indicated elsewhere in the draft, keep= ing loss down is also a primary part of L4s and a prerequisite for that l4s works well.* *I think that the draft could better motivate the issue with the policiers and the necessity to deploy L4S friendly policies (as you discuss below).* *This was my point.* *BR, Karen* then the assertion that L4S is universally applicable to all Internet traffic just took a serious hit. I guess you're referring to the opening sentence of the abstract of the L4S architecture: "...a new service that the Internet could provide to eventually replace best efforts for all traffic...". That doesn't mean that when a sender turns on the ECT(1) codepoint it magically creates an L4S implementation in every bottleneck and every policer that the sender traverses. Nonetheless, the point of L4S is for performance to be so good, that it magically makes operators want to deploy an L4S AQM at their bottlenecks (and to deploy more L4S-friendly policers). I might suggest considering which PHBs are more vs. less appropriate for L4S, as token buckets are rath= er common out there and will have to be dealt with as part of incremental deployment of L4S. Karen - thank you for pointing this out. I think you have got the wrong end of the stick. When we said "for all traffic", we meant the default L4S service could give the service that the traffic requires (that is, for example, the EF or AF /service/, not the EF or AF /per hop behaviour/). We didn't mean the traffic has to be marked EF or AF to get that service, we just meant that the default L4S service would be /roughly/ as good as EF or AF, without having to implement EF or AF. The inclusion of EF is probably an overclaim - there's no explicit mechanism in L4S to give any guarantee of EF-like service. Nonetheless, I included EF in my list, because the Internet has always proved good at meeting performance goals without being able to guarantee that it will. That said, L4S gives only the low queueing delay feature of Diffserv, but not the "priority over bandwidth during anomalies" feature that some Differv classes give over others. We will need to make that clear - it's not clear at the moment. For bandwidth priority, it would be appropriate to use relevant non-default Diffserv PHBs, and it would be appropriate to use L4S within those classes. I have analysed this for the specific case of the classes used by my previous employer, but not for all the Diffserv classes that the IETF has ever dreamed of. So yes, we need to suggest which PHBs are appropriate for L4S. I'd be happy to work with someone doing that, but it's not my priority at the moment. I'll certainly add an open issues section in the architecture doc and include this so it doesn't get lost. In addition to Karen's concern, I have another concern with the text quoted= from the L4S architecture draft - it contains an assertion that networks ought to just ignore the L4S identifier and pass that identifier through unchanged for traffic that does not receive L4S service. The analogous exhortation for DSCPs has fail= ed miserably for operational reasons - bleaching to zero is entirely too commo= n so that traffic is marked for the service it is supposed to (authorized to) receive from the network, or as stated in Section 2 of See draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon: RFC2474's recommendation to forward traffic with unrecognized DSCPs with Default (best effort) service without rewriting the DSCP has proven to be a poor operational practice. Network operation and management are simplified when there is a 1-1 match between the DSCP marked on the packet and the forwarding treatment (PHB) applied by network nodes. When this is done, CS0 (the all-zero DSCP) is the only DSCP used for Default forwarding of best effort traffic, and a common practice is to remark to CS0 any traffic received with unrecognized or unsupported DSCPs at network edges. If the L4S identifier selects a distinct low latency network service, it will become a good network operational practice to remove that identifier from traffic th= at is not authorized to receive that low latency service. Bleaching ECT(1) cannot be ruled out as a future scenario. But we have tried to do as much as we can to head-off this possibility: 1) By explaining exactly how operators can offer exclusivity without needing to bleach 2) We are starting from a position where the ECN field is near-universally not bleached. So to bleach, an operator will have to actively destroy something they currently support. Operators know they would risk referral to their local regulator for that. 3) The ECN field is part of the Internet's congestion control system, so there is a higher bar to tampering with ECN than there was for Diffserv. That last point is subtle. L4S is not a "network service" like Diffserv. L4S is a service largely induced by the sender behaviour, with the network playing a minor but important complementary role (by notifying congestion at a shallow queue threshold). So, unlike Diffserv, the ECN field is not just a request down the layers asking the network for a particular service. It is also the place where congestion notification is carried up the layers, from network to transport. Sorry this reply took a while. When you sent it, I had no laptop (my charger failed on the Wed of the IETF). I got it fixed, but I'm only just getting back to those emails I missed. Cheers Bob Thanks, --David -----Original Message----- From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org ] On Behalf Of Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 4:55 AM To: in@bobbriscoe.net Cc: iccrg@irtf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org; Michael Welzl Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Policing and L4S WAS RE: [iccrg] BBR and other congest= ion control mechanisms HI Bob, Yes, well aware that L4S will only be as good as the best ISP on the path. [Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen] yes. One would hope that an operator deploying an L4S AQM would ensure its policers were compatible, but of course your point is that traffic can traverse other operators too. [Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen] I wish :-). Not close to having that grand overview at all, simply trying to understand the dependencies and how to make this work in a product. Using token bucket policing with drop to enforce SLAs pops up as an obvious issue then. This is perfectly fine and as it should be, BUT it is actually a very important point looking at the QOS features being developed for products, e.g., smart NICs, If we have token buckets there or don't get ECN in there in the Shaper logic, then really the interworking of Diff Server QoS and ECN will not be possible as indicated in the draft. I am generally assuming that operators would initially want to provide exclusive access to L4S for their own (probably paying) customers. l4s-arch says: Certain network operators might choose to restict access to the L4S class, perhaps only to customers who have paid a premium. In the packet classifer (item 2 in Figure 1), they could identify such customers using some other field than ECN (e.g. source address range), and just ignore the L4S identifier for non-paying customers. This would ensure that the L4S identifier survives end-to-end even though the service does not have to be supported at every hop. Such arrangements would only require simple registered/not-registered packet classification, rather than the managed application-specific traffic policing against customer-specific traffic contracts that Diffserv requires. [Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen] Yes I saw this text but it doesn't really say that ECN l4s service requires that the operators do not ingress BW police the traffic - sure this is clear from a technical point (also finally even for me now ..) but as BW policing is really a basic part of Diff Serv and QoS arch I think tha= t it could be good to stress that point in Section 5.2. You may use l4s to regulate traffic within a diff serv class but the traffi= c must not be subject to non ECN regulated drop at any point not in potential prior diff serv classification steps either. As an example, if you like, then in OPenstack QoS API there is (only yet) a simple BW policier function. Products are being build on this. If we want to provide l4s better be aware either to disable the function or that it need be done proper (..). Virtual services that are afforded l4s may not have a physical NIC at their sole disposal and BW policing for control of the shared access to the NIC resources is being used. Better make clear from the start that if one want ever to be able to provide l4s then these BW policing functions must eventually implement ECN enabled AQM. BR, Karen Bob On Thu, November 17, 2016 12:36 pm, Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen wrote: HI Bob, All, Very interesting from my perspective. Thanks a lot for this presentation and mail discussion. With the point of view of acc ECN/l4s then I wonder if it was worth to include some text about token bucket policing and L4S in the L4S Architecture draft, draft-briscoe-tsvwg-l4s-arch-00. There is some considerations there already in section 5.2 and section 8.1, but would it be relevant to make it more explicit that the following statement (section 5.2) Nonetheless, if there are Diffserv classes for important traffic, the L4S approach can provide low latency for _all_ traffic within each Diffserv class (including the case where there is only one Diffserv class). Is only really truly valid if ingress diff serv classification/policing/shaping it self - e.g., a BW policier - does not implement drop and in case of a shaper (and queuing) then ECN must be implemented by the shaper as well. I suppose the latter somehow falls into ECN recommendations for AQM, so perhaps these considerations (end the differences to a policier that do drop) are already totally clear to everybody. ECN sort of is the alternative to let the CC be latency increase aware, but as pointed out here then with bold drop token bucket policing we really have neither. Thanks BR, Karen -----Original Message----- From: iccrg [mailto:iccrg-bounces@irtf.org ] On Behalf Of Bob Briscoe Sent: 17. november 2016 08:35 To: Michael Welzl Cc: iccrg@irtf.org; Yuchung Cheng Subject: Re: [iccrg] BBR and other congestion control mechanisms Michael, On Thu, November 17, 2016 1:49 am, Michael Welzl wrote: Hi, An add-on to my previous email below: Mechanisms like Veno and CTCP, if I get this right, only decide that a loss is due to congestion when it also comes with delay growth. I just witnessed your presentation in MAPRG about policing, and how BBR interacts with it: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-maprg-traffic-p o lici ng-in-the-internet-yuchung-cheng-and-neal-cardwell-00.pdf p olic ing-in-the-internet-yuchung-cheng-and-neal-cardwell-00.pdf> ( Thanks for giving this presentation, this was very interesting. ) So this would mean that Veno, CTCP etc. would get it wrong in the face of a token bucket - there would be loss without delay growth, yet it IS due to a rate limit. Given the prevalence of policing that you have shown, and how BBR nicely interacts with it, I find this very interesting (and good); I=E2=80=99m not sure if this has been considered in the design of any congestion control before? Does anyone know of any other examples? 1/ I would be interested if there is enough data in the BBR dataset to zoom in on clients in specific ISPs. I know at least one traffic management vendor uses a congestion policer that limits the rate of heavy users, but the rate at which it limits varies all the time, because it is the outcome congestion limit, not a rate limit. More precisely, it enforces a "congestion rate token bucket" limit on the per-user contribution to shared congestion. This would look similar to the varying capacity of a scheduler, but distinguished from 3G/LTE or WiFi by only tiny additional delay, because the measurement of shared congestion in the policer is based on an AQM on a very high bandwidth link (typically 10G or 40Gb/s), so queuing delay is very low before loss appears. 2/ HULL (High throughput, utra-low latency) uses DCTCP at the sender. In the network it marks ECN on the real packets based on the length of a 'phantom' queue, which is a number incremented by the size of every arriving packet, and decremented slightly more slowly than the drain rate of the real queue. This keeps the real queue extremely short. This is an example where there is zero delay build-up before the intended operating point. Because of the lack of delay, it also uses hardware pacing on the sender NIC, because there is no queuing delay to space out TCP's ACK clock otherwise. I don't know whether any DC operators are using HULL (does anyone?). You would not want to put Not-ECT packets (like current BBR) into such a queue structure. Bob Cheers, Michael On Nov 17, 2016, at 9:57 AM, Michael Welzl wrote: Hi Yuchung, On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:22 AM, Yuchung Cheng > wrote: On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Michael Welzl > wrote: Dear all, Thanks very much to the authors of BBR for an interesting presentation yesterday! (see https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-iccrg-bbr- cong estion-control-01.pdf -con gestion-control-01.pdf> if you missed it). I=E2=80=99d be interested to know how BBR compares to some other TCP variants. For example, TIMELY: http://conferences.sigcomm.org/sigcomm/2015/pdf/papers/p537.pdf Any idea, anyone? ( I tried, honestly, I did - but I just can=E2=80=99t manage to hold back a tiny bit of sarcasm here: ...is BBR also 133 times faster than TIMELY? :-) ) I'd like to explain further about 133x result of BBR vs Cubic first. This is a spot-test. It is not a general quantification of BBR's improvement on our B4 network (we'll publish that data in a separate report). This is a 8MB RPC every 30s on a warmed connection on east-US <-> west-EU using the lowest QoS (best effort). That particular path has quite a bit of burst induced losses. In this case, Cubic just died due to 1/sqrt(p). Notice the network path is fairly different from the typical Internet access: it's +10G from start to end, with little buffers (compared to BDP) on the way to build persistent large queues. The losses are caused by burst traffic (of same or higher QoS). What the number 133x highlighted was when loss does not indicate a persistent queue, using it as a sole congestion signal is brittle. It is not to say loss signal is completely useless, but it does not always indicate self-induced queues. Thanks for this information! Comparing TIMELY and BBR are at one level comparing apples to oranges. TIMELY is designed for a very specific hw/transport (RDMA/kernel-bypass) and networks (intra-DC) with the goal to reduce tail latency. Hence it uses specific NIC features like HW timestamps to perform its control. Well =E2=80=A6 I understand it was made for intra-DC communication, and it uses these features to get the necessary timer granularity. I can=E2=80=99t see why this wouldn=E2=80=99t make it applicable to networks with larger RTTs? BBR is designed to be a generic good transport to achieve high tput with adequate queue. It faces an unknown network and sole feedback is TCP-acks hence it must first perform a exponential search to get a basic sense of the network. It also needs to deal with all sorts of adverse issues in the wild Internet as we'v described. Right=E2=80=A6 E.g. I guess Timely wouldn=E2=80=99t work so well when facin= g losses. A more interesting comparison would be vs other Internet-CC like Vegas (which we are working on). No, I think that=E2=80=99s a terribly uninteresting comparison to do. I=E2= =80=99d even call it ridiculous, as many many MANY mechanisms work better than Vegas, after all it's now 16 years old. May I propose comparing against the state of the art, not the state of 2000? Some of the direct follow-ups on Vegas for example, like FAST? Or delay-based algorithms that also use a bit more information than just delay? E.g. Westwood comes to mind, as a mechanism that also looks at the rate at which ACKs arrive. AFAIK this one is readily available in Linux for comparison. Also, some TCP variants try to distinguish between random packet loss and congestion-induced packet loss - so similar to BBR, you wouldn=E2=80=99t overreact to random losses with them. Veno is an example, and CTCP (Coded TCP, not Compound TCP) too. Cheers, Michael _______________________________________________ iccrg mailing list iccrg@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/iccrg _______________________________________________ iccrg mailing list iccrg@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/iccrg _______________________________________________ iccrg mailing list iccrg@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/iccrg --=20 ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ --94eb2c1b7a6c4042600542d51b78 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

HI,

=C2=A0

Just to be clear. I supp= ort the ecn work and potential adoption of this work.

My comments do not go in the disq= ualifying the work, rather the opposite.

<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri&quo= t;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0

Inline below.

=C2=A0

BR, Karen

=C2=A0

From: iccrg [mailto:ic= crg-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Bob Briscoe
Sent: 1= . december 2016 02:23
To: Black, David <David.Black@dell.com>; Karen Elisabeth Egede Niels= en <karen.nielsen@tieto.com>
Cc:
iccrg@irtf.org; = tsvwg@ietf.org
Subject: Re:= [iccrg] [tsvwg] Policing and L4S WAS RE: BBR and other congestion control = mechanisms

=C2=A0

David,

On 19/11/16 04:19, Black, David wrote:

Commenting as an individual =
(not WG chair), at least for now ...
=C2=A0
If I read t=
his correctly, that L4S is not compatible with Diffserv-style bandwidth
policing and token buckets in particular, 

Well, no. L4S is not incompatible with Diffserv-style bandw= idth policing.

Because, on loss the L4S requirements say a source m= ust fall back to a Classic loss-response (e.g. Reno, Cubic, or something eq= uivalent if it's a real-time transport). So a tb bandwidth policer (2-c= olour, 3-colour, 1-rate, 2-rate, etc) will work just fine to limit an L4S s= ource.

I think what Karen meant was the other way round: That an L4S= source will not get L4S service from a tb bandwidth policer,

[Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen] Yes that was what I was addre= ssing.

just a= s it won't get L4S service from a non-L4S bottleneck router or switch. = Precisely because L4S falls back to non-L4S (Classic) behaviour in b= oth cases; whenever it gets a loss.

[Karen Elisabet= h Egede Nielsen] And you=E2=80=99re doing a great deal to provide mechanism= s that routers can deploy to support good interworking with ECN/l4s.=

We n= eed the same for policiers.

= It is not really enough that ECN/l4s does not= do worse than classic where there is a drop policier, if this often can be= the case.


Interaction with Policing is in the L4S architecture doc (which used = to be the L4S problem statement):
See section 8.1
Traffic (Non-)Policing, whic= h is in section 8 'Security Considerations'.

Section = 8.2 'Latency Friendliness' explains that some operator= s might introduce burst policing for L4S. However, 8.2 recommends that we s= tart without policing and instead we recommend ways to get a good service w= hile minimizing burstiness. I call it 'latency friendliness', becau= se it's based on "social pressure"; somewhat like the traditi= onal approach to TCP friendliness, where we recommend good algorithms in th= e expectation they will avoid the need for policing. But it doesn't pre= clude operators deploying policers.

[Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen] I think that ECN would be much more powerful if = one could device how to make policing interwork with it.

=

I would rather l= ike to see ECN not as a replacement of DiffServ, but as a supplement as als= o indicated in section 5.2 of the draft (the underlined parts below):

=C2= =A0

<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri&quo= t;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Diffserv:=C2=A0 Diffserv addresses the problem= of bandwidth apportionment

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= for important traffic as well as queuing latency for delay-

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 sensitive traffic.=C2=A0 L4S solely addr= esses the problem of queuing

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 latency.=C2=A0 Diffserv will still be necessary where important traffic=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 requires priority (e.g. = for commercial reasons, or for protection

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of critical infrastructure traffic).=C2=A0 Nonetheless, if = there are

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Diffserv classes for important traffic, the L4S approach can

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 provide low latency for _all_ traffic within each = Diffserv class^

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^= ^^^^^^

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (including the case where there is only one Dif= fserv class).

=C2=A0

Something else, suddenly in this paragrap= h it is written that: <= b>=E2=80=9CL4S solely addre= sses the problem of queuing

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= latency.=C2=A0 =E2=80=9C As also indicated elsewhere in the draft, keeping loss down is also a p= rimary part of L4s and a prerequisite for that l4s works well.

=C2=A0

I= think that the draft could better motivate the issue with the policiers an= d the necessity to deploy L4S friendly policies (as you discuss below).

T= his was my point.

=C2=A0

<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri&quo= t;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">BR, Karen

=C2=A0

then the assertion that L4S is universally
applicable to all Internet traffic just took a serious hit.=C2=A0 

I guess= you're referring to the opening sentence of the abstract of the= L4S architecture: "...a new service that the Internet could provide t= o eventually replace best efforts for all traffic...". That doesn'= t mean that when a sender turns on the ECT(1) codepoint it magically create= s an L4S implementation in every bottleneck and every policer that the send= er traverses.

Nonetheless, the point of L4S is for performance to b= e so good, that it magically makes operators want to deploy an L4S AQM at t= heir bottlenecks (and to deploy more L4S-friendly policers).

I might sugge=
st considering
which PHBs are more vs. less appropriate for L4S, =
as token buckets are rather
common out there and will have to be =
dealt with as part of incremental
deployment of L4S.=C2=A0 Karen =
- thank you for pointing this out.

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick. When we said "for al= l traffic", we meant the default L4S service could give the service th= at the traffic requires (that is, for example, the EF or AF /service/, not = the EF or AF /per hop behaviour/). We didn't mean the traffic has to be= marked EF or AF to get that service, we just meant that the default L4S se= rvice would be /roughly/ as good as EF or AF, without having to implement E= F or AF.

The inclusion of EF is probably an overclaim - there's= no explicit mechanism in L4S to give any guarantee of EF-like service. Non= etheless, I included EF in my list, because the Internet has always proved = good at meeting performance goals without being able to guarantee that it w= ill.

That said, L4S gives only the low queueing delay feature of Dif= fserv, but not the "priority over bandwidth during anomalies" fea= ture that some Differv classes give over others. We will need to make that = clear - it's not clear at the moment.

For bandwidth priority, it= would be appropriate to use relevant non-default Diffserv PHBs, and it wou= ld be appropriate to use L4S within those classes. I have analysed this for= the specific case of the classes used by my previous employer, but not for= all the Diffserv classes that the IETF has ever dreamed of. So yes, we nee= d to suggest which PHBs are appropriate for L4S. I'd be happy to work w= ith someone doing that, but it's not my priority at the moment. I'l= l certainly add an open issues section in the architecture doc and include = this so it doesn't get lost.


=C2=A0
=C2=A0
In a=
ddition to Karen's concern, I have another concern with the text quoted=
 from
the L4S architecture draft -=C2=A0 it contains an assertion=
 that networks ought to just
ignore the L4S identifier and pass t=
hat identifier through unchanged for traffic that
does not receiv=
e L4S service.=C2=A0 The analogous exhortation for DSCPs has failed
miserably for operational reasons - bleaching to zero is entirely too co= mmon so
that traffic is marked for the service it is supposed to =
(authorized to) receive from
the network, or as stated in Section=
 2 of See draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon:
=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC2474's recommendation to forward traffic with unrecogni=
zed DSCPs
=C2=A0=C2=A0 with Default (best effort) service without=
 rewriting the DSCP has
=C2=A0=C2=A0 proven to be a poor operatio=
nal practice.=C2=A0 Network operation and
=C2=A0=C2=A0 management=
 are simplified when there is a 1-1 match between the DSCP
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 marked on the packet and the forwarding treatment (PHB) applied by
=C2=A0=C2=A0 network nodes.=C2=A0 When this is done, CS0 (the all-=
zero DSCP) is the
=C2=A0=C2=A0 only DSCP used for Default forward=
ing of best effort traffic, and a
=C2=A0=C2=A0 common practice is=
 to remark to CS0 any traffic received with
=C2=A0=C2=A0 unrecogn=
ized or unsupported DSCPs at network edges.
=C2=A0
If t=
he L4S identifier selects a distinct low latency network service, it will b=
ecome a
good network operational practice to remove that identifi=
er from traffic that is
not authorized to receive that low latenc=
y service.

Bleaching ECT(1) cannot= be ruled out as a future scenario. But we have tried to do as much as we c= an to head-off this possibility:
1) By explaining exactly how operators = can offer exclusivity without needing to bleach
2) We are starting from = a position where the ECN field is near-universally not bleached. So to blea= ch, an operator will have to actively destroy something they currently supp= ort. Operators know they would risk referral to their local regulator for t= hat.
3) The ECN field is part of the Internet's congestion control s= ystem, so there is a higher bar to tampering with ECN than there was for Di= ffserv.

That last point is subtle.
L4S is not a "network ser= vice" like Diffserv. L4S is a service largely induced by the sender be= haviour, with the network playing a minor but important complementary role = (by notifying congestion at a shallow queue threshold). So, unlike Diffserv= , the ECN field is not just a request down the layers asking the network fo= r a particular service. It is also the place where congestion notification = is carried up the layers, from network to transport.


Sorry this = reply took a while. When you sent it, I had no laptop (my charger failed on= the Wed of the IETF). I got it fixed, but I'm only just getting back t= o those emails I missed.

Cheers


Bob



=C2=A0
<= pre>=C2=A0
Thanks, --David
=C2=A0
-----Original Message-----<=
/pre>
From: tsvwg [mailto:tsv=
wg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karen Elisabeth
Egede Niels=
en
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 4:55 AM
To: in@bobbriscoe.net
Cc: iccrg@irtf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org; Michael Welzl
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Poli=
cing and L4S WAS RE: [iccrg] BBR and other congestion
control mec=
hanisms
=C2=A0
HI Bob,
=C2=A0
Yes, well aware that =
L4S will only be as good as the best ISP on the path.
=C2=A0
[Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen] yes.
=C2=A0
One woul=
d hope that an operator deploying an L4S AQM would ensure its
pol=
icers were compatible, but of course your point is that traffic can
traverse
other operators too.
=C2=A0
[Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen] I wish :-). Not close to having tha=
t grand
overview at all, simply trying to
understand th=
e dependencies and how to make this work in a product.
=C2=A0
Using token bucket policing with drop to enforce SLAs pops up as an =
obvious
issue then.
=C2=A0
This is perfectly =
fine and as it should be, BUT it is actually a very
important poi=
nt looking at the QOS features being developed for products,
 e.g=
., smart NICs, If we have token buckets there or don't get ECN in there=
in the Shaper logic, then really
the interworking of D=
iff Server QoS and ECN will not be possible as
indicated in the d=
raft.
=C2=A0
I am generally assuming that operators would initially wan=
t to provide
exclusive access to L4S for their own (probably payi=
ng) customers.
l4s-arch says:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 Certain network operators might choose to restict access to the L4S<=
/pre>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 class, perhaps only to customers who have paid a pre=
mium.=C2=A0 In the
=C2=A0=C2=A0 packet classifer (item 2 in Figur=
e 1), they could identify such
=C2=A0=C2=A0 customers using some =
other field than ECN (e.g. source address
=C2=A0=C2=A0 range), an=
d just ignore the L4S identifier for non-paying customers.
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 This would ensure that the L4S identifier survives end-to-end even
=C2=A0=C2=A0 though the service does not have to be supported at e=
very hop.=C2=A0 Such
=C2=A0=C2=A0 arrangements would only require=
 simple registered/not-registered
=C2=A0=C2=A0 packet classificat=
ion, rather than the managed application-specific
=C2=A0=C2=A0 tr=
affic policing against customer-specific traffic contracts that
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Diffserv requires.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
[Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen] Yes I saw this text but it do=
esn't really
say that ECN l4s service requires that
the operators do not ingress BW police the traffic=C2=A0 - sure this is cl= ear
from a technical point (also finally even for me now ..) but<=
/pre>
as BW policing is really a basic part of Diff Serv and QoS arch I=
 think that
it could be good to stress that point in Section 5.2.=
You may use l4s to regulate traffic within a diff serv class but=
 the traffic
must not be subject to non ECN regulated drop at any=
 point
not in potential prior diff serv classification steps eith=
er.
=C2=A0
As an example, if you like, then in OPenstac=
k QoS API there is (only yet) a
simple BW policier function. Prod=
ucts are being build
on this. If we want to provide l4s better be=
 aware either to disable the
function or that it need be done pro=
per (..).
Virtual services that are afforded l4s may not have a p=
hysical NIC at their
sole disposal and BW policing for control of=
 the shared
access to the NIC resources is being used. Better mak=
e clear from the start
that if one want ever to be able to provid=
e l4s then
these BW policing functions must eventually implement =
ECN enabled AQM.
=C2=A0
BR, Karen
=C2=A0
Bob
<= pre>=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Thu, November 17, 2016 12:36 pm, K=
aren Elisabeth Egede Nielsen wrote:
HI Bob, All,
=C2=A0
=C2=
=A0
Very interesting from my perspective. Thanks a lot for this
presentation and mail discussion.
=C2=A0
With =
the point of view of acc ECN/l4s then I wonder if it was worth to
include some text about token bucket policing and L4S in the L4S
Architecture draft, draft-briscoe-tsvwg-l4s-arch-00.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
There is some considerations there already in sectio=
n 5.2 and section
8.1, but would it be relevant to make it more e=
xplicit that the
following statement (section 5.2)
=C2=
=A0
Nonetheless, if there are
Diffserv classes for impo=
rtant traffic, the L4S approach can provide
low latency for _all_=
 traffic within each Diffserv class (including
the case where the=
re is only one Diffserv class).
=C2=A0
Is only really t=
ruly valid if ingress diff serv
classification/policing/shaping=
=C2=A0 it self - e.g., a BW policier - does
not implement drop an=
d in case of a shaper (and queuing) then ECN must
be implemented =
by the shaper as well. I suppose the latter somehow
falls into EC=
N recommendations for AQM, so perhaps these
considerations (end t=
he differences to a policier that do
drop) are already totally cl=
ear to everybody.
=C2=A0
ECN sort of is the alternative=
 to let the CC be latency increase
aware, but as pointed out here=
 then with bold drop token bucket
policing we really have neither=
.
=C2=A0
Thanks
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=
BR, Karen
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
-----Original Message-----
=
From: iccrg [mailto:iccrg-bo=
unces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of Bob Briscoe
Sent: 17. november 2=
016 08:35
To: Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
Cc: iccrg@irtf.org; Yuchung Cheng <ycheng@google.com>
Subject: Re: [iccrg] BBR and other=
 congestion control mechanisms
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=
Michael,
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Thu, November 17, 2=
016 1:49 am, Michael Welzl wrote:
=C2=A0
Hi,
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
An add-on to my previous email below:<=
/pre>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Mechanisms lik=
e Veno and CTCP, if I get this right, only decide that
a loss is =
due to congestion when it also comes with delay growth. I
just wi=
tnessed your presentation in MAPRG about policing, and how
BBR in=
teracts with it:
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides=
/slides-97-maprg-traffic-p
o lici ng-in-the-internet-yuchung-=
cheng-and-neal-cardwell-00.pdf
<https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/s=
lides/slides-97-maprg-traffic-
<=
a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-maprg-traffi=
c-policing-in-the-internet-yuchung-cheng-and-neal-cardwell-00.pdf">p olic i=
ng-in-the-internet-yuchung-cheng-and-neal-cardwell-00.pdf> (<=
/pre>
Thanks for giving this presentation, this was very interesting. )=
=C2=A0
So this would mean that Veno, CTCP etc. would g=
et it wrong in the
face of a token bucket - there would be loss w=
ithout delay growth,
yet it IS due to a rate limit. Given the pre=
valence of policing that
you have shown, and how BBR nicely inter=
acts with it, I find this
very interesting (and good); I=E2=80=99=
m not sure if this has been
considered in the design of any conge=
stion control before?=C2=A0 Does
anyone know of any other example=
s?
1/ I would be interested if there is enough data =
in the BBR dataset
to zoom in on clients in specific ISPs. I know=
 at least one traffic
management vendor uses a congestion policer=
 that limits the rate of
heavy users, but the rate at which it li=
mits varies all the time,
because it is the outcome congestion li=
mit, not a rate limit. More
precisely, it enforces a "conges=
tion rate token bucket" limit on the
per-user contribution t=
o shared congestion.
=C2=A0
This would look similar to =
the varying capacity of a scheduler, but
distinguished from 3G/LT=
E or WiFi by only tiny additional delay,
because=C2=A0 the measur=
ement of shared congestion in the policer is based
on an AQM on a=
 very high bandwidth link (typically 10G or 40Gb/s), so
queuing d=
elay is very low before loss appears.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
2/ HULL (High throughput, utra-low latency) uses DCTCP at the sender=
.
In
the network it marks ECN on the real packets based=
 on the length of a
'phantom' queue, which is a number in=
cremented by the size of every
arriving packet, and decremented s=
lightly more slowly than the drain
rate of the real queue. This k=
eeps the real queue extremely short.
=C2=A0
This is an =
example where there is zero delay build-up before the
intended op=
erating point. Because of the lack of delay, it also uses
hardwar=
e pacing on the sender NIC, because there is no queuing delay
to =
space out TCP's ACK clock otherwise.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0<=
/pre>
I don't know whether any DC operators are using HULL (does an=
yone?).
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
You would not want to p=
ut Not-ECT packets (like current BBR) into
such a queue structure=
.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Bob
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Cheers,
Michael
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Nov 17, 2016, at 9:57 AM, Michael Wel=
zl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
wrote:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=
Hi Yuchung,
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0
On Nov 17, 2016, at 8:22 AM, Yuchung Cheng <ycheng@google.com
<mailto:ycheng@google.com>> wrote:
=C2=A0
<= pre>=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On =
Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no
<mailto:michawe@ifi.uio.no>> wrote:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Dear all,
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=
Thanks very much to the authors of BBR for an interesting
pr=
esentation yesterday! (see
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/sl=
ides/slides-97-iccrg-bbr-
cong estion-control-01.pdf
<https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/= slides-97-iccrg-bbr
-con
gestion-control-01.pdf> if you missed it)=
.
=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99d be interested to know how BBR comp=
ares to some other TCP
variants. For example, TIMELY:
=
=C2=A0
http://conferences.sigcomm.org/sigcomm/2015/pdf/papers=
/p537.pdf
=C2=A0
&l=
t;http://conferences.sigcomm.org/sigcomm/2015/pdf/papers/p537.pdf>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Any idea, anyone?
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
( I tried, honest=
ly, I did - but I just can=E2=80=99t manage to hold back
a tiny b=
it of sarcasm here:=C2=A0 ...is BBR also 133 times faster than
TI=
MELY?=C2=A0 :-)=C2=A0 )
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
I'd like to explain further about 133x result of BBR vs Cubic
first.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
This is a spot-te=
st. It is not a general quantification of BBR's
improvement o=
n our B4 network (we'll publish that data in a
separate repor=
t). This is a 8MB RPC every 30s on a warmed
connection on east-US=
 <-> west-EU using the lowest QoS (best
effort). That parti=
cular path has quite a bit of burst induced
losses. In this case,=
 Cubic just died due to 1/sqrt(p). Notice the
network path is fai=
rly different from the typical Internet access:
it's +10G fro=
m start to end, with little buffers (compared to BDP)
on the way =
to build persistent large queues. The losses are caused
by burst =
traffic (of same or higher QoS). What the number 133x
highlighted=
 was when loss does not indicate a persistent queue,
using it as =
a sole congestion signal is brittle. It is not to say
loss signal=
 is completely useless, but it does not always indicate
self-indu=
ced queues.
Thanks for this information!
=
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Comparing TIMELY and BB=
R are at one level comparing apples to
oranges. TIMELY is designe=
d for a very specific hw/transport
(RDMA/kernel-bypass) and netwo=
rks (intra-DC) with the goal to
reduce tail latency. Hence it use=
s specific NIC features like HW
timestamps to perform its control=
.
Well =E2=80=A6 I understand it was made for intra-=
DC communication, and it
uses these features to get the necessary=
 timer granularity. I can=E2=80=99t
see why this wouldn=E2=80=99t=
 make it applicable to networks with larger
RTTs?
=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
BBR is designed to be a generic good transp=
ort to achieve high
tput with adequate queue. It faces an unknown=
 network and sole
feedback is TCP-acks hence it must first perfor=
m a exponential
search to get a basic sense of the network. It al=
so needs to deal
with all sorts of adverse issues in the wild Int=
ernet as we'v
described.
Right=E2=80=
=A6 E.g. I guess Timely wouldn=E2=80=99t work so well when facing
losses.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
A more interesting co=
mparison would be vs other Internet-CC like
Vegas (which we are w=
orking on).
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
No, I =
think that=E2=80=99s a terribly uninteresting comparison to do. I=E2=80=99d=
even call it ridiculous, as many many MANY mechanisms work bette=
r
than Vegas, after all it's now 16 years old.
May =
I propose comparing against the state of the art, not the state
o=
f 2000?
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Some o=
f the direct follow-ups on Vegas for example, like FAST? Or
delay=
-based algorithms that also use a bit more information than
just =
delay?
=C2=A0
E.g. Westwood comes to mind, as a mechani=
sm that also looks at the
rate at which ACKs arrive. AFAIK this o=
ne is readily available in
Linux for comparison.
=C2=A0=
Also, some TCP variants try to distinguish between random packet=
loss and congestion-induced packet loss - so similar to BBR, you=
wouldn=E2=80=99t overreact to random losses with them. Veno is a=
n example,
and CTCP (Coded TCP, not Compound TCP) too.
=
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Cheers,
Michae=
l
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
____________=
___________________________________
iccrg mailing list iccrg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icc=
rg
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
___________=
____________________________________
iccrg mailing list iccrg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
iccrg
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
_______________________________________________
iccrg mailing list iccrg@irtf.or=
g
htt=
ps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/iccrg
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">

-- 
______________________=
__________________________________________
Bob Briscoe=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 http://bobbriscoe.=
net/
--94eb2c1b7a6c4042600542d51b78-- From nobody Mon Dec 5 00:43:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF89D129855 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2016 00:43:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=tieto.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3HTcz_9Yk78x for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2016 00:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x22e.google.com (mail-io0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C93D7129856 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2016 00:43:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id a124so584655575ioe.2 for ; Mon, 05 Dec 2016 00:43:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tieto.com; s=google; h=from:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:thread-index:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=LknZGiuTVEXTsAMBq+kTY3zd37MGtEIeLIETdHpox1Y=; b=kTBwXUXB41CEAzfwX6mTaoaPf5n3WTLtaPSp0KuVAvfsup6uMPSUaErDNi5Ug3Q85r Ua/TGKlyLTHlFmpj3mCPuq7pN2LBDjKrWac7wfVqxykvuE965kd/vObeXRm57u0ipgw4 D22F+50OKorZxK7VJLJO5eKov/0I9FC9+ZW+A= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:references:in-reply-to:mime-version :thread-index:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=LknZGiuTVEXTsAMBq+kTY3zd37MGtEIeLIETdHpox1Y=; b=G7f6bh+JIPgHFwfKRnSfWaX14sGvJ9ntrPjKyPwSaE1MLDAhiC/hoFMHBnVlAVTvPt k8ub2h0+AJfSryIIPli6ymm+clocPxE5C25zMzVjET03d8bXmCe0ZNLbA5hJfxpFbc/J fAjB2hHFOkYwMTQWG9VpHDaY4WYc+MjCVVAGR74Uz5GRj8hIyO/dgjDtGV2LKjOiFDoB 7Wv/zw7G5qt/citMneGQ/RDvAmOewOUqXfHxwqHWVmwPNgPTHIHKsYrOOqu8nrEU/AAB EUMgEkvarhPdKrgTk3HjxCUQmabZVXFbLHfhnMBF94mU83YdDrtwtHcMAMXS3X7VbvH9 oGkw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC00Pn+Paszr4Cyb+iTbFL6tisH02OSKFXR6H5pLtL5iNrHb1rfNavaxn3ltkZbXXCSTCMHlomr1lVGssqOaLosFLRhDcHlVOEc+IoIvnbyrtXrUBDZEeJZi3fYNIg2K3aOmz X-Received: by 10.36.25.18 with SMTP id b18mr7277625itb.56.1480927421534; Mon, 05 Dec 2016 00:43:41 -0800 (PST) From: Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen References: <147992201755.8320.2637448149704654629.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <147992201755.8320.2637448149704654629.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQL5pPXvulkVcP4T3aTppn6Igzso2Z6qW4Cw Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 09:43:39 +0100 Message-ID: <0ed2e231caeb26ea69585634c180a7e9@mail.gmail.com> To: IETF Secretariat , tsvwg@ietf.org, tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org, draft-black-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DomainID: tieto.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] The TSVWG WG has placed draft-black-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2016 08:43:53 -0000 I support the adoption of this work. Motivation: * to support the introduction (experimental or other) of new ECN based congestion control variants by restricting the Classical ECN operations as described in RFC3168 to ECT(0). Thus freeing ECT(1) for use by new variants and thus establishing a clear distinction among the classical variant and the new variants. BR, Karen > -----Original Message----- > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of IETF Secretariat > Sent: 23. november 2016 18:27 > To: tsvwg@ietf.org; tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org; draft-black-tsvwg-ecn- > experimentation@ietf.org > Subject: [tsvwg] The TSVWG WG has placed draft-black-tsvwg-ecn- > experimentation in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" > > > The TSVWG WG has placed draft-black-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation in state > Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Gorry Fairhurst) > > The document is available at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-black-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/ > > > Comment: > Following discussion at the IETF meeting in Seoul, this email starts a > formal > adoption call for the above process draft. The draft, if adopted will form > the > *BASIS* for a PS Update to RFC 3168, allowing the way for experimentation > using the ECT codepoint by publication of Experimental RFCs. The document > also proposes ending the previous IETF experiment known as the "ECN > Nonce". > > Comments are welcome on the list to indicate if such a document is > considered useful for the IETF to publish, or expressing concerns about > any > of these topics. You may also send comments on the current text (and these > are welcome), but, if you do, please also clearly indicate if you support > the > progress of work on this topic within TSVWG. > > All comments need to be received by 9th Dec 2016, after which a decision > will > be made on how to progress. (You may read about the adoption process in > RFC7221.) From nobody Mon Dec 5 01:01:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18DF6129851 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2016 01:01:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=tieto.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V-d1K3ENaHT5 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2016 01:01:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x233.google.com (mail-io0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 595E912984F for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2016 01:01:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io0-x233.google.com with SMTP id m5so447576238ioe.3 for ; Mon, 05 Dec 2016 01:01:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tieto.com; s=google; h=from:mime-version:thread-index:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ULlONz2MUIrIMxQmSHyf4EjTVy3qs0aRCthVocCBkGg=; b=3+kwHGLNWRd3Ec3DGhIkyHqq2CepuusXCkcoLKikcaDUjDuG4aEyUNmUL46U+LH2La 7v/NRjDodY7KiFwDbUSflyecqb58658pzJrVjIJB4ACN92MJuGuXz/WsGKAKAGjm+4NU dM42e9xPdMmx76Se4ZJ7VQTsscbR0XnxCbL8E= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:thread-index:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=ULlONz2MUIrIMxQmSHyf4EjTVy3qs0aRCthVocCBkGg=; b=WPKznYixyB5z+CxQ8G8HAr0Vfoy7ymrS/dDx7Je/hZSrZdnm6jLPK/qxXnkLFcUaOD PeuTQ72a3JTV7LUKwsEUJFXudzl8AvIxXzs/YdzJcZytvfO7CTTJzgwCnDQ9cmcGt0/c 9+1av36pOSHFbWjtXtBfmJ+Q65cZtSg+qIMkuw6Y3T2eUnT/NeAeRRuXsf8XyU5uWg5j yttKSPIM+AO8MoRjcGNCjYeuki7dXmO3iO7uCYQnDitoSv8duMp+0taypdgpsASZJwlT jtlXUbYFZ4SqJ9CNnv97M9HVRGA5EJD42UlG1+bXQLf6rEzuqFp3zxck6JXVmYm88a3B YkUA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC03J+6chRUCnObX+bUsxvZ5RnRSgYGFgnnop9xwN6PwKXRN/gr+JCENmT7O8PmEqRn5LCuXD2rwsGWPg2hLAmzBURRd8t8hc633Pb01HuZUn9VJvV5ctL0Pyieh7hLhNQk3l X-Received: by 10.107.59.87 with SMTP id i84mr44693756ioa.204.1480928491288; Mon, 05 Dec 2016 01:01:31 -0800 (PST) From: Karen Elisabeth Egede Nielsen MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AdJO1ioNLUmk0y5KTGaYO1zuvkZf8g== Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 10:01:29 +0100 Message-ID: To: tsvwg@ietf.org, draft-black-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org, "Black, David" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-DomainID: tieto.com Archived-At: Cc: tcpm@ietf.org Subject: [tsvwg] DCTCP and draft-black-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation ? X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2016 09:01:34 -0000 Hi, This very likely has been discussed length and I just missed it (Sorry). Why is dctcp, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp-03, not mentioned in this draft ? Even if it does not fall within the 4ls experiments (not sure about the answer to this) then it might be useful to add a few lines explaining the status of DCTCP in this respect ? Something else entirely then are mechanisms like DCQCN, not specified by IETF, but relying generally on ECN markings in UDP transport, though not following neither the classical nor the l4s approach. Such mechanisms as is, whether they use ECT(0) or ECT(1), remain to be treated as alians (or plainly as not compliant with standards) at this time in stage. Correct ? 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E=Sophos;i="5.33,305,1477954800"; d="scan'208";a="1211791808" Received: from he101654.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.134.226.15]) by q4de8psazkj.blf.telekom.de with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 05 Dec 2016 17:02:01 +0100 Received: from HE101653.emea1.cds.t-internal.com (10.134.226.13) by HE101654.emea1.cds.t-internal.com (10.134.226.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1236.3; Mon, 5 Dec 2016 17:01:48 +0100 Received: from HE101653.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([fe80::8954:80af:2020:572c]) by HE101653.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([fe80::8954:80af:2020:572c%27]) with mapi id 15.00.1236.000; Mon, 5 Dec 2016 17:01:48 +0100 From: To: , , Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHSS+VsMyE2wVCkaUGQBa+ChV93WKDzJ6qAgAAB0YCAAEdXgIAAVWmAgAXDG9A= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2016 16:01:48 +0000 Message-ID: <2fd82c4800fb46a2ac37c4d2b5ca2519@HE101653.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> References: <148060072924.10418.2190580790605513222.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <84337d9f-5e66-8580-ea8a-55aae278a371@cs.tcd.ie> <77cb5f92-4fdd-8362-8c3c-2fdc92af2444@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.157.165.33] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, iesg@ietf.org, tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2016 16:07:05 -0000 WWVzLCAgcmV3b3JkaW5nIHdpdGhvdXQganVkZ2VtZW50IGlzIGJldHRlci4NCg0KVGhhbmtzLCBS 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Thread-Index: AdJO1ioNLUmk0y5KTGaYO1zuvkZf8gBBdCMw Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 16:39:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.238.44.140] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd01.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public Archived-At: Cc: "tcpm@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tsvwg] DCTCP and draft-black-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation ? 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Tue, 6 Dec 2016 17:11:33 +0000 From: Tim Chown To: joel jaeggli Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHSS+kdZSJvWG9hs0+gFZ61kpfZ/aDzgY6AgABVaYCAABRIAIAHRISA Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 17:11:33 +0000 Message-ID: <90D48E0B-EDCA-4C24-8558-35C1298C68A0@jisc.ac.uk> References: <148060072924.10418.2190580790605513222.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <84337d9f-5e66-8580-ea8a-55aae278a371@cs.tcd.ie> <77cb5f92-4fdd-8362-8c3c-2fdc92af2444@gmail.com> <41c3edf7-8faf-4742-483f-387a30babf2f@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <41c3edf7-8faf-4742-483f-387a30babf2f@bogus.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [2001:a88:d510:1101:7c15:deb5:9f07:cf3d] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 709a7a86-1ca1-472f-6f97-08d41dfaede8 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001);SRVR:AM3PR07MB1138; 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charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" , The IESG , Stephen Farrell , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2016 17:13:08 -0000 > On 2 Dec 2016, at 02:12, joel jaeggli wrote: >=20 > On 12/1/16 4:59 PM, Black, David wrote: >>> But "poor" is a judgment call, so Stephen has a point. s/poor/unusual/ >>> would be factual. >> Sure, or something like "has not been widely deployed in practice." > The fact that it is in practice unworkable is trivially defensible. It > in fact does not work, My signals are not you signals, and I never > agreed to prioritize your traffic over mine, I don't control the > networks over which my packets flow, Encapsulation makes them invisible > even when I do, the bits are mutable and therefore are recycled, and so > on, it's turtles all the way down. Well, DSCP transparency was implemented quite widely in NRENs around Europe= and on Internet2, but that was several years ago. That was made possible b= ecause the European NRENs all work together under one umbrella, GEANT, and = they work quite closely with other R&E networks like Internet 2. I remember= that we used LBE at our university, and one of the large UK mirror sites m= arked download traffic as LBE, and the DSCP (8) was transparent on the NREN= network (Janet). Of course as soon as the traffic left the academic networks, all bets were = off. Tim >> Thanks, --David >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 2:54 PM >>> To: Black, David; Stephen Farrell; The IESG >>> Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffs= erv- >>> intercon@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg= -diffserv- >>> intercon-12: (with COMMENT) >>>=20 >>> On 02/12/2016 04:38, Black, David wrote: >>>> Hi Stephen, >>>>=20 >>>> We may be talking past each other - the "has proven to be a poor >>>> operational practice" statement is intended to be a "running code" >>>> observation that Joel (OPS AD) should be able to confirm. >>> As a former diffserv WG chair: >>>=20 >>> When we put that provision into the original diffserv model, we were >>> trying to give diffserv a chance of running end to end via ISPs that >>> didn't support diffserv - effectively by saying that those ISPs would >>> provide default service for the packets concerned. But in practice, >>> ISPs that have done anything at all about diffserv (i.e. have not simpl= y >>> run their routers with factory defaults) have mainly *chosen* to zero >>> any DSCPs that they don't explicitly support, to prevent unexpected >>> behaviours. I don't think that statement requires consensus, because it= 's >>> a fact. >>>=20 >>> But "poor" is a judgment call, so Stephen has a point. s/poor/unusual/ >>> would be factual. >>>=20 >>> Brian >>>=20 >>>> If you would like to see "rough consensus" on this, I may need to >>>> dust off my Kevlar (fire-resistant) vest ;-). >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks, --David >>>>=20 >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 10:32 AM >>>>> To: Black, David; The IESG >>>>> Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tsvwg-dif= fserv- >>>>> intercon@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: Re: Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffs= erv- >>> intercon- >>>>> 12: (with COMMENT) >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi David, >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 01/12/16 15:12, Black, David wrote: >>>>>> Stephen, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Thanks for the review and interest in this draft. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Diffserv Intercon could become a standard, although I'd really like = to see >>>>> broader operator interest before going there. >>>>>> On the "bad operational practice" point - the evidence is the widesp= read >>>>> operator deployment of "bleaching" >>>>>> DSCPs to zero at network interconnects. We could cite RFC 7657, whi= ch >>>>> contains this text in Section 3.2 >>>>>> on that point: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> So, for two arbitrary network endpoints, there can be no assurance >>>>>> that the DSCP set at the source endpoint will be preserved and >>>>>> presented at the destination endpoint. Rather, it is quite likely >>>>>> that the DSCP will be set to zero (e.g., at the boundary of a netw= ork >>>>>> operator that distrusts or does not use the DSCP field) or to a va= lue >>>>>> deemed suitable by an ingress classifier for whatever network 5-tu= ple >>>>>> it carries. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Would that help? >>>>> Not really, but not because it's a bad thing to add:-) >>>>>=20 >>>>> The thing I don't get is whether or not the claim in >>>>> the document is something that has IETF consensus or >>>>> not. That's because I'm ignorant about that topic, so >>>>> I'm just as happy to believe you when you tell me that >>>>> it's fine, without text changes. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> S. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Thanks, --David >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 8:59 AM >>>>>>> To: The IESG >>>>>>> Cc: draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon@ietf.org; Gorry Fairhurst; t= svwg- >>>>>>> chairs@ietf.org; gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; tsvwg@ietf.org >>>>>>> Subject: Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffser= v- >>> intercon- >>>>> 12: >>>>>>> (with COMMENT) >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for >>>>>>> draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-12: No Objection >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to a= ll >>>>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this >>>>>>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteri= a.html >>>>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon= / >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------= --- >>>>>>> COMMENT: >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------= --- >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> - I'm puzzled by this being informational, it sure seems >>>>>>> like something that could/should be a standard. (I'm not >>>>>>> objecting, just puzzled.) >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> - Section 2: For an IETF consensus document wouldn't it be >>>>>>> good to have some references for claims like "has proven to >>>>>>> be a poor operational practice"? Is that actually a >>>>>>> statement where we're confident of IETF consensus? (I have >>>>>>> no clue, I'm just checking based on the language and the >>>>>>> Informational RFC status.) >>>>>>>=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Dec 7 14:22:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84380129BF5 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2016 14:22:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MoQHT84CLe2o for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2016 14:22:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x22c.google.com (mail-qk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDAB5129C28 for ; Wed, 7 Dec 2016 14:22:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id x190so432277877qkb.0 for ; Wed, 07 Dec 2016 14:22:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Z2ANsGDEN6DW7GZBG+jCZqkyDuDHbMkSYTaB/Nogl1Q=; b=CJ3BaKBaNkfhyVv/XPrm8yoUUJqPAvNUedS7C4ob42zzMweZkPI8MuF5AmRc0QIsqk M0IbpKCHvHGLoG3YQezyulFb+3KSW+zu3bXXaThSzAEwGopp6QJaLsver+xZnZi5vPmC S2TKVJObJzTjnGl5SDW53idCQpdZ+jTDG+FLOitO3Jcth1mnx+39UqWyf6TLBto69HRn gRgB1MQNTAzkUDLV+p8LrZVMV/tQVPAtjoqfTsJV2/2SWdx1H/zrWQKkv4nexxoPuzg3 V8MG3IkZGvrb8nhrXEr78UHxKDe2HDqLFJeqN2loh3OoSqRwRgi0L7euRPD4/l19H+TC cm8Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Z2ANsGDEN6DW7GZBG+jCZqkyDuDHbMkSYTaB/Nogl1Q=; b=kQLKUESZlN45yx/jCdsW9ub3MgsrJ0JRXSz4TOfvrIEQYEnpDZ2cOfx6JbJ+4hQ1pT Gf9uqt4hv70ZLa71VHHGmdnbCFTvoiMH+O3SNvStg56tkE0vpquNTbQxcjegrn9ORzdu Ex+SHT4iRUsCT9Ylijrjwi7RPVyjJAHOx2V6vzrziV1bDNpmDuQKXxplZDNodtKAGAHt 3TWdIWocuHEnWtruBHNiLrAsZo321t/4w9lP/v5XXM64M0XQb6nIcESIgpIu4qxLwZjC BGB5bjeffXKL0tqdsoytF64WGcHG1LqGoBTLitHZBcYF5t6D8n3b1faYVkgNmRzrADSw VWVw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC00KuOqx0DA8xT0ha7qNuRn3W+IP53pmBnTAjfYLCScbGeXOD56bWPlp9ruI0yqzEWCkq+yQ8ki4EYTWFw== X-Received: by 10.129.125.215 with SMTP id y206mr64562295ywc.234.1481149362871; Wed, 07 Dec 2016 14:22:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.176.5 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Dec 2016 14:22:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <148114917591.13654.13605430296739606313.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <148114917591.13654.13605430296739606313.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 16:22:42 -0600 Message-ID: To: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11492dfaa22bb3054318f5bd Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] Fwd: Personnel change for tsvwg WG X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 22:22:45 -0000 --001a11492dfaa22bb3054318f5bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear TSVWG, I'd like to thank Wes Eddy for being willing to serve as third co-chair for TSVWG. Many of you already know Wes as my predecessor TSV AD, and more recently, he's been co-chairing the AQM working group. Please welcome him! Spencer ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: IETF Secretariat Date: Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:19 PM Subject: Personnel change for tsvwg WG To: wes@mti-systems.com, iesg-secretary@ietf.org, tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com Chairs added: "Wesley Eddy" --001a11492dfaa22bb3054318f5bd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear TSVWG,

I'd like to thank Wes E= ddy for being willing to serve as third co-chair for TSVWG.

<= /div>
Many of you already know Wes as my predecessor TSV AD, and more r= ecently, he's been co-chairing the AQM working group.=C2=A0
<= br>
Please welcome him!

Spencer

---------- Forwarded message ----------From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-re= ply@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:19 PM
Subject= : Personnel change for tsvwg WG
To: wes@mti-systems.com, iesg= -secretary@ietf.org, tsvwg-cha= irs@ietf.org, spencerd= awkins.ietf@gmail.com


Chairs added: "Wesley Eddy" = <wes@mti-systems.com>

--001a11492dfaa22bb3054318f5bd-- From nobody Wed Dec 7 23:36:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B0C7129536; Wed, 7 Dec 2016 23:36:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V-0GWCvGjD2E; Wed, 7 Dec 2016 23:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F0412968B; Wed, 7 Dec 2016 23:36:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (galactica.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.210.32]) by pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 41CDC1B0018C; Thu, 8 Dec 2016 09:34:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 212.159.18.54 (SquirrelMail authenticated user gorry) by erg.abdn.ac.uk with HTTP; Thu, 8 Dec 2016 07:36:28 -0000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 07:36:28 -0000 From: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk To: tsvwg@ietf.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Archived-At: Cc: tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata as PS, closes 22 Dec 2016 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2016 07:36:36 -0000 This mail announces a TSVWG Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on: Stream Schedulers and User Message Interleaving for SCTP draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata This WGLC will last for 2 weeks weeks. Comments should be sent to the tsvwg@ietf.org list, although purely editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: the WG chairs at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org if you would like the chairs to track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC process. No IPR disclosures have been submitted directly on draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata. Thanks, Gorry (TSVWG Co-Chair) From nobody Wed Dec 7 23:37:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F020512968E; Wed, 7 Dec 2016 23:37:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RqOi6BE1wCKy; Wed, 7 Dec 2016 23:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68411129536; Wed, 7 Dec 2016 23:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from Gs-MacBook-Pro.local (fgrpf.plus.com [212.159.18.54]) by pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 55B151B0018C; Thu, 8 Dec 2016 09:35:28 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <58490DA9.5090700@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2016 07:37:13 +0000 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: University of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tsvwg@ietf.org, tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata as PS, closes 22 Dec 2016 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2016 07:37:33 -0000 This email announces a TSVWG Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on: DiffServ to IEEE 802.11 Mapping draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11/ This WGLC will last for about 2 weeks weeks. Comments should be sent to the tsvwg@ietf.org list, although purely editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: the WG chairs at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org if you would like the chairs to track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC process. No IPR disclosures have been submitted directly on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01 Thanks, Gorry (TSVWG Co-Chair) From nobody Thu Dec 8 00:09:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F099129507; Thu, 8 Dec 2016 00:08:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.39.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148118453850.6891.16741717155812108716.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:08:58 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-13.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2016 08:08:58 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group of the IETF. Title : Diffserv-Interconnection classes and practice Authors : Ruediger Geib David L. Black Filename : draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-13.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2016-12-08 Abstract: This document defines a limited common set of Diffserv PHBs and codepoints (DSCPs) to be applied at (inter)connections of two separately administered and operated networks, and explains how this approach can simplify network configuration and operation. Many network providers operate MPLS using Treatment Aggregates for traffic marked with different Diffserv Per Hop Behaviors, and use MPLS for interconnection with other networks. This document offers a simple interconnection approach that may simplify operation of Diffserv for network interconnection among providers that use MPLS and apply the Short-Pipe tunnel mode. While motivated by the requirements of MPLS network operators that use Short-Pipe tunnels, this document is applicable to other networks, both MPLS and non-MPLS. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-13 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-13 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Dec 8 18:32:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDD301294C0 for ; Thu, 8 Dec 2016 18:32:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); domainkeys=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.from=David.Black@dell.com header.d=dell.com; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dell.com 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--_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362F788B17MX307CL04corpem_-- From nobody Fri Dec 9 01:03:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D4D412A270 for ; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 01:03:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YTaTjG5wNQzz for ; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 01:03:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate 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2016 10:02:46 +0100 From: "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE)" To: "Black, David" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: ECN experimentation draft - support adoption Thread-Index: AdJLRO+JXIUhGyF3Tr2t1h4o+ofvRQGtXfLA Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 09:02:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.39] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] ECN experimentation draft - support adoption X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2016 09:03:38 -0000 SSBzdXBwb3J0IGFkb3B0aW9uLg0KDQpLb2VuLg0KDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdl LS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogdHN2d2cgW21haWx0bzp0c3Z3Zy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBC 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V0cuDQo+ID4gPg0KPiA+ID4gQWxsIGNvbW1lbnRzIG5lZWQgdG8gYmUgcmVjZWl2ZWQgYnkgOXRo IERlYyAyMDE2LCBhZnRlciB3aGljaCBhIGRlY2lzaW9uDQo+ID4gPiB3aWxsIGJlIG1hZGUgb24g aG93IHRvIHByb2dyZXNzLiAoWW91IG1heSByZWFkIGFib3V0IHRoZSBhZG9wdGlvbg0KPiBwcm9j ZXNzDQo+ID4gPiBpbiBSRkM3MjIxLikNCg== From nobody Fri Dec 9 08:56:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 632251298B7 for ; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 08:56:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lYAX7X1XuYVP for ; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 08:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.ee.ethz.ch (smtp.ee.ethz.ch [129.132.2.219]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A457E129496 for ; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 08:56:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.ee.ethz.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73FC3D9307; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 17:55:58 +0100 (MET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new on smtp.ee.ethz.ch Received: from smtp.ee.ethz.ch ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (.ee.ethz.ch [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id v11RXaZVAccy; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 17:55:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from [82.130.103.143] (nb-10510.ethz.ch [82.130.103.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: mirjak) by smtp.ee.ethz.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3F94BD9302; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 17:55:58 +0100 (MET) From: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= To: tsvwg@ietf.org, marcelo bagnulo braun , Bob Briscoe Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 17:55:58 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] Review of draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn-01 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2016 16:56:15 -0000 Hi all, find below review comments for draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn-01 as an individual contributor (classified in different categories): Comments on Argumentation: Please note that I do support the document and marking of control packets given the otherwise negative impact on performance especially if we would aim for an all-ECN Internet in future. These additional arguments are provided to be added for discussion in the doc for completeness. Section 2 (the reliability argument) ----- Even though this is not spelled out like this in RFC3168, I would like to extend the argument here a little: 1) I'm okay to say that if loss is not detected reliably for this kind of packet, you may as well not require to detect CE marks. However, receiving a CE mark, detecting it, and just no reacting to it, is a different thing. I clearly see the trade-off here for TCP but I don't want this to be a statement where other protocols say it's okay to not react to CE because TCP is doing this as well for ACKs. Note sure yet how to solve this problem and I'm not comfortable with recommending to mark control packets whiteout at the same time defining standard mechanisms for TCP how to react to it. 2) If a packet is dropped, it's gone and cannot further congest the link. This is the mechanism of the network to protect itself. However, if you mark a packet as ECN capable, it keeps sitting in the queue and another non-ECT packet might be dropped instead. This is a well-known general problem of ECN, however, if the ECT-marked is then also unresponsive to CE marking, this might make the situation worse. Section 3 (TCP SYNs): Argument 3 (DoS attacks) --- Having ECT marked attack traffic makes it worse because this might leads to a even higher loss rate for non-ECT traffic while ECT packets keep sitting in the queue. Section 4 (Pure ACKs): second argument --- The difference it that an CE marking on a ACK can be detected by the receiver (even though it not fully clear how to react to it or just ignore it...hopefully not) but you can't detect ACK loss because you don't know how many ACKs have been send initially. I don't think this is an issue but you say: "If the pure ACK carrying the ECT and the CE bits set is later dropped by the network, it will be essentially falling back to the use of drop as congestion signal." which seems wrong. However, this is on the other had a pro argument because while loss cannot be detected at all, there is at least a chance to detect CE marked ACKs. Comments on the more editorial side: 1) One more argument to make in the intro, especially as you mention l4s, is that in this case, having the packets not marked as ECT could even lead to differential network treatment, which might influence performance even more. 2) I would recommend to move the discussion on data centers in section 3 to a separate section at the end of the doc because that's the only time you talk about data centers. 3) In section 3 regarding [ecn-pam], you are assuming that the packets were dropped the the endpoint/receiver, however, there could also be middleboxes doing this. I don't think we looked at RST but that would be interesting. 3) section 3 "The responder may drop the SYN (either silently or by sending a RST) or may reply with a non ECT marked SYN/ACK. If it is the latter, then this is a non-issue" -> I wouldn't call it a non-issue because at least the congestion signal got lost. 4) I think you need security considerations. Nit: section 3, 1. sentence: s/We next describe he arguments exhibited/We next describe the arguments exhibited/ And the important bit at the end: One high-level comment: This document is a good read, however, it is not clear what an implementor should actually do if he/she want to enable ECN on control packets. Instead of only have an informational discussion, I would rather see an experiment where you proposed concrete things/machanims that should/must be done when ECN is used on control packets. Further, at the end of section 3, you not only discuss potential fallbacks/safety guards on how to use ECN on control packets but you actually propose changes to the ECN protocol as specified in RFC3168. This part really doesn't seem to be appropriate for an informational doc and also would need further discussion as an experiment. As you have to rely for these mechanism on changes on both the sender and receiver side, I would simply just use AccECN instead. This would mean there should maybe be a recommendation that if the initiator wants to set ECT on control packets incl. the SYN it should/must also try to negotiate AccECN in the handshake (which anyway as an implict fallback to calssic ECN if AccECN is not supported by the receiver). Thanks for writing the doc. I think this is a very good starting point! Mirja From nobody Fri Dec 9 12:35:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C017D129586 for ; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 12:35:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H-FzvhKw3lpp for ; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 12:35:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from drew.franken.de (drew.ipv6.franken.de [IPv6:2001:638:a02:a001:20e:cff:fe4a:feaa]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 443AF129535 for ; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 12:35:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.103] (p508F1379.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.143.19.121]) (Authenticated sender: macmic) by mail-n.franken.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A7416721E280D; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 21:35:02 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.1 \(3251\)) From: Michael Tuexen In-Reply-To: <20161201223610.C7F47B80461@rfc-editor.org> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 21:35:01 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <09B740B4-4237-4169-A592-F3E023A4738C@lurchi.franken.de> References: <20161201223610.C7F47B80461@rfc-editor.org> To: RFC Errata System X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) Archived-At: Cc: Gorry Fairhurst , tsvwg WG , "Black, David" , "Mirja Kuehlewind \(IETF\)" , randall , Julien Pourtet Subject: Re: [tsvwg] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4960 (4876) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2016 20:35:09 -0000 > On 1 Dec 2016, at 23:36, RFC Errata System = wrote: >=20 > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4960, > "Stream Control Transmission Protocol". >=20 > -------------------------------------- > You may review the report below and at: > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4960&eid=3D4876 >=20 > -------------------------------------- > Type: Technical > Reported by: Julien Pourtet >=20 > Section: 5.1.5. >=20 > Original Text > ------------- > 3) Compare the port numbers and the Verification Tag contained > within the COOKIE ECHO chunk to the actual port numbers and the > Verification Tag within the SCTP common header of the received > packet. If these values do not match, the packet MUST be > silently discarded. >=20 > Corrected Text > -------------- > 3) Compare the port numbers and the Verification Tag contained > within the TCB data carried in the State Cookie to the actual > port numbers and the Verification Tag within the SCTP common > header of the received packet. If these values do not match, > the packet MUST be silently discarded. >=20 > Notes > ----- > The comparison has to be performed between the values found in the = SCTP common header and what is inside the TCB carried in the State = Cookie. The current phrasing can lead to think that there are = Verifcation Tag and port number fields within the COOKIE ECHO chunk yet = outside the State Cookie. I don't understand your argument. The COOKIE-ECHO chunk only contains = the cookie as its value. The COOKIE-ECHO chunk is defined in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4960#section-3.3.11 and everything "within the COOKIE ECHO chunk yet outside the State = Cookie" is the chunk header. The chunk header does not contain a verification tag or port numbers. These are in the common header. I = think the original text is fine. Best regards Michael >=20 > Instructions: > ------------- > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party =20 > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------- > RFC4960 (draft-ietf-tsvwg-2960bis-05) > -------------------------------------- > Title : Stream Control Transmission Protocol > Publication Date : September 2007 > Author(s) : R. Stewart, Ed. > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD > Source : Transport Area Working Group > Area : Transport > Stream : IETF > Verifying Party : IESG >=20 From j.pourtet@gmail.com Fri Dec 9 14:29:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79CB8129570 for ; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 14:29:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gkwGlTGY8xTp for ; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 14:29:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-x22c.google.com (mail-yw0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E65BD12953C for ; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 14:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id i145so25590409ywg.2 for ; Fri, 09 Dec 2016 14:29:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BonafQ15SZrWv0UpjpUTLW7VKCdj4e4m5IpHb7HAX0E=; b=vz+7uryylcXMyv7wI0N5miyJOCs/D4k/72OSjcf26rJa3ytUwsNwuckTh3DXm51be8 ihiCP+u8/897df8h3dcFdzqWXZfieiV19QhumJWIdo9i3X6EaaD7GZgxiQw8R4h/7JGS QD1h37YZ3svhBE/fAMJxkynWnhTa2gnXma2E76FVD+4TF8sbYK8W5JK2wRVxqMAMmgti AHAcMXSgdkX9cm5EVSze0+ARiB16BEffvxFgFKfLugJVkOs+fiaQ33UrnXme4C/rLzfx SoNtDcXw9pew3IE7NA4IkEHKaC+cNK0Wn4ICfBuWSv45vHLm5EP9t1fO/P0NA1GzanHG THNQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BonafQ15SZrWv0UpjpUTLW7VKCdj4e4m5IpHb7HAX0E=; b=kwtYLOmOhjJU3LJ3z5j1IbYDMehguYT3MwQ/oedRoCJYw4146Sp3plKypY/vaKg0WT 8a4EACe/Y76mja0Bbv4JdLxW5ZOVbnwy/4OKZ/PS7REz5gNy3xz/2ulIKJvdbS5MFXg6 Cn/VLxsBL7WvLOTJ3kz8+tXy3EpaYJIcNq0LH9bux4VNIDifm9YGHzXGeGDQHZvHBh5E KL0gUY0qwVGdGXtfLKrLCiptaTH4+mZEjF0Ue+82RO38ePxBvmjQibO6twQ7bjhd2mLm YsddIVCwcjUCnbvqkPJ+YLXm++gsKAC1P3NbmUF65+NzGhVua8bJEB6vddUA19fdk6rC uSow== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC01BD2YoPSE1qsQGm31Ac5icUWJfCY6M0FwkRByoq3hpGgH82a3827YO+n07hwUAV93oHg5VqR7ibUU5pw== X-Received: by 10.13.195.5 with SMTP id f5mr84795764ywd.354.1481322593813; Fri, 09 Dec 2016 14:29:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.129.3.215 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Dec 2016 14:29:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <09B740B4-4237-4169-A592-F3E023A4738C@lurchi.franken.de> References: <20161201223610.C7F47B80461@rfc-editor.org> <09B740B4-4237-4169-A592-F3E023A4738C@lurchi.franken.de> From: Julien Pourtet Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2016 14:29:33 -0800 Message-ID: To: Michael Tuexen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114d5fd60093c10543414bff Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Dec 2016 18:20:24 -0800 Cc: Gorry Fairhurst , tsvwg WG , "Black, David" , "Mirja Kuehlewind \(IETF\)" , randall , RFC Errata System Subject: Re: [tsvwg] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC4960 (4876) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2016 23:23:26 -0000 --001a114d5fd60093c10543414bff Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 What I am trying to say is that in the context of section 5.1.5 we seem to use State Cookie and COOKIE ECHO chunk interchangeably. In my mind, at least, a COOKIE ECHO chunk is made of a header and a value, which is the State Cookie. I found confusing that we were not sticking to 'State Cookie' when talking about where the Verification Tag and port numbers were located. The more precise, the better, IMO. That being said, I think you're right, Section 3.3.11 lifts the ambiguity. Please disregard my erratum report. Best, Julien Pourtet On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Michael Tuexen < Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de> wrote: > > On 1 Dec 2016, at 23:36, RFC Errata System > wrote: > > > > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4960, > > "Stream Control Transmission Protocol". > > > > -------------------------------------- > > You may review the report below and at: > > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=4960&eid=4876 > > > > -------------------------------------- > > Type: Technical > > Reported by: Julien Pourtet > > > > Section: 5.1.5. > > > > Original Text > > ------------- > > 3) Compare the port numbers and the Verification Tag contained > > within the COOKIE ECHO chunk to the actual port numbers and the > > Verification Tag within the SCTP common header of the received > > packet. If these values do not match, the packet MUST be > > silently discarded. > > > > Corrected Text > > -------------- > > 3) Compare the port numbers and the Verification Tag contained > > within the TCB data carried in the State Cookie to the actual > > port numbers and the Verification Tag within the SCTP common > > header of the received packet. If these values do not match, > > the packet MUST be silently discarded. > > > > Notes > > ----- > > The comparison has to be performed between the values found in the SCTP > common header and what is inside the TCB carried in the State Cookie. The > current phrasing can lead to think that there are Verifcation Tag and port > number fields within the COOKIE ECHO chunk yet outside the State Cookie. > I don't understand your argument. The COOKIE-ECHO chunk only contains the > cookie as its value. > The COOKIE-ECHO chunk is defined in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4960#section-3.3.11 > and everything "within the COOKIE ECHO chunk yet outside the State Cookie" > is the chunk header. The chunk header does not contain > a verification tag or port numbers. These are in the common header. I > think the original text is fine. > > Best regards > Michael > > > > > Instructions: > > ------------- > > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party > > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. > > > > -------------------------------------- > > RFC4960 (draft-ietf-tsvwg-2960bis-05) > > -------------------------------------- > > Title : Stream Control Transmission Protocol > > Publication Date : September 2007 > > Author(s) : R. Stewart, Ed. > > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD > > Source : Transport Area Working Group > > Area : Transport > > Stream : IETF > > Verifying Party : IESG > > > > --001a114d5fd60093c10543414bff Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What I am trying to say is that in the context of section = 5.1.5 we seem to use State Cookie and COOKIE ECHO chunk interchangeably. In= my mind, at least, a COOKIE ECHO chunk is made of a header and a value, wh= ich is the State Cookie.=C2=A0 I found confusing that we were not sticking = to 'State Cookie' when talking about where the Verification Tag and= port numbers were located. The more precise, the better, IMO.

That being said, I think you're right, Section 3.3.11 lifts the = ambiguity. Please disregard my erratum report.

Bes= t,
Julien Pourtet

On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Michael Tuexen <Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de> wrote:
> On 1= Dec 2016, at 23:36, RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> wrote:
>
> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4960,
> "Stream Control Transmission Protocol".
>
> --------------------------------------
> You may review the report below and at:
> http://www.rfc-editor.org/= errata_search.php?rfc=3D4960&eid=3D4876
>
> --------------------------------------
> Type: Technical
> Reported by: Julien Pourtet <j.pourtet@gmail.com>
>
> Section: 5.1.5.
>
> Original Text
> -------------
> 3)=C2=A0 Compare the port numbers and the Verification Tag contained >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 within the COOKIE ECHO chunk to the actual port numbers a= nd the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Verification Tag within the SCTP common header of the rec= eived
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet.=C2=A0 If these values do not match, the packet MU= ST be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 silently discarded.
>
> Corrected Text
> --------------
> 3)=C2=A0 Compare the port numbers and the Verification Tag contained >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 within the TCB data carried in the State Cookie to the ac= tual
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 port numbers and the Verification Tag within the SCTP com= mon
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 header of the received packet.=C2=A0 If these values do n= ot match,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the packet MUST be silently discarded.
>
> Notes
> -----
> The comparison has to be performed between the values found in the SCT= P common header and what is inside the TCB carried in the State Cookie. The= current phrasing can lead to think that there are Verifcation Tag and port= number fields within the COOKIE ECHO chunk yet outside the State Cookie.
I don't understand your argument. The COOKIE-ECHO chunk onl= y contains the cookie as its value.
The COOKIE-ECHO chunk is defined in
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4960#section-3= .3.11
and everything "within the COOKIE ECHO chunk yet outside the State Coo= kie" is the chunk header. The chunk header does not contain
a verification tag or port numbers. These are in the common header. I think= the original text is fine.

Best regards
Michael

>
> Instructions:
> -------------
> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary= , please
> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or<= br> > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party
> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
>
> --------------------------------------
> RFC4960 (draft-ietf-tsvwg-2960bis-05)
> --------------------------------------
> Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Stream C= ontrol Transmission Protocol
> Publication Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : September 2007
> Author(s)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: R. Stewart, Ed. > Category=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : PROPOSED STANDARD<= br> > Source=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Transport Are= a Working Group
> Area=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Transpor= t
> Stream=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : IETF
> Verifying Party=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IESG
>


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draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn-01 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 02:36:35 -0000 SGkgTWlyamENClsrdGNwbSBXR10NCg0KVGhlIGRhdGF0cmFja2VyIHJlY29yZHMgZHJhZnQtYmFn bnVsby10c3Z3Zy1nZW5lcmFsaXplZC1lY24gYXMgcmVwbGFjZWQNCmJ5IGRyYWZ0LWJhZ251bG8t dGNwbS1nZW5lcmFsaXplZC1lY24gLSB0aGUgbGF0dGVyIGRyYWZ0IGlzIGV4cGVjdGVkIHRvIG1v dmUNCnRoaXMgd29yayBmb3J3YXJkIGluIHRoZSB0Y3BtIFdHLg0KDQpUaGFua3MsIC0tRGF2aWQN Cg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiB0c3Z3ZyBbbWFpbHRvOnRz dndnLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBNaXJqYSBLw7xobGV3aW5kDQo+IFNl bnQ6IEZyaWRheSwgRGVjZW1iZXIgMDksIDIwMTYgMTE6NTYgQU0NCj4gVG86IHRzdndnQGlldGYu b3JnOyBtYXJjZWxvIGJhZ251bG8gYnJhdW47IEJvYiBCcmlzY29lDQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFt0c3Z3 Z10gUmV2aWV3IG9mIGRyYWZ0LWJhZ251bG8tdHN2d2ctZ2VuZXJhbGl6ZWQtZWNuLTAxDQo+IA0K 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tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 805B412007C; Sat, 10 Dec 2016 01:39:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id afpzenX74kgJ; Sat, 10 Dec 2016 01:39:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.ee.ethz.ch (smtp.ee.ethz.ch [129.132.2.219]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 240411295BE; Sat, 10 Dec 2016 01:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.ee.ethz.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74C6D9304; Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:39:22 +0100 (MET) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new on smtp.ee.ethz.ch Received: from smtp.ee.ethz.ch ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (.ee.ethz.ch [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id WFy72RyH8mBy; Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:39:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from [192.168.178.33] (p5DEC28B1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.236.40.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: mirjak) by smtp.ee.ethz.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 736C6D9303; Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:39:22 +0100 (MET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.1 \(3251\)) From: =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:39:23 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: "Black, David" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) Archived-At: Cc: marcelo bagnulo braun , "tcpm@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Review of draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn-01 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 09:39:27 -0000 Hi David, yes, I already realized that I reviewed the wrong doc. The right review = on the tcpm list will follow soon. I set the =E2=80=9Areplaces=E2=80=98 = relation yesterday after noticing.=20 @all: Please make sure you set this correctly if you upload a draft with = a new name! Mirja > Am 10.12.2016 um 03:36 schrieb Black, David : >=20 > Hi Mirja > [+tcpm WG] >=20 > The datatracker records draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn as = replaced > by draft-bagnulo-tcpm-generalized-ecn - the latter draft is expected = to move > this work forward in the tcpm WG. >=20 > Thanks, --David >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind >> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2016 11:56 AM >> To: tsvwg@ietf.org; marcelo bagnulo braun; Bob Briscoe >> Subject: [tsvwg] Review of draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn-01 >>=20 >> Hi all, >>=20 >> find below review comments for draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn-01 = as an >> individual contributor (classified in different categories): >>=20 >> Comments on Argumentation: >> Please note that I do support the document and marking of control = packets >> given the otherwise negative impact on performance especially if we = would aim >> for an all-ECN Internet in future. These additional arguments are = provided to >> be added for discussion in the doc for completeness. >>=20 >> Section 2 (the reliability argument) >> ----- >> Even though this is not spelled out like this in RFC3168, I would = like to >> extend the argument here a little: >>=20 >> 1) I'm okay to say that if loss is not detected reliably for this = kind of >> packet, you may as well not require to detect CE marks. However, = receiving a >> CE mark, detecting it, and just no reacting to it, is a different = thing. I >> clearly see the trade-off here for TCP but I don't want this to be a >> statement where other protocols say it's okay to not react to CE = because TCP >> is doing this as well for ACKs. Note sure yet how to solve this = problem and >> I'm not comfortable with recommending to mark control packets = whiteout at the >> same time defining standard mechanisms for TCP how to react to it. >>=20 >> 2) If a packet is dropped, it's gone and cannot further congest the = link. >> This is the mechanism of the network to protect itself. However, if = you mark >> a packet as ECN capable, it keeps sitting in the queue and another = non-ECT >> packet might be dropped instead. This is a well-known general problem = of ECN, >> however, if the ECT-marked is then also unresponsive to CE marking, = this >> might make the situation worse. >>=20 >> Section 3 (TCP SYNs): Argument 3 (DoS attacks) >> --- >> Having ECT marked attack traffic makes it worse because this might = leads to a >> even higher loss rate for non-ECT traffic while ECT packets keep = sitting in >> the queue. >>=20 >> Section 4 (Pure ACKs): second argument >> --- >> The difference it that an CE marking on a ACK can be detected by the = receiver >> (even though it not fully clear how to react to it or just ignore >> it...hopefully not) but you can't detect ACK loss because you don't = know how >> many ACKs have been send initially. I don't think this is an issue = but you say: >> "If the pure ACK carrying the >> ECT and the CE bits set is later dropped by the network, it will = be >> essentially falling back to the use of drop as congestion signal." >> which seems wrong. >>=20 >> However, this is on the other had a pro argument because while loss = cannot be >> detected at all, there is at least a chance to detect CE marked ACKs. >>=20 >>=20 >> Comments on the more editorial side: >> 1) One more argument to make in the intro, especially as you mention = l4s, is >> that in this case, having the packets not marked as ECT could even = lead to >> differential network treatment, which might influence performance = even more. >> 2) I would recommend to move the discussion on data centers in = section 3 to a >> separate section at the end of the doc because that's the only time = you talk >> about data centers. >> 3) In section 3 regarding [ecn-pam], you are assuming that the = packets were >> dropped the the endpoint/receiver, however, there could also be = middleboxes >> doing this. I don't think we looked at RST but that would be = interesting. >> 3) section 3 "The responder may drop the SYN (either silently or by = sending a >> RST) or may reply with a non ECT marked SYN/ACK. If it is the = latter, >> then this is a non-issue" -> I wouldn't call it a non-issue = because at >> least the congestion signal got lost. >> 4) I think you need security considerations. >>=20 >> Nit: >> section 3, 1. sentence: s/We next describe he arguments exhibited/We = next >> describe the arguments exhibited/ >>=20 >> And the important bit at the end: >>=20 >> One high-level comment: >> This document is a good read, however, it is not clear what an = implementor >> should actually do if he/she want to enable ECN on control packets. = Instead >> of only have an informational discussion, I would rather see an = experiment >> where you proposed concrete things/machanims that should/must be done >> when >> ECN is used on control packets. >>=20 >> Further, at the end of section 3, you not only discuss potential >> fallbacks/safety guards on how to use ECN on control packets but you = actually >> propose changes to the ECN protocol as specified in RFC3168. This = part really >> doesn't seem to be appropriate for an informational doc and also = would need >> further discussion as an experiment. As you have to rely for these = mechanism >> on changes on both the sender and receiver side, I would simply just = use >> AccECN instead. This would mean there should maybe be a = recommendation that >> if the initiator wants to set ECT on control packets incl. the SYN it >> should/must also try to negotiate AccECN in the handshake (which = anyway as an >> implict fallback to calssic ECN if AccECN is not supported by the = receiver). >>=20 >> Thanks for writing the doc. I think this is a very good starting = point! >>=20 >> Mirja >=20 From nobody Mon Dec 12 09:27:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE8D12953E for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2016 09:27:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gK3TFZg4zvJX for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2016 09:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:241:204::f0f0]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5A2E12945A for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2016 09:27:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from dhcp-207-163.erg.abdn.ac.uk (unknown [IPv6:2001:630:241:207:11e6:1921:b706:ab55]) by pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 348CB1B0020A for ; Mon, 12 Dec 2016 19:25:39 +0000 (GMT) References: To: tsvwg WG From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683. X-Forwarded-Message-Id: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 17:27:29 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01 as PS, closes 31 Dec 2016 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 17:27:34 -0000 This email announces a TSVWG Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on: DiffServ to IEEE 802.11 Mapping draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11/ This WGLC will last for about 3 weeks weeks (due to the holiday season). Comments should be sent to the tsvwg@ietf.org list, although purely editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: the WG chairs at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org if you would like the chairs to track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC process. No IPR disclosures have been submitted directly on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01 Thanks, Gorry, David and Wes (TSVWG Co-Chairs) From nobody Wed Dec 14 03:49:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B06C129DF0 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 03:49:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.795 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.795 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XqH4mTZqxewm for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 03:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.fh-muenster.de (mail.fh-muenster.de [212.201.120.190]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1430129DE2 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 03:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.101] (unknown [212.201.121.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ruengele) by mail.fh-muenster.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC88F28444A for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 12:49:11 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Irene_R=C3=BCngeler?= Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.1 \(3251\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_72DC5E9F-8538-4E6A-814A-CCAC8D33E934"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 12:49:11 +0100 References: To: tsvwg@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata as PS, closes 22 Dec 2016 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 11:49:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_72DC5E9F-8538-4E6A-814A-CCAC8D33E934 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BB49B1EF-6F7B-4F81-A95C-77EAB96461D6" --Apple-Mail=_BB49B1EF-6F7B-4F81-A95C-77EAB96461D6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I have worked with the draft before and took it to implement I-DATA = chunks in wireshark. I also wrote some tests for I-DATA in packetdrill = and tested the FreeBSD stack. I have read the draft and do not have technical comments. I sent my = editorial comments to Michael Tuexen. Best regards, Irene Ruengeler > Am 08.12.2016 um 08:36 schrieb gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk: >=20 >=20 > This mail announces a TSVWG Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on: >=20 > Stream Schedulers and User Message Interleaving for SCTP > draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata >=20 > This WGLC will last for 2 weeks weeks. >=20 > Comments should be sent to the tsvwg@ietf.org list, although purely > editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: the > WG chairs at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org if you would like the chairs to > track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC process. >=20 > No IPR disclosures have been submitted directly on > draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata. >=20 > Thanks, > Gorry > (TSVWG Co-Chair) >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_BB49B1EF-6F7B-4F81-A95C-77EAB96461D6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi,

I = have worked with the draft before and took it to implement I-DATA chunks = in wireshark. I also wrote some tests for I-DATA in packetdrill and = tested the FreeBSD stack.
I have read the draft and = do not have technical comments. I sent my editorial comments to Michael = Tuexen.

Best = regards,

Irene = Ruengeler









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score=-4.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fjTLwTig5kxu for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 05:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out5.uio.no (mail-out5.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:10::17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18469129619 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 05:08:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-mx3.uio.no ([129.240.10.44]) by mail-out5.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1cH9II-0006SK-0e for tsvwg@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 14:08:26 +0100 Received: from 234.133.189.109.customer.cdi.no ([109.189.133.234] helo=[192.168.1.8]) by mail-mx3.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) user michawe (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1cH9IH-0001OU-Cs for tsvwg@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 14:08:25 +0100 From: Michael Welzl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.1 \(3251\)) Message-Id: <9356BD96-203C-49B9-B1E0-4788499959FD@ifi.uio.no> Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 14:08:24 +0100 To: tsvwg IETF list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) X-UiO-SPF-Received: X-UiO-Ratelimit-Test: rcpts/h 1 msgs/h 1 sum rcpts/h 8 sum msgs/h 4 total rcpts 49989 max rcpts/h 54 ratelimit 0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, TVD_RCVD_IP=0.001, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: 0F9255EE5C306E918214903107BC9DE1640254A7 X-UiO-SPAM-Test: remote_host: 109.189.133.234 spam_score: -49 maxlevel 80 minaction 2 bait 0 mail/h: 1 total 608 max/h 12 blacklist 0 greylist 0 ratelimit 0 Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata-08 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 13:09:03 -0000 Hi all, I also read the document now. 90% editorial / nits below. I do think this is a very valuable document! (hence also my comment: = why does the text say that this is =E2=80=9Coff by default=E2=80=9D ?) Cheers, Michael --- Shouldn't it say "arbitrarily" in: "The Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) is a message oriented transport protocol supporting arbitrary large user messages." 1.1: I think this misses ", this can" after the reference to RFC4960: "When such large messages are sent over SCTP as specified in [RFC4960] can result in a form..." It should be "Figure 1" or "The following figure", I think, in: " The following Figure 1 illustrates the behaviour of a round robin stream scheduler using DATA chunks." Fig.1 and fig.2: I'm guessing that SID is Stream Identifier? I don't = think it's defined / explained before the figure, it wouldn't hurt to = remind the reader what that means. I expected it to be defined in = RFC4960 at least, but the abbreviation list there doesn't contain "SID" = either. Suggest to remove comma after "should be noted" in: "It should be noted, that an SCTP implementation needs to support the coexistence of associations using DATA chunks and associations using I-DATA chunks." section 2.2.2: "Please note" strikes me as a bit odd for an RFC, here: "Please note that this is the only form of interleaving support." This sentence seems a bit broken: " Upon reception of an SCTP packet containing an I-DATA chunk if the message needs to be reassembled, then the receiver MUST use the FSN for reassembly of the message and not the TSN. " I'd fix this to: "If, upon reception of ...., the message needs..." 2.3.1: missing "to" after "refers" in: "The U bit specifies if the Message Identifier of this entry refers unordered messages" sec 3: "The set of schedulers being implemented is implementation dependent.=E2=80=9D this seems a little odd to me. Maybe this is the place for clearer, = 2119-style language? To say that the following is a set of possible = schedulers, any of them MAY be implemented? sec 3.3: this description isn=E2=80=99t clear enough, I think - the use = of =E2=80=9Cbundles=E2=80=9D here confuses me=E2=80=A6 not sure how this = should be implemented? 3.4: again, the use of =E2=80=9Cimplementation specific=E2=80=9D here = seems strange - I=E2=80=99d rather say: =E2=80=9C, =E2=80=A6 any form of = scheduling between them MAY be used.=E2=80=9D Much here is a bit vague=E2=80=A6 e.g. in 3.6: "schedules them in a certain way to use the bandwidth according to the = given weights. The details are implementation specific.=E2=80=9D I understand that you don=E2=80=99t want to prescribe details on how to = implement the WFQ scheduler, but =E2=80=9Cin a certain way to us the = bandwidth according to the given weights=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t even = precisely prescribe the resulting behavior. If you leave both the = implementation and the resulting behavior open, this section may be = worthless? To be clearer about my concern: the priorities could, for example, be = linear or exponential. E.g., priority 3 could mean 3 times as much = bandwidth as priority 1. But, for example, = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-17#section-4.1 = specifies this differently: =E2=80=9C... SHOULD cause data to be emitted = in such a way that each stream at each level of priority is being given = approximately twice the transmission capacity (measured in payload = bytes) of the level below.=E2=80=9D So, IMO, the precise meaning of = priorities must be clear from the text in this draft. Summarizing for section 3, it would be good to add an example = illustrating the expected behavior (a bit like Fig.1) for each of the = schedulers. Also: as shown by figure 1, these stream schedulers can operate without = interleaving too. This doesn=E2=80=99t get very clear =E2=80=A6 the = introduction should explain that this document also describes stream = schedulers, how they are exposed in the sockets API, and how they would = operate with and without interleaving. Section 4.3.1 says: " User message interleaving is disabled per = default.=E2=80=9D Isn=E2=80=99t this a bad idea? This just seems to me to make things = better, what=E2=80=99s the reason not to always use it? Come to think of it - if there indeed is a trade-off here, a good reason = to sometimes *not* use this mechanism, this should be explained, = probably in the introduction. (I could only think of slightly more header overhead - is this such a = big deal?) 4.3.2: is this possible with or without interleaving? I=E2=80=99d guess = it=E2=80=99s possible without, but it would be nice to have this = explicit, as somehow this whole document reads as if it=E2=80=99s really = about interleaving. From nobody Wed Dec 14 05:19:11 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4062E129655 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 05:19:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0k5Tov1m_Q6Y for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 05:19:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:241:204::f0f0]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0742129638 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 05:19:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from dhcp-207-163.erg.abdn.ac.uk (unknown [IPv6:2001:630:241:207:a467:de96:8224:a8ac]) by pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 486EA1B0020A for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:17:16 +0000 (GMT) References: <148156879359.22433.15871366796139896125.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: tsvwg WG From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683. X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <148156879359.22433.15871366796139896125.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <7aba93dc-317b-b807-b8c5-c956c7b47788@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 13:19:06 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <148156879359.22433.15871366796139896125.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] Fwd: IETF WG state changed for draft-black-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 13:19:10 -0000 The IETF WG state of draft-black-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation has been changed to "Adopted by a WG" from "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" by Gorry Fairhurst (TSVWG Co-Chair): https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-black-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/ The Chairs have noted support for work on this draft from the TSVWG list. There were no notes discouraging adoption. This work is duly adopted as a work item targeting publication of a PS RFC. David, please submit a replacement draft as draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation. Best wishes, Gorry From nobody Thu Dec 15 00:13:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B9D1129B41 for ; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:13:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QsyewgdqZq19 for ; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:13:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from drew.franken.de (mail-n.franken.de [193.175.24.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DE41129B33 for ; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:13:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.108] (unknown [212.201.121.94]) (Authenticated sender: macmic) by mail-n.franken.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B95AF721E280D; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 09:13:14 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Michael Tuexen X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 09:13:14 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <93B6CDD9-5A4F-4F2A-B08F-93666F01D468@lurchi.franken.de> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Irene_R=C3=BCngeler?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata as PS, closes 22 Dec 2016 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:13:20 -0000 > On 14 Dec 2016, at 12:49, Irene R=C3=BCngeler = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I have worked with the draft before and took it to implement I-DATA = chunks in wireshark. I also wrote some tests for I-DATA in packetdrill = and tested the FreeBSD stack. > I have read the draft and do not have technical comments. I sent my = editorial comments to Michael Tuexen. Hi Irene, thanks a lot for your comments. They have been incorporated. Best regards Michael >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > Irene Ruengeler >=20 >> Am 08.12.2016 um 08:36 schrieb gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk: >>=20 >>=20 >> This mail announces a TSVWG Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on: >>=20 >> Stream Schedulers and User Message Interleaving for SCTP >> draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata >>=20 >> This WGLC will last for 2 weeks weeks. >>=20 >> Comments should be sent to the tsvwg@ietf.org list, although purely >> editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: = the >> WG chairs at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org if you would like the chairs to >> track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC process. >>=20 >> No IPR disclosures have been submitted directly on >> draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata. >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Gorry >> (TSVWG Co-Chair) >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Dec 15 04:49:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6993C129C81; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 04:49:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.39.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148180617842.27574.17784688975822663672.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 04:49:38 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 12:49:38 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group of the IETF. Title : Diffserv-Interconnection classes and practice Authors : Ruediger Geib David L. Black Filename : draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2016-12-15 Abstract: This document defines a limited common set of Diffserv Per Hop Behaviours (PHBs) and codepoints (DSCPs) to be applied at (inter)connections of two separately administered and operated networks, and explains how this approach can simplify network configuration and operation. Many network providers operate Multi Protocol Label Switching (MPLS) using Treatment Aggregates for traffic marked with different Diffserv Per Hop Behaviors, and use MPLS for interconnection with other networks. This document offers a simple interconnection approach that may simplify operation of Diffserv for network interconnection among providers that use MPLS and apply the Short-Pipe tunnel mode. While motivated by the requirements of MPLS network operators that use Short-Pipe tunnels, this document is applicable to other networks, both MPLS and non- MPLS. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Dec 15 08:17:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1934129962 for ; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:17:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.721 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.721 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); domainkeys=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.from=David.Black@dell.com header.d=dell.com; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dell.com header.b=swS5+q38; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=emc.com header.b=LURXdzv6 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MGG2uYXq3zW9 for ; 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Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:17:08 -0500 To: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14.txt Thread-Index: AQHSVtG5wU7dPlXYB06onI8OA6NcxqEJL0BQ Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:17:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <148180617842.27574.17784688975822663672.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <148180617842.27574.17784688975822663672.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.238.44.123] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:17:26 -0000 The -14 version contains what should be the last set of changes resulting from IESG review. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 7:50 AM > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org > Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. > This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group of the IETF= . >=20 > Title : Diffserv-Interconnection classes and practice > Authors : Ruediger Geib > David L. Black > Filename : draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14.txt > Pages : 22 > Date : 2016-12-15 >=20 > Abstract: > This document defines a limited common set of Diffserv Per Hop > Behaviours (PHBs) and codepoints (DSCPs) to be applied at > (inter)connections of two separately administered and operated > networks, and explains how this approach can simplify network > configuration and operation. Many network providers operate Multi > Protocol Label Switching (MPLS) using Treatment Aggregates for > traffic marked with different Diffserv Per Hop Behaviors, and use > MPLS for interconnection with other networks. This document offers a > simple interconnection approach that may simplify operation of > Diffserv for network interconnection among providers that use MPLS > and apply the Short-Pipe tunnel mode. While motivated by the > requirements of MPLS network operators that use Short-Pipe tunnels, > this document is applicable to other networks, both MPLS and non- > MPLS. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon/ >=20 > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Thu Dec 15 16:35:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3755129BEC; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:35:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.40.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148184852773.24657.1227904083363038681.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:35:27 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-00.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 00:35:28 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group of the IETF. Title : Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) Experimentation Author : David Black Filename : draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-00.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2016-12-15 Abstract: Multiple protocol experiments have been proposed that involve changes to Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) as specified in RFC 3168. This memo summarizes the proposed areas of experimentation to provide an overview to the Internet community and updates RFC 3168, a Proposed Standard RFC, to allow the experiments to proceed without requiring a standards process exception for each Experimental RFC to update RFC 3168. Each experiment is still required to be documented in an Experimental RFC. In addition, this memo makes related updates to the ECN specifications for RTP in RFC 6679 and to the ECN specifications for DCCP in RFC 4341, RFC 4342 and RFC 5622. This memo also records the conclusion of the ECN Nonce experiment in RFC 3540, obsoletes RFC 3540 and reclassifies it as Historic to enable new experimental use of the ECT(1) codepoint. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Dec 15 16:48:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA2F129BF0 for ; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:48:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oBHOoEpwh61a for ; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:48:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-x233.google.com (mail-yw0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4282129BEC for ; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:48:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw0-x233.google.com with SMTP id i145so23643863ywg.2 for ; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:48:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=W+LXAUhlYURn9l9LvUmFJHbs0EhIwGKE41IOss+Y79k=; b=QCpq+sqeJLeHoTyRWgG2lIR0Vj4acq7WtYgEpoBsRIH3BZjdEhomLZXTjQo00wsWEf wvXEwv1+BlwvsA/aFURvktVPhHLAN89xCcoRNJbWldh7/ma1HiVqB50x+YkCRIO1Lr6H /QrKzNpyAPCcEGu2l4abpzXuR/TlvLQ4+D0TKzYL9GVuRDub77kfVJWAlHsvXTa461lw WQNgLoDQ9JX9UuOzB7vR/AZlKGOAo29Ml4XrabgRerTb4BwpWAFSKbokM9KsxUikWOAk 2riCV2zbQcv/g0ZzkuJky5I/NGLq0rYAwAv+cBIr2a79pfeQTXOsluN4QUW1brBQajo/ s61Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=W+LXAUhlYURn9l9LvUmFJHbs0EhIwGKE41IOss+Y79k=; b=Df1IsMFt7LAYN5qK5YCMVRBH86fDd+boSBAQSjGuF4Kj1lgIZpCO3nKYB4bCCEuoJt 9YMsy7K8rojKJ+/I0lhcfPGVfU7AnAjN0lTWgGg6PVEahBfm+MvC70UuF0mkouxADRPD izN0737/KVebrBeo+IA4dCZeBiBHfbvNJ8iNsaLlqDPkdMDQJxS89BeXuzIWcgZxp2lv GoB4lMB2v1t4WoaKjvij9dq3/r4hzsWl6LCGHpyjMvjESywS4memIoYi3PhO92MY8XWI jXn8vPc/BE2vj+hArPMYa3GnEYeeXQjgjSa9ctOpe7+qTwpTHx20p5LPu2o3LdzJGMMY Ho7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC03Ooi40n2VJ2Ktku+z94pG+8sh4pMbcXiF65ynajNPrqaM4QK5UN0lbnCEK8CgDx+u1A/2vgZalTu5elg== X-Received: by 10.13.253.6 with SMTP id n6mr307623ywf.26.1481849314035; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:48:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.176.5 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.37.176.5 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:48:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <148180617842.27574.17784688975822663672.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:48:33 -0600 Message-ID: To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c06b164f97e620543bbed33 Archived-At: Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 00:48:37 -0000 --94eb2c06b164f97e620543bbed33 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi, Gorry The Shepherd, On Dec 16, 2016 00:17, "Black, David" wrote: The -14 version contains what should be the last set of changes resulting from IESG review. Is this version ready for approval? Thanks, Spencer Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 7:50 AM > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org > Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14.txt > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : Diffserv-Interconnection classes and practice > Authors : Ruediger Geib > David L. Black > Filename : draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14.txt > Pages : 22 > Date : 2016-12-15 > > Abstract: > This document defines a limited common set of Diffserv Per Hop > Behaviours (PHBs) and codepoints (DSCPs) to be applied at > (inter)connections of two separately administered and operated > networks, and explains how this approach can simplify network > configuration and operation. Many network providers operate Multi > Protocol Label Switching (MPLS) using Treatment Aggregates for > traffic marked with different Diffserv Per Hop Behaviors, and use > MPLS for interconnection with other networks. This document offers a > simple interconnection approach that may simplify operation of > Diffserv for network interconnection among providers that use MPLS > and apply the Short-Pipe tunnel mode. While motivated by the > requirements of MPLS network operators that use Short-Pipe tunnels, > this document is applicable to other networks, both MPLS and non- > MPLS. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt --94eb2c06b164f97e620543bbed33 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Gorry The Shepherd,

On Dec 16, 2016 00:17, "Black, David&= quot; <David.Black@dell.com&= gt; wrote:
The -14 version= contains what should be the last set of changes resulting
from IESG review.

Is this version ready for approval?

Thanks,

Spencer

<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
Thanks, --David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 7:50 AM
> To:
i-d-announce@ietf.org=
> Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14.txt >
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir= ectories.
> This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group of the I= ETF.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0: Diffserv-Interconnection classes and practice
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0: Ruediger Geib
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0David L. Black
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-= ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14.txt
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0: 22
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 : 2016-12-15
>
> Abstract:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document defines a limited common set of Diffserv Pe= r Hop
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Behaviours (PHBs) and codepoints (DSCPs) to be applied at=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (inter)connections of two separately administered and ope= rated
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 networks, and explains how this approach can simplify net= work
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 configuration and operation.=C2=A0 Many network providers= operate Multi
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Protocol Label Switching (MPLS) using Treatment Aggregate= s for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 traffic marked with different Diffserv Per Hop Behaviors,= and use
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MPLS for interconnection with other networks.=C2=A0 This = document offers a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 simple interconnection approach that may simplify operati= on of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Diffserv for network interconnection among providers that= use MPLS
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and apply the Short-Pipe tunnel mode.=C2=A0 While motivat= ed by the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 requirements of MPLS network operators that use Short-Pip= e tunnels,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this document is applicable to other networks, both MPLS = and non-
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MPLS.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.or= g/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon/
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/r= fcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tsvwg-diffserv-intercon-14
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
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Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-tsvwg-tunnel-congestion-feedback@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC Conclusion: draft-ietf-tsvwg-tunnel-congestion-feedback-03 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 23:32:30 -0000 SmFrZSwNCg0KVGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgcmV2aWV3LCBhbmQgSSBoYXZlIHR3byBjb21tZW50cyB0 byBhZGQgLSB0aGV5J3JlIGlubGluZQ0KYW5kIHJlcHJvZHVjZWQgaGVyZSB0byBtYWtlIHRoZW0g ZWFzeSB0byBmaW5kOg0KDQo+ID4xLiAiRmFrZWQiIEVDVCwgZGVzY3JpYmVkIGluIHNlY3Rpb24g NCwgc2VlbXMgbGlrZSBpdCBjb25mbGljdHMgd2l0aCBndWlkYW5jZSBmcm9tDQo+ID5SRkMgNjA0 MCwgYW5kIHByb2JhYmx5IHNob3VsZCBoYXZlIGEgbW9yZSBpbi1kZXB0aCBleHBsYW5hdGlvbiBk aXJlY3RseQ0KPiA+YWRkcmVzc2luZyB0aGF0IHBvaW50IGFuZCBqdXN0aWZ5aW5nIHRoZSByZWFz b25zLg0KPiA+DQo+ID5yZWxldmFudCBxdW90ZXMgZnJvbSBzZWN0aW9uIDcgb2YgUkZDIDYwNDA6 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bGFja0BkZWxsLmNvbSAgPD09PSBORVcgPT09DQo+ID4gICAgPiAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KPiA+DQo+ID4NCg0K From nobody Fri Dec 16 15:42:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF161294BE for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 15:42:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); domainkeys=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.from=David.Black@dell.com header.d=dell.com; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dell.com 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mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public Archived-At: Cc: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC Conclusion: draft-ietf-tsvwg-tunnel-congestion-feedback-03 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 23:42:49 -0000 --_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362F794BFEMX307CL04corpem_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VmluY2VudCAtIHRoYW5rIHlvdSB2ZXJ5IG11Y2ggZm9yIHRoaXMgcmV2aWV3Lg0KDQpYaW5wZW5n IC0gV2hpbGUgSSBoYXZlbuKAmXQgc2VlbiBCb2LigJlzIHJldmlldyAoaGludCB0byBCb2IpLCB3 ZSBkbyBub3cgaGF2ZSB0d28gbW9yZSBzb2xpZCByZXZpZXdzIG9mIHRoZSBkcmFmdC4gIFBsZWFz ZSBnbyBhaGVhZCBhbmQgcHJlcGFyZSBhIHJldmlzZWQgdmVyc2lvbiBvZiB0aGUgZHJhZnQgdGhh dCBhZGRyZXNzZXMgdGhlIGNvbmNlcm5zIHJhaXNlZCBhbmQgbWFrZXMgdGhlIGVkaXRvcmlhbCBj 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([68.232.153.202]) by esa3.dell-outbound.iphmx.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 16 Dec 2016 18:11:19 -0600 From: "Black, David" Received: from mailuogwdur.emc.com ([128.221.224.79]) by esa2.dell-outbound2.iphmx.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Dec 2016 06:11:18 +0600 Received: from maildlpprd53.lss.emc.com (maildlpprd53.lss.emc.com [10.106.48.157]) by mailuogwprd54.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id uBH0BHJU014656 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 19:11:18 -0500 X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd54.lss.emc.com uBH0BHJU014656 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emc.com; s=jan2013; t=1481933478; bh=6KQ0A2B1Czox8ODbl4LgkCBSuL4=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=WbWRMtk1iOA93O9DXueUcxjApJlP0DZ9iEammbvJoeci0+gVVoSlLbfdGBwyzME5U Dk5WmdidMpwyJKsc53FQFuKDUfFOx8pl0vPX3qmtrxdgS9Do78gWEvONCcNWOkBkr0 O/T4+q1MWmJNM4sOZ78ph6LjzpUtz2gpKamTlgOI= X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd54.lss.emc.com uBH0BHJU014656 Received: from mailusrhubprd04.lss.emc.com (mailusrhubprd04.lss.emc.com [10.253.24.22]) by maildlpprd53.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor) for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 19:10:49 -0500 Received: from MXHUB315.corp.emc.com (MXHUB315.corp.emc.com [10.146.3.93]) by mailusrhubprd04.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id uBH0AxXS021237 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 19:10:59 -0500 Received: from MX307CL04.corp.emc.com ([fe80::849f:5da2:11b:4385]) by MXHUB315.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.93]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 19:10:59 -0500 To: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: LE PHB draft - relationship to RFCs 3662 and 4594 Thread-Index: AdJX+gqDdmyKsWWbQS+QWgW6LxcZdg== Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:10:58 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.252.48.31] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd04.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] LE PHB draft - relationship to RFCs 3662 and 4594 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:11:21 -0000 Roland, First of all, many thanks for working on this draft. I will find the time = to do a more detailed review of its contents, but wanted to quickly cover some more process oriented matters regarding RFC updating. The header of draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb-00 currently says: Updates: 3662,4594 (if approved) That usually requires some supporting text to explain the updates (e.g., th= ere are ADs who will look for that text): 1) My understanding of the discussion has been that this draft should obsol= ete RFC 3662, with this draft replacing it as the definition of the Lower Effor= t PHB. 2) Please add a section indicating exactly what is being changed in RFC 459= 4. Thanks, --David -------------------------------------------------------- David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer Dell EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA=A0 01748 +1 (508) 293-7953=A0=A0=A0 Cell: +1 (978) 394-7754 David.Black@dell.com <=3D=3D=3D NEW =3D=3D=3D -------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Dec 16 16:27:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E636F12945C for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:27:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.721 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.721 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); domainkeys=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.from=David.Black@dell.com header.d=dell.com; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dell.com header.b=F8AmbIrL; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=emc.com header.b=H+R8xKqk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4d_PurMmIchn for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:27:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from esa8.dell-outbound.iphmx.com (esa8.dell-outbound.iphmx.com [68.232.149.218]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8E411293F2 for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:27:33 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: s=smtpout; d=dell.com; c=simple; q=dns; h=Received:From:Received:Received:X-DKIM:DKIM-Signature: X-DKIM:Received:Received:Received:To:Subject:Thread-Topic: Thread-Index:Date:Message-ID:Accept-Language: Content-Language:X-MS-Has-Attach:X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding: MIME-Version:X-Sentrion-Hostname:X-RSA-Classifications; b=ApyUAwQ5+cL/sVtPZWNwuRlldlzIud4gmOpGisqT5r4ERVI8hZnJqwkp 1s8vtM1ShBO7qazln7xVTnC+OCsxTE4zO+6zGUW0tEsLMs7F+/hWzeUUi ZYLJaCXu+uL/7LkoDdjKUZIDuSJKtIS0bsO3pNO5BPFXGvvy8c1cWy2ep s=; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dell.com; i=@dell.com; q=dns/txt; s=smtpout; t=1481934453; x=1513470453; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=iR71sOrwuLYBVBuxUDoTLW6Vop3crS4PRzNxCocuBA8=; b=F8AmbIrLcFQxlP4IHP3GimsMP3X/koo8XQNM66ta8C3qXWOu+iF+yPe3 jvUPclrKrNnc/9fZJyZRYCaz3Lz5vXaJ0Fag/B/VCYLJK/foAlz4pN8j9 4SUU/n/93Fv+5SOLv5xSceB5Vo7Bg3mQWU+f09BJ093NK3DEcFDu+1N61 0=; Received: from esa4.dell-outbound2.iphmx.com ([68.232.154.98]) by esa8.dell-outbound.iphmx.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 16 Dec 2016 18:27:33 -0600 From: "Black, David" Received: from mailuogwdur.emc.com ([128.221.224.79]) by esa4.dell-outbound2.iphmx.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Dec 2016 06:27:33 +0600 Received: from maildlpprd56.lss.emc.com (maildlpprd56.lss.emc.com [10.106.48.160]) by mailuogwprd51.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id uBH0RWcD007378 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 19:27:32 -0500 X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd51.lss.emc.com uBH0RWcD007378 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emc.com; s=jan2013; t=1481934452; bh=++m+qU2kBKCQq1XaSaNtC0ocOm4=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=H+R8xKqkgh/fZjMFWuOxoC+T4wfyCG2/MKOrQn5YToaW7IVF5pWa+hGD5HyOiJsMj PA6lTBWTcNktr6nQnOHULCnOZE8LLdYc83kJNhTuaVgrg1Vofcjt9gz3Q0Hmf2q498 f/QcMEv9hnB0ST5bXgTRaMlC7JOxDIOX6dwZT0lE= X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd51.lss.emc.com uBH0RWcD007378 Received: from mailusrhubprd51.lss.emc.com (mailusrhubprd51.lss.emc.com [10.106.48.24]) by maildlpprd56.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor) for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 19:27:20 -0500 Received: from MXHUB304.corp.emc.com (MXHUB304.corp.emc.com [10.146.3.30]) by mailusrhubprd51.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id uBH0ROfA023433 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 19:27:24 -0500 Received: from MX307CL04.corp.emc.com ([fe80::849f:5da2:11b:4385]) by MXHUB304.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.30]) with mapi id 14.03.0266.001; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 19:27:23 -0500 To: tsvwg WG Thread-Topic: WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01 - RFC 4594 update? Thread-Index: AdJX/FXX3/b2We23RUq7bZkCWRuYVA== Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:27:23 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.252.48.31] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd51.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01 - RFC 4594 update? X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:27:36 -0000 As part of a private discussion with the authors of this draft about a year= ago, the WG chairs and draft authors determined that an update to RFC 4594 would remove confusion that was encountered about whether the High-Throughput Data Service Class (default PHBs: AF1x) would be appropriate to carry as less-than-best-effort traffic (it's not).=20 The specific proposed update to Section 4.8 of RFC 4594 is: OLD It can be assumed that this class will consume any available bandwidth and that packets traversing congested links may experience higher queuing delays or packet loss. NEW As this class is expected to consist of TCP traffic and other traffic with a TCP-like response to available bandwidth and network bottlenecks, it can be assumed that this class will consume any available bandwidth and that packets traversing congested links may experience higher queuing delays or packet loss. We need to figure out where and how to make that change, which I believe to be editorial. The LE PHB draft is the wrong place, because this change is not to RFC 4594's Low-Priority Data service class text (Section 4.10). = This 802.11 Diffserv draft could be used to make that change, or I could simply file it with the RFC Editor as an Errata against RFC 4594. My current inclination is to file it as an errata, but I welcome comments, suggestions and insights on what to do. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gorry Fairhurst > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 12:27 PM > To: tsvwg WG > Subject: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01 as PS, closes 3= 1 Dec > 2016 >=20 >=20 > This email announces a TSVWG Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on: >=20 > DiffServ to IEEE 802.11 Mapping > draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01 >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11/ >=20 > This WGLC will last for about 3 weeks weeks (due to the holiday season)= . >=20 > Comments should be sent to the tsvwg@ietf.org list, although purely > editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: the > WG chairs at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org if you would like the chairs to > track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC process. >=20 > No IPR disclosures have been submitted directly on > draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01 >=20 > Thanks, > Gorry, David and Wes > (TSVWG Co-Chairs) >=20 From nobody Mon Dec 19 04:22:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F06A1299AA for ; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 04:22:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-3.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7MalGD1CPwaG for ; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 04:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.fh-muenster.de (mail.fh-muenster.de [212.201.120.190]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70368129993 for ; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 04:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from Idefix3.local (unknown [212.201.121.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: fw153970) by mail.fh-muenster.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 457EE283EAD for ; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 13:22:15 +0100 (CET) References: From: Felix Weinrank To: tsvwg@ietf.org Organization: =?UTF-8?Q?Fachhochschule_M=c3=bcnster?= Message-ID: <5d0e5917-304a-788a-d0bd-adf39a4ab672@fh-muenster.de> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 13:22:14 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:50.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/50.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata as PS, closes 22 Dec 2016 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 12:22:23 -0000 Hi all, I used the draft to implement the I-DATA extension in the INET Framework for the OMNeT++ simulation environment. This includes both; the User Message Interleaving and the Stream Schedulers. In addition to the usage within the simulation environment, we successfully tested our implementation with the FreeBSD kernel implementation. Best regards Felix Am 08.12.16 um 08:36 schrieb gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk: > This mail announces a TSVWG Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on: > > Stream Schedulers and User Message Interleaving for SCTP > draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata > > This WGLC will last for 2 weeks weeks. > > Comments should be sent to the tsvwg@ietf.org list, although purely > editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: the > WG chairs at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org if you would like the chairs to > track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC process. > > No IPR disclosures have been submitted directly on > draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata. > > Thanks, > Gorry > (TSVWG Co-Chair) > > From nobody Mon Dec 19 08:17:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C638A129BB9 for ; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 08:17:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-3.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lcoQp2PXg85r for ; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 08:17:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.mera.ru (mail.mera.ru [195.98.57.161]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7818F129BBD for ; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 08:16:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbx03.merann.ru ([192.168.50.73]) by mail.mera.ru with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1cJ0bj-0003i0-05; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 19:16:11 +0300 Received: from e16srv03.merann.ru (192.168.50.33) by mbx03.merann.ru (192.168.50.73) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.319.2; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 19:16:46 +0300 Received: from e16srv01.merann.ru (192.168.50.31) by e16srv03.merann.ru (192.168.50.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.225.42; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 19:16:45 +0300 Received: from e16srv01.merann.ru ([fe80::c8d9:7ce2:f257:77b1]) by e16srv01.merann.ru ([fe80::c8d9:7ce2:f257:77b1%13]) with mapi id 15.01.0225.041; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 19:16:45 +0300 From: "Proshin, Maksim" To: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata as PS, closes 22 Dec 2016 Thread-Index: AQHSWgChCkg2HCaxb0Ww0RyyFOJkOaEPTU0B Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 16:16:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.176.1.89] x-inside-org: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_ff0aa6080427478cbd3cb3911e20185fmeraru_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de" Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata as PS, closes 22 Dec 2016 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 16:17:06 -0000 --_000_ff0aa6080427478cbd3cb3911e20185fmeraru_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Thanks for the document! Please find below some comments. Only major commen= ts are included while editorial/minor comments have been sent directly to M= ichael. 1. Section 1.1: "DATA chunks are not permitted when I-DATA support has been negotiated." What exactly does it mean for implementation (both sending and receiving si= des)? I think to avoid any problems with the sending side it should be "MUS= T NOT" in the sentence. For the receiving side I suppose it means stop proc= essing of the packet and silently discard all further chunks in the packet,= right? I think this should be clearly stated. It could also be good to cle= arly state that after association restart which was with DATA previously bu= t became with I-DATA after the restart, SCTP still may receive packets with= DATA and they should be silently discarded due to VTag mismatch following = the rules of Section 8.5. from RFC4960 (I suppose this is important to avoi= d any "protocol violation" reaction). 2. Section 2.1: The only differences between the I-DATA chunk in Figure 3 and the DATA chunk defined in [RFC4960] and [RFC7053] is the addition of= the new Message Identifier (MID) and Fragment Sequence Number (FSN) and the removal of the Stream Sequence Number (SSN). The B bit now has a different (extended) purpose and also specifies if PPID= or FSN is used. I think it should be stated. 3. I suppose the draft assumes that SCTP still MAY (i.e. not SHOULD/MUST) s= upport fragmentation even with I-DATA and MUST (i.e. not MAY/SHOULD) suppor= t re-assembling. If so, I suggest to clearly state it. 4. Is RFC6096 impacted by new chunks? 5. Section 2.3.1: Support for the I-FORWARD-TSN chunk is negotiated during = the SCTP association setup via the Supported Extensions Parameter as defined in [RFC5061]. Only if both end points support the I-DATA chunk and the I-FORWARD-TSN chunk, the partial reliability extension can be used in combination with user message interleaving. Not sure how implementation should behave if either of these chunks is unsu= pported. I think it should be clearly stated. Namely if I-DATA is supported but not I-FORWARD-TSN, I believe the partial = reliability functionality should be completely off, i.e. not fallback to FO= RWARD-TSN. If I-DATA is not supported but I-FORWARD-TSN is supported (strange implemen= tation but still according to the draft as it does not prohibit the opposit= e), it seems both functionalities message interleaving and partial reliabil= ity should be off, i.e. there is no way to fallback to FORWARD-TSN, right? Should the draft state something like "If I-DATA chunk is not used, I-FORWA= RD-TSN chunk MUST NOT be used."? 6. Section 4.1: MID is 32 bits while SSN is 16 bits so why a new SCTP Receive Information S= tructure cannot be introduced instead of using the existing one? If the new SCTP Receive Information Structure is introduced then a new mess= age receive function should also be introduced (instead of recv_msg() ). Is= that the main problem? Of course, it would also be a problem if the interleaving functionality req= uires enabling only on the sender side (see the next comment). 7. Section 4.3.1: User message interleaving is disabled per default. I'm not sure about it. First of all I think it should be clearly stated wha= t does it mean for the sender and for the receiver. If the intention was that I-DATA is included to INIT and INIT ACK only when= the user enabled this functionality then I think this is not a good way be= cause then it impacts not only the sender but also the receiver. In other words, if the feature is disabled by default on both sides while S= CTP on both sides support it then it is not enough to just enable it on one= side, it requires enabling it on the other side. 7. Section 4.3.1: Why don't specify exactly value 1 for the enabled featur= e? Otherwise, in the future it will be difficult to use another value of th= is parameter for a different purpose as it will be non-backward compatible = (old application and new SCTP may work improperly). 8. Section 5 does not cover I-FORWARD-TSN. 9. Section 6: In case of DTLS over SCTP support of the message interleaving= functionality may increase the risk of receiving messages with new epoch a= fter ChangeCipherSpec message and before Finished message. BR, Maksim ________________________________ Am 08.12.2016 um 08:36 schrieb gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk: This mail announces a TSVWG Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on: Stream Schedulers and User Message Interleaving forSCTP draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata This WGLC will last for 2 weeks weeks. Comments should be sent to the tsvwg@ietf.org list, = although purely editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: the WG chairs at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org if you wo= uld like the chairs to track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC process. No IPR disclosures have been submitted directly on draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata. Thanks, Gorry (TSVWG Co-Chair) --_000_ff0aa6080427478cbd3cb3911e20185fmeraru_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,


Thanks for the document! Please find below some comments.= Only major comments are included while editorial/minor comments have been = sent directly to Michael.


1. Section 1.1:"DAT= A chunks are not

"= ;

What exact= ly does it mean for implementation (both sending and receiving sides)? I th= ink to avoid any problems with the sending side it should be "MUST NOT= " in the sentence. For the receiving side I suppose it means stop processing of the packet and silently discard all = further chunks in the packet, right? I think this should be clearly stated.= It could also be good to clearly state that after association restart whic= h was with DATA previously but became with I-DATA after the restart, SCTP still may receive packets with DATA an= d they should be silently discarded due to VTag mismatch following the rule= s of Section 8.5. from RFC4960 (I suppose this is important to avoid any &q= uot;protocol violation" reaction). 


2. Section= 2.1: 

The only differenc= es between the I-DATA chunk in Figure 3 and the

   DATA chu=
nk defined in [RFC496=
0] and [RFC7053] is the addition of the
   new Mess=
age Identifier (MID) and Fragment Sequence Number (FSN) and
   the remo=
val of the Stream Sequence Number (SSN).
The B bit now has a different (extended) purpose and also specif=
ies if PPID or FSN is used. I think it should be stated.

 

3. I suppose the draft assumes that SCTP still MAY (i.e. not SHO=
ULD/MUST) support fragmentation even with I-DATA and MUST (i.e. not MAY/SHO=
ULD) support re-assembling. If so, I suggest to clearly state it.

4. Is RFC6096 impacted by new chunks?

5. Section 2.3.1: Support for the I-FORWA=
RD-TSN chunk is negotiated during the SCTP
   associat=
ion setup via the Supported Extensions Parameter as defined
   in [RFC5061].  Only if both end points support the I-DAT=
A chunk and
   the I-FO=
RWARD-TSN chunk, the partial reliability extension can be
   used in =
combination with user message interleaving.
Not sure how implementation should behave if either of these chu=
nks is unsupported. I think it should be clearly stated.
Namely if I-DATA is supported but not I-FORWARD-TSN, I believe t=
he partial reliability functionality should be completely off, i.e. not fal=
lback to FORWARD-TSN. 
If I-DATA is not supported but I-FORWARD-TSN is supported (stran=
ge implementation but still according to the draft as it does not prohibit =
the opposite), it seems both functionalities message interleaving and parti=
al reliability should be off, i.e. there is no way to fallback to FORWARD-T=
SN, right?  
Should the draft state something like "If I-DATA chunk is n=
ot used, I-FORWARD-TSN chunk MUST NOT be used."?
6. Section 4.1:

MID is 32 bits while SSN is 16 bits so why a new SCTP Receive Information Struct= ure cannot be introduced instead of using the existing one?

(instead of recv_msg() ). I=
s that the main problem?
Of=
 course, it would also be a problem if the interleaving functionality requi=
res enabling only on the sender side (see the next comment). 

7. Section 4.3.1:
   User message interleaving is disabled per default.
I'm not sure about it. First of all I think it should be clearly=
 stated what does it mean for the sender and for the receiver.
If the intention was that I-DATA is included to INIT and INIT AC=
K only when the user enabled this functionality then I think this is not a =
good way because then it impacts not only the sender but also the receiver.=
 
In other words, if the feature is disabled by de=
fault on both sides while SCTP on both sides support it then it is not enou=
gh to just enable it on one side, it requires enabling it on the other side=
.  

7. Section 4.3.1:  Why don't specify exactly value 1 for th=
e enabled feature? Otherwise, in the future it will be difficult to use ano=
ther value of this parameter for a different purpose as it will be non-back=
ward compatible (old application and new SCTP may work improperly).<=
/pre>

8. Section 5 does not cover I-FORWARD-TSN.

&= nbsp;

9. Se= ction 6: In case of DTLS over SCTP support of the message interleaving func= tionality may increase the risk of receiving messages with new epoch a= fter ChangeCipherSpec message and before Finished message.



BR, Maksim


Am 08.12.2016 um 08:36 schrieb gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk:


This mail announces a TSVWG Working Gro= up Last Call (WGLC) on:

            Str= eam Schedulers and User Message Interleaving forSCTP
            draft
-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-nda= ta
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-= sctp-ndata

This WGLC will last for 2 weeks weeks.<= br>
Comments should be sent to the tsvwg= @ietf.org list, although purely
editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: the
WG chairs at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org  if you would like the chairs= to
track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC process.

No IPR disclosures have been submitted directly on
draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndat= a.

Thanks,
Gorry
(TSVWG Co-Chair)
--_000_ff0aa6080427478cbd3cb3911e20185fmeraru_-- From nobody Mon Dec 19 10:10:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB22B12958B for ; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 10:09:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-3.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OgXVKqNJvxjV for ; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 10:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from drew.franken.de (drew.ipv6.franken.de [IPv6:2001:638:a02:a001:20e:cff:fe4a:feaa]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53264129583 for ; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 10:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (p508F027E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.143.2.126]) (Authenticated sender: macmic) by mail-n.franken.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5D4C2721E280D; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 19:09:54 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Michael Tuexen In-Reply-To: <5d0e5917-304a-788a-d0bd-adf39a4ab672@fh-muenster.de> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 19:09:52 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <155C353F-9F5B-4F60-99F4-18EFE9059050@lurchi.franken.de> References: <5d0e5917-304a-788a-d0bd-adf39a4ab672@fh-muenster.de> To: Felix Weinrank X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata as PS, closes 22 Dec 2016 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 18:09:59 -0000 > On 19 Dec 2016, at 13:22, Felix Weinrank = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > I used the draft to implement the I-DATA extension in the INET = Framework for the OMNeT++ simulation environment. > This includes both; the User Message Interleaving and the Stream = Schedulers. > In addition to the usage within the simulation environment, we = successfully tested our implementation with the FreeBSD kernel = implementation. Any comments? Best regards Michael >=20 > Best regards > Felix >=20 >=20 > Am 08.12.16 um 08:36 schrieb gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk: >> This mail announces a TSVWG Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on: >>=20 >> Stream Schedulers and User Message Interleaving for SCTP >> draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata >>=20 >> This WGLC will last for 2 weeks weeks. >>=20 >> Comments should be sent to the tsvwg@ietf.org list, although purely >> editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: = the >> WG chairs at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org if you would like the chairs to >> track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC process. >>=20 >> No IPR disclosures have been submitted directly on >> draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata. >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Gorry >> (TSVWG Co-Chair) >>=20 >>=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Dec 20 07:05:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E86B1299F0; Tue, 20 Dec 2016 07:05:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BglsZg_p6H6v; Tue, 20 Dec 2016 07:05:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E76B71299F2; Tue, 20 Dec 2016 07:05:46 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-854f998000005d1c-d5-585948c946c5 Received: from ESESSHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.39]) by (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 25.53.23836.9C849585; Tue, 20 Dec 2016 16:05:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.41) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.319.2; Tue, 20 Dec 2016 16:05:44 +0100 To: , References: From: Magnus Westerlund Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 16:05:44 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7uu5Jj8gIg10TRC1et81mtGjou8tq cezNXTYHZo+ezy+YPJYs+ckUwBTFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlbFrwzyWggP6FZ8f/GBsYJyp2sXI ySEhYCLR2veXuYuRi0NIYB2jRNe+c+wgCSGB5YwS+2/qgNjCAqESnXcPM4LYIgI6Ep1bvzFB 1LhJfFvxH6iZg4NZQFriZLsiSJhNwELi5o9GNhCbV8Be4uDTj4wgJSwCqhIXt9qBhEUFYiSW HJ/HAlEiKHFy5hMwm1PAXWL2681MEBPtJR5sLQMJMwvISzRvnc0MsVRboqGpg3UCo8AsJN2z EDpmIelYwMi8ilG0OLW4ODfdyEgvtSgzubg4P08vL7VkEyMwMA9u+W21g/Hgc8dDjAIcjEo8 vAXukRFCrIllxZW5hxglOJiVRHi/2wOFeFMSK6tSi/Lji0pzUosPMUpzsCiJ85qtvB8uJJCe WJKanZpakFoEk2Xi4JRqYCwuWLpb8Mci2a5z85r/LjrbsTsmkPuusPyUgnMyJz+uWSV6s9XR Nt+KO9YiRlTO8YAGW6VBdIbKjV1MJY67rk09yLSC97Xmxt9tptJNyzKMJ36UTrab8l0vbd3N +5qOrYez63az9cwxeHT5lc3qkFgVuY+GYgvPqbUtmDV7UmzO/GsJjCK2bUosxRmJhlrMRcWJ AH9knSBIAgAA Archived-At: Cc: tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata as PS, closes 22 Dec 2016 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 15:05:53 -0000 Hi, I have reviewed -08 in this WG last call and have the following comments. 1. Section 2.1: "Therefore a sender MUST NOT have more than 2**31 - 1 fragments of a single user message in flight." This document uses in "in flight" at three places. I fail to find a definition of this in this document nor in RFC 4960, that also use it in a couple of places. I think the right way forward here is probably to include this issue as one that should be clear in the updated version of RFC 4960. I do consider this a clarity issue if not addressed. Even if I wonder if it is at all possible to violate it, as the TSN is not larger field than the FSN. 2. Section 2.2.2: The sender MUST NOT be fragmenting more than one user message in any given stream at any time. At any time, a sender MAY fragment multiple user messages, each of them on different streams. If I have read this document correctly, the above implies something that maybe should be made more clear. If one has unordered messages, one could in fact have a transmission schedule for a single stream that looks like this (MID/FSN): 0/0 1/0 0/1 2/0 0/3 In other words on the same stream have one large fragmented messages, and multiple non-fragemented messessages overtaking the large fragmented one? I wonder if this should be clarified as being allowed. 3. Section 2.2.3: Upon reception of an SCTP packet containing an I-DATA chunk if the message needs to be reassembled, then the receiver MUST use the FSN for reassembly of the message and not the TSN. This above assumes that one has identified first the stream based on SID, and then using the MID of the I-DATA to determine the message the chunk actually contains. It might be a point to clarify these assumptions going into the above sentence. 4. Section 3: There appear to be an assumption here that isn't made clear. Namely that the sender side implementation and the application using the SCTP implementation instance is the one that selects which stream scheduler to use. There is no negotiation, not even protocol level indication to the receiver for what is being used. That means that for applications that has dependency on what stream scheduling behaviors the far sender has, needs to communicate that out-of-band or on top of the established association between the instances. To be clear I don't have a pressing case where this would be a problem, but I think it should be made explicit these assumptions. 5. Section 3.2: When not using user message interleaving, this scheduler provides a fair scheduling based on the number of user messages by cycling around non-empty stream queues. When using user message interleaving, this scheduler provides a fair scheduling based on the number of I-DATA chunks by cycling around non-empty stream queues. I think this description is insufficient to produce a behaviour that is consistent between implementors. I find it lacking in explanation on a couple of different aspects. A. Ordering of the stream specific queues. When a message is added to a stream that had nothing queued, is that stream handled in stream ID order, or is the stream added as the last in the list/ cyclic queue of the current streams having data to send? B. The behaviour when adding chunks to a packet. For non interleaved, I assume this one will add a DATA chunk from the next stream, assuming it will fit within in MTU boundaries, else send. For I-DATA should one fill up the packet to the MTU boundary and then send the packet, independently how many bytes of message data that fits? 6. Section 3.3: This is a round-robin scheduler but bundles only DATA or I-DATA chunks referring to the same stream in a packet. This minimizes head-of-line blocking when a packet is lost because only a single stream is affected. In this case, for non-interleaved, am I allowed to fit the next message into the SCTP packet, if it can fit in the remaining size before MTU, or does this scheduler result in under utilized packets? For fragmented, I will assume that I am allowed to fill one packet worth of chunks from this stream, independent of how many messages that implies? 7. Section 3.5: This scheduler considers the lengths of the messages of each stream and schedules them in a certain way to maintain an equal bandwidth for all streams. Is the above taking only the scheduled for transmission into account, or is also past transmissions relevant in the scheduling decision between streams? 8. Section 4.3.1: Some implementations might therefore put some restrictions on setting combinations of these values. This doesn't appear to be sound API definitions. Wouldn't it be clearer to actually either require to option to be set prior, or alternatively, setting this, causing the other to also be set to avoid issues? 9. Section 6: This document does not add any additional security considerations in addition to the ones given in [RFC4960] and [RFC6458]. It should be noted that the application has to consent that it is willing to do the more complex reassembly support required for user message interleaving. I think this is an insufficient security consideration section. It hints at a receiver resource exhaustion attack. I think that should be made clear what this attacks entail, and what mitigations that can be considered. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Dec 20 07:38:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0746129A98; Tue, 20 Dec 2016 07:38:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-3.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xR8Iq7a51aAP; Tue, 20 Dec 2016 07:38:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.mera.ru (mail.mera.ru [195.98.57.161]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F797129A4C; Tue, 20 Dec 2016 07:38:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbx03.merann.ru ([192.168.50.73]) by mail.mera.ru with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1cJMTn-000BwU-53; Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:37:27 +0300 Received: from e16srv02.merann.ru (192.168.50.32) by mbx03.merann.ru (192.168.50.73) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.319.2; Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:38:03 +0300 Received: from e16srv01.merann.ru (192.168.50.31) by e16srv02.merann.ru (192.168.50.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.225.42; Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:38:02 +0300 Received: from e16srv01.merann.ru ([fe80::c8d9:7ce2:f257:77b1]) by e16srv01.merann.ru ([fe80::c8d9:7ce2:f257:77b1%13]) with mapi id 15.01.0225.041; Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:38:02 +0300 From: "Proshin, Maksim" To: "magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com" Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata as PS, closes 22 Dec 2016 Thread-Index: AQHSWtZbCkg2HCaxb0Ww0RyyFOJkOaEQ9yOS Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 15:38:02 +0000 Message-ID: <8c1c7c5ccc0649798aa999849c6cbb7d@mera.ru> References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.176.1.89] x-inside-org: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8c1c7c5ccc0649798aa999849c6cbb7dmeraru_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata as PS, closes 22 Dec 2016 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 15:38:26 -0000 --_000_8c1c7c5ccc0649798aa999849c6cbb7dmeraru_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Magnus, Just a clarification to the first comment: "in flight" term is already covered in draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-01 BR, Maxim ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Magnus Westerlund > Date: Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata as PS, closes 22 = Dec 2016 To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, tsvwg@ietf.org Cc: tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org Hi, I have reviewed -08 in this WG last call and have the following comments. 1. Section 2.1: "Therefore a sender MUST NOT have more than 2**31 - 1 fragments of a single user message in flight." This document uses in "in flight" at three places. I fail to find a definit= ion of this in this document nor in RFC 4960, that also use it in a couple = of places. I think the right way forward here is probably to include this i= ssue as one that should be clear in the updated version of RFC 4960. I do c= onsider this a clarity issue if not addressed. Even if I wonder if it is at= all possible to violate it, as the TSN is not larger field than the FSN. 2. Section 2.2.2: The sender MUST NOT be fragmenting more than one user message in any given stream at any time. At any time, a sender MAY fragment multiple user messages, each of them on different streams. If I have read this document correctly, the above implies something that ma= ybe should be made more clear. If one has unordered messages, one could in = fact have a transmission schedule for a single stream that looks like this = (MID/FSN): 0/0 1/0 0/1 2/0 0/3 In other words on the same stream have one large fragmented messages, and m= ultiple non-fragemented messessages overtaking the large fragmented one? I wonder if this should be clarified as being allowed. 3. Section 2.2.3: Upon reception of an SCTP packet containing an I-DATA chunk if the message needs to be reassembled, then the receiver MUST use the FSN for reassembly of the message and not the TSN. This above assumes that one has identified first the stream based on SID, a= nd then using the MID of the I-DATA to determine the message the chunk actu= ally contains. It might be a point to clarify these assumptions going into = the above sentence. 4. Section 3: There appear to be an assumption here that isn't made clear. Namely that th= e sender side implementation and the application using the SCTP implementat= ion instance is the one that selects which stream scheduler to use. There i= s no negotiation, not even protocol level indication to the receiver for wh= at is being used. That means that for applications that has dependency on w= hat stream scheduling behaviors the far sender has, needs to communicate th= at out-of-band or on top of the established association between the instanc= es. To be clear I don't have a pressing case where this would be a problem, but= I think it should be made explicit these assumptions. 5. Section 3.2: When not using user message interleaving, this scheduler provides a fair scheduling based on the number of user messages by cycling around non-empty stream queues. When using user message interleaving, this scheduler provides a fair scheduling based on the number of I-DATA chunks by cycling around non-empty stream queues. I think this description is insufficient to produce a behaviour that is con= sistent between implementors. I find it lacking in explanation on a couple = of different aspects. A. Ordering of the stream specific queues. When a message is added to a str= eam that had nothing queued, is that stream handled in stream ID order, or = is the stream added as the last in the list/ cyclic queue of the current st= reams having data to send? B. The behaviour when adding chunks to a packet. For non interleaved, I ass= ume this one will add a DATA chunk from the next stream, assuming it will f= it within in MTU boundaries, else send. For I-DATA should one fill up the p= acket to the MTU boundary and then send the packet, independently how many = bytes of message data that fits? 6. Section 3.3: This is a round-robin scheduler but bundles only DATA or I-DATA chunks referring to the same stream in a packet. This minimizes head-of-line blocking when a packet is lost because only a single stream is affected. In this case, for non-interleaved, am I allowed to fit the next message int= o the SCTP packet, if it can fit in the remaining size before MTU, or does = this scheduler result in under utilized packets? For fragmented, I will assume that I am allowed to fill one packet worth of= chunks from this stream, independent of how many messages that implies? 7. Section 3.5: This scheduler considers the lengths of the messages of each stream and schedules them in a certain way to maintain an equal bandwidth for all streams. Is the above taking only the scheduled for transmission into account, or is= also past transmissions relevant in the scheduling decision between stream= s? 8. Section 4.3.1: Some implementations might therefore put some restrictions on setting combinations of these values. This doesn't appear to be sound API definitions. Wouldn't it be clearer to = actually either require to option to be set prior, or alternatively, settin= g this, causing the other to also be set to avoid issues? 9. Section 6: This document does not add any additional security considerations in addition to the ones given in [RFC4960] and [RFC6458]. It should be noted that the application has to consent that it is willing to do the more complex reassembly support required for user message interleaving. I think this is an insufficient security consideration section. It hints at= a receiver resource exhaustion attack. I think that should be made clear w= hat this attacks entail, and what mitigations that can be considered. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --_000_8c1c7c5ccc0649798aa999849c6cbb7dmeraru_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Magnus,


Just a clarification to the first comment: 

"in flight" term is already covered in draft-ietf-ts= vwg-rfc4960-errata-01


BR, Maxim

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@er= icsson.com>
Date: Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata as PS, closes 22 = Dec 2016
To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, tsvwg@ietf.org<= /a>
Cc:
tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org


Hi,

I have reviewed -08 in this WG last call and have the following comments.
1. Section 2.1: "Therefore a sender MUST NOT have more than
      2**31 - 1 fragments of a single user message in flight= ."

This document uses in "in flight" at three places. I fail to find= a definition of this in this document nor in RFC 4960, that also use it in= a couple of places. I think the right way forward here is probably to incl= ude this issue as one that should be clear in the updated version of RFC 4960. I do consider this a clarity issue if = not addressed. Even if I wonder if it is at all possible to violate it, as = the TSN is not larger field than the FSN.

2. Section 2.2.2:

   The sender MUST NOT be fragmenting more than one user message = in any
   given stream at any time.  At any time, a sender MAY frag= ment
   multiple user messages, each of them on different streams.

If I have read this document correctly, the above implies something that ma= ybe should be made more clear. If one has unordered messages, one could in = fact have a transmission schedule for a single stream that looks like this = (MID/FSN):

0/0
1/0
0/1
2/0
0/3

In other words on the same stream have one large fragmented messages, and m= ultiple non-fragemented messessages overtaking the large fragmented one?
I wonder if this should be clarified as being allowed.

3. Section 2.2.3:

   Upon reception of an SCTP packet containing an I-DATA chunk if= the
   message needs to be reassembled, then the receiver MUST use th= e FSN
   for reassembly of the message and not the TSN.

This above assumes that one has identified first the stream based on SID, a= nd then using the MID of the I-DATA to determine the message the chunk actu= ally contains. It might be a point to clarify these assumptions going into = the above sentence.

4. Section 3:

There appear to be an assumption here that isn't made clear. Namely that th= e sender side implementation and the application using the SCTP implementat= ion instance is the one that selects which stream scheduler to use. There i= s no negotiation, not even protocol level indication to the receiver for what is being used. That means that f= or applications that has dependency on what stream scheduling behaviors the= far sender has, needs to communicate that out-of-band or on top of the est= ablished association between the instances.

To be clear I don't have a pressing case where this would be a problem, but= I think it should be made explicit these assumptions.

5. Section 3.2:

   When not using user message interleaving, this scheduler provi= des a
   fair scheduling based on the number of user messages by cyclin= g
   around non-empty stream queues.  When using user message<= br>    interleaving, this scheduler provides a fair scheduling based = on the
   number of I-DATA chunks by cycling around non-empty stream que= ues.

I think this description is insufficient to produce a behaviour that is con= sistent between implementors. I find it lacking in explanation on a couple = of different aspects.

A. Ordering of the stream specific queues. When a message is added to a str= eam that had nothing queued, is that stream handled in stream ID order, or = is the stream added as the last in the list/ cyclic queue of the current st= reams having data to send?

B. The behaviour when adding chunks to a packet. For non interleaved, I ass= ume this one will add a DATA chunk from the next stream, assuming it will f= it within in MTU boundaries, else send. For I-DATA should one fill up the p= acket to the MTU boundary and then send the packet, independently how many bytes of message data that fits?

6. Section 3.3:

   This is a round-robin scheduler but bundles only DATA or I-DAT= A
   chunks referring to the same stream in a packet.  This mi= nimizes
   head-of-line blocking when a packet is lost because only a sin= gle
   stream is affected.

In this case, for non-interleaved, am I allowed to fit the next message int= o the SCTP packet, if it can fit in the remaining size before MTU, or does = this scheduler result in under utilized packets?

For fragmented, I will assume that I am allowed to fill one packet worth of= chunks from this stream, independent of how many messages that implies?
7. Section 3.5:

   This
   scheduler considers the lengths of the messages of each stream= and
   schedules them in a certain way to maintain an equal bandwidth= for
   all streams.

Is the above taking only the scheduled for transmission into account, or is= also past transmissions relevant in the scheduling decision between stream= s?

8. Section 4.3.1:

Some implementations might
   therefore put some restrictions on setting combinations of the= se
   values.

This doesn't appear to be sound API definitions. Wouldn't it be clearer to = actually either require to option to be set prior, or alternatively, settin= g this, causing the other to also be set to avoid issues?

9. Section 6:

   This document does not add any additional security considerati= ons in
   addition to the ones given in [RFC4960] and [RFC6458].

   It should be noted that the application has to consent that it= is
   willing to do the more complex reassembly support required for= user
   message interleaving.

I think this is an insufficient security consideration section. It hints at= a receiver resource exhaustion attack. I think that should be made clear w= hat this attacks entail, and what mitigations that can be considered.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
Ericsson AB                 | = Phone  +46 10 7148287
F=E4r=F6gatan 6                &nbs= p;| Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
--_000_8c1c7c5ccc0649798aa999849c6cbb7dmeraru_-- From nobody Tue Dec 20 07:54:13 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B31B129A63 for ; Tue, 20 Dec 2016 07:54:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-3.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5kbPGr9YgWLT for ; Tue, 20 Dec 2016 07:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00B6B129AB5 for ; Tue, 20 Dec 2016 07:53:46 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.33,379,1477954800"; d="scan'208,217";a="250893329" Received: from geve.inrialpes.fr ([194.199.28.1]) by mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 20 Dec 2016 16:53:45 +0100 From: Vincent Roca Message-Id: <2068BE02-4309-410A-BA7E-753366CC8DF6@inria.fr> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DFF53AFE-01D5-46E5-B101-5642E6525E02" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.1 \(3251\)) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 16:53:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: To: szigeti@cisco.com, FredBaker.IETF@gmail.com References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) Archived-At: Cc: tsvwg WG Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01 as PS, closes 31 Dec 2016 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2016 15:54:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DFF53AFE-01D5-46E5-B101-5642E6525E02 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear authors, I've read draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01 and find the quality pretty = good.=20 I have a few comments but it's more for clarification purposes. 1- Abstract is pretty similar to the general introduction, but not = totally. E.g., abstract explains that the wireless/wired difference come from the presence of = two independent SDOs (only), while section 1 adds the nature of wireless communications. = I'd suggest to shorten the abstract and go deeper into details in Section 1 to avoid = such differences. 2- Section 4.1.1: Could you please simplify the following sentence:=20 "So too SHOULD Network Control..." and the end of this paragraph. I have problems understanding it. 3- Section 5.3: the notion of "DSCP trust" is a little bit strange. For me, the notion of trust is associated to a security assessment. For instance, marking could be trusted because it's handled by a secure = mechanism, because the packet integrity is verifiable, etc. =46rom what I = understand, "trusted" means that DSCP marking is more accurate (6 bits) than UP marking (3 bits). = That's totally different. 4- Section 8, "Security considerations":=20 this section is strange as it references a single threat. Do you mean = that no other risk exists? Whether this is the case or not, this should be clearly said. 5- Section 8, "Security considerations": =20 More generally, if a end-host can cheat while marking its traffic, then = DoS are pretty easy to launch. Is there any solution to this problem? One can probably reduce = risks, for instance by rate limiting techniques on a per source MAC or IP address basis = (assuming this address has not been forged), but solving risks totally seems difficult without = strong authentication. Perhaps WPA/WPA2 could help here? I don't know what you think about it? 6- Section 8, "Security considerations": I'm also wondering if the DSCP/UP mapping process can be considered = secure? Section 3 gives some insights ("all wireless endpoint devices support the ability to = support fully-configurable mappings..."). A malware may corrupt this end-host mapping, no? 7- Section 8, "Security considerations": Having an empty 8.1 Privacy considerations section is strange. Say = explicitely that you don't think this document has any impact here. Typos and other details -------------------------------- ** Section 1.2 says: "... without reference to the service plan = documented in Section 1.1". It is not so obvious for me that section 1.1 refers to the "1.1 Related = work" section or not, nor a specific reference in this section. Please = clarify. ** Section 5.3: - "to achieve and end-to-end differentiated service" =3D> an ** Section 6.3: - missing closing parenthesis in sentence: "(as a baseline" - "to be make in line with" =3D> made Best regards, Vincent > This email announces a TSVWG Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on: >=20 > DiffServ to IEEE 802.11 Mapping > draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01 >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11/ >=20 > This WGLC will last for about 3 weeks weeks (due to the holiday = season). >=20 > Comments should be sent to the tsvwg@ietf.org list, although purely > editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: the > WG chairs at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org if you would like the chairs to > track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC process. >=20 > No IPR disclosures have been submitted directly on > draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01 >=20 > Thanks, > Gorry, David and Wes > (TSVWG Co-Chairs) >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_DFF53AFE-01D5-46E5-B101-5642E6525E02 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Dear authors,

I've = read draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01 and find the quality pretty = good. 

I = have a few comments but it's more for clarification purposes.


1- Abstract is pretty similar to the general = introduction, but not totally. E.g., abstract
explains that the wireless/wired difference come from the = presence of two independent
SDOs (only), while = section 1 adds the nature of wireless communications. I'd = suggest
to shorten the abstract and go deeper into = details in Section 1 to avoid such differences.


2- = Section 4.1.1: Could you please simplify the following = sentence: 
"So too SHOULD Network = Control..."
and the end of this paragraph. I have = problems understanding it.


3- Section 5.3: the = notion of "DSCP trust" is a little bit strange.
For = me, the notion of trust is associated to a security = assessment.
For instance, marking could be trusted = because it's handled by a secure mechanism,
because = the packet integrity is verifiable, etc. =46rom what I understand, = "trusted" means
that DSCP marking is more accurate = (6 bits) than UP marking (3 bits). That's totally
different.


4- = Section 8, "Security considerations": 
this = section is strange as it references a single threat. Do you mean that no = other risk exists?
Whether this is the case or not, = this should be clearly said.


5- = Section 8, "Security considerations":  
More = generally, if a end-host can cheat while marking its traffic, then DoS = are pretty easy to
launch. Is there any solution to = this problem? One can probably reduce risks, for instance by
rate limiting techniques on a per source MAC or IP address = basis (assuming this address has
not been forged), = but solving risks totally seems difficult without strong = authentication.
Perhaps WPA/WPA2 could help here? I = don't know what you think about it?


6- = Section 8, "Security considerations":
I'm also = wondering if the DSCP/UP mapping process can be considered secure? = Section 3 gives
some insights ("all wireless = endpoint devices support the ability to support fully-configurable = mappings...").
A malware may corrupt this end-host = mapping, no?

7- Section 8, "Security = considerations":
Having an empty 8.1 Privacy = considerations section is strange. Say explicitely that you = don't
think this document has any impact = here.



Typos and other details
--------------------------------

** Section 1.2 says: = "... without reference to the service plan documented in Section = 1.1".
It is not so obvious for me that section 1.1 = refers to the "1.1 Related work" section or not, nor a specific = reference in this section. Please clarify.

** Section 5.3:
        - "to achieve and end-to-end = differentiated service" =3D> an

** Section 6.3:
        - missing closing parenthesis in = sentence: "(as a baseline"
      =   - "to be make in line with" =3D> made


Best regards,

  Vincent



This email announces a TSVWG Working Group Last Call (WGLC) = on:

=             &n= bsp;DiffServ to IEEE 802.11 Mapping
=             &n= bsp;draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11/<= /a>

This WGLC will last for about 3 weeks = weeks (due to the holiday season).

= Comments should be sent to the
tsvwg@ietf.org list, although purely
= editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: = the
WG chairs at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org  if you would like the chairs = to
track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC = process.

No IPR disclosures have been = submitted directly on
draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-01

Thanks,
Gorry, David and = Wes
(TSVWG Co-Chairs)



= --Apple-Mail=_DFF53AFE-01D5-46E5-B101-5642E6525E02-- From nobody Wed Dec 21 14:43:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FC6812960D for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2016 14:43:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-3.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YfejrYY6dnh4 for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2016 14:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.fh-muenster.de (mail.fh-muenster.de [212.201.120.190]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E4A5127078 for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2016 14:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from Idefix3.fritz.box (unknown [178.251.15.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: fw153970) by mail.fh-muenster.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39D8A2845F1; Wed, 21 Dec 2016 23:43:39 +0100 (CET) To: Michael Tuexen References: <5d0e5917-304a-788a-d0bd-adf39a4ab672@fh-muenster.de> <155C353F-9F5B-4F60-99F4-18EFE9059050@lurchi.franken.de> From: Felix Weinrank Organization: =?UTF-8?Q?Fachhochschule_M=c3=bcnster?= Message-ID: <0e241a4a-8ca6-4393-ae9d-e32b6bca135a@fh-muenster.de> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 23:43:39 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:50.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/50.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <155C353F-9F5B-4F60-99F4-18EFE9059050@lurchi.franken.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC for draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata as PS, closes 22 Dec 2016 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 22:43:51 -0000 No additional comments, the previous comments already covered mine. Especially Michael Welzl's comment to describe the WFQ more precisely is an important point for me. Am 19.12.16 um 19:09 schrieb Michael Tuexen: >> On 19 Dec 2016, at 13:22, Felix Weinrank wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I used the draft to implement the I-DATA extension in the INET Framework for the OMNeT++ simulation environment. >> This includes both; the User Message Interleaving and the Stream Schedulers. >> In addition to the usage within the simulation environment, we successfully tested our implementation with the FreeBSD kernel implementation. > Any comments? > > Best regards > Michael >> Best regards >> Felix >> >> >> Am 08.12.16 um 08:36 schrieb gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk: >>> This mail announces a TSVWG Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on: >>> >>> Stream Schedulers and User Message Interleaving for SCTP >>> draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata >>> >>> This WGLC will last for 2 weeks weeks. >>> >>> Comments should be sent to the tsvwg@ietf.org list, although purely >>> editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors. Please cc: the >>> WG chairs at tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org if you would like the chairs to >>> track such editorial comments as part of the WGLC process. >>> >>> No IPR disclosures have been submitted directly on >>> draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Gorry >>> (TSVWG Co-Chair) >>> >>> From nobody Tue Dec 27 01:45:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A649127A90; Tue, 27 Dec 2016 01:44:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Meeting Session Request Tool\"" To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.40.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148283189933.14208.11123563905328804287.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 01:44:59 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, tsvwg@ietf.org, tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [tsvwg] tsvwg - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 98 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 09:44:59 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Gorry Fairhurst, a Chair of the tsvwg working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Transport Area Working Group Area Name: Transport Area Session Requester: Gorry Fairhurst Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 1 Hour, 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 75 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: tcpinc quic ippm taps mptcp tcpm rtcweb rmcat aqm iccrg tsvarea Second Priority: intarea dispatch nfsv4 tram v6ops Third Priority: artarea ccamp Special Requests: [If rtcweb has 2 sessions, 1 must not conflict] [Must not conflict with Transport Area BoFs] ---------------------------------------------------------