From nobody Sat Aug 1 03:42:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FB813A0D23 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 03:42:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mrKxQ3ReLk5D for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 03:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk [137.50.19.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C68B3A0D1F for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 03:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GF-MacBook-Pro.lan (fgrpf.plus.com [212.159.18.54]) by pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1FE151B0025E for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 11:42:20 +0100 (BST) To: "tsvwg@ietf.org" From: Gorry Fairhurst Message-ID: <505789c0-9402-6b2e-58a4-2369196ae651@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 11:42:19 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] WGLC of draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp to CONCLUDE 22nd Aug 2020 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 10:42:25 -0000 This email starts the WGLC for "Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) Network Address Translation Support". The intended status is a Standards Track RFC. The current version of the document can be found at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp/ Please review the latest version and please let us know any comments or suggestions. TSVWG needs reviews to ensure that the content is ready to move forward. Feedback supporting publication ("+1") is also very welcome. Thanks Gorry, on behalf of the TSVWG chairs From nobody Sat Aug 1 03:45:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 023983A0D24 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 03:45:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WvCDCarAhaSf for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 03:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk [137.50.19.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4762F3A0D0C for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 03:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GF-MacBook-Pro.lan (fgrpf.plus.com [212.159.18.54]) by pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 81EAE1B0025E for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 11:45:09 +0100 (BST) References: <6578_1596012466_5F2137B2_6578_50_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031507BEC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> To: "tsvwg@ietf.org" From: Gorry Fairhurst X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <6578_1596012466_5F2137B2_6578_50_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031507BEC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Message-ID: <92052747-9bbc-9a66-107c-286627e97996@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 11:45:08 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6578_1596012466_5F2137B2_6578_50_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031507BEC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------73BD8C7B10E05EBF01EE47E8" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC of draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp to CONCLUDE 22nd Aug 2020 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 10:45:14 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------73BD8C7B10E05EBF01EE47E8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Authors/WG, Please treat the enclosed comments as a part of the WGLC proceess, Gorry -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Review of draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 08:47:45 +0000 From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com To: Gorry Fairhurst , Michael Tuexen CC: tsvwg@ietf.org Hi Gorry, all, I support the document to advance in the publication process. As I may not be available in the coming weeks, please find below some ** minor ** comments to be considered as part of the WGLC: * pdf: https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/master/draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp-20-rev%20Med.pdf * doc: https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp-20-rev%20Med.docx Cheers, Med --------------73BD8C7B10E05EBF01EE47E8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Authors/WG,

Please treat the enclosed comments as a part of the WGLC proceess,


Gorry

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Review of draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 08:47:45 +0000
From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
To: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Michael Tuexen <tuexen@fh-muenster.de>
CC: tsvwg@ietf.org <tsvwg@ietf.org>


Hi Gorry, all,
I support the document to advance in the publication process.

As I may not be available in the coming weeks, please find below some ** minor ** comments to be considered as part of the WGLC:
* pdf: https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/master/draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp-20-rev%20Med.pdf
* doc: https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp-20-rev%20Med.docx
Cheers,
Med

--------------73BD8C7B10E05EBF01EE47E8-- From nobody Sat Aug 1 06:36:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 345E83A0303 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 06:36:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4heeNcvKvwUT for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 06:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from drew.franken.de (mail-n.franken.de [193.175.24.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11FF53A02F9 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 06:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:8109:1140:c3d:41a2:e6a1:fc54:4219] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:8109:1140:c3d:41a2:e6a1:fc54:4219]) (Authenticated sender: lurchi) by mail-n.franken.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2D23B72230C1C; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 15:36:49 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) From: Michael Tuexen In-Reply-To: <92052747-9bbc-9a66-107c-286627e97996@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 15:36:47 +0200 Cc: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <840FACBA-C030-44E5-92B3-7588DD765E21@lurchi.franken.de> References: <6578_1596012466_5F2137B2_6578_50_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933031507BEC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <92052747-9bbc-9a66-107c-286627e97996@erg.abdn.ac.uk> To: Gorry Fairhurst X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC of draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp to CONCLUDE 22nd Aug 2020 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 13:36:56 -0000 On 1. Aug 2020, at 12:45, Gorry Fairhurst wrote: >=20 > Authors/WG, >=20 > Please treat the enclosed comments as a part of the WGLC proceess, Will do, can't respond issue-by-issue, since the comments are in = .docx/.pdf. Best regards Michael >=20 >=20 > Gorry >=20 > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Review of draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp > Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 08:47:45 +0000 > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > To: Gorry Fairhurst , Michael Tuexen = > CC: tsvwg@ietf.org >=20 >=20 > Hi Gorry, all,=20 > I support the document to advance in the publication process. >=20 > As I may not be available in the coming weeks, please find below some = ** minor ** comments to be considered as part of the WGLC:=20 > * pdf: = https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/master/draft-ietf-ts= vwg-natsupp-20-rev%20Med.pdf > * doc: = https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-ietf-tsv= wg-natsupp-20-rev%20Med.docx=20 > Cheers, > Med=20 >=20 From nobody Sat Aug 1 08:42:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF5AD3A0928 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 08:42:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mti-systems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Usm9qibjbQm5 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 08:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E69623A08EC for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 08:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com with SMTP id s15so11065194qvv.7 for ; Sat, 01 Aug 2020 08:42:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mti-systems-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=OHS88JOwnb641yJaKeABi6zFvIngnqUAKiljkHRSFC8=; b=Vos4PUZ0+HLvMX7TAwC+OQypcy5poTkCGNerZP8rkp9eGD9SAQSDBVIioyTo0gEiFV XPzygo20b8aSYJcow1izds3cgG8cxkWeQvlD4oDQmdJEVAf5P6fmTcFED5Mk3MpUONSu iuxubLAVTJ5l10FmcTgnq2BEtlwbD7MzyHConORvJpudlwp7xlpcBlE5zPAMSw6y3KrE Y2ugnappj6HULX3lizYwFCflE+YSVvuFfISN32yiQ/xRgqX+C8ZTau0z5qdMy8eIgy4T 4KGEZumlTyLqdfbA0+1tF7BzIXGLEc+W3coLqybpAm5wCod96oe+5WQkmg/AA0LDDDdO Fc5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=OHS88JOwnb641yJaKeABi6zFvIngnqUAKiljkHRSFC8=; b=F9QAxXDKNxN6rGcsK8ByoU3hH5baNw6F6M5vBnRAGNB+LdmTu6BMt66m90ip6u8ZCI VL1FSTwtShQApbqO78+3LKq1YhzYAsoo/uWZMukN3oQPUsiQP5Yhjss3nMNCR/7ajWN8 BcdELPIiS5kAVJTjyIgWy5mpa8j8HuKLPeBKf08SbNboRr3BugE+N3wMUP3GsZQy910t 5sPdwjEuiGAawsiZJdfeVNEffgIuDGltxmKhHotnDUNZj2yKrvJPCfLC0cOp+4RI7siZ DY4SmcQrT3P1PVMKxPc+SK67mRy7NJRs9le69Nao5jJQ6Zuxvpn5JBUsc6QX8uC6imPO k5MA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530s9K9vVHU6WcDDXvOs4DlbebAMY+JlZ4f9ajIid2f0ryRPrLbQ yzbjbQGNSmj2rY23TRVW8WOayPH9agtVRw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzeEr8HQlhvfDs8w7+9y3x8gtAjYMTtHNSHtMTojDu3Ym1ROOB8O70mD7xEXSRGzfOHuHsdzw== X-Received: by 2002:ad4:444e:: with SMTP id l14mr8785363qvt.111.1596296526428; Sat, 01 Aug 2020 08:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (user-12l31c7.cable.mindspring.com. [69.81.133.135]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y24sm13194732qtv.71.2020.08.01.08.42.05 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 01 Aug 2020 08:42:06 -0700 (PDT) To: "tsvwg@ietf.org" From: Wesley Eddy Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 11:42:02 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] L4S issue #21 - what does the WG expect to be done? X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 15:42:10 -0000 There was a brief thread on issue #21 ("CE codepoint semantics") previously: https://trac.ietf.org/trac/tsvwg/ticket/21 https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/OW7IDC9x_ZyOJgh0EuZtWt3omVc/ There was a mixed response to the proposal that we should be closing this as a duplicate to #16 + #17.  I did not see description of what the people who think this ticket should stay active want to do specifically in regard to this beyond #16 and #17. Jonathan made a good point in the thread that #16 and #17 could be viewed as stemming from this one, though as far as I understand, changing the usage of CE is not under consideration at the moment, and the WG's chosen approach is to mitigate the resulting #16+#17 instead.  I also don't think it would make sense to close #16+#17 in favor of keeping this ticket, since it is a less specific one.  As usual, please correct if I'm misunderstanding. In order to keep this ticket open, there needs to be a specific goal or action identified for it that isn't already part of #16+#17. From nobody Sat Aug 1 12:49:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31A43A0E4F for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 12:49:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OSkxOsiw0Pnd for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 12:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2566A3A0E4B for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 12:49:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1596311361; bh=8ntM9vBFs9OlJO1sNPa9dVMw02FyrAYa0i9ct/x0Fmk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=k2T2+/recyKSKs/+yZ2KrslrOxB8fJlKYyLIIQbBskGQyHRw29hpYSXKmBbPdDdUV kk32/jwqT8kbA3S3k65CWV1jykq0AotRWoRydqBXCUKUjiVrFvAYmez9zY2SWKRLX1 iuaTUtni6CujnFFYtT0uerPK2MJ5uNZBVCGR5j5Y= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.42.229] ([77.8.230.224]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M8ykg-1k5orW3xLi-0067e4; Sat, 01 Aug 2020 21:49:21 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 21:49:19 +0200 Cc: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <159610640877.23292.15712739866659063100@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Greg White X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vIrYo04EphQreF/rPzrDhGHqVvHmreGGofqxA7Dg5G81pI2rmb/ w6Y4g5FUfikSAgWU9lpzuVkEMDn5Atts1KIHwnyeiPucmFCF4WyLsxcnj6fVaXov8RAmjMD XmFSLWgn/k4dPjTlyQUlNVg8JeVmgw2rXh2ibsfR92MKdy78nS7YNS8I1thpFIbFLLpTtcH KdJn0FoBMftJIbp9EQonw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:RyUAhkG+45o=:53VVrijdepN7sZ5kshn/nk bDUPBtZrYYyTcgqOWzryADvghwbyWJHOElnC7iGDxEIrTG3b0WAnihL1+jlVuUQGZzxZmlKsb 0ChGCWHoLFbMJ+NBpa9kTs9vlbekHZ982e4Vmf5qE6myIhD5SdfP3b2UIEE9jsU8/dqXNkMxR U9galiPbgBp1N3dw9tRgqRG4ET98jUmZV5c3MAWeUi/V6rq4oPPM/NTj8Y8A6IZlaMz3FKPJp ZoyojyQYicY8u5dkHCETziIlI/iFaMIv5RRvuwJZ3qhzaigfYrHn41w/IFVGS4cYK/dUwEWIs SxTCXPJ+W2LtUOcrhLeN5ru0xfA0Z1pf99/i7tylrgSCQrg/A21Q+GCInxezcQl4/y/ZetQnJ 0lSppTzycrD7uQ8C2IkvHLSPxuIh6zNOREEJdOKFXil7b6OJX8xJMQmWKDDctoCLkd7thOF9l QpJrQ/1DR2HHtCDOiIetpdqUdE6z9CUkyHn7i7Qz78cHHq1rZCWxS7o+Ku+yjsGofwiyoefxT 7f4OGMDxhrScXv2Vnau1xOeoU4YV6ssA7h5UGSuqvNPC3gTSLLQNZF575Ntvn6w8wVjSGsT/g j2aVkd1JEU4+MmBCgruM+2jx2Me4t4e/5ZsywcRzbEtYp7KxG0r++J1+JXR33gXJnr0lG85Cc uU9T3jeiMjoOlIg9mP7Suq0G+PuxjtMK8CQ3DOmgceMVEaN0VVu5VF3b2yBY1kyGz/TQPH71q LO34TFiSEGGsCj4GC0FqwoRuXugYqwLylZQtKpUmEKXXKclGg4xOlb41pJBXp4qqmikO7X1KF EA0HHNa+OXYVIu5gPRX7PaQchnQvZ8B8C27dscim99NUCN7t/2/2YZAsL72LzqXrojzAS335v wmPGBKB5tkQTqoLDXIv8nciJv6bdtCsTW02xtPVVmxDzBlWE+cG1rX5Gpo+C5R8a3KBUGfU3D O9Oxt74Ryfli/BmwbPIH80IuOn8W3kb3+OlpVwk7PaIfVTWFhiV+UGGjXS2cWc02aWrEnabII B4htN5s+pNBYZabepn1RlqpFIx57eAJ8ICJYiNR5mvnikYb5MzNOlJcJg0YEb34rTVtEDhSlc KFYeZJ2v3MUDFMnulGlKdfjs0k2iemLqSPBeRRQoei70sVC4iLyDeMecTWSCV4+IzKzNNdzin YyFTxltzAa0FDp29qnl/EyyYpNaaWLWoStonW5hd38MTKAFPPIw/XlUCgAfbh6x5EmzQ/Wz+R +LITOPD4l2u1wCj9k Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] FW: New Version Notification for draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops-00.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 19:49:33 -0000 Hi Greg, section 4&5: "4. Operator of a Network While it is, of course, preferred for networks to deploy L4S-capable high fidelity congestion signaling, a network operator who has deployed equipment in a likely bottleneck link location (i.e. a link that is expected to be fully saturated) that is configured with an RFC3168 FIFO AQM can take certain steps in order to improve rate fairness between classic traffic and L4S traffic." [SM] I beg to differ, it is far from clear whether it is generally = preferred for networks to deploy L4S-capable high fidelity congestion = signaling unless the L4S team finally coughs up the long requested tests = over something else than the one thing we know this would work, the low = hop-count short RTT path from close CDNs to end-users.=20 "4.1. Configure AQM to treat ECT1 as NotECT If equipment is configurable in such as way as to only supply CE marks to ECT0 packets, and treat ECT1 packets identically to NotECT, or is upgradable to support this capability, doing so will eliminate the risk of unfairness." [SM] Quick poll, does anybody know of equipment configurable to that = degree? So is this a REALISTIC option or are we enumerating theoretical = possibilities here? I fear it is the latter but would love to be wrong. "4.2. Configure Non-Coupled Dual Queue Equipment supporting RFC3168 may be configurable to enable two parallel queues for the same traffic class, with classification done based on the ECN field. Option 1: o Configure 2 queues, both with ECN; 50:50 WRR scheduler o Queue #1: ECT1 & CE packets - Shallow immediate AQM target o Queue #2: ECT0 & NotECT packets - Classic AQM target o Outcome * n L4S flows and m long-running Classic flows * if m & n are non-zero, get 1/2n and 1/2m of the capacity, otherwise 1/n or 1/m * never < 1/2 each flow's rate if all had been Classic" [SM] Please correct me if I am wrong, but that sems likely to introduce = gratuitous re-ordering of packets in true rfc3168 flows, just like the = main L4S design? "Option 2: o Configure 2 queues, both with AQM; 50:50 WRR scheduler o Queue #1: ECT1 & NotECT packets - ECN disabled o Queue #2: ECT0 & CE packets - ECN enabled o Outcome * ECT1 treated as NotECT * Flow balance for the 2 queues the same as in option 1" [SM] This seems the safer option regarding potential re-ordering, and = that fact shoud be explicitly mentioned, no? "4.4. ECT1 Tunnel Bypass Using an RFC6040 compatibility mode tunnel, tunnel ECT1 traffic through the RFC3168 bottleneck with the outer header indicating Not- ECT. Two variants 1. per-domain: tunnel ECT1 pkts to domain edge towards dst 2. per-dst: tunnel ECT1 pkts to dst" [SM] Hrm, IMHO there are only two rationally defensible tunnel designs = with regards to ECN psiible, either always copy to out on en- and copy = to inner on de-capsulation, or never do so (basically ECN-opaque and = ECN-transparent tunneling) all the other clever recommendations of the = past lead us into the mess that we are in today. This proposal would be = going in the opaque tunneling direction, except it seems to advertize = doing this differentially for ECT(1) and ECT(0) which I consider being = part of the problem, not of the solution. "4.5. Disable RFC3168 ECN Marking While not a recommended alternative, disabling RFC3168 ECN marking eliminates the fairness issue. Clearly a downside to this approach is that classic senders will no longer get the benefits of Explict Congestion Notification. 4.6. Re-mark ECT1 to NotECT Prior to AQM While not a recommended alternative, remarking ECT1 packets as NotECT ensures that they are treated identically to classic NotECT senders. However, this also eliminates the possibility of downstream L4S bottlenecks providing high fidelity congestion signals." [SM] I appreciate that this list both of the ultima-ratio solutions with = their immediate consequences, but without any bias which of the two is = less despicable. "5. Researchers 5.1. Detection of Classic ECN FIFO Bottlenecks TODO: Describe active testing methods, in-band or out-of-band, that can distinguish FIFO from FQ." [SM] IMHO this will need to take care to explicitly elaborate which = heuristics come with which failure modes. Also this needs to acknowledge = that FQ can ameliorate the issue, but at least in ist stochastic version = is not a full solution. "5.2. End-to-end measurement of L4S vs. Classic performance TBD" [SM] Funny, that, as far as I can tell there is quite a lot of that = still on the TODO list for team L4S ;) Many thanks for starting this Best Regards Sebastian > On Jul 30, 2020, at 13:05, Greg White wrote: >=20 > TSVWG members- >=20 > I've posted a rough draft of Operational Guidance for L4S deployment. = This is not much more than an outline at this point, and is almost = certainly incomplete even at that, so please read it with that in mind.=20= >=20 > -Greg >=20 >=20 > From: "internet-drafts@ietf.org" > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 4:53 AM > To: Greg White > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops-00.txt >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Greg White and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops > Revision: 00 > Title: Operational Guidance for Deployment of L4S in = the Internet > Document date: 2020-07-30 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 7 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops-00.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops-00 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > This is an early, work-in-progress draft - a start at getting some = of > the ideas from the mailing list and email exchanges on paper. >=20 > This draft is intended to provide guidance to operators of end- > systems, operators of networks, and researchers in order to ensure > reasonable fairness between L4S and Classic flows sharing a single- > queue RFC3168 bottleneck link. This draft identifies opportunites = to > prevent and/or detect and resolve fairness problems in such = networks. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Sun Aug 2 11:21:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CAB63A0A96; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 11:21:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no 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Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:19:39 +0200 Received: from fhad-ex04.fhad.fh-muenster.de ([fe80::c97a:37b6:5abe:2799]) by fhad-ex04.fhad.fh-muenster.de ([fe80::c97a:37b6:5abe:2799%2]) with mapi id 15.01.1979.003; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:19:39 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Timo_V=F6lker?= To: "tsvwg@ietf.org" CC: Michael Tuexen Thread-Topic: Review of draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp-20 Thread-Index: AQHWajf/d7+pE+ecxEqrJOwuUta6bg== Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 08:19:39 +0000 Message-ID: <5D42569D-959F-406E-A587-A520029C8257@fh-muenster.de> Accept-Language: en-US, de-DE Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.40.10.32] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E59456E8-BF43-43B3-80C6-99141F7B0AE5"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] Review of draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp-20 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 08:19:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E59456E8-BF43-43B3-80C6-99141F7B0AE5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, here is my review for the SCTP NAT Support draft = (draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp-20). I found only minor issues. I'll start with typos and wording, followed by suggestions to rearrange = or rewrite some text.=20 *Typos, wording, etc.* (syntax: /old text/new text/) Section 1 ... "With the widespread deployment of Network Address Translators = (NAT), specialized code has been added to NAT functions for TCP that = allows multiple hosts to reside behind a NAT /functions/function/ using = internal addresses (see [RFC6890]) and yet share //a /single IPv4 = address, even when two hosts (behind a NAT function) choose the same = port numbers for their connection." ... ... "/The/This/ document also specifies a set of data formats for SCTP = packets and a set of SCTP endpoint procedures to support NAT traversal." = ... Section 4.3 ... "Furthermore//,/ this section focuses on the single point traversal = scenario." ... Section 6=20 "/When/If/ an SCTP endpoint is behind an SCTP-aware NAT a number of = problems may arise as it tries to communicate with its peer:" ... ... "/When/If/ an SCTP endpoint is a server communicating with multiple = peers and the peers are behind the same NAT function, then /the two = endpoints/these peers/ cannot be distinguished by the server. This case = is discussed in Section 6.3." ... ... "/Each of these mechanisms requires/The mechanisms to solve these = problems require/ additional chunks and parameters, defined in this = document," ... Section 6.2.2 ... "upon reception of a packet /containign/containing/ an ABORT chunk = with M bit set and the appropriate error cause code for colliding NAT = binding table state is included," ... ... "The sender of// the/ packet containing the ASCONF chunk, upon = reception of a packet containing an ERROR chunk with M bit set, MUST = stop adding the path to the association." Section 6.3.1 ... "If the packet containing the INIT chunk is originating from an = internal port to /an/a/ remote port for which the NAT function has no = matching NAT binding table entry," ... Section 6.4.1 ... "If the NAT /device/function/ receives a packet// from the internal = network/ for which it has no NAT binding table entry and the packet = contains an ASCONF chunk with the VTags parameter," ... Section 6.4.2 ... "The peer SCTP endpoint receiving such a packet containing an ASCONF = chunk SHOULD/ either// add the address and respond with an = acknowledgment/,// if the address is new to the association (following = all procedures defined in [RFC5061]). /Or, if/If/ the address is already = part of the association, the SCTP endpoint MUST NOT respond with an = error, but instead SHOULD respond with// a/ packet containing an ASCONF = ACK chunk acknowledging the address and take no action (since the = address is already in the association)." ... ... "It MUST validate that the peer of the SCTP association supports the = dynamic address extension. If the peer does not support /it/this = extension/, /the NAT function/it/ MUST discard the incoming packet = containing the ERROR chunk." ... *Rearranging, rewriting, etc.* Definition of incoming and outgoing. Sometimes an incoming packet for a NET function just means that the NAT = function receives a packet (from any direction). Sometimes it means = implicit, that the packet came from the public internet. The term = outgoing packet is used for the other direction. It might makes the text = clearer if either the incoming and outgoing terms are described in the = Terminology section or if the direction is described explicitly in the = text (e.g. /incoming packet/packet coming from the public internet/). Uniqueness of NAT binding table entries (section 4.3) I'm not sure if I understand this correctly. Two entries with the same = Internal-Port and Remote-Port are OK, if the hosts *disabled* the = restart procedure and used different VTags, right? If yes, then the = fifth paragraph in section 4.3 needs to be changed. "This rule can be relaxed, if all NAT binding table entries with the = same Internal-Port and Remote-Port have the support for the restart = procedure /enabled/disabled/." Motivation (section 4.3) Section 4.3 seems a bit overloaded for a motivation. I would remove the = edge cases here and describe them in section 6. * remove everything from (incl.) "Normally a NAT binding table entry = will be created." to (excl.) "The processing of outgoing SCTP packets = containing no INIT chunks is described in the following figure.". * remove the paragraph that starts with "For an incoming packet = containing an INIT chunk a table lookup is made only based" -> The NAT binding table collision is already described in 6.2 and 6.3. -> The part about NAT table entry exists when INIT or ASCONF received = and the lookup when an INIT received (i.e. only by ports) could be added = to 6.1 (e.g. in a subsection NAT function considerations) The section 4.3 should then end with a note that more details can be = found in section 6. SCTP NAPT? (section 6.2) The last sentence of the first paragraph of section 6.2 mentions a NAPT = device. This confuses me. Is there a NAPT specification for SCTP that = can do better here? If not, how about removing this sentence? ASCONF chunk integration (section 6.4.1) In the first paragraph of section 6.4.1 there is a sentence that says = when not to send an ERROR chunk. The ASCONF chunk is not mentioned here. = How about: ... "Such a packet containing an ERROR chunk SHOULD NOT be sent if the = received packet contains// an ASCONF chunk with the VTags parameter or/ = an ABORT, SHUTDOWN COMPLETE or INIT ACK chunk." ... Also, it seems better to switch the position of paragraph 2 and 3, = because the following section (6.4.2) starts with a reference to a = packet containing an ERROR chunk, which is described in paragraph 2. = Switching the position brings it closer together. Wildcard address? (section 6.6) I don't understand the last sentence of section 6.6. "The address to add is the wildcard address" - which address is to be = added and why has it to be the wildcard address? "the lookup address SHOULD also contain the VTags parameter" - what is = the lookup address? 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01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from hms-beagle2.lan ([95.116.252.205]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N6KUd-1kmyT242w5-016jhH; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 12:30:26 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <166EFA24-6CFE-47BF-B970-9FB1AB2AC393@cablelabs.com> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:30:24 +0200 Cc: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5A4B4031-F73A-42D5-B5FE-915B676C83D4@gmx.de> References: <159610640877.23292.15712739866659063100@ietfa.amsl.com> <723D5F7C-7B0F-48B7-AE9B-BF89F4206D0C@gmx.de> <166EFA24-6CFE-47BF-B970-9FB1AB2AC393@cablelabs.com> To: Greg White X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:SWJsDexlZqcuXxebJGzbl+OVOGWNDfl3dd84zFGTSQH9Ap2ld6/ RPIk1SsCx7Mv+y6WpIxVsZynAARnMX5xXxH6eXRj7J6Vh7cNE6liv8cy91VdsnyVtWm7Kqm NsgfwZF9sKIBRN/Nm9GO8bHr/SKtF8YDL56LJzeAldAuSdti3kLvLQZCmuN5ULWIkgpS4QY 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a31W8YMY9SOnt4OIJJKwx9qfGzocTyyfB9dWqzZaIUomlUysfe60JE7ZyUkWfnXBNmPM8pcT6 Zx3yNXBNd84hu3BDWlvMJenMxj1NtDiamjeHKf0OxZjUdJEGcE4092njX0Kz038nimfn70xYt RknAQNWbNx0opUH+bkVEMxQ8CS7AqhhtgEEnDXkBXvX/L6MWycXQEE2I8DqJJOQcuU3OGtpQ6 4F8r851kPUGcQ1cI1tK3raW13hfOkDgbmkV7wEr9ntaG9EjHYctxXwUcr5TtBjgvhMGGPZSwf BniYyOTIFAumMLhQ9+w09fhfwHsOFAAIVFo+KUH0t/8+ifTJFCQAp/yLVCawQAS//TVvkJ59Q zlp6Dgh+2MUzpZSlj Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] FW: New Version Notification for draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops-00.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 10:30:36 -0000 Hi Greg, more below in-line. > On Aug 4, 2020, at 01:35, Greg White wrote: >=20 > Apologies in advance for the mangled URLs in the quoted text below. = My IT department has implemented a system that mangles URLs on inbound = email. > =20 > From: Sebastian Moeller > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 3:43 PM > To: Greg White > Cc: "tsvwg@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] FW: New Version Notification for = draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops-00.txt > =20 > Hi Greg, > =20 > my comments for sections 1 & 2 below (more will follow): > =20 > "1. Introduction > =20 > In the majority of network paths, including paths where the > bottleneck link utilizes packet drops (either due to buffer overrun > or active queue management) in response to congestion, as well as > paths that implement a 'flow-queuing' scheduler such as fq_codel or > Cobalt, and those that implement dual-Q-coupled AQM, L4S traffic > coexists well with classic congestion controlled traffic." > =20 > [SM] This description ignores the birthday paradox issue that Pete = Heist demonstrated. A misbehaving L4S will cause less havok there but it = is not without side-effects on stochastic flow queueing systems, we = might as well acknowledge that, no? > [GW] IIRC that issue can occur in fq_codel, but is much less likely in = Cobalt (due to set-associative hashing). Is that correct? [SM2] As Jonathan wrote less likely in cake, but still possible. = Also, my hypothesis is that fq_codel is more widely in use than cake. > =20 > " On network paths where the bottleneck link implements a = shared-queue > (FIFO) with an Active Queue Management algorithm that provides > Explicit Congestion Notification signaling according to RFC3168, it > has been demonstrated that when a set of long-running flows > comprising both "Classic" congestion controlled flows and L4S- > compliant congestion controlled flows compete for bandwidth, the > classic congestion controlled flows may achieve lower throughput = when > compared to the L4S congestion controlled flows. This 'unfairness' > between the two classes appears to be more pronounced on longer RTT > paths (e.g. 50ms and above) and/or at higher link rates (e.g. 50 = Mbps > and above)." > =20 > This is rather cautious I would use more drastic terms, the observed = unfairness approaches starvation of the non-L4S flows and this text = makes it sound like it is a minor almost theoretical concern. > =20 > [GW] We can definitely wordsmith the text, but we need to be sure that = we are characterizing the situation accurately and not trying to portray = things in drastic terms (or glossy ones) unless it is warranted. =20 [SM2] Well, the thing is Pete Heist's testing (see = https://github.com/heistp/sce-l4s-ect1#typical-internet-jitter) = demonstrated that L4S with rfc3168 detection, which as far as I can tell = is still required for a L4S-compatible transport, is quite bad at = achieving fairness, even with RED.=20 Sidenote: calling 50ms "longer" RTT paths supports my claim, that L4S is = really ONLY ever designed and more cricially TESTED for low-hop count = low RTT paths. > My belief is that it isn=E2=80=99t warranted to use drastic terms = here. =20 [SM2] I accept your believe, but think that we should base = operator recommendations on hard data if possible, that way our = respective beliefs do not muddy the waters. > I think it is a fairly widely held view that single queue RFC3168 = bottlenecks are uncommon at best and the majority of the ones that do = exist are likely to be RED AQMs. =20 [SM2] Data please, or we are back at Bob's line or reasoning, = that because he is bad at measuring something that something might not = even exist. > The testing with RED AQMs showed approximate fairness in most cases = (though more testing would be welcome). [SM2] What is your definition of "approximate fairness"? Can we = agree on calling imbalances inside of 2 orders of base2-magnitude (aka = faktor of 4) as approximately fair and everything beyond 3 orders of = bas2-magnitude (factor 8) starvation? If you disagree with my numbers, = please propose your own set, but let's get away from the idea that = approximate fairness and starvation would be concepts that can not be = defined numerically. > We=E2=80=99ll need to get a sense from the WG as to how to = characterize the situation, given what we know (and what we don=E2=80=99t = know).=20 [SM2] With all due respect this WG has not been great at giving = feed-back on simple questions like "what is starvation" in the past; as = much as I would like to be wrong, I do not see this changing now. > =20 > " The root cause of this unfairness is that RFC3168 does not > differentiate between packets marked ECT0 (used by classic senders) > and those marked ECT1 (used by L4S senders), and provides an > identical congestion signal (CE marks) to both classes, whereas the > two classes respond differently to that congestion signal." > =20 > How about keeping causality intact and frame this as a consequence of = L4S redefining what CE means. There are reasons for doing that, but this = text leaves it unclear who caused this problem (or rather the text = implicates rfc3168, which IMHO violates temporal causality). > =20 > [GW] Point taken. I=E2=80=99ll try to rearrange that. [SM2] Thanks! > =20 > "The result is that the > classic senders respond to the CE marks provided by the bottleneck = by > yielding capacity to the L4S flows. While this has not been > demonstrated to cause starvation of the classic flows, the = resulting > rate imbalance can be a cause of concern." > =20 > Mmmh, = https://protection.greathorn.com/services/v2/lookupUrl/43da5eeb-7a88-4655-= a9ba-bec785235113/327/acff24c9401e4e78e9981cf8beb4d98870d4f8bf?domain=3Dsc= e.dnsmgr.net&path=3D/results/ect1-2020-04-23-final/l4s-s2-twoflow/l4s-s2-t= woflow-ns-cubic-vs-prague-codel1q_20ms_-160ms_tcp_delivery_with_rtt.svg > pretty much demonstrated starvation and that is with TCP-Prague with = rfc3168 detection.=20 > =20 > =20 > [GW] Ok, I will update the text to be more clear. It seems that it = can be demonstrated in contrived setups that it is possible to cause = starvation. That condition was a single queue CoDel (do these exist in = the wild?) with heavily modified settings. CoDel with default settings = did not show unfairness. =20 [SM2] Okay, no please proof that these conditions do not = actually exist in the real world and you are scot free... And no, = changing the target value is not a contrived set-up, for example have a = look at the PIE RFCs where there it is mentioned that for short RTT = paths adjusting the latency target is recommended, and for = codel/fq_codel/cake the same logic applies. This gets ironic, given the = fact that L4S itself is really only taylored for similarly short RTT = paths... > =20 > =20 > "2. Per-Flow Fairness > =20 > There are a number of factors that influence the relative rates > achieved by a set of congestion controlled flows sharing a queue in = a > bottleneck link. > =20 > TODO: discuss startup & convergence times, short flows, RTT- > unfairness, differences in deployed CC algorithms, etc. > =20 > TODO: also mention that flow sharding is commonplace, so per-flow > fairness does not imply per-application fairness" > =20 > =20 > This obviously needs flashing out before one can meaningfully comment, = but regarding the last section, you realize that application not the = relevant classification for intermediate nodes? I would assume that for = an ISP a (potentially weighted) per-end-host fairness would be the exact = tool to avoid sharding as work-around... This is obviously not a new = idea or comment, so if you opt for elaborating on fairness, please also = include known remedies. Or better avoid that discussion here altogether. > =20 > [GW] Thanks. Yes per-end-host fairness could be useful in some = situations. AFAIK most residential ISPs implement some form of = per-customer fairness, which could be argued is more appropriate in that = context. I guess the point is that per-flow fairness isn=E2=80=99t = always (or even usually) the most important metric for most = users/systems. It seems important to discuss this, seeing as per-flow = unfairness is the main concern that has been raised, but I realize this = section could be challenging to write in way that all will agree with. [SM2] Okay, I see why you want to discuss that here. Please keep = in mind, that while per-flow-fairness is not the ultimate solution it = clearly is further along that path than L4S's "anything goes". = Specifically everything that works around the strikter fq-sheduling will = also wreck havoc on "anything goes"-scheduling, so IMHO the argument = that FQ is not perfect is beyond the point, as it seems in all relevant = criteria to be better or equal to "anything goes" (mostly better) with = the sole exemption of computational complexity. I really believe that = this document could do without opening that can of worms... Best Regards Sebastian > =20 > Best Regards > Sebastian > =20 > =20 > > On Jul 30, 2020, at 13:05, Greg White wrote: > >=20 > > TSVWG members- > >=20 > > I've posted a rough draft of Operational Guidance for L4S = deployment. This is not much more than an outline at this point, and is = almost certainly incomplete even at that, so please read it with that in = mind.=20 > >=20 > > -Greg > >=20 > >=20 > > From: "internet-drafts@ietf.org"=20 > > Date: Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 4:53 AM > > To: Greg White=20 > > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops-00.txt > >=20 > > A new version of I-D, draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops-00.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Greg White and posted to the > > IETF repository. > >=20 > > Name: draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops > > Revision: 00 > > Title: Operational Guidance for Deployment of L4S in the = Internet > > Document date: 2020-07-30 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 7 > > URL: = https://protection.greathorn.com/services/v2/lookupUrl/f7c346c8-8443-44e5-= b71e-435217709fda/327/acff24c9401e4e78e9981cf8beb4d98870d4f8bf?domain=3Dww= w.ietf.org&path=3D/internet-drafts/draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops-00.txt > > Status: = https://protection.greathorn.com/services/v2/lookupUrl/e5e7af28-9419-4d0e-= a559-650861096bf9/327/acff24c9401e4e78e9981cf8beb4d98870d4f8bf?domain=3Dda= tatracker.ietf.org&path=3D/doc/draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops/ > > Htmlized: = https://protection.greathorn.com/services/v2/lookupUrl/3b91a498-7692-49a5-= aeb2-601ef0ba245a/327/acff24c9401e4e78e9981cf8beb4d98870d4f8bf?domain=3Dto= ols.ietf.org&path=3D/html/draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops-00 > > Htmlized: = https://protection.greathorn.com/services/v2/lookupUrl/813cf103-4e26-44a1-= 8c2f-a2648d5dacc0/327/acff24c9401e4e78e9981cf8beb4d98870d4f8bf?domain=3Dda= tatracker.ietf.org&path=3D/doc/html/draft-white-tsvwg-l4sops > >=20 > >=20 > > Abstract: > > This is an early, work-in-progress draft - a start at getting some = of > > the ideas from the mailing list and email exchanges on paper. > >=20 > > This draft is intended to provide guidance to operators of end- > > systems, operators of networks, and researchers in order to ensure > > reasonable fairness between L4S and Classic flows sharing a = single- > > queue RFC3168 bottleneck link. This draft identifies opportunites = to > > prevent and/or detect and resolve fairness problems in such = networks. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > >=20 > > The IETF Secretariat > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > =20 From nobody Sun Aug 16 10:42:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F383A0E1E for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:42:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PcF_YnxiyjA1 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mera.com (mail.mera.com [188.40.162.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2BF33A0E1D for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mera-exch3.mera.com ([188.130.168.213] helo=mera-exch.mera.com) by mail.mera.com with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (envelope-from ) id 1k7Mfc-0001xh-Td; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:42:12 +0000 Received: from mera-exch3.mera.com (2001:67c:2344:100::23) by mera-exch3.mera.com (2001:67c:2344:100::23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1591.10; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 20:42:09 +0300 Received: from mera-exch3.mera.com ([fe80::f9eb:6b3e:fd0b:b9b]) by mera-exch3.mera.com ([fe80::f9eb:6b3e:fd0b:b9b%6]) with mapi id 15.01.1591.017; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 20:42:09 +0300 From: Maksim Proshin To: Gorry Fairhurst , "tsvwg@ietf.org" , "tuexen@fh-muenster.de" , "Michael.Tuexen@lurchi.franken.de" Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] WGLC of draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp to CONCLUDE 22nd Aug 2020 Thread-Index: AQHWZ/CHcJRvNRtmF0+/d0Pr5z+i8ak7F0Rg Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:41:54 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:40:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <505789c0-9402-6b2e-58a4-2369196ae651@erg.abdn.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <505789c0-9402-6b2e-58a4-2369196ae651@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Accept-Language: en-GB, ru-RU, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [5.166.200.62] x-inside-org: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC of draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp to CONCLUDE 22nd Aug 2020 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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nobody Fri Aug 21 01:42:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E3A3A08A9 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 01:42:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 026jUptfvhRW for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 01:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:42:150::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42A9A3A0844 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 01:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GF-MacBook-Pro.lan (fgrpf.plus.com [212.159.18.54]) by pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7CF8B1B001C2 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 09:42:43 +0100 (BST) To: "tsvwg@ietf.org" From: Gorry Fairhurst Message-ID: <1b911c7f-86ad-d877-38f8-6943e94fe73c@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 09:42:41 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] WGLC of draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp to CONCLUDE 22nd Aug 2020 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:42:49 -0000 We're about to conclude the WGLC for "Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) Network Address Translation Support". So far, I've seen comments from: Mohamed Boucadair Timo Voelker Maksim Proshin Gorry Fairhurst (comments submitted prior to WGLC) The intended status is a Standards Track RFC. The current version of the document can be found at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp/ Please review the latest version and please let us know any comments or suggestions. TSVWG needs reviews to ensure that the content is ready to move forward. Feedback supporting publication ("+1") is also very welcome. Thanks Gorry, on behalf of the TSVWG chairs From nobody Fri Aug 21 06:49:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 519D43A074B for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 06:49:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.686 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.686 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.212, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TnyNZskHL1oQ for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 06:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from drew.franken.de (mail-n.franken.de [193.175.24.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C9003A0744 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 06:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:8109:1140:c3d:7d61:8d08:31f5:39cc] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:8109:1140:c3d:7d61:8d08:31f5:39cc]) (Authenticated sender: lurchi) by mail-n.franken.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 27FBE721A6415; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 15:49:18 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) From: Michael Tuexen In-Reply-To: <1b911c7f-86ad-d877-38f8-6943e94fe73c@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 15:49:17 +0200 Cc: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1b911c7f-86ad-d877-38f8-6943e94fe73c@erg.abdn.ac.uk> To: Gorry Fairhurst X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC of draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp to CONCLUDE 22nd Aug 2020 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 13:49:25 -0000 > On 21. Aug 2020, at 10:42, Gorry Fairhurst = wrote: >=20 > We're about to conclude the WGLC for > "Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) Network Address = Translation Support". >=20 > So far, I've seen comments from: >=20 > Mohamed Boucadair > Timo Voelker > Maksim Proshin > Gorry Fairhurst (comments submitted prior to WGLC) >=20 > The intended status is a Standards Track RFC. > The current version of the document can be found at: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp/ >=20 >=20 > Please review the latest version and please let us know any comments = or > suggestions. TSVWG needs reviews to ensure that the content is ready = to > move forward. Feedback supporting publication ("+1") is also very > welcome. Will work on addressing the issues raised by the reviews mentioned = above. Best regards Michael >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Gorry, on behalf of the TSVWG chairs >=20 >=20