From urn-nid-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 08:14:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: urn-nid-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-urn-nid-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962AC3A68B0; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:14:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: urn-nid@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: urn-nid@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40223A7002 for ; Tue, 20 May 2008 20:57:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.425 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.425 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, HOST_MISMATCH_COM=0.311, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, WHOIS_MYPRIVREG=1.499] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EwndQGuieXyQ for ; Tue, 20 May 2008 20:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gidgate.gid.co.uk (host-83-146-60-88.dslgb.com [83.146.60.88]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719F328DBEE for ; Tue, 20 May 2008 10:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.13] ([87.242.128.88]) by gidgate.gid.co.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m4KHxmfx020846 for ; Tue, 20 May 2008 18:59:55 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from andy@gid.co.uk) Message-Id: <352F4F60-571C-4782-95DB-88BF542D5338@gid.co.uk> From: Andy Greener To: urn-nid@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-3-1070949403; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Subject: UK NID? Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 18:59:43 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 08:14:45 -0700 X-BeenThere: urn-nid@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussion of new namespace identifiers for URNs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: urn-nid-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: urn-nid-bounces@ietf.org --Apple-Mail-3-1070949403 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I recently joined this list so forgive me if this has been discussed before (I did check the archive at www.nabble.com but couldn't see anything of direct relevance recently). As my sig indicates I'm a technical consultant working for HM Revenue & Customs in the UK, and I'm also a member of a sub-committee of the UK CTO Council's Architecture Review Board that is considering the future of the UK GovTalk policies and standards web site (www.govtalk.gov.uk ). As part of this work we are considering establishing a URN scheme for namespace naming of persistent artefacts (XML Schemas, code lists, etc) across the UK Government space, and naturally the subject of a "UK" NID came up. I note that RFC3406 states that all two-letter combinations are reserved for potential use as countrycode-based NIDs for eventual national registrations of URN namespaces, but it hints at another set of definition & scoping rules for such namespaces. I also note that there are no existing two-letter NIDs on the IANA list, but that at least one country (New Zealand) has already tackled this issue and worked around it by using their ISO three-letter code instead (not an option for us as the three-letter code for the UK is "GBR", which we feel is inappropriate under the circumstances, as well as being somewhat "politically incorrect"). Are we on a hiding to nothing if we wish to pursue the "UK" NID? The registration would be made on behalf of the UK Govt by the Govt's CTO, and it is unclear to me who else would have ultimate authority to formally request this particular NID if it's not the UK government. I expect I'm opening a can of worms here, but if you don't ask you don't get! I'd be grateful for any guidance or advice anyone can give me. The best qualifying alternative we can come up with is "UKGOV", but this is likely to be subsumed into any future "UK" NID anyway (not a desirable attribute for a supposedly persistent naming mechanism! - we'd like to do the "right" thing once, and for all). Andy -- Andy Greener Enterprise Architect Architecture Solutions & Assurance IMS Strategy & Architecture, HMRC andy.greener@hmrc.gsi.gov.uk / andy@gid.co.uk +44 7836 331933 --Apple-Mail-3-1070949403 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGHTCCAtYw ggI/oAMCAQICEHgoGr1yIuU9OZ4H/ddc8yAwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx JTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQ ZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA4MDMyNzExNDUzOFoXDTA5MDMyNzExNDUz OFowQDEfMB0GA1UEAxMWVGhhd3RlIEZyZWVtYWlsIE1lbWJlcjEdMBsGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYOYW5k eUBnaWQuY28udWswggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQC7SNlfHmb2J5Z2XdqQ ZQyawkgiRLqXRHAJM9NwCK4YuxXgl6Yg1Hibsr21PVdxq072QbgGUq+0VjtbOQt65P2NlibWWFMT x4be1PgGX28dnldlthRw22dvJlefA6z1RWHTQue6Jqqz6AFrxsaS4NmuhbDtopJEltQUBIeHGFAi 0D/KDoT/NImvk2N742tK07aeF7mu/hGQARIzisyC79K/ckGj28VjvIOcswEQHhPUvp2vm2n43fOE KcNfyrRcjbUvaT5TPhSySFMHp2UmZBtB89zziRXLdYGjbSlHbuiqGccMRenK2YIcdQHUFe7cx4iq 7yp/Fl6Hmcp0vKyqntKfAgMBAAGjKzApMBkGA1UdEQQSMBCBDmFuZHlAZ2lkLmNvLnVrMAwGA1Ud EwEB/wQCMAAwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEABWaB+Qf8n4677bo90mO7SAx7jafqJcLLm0xP2FVE DC79HzfG/mE1tmMrf6KhQHA/f/OFqxkGDJKQRqc9lmq+2m32iN3p8/tAMDnZxhRvGY3yqsXsbVBG lJjGFFfKDQ0L6g8mWVi4r2C9lhL3qWGm9csSBM9gU+TsTOUxJxDPGWwwggM/MIICqKADAgECAgEN MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIHRMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTEVMBMGA1UECBMMV2VzdGVybiBDYXBlMRIw EAYDVQQHEwlDYXBlIFRvd24xGjAYBgNVBAoTEVRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nMSgwJgYDVQQLEx9D ZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIFNlcnZpY2VzIERpdmlzaW9uMSQwIgYDVQQDExtUaGF3dGUgUGVyc29uYWwg RnJlZW1haWwgQ0ExKzApBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWHHBlcnNvbmFsLWZyZWVtYWlsQHRoYXd0ZS5jb20w HhcNMDMwNzE3MDAwMDAwWhcNMTMwNzE2MjM1OTU5WjBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMc VGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZy ZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0AMIGJAoGBAMSmPFVzVftOucqZ Wh5owHUEcJ3f6f+jHuy9zfVb8hp2vX8MOmHyv1HOAdTlUAow1wJjWiyJFXCO3cnwK4Vaqj9xVsuv PAsH5/EfkTYkKhPPK9Xzgnc9A74r/rsYPge/QIACZNenprufZdHFKlSFD0gEf6e20TxhBEAeZBly YLf7AgMBAAGjgZQwgZEwEgYDVR0TAQH/BAgwBgEB/wIBADBDBgNVHR8EPDA6MDigNqA0hjJodHRw Oi8vY3JsLnRoYXd0ZS5jb20vVGhhd3RlUGVyc29uYWxGcmVlbWFpbENBLmNybDALBgNVHQ8EBAMC AQYwKQYDVR0RBCIwIKQeMBwxGjAYBgNVBAMTEVByaXZhdGVMYWJlbDItMTM4MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEB BQUAA4GBAEiM0VCD6gsuzA2jZqxnD3+vrL7CF6FDlpSdf0whuPg2H6otnzYvwPQcUCCTcDz9reFh YsPZOhl+hLGZGwDFGguCdJ4lUJRix9sncVcljd2pnDmOjCBPZV+V2vf3h9bGCE6u9uo05RAaWzVN d+NWIXiC3CEZNd4ksdMdRv9dX2VPMYIDEDCCAwwCAQEwdjBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UE ChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFs IEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0ECEHgoGr1yIuU9OZ4H/ddc8yAwCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCAW8wGAYJ KoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNMDgwNTIwMTc1OTQzWjAjBgkq hkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUOdJJhupre5CrkR/A/t5r596hRJEwgYUGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDF4MHYwYjELMAkG A1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMT I1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAhB4KBq9ciLlPTmeB/3XXPMgMIGH BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzF4oHYwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0 aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5n IENBAhB4KBq9ciLlPTmeB/3XXPMgMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBALmjRkQ06nwnrXH2d7m4mREJ Y2cNga7IIayr4REoUsRwiMx+X0EdTpK1kBUWgZ/TTRl8XxNeDNWURCI2didtesJUHWczQREnysFz siOdNOsGq/MJ1HrwL5ReaVaWEjlKQzBGo+oEsau3vsFJu1YCgcxrK+NFinTUklv0LVArdvP7H7aU Z+3fmjHL8aPzohdjSLBx8i8DlJBptJAJO2/KpF1wJYtxr08wJTOXGhMlonkZsIqvG/PfsIsJdjqf FXuOIWg4M3j/TISSBqAT9ip8SaXxuSJmNa1mJ5OpoQcvuw6Dzr9DVLdjQJ/vaZi6ACh/cMCf0XNs p0N/ZGHBO0WaIRIAAAAAAAA= --Apple-Mail-3-1070949403-- From urn-nid-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 2 09:48:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: urn-nid-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-urn-nid-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F4F28C240; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:48:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: urn-nid@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: urn-nid@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D08E28C12A for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:29:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.475 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.475 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, J_CHICKENPOX_25=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100, WHOIS_MYPRIVREG=1.499] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0e7KiFqQynux for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38C63A6B25 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:29:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=hardie@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1212424160; x=1243960160; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:to: from:subject:cc:content-type:x-ironport-av; z=MIME-Version:=201.0|Message-ID:=20|In-Reply-To:=20<352F4F60-571C-4782-95DB -88BF542D5338@gid.co.uk>|References:=20<352F4F60-571C-478 2-95DB-88BF542D5338@gid.co.uk>|Date:=20Mon,=202=20Jun=202 008=2009:29:11=20-0700|To:=20Andy=20Greener=20,=20"urn-nid@ietf.org"=20|From:=20 Ted=20Hardie=20|Subject:=20Re:=20UK =20NID?|CC:=20Leslie=20Daigle=20, =0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Lisa=20Dusseault=0D=0A=09|Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20ch arset=3D"us-ascii"|X-IronPort-AV:=20E=3DMcAfee=3Bi=3D"520 0,2160,5307"=3B=20a=3D"3608053"; bh=S52PlXXjf/MaDRc3CkGkkDvNTO406axSw2/UGxABde0=; b=jeOBsF5NzHxtWzu36GnzHT30Xw7g6B+B8QmT/ltnO5lPcAiw8aLNxWtj EKbT5miv1P1ELYnO2oO46a345tC9J0UJSz18nO+df9EWV2K98KvB8OIYa 4Jdsv/oPPyQwplmByApVR9f5sVnbh7vQsZvcwB6r1hJMi3bHUIaBNqvxT 0=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5200,2160,5307"; a="3608053" Received: from pdmz-ns-mip.qualcomm.com (HELO numenor.qualcomm.com) ([199.106.114.10]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Jun 2008 09:29:20 -0700 Received: from totoro.qualcomm.com (totoro.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.158]) by numenor.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m52GTJCn027248 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:29:20 -0700 Received: from nasanexhc03.na.qualcomm.com (nasanexhc03.na.qualcomm.com [172.30.33.34]) by totoro.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m52GTJxA008768 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.46.226.27] (129.46.226.27) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.33.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.278.0; Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:29:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <352F4F60-571C-4782-95DB-88BF542D5338@gid.co.uk> References: <352F4F60-571C-4782-95DB-88BF542D5338@gid.co.uk> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:29:11 -0700 To: Andy Greener , "urn-nid@ietf.org" From: Ted Hardie Subject: Re: UK NID? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 09:48:45 -0700 Cc: Leslie Daigle , Lisa Dusseault X-BeenThere: urn-nid@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussion of new namespace identifiers for URNs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: urn-nid-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: urn-nid-bounces@ietf.org Hi Andy, I've cc'ed Leslie Daigle on this message, as she was quite heavily involved in both setting up the registration procedures and in working with New Zealand on arranging their NID. I've also cc'ed Lisa Dusseault, who is the Area Director who currently processes most URI-related drafts). The first question, at least from my perspective, is what time frame do you need this in? The procedures for getting a namespace identifier according to the current rules are relatively clear cut and with sufficient coordination could probably be done in a couple of months (get a draft written along the New Zealand model, have it go through the required review by the urn-nid list, approved by the IESG). The last step is the longest/least sure since the IESG approves all IETF technical standards and many related documents as well, so their calendar can get full. If you need it relatively quickly, though, using the existing procedures is probably the way to go. You're right that the 2-letter IDs were reserved in 3406, with the following text: NOTE: ALL two-letter combinations, and two-letter combinations followed by "-" and any sequence of valid NID characters are reserved for potential use as countrycode-based NIDs for eventual national registrations of URN namespaces. The definition and scoping of rules for allocation of responsibility for such namespaces is beyond the scope of this document. To allocate a two-letter combination, the rules for the allocation would have to be codified in an update to BCP33/RFC3406 and then a document written that conformed to the new rules. That's pretty much automatically going to be slower than getting a longer NID approved (since it involves two passes through the IESG). Theoretically, there could be some parallel processing, but realistically it will be slower. The big reason it will be slower is that it is not entirely clear how to create a process that allows the IETF/IANA to be assured that a NID request comes from *the part of an individual government* that should be assigned the NID. Since governments vary considerably in their structure, we cannot simply say: "A request from the government's CIO or equivalent to assign will be honored". In some cases, there will be no such office; in others, the request might most appropriately come from a governmental office charged with library services (e.g. the U.S. Library of Congress). There are also codes like AQ (for Antarctica) which are assigned but for which identifying a single governmental entity as responsible is difficult, and codes which ISO has re-assigned after the passage of time (like SK). We would also have to deal with situations like yours in which there is an assigned code (GB) and an exceptionally reserved one (UK). Writing that document and getting agreement on it is unlikely to be quick, and none of this is, honestly, in the IETF's core area of concern or competence. That also makes things slow. If you have no particular time constraints and have the energy to put into proposals here, it may be possible to resolve this. But I do believe it will be relatively slow to complete. regards, Ted Hardie At 10:59 AM -0700 5/20/08, Andy Greener wrote: >Hello, > >I recently joined this list so forgive me if this has been discussed before (I did check the archive at www.nabble.com but couldn't see anything of direct relevance recently). > >As my sig indicates I'm a technical consultant working for HM Revenue & Customs in the UK, and I'm also a member of a sub-committee of the UK CTO Council's Architecture Review Board that is considering the future of the UK GovTalk policies and standards web site (www.govtalk.gov.uk). As part of this work we are considering establishing a URN scheme for namespace naming of persistent artefacts (XML Schemas, code lists, etc) across the UK Government space, and naturally the subject of a "UK" NID came up. > >I note that RFC3406 states that all two-letter combinations are reserved for potential use as countrycode-based NIDs for eventual national registrations of URN namespaces, but it hints at another set of definition & scoping rules for such namespaces. I also note that there are no existing two-letter NIDs on the IANA list, but that at least one country (New Zealand) has already tackled this issue and worked around it by using their ISO three-letter code instead (not an option for us as the three-letter code for the UK is "GBR", which we feel is inappropriate under the circumstances, as well as being somewhat "politically incorrect"). > >Are we on a hiding to nothing if we wish to pursue the "UK" NID? The registration would be made on behalf of the UK Govt by the Govt's CTO, and it is unclear to me who else would have ultimate authority to formally request this particular NID if it's not the UK government. I expect I'm opening a can of worms here, but if you don't ask you don't get! I'd be grateful for any guidance or advice anyone can give me. > >The best qualifying alternative we can come up with is "UKGOV", but this is likely to be subsumed into any future "UK" NID anyway (not a desirable attribute for a supposedly persistent naming mechanism! - we'd like to do the "right" thing once, and for all). > > Andy > >-- >Andy Greener >Enterprise Architect >Architecture Solutions & Assurance >IMS Strategy & Architecture, HMRC > >andy.greener@hmrc.gsi.gov.uk / andy@gid.co.uk >+44 7836 331933 > > > > >Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:smime 1479.p7s ( / ) (007B1E4D) From urn-nid-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 04:41:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: urn-nid-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-urn-nid-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B54D3A6A0F; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 04:41:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: urn-nid@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: urn-nid@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EEB03A6AEF for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 04:41:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, J_CHICKENPOX_25=0.6, WHOIS_MYPRIVREG=1.499] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nY88WAQNW6Md for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 04:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeke.ecotroph.net (zeke.ecotroph.net [70.164.19.155]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60BC3A69F2 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 04:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beethoven.local ([::ffff:196.200.214.43]) (AUTH: PLAIN leslie, SSL: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,AES256-SHA) by zeke.ecotroph.net with esmtp; Tue, 03 Jun 2008 07:38:30 -0400 id 015A48B9.48452D36.000046B6 Message-ID: <48452D9A.4010205@thinkingcat.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 07:40:10 -0400 From: Leslie Daigle User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Macintosh/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Greener Subject: Re: UK NID? References: <352F4F60-571C-4782-95DB-88BF542D5338@gid.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "urn-nid@ietf.org" , Lisa Dusseault X-BeenThere: urn-nid@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussion of new namespace identifiers for URNs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: urn-nid-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: urn-nid-bounces@ietf.org Hi Andy, Ted is correct in that, given sufficient time and energy, just about anything is possible. I'd like to underscore, however, that the missing piece is not about your proposed URN namespace: to "get 'UK'", you would need to solve the whole problem, generally, for country code URNs. What I wrote, almost 3 years ago, when the discussion of NZ came up: [I wrote:] > There is no process defined to vet who represents which country for > the purposes of URN NID registration, and until there is, there will > be no two letter country code NID registrations. > > To counter that argument, solve ICANN's problems in ccTLD zone > administration authority, and then come back :-) > > Less obliquely, there is the very real probability that, for eg, a > national library could claim to be responsible for setting up > permanent identifiers for resources, while the national passport > office turned around and defined something entirely different. How > is the IETF/IANA to determine what authority within the country is > going to arbitrate between them? I hope you understand it is not a trivial problem to solve, and very little of it has to do with engineering. I can appreciate that "GBR" would not work for you; but I hope you can find an alternate that will get you to a working URN namespace soon. Leslie. Ted Hardie wrote: > Hi Andy, I've cc'ed Leslie Daigle on this message, as she was quite > heavily involved in both setting up the registration procedures and > in working with New Zealand on arranging their NID. I've also cc'ed > Lisa Dusseault, who is the Area Director who currently processes most > URI-related drafts). The first question, at least from my > perspective, is what time frame do you need this in? The procedures > for getting a namespace identifier according to the current rules are > relatively clear cut and with sufficient coordination could probably > be done in a couple of months (get a draft written along the New > Zealand model, have it go through the required review by the urn-nid > list, approved by the IESG). The last step is the longest/least sure > since the IESG approves all IETF technical standards and many related > documents as well, so their calendar can get full. If you need it > relatively quickly, though, using the existing procedures is probably > the way to go. You're right that the 2-letter IDs were reserved in > 3406, with the following text: > > NOTE: ALL two-letter combinations, and two-letter combinations > followed by "-" and any sequence of valid NID characters are reserved > for potential use as countrycode-based NIDs for eventual national > registrations of URN namespaces. The definition and scoping of rules > for allocation of responsibility for such namespaces is beyond the > scope of this document. > > To allocate a two-letter combination, the rules for the allocation > would have to be codified in an update to BCP33/RFC3406 and then a > document written that conformed to the new rules. That's pretty much > automatically going to be slower than getting a longer NID approved > (since it involves two passes through the IESG). Theoretically, > there could be some parallel processing, but realistically it will be > slower. The big reason it will be slower is that it is not entirely > clear how to create a process that allows the IETF/IANA to be assured > that a NID request comes from *the part of an individual government* > that should be assigned the NID. Since governments vary considerably > in their structure, we cannot simply say: "A request from the > government's CIO or equivalent to assign will be honored". In some > cases, there will be no such office; in others, the request might > most appropriately come from a governmental office charged with > library services (e.g. the U.S. Library of Congress). There are also > codes like AQ (for Antarctica) which are assigned but for which > identifying a single governmental entity as responsible is > difficult, and codes which ISO has re-assigned after the passage of > time (like SK). We would also have to deal with situations like > yours in which there is an assigned code (GB) and an exceptionally > reserved one (UK). Writing that document and getting agreement on it > is unlikely to be quick, and none of this is, honestly, in the IETF's > core area of concern or competence. That also makes things slow. If > you have no particular time constraints and have the energy to put > into proposals here, it may be possible to resolve this. But I do > believe it will be relatively slow to complete. regards, Ted Hardie > > > > At 10:59 AM -0700 5/20/08, Andy Greener wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I recently joined this list so forgive me if this has been >> discussed before (I did check the archive at www.nabble.com but >> couldn't see anything of direct relevance recently). >> >> As my sig indicates I'm a technical consultant working for HM >> Revenue & Customs in the UK, and I'm also a member of a >> sub-committee of the UK CTO Council's Architecture Review Board >> that is considering the future of the UK GovTalk policies and >> standards web site (www.govtalk.gov.uk). As part of this work we >> are considering establishing a URN scheme for namespace naming of >> persistent artefacts (XML Schemas, code lists, etc) across the UK >> Government space, and naturally the subject of a "UK" NID came up. >> >> I note that RFC3406 states that all two-letter combinations are >> reserved for potential use as countrycode-based NIDs for eventual >> national registrations of URN namespaces, but it hints at another >> set of definition & scoping rules for such namespaces. I also note >> that there are no existing two-letter NIDs on the IANA list, but >> that at least one country (New Zealand) has already tackled this >> issue and worked around it by using their ISO three-letter code >> instead (not an option for us as the three-letter code for the UK >> is "GBR", which we feel is inappropriate under the circumstances, >> as well as being somewhat "politically incorrect"). >> >> Are we on a hiding to nothing if we wish to pursue the "UK" NID? >> The registration would be made on behalf of the UK Govt by the >> Govt's CTO, and it is unclear to me who else would have ultimate >> authority to formally request this particular NID if it's not the >> UK government. I expect I'm opening a can of worms here, but if you >> don't ask you don't get! I'd be grateful for any guidance or advice >> anyone can give me. >> >> The best qualifying alternative we can come up with is "UKGOV", but >> this is likely to be subsumed into any future "UK" NID anyway (not >> a desirable attribute for a supposedly persistent naming mechanism! >> - we'd like to do the "right" thing once, and for all). >> >> Andy >> >> -- Andy Greener Enterprise Architect Architecture Solutions & >> Assurance IMS Strategy & Architecture, HMRC >> >> andy.greener@hmrc.gsi.gov.uk / andy@gid.co.uk +44 7836 331933 >> >> >> >> >> Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:smime 1479.p7s ( / ) >> (007B1E4D) > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Reality: Yours to discover." -- ThinkingCat Leslie Daigle leslie@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- From urn-nid-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 3 07:52:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: urn-nid-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-urn-nid-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74FF3A691B; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:52:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: urn-nid@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: urn-nid@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91153A691B for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:52:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.477 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.477 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, J_CHICKENPOX_25=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS=2.077, WHOIS_MYPRIVREG=1.499] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hj7eJ7OH7HNK for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.abcsoftware.lv (mail.abcsoftware.lv [62.85.69.78]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8C8FA3A69CF for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:50:13 -0700 (PDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: UK NID? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1257" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:50:14 +0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <48452D9A.4010205@thinkingcat.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: UK NID? thread-index: AcjFbs6gXfTX1AhkQBCNOzWujFZUaQAGfK+w References: <352F4F60-571C-4782-95DB-88BF542D5338@gid.co.uk> <48452D9A.4010205@thinkingcat.com> From: =?windows-1257?Q?Jurijs_Kor=F2ijenko?= To: "Andy Greener" Cc: urn-nid@ietf.org, Lisa Dusseault , Leslie Daigle X-BeenThere: urn-nid@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: discussion of new namespace identifiers for URNs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: urn-nid-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: urn-nid-bounces@ietf.org Hello Andy, some time ago we registered namespace for Latvian government integration = project URN:IVIS - RFC4617. The purpose and usage of namespace is = similar - XML schemas, e-services and other artifacts identification = with URN number. Now we are planning to develop an IVIS URN resolve = infrastructure.=20 One suggestion: take a NID which is really politically and practically = acceptable by anyone, how far it is possible. Because in our case we = always have to answer to question - "Hey, IVIS, what is this and what = for?". UKGOV from my point of view looks good. Thank you, Juri. ------------------------------------- Dr.sc.ing. Jurijs Kornijenko SIA "ABC software" Mob. t=E2lr. +371 29176725 Ofisa t=E2lr. + 371 7082635 -----Original Message----- From: urn-nid-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:urn-nid-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Leslie Daigle Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:40 PM To: Andy Greener Cc: urn-nid@ietf.org; Lisa Dusseault Subject: Re: UK NID? Hi Andy, Ted is correct in that, given sufficient time and energy, just about anything is possible. I'd like to underscore, however, that the missing piece is not about your proposed URN namespace: to "get 'UK'", you would need to solve the whole problem, generally, for country code URNs. What I wrote, almost 3 years ago, when the discussion of NZ came up: [I wrote:] > There is no process defined to vet who represents which country for=20 > the purposes of URN NID registration, and until there is, there will > be no two letter country code NID registrations. >=20 > To counter that argument, solve ICANN's problems in ccTLD zone=20 > administration authority, and then come back :-) >=20 > Less obliquely, there is the very real probability that, for eg, a > national library could claim to be responsible for setting up > permanent identifiers for resources, while the national passport > office turned around and defined something entirely different. How > is the IETF/IANA to determine what authority within the country is > going to arbitrate between them? I hope you understand it is not a trivial problem to solve, and very little of it has to do with engineering. I can appreciate that "GBR" would not work for you; but I hope you can=20 find an alternate that will get you to a working URN namespace soon. Leslie. Ted Hardie wrote: > Hi Andy, I've cc'ed Leslie Daigle on this message, as she was quite=20 > heavily involved in both setting up the registration procedures and=20 > in working with New Zealand on arranging their NID. I've also cc'ed > Lisa Dusseault, who is the Area Director who currently processes most > URI-related drafts). The first question, at least from my > perspective, is what time frame do you need this in? The procedures > for getting a namespace identifier according to the current rules are > relatively clear cut and with sufficient coordination could probably > be done in a couple of months (get a draft written along the New > Zealand model, have it go through the required review by the urn-nid > list, approved by the IESG). The last step is the longest/least sure > since the IESG approves all IETF technical standards and many related > documents as well, so their calendar can get full. If you need it > relatively quickly, though, using the existing procedures is probably > the way to go. You're right that the 2-letter IDs were reserved in > 3406, with the following text: >=20 > NOTE: ALL two-letter combinations, and two-letter combinations=20 > followed by "-" and any sequence of valid NID characters are reserved > for potential use as countrycode-based NIDs for eventual national=20 > registrations of URN namespaces. The definition and scoping of rules > for allocation of responsibility for such namespaces is beyond the=20 > scope of this document. >=20 > To allocate a two-letter combination, the rules for the allocation > would have to be codified in an update to BCP33/RFC3406 and then a > document written that conformed to the new rules. That's pretty much > automatically going to be slower than getting a longer NID approved=20 > (since it involves two passes through the IESG). Theoretically, > there could be some parallel processing, but realistically it will be > slower. The big reason it will be slower is that it is not entirely > clear how to create a process that allows the IETF/IANA to be assured > that a NID request comes from *the part of an individual government* > that should be assigned the NID. Since governments vary considerably > in their structure, we cannot simply say: "A request from the > government's CIO or equivalent to assign will be honored". In some > cases, there will be no such office; in others, the request might > most appropriately come from a governmental office charged with > library services (e.g. the U.S. Library of Congress). There are also > codes like AQ (for Antarctica) which are assigned but for which > identifying a single governmental entity as responsible is > difficult, and codes which ISO has re-assigned after the passage of > time (like SK). We would also have to deal with situations like=20 > yours in which there is an assigned code (GB) and an exceptionally > reserved one (UK). Writing that document and getting agreement on it > is unlikely to be quick, and none of this is, honestly, in the IETF's > core area of concern or competence. That also makes things slow. If > you have no particular time constraints and have the energy to put=20 > into proposals here, it may be possible to resolve this. But I do > believe it will be relatively slow to complete. regards, Ted Hardie >=20 >=20 >=20 > At 10:59 AM -0700 5/20/08, Andy Greener wrote: >> Hello, >>=20 >> I recently joined this list so forgive me if this has been >> discussed before (I did check the archive at www.nabble.com but >> couldn't see anything of direct relevance recently). >>=20 >> As my sig indicates I'm a technical consultant working for HM >> Revenue & Customs in the UK, and I'm also a member of a >> sub-committee of the UK CTO Council's Architecture Review Board >> that is considering the future of the UK GovTalk policies and >> standards web site (www.govtalk.gov.uk). As part of this work we >> are considering establishing a URN scheme for namespace naming of >> persistent artefacts (XML Schemas, code lists, etc) across the UK >> Government space, and naturally the subject of a "UK" NID came up. >>=20 >> I note that RFC3406 states that all two-letter combinations are >> reserved for potential use as countrycode-based NIDs for eventual >> national registrations of URN namespaces, but it hints at another >> set of definition & scoping rules for such namespaces. I also note >> that there are no existing two-letter NIDs on the IANA list, but >> that at least one country (New Zealand) has already tackled this >> issue and worked around it by using their ISO three-letter code >> instead (not an option for us as the three-letter code for the UK >> is "GBR", which we feel is inappropriate under the circumstances, >> as well as being somewhat "politically incorrect"). >>=20 >> Are we on a hiding to nothing if we wish to pursue the "UK" NID? >> The registration would be made on behalf of the UK Govt by the >> Govt's CTO, and it is unclear to me who else would have ultimate >> authority to formally request this particular NID if it's not the >> UK government. I expect I'm opening a can of worms here, but if you >> don't ask you don't get! I'd be grateful for any guidance or advice >> anyone can give me. >>=20 >> The best qualifying alternative we can come up with is "UKGOV", but >> this is likely to be subsumed into any future "UK" NID anyway (not >> a desirable attribute for a supposedly persistent naming mechanism! >> - we'd like to do the "right" thing once, and for all). >>=20 >> Andy >>=20 >> -- Andy Greener Enterprise Architect Architecture Solutions & >> Assurance IMS Strategy & Architecture, HMRC >>=20 >> andy.greener@hmrc.gsi.gov.uk / andy@gid.co.uk +44 7836 331933 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:smime 1479.p7s ( / ) >> (007B1E4D) >=20 --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Reality: Yours to discover." -- ThinkingCat Leslie Daigle leslie@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- From jai@fujitsu.com Wed Jun 25 04:41:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-urn-nid-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-urn-nid-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4582B3A687F for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 04:41:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -72.658 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-72.658 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DYN_RDNS_AND_INLINE_IMAGE=0.001, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE=1, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_26=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_34=0.6, MY_CID_AND_STYLE=1.54, PART_CID_STOCK=1.635, PART_CID_STOCK_LESS=0.384, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_GIF_ATTACH=1.42, STOCK_IMG_HDR_FROM=0.001, STOCK_IMG_HTML=0.001, T_TVD_FW_GRAPHIC_ID1=0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RHKZ-bOGHNpv for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 04:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host86-134-93-231.range86-134.btcentralplus.com (host86-134-93-231.range86-134.btcentralplus.com [86.134.93.231]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83DD13A67E3 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 04:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:53:24 +0000 From: "gardener maia" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.99.27) UNREG X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <08217669.20080625114046@ietf.org> To: Subject: Fw: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="0D69699E360D9EC" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --0D69699E360D9EC Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1A5A552FAC1520D" --1A5A552FAC1520D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fill in your life with colors of fun! ber?hmte Tankas immer wieder ausgelegt, und ?ber den Sinn so mancher = Gedichte aus klassischer Zeit hat man sich bis heute nicht einig werden = k?nnen. Die Bl?tezeit der japanischen Lyrik liegt weit zur?ck. --1A5A552FAC1520D Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Fill in your life with colors of fun!

ber?hmte Tankas immer wieder ausgelegt, und ?ber den Sinn so mancher = Gedichte aus klassischer Zeit hat man sich bis heute nicht einig werden = k?nnen. Die Bl?tezeit der japanischen Lyrik liegt weit = zur?ck.

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