From missili@aixigo.de Sun Feb 1 10:20:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9418928C10C for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:20:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -32.834 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-32.834 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_VERIZON_P=2.144, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_VERIZON_POOL=1.495, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4MOLhBjlyFfs for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool-71-126-197-164.herntx.dsl-w.verizon.net (pool-71-126-197-164.herntx.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.126.197.164]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B7A5C28C119 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:20:23 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Customer Receipt/Purchase Confirmation From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090201182025.B7A5C28C119@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:20:23 -0800 (PST)
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From usefoufidw@sparker.net Sun Feb 1 10:40:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99CC928C11F for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:40:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -28.783 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-28.783 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_ALMOST_IP=1.889, FH_HOST_EQ_DYNAMICIP=2.177, GB_H_CANADIAN=0.5, GB_H_PHARMACY=1, GB_I_LETTER=-2, GB_PHARMACY=1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, HTML_EXTRA_CLOSE=2.809, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K+68OvOPv2ee for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:40:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from amerblind.outbound.ed10.com (83.Red-81-32-57.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net [81.32.57.83]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0F76328C135 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:40:27 -0800 (PST) Content-Return: allowed X-Mailer: devMail.Net (3.0.1854.22234-2) To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: RE: Canadian Pharmacy Message 36693 From: usefor-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20090201184028.0F76328C135@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:40:27 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Sun Feb 1 17:45:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81BE13A6866 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:45:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.466 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.466 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.133, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qot6weuLMOZf for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:45:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 048803A6804 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:45:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n121hiID013995 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:43:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n121hiXW013994; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:43:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp5.stanford.edu (smtp5.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.85]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n121hXFZ013984 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:43:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp5.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 5D7AE3B6969 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp5.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390713B65CE for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:43:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DA632E90CA; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:43:32 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: ISSUE 1583 status (was: Re: January: open issues on USEPRO) In-Reply-To: (Charles Lindsey's message of "Wed\, 28 Jan 2009 11\:41\:43 GMT") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.2 (gnu/linux) References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 17:43:32 -0800 Message-ID: <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" writes: > Harald Alvestrand writes: >> 1583 USEPRO LC 5.2.3: Checkgroups control messages >> Open. There may be multiple issues here. >> No discussion with "1583" in the subject. > I think we agreed that the present checkgroups message has a problem. The > draft introduces a new feature which addresses that problem, which will > work fine if checkgroups issuers use it, and it checkgroups receivers > recognise it. > But if it isn't used or recognised, then the original problem will > remain, and there is nothing much we can do about it. Therefore I think > no action is needed - the present wording is the best that can be done. There are four issues in this ticket. The first issue is that there's no method in the checkgroups syntax to delegate control over a newsgroup whose name matches the subhierarchy. I think we agreed that, yes, this is the case, and there's nothing we can really do about it at this stage and while still remaining backwards-compatible. The second issue was about whether there should be a maximum size of the serial number. I believe we decided that since you can compare serial numbers as strings, there wasn't a need to set a limit. The third issue is about what to do when a serial number is specified for a hierarchy and then a subsequent control message arrives without a serial number. The current document is silent on what to do in this situation. I think it should state what should be done. My sense of the previous discussion was that most people felt that such a checkgroups should be ignored, meaning that once an authorized control message sender starts issuing checkgroups with serial numbers, subsequent checkgroups for that hierarchy must always use serial numbers, which must always be larger than the previous serial number. I'm a little worried about this provision, since after long periods of time and a change of hierarchy administration it can be potentially difficult to uncover the previous serial number. But I don't see a good alternative that preserves the serial number semantics. The fourth issue is whether there should be a mechanism to reset the serial number. I think we decided that we weren't going to specify one. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Sun Feb 1 17:59:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA16C3A6866 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:59:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.474 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.474 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.125, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DEKRKqbCK9nm for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:59:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C053A67BD for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:59:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n121vfRT014375 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:57:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n121vfxB014374; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:57:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n121vUW1014349 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:57:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 77BBE51C672 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:57:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D7FA51C682 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:57:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C7543E90D9; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:57:29 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: [1586] Multiple POSTED in Path: header In-Reply-To: (Charles Lindsey's message of "Wed\, 28 Jan 2009 12\:56\:51 GMT") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.2 (gnu/linux) References: From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 17:57:29 -0800 Message-ID: <87ocxlbnxy.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" writes: > 3.4.1 of the present draft contains: > > A proto-article has the same format as a normal article except that the > Injection-Info and Xref header fields MUST NOT be present; the Path > header field SHOULD NOT contain a "POSTED" ; and any of > the following mandatory header fields MAY be omitted: Message-ID, Date, > and Path. In all other respects, a proto-article MUST be a valid Netnews > article. In particular, the header fields which may be omitted MUST NOT > be present with invalid content. > > That "SHOULD NOT" was formerly "MUST NOT", so it is an improvement. > > But I propose changing it to: > > .. the Path header field MAY contain a "POSTED" ; ... Since that is equivalent to saying nothing about the POSTED , were we to decide on this change, I think I would omit the sentence entirely and just add the note (with corresponding minor wording changes). Or even better, move the NOTE to a subsection of 3.2 that explains the meaning of a POSTED keyword and the circumstances under which a Path header could be constructed containing several of them. > and adding a NOTE such as the following: > > NOTE: Whereas the presence of two "POSTED" s will often > indicate a malicious attempt to disguise the true origin of an article, > it could also arise following some ususual gatewaying or injecting > scenario (taking advantage of the "MAY contain" above), in which case > it could be useful for detecting unintended loops or mismanaged > gateways. The whole intent of these humans in assessing unusual situations, and it would be unwise for > subsequent agents automatically to assume one possibility or the other. > > Essentially, I am arguing for not throwing away any information which might > be of subsequent diagnostic use, possibly at the expense of making people > think a bit before accusing posters of trollery. It is up to the "netkops" > to deal with these issues, and our draft should not try to prejudge their > efforts. The corresponding text in 3.4.2 is: In some cases, offering the same proto-article to all injecting agents may not be possible (such as when gatewaying, after injection, articles found on one Netnews network to another supposedly- unconnected one). In this case, the posting agent MUST remove any Xref header field and rename or remove any Injection-Info, Path, and other trace header field before passing it to another injecting agent. (This converts the article back into a proto-article.) Since multiple injection is the only means by which multiple POSTED can arise with their intended meaning and purpose, it seems pointless to relax the requirement too far in one area and not in the other. I think our options here are: 1. Treat the Path header as special and permit (or even encourage) retaining it while not permitting retention of the other trace headers, on the grounds that it has an intrinsic ordering and therefore isn't as prone to confusion as having multiple trace headers that aren't ordered. 2. Leave the existing wording, which requires multiple injection to remove or rename the Path header but allows readers to add spurious POSTED s by violating a SHOULD. I'm not entirely comfortable with it, but I can't think of any specific protocol harm it could cause. 3. Restore the MUST in the proto-article section to match the MUST in 3.4.2 and make the document consistent but possibly too strict. 4. Relax the MUST generally in 3.4.2, but then we will run into issues with Injection-Info, which the posting agent is not permitted to supply and which doesn't have an intrinsic ordering the way that the Path header does. The more I think about it, the more option 1 seems like a workable idea, but I think that's reversing some decisions that we made some time back. That makes me nervous at this stage of the process. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From melles@agt.net Sun Feb 1 23:57:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC9573A6936 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 23:57:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.719 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.719 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MWBDG4p4P3B6 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 23:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from 200-122-65-27.cab.prima.net.ar (200-122-65-27.cab.prima.net.ar [200.122.65.27]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6FBEB3A69D7 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 23:56:56 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: You've received an answer to your question From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090202075700.6FBEB3A69D7@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 23:56:56 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 2 00:13:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F38CD3A6940 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 00:13:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iE5e0NQ8Yp2o for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 00:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62A533A67EE for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 00:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n128Bmlm026002 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Feb 2009 01:11:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n128Bmnf026001; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 01:11:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from tertius.net.au (tertius.net.au [203.30.75.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n128BZuo025991 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 01:11:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from thorfinn@tertius.net.au) Received: from babble.peel.tertius.net.au (c220-237-62-48.smelb2.vic.optusnet.com.au [220.237.62.48]) by tertius.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE71A8080D0 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:11:32 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <2AFEDF3B-C597-496C-BE40-B784FF5E74A5@tertius.net.au> From: Thorfinn To: Usefor Mailing List In-Reply-To: <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status (was: Re: January: open issues on USEPRO) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:09:36 +1100 References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Discussion mostly occurred in late September 2008, under the subject line: ISSUE: Checkgroups control messages I can't remember whether we had issue numbers at that point, but for some reason the original subject line didn't, and nobody fixed it. I had something to say back then regarding sub-issues 2 and 4 below, and had nothing to say at that time about 1 and 3. On 2 Feb 2009, at 12:43, Russ Allbery wrote: > > "Charles Lindsey" writes: >> Harald Alvestrand writes: > >>> 1583 USEPRO LC 5.2.3: Checkgroups control messages >>> Open. There may be multiple issues here. >>> No discussion with "1583" in the subject. > >> I think we agreed that the present checkgroups message has a >> problem. The >> draft introduces a new feature which addresses that problem, which >> will >> work fine if checkgroups issuers use it, and it checkgroups receivers >> recognise it. > >> But if it isn't used or recognised, then the original problem will >> remain, and there is nothing much we can do about it. Therefore I >> think >> no action is needed - the present wording is the best that can be >> done. > > There are four issues in this ticket. > > The first issue is that there's no method in the checkgroups syntax to > delegate control over a newsgroup whose name matches the > subhierarchy. I > think we agreed that, yes, this is the case, and there's nothing we > can > really do about it at this stage and while still remaining > backwards-compatible. I think someone mentioned something about issuing the delegation in the parent checkgroups, but I don't recall the details. > The second issue was about whether there should be a maximum size of > the > serial number. I believe we decided that since you can compare serial > numbers as strings, there wasn't a need to set a limit. Yes. Specifically, if you skip any leading zeros, then compare string length, then asciibetically compare if strings are the same length, you have an ordered integer comparison method, with no need to actually use an integer representation at any point. Given the infrequency of checkgroups, the relative inefficiency of this comparison vs integer comparisons is a total non issue. > The third issue is about what to do when a serial number is > specified for > a hierarchy and then a subsequent control message arrives without a > serial > number. The current document is silent on what to do in this > situation. > I think it should state what should be done. My sense of the previous > discussion was that most people felt that such a checkgroups should be > ignored, meaning that once an authorized control message sender starts > issuing checkgroups with serial numbers, subsequent checkgroups for > that > hierarchy must always use serial numbers, which must always be > larger than > the previous serial number. I'm a little worried about this > provision, > since after long periods of time and a change of hierarchy > administration > it can be potentially difficult to uncover the previous serial number. > But I don't see a good alternative that preserves the serial number > semantics. I don't see any way to do that. I think it's a reasonable assumption that if you can't find a serial number anywhere, including by posting in newsgroups and asking newsmasters for what their latest one is, then it has probably become irrelevant. After all, if nobody at all knows what their latest checkgroups serial number is, then they can't be able to compare with it. This seems like an "unlikely to be a problem" situation to me. I think we should explicitly say that once you have gone to serial numbers, there is no way back to having no serial numbers. > The fourth issue is whether there should be a mechanism to reset the > serial number. I think we decided that we weren't going to specify > one. Yes, I believe we should not specify one - there is no good way to specify a reset, and combined with the ability to simply continue incrementing into integer infinity, there is no need for a reset. The closest thing was my suggestion that we could use the DNS serial number mechanism of sequence space arithmetic (i.e. a wrap-around - see DNS RFCs or the original discussion in september for details if needed), but I believe that that is more problematic than simply allowing incrementing into infinity. Ook, Thorf -- thorfinn@tertius.net.au The world is coming to an end. Please log off. -- BSD fortune file From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 2 04:14:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D248628C118 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 04:14:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.447, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5dN0p2dHwIYR for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 04:14:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 307C53A67D0 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 04:14:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n12CCvsf037214 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Feb 2009 05:12:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n12CCvTJ037213; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 05:12:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net [79.135.125.41]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n12CCkbM037192 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 05:12:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster$pop3#clerew#man*ac^uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4986e31a.a80.207 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:12:10 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n12CC20r011440 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:12:07 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n12CC1cB011437 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:12:01 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24981 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status (was: Re: January: open issues on USEPRO) Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:11:38 GMT Lines: 41 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery writes: >There are four issues in this ticket. But it seems that the third is the only one where we might take any further action. >The third issue is about what to do when a serial number is specified for >a hierarchy and then a subsequent control message arrives without a serial >number. The current document is silent on what to do in this situation. >I think it should state what should be done. My sense of the previous >discussion was that most people felt that such a checkgroups should be >ignored, meaning that once an authorized control message sender starts >issuing checkgroups with serial numbers, subsequent checkgroups for that >hierarchy must always use serial numbers, which must always be larger than >the previous serial number. I'm a little worried about this provision, >since after long periods of time and a change of hierarchy administration >it can be potentially difficult to uncover the previous serial number. >But I don't see a good alternative that preserves the serial number >semantics. I am slightly worried about being too specific here, for the reason you mention. Perhaps some wording to the effect that newsadmins should think carefully before accepting such a checkgroups (and in any case, blind automatic acceptance of checkgroups has never been a recommended practice). I wouldn't want to say anything stronger than that, and would be happy to leave it as it stands. So by all means suggest a wording if you like, or else let it be. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From kjweinbrecht@accredhome.com Mon Feb 2 05:03:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D83A428C1C1 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 05:03:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.46 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.46 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HOST_EQ_DHCP=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0xOCvEEQ9w-T for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 05:03:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from fl-67-239-18-183.dhcp.embarqhsd.net (fl-67-239-18-183.dhcp.embarqhsd.net [67.239.18.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 06A5828C1DC for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 05:03:36 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Hi From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090202130338.06A5828C1DC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 05:03:36 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 2 09:17:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F183A69FB for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:17:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.481 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.481 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.118, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JZ5jInK-BcrE for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:17:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EC9E3A6BAC for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:17:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n12HEgU5056687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:14:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n12HEgoJ056686; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:14:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n12HEVdp056671 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:14:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 1B71151C581 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:14:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCEF251C604 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6F62CEA133; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:14:30 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status In-Reply-To: (Charles Lindsey's message of "Mon\, 2 Feb 2009 12\:11\:38 GMT") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.2 (gnu/linux) References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 09:14:30 -0800 Message-ID: <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" writes: > Russ Allbery writes: >> The third issue is about what to do when a serial number is specified >> for a hierarchy and then a subsequent control message arrives without a >> serial number. The current document is silent on what to do in this >> situation. I think it should state what should be done. My sense of >> the previous discussion was that most people felt that such a >> checkgroups should be ignored, meaning that once an authorized control >> message sender starts issuing checkgroups with serial numbers, >> subsequent checkgroups for that hierarchy must always use serial >> numbers, which must always be larger than the previous serial number. >> I'm a little worried about this provision, since after long periods of >> time and a change of hierarchy administration it can be potentially >> difficult to uncover the previous serial number. But I don't see a >> good alternative that preserves the serial number semantics. > I am slightly worried about being too specific here, for the reason you > mention. Perhaps some wording to the effect that newsadmins should think > carefully before accepting such a checkgroups (and in any case, blind > automatic acceptance of checkgroups has never been a recommended > practice). I wouldn't want to say anything stronger than that, and would > be happy to leave it as it stands. > So by all means suggest a wording if you like, or else let it be. Here's proposed wording, which uses SHOULD rather than MUST for the honoring side to leave wiggle room for things like a lost serial number. --- usepro.xml (revision 5620) +++ usepro.xml (working copy) @@ -1953,12 +1953,14 @@ The <chksernr> argument may be any positive integer. If present, it MUST increase with every change to the newsgroup - list and MUST NOT ever decrease. If provided, news servers - SHOULD remember the <chksernr> value of the previous - checkgroups control message honored for a particular hierarchy - or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any subsequent checkgroups - control message for the same hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a - smaller <chksernr> value. + list, MUST NOT ever decrease, and MUST be included in all + subsequent checkgroups control messages with the same scope. + If provided, news servers SHOULD remember the <chksernr> + value of the previous checkgroups control message honored for a + particular hierarchy or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any + subsequent checkgroups control message for the same hierarchy + or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no + <chksernr> value.
For example, the following Control header -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 2 10:34:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5252428C1CA for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:34:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.155 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.155 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=0.044, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JbYrKQT8BOHt for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E84C3A68CC for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n12IWvaw060862 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:32:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n12IWv1K060861; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:32:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net [79.135.125.41]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n12IWjw1060848 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:32:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster*pop3$clerew&man&ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 49872961.abb.365 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 17:12:01 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n12HC2H1000761 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 17:12:02 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n12HC2GS000758 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 17:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24983 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: [1586] Multiple POSTED in Path: header Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <87ocxlbnxy.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:25:55 GMT Lines: 114 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <87ocxlbnxy.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery writes: >"Charles Lindsey" writes: >> 3.4.1 of the present draft contains: >> >> A proto-article has the same format as a normal article except that the >> Injection-Info and Xref header fields MUST NOT be present; the Path >> header field SHOULD NOT contain a "POSTED" ; and any of >> the following mandatory header fields MAY be omitted: Message-ID, Date, >> and Path. In all other respects, a proto-article MUST be a valid Netnews >> article. In particular, the header fields which may be omitted MUST NOT >> be present with invalid content. >> >> That "SHOULD NOT" was formerly "MUST NOT", so it is an improvement. >> >> But I propose changing it to: >> >> .. the Path header field MAY contain a "POSTED" ; ... >Since that is equivalent to saying nothing about the POSTED >, were we to decide on this change, I think I would omit the >sentence entirely and just add the note (with corresponding minor wording >changes). Or even better, move the NOTE to a subsection of 3.2 that >explains the meaning of a POSTED keyword and the circumstances under which >a Path header could be constructed containing several of them. Sure. >> and adding a NOTE such as the following: >> >> NOTE: Whereas the presence of two "POSTED" s will often >> indicate a malicious attempt to disguise the true origin of an article, >> it could also arise following some ususual gatewaying or injecting >> scenario (taking advantage of the "MAY contain" above), in which case >> it could be useful for detecting unintended loops or mismanaged >> gateways. The whole intent of these > humans in assessing unusual situations, and it would be unwise for >> subsequent agents automatically to assume one possibility or the other. >> >> Essentially, I am arguing for not throwing away any information which might >> be of subsequent diagnostic use, possibly at the expense of making people >> think a bit before accusing posters of trollery. It is up to the "netkops" >> to deal with these issues, and our draft should not try to prejudge their >> efforts. >The corresponding text in 3.4.2 is: > In some cases, offering the same proto-article to all injecting > agents may not be possible (such as when gatewaying, after injection, > articles found on one Netnews network to another supposedly- > unconnected one). In this case, the posting agent MUST remove any > Xref header field and rename or remove any Injection-Info, Path, and > other trace header field before passing it to another injecting > agent. (This converts the article back into a proto-article.) >Since multiple injection is the only means by which multiple POSTED > can arise with their intended meaning and purpose, it >seems pointless to relax the requirement too far in one area and not in >the other. Agreed. I think that MUST is a bit too strong as regards the Path header. Indeed, it violates 2119 insofar as the protocol does not actually break if is it not done - same for Xref for that matter, so it is more a matter of what constitutes Good Practice. But failing to remove/rename Injection-Info and other tracers would be a more serious matter, because it would then be telling an untruth, so the MUST is indeed needed there. >I think our options here are: >1. Treat the Path header as special and permit (or even encourage) > retaining it while not permitting retention of the other trace headers, > on the grounds that it has an intrinsic ordering and therefore isn't as > prone to confusion as having multiple trace headers that aren't > ordered. Yes, I think I like that. >2. Leave the existing wording, which requires multiple injection to remove > or rename the Path header but allows readers to add spurious POSTED > s by violating a SHOULD. I'm not entirely comfortable > with it, but I can't think of any specific protocol harm it could > cause. >3. Restore the MUST in the proto-article section to match the MUST in > 3.4.2 and make the document consistent but possibly too strict. That would be to increase violation of 2119, which is why we demoted it before. >4. Relax the MUST generally in 3.4.2, but then we will run into issues > with Injection-Info, which the posting agent is not permitted to supply > and which doesn't have an intrinsic ordering the way that the Path > header does. That seems to agree with my remark concerning Injection-Info above, so I think we agree that bit remains a MUST. >The more I think about it, the more option 1 seems like a workable idea, >but I think that's reversing some decisions that we made some time back. >That makes me nervous at this stage of the process. +1 -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From nuno.nuneskzjf@allianz.pt Mon Feb 2 13:14:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA8A13A68EC for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 13:14:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.262 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.262 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vBB-Uy21FKRH for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 13:14:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ambrosi.com (unknown [78.139.144.189]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C41B73A68C2 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 13:14:34 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Hi From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090202211437.C41B73A68C2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 13:14:34 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 2 18:48:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 919943A67A3 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:48:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.488 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.488 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.111, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aFfjDFxugUdp for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:48:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579533A6959 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:48:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n132kjmu085186 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:46:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n132kjZt085185; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:46:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n132kY5B085176 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:46:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id E5B1451C581 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:46:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C019E51C56C for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:46:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 80B34E7BB2; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:46:33 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: [1586] Multiple POSTED in Path: header In-Reply-To: (Charles Lindsey's message of "Mon\, 2 Feb 2009 12\:25\:55 GMT") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.2 (gnu/linux) References: <87ocxlbnxy.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 18:46:33 -0800 Message-ID: <87k588dypi.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" writes: > Russ Allbery writes: >> Since multiple injection is the only means by which multiple POSTED >> can arise with their intended meaning and purpose, it >> seems pointless to relax the requirement too far in one area and not in >> the other. > Agreed. I think that MUST is a bit too strong as regards the Path > header. Indeed, it violates 2119 insofar as the protocol does not > actually break if is it not done - same for Xref for that matter, so it > is more a matter of what constitutes Good Practice. If you include Xref in an NNTP POST to an INN server, the article will be rejected. That's why I made it a MUST; the protocol does actually break in practice if you don't strip Xref. (Whether it *should* is a separate question, of course, but there's a huge installed base that behaves that way.) I agree that current servers do not reject posts that contain a POSTED . >> I think our options here are: > >> 1. Treat the Path header as special and permit (or even encourage) >> retaining it while not permitting retention of the other trace headers, >> on the grounds that it has an intrinsic ordering and therefore isn't as >> prone to confusion as having multiple trace headers that aren't >> ordered. > Yes, I think I like that. If we want to move forward with this, I think I could use some help analyzing what needs to change in the document to make it consistent again with this new approach. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From krissitin@adventinc.com Mon Feb 2 20:22:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B518E3A6BDF for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:22:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.167 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.167 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KhLzy1zuJnuo for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:22:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from amchk.com (unknown [116.50.178.131]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9F92E3A6A48 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:22:07 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Invoice from itunes.com From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090203042207.9F92E3A6A48@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:22:07 -0800 (PST)
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From muellervveeetzcag@agrinvest.gr Tue Feb 3 01:25:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2CB3A69D8 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 01:25:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -43.762 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-43.762 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2RiU1Y63yElQ for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 01:25:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp3925.kitakyushu02.bbiq.jp (ppp3925.kitakyushu02.bbiq.jp [58.3.169.115]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 109B93A68D8 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 01:25:05 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: You've received an answer to your question From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090203092506.109B93A68D8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 01:25:05 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Feb 3 04:23:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0660C3A695D for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 04:23:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9ti6Vf-QV+Cn for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 04:23:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0DC83A68FF for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 04:23:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n13CLWQL011389 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Feb 2009 05:21:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n13CLW6r011388; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 05:21:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n13CLKWr011377 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 05:21:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A05D239E3F1; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:21:19 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nTHuXYX5nC3q; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:21:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from hta-warp.trd.corp.google.com (unknown [195.18.164.170]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D65139E26D; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:21:19 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <498836BE.1080709@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 13:21:18 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Russ Allbery CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Russ Allbery wrote: > Here's proposed wording, which uses SHOULD rather than MUST for the > honoring side to leave wiggle room for things like a lost serial number. > > --- usepro.xml (revision 5620) > +++ usepro.xml (working copy) > @@ -1953,12 +1953,14 @@ > > The <chksernr> argument may be any positive integer. If > present, it MUST increase with every change to the newsgroup > - list and MUST NOT ever decrease. If provided, news servers > - SHOULD remember the <chksernr> value of the previous > - checkgroups control message honored for a particular hierarchy > - or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any subsequent checkgroups > - control message for the same hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a > - smaller <chksernr> value. > + list, MUST NOT ever decrease, and MUST be included in all > + subsequent checkgroups control messages with the same scope. > + If provided, news servers SHOULD remember the <chksernr> > + value of the previous checkgroups control message honored for a > + particular hierarchy or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any > + subsequent checkgroups control message for the same hierarchy > + or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no > + <chksernr> value. > >
> For example, the following Control header > > I'm not very worried about this issue, but this seems fine with me. (couldn't find the change to the text surrounding the SHOULD, but I think the SHOULD leaves wiggle room enough for the case where weird stuff has happened.) Harald From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Feb 3 04:29:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD5FB3A6A9C for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 04:29:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NN29+0tjzp8C for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 04:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822F33A695D for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 04:29:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n13CRrMF011730 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Feb 2009 05:27:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n13CRrpT011729; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 05:27:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n13CRq8l011723 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 05:27:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ECBD39E3F1; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:27:52 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c6o4ucdV8A0Y; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:27:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from hta-warp.trd.corp.google.com (unknown [195.18.164.170]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3E9739E26D; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:27:51 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <49883847.3080601@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 13:27:51 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Lindsey CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: [1586] Multiple POSTED in Path: header References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Charles Lindsey wrote: > 3.4.1 of the present draft contains: > > A proto-article has the same format as a normal article except that > the Injection-Info and Xref header fields MUST NOT be present; the > Path header field SHOULD NOT contain a "POSTED" ; and > any of the following mandatory header fields MAY be omitted: > Message-ID, Date, and Path. In all other respects, a proto-article > MUST be a valid Netnews article. In particular, the header fields > which may be omitted MUST NOT be present with invalid content. > > That "SHOULD NOT" was formerly "MUST NOT", so it is an improvement. > > But I propose changing it to: > > .. the Path header field MAY contain a "POSTED" ; ... > > and adding a NOTE such as the following: > > NOTE: Whereas the presence of two "POSTED" s will often > indicate a malicious attempt to disguise the true origin of an article, > it could also arise following some ususual gatewaying or injecting > scenario (taking advantage of the "MAY contain" above), in which case > it could be useful for detecting unintended loops or mismanaged > gateways. The whole intent of these humans in assessing unusual situations, and it would be unwise for > subsequent agents automatically to assume one possibility or the other. > > Essentially, I am arguing for not throwing away any information which might > be of subsequent diagnostic use, possibly at the expense of making people > think a bit before accusing posters of trollery. It is up to the "netkops" > to deal with these issues, and our draft should not try to prejudge their > efforts. > I disagree with this idea, and think we should keep the SHOULD NOT. Not throwing away information can be accomplished by tricks like Old-Path:. As the proposed note effectively says, saying that multiple POSTs are generally acceptable is an invitation to the script kiddies to play with it. Harald From jasonperkins@allagash.com Tue Feb 3 13:03:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE12E3A6AEA for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:03:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -25.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-25.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ADFjVyRC4EQ6 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:03:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-11-203-89.gnace704.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (189-11-203-89.gnace704.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [189.11.203.89]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D59E3A6A1D for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:03:21 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Sales Order from walmart.com From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090203210322.0D59E3A6A1D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:03:21 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Feb 3 18:47:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD293A68F4 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 18:47:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.494 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.494 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.105, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vjZig+BkV9+J for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 18:47:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE653A68CB for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 18:47:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n142k8T4053143 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Feb 2009 19:46:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n142k85x053142; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 19:46:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n142jw9m053134 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 19:46:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id C5BEB51CD06 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 18:45:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC0451C7AD for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 18:45:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4F217E80B4; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 18:45:57 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status In-Reply-To: <498836BE.1080709@alvestrand.no> (Harald Alvestrand's message of "Tue\, 03 Feb 2009 13\:21\:18 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.2 (gnu/linux) References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <498836BE.1080709@alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 18:45:57 -0800 Message-ID: <87k586or6i.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Harald Alvestrand writes: > Russ Allbery wrote: >> Here's proposed wording, which uses SHOULD rather than MUST for the >> honoring side to leave wiggle room for things like a lost serial >> number. >> >> --- usepro.xml (revision 5620) >> +++ usepro.xml (working copy) >> @@ -1953,12 +1953,14 @@ >> The <chksernr> argument may be any positive integer. >> If >> present, it MUST increase with every change to the newsgroup >> - list and MUST NOT ever decrease. If provided, news servers >> - SHOULD remember the <chksernr> value of the previous >> - checkgroups control message honored for a particular hierarchy >> - or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any subsequent checkgroups >> - control message for the same hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a >> - smaller <chksernr> value. >> + list, MUST NOT ever decrease, and MUST be included in all >> + subsequent checkgroups control messages with the same scope. >> + If provided, news servers SHOULD remember the <chksernr> >> + value of the previous checkgroups control message honored for a >> + particular hierarchy or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any >> + subsequent checkgroups control message for the same hierarchy >> + or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no >> + <chksernr> value. >>
>> For example, the following Control header > I'm not very worried about this issue, but this seems fine with me. > (couldn't find the change to the text surrounding the SHOULD, but I > think the SHOULD leaves wiggle room enough for the case where weird > stuff has happened.) Does anyone have any objections? If not, I'll go ahead and commit this. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Feb 4 04:14:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB8B28C157 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 04:14:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.430, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eAQuBNPD6u1z for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 04:14:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687B03A6A92 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 04:14:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n14CCLPY077665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n14CCLEL077664; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net [79.135.125.41]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n14CCIip077634 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster^pop3&clerew*man*ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 49898623.b55.2c7 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:19 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n14CC9UV021043 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:09 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n14CC9sC021040 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:09 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24991 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:02:56 GMT Lines: 40 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery writes: > > The <chksernr> argument may be any positive integer. If > present, it MUST increase with every change to the newsgroup >- list and MUST NOT ever decrease. If provided, news servers >- SHOULD remember the <chksernr> value of the previous >- checkgroups control message honored for a particular hierarchy >- or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any subsequent checkgroups >- control message for the same hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a >- smaller <chksernr> value. >+ list, MUST NOT ever decrease, and MUST be included in all >+ subsequent checkgroups control messages with the same scope. >+ If provided, news servers SHOULD remember the <chksernr> >+ value of the previous checkgroups control message honored for a >+ particular hierarchy or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any >+ subsequent checkgroups control message for the same hierarchy >+ or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no >+ <chksernr> value. A touch too strong for my liking. Perhaps "... and report for human evaluation any subsequent checkgroups control message for the same hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no <chksernr> value.". But even that seems to suggest that valid chechgroups should be accepted on "auto-pilot", which is probably not a good idea. But I am not pressing this too strongly if others are happy. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Feb 4 04:28:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE8828C1D0 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 04:28:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.189 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.410, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uDzUF4yqjlXc for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 04:28:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D75928C180 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 04:28:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n14CCLKc077663 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n14CCLwZ077662; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net [79.135.125.41]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n14CC9rQ077617 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster#pop3^clerew^man$ac^uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4989861a.7e92.33a for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:10 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n14CC8DJ021027 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:08 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n14CC2Ir021018 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24989 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: [1586] Multiple POSTED in Path: header Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <87ocxlbnxy.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <87k588dypi.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:38:14 GMT Lines: 42 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <87k588dypi.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery writes: >"Charles Lindsey" writes: >If you include Xref in an NNTP POST to an INN server, the article will be >rejected. That's why I made it a MUST; the protocol does actually break >in practice if you don't strip Xref. (Whether it *should* is a separate >question, of course, but there's a huge installed base that behaves that >way.) You surprise me. I had always assumed that Xref was only meaningful for a particular server and the clients that used it, and that if ever it received an already-present Xref (from whatever source) it would simply discard it and substitute its own. But if it is as you say, then I suppose that MUST has to remain (otherwise, SHOULD would have sufficed). >>> 1. Treat the Path header as special and permit (or even encourage) >>> retaining it while not permitting retention of the other trace headers, >>> on the grounds that it has an intrinsic ordering and therefore isn't as >>> prone to confusion as having multiple trace headers that aren't >>> ordered. >> Yes, I think I like that. >If we want to move forward with this, I think I could use some help >analyzing what needs to change in the document to make it consistent again >with this new approach. Sure. If we agree on the effects we want to achieve, then I am due for a careful read through the whole document to see what final inconsistencies might be lurking there, -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Feb 4 04:28:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3FD928C180 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 04:28:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.207 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.207 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.392, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id osEA81MlrL1Z for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 04:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF39528C157 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 04:28:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n14CCYF1077705 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n14CCYXv077704; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net [79.135.125.43]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n14CCND3077674 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster*pop3#clerew&man&ac&uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 49898621.1b7c.1f4 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:17 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n14CC8wv021035 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:09 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n14CC8xZ021032 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:08 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24990 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: [1586] Multiple POSTED in Path: header Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <49883847.3080601@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:47:39 GMT Lines: 44 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <49883847.3080601@alvestrand.no> Harald Alvestrand writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> >> NOTE: Whereas the presence of two "POSTED" s will often >> indicate a malicious attempt to disguise the true origin of an article, >> it could also arise following some ususual gatewaying or injecting >> scenario (taking advantage of the "MAY contain" above), in which case >> it could be useful for detecting unintended loops or mismanaged >> gateways. The whole intent of these > humans in assessing unusual situations, and it would be unwise for >> subsequent agents automatically to assume one possibility or the other. >> >I disagree with this idea, and think we should keep the SHOULD NOT. >Not throwing away information can be accomplished by tricks like >Old-Path:. As the proposed note effectively says, saying that multiple >POSTs are generally acceptable is an invitation to the script kiddies to >play with it. If the script kiddies try it, they will get caught out because two POSTEDs will then be present and any suspicion of trollery will be confirmed. But in the case of some carefully crafted Gatewaying scheme, or, worse, in the case of some broken Gatewaying scheme that ought to be spotted, destroying the evidence will do harm. And I doubt people will want to bother with Old-Post hacks. There are plenty of Netkops around who will gleefully denounce the trolls, and plenty of experienced newsadmins who will notice indications of broken Gatewaying (especially if consistently repeated) and quietly warn those causing it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 13 08:46:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BC7F28C256 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:46:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gf7ZS-tSHtNj for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617543A6D45 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DGj67c085057 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:45:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n1DGj6n0085056; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:45:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DGj4Gr085050 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:45:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDEFD39E394; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:45:03 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IoAm4-7hrjfl; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:45:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.198] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45E4739E2C0; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:45:03 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4995A38E.3000103@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:45:02 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Lindsey CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Charles Lindsey wrote: > In <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery writes: > > >> The <chksernr> argument may be any positive integer. If >> present, it MUST increase with every change to the newsgroup >> - list and MUST NOT ever decrease. If provided, news servers >> - SHOULD remember the <chksernr> value of the previous >> - checkgroups control message honored for a particular hierarchy >> - or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any subsequent checkgroups >> - control message for the same hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a >> - smaller <chksernr> value. >> + list, MUST NOT ever decrease, and MUST be included in all >> + subsequent checkgroups control messages with the same scope. >> + If provided, news servers SHOULD remember the <chksernr> >> + value of the previous checkgroups control message honored for a >> + particular hierarchy or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any >> + subsequent checkgroups control message for the same hierarchy >> + or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no >> + <chksernr> value. >> > > A touch too strong for my liking. Perhaps "... and report for human > evaluation any subsequent checkgroups control message for the same > hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no > <chksernr> value.". > > But even that seems to suggest that valid chechgroups should be accepted > on "auto-pilot", which is probably not a good idea. > > But I am not pressing this too strongly if others are happy. > So far, Russ and I are happy, and the rest of the list are silent, so you're a minority. Let's finish this one. From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 13 09:33:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74CBA3A6D8C for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:33:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kZgwVGj49InN for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:33:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C34A28C134 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:33:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DHW66u087638 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:32:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n1DHW6x9087637; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:32:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from denver.dinauz.org (dinauz.org [91.121.67.5]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DHVtAw087623 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:32:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by denver.dinauz.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750E62169 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:31:53 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at dinauz.org Received: from denver.dinauz.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dinauz.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ldgyze2RPKJk for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:31:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from Iulius (AAubervilliers-151-1-10-54.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr [83.114.9.54]) by denver.dinauz.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E8A4B1FCC for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:31:52 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4995A38E.3000103@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <4995A38E.3000103@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:31:38 +0100 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi Harald, > So far, Russ and I are happy, and the rest of the list are silent, so you're a minority. Let's finish this one. I also agree with that change (always including serial numbers once a checkgroups has used them). Shouldn't we add that serials should be compared as a string and not as a number owing to their not being limited in size? A note to future implementors would be useful. I also wonder whether we should not change (or add?) the current example - Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #248 + Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 to show a preferred way to use serial numbers. It would be convenient for checkgroups senders not not worry much about the previous number used. -- Julien ÉLIE « J'aime le travail, je passerais des heures à le regarder. » From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 13 12:53:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33AE13A6B76 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:53:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DQllkpidlae6 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B936D3A6807 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:53:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DKqMgP095219 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:52:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n1DKqMb1095218; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:52:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp5.stanford.edu (smtp5.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.85]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DKqBDw095211 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:52:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp5.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 3B0B93B6777 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp5.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D1833B67E3 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E2E9B583E7; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:52:10 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: rra@stanford.edu Subject: Commit in docs/usefor (usepro.xml) User-Agent: svnlog/1.14 Message-Id: <20090213205210.E2E9B583E7@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:52:10 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Date: Friday, February 13, 2009 @ 12:52:09 Author: eagle Revision: 5725 Apply fix for 1583: specify behavior when a serial number was included and then is left off a subsequent checkgroups and require that, once serial numbers begin to be used, they continue to be used. Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml =================================================================== --- docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-02-13 19:19:53 UTC (rev 5724) +++ docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-02-13 20:52:09 UTC (rev 5725) @@ -1953,12 +1953,14 @@ The <chksernr> argument may be any positive integer. If present, it MUST increase with every change to the newsgroup - list and MUST NOT ever decrease. If provided, news servers - SHOULD remember the <chksernr> value of the previous - checkgroups control message honored for a particular hierarchy - or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any subsequent checkgroups - control message for the same hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a - smaller <chksernr> value. + list, MUST NOT ever decrease, and MUST be included in all + subsequent checkgroups control messages with the same scope. + If provided, news servers SHOULD remember the <chksernr> + value of the previous checkgroups control message honored for a + particular hierarchy or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any + subsequent checkgroups control message for the same hierarchy + or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no + <chksernr> value.
For example, the following Control header From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Fri Feb 13 14:45:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 265CF3A6C4D for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:45:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ClmbhMv0ZEye for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:45:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB5853A6852 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:45:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DMhsd7099157 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:43:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n1DMhsgx099156; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:43:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp5.stanford.edu (smtp5.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.85]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DMhrCI099150 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:43:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp5.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id EEB8C3B69F3 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp5.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3D43B69C7 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AB7D3E8648; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:43:52 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status In-Reply-To: ("Julien =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9LIE=22's?= message of "Fri\, 13 Feb 2009 18\:31\:38 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.2 (gnu/linux) References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4995A38E.3000103@alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:43:52 -0800 Message-ID: <873aeix8if.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Julien =C9LIE writes: > Shouldn't we add that serials should be compared as a string and not as > a number owing to their not being limited in size? A note to future > implementors would be useful. I also wonder whether we should not > change (or add?) the current example > > - Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #248 > + Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 > > to show a preferred way to use serial numbers. It would be convenient > for checkgroups senders not not worry much about the previous number > used. How does this patch look to everyone? Index: usepro.xml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --- usepro.xml (revision 5725) +++ usepro.xml (working copy) @@ -1962,19 +1962,28 @@ or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no <chksernr> value. =20 + There is no upper limit on the length of <chksernr> + other than the limitation on the length of header fields. + Implementations may therefore want to do comparisons by + zero-padding the shorter of two <chksernr> values on the + left and then doing a string comparison rather than assuming + <chksernr> can be manipulated as a number. +
For example, the following Control header field =20 - Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #248 + Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 =20 indicates the body of the message will list every newsgroup in the de.* hierarchy, excepting the de.alt.* sub-hierarchy, and should not be honored if a checkgroups - control message with a serial number greater than 248 was - previously honored. + control message with a serial number greater than 2009021301 + was previously honored. The serial number in this example + was formed from the date in YYYYMMDD format followed by a + two-digit sequence number within that date.
=20 The body of the message is an entity of type --=20 Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Sat Feb 14 01:50:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA563A6A6D for ; Sat, 14 Feb 2009 01:50:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.208, BAYES_40=-0.185, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PJ-VtycKAnHT for ; Sat, 14 Feb 2009 01:50:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 725C53A69F7 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 2009 01:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1E9mST4018578 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:48:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n1E9mSNt018577; Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:48:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from denver.dinauz.org (dinauz.org [91.121.67.5]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1E9mGRx018569 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:48:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by denver.dinauz.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52D69604 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 2009 10:48:15 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at dinauz.org Received: from denver.dinauz.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dinauz.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VMu8I-zmbQqd for ; Sat, 14 Feb 2009 10:48:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from Iulius (AAubervilliers-151-1-10-54.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr [83.114.9.54]) by denver.dinauz.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0DDBE3C0 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 2009 10:48:15 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <467D5E20BBD14A5B97449A29C5D1C311@Iulius> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4995A38E.3000103@alvestrand.no> <873aeix8if.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <873aeix8if.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 10:47:59 +0100 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi Russ, > How does this patch look to everyone? It sounds great to me. Clear and precise. Thanks! -- Julien ÉLIE « La vraie paresse, c'est de se lever à 6 heures du matin pour avoir plus longtemps à ne rien faire. » (Tristan Bernard) From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Feb 16 04:14:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314183A694A for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 04:14:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zQZviEiVXL4v for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 04:14:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (properopus-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f04:392::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 835EC3A6B21 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 04:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1GCCU68018540 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:12:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n1GCCUfN018539; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:12:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net [79.135.125.43]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1GCCI7d018510 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:12:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster&pop3$clerew$man#ac*uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 49995821.2947.562 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 12:12:17 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n1GCC3Hn007866 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 12:12:03 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n1GCC2d5007863 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 12:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24997 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4995A38E.3000103@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:57:20 GMT Lines: 29 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <4995A38E.3000103@alvestrand.no> Harald Alvestrand writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> A touch too strong for my liking. Perhaps "... and report for human >> evaluation any subsequent checkgroups control message for the same >> hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no >> <chksernr> value.". >> >> But even that seems to suggest that valid chechgroups should be accepted >> on "auto-pilot", which is probably not a good idea. >> >> But I am not pressing this too strongly if others are happy. >> >So far, Russ and I are happy, and the rest of the list are silent, so >you're a minority. Let's finish this one. As I said, I do not press this issue strongly, so let it be. I see Ruus has now comitted it to his working text. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From jing@amazinggolfaid.com Mon Feb 16 05:40:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F9B03A6A8C for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:40:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -33.081 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-33.081 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_IS_SMALL6=0.556, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z2bvl8rNJvsb for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:40:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from akb.ch (unknown [85.236.160.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8D76D3A6A0C for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:40:32 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: answer 4 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090216134032.8D76D3A6A0C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:40:32 -0800 (PST)
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From kb49er8@alphawest.com.au Mon Feb 16 11:21:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB2553A6C00 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:21:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -31.688 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-31.688 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aGRYTZG6zKb8 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:21:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool-047de.externet.hu (pool-047de.externet.hu [88.209.243.221]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9BAD23A69F6 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:21:04 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: February % off From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090216192105.9BAD23A69F6@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:21:04 -0800 (PST)
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From on@alfredmcalpineplc.com Mon Feb 16 15:23:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 636B23A6842 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:23:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.354 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.354 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX=1.482, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HELO_EQ_NE_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, HOST_EQ_NE_JP=2.599, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e46iQsVPN3CX for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3202-ipbfp404daianji.nara.ocn.ne.jp (p3202-ipbfp404daianji.nara.ocn.ne.jp [122.23.126.202]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BF17A3A6C28 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:23:40 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Mail 60199 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090216232341.BF17A3A6C28@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:23:40 -0800 (PST)
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From negjanderjander@acocredi.org.br Mon Feb 16 23:12:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F3FA3A67F9 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:12:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -32.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-32.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119, HOST_EQ_STATIC=1.172, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s+mbdtj5jq4R for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:12:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from 200.108.28.58.business.static.tstt.net.tt (200.108.28.58.business.static.tstt.net.tt [200.108.28.58]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 36CCD3A68BA for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:12:24 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: answer 5 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090217071225.36CCD3A68BA@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:12:24 -0800 (PST)
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From mccollumaraccident@alkhorayef.com Tue Feb 17 03:16:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F103A6A97 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2009 03:16:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -37.356 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-37.356 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_ALMOST_IP=5.417, FH_HOST_ALMOST_IP=1.889, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qrbX0UrsQx3X for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2009 03:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from ip-36.net-89-3-191.rev.numericable.fr (ip-36.net-89-3-191.rev.numericable.fr [89.3.191.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EAD063A6847 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2009 03:16:15 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Message number 12968 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090217111616.EAD063A6847@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 03:16:15 -0800 (PST)
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From kmorenod@amchamar.com.ar Tue Feb 17 06:09:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B41A3A63D3 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2009 06:09:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -26.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-26.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7TxAENNoUaxW for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2009 06:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from acv-csc.be (unknown [58.69.15.130]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F8FC3A69C2 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2009 06:09:22 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Mail 15136 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090217140924.7F8FC3A69C2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 06:09:22 -0800 (PST)
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Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 9, B068. 899 Clements Road. London. SE66 1DG

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 9, B509. 741 Clements Road. London. SE84 2DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 3, B544. 197 Clements Road. London. SE27 0DG

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 0, B269. 651 Clements Road. London. SE69 3DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 9, B860. 072 Clements Road. London. SE66 4DG

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 4, B334. 756 Clements Road. London. SE02 8DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 3, B756. 968 Clements Road. London. SE66 9DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 1, B501. 665 Clements Road. London. SE82 8DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 4, B664. 069 Clements Road. London. SE16 9DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 1, B400. 681 Clements Road. London. SE72 5DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 6, B548. 682 Clements Road. London. SE13 8DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 7, B189. 677 Clements Road. London. SE46 2DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 0, B263. 435 Clements Road. London. SE34 3DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 1, B728. 270 Clements Road. London. SE34 5DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 9, B551. 831 Clements Road. London. SE05 2DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 5, B201. 406 Clements Road. London. SE17 0DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 9, B893. 958 Clements Road. London. SE07 8DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 1, B344. 243 Clements Road. London. SE95 6DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 1, B406. 004 Clements Road. London. SE30 9DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 0, B361. 262 Clements Road. London. SE82 5DG

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 1, B707. 015 Clements Road. London. SE05 7DG

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 6, B014. 410 Clements Road. London. SE73 8DG

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 7, B422. 952 Clements Road. London. SE03 7DG

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 9, B324. 893 Clements Road. London. SE08 1DG

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 4, B764. 729 Clements Road. London. SE65 0DG

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 6, B809. 538 Clements Road. London. SE22 9DG

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KEYWORD Ltd.
Tower Bridge Business Complex. Unit 6, B357. 027 Clements Road. London. SE56 1DG

© 2006-2008 KEYWORD, Ltd. All Rights Reserved

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From monicaoostra@admimarcos.com Sat Feb 28 15:06:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F81E3A67C0 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:06:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -27.026 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-27.026 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zl2qi8cuM6zl for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:06:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from 20150073043.user.veloxzone.com.br (20150073043.user.veloxzone.com.br [201.50.73.43]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 977393A6AB7 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:05:57 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Hi From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090228230558.977393A6AB7@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:05:57 -0800 (PST)
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From olson@alum.rpi.edu Sat Feb 28 17:51:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4C2C3A6876 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 17:51:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -27.172 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-27.172 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=1.778, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SNKc6MaKSZCU for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 17:51:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from amlwireless.com (unknown [190.176.16.105]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 43D053A6B61 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 17:51:00 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Great Finds From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090301015101.43D053A6B61@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 17:51:00 -0800 (PST)
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Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1GCCU68018540 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:12:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n1GCCUfN018539; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:12:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net [79.135.125.43]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1GCCI7d018510 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:12:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster&pop3$clerew$man#ac*uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 49995821.2947.562 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 12:12:17 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n1GCC3Hn007866 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 12:12:03 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n1GCC2d5007863 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 12:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24997 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4995A38E.3000103@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:57:20 GMT Lines: 29 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <4995A38E.3000103@alvestrand.no> Harald Alvestrand writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> A touch too strong for my liking. Perhaps "... and report for human >> evaluation any subsequent checkgroups control message for the same >> hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no >> <chksernr> value.". >> >> But even that seems to suggest that valid chechgroups should be accepted >> on "auto-pilot", which is probably not a good idea. >> >> But I am not pressing this too strongly if others are happy. >> >So far, Russ and I are happy, and the rest of the list are silent, so >you're a minority. Let's finish this one. As I said, I do not press this issue strongly, so let it be. I see Ruus has now comitted it to his working text. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1E9mST4018578 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:48:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n1E9mSNt018577; Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:48:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from denver.dinauz.org (dinauz.org [91.121.67.5]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1E9mGRx018569 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:48:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by denver.dinauz.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52D69604 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 2009 10:48:15 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at dinauz.org Received: from denver.dinauz.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dinauz.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VMu8I-zmbQqd for ; Sat, 14 Feb 2009 10:48:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from Iulius (AAubervilliers-151-1-10-54.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr [83.114.9.54]) by denver.dinauz.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0DDBE3C0 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 2009 10:48:15 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <467D5E20BBD14A5B97449A29C5D1C311@Iulius> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4995A38E.3000103@alvestrand.no> <873aeix8if.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <873aeix8if.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 10:47:59 +0100 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi Russ, > How does this patch look to everyone? It sounds great to me. Clear and precise. Thanks! -- Julien ÉLIE « La vraie paresse, c'est de se lever à 6 heures du matin pour avoir plus longtemps à ne rien faire. » (Tristan Bernard) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DMhsd7099157 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:43:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n1DMhsgx099156; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:43:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp5.stanford.edu (smtp5.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.85]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DMhrCI099150 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:43:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp5.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id EEB8C3B69F3 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp5.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3D43B69C7 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AB7D3E8648; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:43:52 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status In-Reply-To: ("Julien =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9LIE=22's?= message of "Fri\, 13 Feb 2009 18\:31\:38 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.2 (gnu/linux) References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4995A38E.3000103@alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:43:52 -0800 Message-ID: <873aeix8if.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Julien =C9LIE writes: > Shouldn't we add that serials should be compared as a string and not as > a number owing to their not being limited in size? A note to future > implementors would be useful. I also wonder whether we should not > change (or add?) the current example > > - Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #248 > + Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 > > to show a preferred way to use serial numbers. It would be convenient > for checkgroups senders not not worry much about the previous number > used. How does this patch look to everyone? Index: usepro.xml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --- usepro.xml (revision 5725) +++ usepro.xml (working copy) @@ -1962,19 +1962,28 @@ or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no <chksernr> value.
=20 + There is no upper limit on the length of <chksernr> + other than the limitation on the length of header fields. + Implementations may therefore want to do comparisons by + zero-padding the shorter of two <chksernr> values on the + left and then doing a string comparison rather than assuming + <chksernr> can be manipulated as a number. +
For example, the following Control header field =20 - Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #248 + Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 =20 indicates the body of the message will list every newsgroup in the de.* hierarchy, excepting the de.alt.* sub-hierarchy, and should not be honored if a checkgroups - control message with a serial number greater than 248 was - previously honored. + control message with a serial number greater than 2009021301 + was previously honored. The serial number in this example + was formed from the date in YYYYMMDD format followed by a + two-digit sequence number within that date.
=20 The body of the message is an entity of type --=20 Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DKqMgP095219 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:52:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n1DKqMb1095218; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:52:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp5.stanford.edu (smtp5.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.85]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DKqBDw095211 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:52:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp5.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 3B0B93B6777 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp5.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D1833B67E3 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E2E9B583E7; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:52:10 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: rra@stanford.edu Subject: Commit in docs/usefor (usepro.xml) User-Agent: svnlog/1.14 Message-Id: <20090213205210.E2E9B583E7@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:52:10 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Date: Friday, February 13, 2009 @ 12:52:09 Author: eagle Revision: 5725 Apply fix for 1583: specify behavior when a serial number was included and then is left off a subsequent checkgroups and require that, once serial numbers begin to be used, they continue to be used. Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml =================================================================== --- docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-02-13 19:19:53 UTC (rev 5724) +++ docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-02-13 20:52:09 UTC (rev 5725) @@ -1953,12 +1953,14 @@ The <chksernr> argument may be any positive integer. If present, it MUST increase with every change to the newsgroup - list and MUST NOT ever decrease. If provided, news servers - SHOULD remember the <chksernr> value of the previous - checkgroups control message honored for a particular hierarchy - or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any subsequent checkgroups - control message for the same hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a - smaller <chksernr> value. + list, MUST NOT ever decrease, and MUST be included in all + subsequent checkgroups control messages with the same scope. + If provided, news servers SHOULD remember the <chksernr> + value of the previous checkgroups control message honored for a + particular hierarchy or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any + subsequent checkgroups control message for the same hierarchy + or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no + <chksernr> value.
For example, the following Control header Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DHW66u087638 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:32:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n1DHW6x9087637; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:32:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from denver.dinauz.org (dinauz.org [91.121.67.5]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DHVtAw087623 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:32:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from julien@trigofacile.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by denver.dinauz.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750E62169 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:31:53 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at dinauz.org Received: from denver.dinauz.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dinauz.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ldgyze2RPKJk for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:31:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from Iulius (AAubervilliers-151-1-10-54.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr [83.114.9.54]) by denver.dinauz.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E8A4B1FCC for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:31:52 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= To: References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <4995A38E.3000103@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <4995A38E.3000103@alvestrand.no> Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:31:38 +0100 Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi Harald, > So far, Russ and I are happy, and the rest of the list are silent, so you're a minority. Let's finish this one. I also agree with that change (always including serial numbers once a checkgroups has used them). Shouldn't we add that serials should be compared as a string and not as a number owing to their not being limited in size? A note to future implementors would be useful. I also wonder whether we should not change (or add?) the current example - Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #248 + Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301 to show a preferred way to use serial numbers. It would be convenient for checkgroups senders not not worry much about the previous number used. -- Julien ÉLIE « J'aime le travail, je passerais des heures à le regarder. » Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DGj67c085057 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:45:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n1DGj6n0085056; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:45:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n1DGj4Gr085050 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:45:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDEFD39E394; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:45:03 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IoAm4-7hrjfl; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:45:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.198] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45E4739E2C0; Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:45:03 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4995A38E.3000103@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:45:02 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Lindsey CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Charles Lindsey wrote: > In <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery writes: > > >> The <chksernr> argument may be any positive integer. If >> present, it MUST increase with every change to the newsgroup >> - list and MUST NOT ever decrease. If provided, news servers >> - SHOULD remember the <chksernr> value of the previous >> - checkgroups control message honored for a particular hierarchy >> - or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any subsequent checkgroups >> - control message for the same hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a >> - smaller <chksernr> value. >> + list, MUST NOT ever decrease, and MUST be included in all >> + subsequent checkgroups control messages with the same scope. >> + If provided, news servers SHOULD remember the <chksernr> >> + value of the previous checkgroups control message honored for a >> + particular hierarchy or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any >> + subsequent checkgroups control message for the same hierarchy >> + or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no >> + <chksernr> value. >> > > A touch too strong for my liking. Perhaps "... and report for human > evaluation any subsequent checkgroups control message for the same > hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no > <chksernr> value.". > > But even that seems to suggest that valid chechgroups should be accepted > on "auto-pilot", which is probably not a good idea. > > But I am not pressing this too strongly if others are happy. > So far, Russ and I are happy, and the rest of the list are silent, so you're a minority. Let's finish this one. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n14CCYF1077705 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n14CCYXv077704; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net [79.135.125.43]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n14CCND3077674 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster*pop3#clerew&man&ac&uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 49898621.1b7c.1f4 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:17 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n14CC8wv021035 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:09 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n14CC8xZ021032 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:08 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24990 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: [1586] Multiple POSTED in Path: header Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <49883847.3080601@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:47:39 GMT Lines: 44 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <49883847.3080601@alvestrand.no> Harald Alvestrand writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> >> NOTE: Whereas the presence of two "POSTED" s will often >> indicate a malicious attempt to disguise the true origin of an article, >> it could also arise following some ususual gatewaying or injecting >> scenario (taking advantage of the "MAY contain" above), in which case >> it could be useful for detecting unintended loops or mismanaged >> gateways. The whole intent of these > humans in assessing unusual situations, and it would be unwise for >> subsequent agents automatically to assume one possibility or the other. >> >I disagree with this idea, and think we should keep the SHOULD NOT. >Not throwing away information can be accomplished by tricks like >Old-Path:. As the proposed note effectively says, saying that multiple >POSTs are generally acceptable is an invitation to the script kiddies to >play with it. If the script kiddies try it, they will get caught out because two POSTEDs will then be present and any suspicion of trollery will be confirmed. But in the case of some carefully crafted Gatewaying scheme, or, worse, in the case of some broken Gatewaying scheme that ought to be spotted, destroying the evidence will do harm. And I doubt people will want to bother with Old-Post hacks. There are plenty of Netkops around who will gleefully denounce the trolls, and plenty of experienced newsadmins who will notice indications of broken Gatewaying (especially if consistently repeated) and quietly warn those causing it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n14CCLPY077665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n14CCLEL077664; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net [79.135.125.41]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n14CCIip077634 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster^pop3&clerew*man*ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 49898623.b55.2c7 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:19 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n14CC9UV021043 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:09 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n14CC9sC021040 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:09 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24991 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:02:56 GMT Lines: 40 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery writes: > > The <chksernr> argument may be any positive integer. If > present, it MUST increase with every change to the newsgroup >- list and MUST NOT ever decrease. If provided, news servers >- SHOULD remember the <chksernr> value of the previous >- checkgroups control message honored for a particular hierarchy >- or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any subsequent checkgroups >- control message for the same hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a >- smaller <chksernr> value. >+ list, MUST NOT ever decrease, and MUST be included in all >+ subsequent checkgroups control messages with the same scope. >+ If provided, news servers SHOULD remember the <chksernr> >+ value of the previous checkgroups control message honored for a >+ particular hierarchy or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any >+ subsequent checkgroups control message for the same hierarchy >+ or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no >+ <chksernr> value. A touch too strong for my liking. Perhaps "... and report for human evaluation any subsequent checkgroups control message for the same hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no <chksernr> value.". But even that seems to suggest that valid chechgroups should be accepted on "auto-pilot", which is probably not a good idea. But I am not pressing this too strongly if others are happy. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n14CCLKc077663 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n14CCLwZ077662; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net [79.135.125.41]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n14CC9rQ077617 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 05:12:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster#pop3^clerew^man$ac^uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4989861a.7e92.33a for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:10 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n14CC8DJ021027 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:08 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n14CC2Ir021018 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24989 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: [1586] Multiple POSTED in Path: header Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <87ocxlbnxy.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <87k588dypi.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:38:14 GMT Lines: 42 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <87k588dypi.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery writes: >"Charles Lindsey" writes: >If you include Xref in an NNTP POST to an INN server, the article will be >rejected. That's why I made it a MUST; the protocol does actually break >in practice if you don't strip Xref. (Whether it *should* is a separate >question, of course, but there's a huge installed base that behaves that >way.) You surprise me. I had always assumed that Xref was only meaningful for a particular server and the clients that used it, and that if ever it received an already-present Xref (from whatever source) it would simply discard it and substitute its own. But if it is as you say, then I suppose that MUST has to remain (otherwise, SHOULD would have sufficed). >>> 1. Treat the Path header as special and permit (or even encourage) >>> retaining it while not permitting retention of the other trace headers, >>> on the grounds that it has an intrinsic ordering and therefore isn't as >>> prone to confusion as having multiple trace headers that aren't >>> ordered. >> Yes, I think I like that. >If we want to move forward with this, I think I could use some help >analyzing what needs to change in the document to make it consistent again >with this new approach. Sure. If we agree on the effects we want to achieve, then I am due for a careful read through the whole document to see what final inconsistencies might be lurking there, -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n142k8T4053143 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Feb 2009 19:46:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n142k85x053142; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 19:46:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n142jw9m053134 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 19:46:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id C5BEB51CD06 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 18:45:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC0451C7AD for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 18:45:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4F217E80B4; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 18:45:57 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status In-Reply-To: <498836BE.1080709@alvestrand.no> (Harald Alvestrand's message of "Tue\, 03 Feb 2009 13\:21\:18 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.2 (gnu/linux) References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <498836BE.1080709@alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 18:45:57 -0800 Message-ID: <87k586or6i.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Harald Alvestrand writes: > Russ Allbery wrote: >> Here's proposed wording, which uses SHOULD rather than MUST for the >> honoring side to leave wiggle room for things like a lost serial >> number. >> >> --- usepro.xml (revision 5620) >> +++ usepro.xml (working copy) >> @@ -1953,12 +1953,14 @@ >> The <chksernr> argument may be any positive integer. >> If >> present, it MUST increase with every change to the newsgroup >> - list and MUST NOT ever decrease. If provided, news servers >> - SHOULD remember the <chksernr> value of the previous >> - checkgroups control message honored for a particular hierarchy >> - or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any subsequent checkgroups >> - control message for the same hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a >> - smaller <chksernr> value. >> + list, MUST NOT ever decrease, and MUST be included in all >> + subsequent checkgroups control messages with the same scope. >> + If provided, news servers SHOULD remember the <chksernr> >> + value of the previous checkgroups control message honored for a >> + particular hierarchy or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any >> + subsequent checkgroups control message for the same hierarchy >> + or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no >> + <chksernr> value. >>
>> For example, the following Control header > I'm not very worried about this issue, but this seems fine with me. > (couldn't find the change to the text surrounding the SHOULD, but I > think the SHOULD leaves wiggle room enough for the case where weird > stuff has happened.) Does anyone have any objections? If not, I'll go ahead and commit this. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n13CRrMF011730 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Feb 2009 05:27:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n13CRrpT011729; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 05:27:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n13CRq8l011723 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 05:27:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ECBD39E3F1; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:27:52 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c6o4ucdV8A0Y; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:27:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from hta-warp.trd.corp.google.com (unknown [195.18.164.170]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3E9739E26D; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:27:51 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <49883847.3080601@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 13:27:51 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Lindsey CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: [1586] Multiple POSTED in Path: header References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Charles Lindsey wrote: > 3.4.1 of the present draft contains: > > A proto-article has the same format as a normal article except that > the Injection-Info and Xref header fields MUST NOT be present; the > Path header field SHOULD NOT contain a "POSTED" ; and > any of the following mandatory header fields MAY be omitted: > Message-ID, Date, and Path. In all other respects, a proto-article > MUST be a valid Netnews article. In particular, the header fields > which may be omitted MUST NOT be present with invalid content. > > That "SHOULD NOT" was formerly "MUST NOT", so it is an improvement. > > But I propose changing it to: > > .. the Path header field MAY contain a "POSTED" ; ... > > and adding a NOTE such as the following: > > NOTE: Whereas the presence of two "POSTED" s will often > indicate a malicious attempt to disguise the true origin of an article, > it could also arise following some ususual gatewaying or injecting > scenario (taking advantage of the "MAY contain" above), in which case > it could be useful for detecting unintended loops or mismanaged > gateways. The whole intent of these humans in assessing unusual situations, and it would be unwise for > subsequent agents automatically to assume one possibility or the other. > > Essentially, I am arguing for not throwing away any information which might > be of subsequent diagnostic use, possibly at the expense of making people > think a bit before accusing posters of trollery. It is up to the "netkops" > to deal with these issues, and our draft should not try to prejudge their > efforts. > I disagree with this idea, and think we should keep the SHOULD NOT. Not throwing away information can be accomplished by tricks like Old-Path:. As the proposed note effectively says, saying that multiple POSTs are generally acceptable is an invitation to the script kiddies to play with it. Harald Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n13CLWQL011389 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Feb 2009 05:21:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n13CLW6r011388; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 05:21:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n13CLKWr011377 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 05:21:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A05D239E3F1; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:21:19 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nTHuXYX5nC3q; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:21:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from hta-warp.trd.corp.google.com (unknown [195.18.164.170]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D65139E26D; Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:21:19 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <498836BE.1080709@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 13:21:18 +0100 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Russ Allbery CC: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Russ Allbery wrote: > Here's proposed wording, which uses SHOULD rather than MUST for the > honoring side to leave wiggle room for things like a lost serial number. > > --- usepro.xml (revision 5620) > +++ usepro.xml (working copy) > @@ -1953,12 +1953,14 @@ > > The <chksernr> argument may be any positive integer. If > present, it MUST increase with every change to the newsgroup > - list and MUST NOT ever decrease. If provided, news servers > - SHOULD remember the <chksernr> value of the previous > - checkgroups control message honored for a particular hierarchy > - or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any subsequent checkgroups > - control message for the same hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a > - smaller <chksernr> value. > + list, MUST NOT ever decrease, and MUST be included in all > + subsequent checkgroups control messages with the same scope. > + If provided, news servers SHOULD remember the <chksernr> > + value of the previous checkgroups control message honored for a > + particular hierarchy or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any > + subsequent checkgroups control message for the same hierarchy > + or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no > + <chksernr> value. > >
> For example, the following Control header > > I'm not very worried about this issue, but this seems fine with me. (couldn't find the change to the text surrounding the SHOULD, but I think the SHOULD leaves wiggle room enough for the case where weird stuff has happened.) Harald Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n132kjmu085186 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:46:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n132kjZt085185; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:46:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n132kY5B085176 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:46:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id E5B1451C581 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:46:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C019E51C56C for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:46:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 80B34E7BB2; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:46:33 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: [1586] Multiple POSTED in Path: header In-Reply-To: (Charles Lindsey's message of "Mon\, 2 Feb 2009 12\:25\:55 GMT") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.2 (gnu/linux) References: <87ocxlbnxy.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 18:46:33 -0800 Message-ID: <87k588dypi.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" writes: > Russ Allbery writes: >> Since multiple injection is the only means by which multiple POSTED >> can arise with their intended meaning and purpose, it >> seems pointless to relax the requirement too far in one area and not in >> the other. > Agreed. I think that MUST is a bit too strong as regards the Path > header. Indeed, it violates 2119 insofar as the protocol does not > actually break if is it not done - same for Xref for that matter, so it > is more a matter of what constitutes Good Practice. If you include Xref in an NNTP POST to an INN server, the article will be rejected. That's why I made it a MUST; the protocol does actually break in practice if you don't strip Xref. (Whether it *should* is a separate question, of course, but there's a huge installed base that behaves that way.) I agree that current servers do not reject posts that contain a POSTED . >> I think our options here are: > >> 1. Treat the Path header as special and permit (or even encourage) >> retaining it while not permitting retention of the other trace headers, >> on the grounds that it has an intrinsic ordering and therefore isn't as >> prone to confusion as having multiple trace headers that aren't >> ordered. > Yes, I think I like that. If we want to move forward with this, I think I could use some help analyzing what needs to change in the document to make it consistent again with this new approach. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n12IWvaw060862 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:32:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n12IWv1K060861; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:32:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net [79.135.125.41]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n12IWjw1060848 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:32:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster*pop3$clerew&man&ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 49872961.abb.365 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 17:12:01 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n12HC2H1000761 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 17:12:02 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n12HC2GS000758 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 17:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24983 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: [1586] Multiple POSTED in Path: header Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <87ocxlbnxy.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:25:55 GMT Lines: 114 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <87ocxlbnxy.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery writes: >"Charles Lindsey" writes: >> 3.4.1 of the present draft contains: >> >> A proto-article has the same format as a normal article except that the >> Injection-Info and Xref header fields MUST NOT be present; the Path >> header field SHOULD NOT contain a "POSTED" ; and any of >> the following mandatory header fields MAY be omitted: Message-ID, Date, >> and Path. In all other respects, a proto-article MUST be a valid Netnews >> article. In particular, the header fields which may be omitted MUST NOT >> be present with invalid content. >> >> That "SHOULD NOT" was formerly "MUST NOT", so it is an improvement. >> >> But I propose changing it to: >> >> .. the Path header field MAY contain a "POSTED" ; ... >Since that is equivalent to saying nothing about the POSTED >, were we to decide on this change, I think I would omit the >sentence entirely and just add the note (with corresponding minor wording >changes). Or even better, move the NOTE to a subsection of 3.2 that >explains the meaning of a POSTED keyword and the circumstances under which >a Path header could be constructed containing several of them. Sure. >> and adding a NOTE such as the following: >> >> NOTE: Whereas the presence of two "POSTED" s will often >> indicate a malicious attempt to disguise the true origin of an article, >> it could also arise following some ususual gatewaying or injecting >> scenario (taking advantage of the "MAY contain" above), in which case >> it could be useful for detecting unintended loops or mismanaged >> gateways. The whole intent of these > humans in assessing unusual situations, and it would be unwise for >> subsequent agents automatically to assume one possibility or the other. >> >> Essentially, I am arguing for not throwing away any information which might >> be of subsequent diagnostic use, possibly at the expense of making people >> think a bit before accusing posters of trollery. It is up to the "netkops" >> to deal with these issues, and our draft should not try to prejudge their >> efforts. >The corresponding text in 3.4.2 is: > In some cases, offering the same proto-article to all injecting > agents may not be possible (such as when gatewaying, after injection, > articles found on one Netnews network to another supposedly- > unconnected one). In this case, the posting agent MUST remove any > Xref header field and rename or remove any Injection-Info, Path, and > other trace header field before passing it to another injecting > agent. (This converts the article back into a proto-article.) >Since multiple injection is the only means by which multiple POSTED > can arise with their intended meaning and purpose, it >seems pointless to relax the requirement too far in one area and not in >the other. Agreed. I think that MUST is a bit too strong as regards the Path header. Indeed, it violates 2119 insofar as the protocol does not actually break if is it not done - same for Xref for that matter, so it is more a matter of what constitutes Good Practice. But failing to remove/rename Injection-Info and other tracers would be a more serious matter, because it would then be telling an untruth, so the MUST is indeed needed there. >I think our options here are: >1. Treat the Path header as special and permit (or even encourage) > retaining it while not permitting retention of the other trace headers, > on the grounds that it has an intrinsic ordering and therefore isn't as > prone to confusion as having multiple trace headers that aren't > ordered. Yes, I think I like that. >2. Leave the existing wording, which requires multiple injection to remove > or rename the Path header but allows readers to add spurious POSTED > s by violating a SHOULD. I'm not entirely comfortable > with it, but I can't think of any specific protocol harm it could > cause. >3. Restore the MUST in the proto-article section to match the MUST in > 3.4.2 and make the document consistent but possibly too strict. That would be to increase violation of 2119, which is why we demoted it before. >4. Relax the MUST generally in 3.4.2, but then we will run into issues > with Injection-Info, which the posting agent is not permitted to supply > and which doesn't have an intrinsic ordering the way that the Path > header does. That seems to agree with my remark concerning Injection-Info above, so I think we agree that bit remains a MUST. >The more I think about it, the more option 1 seems like a workable idea, >but I think that's reversing some decisions that we made some time back. >That makes me nervous at this stage of the process. +1 -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n12HEgU5056687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:14:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n12HEgoJ056686; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:14:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n12HEVdp056671 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:14:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 1B71151C581 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:14:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCEF251C604 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6F62CEA133; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:14:30 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status In-Reply-To: (Charles Lindsey's message of "Mon\, 2 Feb 2009 12\:11\:38 GMT") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.2 (gnu/linux) References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 09:14:30 -0800 Message-ID: <87fxiw7ocp.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" writes: > Russ Allbery writes: >> The third issue is about what to do when a serial number is specified >> for a hierarchy and then a subsequent control message arrives without a >> serial number. The current document is silent on what to do in this >> situation. I think it should state what should be done. My sense of >> the previous discussion was that most people felt that such a >> checkgroups should be ignored, meaning that once an authorized control >> message sender starts issuing checkgroups with serial numbers, >> subsequent checkgroups for that hierarchy must always use serial >> numbers, which must always be larger than the previous serial number. >> I'm a little worried about this provision, since after long periods of >> time and a change of hierarchy administration it can be potentially >> difficult to uncover the previous serial number. But I don't see a >> good alternative that preserves the serial number semantics. > I am slightly worried about being too specific here, for the reason you > mention. Perhaps some wording to the effect that newsadmins should think > carefully before accepting such a checkgroups (and in any case, blind > automatic acceptance of checkgroups has never been a recommended > practice). I wouldn't want to say anything stronger than that, and would > be happy to leave it as it stands. > So by all means suggest a wording if you like, or else let it be. Here's proposed wording, which uses SHOULD rather than MUST for the honoring side to leave wiggle room for things like a lost serial number. --- usepro.xml (revision 5620) +++ usepro.xml (working copy) @@ -1953,12 +1953,14 @@ The <chksernr> argument may be any positive integer. If present, it MUST increase with every change to the newsgroup - list and MUST NOT ever decrease. If provided, news servers - SHOULD remember the <chksernr> value of the previous - checkgroups control message honored for a particular hierarchy - or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any subsequent checkgroups - control message for the same hierarchy or sub-hierarchy with a - smaller <chksernr> value. + list, MUST NOT ever decrease, and MUST be included in all + subsequent checkgroups control messages with the same scope. + If provided, news servers SHOULD remember the <chksernr> + value of the previous checkgroups control message honored for a + particular hierarchy or sub-hierarchy and decline to honor any + subsequent checkgroups control message for the same hierarchy + or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no + <chksernr> value.
For example, the following Control header -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n12CCvsf037214 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Feb 2009 05:12:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n12CCvTJ037213; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 05:12:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net [79.135.125.41]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n12CCkbM037192 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 05:12:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster$pop3#clerew#man*ac^uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4986e31a.a80.207 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:12:10 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id n12CC20r011440 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:12:07 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id n12CC1cB011437 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:12:01 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24981 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status (was: Re: January: open issues on USEPRO) Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:11:38 GMT Lines: 41 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery writes: >There are four issues in this ticket. But it seems that the third is the only one where we might take any further action. >The third issue is about what to do when a serial number is specified for >a hierarchy and then a subsequent control message arrives without a serial >number. The current document is silent on what to do in this situation. >I think it should state what should be done. My sense of the previous >discussion was that most people felt that such a checkgroups should be >ignored, meaning that once an authorized control message sender starts >issuing checkgroups with serial numbers, subsequent checkgroups for that >hierarchy must always use serial numbers, which must always be larger than >the previous serial number. I'm a little worried about this provision, >since after long periods of time and a change of hierarchy administration >it can be potentially difficult to uncover the previous serial number. >But I don't see a good alternative that preserves the serial number >semantics. I am slightly worried about being too specific here, for the reason you mention. Perhaps some wording to the effect that newsadmins should think carefully before accepting such a checkgroups (and in any case, blind automatic acceptance of checkgroups has never been a recommended practice). I wouldn't want to say anything stronger than that, and would be happy to leave it as it stands. So by all means suggest a wording if you like, or else let it be. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n128Bmlm026002 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Feb 2009 01:11:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n128Bmnf026001; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 01:11:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from tertius.net.au (tertius.net.au [203.30.75.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n128BZuo025991 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 01:11:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from thorfinn@tertius.net.au) Received: from babble.peel.tertius.net.au (c220-237-62-48.smelb2.vic.optusnet.com.au [220.237.62.48]) by tertius.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE71A8080D0 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:11:32 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <2AFEDF3B-C597-496C-BE40-B784FF5E74A5@tertius.net.au> From: Thorfinn To: Usefor Mailing List In-Reply-To: <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: ISSUE 1583 status (was: Re: January: open issues on USEPRO) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:09:36 +1100 References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Discussion mostly occurred in late September 2008, under the subject line: ISSUE: Checkgroups control messages I can't remember whether we had issue numbers at that point, but for some reason the original subject line didn't, and nobody fixed it. I had something to say back then regarding sub-issues 2 and 4 below, and had nothing to say at that time about 1 and 3. On 2 Feb 2009, at 12:43, Russ Allbery wrote: > > "Charles Lindsey" writes: >> Harald Alvestrand writes: > >>> 1583 USEPRO LC 5.2.3: Checkgroups control messages >>> Open. There may be multiple issues here. >>> No discussion with "1583" in the subject. > >> I think we agreed that the present checkgroups message has a >> problem. The >> draft introduces a new feature which addresses that problem, which >> will >> work fine if checkgroups issuers use it, and it checkgroups receivers >> recognise it. > >> But if it isn't used or recognised, then the original problem will >> remain, and there is nothing much we can do about it. Therefore I >> think >> no action is needed - the present wording is the best that can be >> done. > > There are four issues in this ticket. > > The first issue is that there's no method in the checkgroups syntax to > delegate control over a newsgroup whose name matches the > subhierarchy. I > think we agreed that, yes, this is the case, and there's nothing we > can > really do about it at this stage and while still remaining > backwards-compatible. I think someone mentioned something about issuing the delegation in the parent checkgroups, but I don't recall the details. > The second issue was about whether there should be a maximum size of > the > serial number. I believe we decided that since you can compare serial > numbers as strings, there wasn't a need to set a limit. Yes. Specifically, if you skip any leading zeros, then compare string length, then asciibetically compare if strings are the same length, you have an ordered integer comparison method, with no need to actually use an integer representation at any point. Given the infrequency of checkgroups, the relative inefficiency of this comparison vs integer comparisons is a total non issue. > The third issue is about what to do when a serial number is > specified for > a hierarchy and then a subsequent control message arrives without a > serial > number. The current document is silent on what to do in this > situation. > I think it should state what should be done. My sense of the previous > discussion was that most people felt that such a checkgroups should be > ignored, meaning that once an authorized control message sender starts > issuing checkgroups with serial numbers, subsequent checkgroups for > that > hierarchy must always use serial numbers, which must always be > larger than > the previous serial number. I'm a little worried about this > provision, > since after long periods of time and a change of hierarchy > administration > it can be potentially difficult to uncover the previous serial number. > But I don't see a good alternative that preserves the serial number > semantics. I don't see any way to do that. I think it's a reasonable assumption that if you can't find a serial number anywhere, including by posting in newsgroups and asking newsmasters for what their latest one is, then it has probably become irrelevant. After all, if nobody at all knows what their latest checkgroups serial number is, then they can't be able to compare with it. This seems like an "unlikely to be a problem" situation to me. I think we should explicitly say that once you have gone to serial numbers, there is no way back to having no serial numbers. > The fourth issue is whether there should be a mechanism to reset the > serial number. I think we decided that we weren't going to specify > one. Yes, I believe we should not specify one - there is no good way to specify a reset, and combined with the ability to simply continue incrementing into integer infinity, there is no need for a reset. The closest thing was my suggestion that we could use the DNS serial number mechanism of sequence space arithmetic (i.e. a wrap-around - see DNS RFCs or the original discussion in september for details if needed), but I believe that that is more problematic than simply allowing incrementing into infinity. Ook, Thorf -- thorfinn@tertius.net.au The world is coming to an end. Please log off. -- BSD fortune file Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n121vfRT014375 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:57:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n121vfxB014374; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:57:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.82]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n121vUW1014349 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:57:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp2.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 77BBE51C672 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:57:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp2.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D7FA51C682 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:57:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C7543E90D9; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:57:29 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: [1586] Multiple POSTED in Path: header In-Reply-To: (Charles Lindsey's message of "Wed\, 28 Jan 2009 12\:56\:51 GMT") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.2 (gnu/linux) References: From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 17:57:29 -0800 Message-ID: <87ocxlbnxy.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" writes: > 3.4.1 of the present draft contains: > > A proto-article has the same format as a normal article except that the > Injection-Info and Xref header fields MUST NOT be present; the Path > header field SHOULD NOT contain a "POSTED" ; and any of > the following mandatory header fields MAY be omitted: Message-ID, Date, > and Path. In all other respects, a proto-article MUST be a valid Netnews > article. In particular, the header fields which may be omitted MUST NOT > be present with invalid content. > > That "SHOULD NOT" was formerly "MUST NOT", so it is an improvement. > > But I propose changing it to: > > .. the Path header field MAY contain a "POSTED" ; ... Since that is equivalent to saying nothing about the POSTED , were we to decide on this change, I think I would omit the sentence entirely and just add the note (with corresponding minor wording changes). Or even better, move the NOTE to a subsection of 3.2 that explains the meaning of a POSTED keyword and the circumstances under which a Path header could be constructed containing several of them. > and adding a NOTE such as the following: > > NOTE: Whereas the presence of two "POSTED" s will often > indicate a malicious attempt to disguise the true origin of an article, > it could also arise following some ususual gatewaying or injecting > scenario (taking advantage of the "MAY contain" above), in which case > it could be useful for detecting unintended loops or mismanaged > gateways. The whole intent of these humans in assessing unusual situations, and it would be unwise for > subsequent agents automatically to assume one possibility or the other. > > Essentially, I am arguing for not throwing away any information which might > be of subsequent diagnostic use, possibly at the expense of making people > think a bit before accusing posters of trollery. It is up to the "netkops" > to deal with these issues, and our draft should not try to prejudge their > efforts. The corresponding text in 3.4.2 is: In some cases, offering the same proto-article to all injecting agents may not be possible (such as when gatewaying, after injection, articles found on one Netnews network to another supposedly- unconnected one). In this case, the posting agent MUST remove any Xref header field and rename or remove any Injection-Info, Path, and other trace header field before passing it to another injecting agent. (This converts the article back into a proto-article.) Since multiple injection is the only means by which multiple POSTED can arise with their intended meaning and purpose, it seems pointless to relax the requirement too far in one area and not in the other. I think our options here are: 1. Treat the Path header as special and permit (or even encourage) retaining it while not permitting retention of the other trace headers, on the grounds that it has an intrinsic ordering and therefore isn't as prone to confusion as having multiple trace headers that aren't ordered. 2. Leave the existing wording, which requires multiple injection to remove or rename the Path header but allows readers to add spurious POSTED s by violating a SHOULD. I'm not entirely comfortable with it, but I can't think of any specific protocol harm it could cause. 3. Restore the MUST in the proto-article section to match the MUST in 3.4.2 and make the document consistent but possibly too strict. 4. Relax the MUST generally in 3.4.2, but then we will run into issues with Injection-Info, which the posting agent is not permitted to supply and which doesn't have an intrinsic ordering the way that the Path header does. The more I think about it, the more option 1 seems like a workable idea, but I think that's reversing some decisions that we made some time back. That makes me nervous at this stage of the process. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n121hiID013995 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:43:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id n121hiXW013994; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:43:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp5.stanford.edu (smtp5.Stanford.EDU [171.67.219.85]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n121hXFZ013984 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:43:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from eagle@windlord.stanford.edu) Received: from smtp5.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 5D7AE3B6969 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.67.225.134]) by smtp5.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390713B65CE for ; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:43:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DA632E90CA; Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:43:32 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: ISSUE 1583 status (was: Re: January: open issues on USEPRO) In-Reply-To: (Charles Lindsey's message of "Wed\, 28 Jan 2009 11\:41\:43 GMT") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.2 (gnu/linux) References: <497EF74B.2030600@alvestrand.no> From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 17:43:32 -0800 Message-ID: <87skmxbol7.fsf_-_@windlord.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" writes: > Harald Alvestrand writes: >> 1583 USEPRO LC 5.2.3: Checkgroups control messages >> Open. There may be multiple issues here. >> No discussion with "1583" in the subject. > I think we agreed that the present checkgroups message has a problem. The > draft introduces a new feature which addresses that problem, which will > work fine if checkgroups issuers use it, and it checkgroups receivers > recognise it. > But if it isn't used or recognised, then the original problem will > remain, and there is nothing much we can do about it. Therefore I think > no action is needed - the present wording is the best that can be done. There are four issues in this ticket. The first issue is that there's no method in the checkgroups syntax to delegate control over a newsgroup whose name matches the subhierarchy. I think we agreed that, yes, this is the case, and there's nothing we can really do about it at this stage and while still remaining backwards-compatible. The second issue was about whether there should be a maximum size of the serial number. I believe we decided that since you can compare serial numbers as strings, there wasn't a need to set a limit. The third issue is about what to do when a serial number is specified for a hierarchy and then a subsequent control message arrives without a serial number. The current document is silent on what to do in this situation. I think it should state what should be done. My sense of the previous discussion was that most people felt that such a checkgroups should be ignored, meaning that once an authorized control message sender starts issuing checkgroups with serial numbers, subsequent checkgroups for that hierarchy must always use serial numbers, which must always be larger than the previous serial number. I'm a little worried about this provision, since after long periods of time and a change of hierarchy administration it can be potentially difficult to uncover the previous serial number. But I don't see a good alternative that preserves the serial number semantics. The fourth issue is whether there should be a mechanism to reset the serial number. I think we decided that we weren't going to specify one. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)