IETF
core@jabber.ietf.org
Friday, 18 November 2011< ^ >
stpeter has set the subject to: CORE WG | minutes at http://tools.ietf.org/wg/core/minutes | slides at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/82/materials.html#wg-core
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[03:29:11] <Cullen Jennings> uh, who is taking minutes in the etherpad ?
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[03:33:26] <Kepeng> Hi Cullen, can you send me the link to take the minutes?
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[03:37:41] <EKR> Do we have meetecho for this?
[03:37:51] <Kepeng> Hi all, if you have time, please help to fill out the minutes: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/core/minutes
[03:37:57] <sal> no we don't have meetecho
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[03:40:18] <Linyi Tian> can this draft be simpler?
[03:42:45] <Cullen Jennings> sorry - no meetecho
[03:46:39] <EKR> In some future utopia, all our meetings will have slide sharing
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[04:20:15] <stpeter> SmartThingies™
[04:21:11] <stpeter> http://interop.ams.sensinode.com/
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[04:26:36] <babongo> is audio streaming dead ?
[04:26:55] <stpeter> not sure
[04:27:11] <babongo> ok it's back
[04:27:40] <zdshelby> SmartThingies is a Fred Baker TM
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[04:37:58] <zdshelby> Maybe Jari's shirt is really a bar-code identifier?
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[05:19:49] <EKR> Is someone proxying Jabber?
[05:20:21] <stpeter> I can
[05:20:24] <Roy> comments or?
[05:20:28] <stpeter> although we have only 10 minutes left
[05:20:52] <EKR> OK, I'll use MIC: for things I want forwarded. Though not for this message, even though it has "MIC:" in it
[05:20:54] <stpeter> EKR: I thought you weren't going to listen in on any more WGs for this IETF meeting :)
[05:21:00] <stpeter> :)
[05:21:12] <EKR> This is my last one. It also has "MIC:" in it but you need not proxy it
[05:23:51] <EKR> MIC: This analysis for the signaling is incorrect. (1) DTLS can do < 2 RTs with false start and (2) your handshake is totally broken, so you can't really analyze it.
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[05:26:15] <EKR> MIC: to go back to your slide 5, effectively every single protocol (S/MIME, XML{DSIG,ENC}) which has been designed to have selective protection has turned into a huge rathole, and people effectively just use the protect everything mode.
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[05:27:09] <EKR> MIC: I think the more serious problem is that designing a secure protocol like this is really hard, and you don't do it by tossing out a protocol which is full of issues and then having people point out vulnerabilities and fix them individually.
[05:27:33] <EKR> MIC: Well, HTTP is exactly such a protocol and yet people just use TLS.
[05:28:11] <EKR> MIC: Why are you sure you can get it right?
[05:28:25] <stpeter> EKR: I was just thinking the same thing
[05:28:44] <EKR> MIC: I'm trying to understand why I should be comforted by you saying this is handleable when your −00 is full of mistakes that people already knew how not to make.
[05:29:19] <Robert Cragie> MIC: I think there is a break between the crypto context and whatever you have to do beforehand to establish the serssion parameters (e.g. key). This doesn't happen in TLS or IPsec as the session is bound to the record protection
[05:31:23] <EKR> For the record, it's not like more traditional protocols designed in the security area don't contain big mistakes, either. I mean, they historically have—we've fucked up plenty of times too — but it's made us very cautious.
[05:31:28] <EKR> (no need to proxy that)
[05:31:31] <stpeter> :)
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[05:32:18] <stpeter> but we've screwed it up so many times, why not do so again?
[05:32:27] <zdshelby> :-)
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[05:32:55] <EKR> Sorry folks, I lost streaming
[05:33:10] <Robert Cragie> I lost the audio just when it was getting interesting :-(
[05:33:16] <EKR> ok, so it's not just me
[05:33:19] <stpeter> EKR: Jari sort-of made your point
[05:33:22] <EKR> OK then. :)
[05:33:38] <stpeter> EKR: officially we're overtime, so maybe someone unplugged the audio in general
[05:33:50] <EKR> for the record, I would suggest that if you want selective modes you would be better with JOSE + DTLS
[05:33:55] <EKR> with JOSE for the fine-grained stuff
[05:34:39] <Robert Cragie> @EKR +1 - JOSE or XML security etc.
[05:34:55] <EKR> XML would be just as good, I'm just a JOSE booster today :)
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