IETF
dispatch@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, April 4, 2016< ^ >
Jonathan Lennox has set the subject to: DISPATCH WG session
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[12:12:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> hi there folks: the session is not open yet, just testing, so we'll likely close this down in a few minutes and reopen it later
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[12:50:23] <Olle E. Johansson, Sollentuna, Sweden (GMT+1 DST)> Hello folks
[12:50:46] Cullen Jennings joins the room
[12:51:23] <Cullen Jennings> Are others having any issues with Meetecho
[12:51:33] <Olle E. Johansson, Sollentuna, Sweden (GMT+1 DST)> The meetecho link from the agenda doesn't seem to work
[12:51:55] <Meetecho> let me check
[12:52:03] <Cullen Jennings> Do you havppen to know the correct link
[12:52:04] <Meetecho> links are not active yet though
[12:52:14] <Meetecho> they open about 5 minutes before the session starts
[12:52:26] <Cullen Jennings> thank you guys
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[12:52:36] <Olle E. Johansson, Sollentuna, Sweden (GMT+1 DST)> Ok!
[12:52:38] <Meetecho> This works for me: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf95/dispatch
[12:52:51] <Meetecho> it should tell you it's still too soon, but it sends you to the right place
[12:53:13] <Olle E. Johansson, Sollentuna, Sweden (GMT+1 DST)> seems to be /dev/null
[12:53:19] <Meetecho> ?
[12:53:35] <Olle E. Johansson, Sollentuna, Sweden (GMT+1 DST)> No response on that URL
[12:53:54] <Meetecho> try this one then: https://buenayrec.conf.meetecho.com/q-meetecho/login.jsp?ietf=dispatch
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[12:57:40] <Olle Johansson> I am in!
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[12:59:16] <Mary Barnes> I am too ;)
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[13:03:54] <hildjj> If you need me to relay to the microphones in the room, please prefix your message with "MIC:"
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[13:09:37] <Olle Johansson> who's talking?
[13:09:49] Victor Pascual joins the room
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[13:10:04] <John Levine> Alissa
[13:10:10] <Tony Hansen> @meetecho: no slides visible?
[13:10:50] <Olle Johansson> I see slides
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[13:12:48] <Tony Hansen> I tried clicking all the buttons I can find, and I only see the speaker+chairs in the large area of the screen
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[13:13:07] <Tony Hansen> I must be missing something simple
[13:13:10] <Olle Johansson> I have them in a small picture up in the corner and the slides in thte middle
[13:13:27] <Olle Johansson> I haven't pressed any buttons, so it seems to be my default
[13:13:56] <Ken Murchison> Slides stopped updating for me
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[13:14:30] <Cullen Jennings> not showing them right now
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[13:16:12] <Meetecho> if you're getting no slides, try rejoining please
[13:16:35] <Meetecho> everything seems ok from our position
[13:16:36] <Mary Barnes> WE hardly ever used RAI list.
[13:16:38] Ned Freed joins the room
[13:16:49] <Mary Barnes> The number on RAI list was a fraction of DISPATCH.
[13:17:08] <hildjj> so what was the action there?
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[13:18:40] <Mary Barnes> It wasn't clear to me either.  We are at least killing RAI area list.
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[13:19:08] <Mary Barnes> I think we would keep APPS list for discussion, but to progress, the topic ought to redirect to DISPATCH.  
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[13:19:50] <Jonathan Lennox> Mary: I think that was what Barry proposed, and people seemed to agree.
[13:20:54] <Mary Barnes> Okay - that wasn't clear to me.  
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[13:23:27] <Olle Johansson> TONIC wg? We have used GIN...
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[13:24:26] <Tony Hansen> refreshing my screen brought back the slides
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[13:30:01] <Olle Johansson> Who asked?
[13:30:02] <Jonathan Lennox> EKR at the mic.
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[13:30:10] <Olle Johansson> thx
[13:30:28] <Dave Crocker> Sounds like DKIM.
[13:30:38] Ned Freed joins the room
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[13:33:28] <Olle Johansson> Scribe: It's tradition for a jabber scribe to ask EKR to speak slowly ;-)
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[13:33:46] <Olle Johansson> It surely doesn't work, but anyway
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[13:34:14] <Jonathan Lennox> You can usually get EKR to speak slowly for half a sentence.
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[13:34:30] <Mary Barnes> No, I think it's usually half a word.
[13:34:56] <Dave Crocker> Perhaps there should be a display at the microphone that shows solid green, solid red, and flashing red, set according to the speaker's speech speed?
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[13:35:16] <Dave Crocker> The flashing red might difficult even for EKR to ignore.
[13:35:43] <Olle Johansson> I am sorry, I don't agree. He will be able to successfully ignore it, but maybe after 0,75 of a word.
[13:35:45] <Dave Crocker> BTW, I assume this jabber session is Dispatch-BA?
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[13:36:33] <Olle Johansson> PRACK
[13:36:50] <Olle Johansson> Oh, it's already on the slide.
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[13:37:56] <Paul Kyzivat> MIC: what is wrong with starting media before identity is established? The UI simply needs to make it clear when the media is trusted, and when it is not.
[13:38:45] <Olle Johansson> Early media can be sent from another source
[13:39:03] <Jonathan Lennox> hildjj: are you jabber relay?
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[13:39:30] <hildjj> yes.
[13:39:34] <Jonathan Lennox> Paul: there's also the meetecho queue if you have a mic.
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[13:39:42] <Dave Crocker> @Paul, your assertion is based on a belief that display of authentication is useful for end-users, whereas there's a mass of experience showing that it is /not/.
[13:39:50] <Paul Kyzivat> ah, ok.
[13:40:07] <hildjj> still relay?
[13:40:34] <Paul Kyzivat> I'll wait in line for the mic
[13:40:41] <Meetecho> Chairs; if you press the red button you'll unmute Paul
[13:40:43] <hildjj> im next
[13:41:28] <hildjj> say something paul?
[13:41:39] <hildjj> meetecho: need audio help
[13:41:54] <Meetecho> just a sec please
[13:42:09] <Olle Johansson> EKR speaking?
[13:42:12] <hildjj> yes
[13:42:17] <Paul Kyzivat> My mic didn't work. Can somebody relay my text above?
[13:42:25] <hildjj> yes, i'll get back in line
[13:43:36] <John Klensin> @Dave, while I agree, it is useful for some (a few?) end-users and onceand hope for learning as thinkgs evolve.  Whether that is likely or not is a different question, but there is a case to be made for having the facilities in place for after people get burned and learn the hard way to pay attention.
[13:43:37] <Olle Johansson> Who is talking?
[13:43:43] <Alissa Cooper> Chris Wendt
[13:44:31] <Dave Crocker> MIC - please just relay; this is a response to Paul's suggestion::  It is a reasonable idea, but all the experience with display of authentication information to end-users has so far not been useful.
[13:44:44] <John Klensin> @Aliissa: More generaly, there has been very little clear announcement of speaker name in this session.  Might reming people.
[13:44:55] <hildjj> ekr speaking
[13:45:20] <Olle Johansson> Thanks John
[13:45:54] <Olle Johansson> I am not sure the starting point should be STIR
[13:46:05] <Dave Crocker> @John, 'user training' is a classic fallback. It does not work for authentication info.
[13:46:08] <Olle Johansson> We may want to look into "what's a secure call" and start with requirements
[13:47:07] <Victor Pascual> @Olle: we put this together in 2009 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-elwell-dispatch-identity-reqs-01
[13:47:29] <hildjj> crocker: could you repeat your mic:, please.
[13:47:30] <Olle Johansson> Isn't that focused on identity
[13:47:48] <Olle Johansson> We have a lot of issues in SIP/TLS that we need to look into
[13:47:57] <Olle Johansson> But this may be a way to bypass those problems
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[13:48:33] <Olle Johansson> @victor That draft is about "secure caller ID", not "secure calls"
[13:48:40] <Victor Pascual> yup
[13:48:42] <Olle Johansson> It's related though :-)
[13:48:47] <hildjj> (found it)
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[13:48:57] <Dave Crocker> @hildj, what are you asking me to repeat?
[13:49:17] <hildjj> nevermind, i got your comment relayed.  i had missed it, but found it in the logs.
[13:49:28] <Dave Crocker> ok. tnx.
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[13:52:39] <Olle Johansson> Hand up
[13:52:45] <Victor Pascual> hand up
[13:52:59] <Varun Singh> hand up for DTLS/SRTP
[13:53:00] <Olle Johansson> hand up for must not MIKEY
[13:53:29] <Mary Barnes> Hand up for MIKEY
[13:54:41] <hildjj> can you folks that said "hand up", resend with a clear statement about what your hand means
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[13:55:13] <Victor Pascual> hand up for DTLS-SRTP
[13:55:28] <Mary Barnes> I already put my hand up for MIKEY.
[13:55:36] <hildjj> for or against?
[13:56:04] <Mary Barnes> For MIKEY.
[13:56:21] <Mary Barnes> I know it's not widely used, but it would be good to point them to this.
[13:56:55] <Olle Johansson> yes, people do sdes so we gotta fix SIP/TLS
[13:57:25] <Olle Johansson> If media security relies on STIR in this BCP, it's gonna take years until it can be tested in commercial implementations
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[14:00:52] <hta> hm. I have commentary on the "what next" slide.....
[14:03:46] <Olle Johansson> There *ARE* implementations out there. Asterisk is one
[14:03:50] <Olle Johansson> And many soft phones
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[14:04:46] <Paul Kyzivat> At the end of the day, if the only way I can talk to you is via a tapped connection, I may still want that. But I want to know that it is not secure.
[14:05:10] <Victor Pascual> @Olle: Yup, there are implementations out there but the majority of deployments I''m aware of are based on SDES
[14:05:28] <Olle Johansson> @victor :: Absolutely
[14:05:59] <Jonathan Lennox> Usual AVT* guy complaint: Please use "sdesc" to refer to security descriptions; "SDES" is RTCP source description.
[14:06:07] <Jonathan Lennox> (Jon got it right in his slides.)
[14:06:15] <Olle Johansson> Ok
[14:06:16] <Barry Leiba> Paul, the problem is that lots of experience tells us that trying to convey to end users in general that something is or isn't secure… doesn't work.  They don't understand.
[14:06:17] <Victor Pascual> @Jonathan- right
[14:08:15] <Olle Johansson> I don't think this belongs in STIR
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[14:10:18] <Olle Johansson> good question by Adam
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[14:13:44] <Paul Kyzivat> @Barry: I understand. But the situation remains. ISTM the only alternative is to first attempt a secure call, then separately attempt an insecure call. And even that only works for the caller, not the callee.
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[14:15:57] <hildjj> Action: ekr volunteered to help write a section.
[14:16:09] <Paul Kyzivat> So I think this is more a matter of working on better ways of communicating the situation to the user.
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[14:18:12] <Olle Johansson> agree with cullen - we have two choices
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[14:18:16] <Garima Pandey> Hum
[14:18:35] <Mary Barnes> I think we should do a mini WG.
[14:19:09] <hildjj> mary, mic?
[14:19:52] <Mary Barnes> Exactly what Jonathan said.
[14:20:41] <John Klensin> When a quesiton is asked of the audience, it would be good if the chairs would summarize what they think was the result, not just say "yes", or "so"
[14:21:04] <Olle Johansson> Remote participation is hard here.
[14:21:36] <Alissa Cooper> Will try to remind people.
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[14:22:31] <Olle Johansson> Gotta go - will be interesting to see what happens with this
[14:22:48] <Olle Johansson> Thanks @alissa
[14:22:57] <Nigel Weinronk> thanks
[14:23:12] <Victor Pascual> hummmmm
[14:23:14] <Victor Pascual> hummmmm
[14:23:16] <Olle Johansson> What's the alternative?
[14:23:16] <Varun Singh> hummmmm
[14:23:24] <hildjj> not doing the work.
[14:23:39] <Varun Singh> humm for doing a single/short action working group.
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[14:25:32] <ted.h> Flashbacks to autovon anyone?
[14:26:33] <Mary Barnes> Not autovon - totally different than that.
[14:27:56] <Mary Barnes> Certainly, there are priorities and pre-emption but the media management is entirely different
[14:28:35] ben joins the room
[14:29:12] <Garima Pandey> what is MCPTT
[14:29:20] <Mary Barnes> Mission Critical Push to Talk
[14:29:23] <Garima Pandey> ??
[14:29:47] <Mary Barnes> It's First Net in US.  It's for first responders - i.e., emergency services personel - police, firefighters, EMTs
[14:29:54] <Varun Singh> slides are here: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-dispatch-0.pdf
[14:32:40] <Mary Barnes> Ted is correct - it is a specific application that understands it.
[14:32:47] <Garima Pandey> ok...thnx
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[14:35:15] <Nigel Weinronk> i am here
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[14:35:49] <Cullen Jennings> yes
[14:36:18] <Meetecho> can you see Neil's video on the second screen?
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[14:36:28] <ben> yes
[14:36:32] <Garima Pandey> yes
[14:36:39] <Meetecho> cool!
[14:38:30] <Garima Pandey> where we use last diverting line identify?
[14:38:45] <Garima Pandey> :(
[14:39:27] <Garima Pandey> sorry...identity?
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[14:46:24] <John Klensin> Speakers not identifying themselves... again
[14:46:42] <Garima Pandey> ok
[14:46:43] <John Klensin> I recognize Jon's voice, but...
[14:46:53] <Alissa Cooper> He did say his name.
[14:47:00] <ben> He did, but the mike cutout
[14:47:04] <Paul Kyzivat> I thought draft-mohali-dispatch-originating-cdiv-parameter-00 was an alternative to this.
[14:47:52] <John Klensin> Sorry, I should have said "combination of speaker and technology is resultingin a lot of non-identification"
[14:48:04] <Jörgen Axell> No, that is a session case. This is identity.
[14:48:20] Garima Pandey leaves the room
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[14:51:28] <hildjj> Action: Mary will help Nigel.  The room thanks her.
[14:51:31] <ted.h> Thanks, Mary!
[14:51:41] <Mary Barnes> I didn't sign up for that!
[14:52:02] <Mary Barnes> We need someone to look at that but I don't have the BW.  
[14:52:10] <hildjj> I still didn't hear the name of the other person in the room who offered to help.
[14:52:12] <Mary Barnes> I would think Marianne Mohali could be really helpful.
[14:52:19] <Alissa Cooper> Shida also volunteered.
[14:52:25] <hildjj> thank you.
[14:53:11] <Mary Barnes> I have read.
[14:53:18] <Nigel Weinronk> Can I have the name of the person driving last-diverting-line-id ?
[14:53:34] <Alissa Cooper> Shida Schubert
[14:53:41] <Nigel Weinronk> thanks
[14:53:49] <Mary Barnes> the delay limits doc is a survey of research.
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[14:54:49] <Mary Barnes> Yes, IETF should do the work.
[14:55:00] <Mary Barnes> the work being the dawes draft
[14:55:26] <Mary Barnes> I don't see the end run?  Adam, can you post something to DISPATCH about that.
[14:56:09] ted.h leaves the room
[14:56:27] <ben> @Mary: I did post something, although I didn't use Adam's words
[14:56:44] <Jonathan Lennox> Mary: Adam's not in the jabber room afaict.
[14:56:51] <Mary Barnes> Ben - okay. thanks.
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[14:57:02] <ben> The draft proposes a new registry of media security mechanisms that has  weaker registration policy than the original sip security mechanism registry
[14:58:08] Victor Pascual leaves the room
[14:58:12] <ben> The author has expressed flexibility about that; we just need to work out the details
[14:59:24] <John Klensin> MIC: People should see my on-list comments about the difficulty of getting this exactly consisstent with the standards and risks of ending up with a BCP contradicting a standard.
[14:59:47] <John Klensin> MIC: Strictly speaking, mail syntax is written in a mixture of ABNF and prose.
[15:01:05] <hildjj> in line for jck
[15:01:14] <Tony Hansen> regexen is needed, if for no other reason that getting forms to accept my subaddresses!
[15:02:44] <hildjj> http://html5doctor.com/html5-forms-input-types/#input-email
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[15:05:17] <Cullen Jennings> Link to Martins Regex generated from ABNF
[15:05:17] <Cullen Jennings> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/martinthomson/abnf2regex/master/abnf/rfc5322-short-output.abnf
[15:06:14] <John Klensin> @Harald:  +1
[15:06:45] <ned.freed@xmpp.pro> Sorry, as a practical matter, the risks of having some regexps that aren't quite perfect in some way are far outweighed by the rewards of having email address regexps in an RFC.
[15:07:35] ted.h joins the room
[15:07:52] <hildjj> Who cares if this is a BCP, or even if it gets an RFC number.
[15:08:19] <ned.freed@xmpp.pro> I care that it gets an RFC number. That's important because people look for RFCs for this stuff.
[15:08:37] <hildjj> We shouldn't use the fact that it's hard to keep useful work from coming here.
[15:08:45] <ned.freed@xmpp.pro> But I agree that the status of the document is irrelevant. Invent a new status for all I care.
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[15:11:00] <Mary Barnes> I did no such thing!
[15:11:59] <hildjj> no worries, Mary.
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[15:14:22] <Nigel Weinronk> cheers
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[15:14:42] <Mary Barnes> By all. Have a nice glass of red wine with your lunch for me.
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[16:42:37] Olle E. Johansson, Sollentuna, Sweden (GMT+1 DST) joins the room
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[16:59:01] ben joins the room
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[17:17:35] Olle E. Johansson, Sollentuna, Sweden (GMT+1 DST) leaves the room
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[19:44:47] Olle E. Johansson, Sollentuna, Sweden (GMT+1 DST) joins the room
[20:13:15] Olle E. Johansson, Sollentuna, Sweden (GMT+1 DST) leaves the room
[20:30:41] Kurt Andersen leaves the room
[20:43:07] Alissa Cooper joins the room
[20:45:35] Alissa Cooper leaves the room
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