IETF
dispatch@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, July 17, 2017< ^ >
Jonathan Lennox has set the subject to: DISPATCH WG session
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[07:31:28] <rsalz> I'm your jabber scribe.  If you want me to relay anything please put "mic:" at the front or ping me directly.
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[07:32:02] <rsalz> Administrivia
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[07:32:48] <rsalz> Deadlines for IETF 100
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[07:34:21] <rsalz> AD update
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[07:35:26] <rsalz> Jeffrey Yasskoin, Web Packaging
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[07:36:03] <rsalz> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-99-dispatch-web-packaging/00/
[07:36:09] <rsalz> p"3" Why
[07:38:18] <rsalz> p "4" Requirements
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[07:39:13] <rsalz> p"5" Requirements
[07:40:05] <rsalz> p "6" Sketch of the draft format
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[07:41:20] <rsalz> p "7" Open Questions
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[07:42:37] <rsalz> Mark Nottingham talking
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[07:46:45] <rsalz> PHB talking
[07:48:10] <rsalz> Magnus
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[07:50:41] <rsalz> ekr
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[07:55:41] <Andrew Sullivan> Given the push back on the mic line I heard, this sounds like it needs a bof.
[07:55:46] <Andrew Sullivan> (to me)
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[07:56:30] <tale > Inclined to agree with Andrew
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[07:56:41] <resnick> Someone said that “MHTML is not defined” or something like that. There’s something needed in addition to RFC 2557?
[07:56:55] <tale > PHB I believe
[07:57:09] <rsalz> and Jeffrey (speaker) concurred
[07:57:16] <rsalz> mnot
[07:57:54] <rsalz> martin
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[07:58:46] <rsalz> dkg
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[07:58:58] <mnot> A mailing list for this would be interesting...
[07:59:46] <rsalz> ben schwartz
[08:00:11] <rsalz> paul hoffman
[08:00:16] <tale > A mailing list for this would be MORE MAIL
[08:00:27] Vinay joins the room
[08:00:36] <rsalz> BoF makes sense
[08:01:11] <Andrew Sullivan> We appear to be running the bof now :)
[08:01:34] <Cullen Jennings> noted :-)
[08:01:38] <mnot> that’s what we do :)
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[08:01:52] <tale > Quite.  Let's hum it and move on.  (Though in fairness, he's got 4 more minutes.)
[08:01:56] <rsalz> ekr
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[08:02:37] <Martin Thomson> we would need to walk through things like ambient authority, localization of content, stc...
[08:02:55] <mnot> interaction with caching, conneg, etc.
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[08:04:02] <Martin Thomson> let's get clarity before we bof on things
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[08:04:32] <mnot> +1 to that
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[08:04:57] <rsalz> NEW TOPIC  Paul Hoffman DNS over HTTPS https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-99-dispatch-dns-over-https/
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[08:05:24] <rsalz> p2 purpose of the draft
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[08:07:08] <Andrew Sullivan> I think that the fact someone upstairs is hammering on something is fully appropriate for this presentation: it's the sound of the square peg and round hole interaction.
[08:07:21] <rsalz> LOL
[08:07:24] <tale > har
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[08:07:33] <rsalz> p3 best practice http semantics
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[08:08:52] <rsalz> p4 non-requirements for the draft
[08:09:15] <ekr> Trying to figure out what the security model is here.
[08:09:25] <Martin Thomson> bcp56bis says that you don't pick an HTTP version, so why h2-only?
[08:09:41] <Martin Thomson> and it's h2, not H2
[08:09:57] <ekr> HH
[08:09:59] <rsalz> p5 how it looks (today)
[08:10:01] <mnot> h2d2
[08:10:12] <Andrew Sullivan> ISTR there's something in the draft about why to pick the version.
[08:10:47] <Andrew Sullivan> (I forget.  It might have been dropped.)
[08:10:57] <Martin Thomson> That seems to be so that it can pick up the h2 security requirements
[08:11:05] <Martin Thomson> that's not really necessary
[08:11:36] <Martin Thomson> the fact that the performance sucks without h2 is also made, but is also unnecessary
[08:11:48] <tale > "   In order to satisfy the security requirements of DNS over HTTPS, this
   protocol MUST use HTTP/2 [RFC7540] or its successors.  HTTP/2
   enforces a modern TLS profile necessary for achieving the security
   requirements of this protocol."  (Section 7)
[08:11:50] <Martin Thomson> (though it's true that the performance on HTTP/1.1 would suck)
[08:11:55] <rsalz> p7 POST
[08:12:01] <rsalz> p8 The response
[08:12:24] <rsalz> p9 can also do different content-types
[08:13:31] <rsalz> p10 why DISPATCH
[08:14:03] <rsalz> Magnus
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[08:15:37] <Martin Thomson> dprive had to solve this problem already...
[08:15:50] <rsalz> i'm gonna get on the mic line
[08:16:02] <ekr> It’s not clear to me that they really did though
[08:16:29] <ekr> Well, 8.8.8.8 isn’t exactly a thing there is a cert for
[08:16:30] <Martin Thomson> OK, dprive decided not to solve this
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[08:16:57] <ekr> yes, that might be more accurate
[08:17:15] <Martin Thomson> IP certs are a thing apparently
[08:17:19] <ekr> yes, so I hear
[08:17:22] <Martin Thomson> I see a -00 in ACME for IP certificates
[08:17:27] <Martin Thomson> and I hear that browsers accept them
[08:17:32] <ekr> Yeah, I hear that too
[08:18:17] <rsalz> mnot talking (I walked off :)
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[08:18:52] <ekr> Kinda sad that we seem to have just finished dprive (DNS-over-TLS and now we are talking about chartering DNS-over-HTTP-over-TLS)
[08:19:16] <rsalz> and next year we'll do dns over quic
[08:19:51] <ekr> that is at least arguably diffrent
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[08:20:21] <rsalz> how so?  i'm assuming the Dns packets will not change.
[08:20:23] <rsalz> tale at the mic
[08:20:39] <ekr> udp vs tcp
[08:20:41] <Cullen Jennings> Do we need to ask / discuss why we need this if we have DNS over TLS?
[08:20:54] <ekr> why i am at the mic
[08:20:56] <Peter van Dijk> @cullen DNS over TLS does not expose it to the browsers any more than DNS does
[08:20:57] <Cullen Jennings> thx
[08:21:08] <John Levine> so we can make queries from javascript apps
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[08:21:25] <rsalz> And I can see an argument that the fundamental naming protocol should be available "by any means necessary"
[08:21:30] <ekr> yes i am very unpersuaded that is good
[08:21:31] <Peter van Dijk> and do UPDATEs from javascript apps ;) (i'll poke paul about that later)
[08:21:42] <Cullen Jennings> sorry - did not mean to cause the conversation to happen in IM. Just wanted to amke sure someone was going to discuss at mic if it needed to be discussed
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[08:22:32] <rsalz> ted hardie
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[08:25:17] <John Klensin> MIC: I'm trying to think about how you would use content negotiation to select among variants as one of the slides indicated and given that the DNS doesn't support a "give me all the names that are aliases for this one
[08:25:37] <Andrew Sullivan> How is this going to fork, given that the one mandatory to implement type is the wire format?
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[08:26:13] <rsalz> k john
[08:26:16] <Andrew Sullivan> I tend to agree with John's question, but that sounds like something that a WG ought to answer
[08:26:23] <tale > It isn't so much a protocol fork as an information channel fork that subverts things like policy boundaries
[08:26:44] <Andrew Sullivan> We decided not to solve the policy boundary problem — we closed dbound without an answer ;-)
[08:26:54] <Peter van Dijk> @tale just add xpf ;)
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[08:27:02] <John Klensin> MIC: I'm trying to figure out what it would mean to use content negotiation to select variants (as one of the slides indicated) given that the DNS does not support a "give me all the aliases for this name" function (much less their properties).  The draft talks about alternatives, but doesn't seem to say.  Could you talk a bit more about that?
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[08:27:32] <Martin Thomson> let a thousand flowers bloom: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Amorphophallus+titanum&t=ffab&iax=1&ia=images
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[08:27:48] <tale > Like, say I believe I have my local DNS resolver pretty locked down for what I want.  I'm telling it to do strict DNS and used client-subnet anonymity and so on.   Now J Random web server is making DNS requests on my behalf, using who knows what for ECS and no DNSSEC and whatever else might have been important to me?
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[08:28:28] <tale > This is why I'm particularly concerned about it evolving into DNS push over HTTP
[08:28:51] <rsalz> yoam
[08:28:53] <rsalz> er, yoav
[08:29:15] <Martin Thomson> tale : is your question: how do you ensure that you are the only one making queries?
[08:29:23] <John Klensin> MIC: Thanks.  And, yes the draft says "alternative" but the slide said "variants" and that term has taken on a special meaning where the DNS is concerned.
[08:29:46] <mnot> ‘variants’ is a deprecated term of art in http
[08:29:49] <tale > That's one aspect of it, yes.  (Which I realize isn't even something we can guarantee now.)
[08:29:59] <tale > mnot might even say "legacy". :)
[08:30:12] <Martin Thomson> tale : that was what I was going to say, we can't stop the DNS requests
[08:30:37] <mnot> http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/36db9t
[08:30:42] <tale > To me it changes the surface area
[08:30:44] <John Klensin> "alternatives", but the siide said "variants" which has taken on a special meaning wrt the DNS.
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[08:31:54] <rsalz> dkg
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[08:33:00] <John Klensin> @Mark Yes, thanks.  Unfortunately, if one is going to talk about DNS and HTTP in the same context, one needs to be really careful about terminology lest those of us suffering from small brain get really confused.
[08:33:23] <mnot> Yep.
[08:33:24] <rsalz> "when I use a word, Humpty said, it means exactly what I think it means" :)
[08:33:49] <Jonathan Lennox> https://xkcd.com/1860/
[08:33:51] <tale > To be fair, even the vast vocabulary of English has insufficiently many near-synonyms to express the overloading of terms at IETF
[08:34:26] <rsalz> ekr
[08:34:32] <Andrew Sullivan> @tale: sure, but the DNS-HTTP dialects are particularly rich targets for collisions
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[08:35:01] <jeffpc@jabber.org> HTTP+TLS seems to be turning into IPsec...
[08:36:25] <Martin Thomson> this thread might be an attractive nuisance
[08:36:37] <Martin Thomson> hypothetical sure
[08:36:41] <tale > "might"?
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[08:37:31] <Andrew Sullivan> I don't get ekr's complaint here.  It sounds like he is saying, "I don't think this would be useful to me, therefore it's stupid"
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[08:37:36] <ted.h> It's the obvious use case for this talking to an HTTP proxy that is also my enterprise DNS recursive?
[08:37:36] <mnot> +1
[08:38:18] <Andrew Sullivan> There are at least 5 obvious use cases for this, and I am not getting what the complaint is.
[08:38:24] <mnot> at least
[08:38:37] <John Levine> sure would have been nice for rdap bootstrapping
[08:38:53] <rsalz> I think getting DNS data from the server you're talking to is interesting and probably useful.  Knowing what the origin thinks is the ipaddr of some its subresources, for example
[08:38:55] <Andrew Sullivan> rdap is extensible ;-)
[08:39:51] <Martin Thomson> some operating systems can do the mixing
[08:40:08] <rsalz> bron g(?)
[08:40:13] <mnot> fastmail
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[08:40:51] <ted.h> I think part of the issue here is that most cases of mixing DNS wireformat traffic and other traffic requires thinking carefully about what origins mean in that context.  If you don't mix, then this is a pure privacy-preserving DNS transport.
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[08:41:52] <tale > I'll quibble with "pure".  cf. the ECS example.
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[08:42:08] <tale > (On a practical level, if not on a theoretically possible level.)
[08:42:16] <Andrew Sullivan> @ted.h: agree.  But that sounds like a privacy considerations section entry.
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[08:42:34] <ted.h> @tale Yeah, and existence of an HTTP proxy also has consequences.  s/pure//?
[08:42:41] <ekr> @ajs: that’s most certainly not what I’m saying
[08:42:45] <rsalz> alexey
[08:42:50] <Andrew Sullivan> @ekr: ok, then I just didn't understand you.
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[08:43:46] <ekr> Sure. Like all other prior conversations, this seems like a mechanism designed for some extremely vague set of ill-specified use cases that only intersect at “this should somehow be over HTTPS
[08:43:56] <ekr> That’s not a good basis for design
[08:44:20] <rsalz> NEW TOPIC
[08:44:24] <rsalz> BoF's this week
[08:44:36] <Cullen Jennings> DAVE THALER … we are getting closer to your topic …
[08:44:41] <rsalz> New WGs formed
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[08:45:03] <tale > +1 ekr
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[08:46:01] <rsalz> NEW TOPIC
[08:46:02] <rsalz> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-99-dispatch-mult-transport-uris/00/
[08:46:14] <rsalz> Using URI's with multiple transport stacks, Dave Thaler
[08:46:20] <rsalz> p1. Some recent requests for URI schemes
[08:47:32] <Martin Thomson> is there any guidance about what character to use for the separator?
[08:47:50] <ekr> ||||
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[08:48:27] <Martin Thomson> Also, why in 2017 are we building protocols that run without TLS?
[08:48:51] <Adam Roach> Martin Thomson: 1 Hz processors with 4 bits of storage, apparently
[08:48:52] <rsalz> p3 The Problem
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[08:50:13] <Martin Thomson> https://www.wired.com/2013/02/freescales-tiny-arm-chip/ seems fairly capable to me
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[08:52:15] <rsalz> p4 example use case
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[08:54:37] <rsalz> p5 discovery vs selection
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[08:55:28] <Adam Roach> Martin Thomson: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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[08:56:26] <rsalz> p6 discussion of 4 discovery approaches
[08:57:17] <John Klensin> Meetecho: At least here, audio just disappeared.
[08:57:18] Samuel Weiler joins the room
[08:57:26] <Julian Reschke> same here
[08:57:35] <Adam Roach> Martin Thomson: Recall that one of the major initial requirements on CoAP was that it not introduce anything as complicated as TCP. I mean, that seems ironic in the context of the current conversation, but the notion (correct or not) was that the devices would be *that* constrained.
[08:57:42] <Meetecho> John Klensin: ack, fixing that
[08:58:21] <Martin Thomson> https://i.imgflip.com/1smbud.jpg
[08:58:39] <Adam Roach> FTW
[08:59:28] <John Klensin> @Meetecho  back now.. thanks
[08:59:44] <Friedman Ronen> not here
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[09:00:31] <rsalz> John
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[09:00:45] <Meetecho> Friedman Ronen: try hitting the audio reconnect button (lower right area of the screen volume icon circled by arrows)
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[09:00:51] <rsalz> (lennox, oops)
[09:00:58] <Meetecho> if that doesn't work, you may have to rejoin
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[09:01:17] <Friedman Ronen> OK. Thanks
[09:01:28] <Jonathan Lennox> rsalz: Jonathan or Jon; no H before the N.
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[09:01:30] <rsalz> discussion of 4 discovery mechiansms 2/2
[09:01:46] Remy Liu leaves the room
[09:01:47] <rsalz> carston was talking
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[09:02:54] <Adam Roach> Martin Thomson: Sure, and there's this as well: http://dunkels.com/adam/miniweb/
[09:03:46] <rsalz> PHB
[09:03:51] <tale > Of course it's wrong.  We already have Google for discovery
[09:04:04] <John Klensin> MIC: Dave, seems to me that halfway to your 4th approach is to focus on identification the resourse and go with URNs, allowing the protocol to be sorted out as part of the resolution mechanism..  but that is still a URI, not a different mechanism
[09:04:27] <Barry Leiba> in queue
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[09:08:59] <rsalz> mnot
[09:10:58] <rsalz> Oops, sorry Mr Lennox
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[09:11:14] <Jonathan Lennox> rsalz: No worries
[09:11:14] <rsalz> Last slide, "Next Steps"
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[09:11:25] <rsalz> Alexey
[09:11:47] <rsalz> Barry Lieva
[09:11:50] <rsalz> er, Lieba
[09:12:20] <resnick> Er, Leiba. (“i before e except after Leiba”)
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[09:13:03] <rsalz> adam roach
[09:13:04] <rsalz> phb
[09:13:59] <rsalz> NEW TOPIC
[09:14:06] <Barry Leiba> Thanks, Pete.  Spelink iss improtant.
[09:14:38] <rsalz> Video Delivery in Hybrid Networks https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-99-dispatch-video-delivery-in-hybrid-network/00/
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[09:15:04] <rsalz> Roni Evan presenting
[09:15:16] <rsalz> p2 Multiplatform Distribution for Video
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[09:15:29] <rsalz> p3 The Diversity of IP distribution
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[09:17:38] <rsalz> The impact of Diversity p4
[09:17:46] <John Klensin> @Meetecho: good audio and video, but smoe-switching has disappeared as have the slides.
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[09:18:22] <Meetecho> John Klensin: can you elaborate what you mean by "smoe-switching"?
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[09:18:34] <Meetecho> (sorry, my English skills stop right there :) )
[09:19:01] <rsalz> @meetcho, I'm a native speaker and I don't think it's English :)
[09:19:07] <tale > It escaped my English skills as well
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[09:19:12] <Meetecho> both speaker video and slides should be there though
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[09:20:39] <rsalz> What can IETF do?
[09:20:46] <mnot> WWIETFD?
[09:20:55] <tale > A question for the ages.
[09:21:01] <John Klensin> @Meetecho: the icons in the upper right of the screen are (with the exception of "Leave" and "info" grayed out.  And audio just disappeared again.
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[09:21:12] <Barry Leiba> I thought it was "WWPD" (Postel)
[09:21:18] <mnot> tale: s/s/d/
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[09:21:59] <Meetecho> John Klensin: mh, looks like an inconsistent state of some sort. You may want to rejoin then, sorry about that...
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[09:22:09] <rsalz> Magnus
[09:22:26] <Meetecho> If you can make a screenshot and send it to us via mail later on that would help debug it
[09:22:46] <John Klensin> Sorry, typing error. meant "mode switching"
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[09:24:08] <rsalz> Keith Moore
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[09:26:12] <rsalz> NEW TOPIC  Open Mic
[09:26:51] <rsalz> Folker Berg (?) from "pretty easy privacy"
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[09:27:41] <John Klensin> @Meetecho: ack.  Still no audio -- going to try leaving and then coming back
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[09:29:50] <rsalz> Matthew Miller
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[09:30:06] <Cullen Jennings> You can find links for  pEp at https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/saag/current/msg07789.html
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