IETF
dnsop
dnsop@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, March 24, 2015< ^ >
each has set the subject to: DNSOP meeting, IETF 91 Honolulu, 2014-11-11
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[19:54:28] <hillbrad> hi, alec
[19:55:02] <alecmuffett> Hey Brad!  No end of fun and games trying to remember how to set up XMPP
[20:00:45] <hillbrad> I find the .m3u streaming to be almost as fun. I know it's early, but often the audio streams are continuous… it it working for you?
[20:01:32] <alecmuffett> I tried the video and it had not started, but the audio might work in ... iTunes ?
[20:02:00] <hillbrad> used to, probably the stream is not up at this time
[20:02:26] <alecmuffett> http://ietf92streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf923.m3u => The requested URL /ietf/ietf923.m3u was not found on this server
[20:03:16] <alecmuffett> a little clicking around suggests that all the audio stream links are broken ?
[20:04:02] <alecmuffett> Might be me, though; checking.
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[20:07:42] <hillbrad> wouldn't be the first time, probably won't be the last time
[20:07:58] <alecmuffett> No, it’s me.  Proxy is dropping the request.
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[20:08:10] <alecmuffett> dig dig dig...
[20:08:24] <hillbrad> perhaps I am in the same boat
[20:08:27] Jared Mauch has set the subject to: 2015-03-24
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[20:09:02] <Jared Mauch> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/92/agenda/dnsop/
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[20:15:43] <alecmuffett> Audio at http://icecast-ietf.conf.meetecho.com:8000/gold.mp3 seems to work; the .M3U file received from the site seems to contain a double-slash which breaks the GET
[20:15:58] <alecmuffett> I just pointed my browser at it
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[20:16:23] <hillbrad> thanks!
[20:16:34] Dan York 2 has set the subject to: DNSOP at IETF92
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[20:20:48] <Dan York 2> Audio sounds great
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[20:20:56] <Dan York 2> Singing?
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[20:21:46] <bortzmeyer> No singing but XMPP congratulations are OK? Happy birthday, Suzanne!
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[20:22:32] <Jared Mauch> Agenda Bashing/discussion
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[20:23:05] <alecmuffett> The streaming audio at http://icecast-ietf.conf.meetecho.com:8000/gold.mp3 is *very* good quality.  
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[20:25:50] <Jared Mauch> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-qname-minimisation-02
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[20:27:19] Jared Mauch has set the subject to: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsop/agenda
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[20:28:49] <Jared Mauch> Questions?
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[20:29:27] <Jared Mauch> Paul Hoffman at the mic, concerns on the list, benefit of better privacy for less data collection
[20:30:32] John Levine joins the room
[20:30:45] <Jared Mauch> Matthijs Mekking - DYN at the microphone, if the goal is privacy of users, we should use the aggressive method of minimizing QNAME exposed
[20:31:19] <Jared Mauch> Evan Hunt - ISC - No need to describe the lazy method as the goal is privacy
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[20:32:03] <Jared Mauch> Oleksander Tsaruk - Ukraine -
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[20:32:44] <Jared Mauch> For IDN domains, is there a consideration of these domains?
[20:33:45] <Jared Mauch> Consensus in the room is privacy over data collection
[20:34:11] <Jared Mauch> Suzanne: Do you have the input you need?  Stephane: Yes
[20:34:31] <Jared Mauch> Now discussing:
[20:34:31] <Jared Mauch> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-root-loopback-01
[20:34:37] <Jared Mauch> Paul Hoffman presenting
[20:35:57] <bortzmeyer> Decision for QNAME minimisation: https://github.com/bortzmeyer/my-IETF-work/issues/11
[20:35:58] <Jared Mauch> Goal: Informational RFC
[20:37:44] <Jared Mauch> Trying to avoid BCP to have it evolve into worst current practice by announcing the space
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[20:39:13] <Jared Mauch> Geoff Houston - Design question - why are you loading two DNS resolvers in the box between these boundaries
[20:39:14] Dan York joins the room
[20:39:45] <Jared Mauch> Warren Kumari - If you set it up with the nameserver authorative for root, it doesn't do dnssec validation.
[20:40:37] <Jared Mauch> Bill Manning - I think this is a reasonable document to proceed as informational.
[20:40:45] <Jared Mauch> Bill - it certainly isn't best practice
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[20:42:16] <Jared Mauch> Now discussing - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoffman-dns-terminology-02
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[20:43:27] <Jared Mauch> When DNS term is used in two different ways, we should document for clarity purposes, goal is not to be "DNS" police
[20:43:40] <jelte> what is glue? baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more
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[20:44:37] <Jared Mauch> Bill Manning @ MIC:
[20:45:32] <Jared Mauch> Would this be better served as an IANA registry?
[20:45:37] <Jared Mauch> Room: No
[20:45:49] <Jared Mauch> Andrew Sullvain: Expletive Deleted *no*
[20:46:19] <Jared Mauch> Please look at this document, if there is something controversial lets remove it and publish something as soon as possible
[20:46:35] <Jared Mauch> we can publish other and new documents subsequently
[20:47:19] <Jared Mauch> Joel Jaegli - consider the population of the room is 1/3 of active participants on ietf@
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[20:47:43] <Jared Mauch> Paul Hoffman - other WGs are going to want something similar
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[20:48:06] <Jared Mauch> Tim Wicinski - If we do adopt, we will immediately do WGLC
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[20:48:44] <Jared Mauch> Now discussing - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ogud-dnsop-acl-metaqueries-00
[20:50:04] <Dan York 2> Starting a presentation with an analogy to make it understandable... :-)
[20:50:19] <Jared Mauch> Some people don't like answering certain questions, we would like to do the same to the DNS to avoid breakage
[20:51:31] <Jared Mauch> tell us what to write so it's not harmful
[20:51:55] <Jared Mauch> suzanne: please don't go away, we want to document operational practice
[20:52:27] <Jared Mauch> paul wouters, red hat - do these types of queries break dnssec
[20:52:31] <Suzanne Woolf (co-chair)> just my opinion though, can't force people to work on a document if they don't want to. We seek guidance.
[20:52:48] <Jared Mauch> evan hunt: the idea is if the zone is signed, you could return an answer saying there is no ANY type available
[20:53:23] <Jared Mauch> if we do "NO DATA" it may poison some caches
[20:53:33] <Jared Mauch> NULL is a record type, it's already specified
[20:53:46] <Jared Mauch> any nondefined type code would be acceptable
[20:53:55] <Jared Mauch> paul hoffman: Do we think it's ready for adoption?  I don't think so
[20:54:05] <Jared Mauch> Motivation section is wrong
[20:54:26] <Jared Mauch> I am hesitant to hook the RRSIG in the same bucket as "i don't want to give anything specific"
[20:55:15] <Jared Mauch> If you send an RRTYPE, it should be signed
[20:55:41] <Jared Mauch> Gudmundsson: Depends if you have online signing
[20:56:06] <Jared Mauch> Evan Hunt: If we do one of these last two things, it would be unsigned, and you respond with covering NSEC/NSEC3
[20:56:30] <Jared Mauch> ralph weber: the last one looks most reasonable, new RTYPE
[20:56:43] <Jared Mauch> peter denic: problem is not well specified
[20:57:07] <Jared Mauch> we are in boundary between policy and protocol
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[20:57:19] <Dan York 2> "at the boundary between policy and protocol" - nice phrase
[20:57:21] <Jared Mauch> we do have precedent some servers don't respond to all queries, AXFR as an example
[20:58:00] <Jared Mauch> peter - motivation needs to be much clearer
[20:59:09] <Jared Mauch> Joe Abley: on motivations - what i heard was some people block certain QTYPES, not to explain why or what policy, but if you do, how to communicate to clients
[20:59:42] <Marcus Grando> Mic: I think the point is about do not answer queries are wrong directed to my servers and invalid Qtype/Qname. And with that in mind, make sense to me just drop query. Think about a huge DDoS attack with a large number of not need to be answerd queries
[20:59:48] <Jared Mauch> peter - how much can we specify things that happen outside the protocol
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[21:00:06] <Jared Mauch> peter - we need to define how broken things should be with rules
[21:00:33] <Jared Mauch> marcoz sanz - denic - the correct answer for your use case is RCODE=5
[21:01:00] <Jared Mauch> Ed Lewis - this discussion started with ANY queries, now metaqueries
[21:01:14] <bortzmeyer> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg17503.html (cannot find the actual draft)
[21:02:08] <Jared Mauch> Ed: how do you respond to something that's not RCODE=0 (OK)
[21:02:27] <Jared Mauch> Ed: do you try all your resolvers or terminate asking
[21:03:21] <Jared Mauch> Gudmundsson: most resolvers, when they get something not RCODE0/3 they try another server
[21:03:30] <Jared Mauch> Ed: perhaps we need to codify the RCODE behavior
[21:03:57] <Jared Mauch> Joe Abley: two works: how clients should behave to RCODES, and server side behavior
[21:05:00] <Jared Mauch> Stuart - I agree with understanding motivation, to ensure it doesn't turn into recommendation
[21:05:14] <Jared Mauch> stuart - NULL would be wrong, it means NULL type vs NULL content
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[21:05:51] <Jared Mauch> mark andrews: I've been thinking about this for years, we return NOTIMP
[21:06:16] <Jared Mauch> mark andrews: there is no good answer
[21:06:56] <Jared Mauch> We likely need a new RCODE that could be cached
[21:08:18] <Jared Mauch> new RCODE could have a per-zone policy
[21:08:51] <Jared Mauch> Ralph: We are talking about documenting what people are doing today
[21:09:17] <Jared Mauch> Now discussing - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mekking-mixfr-01
[21:11:02] <Jared Mauch> drawback: new signature, new salt, can be quite large
[21:13:24] <bortzmeyer> Or BitBorrent :-)
[21:13:31] <bortzmeyer> Torrent (sorry)
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[21:14:55] <Jared Mauch> is this worthwhile persuing?
[21:15:07] <Jared Mauch> more people find useful
[21:15:12] <Jared Mauch> humming was heard
[21:15:45] <Jared Mauch> humming was heard for in charter
[21:16:35] <Jared Mauch> Andrew Sullivan at mic: I think this work is in charter
[21:16:35] <jelte> sounds like people may need a working group for additions to dns. extensions, if you will.
[21:17:00] <joel jaeggli> we could call it dns ext
[21:17:21] <Suzanne Woolf (co-chair)> Thanks, Joel. Not what I wanted for my birthday :)
[21:17:36] <jelte> ohyeah grats, suzanne!
[21:17:36] Dan York 2 leaves the room
[21:17:49] <Dan York> Ha!  Good one, Joel
[21:18:03] <Jared Mauch> Andrew Sullivan: this working group is chartered to work on it
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[21:18:39] <Jared Mauch> Suzanne: please comment and provide input, let us worry about machinery
[21:18:41] <jelte> ...and dprive still doesn't know what it wants to do :p
[21:18:48] <ajsaf@jabber.org> To expand on what I said at the mic, we should not allow the machinery to get in the way of the work, and AFAICT this WG is already chartered for this, so please just do some work :)
[21:19:42] <Dan York 2> ajsaf@jabber.org: Agree that MIXFR seems to be in scope for DNSOP.
[21:20:32] <Jared Mauch> https://tools.ietf.org/agenda/92/slides/slides-92-dnsop-10.pdf
[21:21:38] <alecmuffett> Hello from London.
[21:21:52] <Jared Mauch> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-appelbaum-dnsop-onion-tld-00 being discussed
[21:21:54] <Suzanne Woolf (co-chair)> Hi Alec
[21:22:09] <Jared Mauch> https://tools.ietf.org/agenda/92/slides/slides-92-dnsop-8.pdf
[21:22:32] <marka> REFUSED + SOA + AA=1 might be one additional way to signal that this is refused at the zone level.
[21:23:31] <joel jaeggli> use your bitcoin far to generate readable hashes?
[21:23:46] <alecmuffett> Nope.  Custom software, several implementations
[21:23:54] <alecmuffett> Ran on spare CPU
[21:24:06] Peter Koch joins the room
[21:25:26] <joel jaeggli> sure
[21:25:45] <joel jaeggli> vanity hashes sounds like a fun business
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[21:26:25] <Jared Mauch> i had a coworker who wanted to brute a known crypt() and then just learn the password, that way he would always know the crypt()
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[21:30:35] <Jared Mauch> Stuart from Apple - I think this is appropriate use, we are curators of protocol and name-reservation
[21:30:54] <Jared Mauch> Stuart - there is value in having this do DNS and Name resolution in a consistent way
[21:31:53] <Jared Mauch> Suzanne - Before we continue w/ mic line, in order to get to documents we promised time to, lets get through initial discussions for questions and comments
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[21:32:20] <alecmuffett> Mobile implementations of Tor (Orbot) are moving to a VPN- rather than a SOCKS- implementation, so orthogonality across browsers per Stuart’s comment will be increasingly important
[21:32:38] <alecmuffett> We will need new certs in place Before Oct 1
[21:32:44] <alecmuffett> so a grace period would be good
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[21:32:51] <Jared Mauch> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chapin-additional-reserved-tlds-02
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[21:33:29] <Suzanne Woolf (co-chair)> sorry this wasn't more clear— this is why we're planning an interim; we could easily spend the rest of the meeting time on this topic. I will buy beer for the speakers we've been unkind with
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[21:33:51] <Jared Mauch> https://tools.ietf.org/agenda/92/slides/slides-92-dnsop-9.pdf
[21:33:52] <alecmuffett> Suzanne: thank you :-)
[21:34:06] <rbarnes > Suzanne Woolf (co-chair): i will take you up on that :)
[21:34:11] <Suzanne Woolf (co-chair)> :)
[21:34:48] <Jared Mauch> No, you should be buying her birthday presents :)
[21:35:03] <hillbrad> lol, 2013
[21:35:41] <Dan York 2> And so at this rate will the next version reserve....... 1?
[21:36:20] <bortzmeyer> Dan York 2: he did not say why the specific 3 were choosen. Traffic at the root?
[21:36:56] <Jared Mauch> I think Warren is next - https://tools.ietf.org/agenda/92/slides/slides-92-dnsop-5.pdf
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[21:37:14] <Dan York 2> bortzmeyer: I've seen research coming out of the collision work that these 3 were important.
[21:37:34] <hillbrad> more background on the impact: https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/hill-smith-to-chehade-crocker-15mar13-en.pdf
[21:37:34] <Jared Mauch> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-dnsop-alt-tld-04
[21:39:04] <Suzanne Woolf (co-chair)> one of the questions for the interim and future discussion: ICANN has committed to not delegating these names anyway, under ICANN policy processes. It would be good to fully understand the implications of also reserving the same strings in the IETF.
[21:40:20] <ajsaf@jabber.org> @Suz: all of them?
[21:40:52] <Suzanne Woolf (co-chair)> It's all about the names….
[21:41:00] <ajsaf@jabber.org> Or you mean the ones in the Chapin and McFadden draft?
[21:41:09] <Suzanne Woolf (co-chair)> yes, sorry
[21:41:12] <Jared Mauch> We're all about the names, about the names, about the names, no trouble
[21:41:41] <Jared Mauch> We are planning a meeting to be devoted to this purpose
[21:41:49] <liman> This is the 192.168.0.0/16 of the DNS! :-)
[21:41:58] <ajsaf@jabber.org> yes, it is
[21:42:10] <Jared Mauch> Peter Denic - one of your observations is people like TLDs, now you're giving them a second level domain
[21:42:12] <Jared Mauch> Warren: Yes
[21:42:12] <alecmuffett> this is like the USENET alt.* hierarchy, but less broadcast.
[21:42:13] <marka> remember these all need insecure DNSSEC delegations
[21:42:34] <Jared Mauch> *gripe* now we need the .alt sub-domain registry
[21:42:39] <ajsaf@jabber.org> @mark: yes, but that'd be true of any TLD you make up too
[21:42:44] <ajsaf@jabber.org> no, we don't need that registry
[21:43:00] <ajsaf@jabber.org> because the random TLD stuff isn't registered no
[21:43:01] <ajsaf@jabber.org> w
[21:43:45] <marka> root -> name needs to insecure for all the names considered in these 3 presentations
[21:43:46] <Jared Mauch> Brian Dickson - Should 6761 imply something like AS112
[21:43:59] <marka> this is missing from the drafts
[21:44:17] <Jared Mauch> mark, IMHO since they publish the SW, they could just include a cert
[21:44:21] <Olafur> Is .alt going to need ICANN like manager like ALTCAN :-)
[21:44:23] <Jared Mauch> and run a CA
[21:45:13] <ajsaf@jabber.org> onion doesn't need to be delegated to AS112
[21:45:14] <alecmuffett> “.onion” requires adoption more than AS112, I think
[21:45:16] <marka> some of these are requiring local nxdomain generation.  This only works if there is a insecure delegation.
[21:45:20] <alecmuffett> because SSL
[21:46:19] <Jared Mauch> John Levine - history of newsgroups/usenet here, doesn't work in theory and works in practice
[21:46:50] <Weiler> @John Levine: at least among people who have been around the net for 20+ years?
[21:47:05] <Jared Mauch> warren: this could live under an actual delegated domain that returns NXDOMAIN
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[21:47:45] <Jared Mauch> ?? RIPE NCC - it seems like a good idea, but doesn't solve the problem.
[21:47:53] <Suzanne Woolf (co-chair)> That's Kaveh Ranjbar
[21:48:14] <Jared Mauch> warren: to get a use name, you need IESG or standards track
[21:48:21] <Jared Mauch> many names are legacy names
[21:48:56] <Jared Mauch> Richard Barnes: Mozzila - generally a fine idea, describing it as unmanaged may not be a great idea
[21:49:21] <Jared Mauch> might be helpful to provide tools to avoid conflicts
[21:50:52] <Jared Mauch> ?? - 6761 doesn't necessarily mean top level domains, onion.net would not solve the problem
[21:51:03] <Suzanne Woolf (co-chair)> one of my questions has to do with grandfathering names that people have started using because they do like things that look like TLDs….not sure it scales.
[21:51:16] <Jared Mauch> .alt as a playground seems like a good idea
[21:52:21] <wseltzer> speaking is Stuart Cheshire
[21:52:42] <Jared Mauch> (thanks)
[21:52:46] <Jared Mauch> trying to capture everything
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[21:53:18] <Jared Mauch> Andrew Sullivan at the mic - someone just suggested there be a registration protocol for ALT space, do you want IANA registry for names managed by IETF, and another registry for names managed by ICANN?
[21:53:38] <liman> I fear this WG is trying to re-invent the DECnet Phase V nameing convention ... :-)  NAMESPACE:.tld.sld.thirdlvl
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[21:54:28] <Jared Mauch> john levine: in the spirit that anyone can do anything, if someone runs a registry that would be ok
[21:54:35] <Jared Mauch> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-dnsop-cachesurvey-00
[21:54:45] <Jared Mauch> https://tools.ietf.org/agenda/92/slides/slides-92-dnsop-4.pdf
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[22:01:34] <Jared Mauch> KAREN!
[22:02:10] <Karen ODonoghue> JARED!
[22:02:26] <Jared Mauch> Paul Hoffman at the mic - one question - most people don't consider the cache and recursive different, how often are these emergency servers used?
[22:03:05] <Jared Mauch> They were used last year in August
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[22:03:50] <Jared Mauch> Ralph Weber - Nominum - have you measured improvement from this process?  how would this work if random names are asked that are not cached
[22:04:14] <Jared Mauch> cache only stored historically visited domains
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[22:06:00] <Jared Mauch> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fujiwara-dnsop-nsec-aggressiveuse-00
[22:06:26] <Suzanne Woolf (co-chair)> I hope to see the last quesiton answered on the list, I too would like to understand the answer
[22:07:17] <Jared Mauch> JPRS - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bX8eem_H1o
[22:08:02] <Jared Mauch> Suzanne, I got the impression it was they kept the popular names in the cache, if you ask for something that isn't available, you will likely get SERVFAIL
[22:08:32] <Suzanne Woolf (co-chair)> the question of the DOS risk was the one that seemed to call for beer.
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[22:11:08] <Jared Mauch> John Levine - 5782 - i described blacklists
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[22:13:45] <Jared Mauch> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/92/slides/slides-92-dnsop-7.pdf
[22:16:44] <Jared Mauch> myself at the mic: if they sent back TRUNCATE, did they give the right answer after truncate?  
[22:17:07] <Jared Mauch> Mark Andrews: was checking response to option only
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[22:22:57] <Dan York 2> and so the meeting is over, eh?
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[22:23:10] <jelte> thanks scribe!
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[22:23:29] <Alec Muffett> thanks all!
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