IETF
DNSSD
dnssd@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, November 2, 2015< ^ >
Dave Thaler has set the subject to: DNSSD WG at IETF 92
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[05:40:31] <timc@jabber.dev.ja.net> test
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[06:19:42] <Tim Chown> hi. audio stream seems good.
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[06:20:04] <Meetecho> just as a FYI for remote attendees, if you have any issue with remote audio or video, just mention us and we'll be automatically alerted so that we can look into it
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[06:22:41] <Tim Chown> meetecho also seems good :)
[06:22:51] <Meetecho> cool!
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[06:23:01] <Tim Chown> oops, i mentioned them :)
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[06:26:48] <Suzanne (scribe)> Hi all
[06:26:56] <Suzanne (scribe)> Chairs' slides done, now to the threats draft
[06:27:35] <Dave Thaler> the flicker is very annoying
[06:27:46] <Suzanne (scribe)> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-dnssd-1.pdf
[06:27:56] <Tim Chown> meetecho - can you do anything bout the slide flicker?
[06:27:58] <shane_kerr> Apple technology. ;)
[06:28:09] <Tim Chown> oh its in the room too?
[06:28:19] <shane_kerr> Yes. It was flickering here. Done now. Also for you?
[06:28:26] <Tim Chown> ok now
[06:28:34] <Meetecho> yep, we mirror whatever's on the beamer
[06:28:42] <Tim Chown> ok, thanks :)
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[06:31:52] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide now is "resource exhaustion", no slide numbers (Note to self: ask folks to put slide numbers on their presos)
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[06:33:35] <shane_kerr> There's a danger that if the beamers aren't working that talks could become a lot more interesting. ;)
[06:33:37] <Suzanne (scribe)> Andrew Sullivan at the mic
[06:34:21] <Suzanne (scribe)> Concerns about the terminology— unclear as to the environment/scope meant
[06:34:40] <Suzanne (scribe)> local DNS as a different system to the global DNS
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[06:35:04] <Suzanne (scribe)> local DNSes may not be consistent with each other or public space
[06:35:33] <Suzanne (scribe)> threat as a consequence of having multiple overlapping namespaces
[06:36:06] <Suzanne (scribe)> Don: howto express this problem in the draft?
[06:36:08] Andrew Sullivan joins the room
[06:36:33] <Dave Thaler> (Doug)
[06:36:50] <Suzanne (scribe)> Thanks Dave (I think I got that right!)
[06:36:57] <Dave Thaler> :)
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[06:38:27] <Suzanne (scribe)> Andrew: needs to be clear that we're talking about separate namespaces— not the same zone in split-view BIND, for instance
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[06:40:17] <Tim Chown> "one has the little moustache" !
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[06:42:06] <shane_kerr> Andrew Sullivan's next draft: https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--utvH6cLm--/17jai5py8fgnnjpg.jpg
[06:42:30] <Suzanne (scribe)> (STW: I think he's saying that the namespaces wouldn't be any more separate if they had different names; it's purely an accident, with no meaning except what's imposed from outside, that the names are "the same")
[06:42:57] <Suzanne (scribe)> Paul Hoffman at the mic
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[06:43:22] <Suzanne (scribe)> amplifying Andrew's point as mixing namespaces as source of security threats
[06:44:07] <Suzanne (scribe)> Doug: namespaces do mix in some campus/enterprise environments
[06:44:19] <Andrew Sullivan> Note that my point was in fact deeper — that split-view in BIND is in effect a different namespace — effectively, a different root, though with a lot of automatic synchronisation between them
[06:45:23] <Suzanne (scribe)> @Andrew— just not catching it all in realtime
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[06:47:04] <Suzanne (scribe)> Paul/Doug: is this just an enterprise rather than internet problem?
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[06:47:59] <Suzanne (scribe)> Ran Atkinson at the mic— agreeing with Paul and Andrew— document is confusing on this point and needs rewrite
[06:48:41] <Suzanne (scribe)> Andrew Sullivan— further clarification on the point he attempted before; not agreeing that enterprise space is out of scope
[06:50:04] <Suzanne (scribe)> "This is what happens when you have a split-brain root. It hurts when you do that."
[06:51:22] <Suzanne (scribe)> Doug: agrees this is dangerous and scary, how to write security considerations?
[06:51:59] <Suzanne (scribe)> Andrew: "If you don't want the risks of playing with rotating knives, don't do this."
[06:52:23] <Suzanne (scribe)> Ralph: pursue this on the list and work on how to capture it
[06:52:43] <Suzanne (scribe)> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-dnssd-3.pdf
[06:52:46] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart Cheshire
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[06:54:04] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide 2: changes
[06:54:32] <Tim Chown> :)
[06:54:47] <Suzanne (scribe)> glorp….switching slides, Stuart is talking from this deck: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-dnssd-4.pdf
[06:55:24] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide2: changes (to the right draft this time)
[06:57:11] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide 3: ready for WGLC?
[06:58:36] <Suzanne (scribe)> Ray Bellis speaking
[06:59:11] <Suzanne (scribe)> Doug Otis at the mic
[07:00:29] <Suzanne (scribe)> Hard to follow the question, sorry
[07:01:46] <Suzanne (scribe)> Question about large responses and congestion control
[07:02:15] <Suzanne (scribe)> and how push copes
[07:02:40] <Tim Chown> the last topic in the session is about optimisation
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[07:05:43] <Suzanne (scribe)> chairs: asking for examples to discuss on the list
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[07:06:30] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart speaking, https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-dnssd-3.pdf (dnssd-hybrid)
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[07:06:58] <Suzanne (scribe)> now depends on PUSH instead of LLQ
[07:07:55] <Suzanne (scribe)> -02 forthcoming,Stuart will take additional input and ship in the next day or so
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[07:08:18] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide 3, planned changes
[07:10:18] <Suzanne (scribe)> Andrew Sullivan: measurements on effective TTLs from Dyn, no one cares about TTLs < 30s, Stuart it talking about <10s
[07:10:39] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart: target networks for this— enterprise not internet
[07:11:14] <Suzanne (scribe)> So enterprise nets can actually make decisions about this, more control than public internet
[07:11:40] <Suzanne (scribe)> Tim Wicinski: enterprise environment pay attenton to TTL
[07:12:32] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart: DNS service discovery uses DNS protocol but a litte differently; when assorted devices are announcing themselves, etc. the network is more dynamic
[07:13:12] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dave Thaler: +1 to Andrew/Dyn data: for reference unless you change it TTLs are pegged to >30s
[07:13:22] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart: rady for WGLC?
[07:14:17] <Suzanne (scribe)> Ralph: any questions/coments re: WGLC before we do it formally on the next rev?
[07:14:34] <Suzanne (scribe)> Markus (?) at the mic
[07:14:53] <Dave Thaler> yes Markus Stenberg I think it's spelled
[07:15:00] <Tim Chown> yep
[07:15:01] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart: yes there's a downref if we send this to IESG before PUSH is sent
[07:15:22] <Tim Chown> was just discussing same with ralph - hopefully can, er, push push :)
[07:15:38] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart: We'd like for this to work in our new building….which means ourvendors need to have it
[07:16:43] <Suzanne (scribe)> Andrew Sulivan: 6s, 10s, etc. — any chance of having some experiments to see if these numbers are pegged to reality? The doc is ready fr WGLC
[07:17:22] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dave Thaler: slide with 10s numbers (slide 3)
[07:18:04] <Suzanne (scribe)> printer example: negative caching TTL, why TTL cap for positive answer so low?
[07:18:09] <Mark Andrews> or jumping ssids
[07:18:13] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart: might be a rennumbering event for positive answer
[07:18:38] <Suzanne (scribe)> Markus Sternberg: preferring smaller numbers
[07:18:48] <Tim Chown> services on mibie devices is an interesting question
[07:18:55] <Tim Chown> *mobile
[07:19:03] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart: need a response from the printer 5-30 sec
[07:19:39] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dave Thaler: suggesting text on the caching of TTLs with a little more of the reasoning for different values
[07:20:16] <Tim Chown> sounds good
[07:20:17] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart: push the new draft, a couple more days and then WGLC? Sounds good to the chairs
[07:20:53] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dave Thaler, presenting https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/slides/slides-94-dnssd-2.pdf
[07:21:42] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide 2 and "some interesting things that we found"
[07:23:02] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide 3
[07:26:21] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide 4
[07:26:24] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide 5
[07:26:57] <Suzanne (scribe)> "multicast over wifi is much less reliable than unicast"
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[07:28:36] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide 6
[07:31:12] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide 7
[07:31:55] <Andrew Sullivan> This approach is giving me hives
[07:32:14] <Andrew Sullivan> But in an admiring way
[07:32:26] <Suzanne (scribe)> That's really hard to imagine, might be easier later in the week tho
[07:32:36] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide 8
[07:34:15] <shane_kerr> Definitely requires some thought.
[07:34:26] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide 9
[07:36:42] <Suzanne (scribe)> slide 10
[07:36:50] <Andrew Sullivan> Clearly the hives are a recurring problem
[07:37:07] <Suzanne (scribe)> is IETF/WG interested in working on this?
[07:37:35] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dave is willing to resurrect the draft, co-authors accepted
[07:37:59] <Suzanne (scribe)> @Andrew sarcasm too?
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[07:38:27] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart at the mic: no knowledge of any of this, happy to hear aboutrouters that only forward mDNS tho
[07:39:21] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart: unicast responses already partially suported
[07:39:36] <tjw> We should just document the way of deploying a hierarchical service rolled out only in TXT records
[07:39:39] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dave: codemight, spec doesn't
[07:40:16] <Suzanne (scribe)> discussion now is specifics of implementation vs.spec
[07:41:11] <Suzanne (scribe)> bursts based on assumption that multicast is far more expensive than unicast
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[07:42:16] <shane_kerr> Stuart thinking like a protocol designer. The Alljoyn guys probably just saw a problem and a solution. :)
[07:42:51] <Tim Chown> mic
[07:43:05] <Suzanne (scribe)> Ralph Droms
[07:43:15] <Suzanne (scribe)> @shane +1
[07:43:34] <Suzanne (scribe)> The packet bursts seem like a bad idea (tm)
[07:44:38] <tjw> We should hold a contest to find the most structured data  deployed in TXT records.
[07:44:40] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart: different devices/different attribues (e.g. printer quality) so single bit not enough
[07:45:20] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dave: back to slide 6
[07:45:32] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart re: data in TXT records
[07:46:20] <Suzanne (scribe)> Samita Chakrabarty
[07:46:39] <shane_kerr> @tjw: you can do IP-over-DNS, so I think anything is possible.
[07:47:25] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dave: is this problem interesting, do we want to solve it here
[07:47:52] <Suzanne (scribe)> Ralph: seems there's interest in talking about the problems, no time today to determie which specific problem of the 3 on slide 10 to tackle
[07:48:21] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart: author has moved on, Dave says Microsoft is interested in developing things?
[07:48:39] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dave": we're not interested in incompatible implementations
[07:48:46] <Suzanne (scribe)> currently there are two
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[07:49:18] <Suzanne (scribe)> Microsoft is driving for interoperability here, others happy to follow
[07:49:29] <tjw> @shane ++++++++++
[07:49:31] <Suzanne (scribe)> (back and forth Ralph & Dave)
[07:50:18] <Suzanne (scribe)> There's running code, it could be better with a better spec
[07:50:38] <Suzanne (scribe)> Stuart: not a lot of energy for solving the problem by itself, but if we want to ship code, interested
[07:50:43] <Suzanne (scribe)> Dave: we want running code to be better
[07:51:22] <Suzanne (scribe)> Andrew SUllivan: on third issue, filters— question of whether to do this in a more extensible way; ;shared .local names an "attractive nuuisance"
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[07:51:51] <Suzanne (scribe)> Terry Manderson as AD: charter says document these problems, solutions off charter
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[07:52:22] <Suzanne (scribe)> Ralph: WGLC on next rev of hybrid proxy; that will then wait on PUSH, which Stuart will revise, WGLC when we have interoperable implementations
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[07:52:33] <Suzanne (scribe)> Once both WGLC are done, Terry's problem
[07:52:41] <Suzanne (scribe)> threats doc needs more work to be adopted
[07:52:55] <Suzanne (scribe)> WG will discuss what to do with concepts in the doc Dave presented.
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[07:53:17] <Tim Chown> breakfast time :)
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[07:53:48] <tjw> Tim #2 returning to original mode
[07:53:59] <Tim Chown> thanks again!
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[09:13:30] <explorer> Morning.
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