IETF
dtn@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, April 4, 2016< ^ >
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
[12:16:20] Brian Sipos joins the room
[12:38:01] Meetecho joins the room
[12:56:43] Fred Templin joins the room
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[12:59:39] Scott Burleigh joins the room
[13:00:48] <Fred Templin> I am not hearing any audio ... ?
[13:00:59] Brian Sipos joins the room
[13:00:59] <John Dowdell> me neither
[13:01:05] <Scott Burleigh> Nor I.
[13:01:44] Brian Sipos_5630 joins the room
[13:02:05] Rick Taylor joins the room
[13:02:15] <Scott Burleigh> I'm new to Meetecho.  Where is the unmute button?
[13:02:24] Brian Haberman joins the room
[13:02:35] Rick Taylor leaves the room
[13:02:51] Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan joins the room
[13:03:04] Ed Birrane joins the room
[13:03:23] Brian Sipos leaves the room
[13:03:37] <Brian Sipos_5630> hummmmm
[13:03:39] <Fred Templin> Looks like you just click on the microphone symbol. But, it doesn't seem to do anything...
[13:03:58] <Scott Burleigh> Where is that?  I don't see one.
[13:04:12] <Ed Birrane> Checking on the audio now,
[13:04:30] <Ed Birrane> Did anyone hear the sound check
[13:04:37] <Scott Burleigh> No.
[13:04:50] abdussalam Baryun joins the room
[13:04:57] <Brian Sipos_5630> I tried Meetecho for the first time yesterday. I had to use an alternate audio driver (tool buttons on top-right of page) to get sound working yesterday.
[13:05:24] <Ed Birrane> Brian, do you hear sound
[13:05:52] <Brian Sipos_5630> unfortunately I do not
[13:06:03] Rick Taylor joins the room
[13:06:33] <abdussalam Baryun> Hello
[13:06:40] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> I clicked on the microphone and webcam icons on the top right hand corner of this chat window, next to my name. The icons turned green. But, I am unable to get the audio yet.
[13:06:49] <Ed Birrane> This might be a general meetecho problem.
[13:07:01] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> I am unable to get the audio stream as well.
[13:07:07] <Ed Birrane> The "meetecho people" are looking at it now.
[13:07:15] <Meetecho> looking into it, just a sec
[13:07:21] Brian Sipos_5630 leaves the room
[13:07:23] Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan leaves the room
[13:07:35] Abdussalam Baryun joins the room
[13:07:36] Abdussalam Baryun leaves the room
[13:07:49] Lorenzo Miniero joins the room
[13:07:53] abdussalam Baryun leaves the room
[13:07:59] Brian Sipos joins the room
[13:08:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> working on the audio feed
[13:08:33] <Brian Sipos> I'm going to abandon meetecho for now and try using mp3 stream+jabber
[13:08:41] <Meetecho> audio should be back
[13:08:41] <Scott Burleigh> I just heard something.
[13:08:43] <Meetecho> can you hear it?
[13:08:56] <Meetecho> Scott try unmuting again
[13:09:24] Abdussalam Baryun joins the room
[13:09:27] Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan joins the room
[13:09:32] <Meetecho> sorry meant Kapaleeswaran
[13:09:39] Brian Sipos_6933 joins the room
[13:09:41] <Meetecho> Kapaleeswaran can you hear something now?
[13:09:45] Lorenzo Miniero leaves the room
[13:09:53] Lorenzo Miniero joins the room
[13:09:59] <Ed Birrane> Meetecho: Also, please note that the video shown is for the wrong room.
[13:10:05] <Scott Burleigh> WHERE?  I don't see a microphone symbol.  My name doesn't appear in the list of participants.
[13:10:06] <John Dowdell> Changed to HTML5 audio on Chrome, got audio but it's very quiet
[13:10:35] <Scott Burleigh> Me too, extremely faint.  And I just lost video.
[13:10:36] <Fred Templin> Are we even in the right session? This looks like DMM
[13:10:39] marc.blanchet.qc joins the room
[13:11:00] <Ed Birrane> Video just went down for me, too. Perhaps they are trying to get it the video back to DTN not DMM.
[13:11:22] SAfa almalki joins the room
[13:11:37] Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan leaves the room
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[13:11:39] <Ed Birrane> Video is back, but still the wrong session.
[13:11:41] Coordination Center joins the room
[13:11:58] <Meetecho> there must have been a mixup
[13:12:00] <John Dowdell> Audio level now is up but very noisy
[13:12:01] <Meetecho> sorry working on it
[13:12:03] Abdussalam Baryun joins the room
[13:12:12] <Scott Burleigh> I'm hearing Marc now, though.  Not bad audio.
[13:12:15] <Ed Birrane> We are under Notewell.
[13:12:39] <Scott Burleigh> Much better sound now.
[13:12:50] <Scott Burleigh> BUT HOW DO I UNMUTE?
[13:12:53] <John Dowdell> oh that's much better quality now
[13:13:02] Lorenzo Miniero leaves the room
[13:13:15] <John Dowdell> Scott I think the chairs unmute you
[13:13:56] Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan joins the room
[13:14:12] <Scott Burleigh> Okay.  Whatever.  I'll just wait.
[13:14:15] <Abdussalam Baryun> voice comes and goes
[13:16:06] Coordination Center leaves the room
[13:16:08] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> Yes, I am able to hear. But, video feed not available from conference.
[13:16:24] Abdussalam Baryun leaves the room
[13:16:36] <Scott Burleigh> WHERE IS THE ^%((*&^ UNMUTE BUTTON?
[13:16:58] <Fred Templin> Do you see a red microphone next to your name? Make it green.
[13:17:17] <Meetecho> Scott: have you made a request using the hand icon?
[13:17:34] <Scott Burleigh> Ah.  I'll do that.
[13:18:02] <John Dowdell> Fred I don't see my own name in the participants list. maybe Scott doesn't either
[13:18:04] <Meetecho> Scott: do you need to talk right now?
[13:18:14] Abdussalam Baryun joins the room
[13:18:22] <Meetecho> if so I can grant you from here
[13:18:31] <Scott Burleigh> I am theoretically first on the agenda, so I guess so.
[13:19:05] <Fred Templin> I hear you
[13:19:07] <Brian Sipos_6933> yes, hearing
[13:19:16] <Ed Birrane> I cannot hear Scott.
[13:19:17] <John Dowdell> loud and clear
[13:19:33] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> Yes. Scott.
[13:19:46] <Ed Birrane> Scott can you hear the person talking
[13:19:59] Abdussalam Baryun leaves the room
[13:20:35] <Meetecho> Scott: but were you supposed to present remotely? we were only aware of Kapaleeswaran and Fred as remote presenters in DTN today
[13:20:45] <Meetecho> Paolo is talking from the room
[13:20:50] <Ed Birrane> Scott, you can hear us but we are not hearing you in the room.
[13:20:58] <Ed Birrane> Is that correct?
[13:21:01] <Meetecho> I can hear you in Meetecho
[13:21:08] <Meetecho> maybe it's just a problem in the room
[13:21:14] <Meetecho> we're looking into that
[13:21:20] <Scott Burleigh> Maybe someone else should just present my two slides.
[13:21:21] <Ed Birrane> This might be  volume thing - we can her scott very faintly on the speakers.
[13:21:37] <Scott Burleigh> I just muted.
[13:21:44] <Ed Birrane> Scott, can you talk
[13:21:45] <Rick Taylor> Scott can you keep talking while they fiddle with volume levels
[13:22:07] <Ed Birrane> Got it!
[13:22:17] <Rick Taylor> We can just about here you.. seems to be getting there...
[13:22:29] <Ed Birrane> We are hearing you well
[13:22:41] Abdussalam Baryun joins the room
[13:23:10] Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan leaves the room
[13:23:34] Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan joins the room
[13:23:40] <Rick Taylor> We are using half duplex comms to avoid feedback
[13:23:51] <Ed Birrane> Please start, slides are on.
[13:24:19] Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan leaves the room
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[13:28:00] <Ed Birrane> Can you hear Brian?
[13:28:09] Rafael Silva joins the room
[13:28:50] <Brian Sipos_6933> Yes, I am hearing fine now. Video is flaky, but not a real problem.
[13:28:57] <Rafael Silva> Hello people!
[13:31:16] <Fred Templin> We are seeing the correct video now
[13:31:33] <Ed Birrane> Scott: Comment was can we put CRC bits in the block flags
[13:31:44] Abdussalam Baryun leaves the room
[13:31:46] <Ed Birrane> in reserved bits, so as to not increase size of extension block headers otherwise
[13:32:16] <Scott Burleigh> Of course.  But because we have multiple representations we don't have "block flags", we just have flags.
[13:32:46] <Ed Birrane> Got it.
[13:32:47] Brian Haberman leaves the room
[13:32:56] <Scott Burleigh> But yes, obviously, in the bit-conscious representation we would be bit-efficient with this CRC type.
[13:33:44] Rafael Silva leaves the room
[13:33:47] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> I am getting multiple audio feeds. Unable to understand the audio stream.
[13:33:57] <Scott Burleigh> Meetecho folks, the sound I'm hearing is extremely scrambled and unintelligible.
[13:34:04] <Ed Birrane> Plan is in 2 weeks have a last call, and let the last call run 4 weeks.
[13:34:18] <Ed Birrane> Items like CRC type placement can be handled during last call.
[13:34:24] <Ed Birrane> Scott: Talk through next slide
[13:35:29] Brian Haberman joins the room
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[13:36:04] <Rick Taylor> Thanks for the CBOR work Scott... very valuable.
[13:36:51] <Brian Haberman> Agreed on the CBOR work.
[13:36:56] <Scott Burleigh> Audio is MUCH better now.  Thank you!
[13:39:30] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> I am able to hear Ed and see the slides. There are echos but audio stream is intelligible.
[13:39:42] <Scott Burleigh> Same for me.
[13:39:54] Andrew McConachie joins the room
[13:40:31] <John Dowdell> Are there two microphones on?
[13:40:37] HUB IC/UFAL-Brazil joins the room
[13:41:10] <Brian Haberman> Just one mic on at the front table (the one Ed is using).
[13:42:19] <Fred Templin> Maybe the micro[hone mike and speaker mike are cross-talking?
[13:42:25] HUB IC/UFAL-Brazil leaves the room
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[13:52:24] <Scott Burleigh> I think we affirmed in the last meeting that the payload would always be the last block of each bundle.  That's what the bpbis spec now says.
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[13:54:10] <Scott Burleigh> I agree with losing the first/last block concept.
[13:56:27] HUB IC/UFAL-Brazil leaves the room
[13:57:23] <Brian Haberman> @Scott : Did you hear Will's question?
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[13:57:44] <Fred Templin> We hear audio looping..
[13:57:44] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> There is continuous audio echoo loops. I was unable to hear the question or the answer.
[13:57:52] <Scott Burleigh> Unmuting my microphone hashed the audio, so I don't think I can speak.  The answer is " sort of".  I'm flying to Cleveland later this morning.
[13:58:09] will ivancic leaves the room: Computer went to sleep
[13:58:13] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> audio looping stopped.
[13:58:31] <Scott Burleigh> But now it's back.
[13:58:41] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> audio looping started again.
[13:58:59] HUB IC-UFAL (BR) leaves the room
[13:59:11] will ivancic joins the room
[13:59:31] <Brian Haberman> Still getting a loop?
[13:59:37] <Meetecho> working on that
[13:59:38] HUB IC-UFAL (BR) joins the room
[13:59:38] <John Dowdell> oh yes
[13:59:44] <Scott Burleigh> Yes.  It's bad.
[13:59:58] <Scott Burleigh> Much better!
[14:00:25] <will ivancic> I asked if CMS was a requirement of CCSDS and if so why and could someone from that group educated the IETF group as to why?
[14:00:44] Paolo Saviano leaves the room
[14:00:45] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> Audio looping has stopped.
[14:01:14] Paolo Saviano joins the room
[14:01:15] <Scott Burleigh> Ah.  I don't know.  CCSDS has not reached consensus on this point, as far as I know.
[14:01:30] <Meetecho> is audio ok now?
[14:01:50] <Scott Burleigh> Quality is good, but very heavy echo.
[14:01:53] Mark Allman joins the room
[14:01:59] <Fred Templin> Still ehcoing...
[14:02:14] <Scott Burleigh> Excellent right now.
[14:02:26] <HUB IC-UFAL (BR)> Good afternoon!
[14:02:32] <Scott Burleigh> Really perfect now.  Thank you!
[14:02:39] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> Audio stopped.
[14:02:42] <Scott Burleigh> And now it's lost altogether.
[14:02:51] <Meetecho> fixing that
[14:03:01] <Meetecho> should be back in a few seconds
[14:03:12] <Meetecho> (we're working on the local mixer in the room to fix the loops)
[14:03:16] <Meetecho> should be back now
[14:03:16] <Scott Burleigh> Okay, got it.
[14:03:17] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> Audio feed has started.
[14:03:19] <will ivancic> 1st meeting  of the first day with a new hotel.  Growing pains.
[14:03:19] <Meetecho> (y)
[14:03:30] <Meetecho> tell us about it :)
[14:03:41] <Scott Burleigh> It's very good now.
[14:04:47] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> Am I audible?
[14:04:48] <Fred Templin> I hear you...
[14:04:48] <Scott Burleigh> I hear Kapali.
[14:05:10] Mark Allman leaves the room
[14:05:17] <will ivancic> Keep talking Fred.  We do not here you yet.
[14:05:35] <Meetecho> Kapaleeswaran is talking
[14:05:40] <will ivancic> Yes.
[14:05:46] <Meetecho> (y)
[14:06:07] <Scott Burleigh> Meetecho guys, this is outstanding.  Clear as a bell.
[14:06:46] <John Dowdell> my video and slides have stopped. audio is great though
[14:07:21] <Meetecho> John Dowdell: try rejoining, sorry about that
[14:07:27] <John Dowdell> ok
[14:07:39] John Dowdell leaves the room
[14:07:47] <Meetecho> Scott Burleigh: thanks for your kind words, really appreciated! sorry for the issues so far, hectic first day...
[14:09:28] John Dowdell joins the room
[14:11:26] <HUB IC-UFAL (BR)> Hello people!!!! Are you having problems with your sound?
[14:11:42] <Fred Templin> Better now..
[14:12:00] <Brian Haberman> Audio in the physical meeting room is good.
[14:12:07] <John Dowdell> Switched from Chrome to Firefox, much better
[14:12:39] <HUB IC-UFAL (BR)> all right, thanks for the tips!!! I'm gonna change my browser right now....
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[14:14:01] <Scott Burleigh> I'm on Chrome right now with zero problems though.
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[14:23:19] <Meetecho> Fred Templin: just to make sure, as I'm looking at the agenda, is Kapaleeswaran making the presentation for both of you? or will you still need to present later?
[14:23:47] <Fred Templin> THis is the only presentation for Kapali and myself; I will not be presenting.
[14:24:00] <Meetecho> ack, tnx!
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[14:29:03] <Scott Burleigh> If a Validator is subverted by an adversary, what protects the network?
[14:29:20] <Scott Burleigh> What if a CRM is subverted by an adversary?
[14:32:44] <John Dowdell> Might be better to have a finite lifetime on the root CA to mitigate attack; perhaps recommend lifetime = mission life + a bit
[14:33:23] <Scott Burleigh> A lot of damage could be done during that lifetime, though.
[14:34:31] <John Dowdell> Agree, think Sec ADs would have a problem here
[14:35:31] <Scott Burleigh> I agree.
[14:36:13] <Scott Burleigh> Let's focus on the requirements and constraints for now.
[14:37:58] <Fred Templin> Sounds like we should update the requirements doc?
[14:38:08] <Brian Haberman> And if anyone is really interested in *historical* PKI stuff, feel free to peruse the documents published by PKIX (https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/pkix/documents/)
[14:38:43] <Brian Haberman> I believe the requirements draft is still premature, as Rick said.
[14:39:18] Joseph leaves the room
[14:39:20] <Fred Templin> The reuqirements doc is different than the PKDN doc - we have discussed reqt's in past DTN sessions.
[14:39:54] <Brian Haberman> @Fred : I am referring specifically to key management-related requirements.
[14:40:06] <Fred Templin> Yes - me too.
[14:40:33] Joseph joins the room
[14:41:46] <Brian Haberman> @Fred : right, but Rick's point is that there are aspects of DTN that we haven't worked out that will impact the requirements for key management.
[14:43:10] <Fred Templin> I thought RIck's point was directed to PKDN - we have been discussing key management requirements for a long time now.
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[14:50:30] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> Hi Scot:
[14:50:33] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> If a Validator is subverted by an adversary, what protects the network?  What if a CRM is subverted by an adversary?
[14:51:56] Joseph leaves the room
[14:54:10] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> If a Validator is subverted, then the CRM will need to detect and revoke that Validator. The path for propagating this revocation event can be selected by senders and receivers subscribing their interest with multiple validators. Ideally the Validators must have a higher degree of security than senders and receivers, which are untrusted.
[14:55:06] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> The CRM is an entity on Earth and secured physically. We can reduce trust on the CRM by using digital multisignatures. This would mean that t out of n CRMs will need to agree before a revocation event can be generated. PKDN allows existence of more than on CRMs.
[14:56:14] <Scott Burleigh> I think the potential compromise of Validators and CRMs is problem that needs to be addressed explicitly, but we can't pursue that just now -- I gotta go catch a plane.
[14:56:32] <Scott Burleigh> Bye, all.
[14:56:51] Carles Gomez joins the room
[14:56:51] <Fred Templin> Maybe we can discuss on the list
[14:56:51] Scott Burleigh leaves the room
[14:56:51] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> Okay. Have a nice flight. We can have this conversation later.
[14:59:05] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> Question for Ed: Regarding AMA: How can temporal validity of network management information exchanged using AMA be modelled?
[14:59:53] <Ed Birrane> AMP assumes the transport layer provides integrity and security mechanisms.
[15:00:38] <Ed Birrane> Beyond that, time and state based rules can be managed based on their own internals (# periods to persist, numebr of times to fire, whether to disable themselves when firing, etc...)
[15:02:43] will ivancic leaves the room: Computer went to sleep
[15:03:09] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> Sure. The question was on the time validity of network management information. For example, in SNMP log information can be exchanged and such information do not have time validity. While configuration information about remote device can be queried? Such information are of three types: (a) unchanging; (b) very slowly changing; and, (c) fast changing. SNMP does not differentiate between the three because it assumes interactive communications. Such assumption does not exist in DTN. This was the reason for the question. Is it used to explicitly state the time validity of device/network information.
[15:05:14] <Ed Birrane> Ahh.. when I hear validitiy I think integrity validation...
[15:05:38] <Ed Birrane> Time-based rules in the system allow for data to be reported strictly as a function of time.
[15:05:59] <Ed Birrane> State-based rules in the system allow for data to be reported based on state. one state can be to only report a data item when it has changed.
[15:06:27] <Ed Birrane> One could generate an ADM and an operator within that ADM to mark in-situ data that seems to change more often and then report based on that prognostication as well.
[15:06:32] <Ed Birrane> Though that would take some thinking through.
[15:07:51] <Brian Sipos_6933> The AMP provides a coherent syntax to transport configuration/state, but the individual ADMs manage the higher-level meaning of all of the data items.
[15:08:00] <Ed Birrane> I interpret the question to be "How can you keep the system from sending old or useless or the same data over and over again in a system". For operation centers, though, people do want a set of regular helth telemetry from their systems even if the health telemetry does not change.
[15:09:46] <Kapaleeswaran Viswanathan> Yes. That is a fair interpretation of the question. It would be useful to understand the class or type of information that will be the first killer application of AMA in DTN.
[15:10:37] <Brian Sipos_6933> I think being able to compose ADMs (without touching AMP) may be able to provide these kind of semantics.
[15:11:01] <Ed Birrane> A capability I have talked about for some time (and we can probably get there soon) is to say something like "3 out of 5 of our last communications failed their integrity check, so I am going to remove you from my routing list, rotate my keys, and send a report to my operator area. All without an operator in the loop.
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[15:14:42] <Brian Sipos_6933> An ADM which defines *only* operators and controls (no data items) will extend the basic AMP semantics, and will be reusable between actual data-containing ADMs.
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[15:22:14] <Brian Haberman> This neighbor discovery discussion reminds me of the Mister Rogers theme song. ;)
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[15:31:35] <Fred Templin> We have a draft on naming and addressing that has expired. We can revive it.
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[15:34:15] <John Dowdell> Chairs mic went quiet!
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