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[14:07:02] <Dick Hardt> What is the link for the WebEx meeting?
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[14:07:25] <Justin Richer> There is not a webex meeting as far as I'm aware. I believe everything is through MeetEcho.
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[14:07:38] <Leif Johansson> yeah this is all you're going to get
[14:07:50] <roman> https://gce.conf.meetecho.com/conference/?group=gnap&short=&item=1
[14:08:02] <roman> The meetecho link for the meeting
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[14:09:05] <Dick Hardt> hmmm … Meetachio things I am unauthorized
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[14:09:42] <Justin Richer> @Dick you need to sign in with your IETF Datatracker account (using OIDC, might I add!). I think it might need to be the same email address you registered with but I'm not positive.
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[14:09:57] <Marc Blanchet> I think you need to register to be able to get access meetecho
[14:10:50] <Meetecho> You need to be registered to the meeting, and you need a datatracker account
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[14:11:38] <Justin Richer> It's coming and going, Leif. Better audio quality w/o video (I've seen that for others as well).
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[14:12:12] <Justin Richer> @Meetecho can you confirm if it needs to be the same email address for registration and the datatracker account?
[14:12:14] <Leif Johansson> yeah thx
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[14:12:48] <Justin Richer> @Yaron I see your screen
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[14:12:57] <roman> I see the slides
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[14:14:38] <Justin Richer> You can also go directly here: https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-108-gnap?edit
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[14:17:09] <Justin Richer> Thanks Mike and Michael!
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[14:19:21] <Yoav Nir> Ooh. The G is silent?  Good to know.
[14:19:37] <Mike Jones> Your pronunciation may vary
[14:19:47] <cabo> I'll still say it, or I fall asleep
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[14:20:00] <Brian Campbell> YPMV
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[14:20:43] <Yoav Nir> Same way you pronounce the G in gnu.  Whatever that is
[14:21:04] <mcr> "GNAP" is what the evil smurfs yells when they get bit by the tsetse fly.
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[14:21:20] <Dick Hardt_468> I prefer a hard G -- guh-nap
[14:21:22] <Justin Richer> It's pronounced like the "G" in "GIF", like "gift" and "giraffe"
[14:21:43] <Brian Campbell> sorry, I missed the training
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[14:22:06] <Yoav Nir> @justin - you're opening that can of worms?
[14:22:19] <Justin Richer> @Brian I prefer a hard G but don't much care if it's pronounced with a soft "G" by people
[14:22:34] <Kathleen Moriarty> I prefer a hard G too
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[14:22:53] <Mike Jones> Who can post a link to the Smurf GNAP video here?
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[14:23:13] <Justin Richer> @Mike I've got the Smurf in my presentation in a few, I couldn't resist it :P
[14:23:22] <mcr> I tried to google/youtube it, but I can't find the right keywords. I am sure I watched/read that a hundred times.
[14:23:38] <mcr> okay, so maybe you know the title of the episode.
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[14:24:17] <Justin Richer> "The Purple Smurfs" is the episode. I'll post a link I found a while back afterwords so that people don't go off and watch cartoons instead ;)
[14:24:26] <Yoav Nir> So hard G.  Like "gnu"..
[14:24:29] <Yoav Nir> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGVdCGxh1IY
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[14:25:17] <Leif Johansson> the smurfs became purple, originally they were black but that clearly wasn't going to stand the test of time
[14:26:00] <mcr> IPsec had an XAUTH protocol that we never published.
[14:26:23] <Yoav Nir> Yes, but we all implemented it anyway.
[14:26:30] <mcr> I'm just happy that I'm not the only one who made the smurf connection.
[14:27:28] <Leif Johansson> noooo
[14:27:30] <Justin Richer> @mcr it was one of the first things I thought of as well when the suggestion was made! I was also glad that others thought of it, too
[14:27:48] <cabo> Can you say OPTIONS in polite company again?
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[14:33:28] <Brian Campbell> https://youtu.be/GEl8IBv98vg?t=195
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[14:40:55] <Justin Richer> ... this isn't in contrast to XYZ, though?
[14:41:03] <Justin Richer> I'll cover that in my presentation
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[14:42:18] <mcr> what is in contrast to XYZ?
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[14:42:28] <Justin Richer> The callback negotiation portion
[14:43:06] <mcr> Hulk smash guitar!!!
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[15:01:37] <Justin Richer> Yeah you have to request audio separately, it's confusing
[15:02:13] <Meetecho> Justin Richer: permission are separated because there are people who prefer to send audio only (no video) and there are use cases when video only is desired as well (chair hovering)
[15:02:22] <Meetecho> It's all explained in a video tutorial we recorded and shared
[15:02:34] <Meetecho> And in the documentation available on the IETF website
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[15:04:51] <tobcast> just FYI, if you are from firefox or chrome you can choose to share just an app
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[15:12:20] <mcr> back in 5min.
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[15:14:54] <Yoav Nir> If QUIC can call themselves HTTP/3, might as well call it OAuth 3.  But then why a new WG?
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[15:15:39] <Justin Richer> @Yoav QUIC didn't start as being called HTTP/3, that came a lot later with coordination from the HTTP WG. Nothing would stop us from doing that here too if we wanted, in the future. New WG is because OAuth WG is also still doing a lot of work today.
[15:16:40] <Yoav Nir> @Justin  Understood.  Here it looks like we're revving OAuth right from the start
[15:17:17] <Stefan Santesson> Calling it OAuth 3 is probably wise if you expect implementations to migrate in the future.
[15:17:37] <Aaron Parecki> @Yoav except that work is still being done at the moment to continue to improve OAuth 2
[15:18:13] <mcr> call it GNAP 3, and rename it OAuth 3 at the last minute, if appropriate.
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[15:19:10] <Yoav Nir> Lots of work being done on HTTP/2 too
[15:19:19] <Stefan Santesson> I'm thinking of parallells to OCSP vs SCVP. It was a huge mistake to not work on OCSPv2. But the comparison probably is not really relevant here.
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[15:21:03] <Stefan Santesson> But the choice to create a new protocol with a new name made many organizations ignore the new protocol.
[15:21:13] <Justin Richer> ... I hate drawing ASCII diagrams, sorry :sweat_smile: I agree they're really needed
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[15:21:29] <Aaron Parecki> @Justin asciiflow.com!
[15:21:39] <Justin Richer> @aaron you and your fancy tools...
[15:21:43] <Justin Richer> (I'll check it out)
[15:22:51] <Roman Danyliw> @Kathleen: Thank you for this detailed analysis to facilitate our conversation
[15:23:07] <Kathleen Moriarty> Happy to do it!
[15:23:11] <Justin Richer> @Kathleen thank you!
[15:23:50] <mcr> I use asciio. I'm annoyed that it can't put into my makefile.
[15:26:25] <Roman Danyliw> Mic not working
[15:26:26] <Roman Danyliw> Hold on
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[15:27:14] <Kathleen Moriarty> Give people a few minutes, yes a test would be good.
[15:27:32] <Roman Danyliw> My mic should work now
[15:29:08] <Robert Moskowitz> And we should be looking at new crypto tools and not just 20 yearold HMAC.
[15:31:09] <Yoav Nir> @Robert New crypto tools to do what?
[15:31:39] <Robert Moskowitz> HMAC is 2 hashes.  KMAC is a single sponge hash.
[15:32:39] <Justin Richer> @Robert I'm happy for that to move forward, my knowledge on hash related functions is limited.
[15:32:46] <Robert Moskowitz> And SHAKE and cSHAKE exactly provide the number of bits needed without debates about how to truncate a hash.
[15:32:51] <Yoav Nir> Sure. There are more modern primitives.  SHAKE is one
[15:33:00] <mcr> ex why ZED :-)
[15:33:16] <Robert Moskowitz> Both FIPS 202 and SP800-185 are really good in explaining the new functions.  IMHO.
[15:34:08] <Roman Danyliw> @Ben: Having to re-do ACE would be unfortunate if we can resolve it now
[15:35:07] <Kathleen Moriarty> ACE wouldn't necessarily need to be redone if the same considerations have already been baked in with COSE
[15:35:11] <Yoav Nir> @Robert Yes, but is it in OpenSSL?  And more important: is it in that 5-year-old version of OpenSSL that is FIPS certified (for some value of "certified")
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[15:36:38] <Robert Moskowitz> that is a problem.  It is in.  Or at least SHAKE is there and cSHAKE and KMAC are functions of SHAKE.  But old versions are old versions.  Probably why we are still seeing P-384 instead of Edwards Curves.
[15:38:26] <Justin Richer> +1 to Carsten, this should be in our mind as we design it
[15:39:55] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> SHAKE and KMAC will be in openssl 3.0, which will have a shiny new
FIPS certificate any year now
[15:40:40] <Kathleen Moriarty> How about a call on the list then if not a hum?
[15:41:02] <Justin Richer> The hum tool seemed to work in DISPATCH this morning
[15:41:10] <Kathleen Moriarty> It worked in SACM too
[15:41:20] <Robert Moskowitz> We are doing SHAKE right now with openSSL for DRIP testing.  Adam is having to do his own cSHAKE in his python script.
[15:42:58] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Maybe it's just me, but I've been losing the first couple hundred
milliseconds of Kathleen's audio stream when she starts sending
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[15:43:03] <Brian Campbell> I think that maybe the lack of pushback is b/c there's some surprise
[15:43:15] <Kathleen Moriarty> Brian, speak up then
[15:43:29] <Brian Campbell> that the suggestion wasn't something more along the lines of Roman's last option
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[15:46:47] <mcr> ( i feel like we are done )
[15:47:25] <Kathleen Moriarty> How is progress made?  What are the next steps if no pulse is taken?
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[15:48:36] <Mike Jones> If this was an in-person meeting, lots of people would be at the microphone at this point and we'd be having a vigorous discussion.  I think that remote participation is hindering that occurring.
[15:49:04] <Mike Jones> I spoke up.  Others should as well - no matter what your views are!
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[15:53:02] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> If I read the schedule properly we are nominally out of time, right?
[15:53:26] <Justin Richer> Yes we are out of time a few minutes ago
[15:53:26] <Kathleen Moriarty> Please do consider readability and don't merge the styles.
[15:54:27] <Mike Jones> I was asking to graft in some features - not change styles
[15:54:37] <Kathleen Moriarty> Great, that
[15:54:44] <Kathleen Moriarty> 's what I was hoping for
[15:54:45] <Leif Johansson> yeah we're out of time
[15:55:06] <Marc Blanchet> RDAP (in regext) has a draft using oauth and openid connect for authorization. I highly suggest that you contact the author (Scott Hollenbeck) as it could be a good use case for gnap.
[15:55:11] <Justin Richer> @Mike Yes, I agree that it would be fairly easy to graft in XAuth features to XYZ as Kathleen suggested.
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[15:55:43] <Mike Jones> All I was going to say was that if there's a design team, I'm willing to participate
[15:55:53] <Marc Blanchet> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hollenbeck-regext-rdap-openid
[15:55:55] <Aaron Parecki> whoever is causing feedback please mute
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[15:56:13] <Pete Resnick> That's Bob.
[15:56:18] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Bob, can you mute?
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[15:56:27] <Pete Resnick> Or the chairs can remove him.
[15:56:53] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Sadly, my AD powers are no good here and I couldn't just mute him
myself
[15:57:20] <Justin Richer> Thank you everyone!
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[15:57:41] <Roman Danyliw> Thank you!
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[15:57:53] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> See you on the list!
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