IETF
IASA 20
iasa20@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, July 18, 2017< ^ >
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
[13:29:40] Yoshiro Yoneya joins the room
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[13:55:23] <m&m> Hello all.  I'll be your jabber scribe.  If you have something you'd like said in the room, please preface it with "mic:"
[13:55:49] <ted.h> Wait, 6 authors?  What will the RFC editor say?
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[13:58:28] <ted.h> Rejected options:  schismatic church, resistance movement, and cabal.
[14:00:29] <Barry Leiba> Let Donald Trump run it all.
[14:01:07] Leslie Daigle joins the room
[14:01:45] <ted.h> @Barry Father or son?
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[14:01:49] <John C Klensin> Ted, some of these "administrative staff" options sound a lot like "cabal", so I'm not sure that has been rejected.
[14:01:54] <Alissa Cooper> can't believe the DT didn't consider that option
[14:03:02] <John C Klensin> Father might nominate Daughter and then add a few comments we don't allow in the IETF
[14:03:10] <ted.h> General document feedback  (the room salutes)
[14:03:24] <JoeHallCDT> ha!
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[14:06:00] <m&m> JORDI at mic
[14:07:46] <m&m> Bob Hinden at mic
[14:10:43] <John C Klensin> +1 to Bob's comments.  And W3C isn't nearly as good an example, pick ITU or, to a slightly lower extent, ISO/IEC JTC1.  
[14:11:00] <m&m> John C Klensin: would you like that expressed at the mic?
[14:11:11] <m&m> Ted hardie at mic
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[14:11:30] <John C Klensin> IMO, we should be aiming toward more community decisions, less IAOC independently, rather than shifting toward "more staff, less IAOC, even less community".
[14:12:49] <John C Klensin> @m&m: I don't think it is important right now, Bob said much of it, Ted is saying the rest, and the queue looks long
[14:13:10] m&m nods
[14:15:10] <m&m> Leslie at mic
[14:18:38] <m&m> Jonnie Soininen at mic
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[14:19:41] <ted.h> So it has been, it is, and so it shall be.
[14:19:45] <ted.h> Unless we make some other change.
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[14:23:53] JoeHallCDT is keeping notes in a pad
[14:24:17] <m&m> ekr at mic
[14:24:53] <John C Klensin> MIC: following up on several recent comments, I think the most frequent difficulty with IASA/IAOC so far has lack of transparency to the community and the appearance of making strategic decisions _for_ the community, rather than focusing on determining and reflecting community consensus.  Perhaps others don't care but, if "we" do, we should be concentrating on changes that would fix (or improve on) that problem and then evaluate proposed solutions on the basis of how they would improve or pessimize things.  Some of that reinforces Jonnie's comment, of course.
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[14:26:11] <m&m> in line
[14:27:20] <m&m> Randy at mic
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[14:29:24] <m&m> Tobias at mic
[14:29:44] <Andrew Sullivan> Since I don't know whether anyone has said this in the room this is not for mic, but @John: while I have a lot of sympathy for what you're saying, there remains also the problem that the IASA does need to make decisions sometimes, and not all of those can be done in consultation with the community in time.
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[14:30:26] <Andrew Sullivan> So there needs to be some way to balance the "consult and do what community wants" in favour of "understand and channel" in such cases
[14:30:46] <Andrew Sullivan> and I think that the latter is often what is really wanted
[14:31:04] <Andrew Sullivan> that is, "the community" has a "Do What I Mean" problem just as bad as many of our protocols
[14:31:34] <m&m> Brian Rosen at mic
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[14:33:16] <resnick> Tobias and Andrew both made the same (incorrect, IMO) conflation: transparency is different than consultation.
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[14:33:29] <Andrew Sullivan> I'm not making that conflation at all
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[14:33:58] <John C Klensin> @Andrew: Yes.  But the more IASA needs to make decisons and move on (FWIM or not), the more it is important that the community be kept informed about those decisions in timely and meaningful ways (something we've had good years and bad years with) and that the IAOC feel, and be, accountable to the community for getting things right an acceptable fraction of the time.
[14:34:04] <Andrew Sullivan> I was responding to John's "and the appearance of making strategic decisions _for_ the community, rather than focusing on determining and reflecting community consensus"
[14:34:30] <m&m> Jari at mic
[14:34:57] <Andrew Sullivan> I believe very strongly in the transparency goal, and I think that is a real problem too, but let's not tie that up with "determine what the community wants", which is a separate issue
[14:35:13] <resnick> @ajs: I don’t believe addressing that part requires “consultation”.
[14:36:29] <m&m> Gonzalo at mic
[14:36:31] <Andrew Sullivan> @pete: ok, but then when IASA inevitably gets it wrong eventually, people will be annoyed that it didn't consult and then the various individuals involved may go into the Crouch of Defensiveness in which I'm sure I at least was sometimes found .
[14:37:17] <Randy Bush> iaoc/iad have been in the CoD for a decade
[14:37:34] <Randy Bush> and this leads to the lack of transparency
[14:37:38] <m&m> Ray at mic
[14:38:17] <Andrew Sullivan> @Randy: I am not going to comment on the posture of others.  But I am reasonably confident you're right that it can cause a default opacity
[14:38:40] <Randy Bush> been there.  had to fight against it.
[14:39:49] <resnick> That’s what needs reversing: With sufficient transparency, “annoyance” can be kept to a minimum.
[14:40:04] <m&m> Jason Livingood at mic
[14:40:31] <Andrew Sullivan> I think the idea that transparency is a silver bullet is clearly (ha!) overoptimistic.
[14:40:38] <Barry Leiba> Girl?
[14:40:49] <Andrew Sullivan> Sunlight is an excellent disinfectant, but it is not magic.
[14:41:23] <resnick> @ajs: No delusions here. General disinfecting is what is required, not elimination of all disease.
[14:42:02] <Randy Bush> aside worth mentioning: relatively higher proportion of women in room.  can we hope for a changed decision culture?
[14:42:25] <resnick> @ajs: There is a level of panic that folks seem to have in the face of “getting it wrong” that leads to the CoD.
[14:42:26] <m&m> Ted Hardie at mic
[14:43:21] <m&m> I think that analogy got away from Ted
[14:43:24] <Andrew Sullivan> @pete: ok, but imagine you're a recently-appointed IAOC (or ++/board/&c) member, and you're faced with a nasty decision on a topic of confidentiality and you are paranoid about disinfection.  The decision won't get made.  That's bad too
[14:43:49] <Andrew Sullivan> or worse, in our current terms, the decision will be made by staff with no effective oversight, if it's a strategic one
[14:44:37] <m&m> Jonnie at mic
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[14:46:19] <ted.h> s/Jonnie/Jonne/
[14:46:25] <m&m> ta
[14:47:00] <m&m> Leslie at mic
[14:47:49] <JoeHallCDT> I thought we did that with the workshops and report?
[14:48:07] <resnick> @ajs: I understand the problem. “Paranoia” is not a good feature.
[14:48:17] <m&m> Jonne at mic
[14:48:27] <m&m> Lucy at mic
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[14:50:00] <m&m> meeting adjourned
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[14:50:28] <John C Klensin> @Andrew: and that "worse" is actually what I'm most concerned about.  Ray's model works if the CEO is really in active touch with the community and both she and the IAOC are accountable enough that it just doesn't turn, in practice, into IAOC avoids responsibility by passing things to the CEO and the CEO is accountable to little more than her sense of the community.
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