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[12:44:32] <suehares> Hi Hohn and Jeff.
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[13:09:57] <Jeff Haas> /topic IDR IETF 107
[13:10:19] Jeff Haas has set the subject to: IDR IETF 107
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[13:23:04] <Robert Raszuk> Just reiterate Jeff's comment changing NLRI format without new capabilities or new SAFI does not go that well with any AFI/SAFI ... not just FlowSpec
[13:23:35] <John Scudder> Robert do you want to make your comment on the mic, or do you want me to relay it?
[13:24:06] <Robert Raszuk> Well you can relay it .. I thougth jabber is equal class citizen :)
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[13:25:54] <Robert Raszuk> Thx
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[13:42:47] <Warren Kumari> Am I the only one who wishes that "large" vs "wide" was more descriptive? I always have to do the "errmnmmm… was large the Job one, or … um… "
[13:43:12] <adrianolddog> Can we have "deep"?
[13:43:40] <John Scudder> "humongous" "bigly"
[13:43:47] <aretana> Large, wide, extended…deep is also good! ;-)
[13:44:23] <adrianolddog> "'tis not so deep as a well, nor so wide as a church door"
[13:46:05] <Warren Kumari> Rock climbing has the adjectival grading:     •    Easy (rarely used)
    •    Moderate (M, or "Mod")
    •    Difficult (D, or "Diff")
    •    Hard Difficult (HD, or "Hard Diff" – often omitted)
    •    Very Difficult (VD, or "V Diff")
    •    Hard Very Difficult (HVD, or "Hard V Diff" – sometimes omitted)
    •    Mild Severe (MS – often omitted)
    •    Severe (S)
    •    Hard Severe (HS)
    •    Mild Very Severe (MVS – often omitted)
    •    Very Severe (VS)
    •    Hard Very Severe (HVS)
    •    Extremely Severe (E1, E2, E3, ...)
Perhjaps we need the same for communites? Narrow, Wide, Very Wide, Large, Very Large, Extreme Very Large, etc?
[13:47:42] <adrianolddog> Are you calling my community fat?
[13:48:58] <John Scudder> Rubenesque communities
[13:49:24] <Toerless Eckert> VLIW ?
[13:49:49] <Warren Kumari> Yo community is so fat… <insert random here>
[14:00:55] <aretana> FYI..  Port 179 is already reserved for TCP, UDP and SCTP.
[14:01:42] <aretana> https://www.iana.org/assignments/service-names-port-numbers/service-names-port-numbers.xhtml?search=bgp
[14:08:33] <Jeff Haas> Warren, what's the bmp for discovery piece?  I'm behind in email.
[14:10:08] <Warren Kumari> This was a discussion around Q: "What all things do people generally configure on their sessions?!" A: "Many things, including BMP" Q: "Oh. Perhaps we should consider including BMP paramters?!" A: "Maybe. Lets punt on that for now and discuss later..."
[14:16:59] <Jeff Haas> Ah. That touched the "should things like bfd get bootstrapped by this as well"
[14:17:39] <Toerless Eckert> if its not called BGP autoconfig anymore but scoped broader…
[14:18:00] <Jeff Haas> Agreed, Toerless.
[14:18:16] <Jeff Haas> Toerless, for CBOR, did it ever add primitive types like IP address?
[14:18:44] <Jeff Haas> I recall I had a narrow set of issues that I saw when reviewing CBOR the first time that made it inappropriate for some routing contexts.
[14:20:27] <Jeff Haas> The other was around how the format made skipping malformed subcomponents tricky, but I no longer recall the detail.
[14:36:04] <Joel Halpern> Thanks Ketan.  I was trying to get my head around whether this was really trying to embed point-to-point requests into BGP.  And apparently not even restricting it to the BGP neighbor.
[14:37:00] <Jeff Haas> This sort of thing keeps trying to get reinvented periodically.  Usually by people in bess
[14:38:06] <adrianolddog> Oh, those terrible people in BESS
[14:38:34] <Jeff Haas> That's what we get for saying "go invent your weird bgp things somewhere else"
[14:40:43] <Toerless Eckert> jeff: i think CBOR simply uses bitstrings of specific length for addresses. Its's not attempting to be rich typing, but as simple as possible.
[14:40:46] <dhruvdhody> Maybe PCEP over BGP  and call it a day!
[14:41:11] <Jeff Haas> Dhruv: nah. pcep gets it more right than bgp, sometimes.  c.f. flowspec encoding. :-)
[14:41:15] <dhruvdhody> <not speaking as PCE co-chair, of-course>
[14:41:22] <Joel Halpern> Should John's summary end up in the Etherpad?   (Not sure what we are using for minuting here.)
[14:41:32] <Jeff Haas> Add it, Joel.
[14:41:35] <Warren Kumari> …. and John achieves British levels of understatement….
[14:41:35] <John Scudder> Please do.
[14:41:53] <Toerless Eckert> jeff: should be easy to pull a CBOR expert into a meeting to quickly solve those questions
[14:43:29] <ketant> Doing PCEP within BGP is going to be very complicated indeed ;-)
[14:43:31] <Jeff Haas> Toerless, your comment on the ddl made me queue it for reading.  I looked at it for general routing encoding a while back and those were the two things that popped to the top.  I think for routing uses, the lack of fundamental types for IP addresses and prefixes is hazardous.  The length issues, I need to figure out what my concern was but my high level memory is that it doesn't handle the usual malformed packet cases we regularly saw in bgp
[14:46:25] <adrianolddog> I've been struggling for a while with the functional split between PCEP and BGP because of the (un)natural tendency to try to push everything into every protocol. I think the transactional nature of functions and the ephemeral nature of state are the things to think about.
[14:46:52] <adrianolddog> BGP-LS just about gets away with it because it is "just pushing ephemeral state"
[14:51:49] <Jeff Haas> toerless, your private message responses from me are getting rejected
[14:52:53] <Jeff Haas> Adrian, aside from the "trying to (unnaturally) stuff everything into everything", I tend to see BGP as a way to carry active state around the network.  It's a lousy way to do any form of negotiation or event triggers.
[14:53:33] <Jeff Haas> PCEP has seemed like a reasonable way to do state injection, although I'm too far removed from it to understand the vagaries of how it wants to interact with the various underlying protocols.
[14:54:19] <Toerless Eckert> jeff: hmm. didn't want to junk the channel with stupid questions, not meant to be secret. can you try again ? i added you as contact… stupid jabber… ?
[15:27:11] <Warren Kumari> … its built in the name...
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[15:39:27] <suehares> + 1 on active state in BGP..  BGP was built to compress and delay.
[15:48:14] <suehares> Joell - I'm on jabber while John works on presentaiton - what did you think needed to go to the minutes?
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[15:58:18] <Joel Halpern> Sue, I put in what I felt was critical.
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