IETF
intarea
intarea@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, 5 November 2012< ^ >
marka has set the subject to: INTAREA: Where to Go for Discussion
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[18:04:45] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 1: intarea wg IETF85
[18:04:51] <Alessandro Amirante> Current presenter: Chairs
[18:04:51] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 1: intarea wg IETF85
[18:05:01] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 2: Agenda
[18:05:04] Wes George joins the room
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[18:05:21] <Lorenzo Miniero> FYI, for an integrated view of the jabber room, slides and audio/video from the room, there's a Meetecho room available http://www.meetecho.com/ietf85/intarea
[18:05:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> If you already are in the jabber room, please use a different display name when joining the Meetecho room
[18:05:33] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 3: WG documents (1)
[18:05:36] Margaret Wasserman joins the room
[18:05:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> If you're just interested in slides and audio/video, grab your popcorn and open this link :) http://atlanta.conf.meetecho.com/WebLite/event.jsp?w=intarea
[18:05:40] dthaler joins the room
[18:05:53] <dthaler> chairs going through doc status
[18:05:58] <Margaret Wasserman> Hi. I am in another meeting, but I am watching this window so I will know when to come there to present.
[18:06:06] <danyork> Thank you, dthaler, for scribing
[18:06:20] <dthaler> draft-ietf-intarea-nat-reveal-analysis completed 2nd WGLC
[18:06:24] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 4: WG documents (2)
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[18:06:54] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 5: Call for reviews(1)
[18:07:07] <Margaret Wasserman> Were there any changes to the agenda during agenda bashing?
[18:07:10] <dthaler> no
[18:07:20] <dthaler> need reviews of ipv4-addr-saving
[18:07:29] <Ole Troan> Minutes are being taken here: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/intarea/minutes
[18:07:35] <Ole Troan> Please volunteer to help out.
[18:07:57] <dthaler> slides are at http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/slides/slides-85-intarea-0.pdf
[18:07:58] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 6: Call for reviews(2)
[18:08:05] <Wesley George> this is wes, I have reviewed previous versions and continue to review updates
[18:08:39] <dthaler> need reviews of draft-carpenter-flow-label-balancing from people familiar with operational issues with load balancing
[18:08:46] <Alessandro Amirante> Presentation stopped
[18:09:36] <dthaler> next is http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/slides/slides-85-intarea-3.pptx on IPID Update
[18:09:42] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 1: Updated Specification of the IPv4 ID Fie
[18:09:46] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 2: Quick review
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[18:10:05] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 3: Key changes
[18:10:26] <Alessandro Amirante> Current presenter: Chairs
[18:10:27] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 3: Key changes
[18:10:35] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 4: Other changes
[18:10:47] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 5: Status
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[18:11:39] <dthaler> Brian Haberman (semi-responsible AD): add discusses cleared, comment is just recommendation to add a few sentences
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[18:11:46] <dthaler> s/add/all/
[18:11:52] <Alessandro Amirante> Presentation stopped
[18:12:02] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 1: ALFI: Adaptation Layer Fragmentation Ind
[18:12:03] <dthaler> next is http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/slides/slides-85-intarea-1.pdf on ALFI
[18:12:18] <Alessandro Amirante> Current presenter: Carsten Bormann
[18:12:19] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 1: ALFI: Adaptation Layer Fragmentation Ind
[18:12:31] <dthaler> Carsten sent new slides a few minutes ago so the copy posted will be out of date
[18:13:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Fragmentation is bad
[18:13:59] <dthaler> unreliable wireless link with small packet sizes
[18:15:19] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Applications often have a choice
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[18:16:47] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Terms
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[18:17:45] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Packet delivery rate
[18:17:55] <dthaler> switching to new slide set...
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[18:18:45] <dthaler> Slide 5: Packet deliver vs fragmentation
[18:18:50] <dthaler> delivery
[18:19:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Packet delivery vs. fragmentation
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[18:19:34] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Header compression
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[18:21:17] <dthaler> Suresh Krishnan: why not ignore compression for the numbers?
[18:21:41] <dthaler> Carsten: it does make a difference
[18:21:49] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: ALFI
[18:22:50] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Protocol
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[18:25:53] <dthaler> Dave Thaler: Hop-by-hop options don't work across the Internet, so would only work within a local area at best
[18:26:26] <dthaler> Dave Thaler: is use case across Internet or only within local area?
[18:26:36] <dthaler> Carsten: would like it to work across Internet too if possibly
[18:26:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: TBD
[18:26:42] <dthaler> Dave: hop-by-hop options don't.
[18:27:56] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 10: Do we want to do this?
[18:30:17] <dthaler> Jari Arkko: don't assume local. So focus on techniques that work across Internet or at least some router hops. Also why can't you ask locally at L2 rather than at internet layer
[18:30:40] <dthaler> Carsten: the issue might be at the 2nd hop not the first hop
[18:32:00] <dthaler> Jari: some RADIUS systems send small packets quickly but longer packets have to wait, so similar.
[18:32:15] <dthaler> Carsten: this is for anything that can be expressed by a+N*b
[18:32:26] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Packet delivery vs. fragmentation
[18:32:50] <dthaler> Cui: why is frag bad?
[18:33:22] <dthaler> Carsten: (showed slide 5), MTU is low so very noticeable
[18:33:59] <dthaler> Peter McCann: could adaptation layer do retransmissions?
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[18:34:21] <dthaler> Carsten: yes, improves but not enough since you don't want to do persistent retransmissions
[18:34:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentazione interrotta
[18:35:08] <dthaler> Suresh: asks Jari to start thread on intarea list to kick off discussion
[18:35:25] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rafiee-
[18:35:34] <dthaler> next up http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/slides/slides-85-intarea-2.pdf
[18:35:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Agenda
[18:36:22] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Introduction
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[18:37:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Brief description of TSIG (RFC 2845)
[18:39:03] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: What CGA-TSIG aims to do (problem target
[18:39:10] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Brief description of TSIG (RFC 2845)
[18:39:41] <dthaler> Francis Dupont: example at bottom of slide 4 is specific to BIND, not server implementation independent
[18:40:19] <Andrew Sullivan> Francis is right about the particular syntax, but Hosineh is right that TSIG is fundamentally shared key
[18:40:27] <dthaler> Hosnieh: it worked with the other one we tried
[18:40:27] <Andrew Sullivan> so you need to configure it somewhere
[18:40:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: What CGA-TSIG aims to do (problem target
[18:40:46] <Andrew Sullivan> (Not going to mic because it's too hard to crawl out)
[18:40:47] <dthaler> @Andrew: yes
[18:42:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Why it is necessary
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[18:43:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Is it a local solution or global solutio
[18:45:07] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: This slide depicts changes made to versi
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[18:46:34] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: Questions asked
[18:48:19] <dthaler> Erik V: TSIG is not linked to an IP, but a name.
[18:50:07] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 11: CGA algorithm
[18:50:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 12: CGA-TSIG message format
[18:50:24] <dthaler> CGA parameters passed in-band, so it can work
[18:50:46] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 11: CGA algorithm
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[18:52:25] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 12: CGA-TSIG message format
[18:52:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 11: CGA algorithm
[18:53:28] <dthaler> Suresh: how change address?
[18:53:53] <dthaler> Dave: slide said server caches public key from first exchange, and subseuqent updates use same key
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[18:54:36] <dthaler> Jari: privacy goes away if attacker can observe changing of IPs associated with same name
[18:54:51] <dthaler> ??: why TSIG and not SIGO
[18:55:00] <Andrew Sullivan> SIG(0), actually
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[18:56:44] <dthaler> (I missed answer)
[18:56:58] <Andrew Sullivan> I couldn't hear it either
[18:57:30] <danyork> I heard that she had checked algorithms of DNSSEC and TSIG
[18:58:04] <Andrew Sullivan> Well, a real reason not to build on SIG(0) is because nobody has deployed it because it massively increases cost on the server side
[19:00:35] <danyork> No need to relay, but I agree that the draft could use better use cases to better explain the problem it is seeking to solve.
[19:02:54] <Andrew Sullivan> I think this author could be helped by pointing that out on the list, particularly if you say, "In this spot an explanation of the use case would help a lot."
[19:04:07] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 12: CGA-TSIG message format
[19:06:01] <danyork> Andrew - Good point. I may do that, as I have another concern with the draft that the "Security Considerations" section of the draft is in fact talking about use cases instead of looking at security considerations of the algorithm being proposed. I'll send that to the list.
[19:07:32] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentazione interrotta
[19:07:49] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Scaling the Address Resolution Protocol
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[19:08:03] <Lorenzo Miniero> Relatore corrente: Tal Mizrahi
[19:08:04] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Scaling the Address Resolution Protocol
[19:08:05] <dthaler> next is http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/slides/slides-85-intarea-4.pdf
[19:08:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: History of this Draft
[19:08:52] <Margaret Wasserman> I will be heading out of here at the next presentation break (~3 minutes).
[19:09:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Background - Multi-site Datacenter
[19:09:50] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Background
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[19:10:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Background – Proxy ARP
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[19:11:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: SARP
[19:12:46] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: SARP Cache
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[19:13:21] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: SARP – Data Plane
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[19:14:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: SARP – MAC Address Tables
[19:14:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: SARP – Data Plane
[19:18:08] <dthaler> Dave Thaler: Why is location in MAC address important?
[19:18:40] <dthaler> answer: IP-D to MAC-E (where MAC-E identifies location site) is fixed, same for all other sites. So if something moves between other sites, the mac entry doesn't change
[19:20:00] <dthaler> Chris ... from bigswitch: what if there's multiple SARP proxies?
[19:20:23] <dthaler> (multiple in parallel, suresh's question was about in series)
[19:20:44] <dthaler> Chris: how can you detect loops since there's no ttl decrement?
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[19:22:09] <dthaler> there's no decrement of TTL
[19:22:15] <dthaler> Ron Bonica: isn't that a fatal flaw?
[19:23:33] <dthaler> Lee Howard: nice slides, it's clear to me. Looks like L2 NAT.
[19:23:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: SARP – MAC Address Tables
[19:23:45] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 10: SARP – ARP Broadcast Domains
[19:24:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 11: SARP over Overlay Network
[19:24:32] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 12: SARP with VM Migration
[19:24:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 13: Next Steps
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[19:31:12] <dthaler> Brian Haberman: 6man doing work on "efficient ND" based on 6lowpan work. Maybe that work is applicable here.
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[19:32:25] <dthaler> Chris L.: rewriting every packet is state and processing, is there a scalability issue there?
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[19:33:20] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentazione interrotta
[19:33:20] <dthaler> take discussion to the list
[19:33:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Security Requirements for Software Defin
[19:33:41] <dthaler> next is Margaret Wasserman http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/slides/slides-85-intarea-5.ppt
[19:34:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: SDN Security Requirements Draft
[19:34:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Security Requirements for SDN
[19:36:26] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Three Classes of Applications (1)
[19:37:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Three Classes of Applications (2)
[19:38:21] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Three Classes of Applications (3)
[19:38:54] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Authentication
[19:39:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Security Requirements (1)
[19:40:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: Security Requirements (2)
[19:41:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 10: Security Requirements (3)
[19:42:07] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 11: Nested Application Security (1)
[19:43:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 12: Nested Application Security (2)
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[19:44:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 13: Nested Application Security (3)
[19:44:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 14: Questions? Feedback?
[19:45:30] <dthaler> Bob Hinden: your model of apps seem to be different from mine. yours are parallel things, not a particular feature. but definitions are a moving target
[19:45:44] <dthaler> Margaret: they're not "SDN" applications unless they do something with the network
[19:47:51] <dthaler> Chris L: people use SDN to slice network, but it's a network virtualization app. But apps like network tapping or distributed load balancer are apps using ythe network. I might put a firewall on top of a network slice. Transitive across more than one step.
[19:49:24] <dthaler> ??: sdn architecture and framework still evolving with openflow
[19:49:40] <dthaler> Margaret: didn't assume specific, could be openflow or forces or something else
[19:49:56] <dthaler> Margaret: different draft we have is openflow specific
[19:50:25] <dthaler> Brian ...?: requirements around controller, what about requirements at other levels?
[19:51:01] <dthaler> Margaret: other aspects aren't fleshed out enough to do a security analysis of
[19:51:14] <dthaler> end of meeting
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[19:51:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentazione interrotta
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