IETF
JMAP
jmap@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, July 16, 2018< ^ >
Room Configuration
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[17:27:59] <Michael McClimon> The slides are upside down in the livestream...
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[17:29:53] <meetecho> Michael McClimon: looks like they're upside down on the projector too
[17:30:22] <meetecho> Not sure if it's a practical joke or an issue though :)
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[17:30:49] <Michael McClimon> Bron said "we're Australian, of course it's upside down!" and that he'd turn it right side up when you got started
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[17:33:41] <meetecho> :D
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[17:34:30] <Ned Freed> Concur with Alexey. Cost low, liklihood of extensions high
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[17:35:14] <Dave Crocker> Registry is infrastructure.  Get it working now, to avoid the transition effort later.
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[17:36:24] <jeffpc> same sort of thing can be accomplished by having a section in the RFC listing all error types
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[17:37:21] <resnick> Your sound is a bit muddy Neil.
[17:37:24] <Dave Crocker> 'a section of the RFC' means that adding a value requires re-issuing the RFC.
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[17:40:22] <Dave Crocker> (Just to add this to the archive.) I've just gone through the process of retroactively creating a registry -- for underscored domain names -- and have been sensitized to the benefit of doing it when initial values are created, rather than long afterward. /d
[17:42:15] <Barry Leiba> Dave: And my experience is that adding the registry later is easy, *provided* we remember to do it right away.  The difficulty comes when several extensions come along and fail to create the registry.  So having the registry ahead of time protects against that.
[17:42:31] <Barry Leiba> In any case, Chris will put in the creation of the registry now.
[17:42:44] <Dave Crocker> ack.
[17:43:32] <progysm> damn it, did I forgot my fivestar notebook at the hotel saturday?
[17:43:46] <Barry Leiba> Eh, wha?
[17:46:54] <fenton> Neil, can you turn off your video?
[17:47:58] <Neil Jenkins> If the server just has the data available, I suggested on the list it just return it
[17:48:13] <Neil Jenkins> Because that might save a spurious request
[17:48:44] <Neil Jenkins> That's fair. OK, I retract that suggestion.
[17:48:49] <Neil Jhaveri> As a client author, I have no problem with requiring a flag. I know computing that count can be expensive... it's been expensive to do so locally in clients I've worked on.
[17:50:17] <Stuart Brandt> Is there a constraint to what "counts" the server should have available? ESEARCH/COUNT opens the door to arbitrary counts which can be tough for a server
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[17:53:30] <resnick> Blech.
[17:53:35] <jeffpc> sorry, I'm not up to speed...
[17:53:55] <jeffpc> wouldn't: [{name:"Friends", email:[...]}, ...] work?
[17:54:07] <resnick> Hack is precisely the word for that group address thing.
[17:54:08] <jeffpc> bleh
[17:54:24] <Barry Leiba> It's all a hack, regardless.
[17:54:25] <jeffpc> I already see an issue with my statement
[17:54:27] <jeffpc> ignore it
[17:54:45] <jeffpc> yeah
[17:55:15] <resnick> I’m not going to interrupt the meeting with this, but what’s the problem with the two level?
[17:55:24] <resnick> Array of array seems right.
[17:55:27] <jeffpc> he mentioned library support
[17:56:00] <resnick> I hate when you lose semantic content that can be properly expressed.
[17:56:16] <brong> resnick: the issue with two level is that the degenerate case (single address) sucks
[17:56:53] <Neil Jenkins> Hmm, advertising as a separate URN but including in base is interesting
[17:56:59] <Neil Jenkins> Chris' suggestion.
[17:57:16] <jeffpc> I'd be afraid of using null-delimiter causing client implementers making buggy clients
[17:57:23] <Neil Jenkins> Yeh, I think that's fine
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[18:02:25] <resnick> I’m with Jeff; I think marking the ends of (hacked) arrays with null entries is bogus and bug inviting.
[18:02:53] <resnick> Consider me in the rough if you really think this has been addressed (no pun intended), but I repeat: Blech.
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[18:04:54] <Neil Jenkins> My connection cut out during that bit of the meeting so I don't know what was discussed; should we come back to this at the end of the meeting? I really don't want nested, but we could go with something like { type: "groupStart", name: "Foo" } ... { type: "groupEnd" }
[18:06:04] <Barry Leiba> Let's revisit it as AOB.
[18:06:31] <Neil Jenkins> (On topic) I prefer wsUrl on the Session Object directly myself
[18:06:39] <Neil Jenkins> But I get the namespacing argument
[18:06:47] <resnick> Why can’t you have nested for group and not nested for single mailbox?
[18:07:41] <Neil Jenkins> At least with my frontend implementation, that would be a more complicated codepath.
[18:09:04] <Neil Jenkins> If no one uses managesieve, do we need it for JMAP:
[18:09:06] <Neil Jenkins> ?
[18:09:37] <Ned Freed> Managesieve defines the semantics for back end sieves. Are these the right semantics or do we want to change something?
[18:10:29] <Neil Jenkins> Following on with Alexey's comment: the trouble is that two clients with UIs to generate sieve will not be compatible
[18:10:37] <Ned Freed> "Edit sieve" begs the question of what it means to edit. There are any number of systems that manage a set of rules that are mapped to sieve.
[18:10:43] <Neil Jenkins> They can't edit the sieve they didn't generate.
[18:10:43] <resnick> {name: “Pete”; email: “pete@somewhere”}
or
{name: “Group”, group: {name: “Pete”; email: “pete@somewhere”}, {name: “Bron”, email: “bron@wherever”} }
[18:10:50] <resnick> That’s unpleasant?
[18:10:54] <Ned Freed> Systems that support full sieve editing are rare
[18:11:17] <Raphaël Ouazana> Sieve handing (even partially would be great)
[18:11:24] <Raphaël Ouazana> Sieve handing (even partially) would be great
[18:14:01] <Raphaël Ouazana> We are
[18:16:27] <Neil Jenkins> Wary of building something we "think" might be useful without anyone that actually wants it.
[18:17:17] <Neil Jenkins> That normally generates a folder of referenced files I think
[18:17:22] <Neil Jenkins> Not one blob
[18:17:40] <jeffpc> IIRC, there was someone in dispatch one or two meetings ago with that proposal
[18:19:59] <resnick> Neil: Apple’s web archive seems to be an XML file of some sort.
[18:22:13] <Neil Jenkins> The only thing that might be interesting is being able to get which MIME parts were matched in the search.
[18:22:26] <Neil Jenkins> Ah, Chris has answered that :D
[18:22:32] <Neil Jenkins> Ah, Chris has answered that :)
[18:23:24] <Dave Crocker> The discussion is assuming that users will know what 'non-text' means.  They won't.  Powerpoint is text in their minds, I suspect.
[18:23:59] <Neil Jenkins> I think it's defined in the spec as MIME type other than "text/*" or "message/*"
[18:24:11] <Dave Crocker> As usual, the IETF needs to keep out of UI design discussions.
[18:25:12] <Dave Crocker> The problem with 'let the server decide' is that it means that users won't know what is being searched.
[18:25:44] <Ted Lemon> If you don't let the server design, you squash innovation
[18:25:50] <Ted Lemon> s/design/decide/
[18:27:12] <Dave Crocker> So the 'let the server decide' approach is explicitly declining to standardize the search behavior.
[18:27:21] <Neil Jenkins> I want a flat list, but don't care too much about the exact format of objects in that list.
[18:27:47] <Neil Jenkins> We can go with a type param instead:
[18:27:49] <Barry Leiba> Dave: I think the discussion has made the point that we can't specify it in a reasonable way: we can only discuss the issues.
[18:27:56] <Neil Jenkins> See higher up (that's my other suggestion)
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[18:28:40] <Neil Jenkins> Nested is more complex. And asking for a server to get it wrong and arbitrarily nest, although RFC5322 says they can't be nested.
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[18:29:15] <Neil Jenkins> No, Neil Jh suggested that. Most common group thing is no addresses in group.
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[18:29:47] <Neil Jhaveri> What about {name: null, email: null, groupName: "undisclosed-recipients"}?
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[18:30:02] <jeffpc> thanks
[18:30:02] <Neil Jenkins> Let's take it to the list :)
[18:30:25] <Neil Jhaveri> sounds good
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[18:30:35] <brong> Thanks everyone
[18:30:48] <brong> I'll write up minutes during the next session
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