IETF
Lurk
lurk@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, April 5, 2016< ^ >
Room Configuration
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GMT+0
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[16:54:48] Yoav Nir has set the subject to: IETF 95 - LURK BoF - https://tools.ietf.org/agenda/95/agenda-95-lurk.html
[16:56:01] Kathleen Moriarty joins the room
[16:56:25] <Yoav Nir> I am the jabber scribe . If you want something channeled to the room mic, prefix with "mic:"
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[17:01:06] <Yoav Nir> Chair Slides = https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-lurk-4.pdf
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[17:01:32] <Yoav Nir> (Unnumbered) slide #3 - Session Goals
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[17:02:29] <Yoav Nir> Slide 34 - Agenda
[17:02:37] <Yoav Nir> Slide #4 - Agenda
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[17:03:39] Piers O'Hanlon joins the room
[17:03:48] <Yoav Nir> Join the mailing list at https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lurk
[17:04:13] <Yoav Nir> Rich Salz - "This is the problem" - https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-lurk-1.pdf
[17:04:20] <Yoav Nir> Slide #2
[17:04:41] <Joe Hall> very strange audio artefacts (sounds like rsalz is in a bathtub with running water)
[17:04:59] <Yoav Nir> For those who have missed this earlier:  I am the jabber scribe . If you want something channeled to the room mic, prefix with "mic:"
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[17:06:03] <Yoav Nir> Slide #3
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[17:06:57] <sftcd> @joe: is rich audible now?
[17:07:19] <Yoav Nir> For those who have recently joined, we are looking at page #3 of https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-lurk-1.pdf
[17:07:23] <Yoav Nir> Slide #4
[17:07:27] <Joe Hall> audible, it's just a messy signal… if it's not too distracting, swapping his mic might be good… but we can just deal
[17:07:29] <Joe Hall> thanks!
[17:07:57] <sftcd> that better?
[17:07:58] Barry Leiba joins the room
[17:08:01] <Joe Hall> that very better
[17:08:07] <Joe Hall> sorry, English no work at the moment
[17:08:13] <sftcd> betterist
[17:08:27] <Yoav Nir> Slide #6
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[17:09:58] <Yoav Nir> Now looking at https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-lurk-5.pdf
[17:10:01] <Yoav Nir> Slide #2
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[17:10:46] <Yoav Nir> Slide #3
[17:10:53] Mike Bishop joins the room
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[17:11:38] <Yoav Nir> slide #4
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[17:12:44] <Yoav Nir> slide #5
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[17:14:10] <Yoav Nir> slide #6
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[17:14:54] <Yoav Nir> slide #7
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[17:15:11] rbarnes lurks
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[17:15:34] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowl1A93E189> The lurkers lurk.
[17:16:39] Joseph Hall leaves the room
[17:17:51] <Yoav Nir> Daniel Migault presenting https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-lurk-2.pdf
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[17:18:15] <Yoav Nir> Slide #2 - Toc
[17:18:42] <Kathleen Moriarty> Why do we see the chairs and not the speakers?
[17:19:04] <Yoav Nir> Slide #3
[17:19:06] <Barry Leiba> You should be seeing the speaker now (Daniel)
[17:19:22] <Kathleen Moriarty> I see Eric and saw him instead of Rich too
[17:19:23] <Yoav Nir> slide #4
[17:19:40] <Barry Leiba> From what angle are you seeing Eric?
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[17:19:43] <Yoav Nir> slide #5
[17:19:44] <Kathleen Moriarty> I can see Yaron too
[17:19:50] Piers O'Hanlon joins the room
[17:19:55] <Barry Leiba> (I'm looking at the camera, and it appears to be pointed at Daniel)
[17:20:06] <Barry Leiba> There must be another camera.
[17:20:24] <Kathleen Moriarty> Oh, it's frozen, I doubt they can stand that still ;-)
[17:20:29] <Kathleen Moriarty> the image that is
[17:20:44] <Kathleen Moriarty> slides and audio are fine
[17:20:59] <Barry Leiba> Ahhhhh.  That explains it.
[17:21:21] <Kathleen Moriarty> Meetecho: Is video frozen for all remote users?
[17:21:50] <Meetecho> Kathleen Moriarty: seems fine here (no webcam issue)
[17:22:03] <Meetecho> and in our monitors as well
[17:22:17] <Yoav Nir> slide #8
[17:24:05] <Yoav Nir> Slide #10
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[17:25:27] <Kathleen Moriarty> Anyone else remote?
[17:25:36] <sftcd> joe hall is remote
[17:25:49] <Kathleen Moriarty> Joe, who do you see in the video
[17:26:10] <Kathleen Moriarty> Just glad I have good voice recognition
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[17:30:11] <Yoav Nir> Slide #11
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[17:31:01] <Yoav Nir> Slide #12
[17:31:38] <Yoav Nir> slide #13
[17:32:09] <Yoav Nir> slide #14
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[17:33:22] <Yoav Nir> slide #16
[17:34:03] <Yoav Nir> slide #17
[17:34:19] <Yoav Nir> slide #18 - Thank you!
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[17:36:18] <Yoav Nir> PHB Presenting https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-lurk-3.pdf
[17:36:57] <Yoav Nir> Slide #3
[17:37:04] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowl1A93E189> Two independent implementations ... but do they interoperate? ;)
[17:37:29] <sftcd> Phill's is a superset for sure:-)
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[17:38:16] <Yoav Nir> Slide #4
[17:38:23] mnot uses a Yubikey Nano to store PGP key (which is also used as a SSH key). Simples.
[17:38:24] <Yoav Nir> (CDN Example)
[17:38:52] <Yoav Nir> Slide #5 - Approach
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[17:40:27] <Yoav Nir> Slide #6?  - Step 0: Hello Transaction (optional
[17:40:49] <Yoav Nir> Slide #7 - Request
[17:41:01] <Yoav Nir> Slide #8 - Response
[17:41:17] <Yoav Nir> Slide #9 - Step 1: Create (or import) a key pair
[17:42:43] <mnot> r?
[17:43:05] <Yoav Nir> Slide #10 - Step 2: Request a key use
[17:43:36] <Yoav Nir> mnot: can you elaborate?
[17:43:41] <Yoav Nir> Slide #11 - Step 3: Dispose of Key
[17:44:04] <Yoav Nir> Slide #12 - Current Status
[17:44:13] <mnot> @yoav: nm
[17:45:00] <Yoav Nir> I was going to ask if you wanted that channeled to the physical mic :-)
[17:45:38] <richsalz> @yoav:  he can walk to it :)
[17:46:27] <Yoav Nir> Next up: Frederic presents https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/slides/slides-95-lurk-0.pdf
[17:46:38] <Yoav Nir> (sorry, Psi does not support accents)
[17:47:06] <Yoav Nir> @richsalz: yeah, but I wanted to go the the mic and say "Mark says 'r'"
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[17:47:14] <richsalz> HAHAHA
[17:47:16] <Yoav Nir> Slide #2
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[17:48:58] <Yoav Nir> The missing word at the bottom of this slide is "certificate."
[17:49:22] <Yoav Nir> so, "using the uCDN (of CP) certificate"
[17:49:30] <Yoav Nir> *or
[17:49:35] <Yoav Nir> Slide #3
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[17:50:53] <Yoav Nir> Slide #4 - Next Steps
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[17:52:29] <Yoav Nir> PHB at the mi
[17:52:33] <Yoav Nir> *mic
[17:53:29] <Yoav Nir> ekr
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[18:02:48] <Joe Hall> god, these mics are torture for remotes! maybe just me. We can understand them, so not fatal.
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[18:05:04] <rbarnes > when whitehouse.gov was presenting an Akamai-branded cert, they were not happy :)
[18:05:20] <Garima Pandey> hummmm
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[18:05:40] <Joe Hall> not time yet for humming @garima
[18:06:12] <Garima Pandey> :)
[18:06:24] <Garima Pandey> yes....#joe_Hall
[18:06:26] <Joe Hall> @meetecho: can we fix the sound or is it a lost cause for this session?
[18:06:46] Tony Hansen leaves the room
[18:06:57] <Meetecho> we were not aware of audio issues
[18:07:00] <Meetecho> looking into that
[18:07:41] Tony Hansen joins the room
[18:07:51] <Garima Pandey> KeysBOF??
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[18:08:34] <sftcd> @meetecho: I think it was just people not facing the mic
[18:09:00] <Joe Hall> @meetecho: I've loaded through a few browsers and one mic is hot, giving of a lot of static into the stream
[18:09:01] <Meetecho> actually it looks like remote audio is not very good, so we're looking into that
[18:09:07] <Joe Hall> tyvm
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[18:09:23] <Joe Hall> @meetecho: it's intelligible, just not pleasant
[18:09:42] <Meetecho> Joe Hall: we'll play with the settings, let us know when audio seems to improve
[18:10:12] <Joe Hall> @meetecho: will do
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[18:10:49] <Joe Hall> ooh, that did it!
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[18:11:01] <Joe Hall> much much much much better, thanks mucho @meetecho
[18:11:14] <Joe Hall> MT get on mic!
[18:11:22] <Meetecho> (y)
[18:11:59] <Joe Hall> @meetecho: just went popcorn-y again
[18:12:19] <Meetecho> ack, just a sec
[18:12:43] <Joe Hall> it's good again!
[18:12:48] ted.h joins the room
[18:12:50] <Joe Hall> very very good, thank you
[18:13:00] <Yoav Nir> Yeah, we get the popcorn sound in the room as well
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[18:13:14] <Meetecho> cool!
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[18:13:56] <mnot> IME you limit scope in a WG to finish — full stop.
[18:15:09] <richsalz> bring back pkix!  the never-endidng WG
[18:15:18] <Yoav Nir> I thought that "out of scope" and "we can kick it out" are the same thing
[18:15:48] <bergtau> I think PHB's point (whether anyone agrees) is that high levels of scope-limiting leads to bikeshedding
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[18:17:07] <ron> code signing isn't something that needs to be delegated.  unless you want CDNs to be generating code for you on the fly ...  or some such.
[18:17:51] <richsalz> I don't think code-signing needs this, according to discusison with dkg.  Mea culpa, I was just trying to find "another use case.
[18:17:55] <Yoav Nir> It makes sense to separate the compilation server from a signing server
[18:18:14] <Yoav Nir> That's very much intranet rather than Internet, though
[18:18:34] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowl1A93E189> kitten is never-ending :)
[18:18:37] <Joe Hall> so maybe doesn't meet the "remote" part of the potential use cases
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[18:19:11] <Yoav Nir> I think bmwg is the longest-running, no?
[18:19:26] <Olafur> dhc is oldest WG
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[18:19:51] <bergtau> How is the CDN case different from the "secretary-signs-for-the-boss" case?
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[18:20:31] <richsalz> volume and scope?
[18:20:56] <richsalz> manual process v automatic?
[18:21:09] <ron> Yoav, yeah there's two sides of that.  there's signing source and signing binaries.  and reproducible builds changes the dynamic of the latter somewhat.
[18:21:47] <Yoav Nir> Current CDN is "secretary-signs-for-the-boss". This is proposing that the secretary can still type everything, but the boss does the actual signing. So the boss needs to be in the office 24x7.
[18:21:50] <bergtau> @richsalz: but similar enough to be a second use case for a common protocol? or not.
[18:22:27] <ron> it seems like what is wanted there is to let the EV holder sign delegated certs.
[18:22:45] <ron> which doesn't quite fit the traditional CA model, but fits a lot of other existing trust models.
[18:23:08] <bergtau> @Yoav: I'm thinking more of boss is away from office, and delegates to an admin to sign for certain care-and-feeding type functions.
[18:23:09] <ron> (ie. it breaks the monopoly of the CA's as sole signing agents)
[18:23:30] <richsalz> @yoav:  That's well-put IMHO
[18:23:33] <bergtau> using the bosses' key, but obviously not with on-going access
[18:24:16] <Yoav Nir> I don't think the CAs would be too irked if we allow www.example.com (which is not a CA) to sign another certificate for www.example.com.
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[18:25:31] <ron> with ACME in the picture to automate that it seems viable.
[18:25:32] <jimsch> @Yoav:  As an attribute certificate or as a new EE certificate?
[18:25:34] <bergtau> The CA woud be irked if basicConstrains had not been set TRUE.
[18:26:26] <Yoav Nir> @bergtau: The content owner is the boss. The content owner let the secretary sign so that he wouldn't need to be in the office all the time. Now we're going back to have him sign everything.   Back to CDNs and content owners, why use a CDN if you still need to handle availability and scale?
[18:26:30] <bergtau> No CA will want to set up arbitrary and uncontrollable subCAs
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[18:27:40] <Yoav Nir> @jimsch: I thought an EE certificate. Give servers a CA certificate with name constraint that allows them to sign only the same name.
[18:28:14] <ron> yeah, that's the sort of thing I was thinking.
[18:28:39] <jimsch> @Yoav:  I don't know how well name constraints are normally enforced.  That would be a large factor in that
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[18:29:17] <Jim Fenton> I thought that name constraints were the one thing you can depend on.
[18:29:32] <Yoav Nir> @jimsch: from reading the public mailing list of the CA/Browser Forum: not very well.
[18:29:40] <bergtau> @Yoav: I think you understand my use-case, but are drawing a different conclusion. You want the secretary to be able to invoke the boss' signing key without on-going access to it. Similar to the CDN invoking a content-owner's key without on-going access (or exposure as Rich said in his presentation). I think they're analogous use-cases. Except perhaps for volume, as Rich pointed out.
[18:30:22] <ron> we want to be able to give the secretary a day pass, with a short expiry.
[18:30:23] <jimsch> @Yoav:  That was my understanding of the issue today.  Without that type of enforcement I doubt that CAs would be in favor of such an approach.
[18:30:40] <ron> "I delegate you as king for a day"
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[18:31:09] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowl1A93E189> "As king, I appoint myself emperor for life"
[18:31:33] <richsalz> I think manual vs automatic and scale are important differences.  If a secy signs an additional paycheck on behalf of his boss, it will be found out.  If a CDN "lies" and uses the key they have, it might not get known., immediately, or ever.
[18:31:36] <bergtau> @ron: but it has to give the "green bar" of the boss, not the secretary, as Rich pointed out.
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[18:31:45] <ron> we don't really need the CA's to be in favour of it.  we need the people who distribute the trust anchors to like it ;>
[18:32:18] <ron> bergtau: right, but that's browser policy, not anything intrinsic to the rest of the tech
[18:32:30] <jimsch> @bergtau:  That is not true, it can often say Secretary acting as Boss.
[18:32:32] <richsalz> Except that the browser/trust-anchor vendors are part of the same consortium as the CA's.  <smiley here>
[18:32:42] <ron> I can patch my organisations browers to show everything green :)
[18:33:04] <ted.h> @richsalz  among other consortia that they are part of :\
[18:33:06] <sftcd> I'm not following how the CAs or browsers can technically know what's going in if lurk is done
[18:33:20] <richsalz> +1
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[18:35:13] <Peter Bowen> no, that is not useful
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[18:44:15] <Yoav Nir> Questions to the room. People on Jabber can say as well!
[18:44:45] <Yoav Nir> Is there a problem to solve, and is the IETF the right place?
[18:45:07] Frode K leaves the room
[18:45:07] <Yoav Nir> Yes - hum now
[18:45:09] <Basavaraj Patil> hummmmm
[18:45:09] <Joe Hall_4615> hummmmm
[18:45:14] <Basavaraj Patil> hummmmm
[18:45:23] <Yoav Nir> No - hum now
[18:45:43] <Yoav Nir> Seems more "yes" than "no"
[18:46:22] <Yoav Nir> CDN use case only?
[18:46:47] <Yoav Nir> But first, PHB has somethign to say
[18:46:50] <Yoav Nir> something*
[18:47:27] <Yoav Nir> Stephen Farrell
[18:47:48] <Yoav Nir> CDN only, or CDN and more?
[18:49:57] <Yoav Nir> Finally: CDN only - hum now
[18:49:58] <Joe Hall_4615> hummmmm
[18:50:03] <Basavaraj Patil> hummmmm
[18:50:07] <Yoav Nir> more than CDN?
[18:50:25] <Joe Hall_4615> mine was CDN only
[18:50:42] <Yoav Nir> But the (slight) majority was for CDN and maybe more
[18:50:54] <Yoav Nir> Who's gonna follow the work?
[18:50:55] <Basavaraj Patil> hummmmm
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[18:52:38] <ron> humm tat
[18:52:43] <ron> *that
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[18:53:29] <Yoav Nir> And we're done
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[18:53:32] <Yoav Nir> .
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[18:53:55] <ron> I thought people were going to come back to PHB's acme thing?
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[18:54:10] <ron> did that get punted to somewhere else?
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[19:35:19] mnot when the drinks runs outs, the minutes runs out too…
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