IETF
mls
mls@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, July 19, 2018< ^ >
dkg has set the subject to: MLS @ IETF102 -- hackathon https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/102hackathon/MLS
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[13:03:42] Rich Salz has set the subject to: MLS AT IETF 102 — SESSION
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[13:24:00] <m&m> it looks like etherpad is down
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[13:25:13] <m&m> and now it's back
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[13:29:00] <Rich Salz> I'm jabber scribe until dkg takes over at 11.
[13:29:14] <Sean Turner> save often on etherpad
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[13:29:29] <m&m> I am taking notes at https://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-102-mls?useMonospaceFont=true and offline
[13:29:30] <Rich Salz> Plus put MIC at the start if you want it relayed. Thanks.
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[13:30:32] <Rich Salz> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-mls-chair-slides-102-mls-00
[13:31:38] <Rich Salz> p2 note well
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[13:31:51] <Rich Salz> p3 requests
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[13:32:33] <Rich Salz> p4 agenda
[13:32:48] JoeHallCDT joins the room
[13:33:13] <Rich Salz> p6 charter review
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[13:34:55] <Rich Salz> architecture
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[13:35:31] <Rich Salz> part of the same slide deck.  BUT NO PAGE NUMBERS  BOO HISS
[13:35:37] <Rich Salz> System Overview
[13:35:55] <dkg> it's page 10 of  'https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-mls-chair-slides-102-mls-00.pdf' "System Overview"
[13:36:14] <Rich Salz> yeah, but you gonna count accurately for 60 slides? :(
[13:36:21] dkg has set the subject to: MLS @ IETF 102 - Session - slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-mls-chair-slides-102-mls-00.pdf
[13:36:21] <Rich Salz> system overview, again
[13:36:33] <dkg> Rich Salz: i can't, but my PDF viewer can :)
[13:36:42] <Rich Salz> you win.
[13:36:50] <Rich Salz> system overview, p12
[13:37:16] <dkg> i think it's p11 :P
[13:37:23] <dkg> now it's p12 "Functional Requirements"
[13:37:25] <m&m> _think_?
[13:37:25] dkg ducks
[13:37:36] <Rich Salz> thanks guys.
[13:38:18] <Rich Salz> p13 security requirements
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[13:38:53] <Martin Thomson> why are we doing this presentation?  aren't there real issues to discuss?
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[13:39:37] <dkg> Martin Thomson: it's also the same presentation as at IETF 101
[13:39:45] <Sean Turner> MT: recap and then WG adoption
[13:39:47] <JoeHallCDT> yikes
[13:39:50] <JoeHallCDT> ah
[13:39:54] <Rich Salz> p14 security considerations
[13:40:00] <Martin Thomson> dkg: that's my point, no new information = waste of precious time
[13:40:35] <JoeHallCDT> you could interrupt, ask for a show of hands as to review of doc, ask the chairs to do the adoption hum, and move on
[13:40:49] <Rich Salz> This deck was worked on last night sean said.
[13:40:50] <dkg> Martin Thomson: not everyone in the room might be as up-to-date as you tend to be, though :/
[13:40:53] <Rich Salz> p15 open questions
[13:41:07] <Rich Salz> I think the intent is that this soon moves to new content.
[13:41:23] <dkg> richard barnes on the mic
[13:41:36] <Martin Thomson> dkg: well, that didn't take that long
[13:41:40] <dkg> remote folks: can you hear the mic?
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[13:41:45] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> yes
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[13:42:02] <dkg> Katriel Cohn-Gordon: thanks :)
[13:42:17] <Sean Turner> you're up
[13:42:31] <Rich Salz> philippe prindeville
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[13:43:07] <m&m> please state your names when you get to the mic
[13:43:32] <Rich Salz> raphael robert
[13:43:54] <Sean Turner> Can you be louder?
[13:44:20] <Sean Turner> that's better!
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[13:46:08] <Rich Salz> Stanislav Smyshlyaev
[13:46:25] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> wow @rich well spelled :)
[13:46:45] <Rich Salz> cut+paste from web search :)
[13:46:52] <Rich Salz> ekr
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[13:49:31] <Rich Salz> jon millican
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[13:51:22] m&m is taking offline notes atm
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[13:53:30] <Martin Thomson> one point that hasn't been mentioned, but I think is relevant: if you don't have a maximum update period, then you might find that you have code for updates that could be untested; if the only operations we see are add/remove, then you might have clients that break in response to updates
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[13:53:55] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> This grease is tasty?
[13:54:02] <Martin Thomson> mmm, grease, yeah
[13:54:33] <Rich Salz> lucia ballard
[13:55:16] <Rich Salz> bob moskowitz
[13:55:25] <dkg> i forgot to mention the question of how we enforce key rotation -- do the peers enforce it?
[13:55:31] <dkg> does the server?
[13:55:45] <dkg> and now the mic line is closed :(
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[13:56:38] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> fwiw I think either could be done, clients enforcing it would be best but might be hard for concurrency reasons (device 1 has clock skew and thinks B's key has expired)
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[13:57:08] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> but as long as the updates are not running too close to the expiry deadline then I think it should be fine on the clients
[13:57:09] <dkg> Katriel Cohn-Gordon: do we need a warning message or sometihng?
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[13:57:52] <Sean Turner> BTW - you sound good!
[13:58:20] <Rich Salz> true, very mellifluous and soothing vocal timber.  is that what you meant?
[13:58:29] <Rich Salz> richard barnes at the mic
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[13:58:36] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> warning message about enforcing updates?
[13:58:41] <dkg> Karthikeyan Bhargavan: yes, it is important for the security UI/UX that the peers know each other.
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[13:58:46] <dkg> Karthikeyan Bhargavan: yeah, that's what i meant
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[13:59:55] <Karthikeyan Bhargavan> dkg: even so, there are finer distinctions. I may want to know who sent a message, but do I need to know who all the other recipients are?
[13:59:58] <dkg> Rich Salz: if i prefix somehting with mic: will you exercise jabber scribe privilege to inject something at the mic line?
[14:00:06] <Karthikeyan Bhargavan> I am wondering if this should be an optional feature.
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[14:00:13] <dkg> Karthikeyan Bhargavan: if you want to know what the confidentiality boundary is, yes, you need to know.
[14:00:22] <Rich Salz> No, you're local.  "mic" is for remote people.
[14:00:24] <dkg> dang
[14:00:27] <dkg> foiled again
[14:00:36] <Rich Salz> But points for trying to game the system.
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[14:01:09] <dkg> i meant traffic analysis for the mls-specific mechanisms, not just message padding.
[14:01:20] <Rich Salz> Perhaps use your phone's IM client to join anonymously?
[14:01:29] <dkg> ooh, maybe i should get a phone
[14:01:29] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> dkg: to be clear, so that an ISP cannot figure out that you are speaking MLS?
[14:01:37] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> or cannot figure out which particular MLS actions you are doing?
[14:01:39] <dkg> or how many people you are broadcasting to
[14:01:45] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> re dkg's point, this is an open jabber room and there are (anonymous)
free jabber providers
[14:01:46] <dkg> etc.
[14:02:38] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Bah, Rich beat me to it
[14:02:41] <Rich Salz> hum to adopt the architecture document.  remote folks say yes or no or no opinion
[14:02:58] <Benjamin Beurdouche> hum: I am in favor of adopting the draft
[14:03:05] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> hum: adopt the draft
[14:03:22] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> wow I cannot hear the hum at all from remote
[14:03:28] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> I take it that was "adopt"? :)
[14:03:29] <dkg> it was unambiguous
[14:03:34] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> That means the audio system is doing its job!
[14:03:34] <dkg> no one hummed "don't adopt"
[14:03:37] <Jonathan Lennox> There was substantial hum for and none against
[14:03:37] <Sean Turner> we'll take it to the list, but the sense of the room was adopt
[14:03:44] <Rich Salz> p18 handshake message ordering
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[14:03:54] <Rich Salz> sorry, handshake messages
[14:03:59] <Suhas Nandakumar> +1 on adopt
[14:04:09] <dkg> Suhas Nandakumar: too late!  we already agreed with you :)
[14:04:10] <Rich Salz> p19 confiicts x->?<-y
[14:04:37] <Rich Salz> p21 server-forced ordering
[14:04:56] <Rich Salz> p22 client-forced ordering
[14:05:26] <Rich Salz> p23 open questions
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[14:06:15] <Rich Salz> richard barnes at the mic
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[14:08:39] <Rich Salz> dkg
[14:10:00] <Rich Salz> rlb
[14:11:05] <Rich Salz> dkg
[14:11:26] <Rich Salz> ekr
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[14:12:10] <dkg> note: ekr ignores relativity -- it's just a theory!
[14:12:30] <Karthikeyan Bhargavan> 2ms is huuge :)
[14:12:36] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Relativity can totally affect which order events are seen in,
depending on the observer!
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[14:13:49] <Martin Thomson> lamport clocks? seems difficult, yeah
[14:13:53] <Rich Salz> raphael robert
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[14:15:42] <Rich Salz> jonathan lennox
[14:16:16] <Rich Salz> bob moskowitz
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[14:17:09] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I hope my state machine is not blocking on SVG support for I-Ds...
[14:17:20] <Rich Salz> jon millican
[14:18:06] <Rich Salz> richard barnes
[14:18:07] <dkg> kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl: you should just use the UTF-8 STATE_MACHINE_SYMBOLS block
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[14:18:26] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I love that I can't tell if you're trolling me or that's a real thing.
[14:19:13] <Rich Salz> his screen saver is random utf8 chars.
[14:19:22] <dkg> not uniformly random, though
[14:19:22] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> Oh you probably want U+1F4A9 UNSURE_IF_TROLLING_FACE
[14:19:41] <dkg> har har
[14:19:54] <Rich Salz> daniel franke
[14:19:54] <dkg> like we don't all recognize U+1F4A9 automatically
[14:20:12] <Rich Salz> no, our mind is too filled up with arbitrary RFC numbers.
[14:20:32] <JoeHallCDT> was that vector clocks?
[14:20:36] <m&m> si
[14:20:40] <JoeHallCDT> ty
[14:20:40] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> yes, vector clocks
[14:20:48] <m&m> speaker?
[14:20:57] <Rich Salz> didnt catch the name, will post when he's done
[14:21:46] <Rich Salz> michael motavsky
[14:21:49] <m&m> ta
[14:21:49] <Rich Salz> lief johannsen
[14:21:57] <Rich Salz> leif.  oops
[14:22:11] <Rich Salz> johansson.  oops**2
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[14:22:34] <m&m> IETF veterans need to announce names just as much as the rookies, people!
[14:22:46] <dkg> m&m: amen
[14:22:48] <Rich Salz> michael matovsky
[14:22:56] <JoeHallCDT> can vector clocking scale to tens of thousands of group members?
[14:23:01] <JoeHallCDT> I suppose so
[14:23:13] <dkg> the messages in vector clocks are O(n), no?
[14:23:15] <JoeHallCDT> ah, it’s pretty light, sorry for thinking out loud
[14:23:22] <JoeHallCDT> yup
[14:23:27] stpeter has always been curious about this "tens of thousands of group members" requirement...
[14:23:31] <dkg> that's a large update
[14:23:34] <Rich Salz> thinking out load is better than not thinking
[14:23:40] <JoeHallCDT> yeah, not the log we’ve been counting on
[14:23:41] <Rich Salz> brian weiss
[14:23:43] <JoeHallCDT> ha
[14:23:50] <dkg> stpeter: the frame i've heard is "we want a company-wide slack-like thing where the server can't read the messages"
[14:23:52] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> stpeter: it would be nice if Slack could deploy MLS to channels
[14:23:53] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> There are supposedly wechat groups of that size, IIUC
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[14:24:26] <Rich Salz> highly unclear that wechat would ever deploy this, right?
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[14:24:32] <Rich Salz> jon millican
[14:24:33] <dkg> because it would be totally impossible for the server to add user 50,001 to read the messages.
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[14:25:01] <Rich Salz> I don't think the reasons are technical.
[14:25:40] <Karthikeyan Bhargavan> vector clocks are O(n), but yes, we certainly need some (optimistic) causal consistency mechanism, hopefully without O(n) messages/state.
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[14:26:06] <Rich Salz> rlb (richard barnes) at the mic
[14:26:47] <Karthikeyan Bhargavan> vector clocks are O(n) in message and state size, but yes, I think we do need a (optimistic) causal consistency mechanism, hopefully something that is more efficient.
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[14:27:21] <Rich Salz> NEW
[14:27:26] <Karthikeyan Bhargavan> (oops, sorry for the repeat)
[14:27:30] <dkg> Karthikeyan Bhargavan: think we're going to need to live with O(n) state on the clients anyway
[14:27:37] <Rich Salz> PAGE 25, ART vs TReeKEM
[14:27:37] <dkg> bc clients need to know who they are talking to.
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[14:27:45] <Rich Salz> Reminder: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-mls-chair-slides-102-mls-00
[14:27:46] <richard.barnes> And now for the real cryptogrpahy
[14:27:55] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> Karthik: do you mean that clients should be able to know what group states their received messages were generated from?
[14:27:58] <Rich Salz> p26 protocol operations
[14:28:12] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> or that they should be able to handle message generated from the "wrong" group states?
[14:28:20] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> The former I agree with, the latter I am not so sure
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[14:28:43] <Rich Salz> p27 Asynchronous Routing Tree
[14:29:02] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> *Ratcheting
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[14:29:19] <Rich Salz> thnks.
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[14:29:53] <dkg> stpeter: are you suggesting that we could get away with a simpler protocol if we cap group size lower than the 10s of thousands range?
[14:30:08] <Rich Salz> p28 DH output -> DH key pair
[14:30:16] <stpeter> dkg: the thought has crossed my mind
[14:30:22] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> dkg: if you cap group sizes to "small" then sender keys is ok (the Wire folks can comment on when it stops scaling)
[14:30:35] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> (that is, sender keys and you continuously send new ones over pairwise Signal channels)
[14:30:55] <m&m> salt that hash
[14:30:57] <Rich Salz> p29 DH Trees
[14:31:17] <JoeHallCDT> yeah, what did we use for salt this weekend, “iota”?
[14:31:18] <JoeHallCDT> heh
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[14:31:38] <Rich Salz> p30 Group Evolution
[14:31:41] <m&m>
[14:31:43] <dkg> Katriel Cohn-Gordon: i guess the question is what we think "small" means -- if we're talking about 200 it might be a different story than if we're talking about 10.
[14:32:19] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> the Wire folks can comment more precisely but I think the 200x message sending latency would be painful but maybe tolerable depending on the application
[14:32:19] <Rich Salz> p31 Operation 0: Create group
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[14:32:48] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> s/message sending/sender key update/
[14:32:50] <Karthikeyan Bhargavan> Katriel: I was speaking about messages in general (not specifically about the handshake)
[14:33:06] <Karthikeyan Bhargavan> Even if we want to reject them, we need to know which state these messages were sent in.
[14:33:20] <Karthikeyan Bhargavan> (this chat window isn't working so well for me, sorry)
[14:33:27] <Rich Salz> p32 Operation 1 Group-Initiated Add
[14:33:39] <Rich Salz> p33 Operation 2 User-Initiated Add
[14:34:17] <Rich Salz> p34 Operation 3 Key Update (because PFS isn't a well-known term of art?)
[14:34:27] <Rich Salz> p35 Operation 4: Remove
[14:35:09] <Rich Salz> p46 TreeKEM an alternative ratcheting tree
[14:35:38] <Rich Salz> p*36* not 46
[14:35:48] <Martin Thomson> the construction Jon described for ART isn't contributive, but it could be made so trivially
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[14:36:31] <dkg> Martin Thomson: how is it not?
[14:36:39] <Rich Salz> p37 Hash output -> public key pair
[14:36:50] <Martin Thomson> x25519 doesn't produce contributory behaviour
[14:37:07] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> Hmm what do you mean by that exactly?
[14:37:17] <Martin Thomson> it depends on the DH primitive that is used, if I understand this
[14:37:19] <Rich Salz> p38 TreeKEM trees - same structure as ART
[14:37:34] vanitasvitae joins the room
[14:37:56] <Rich Salz> p38 Group evolution - matches that of ART
[14:38:02] <JoeHallCDT> I think that figure was wrong
[14:38:04] <Martin Thomson> I don't think that it's a problem necessarily, and it's trivially fixed (for instance, by including the public keys in the KDF that is used), so not worth worrying about
[14:38:06] <Rich Salz> that was 39
[14:38:14] <Rich Salz> p40 Operation 1: Group initiated add
[14:38:30] <JoeHallCDT> in the TreeKEM paper the root key is KDF(H^N(...),previous key)
[14:38:33] <JoeHallCDT> anyway
[14:38:53] <Rich Salz> p41: Operation 2: User-Initiated Add
[14:39:01] <dkg> Martin Thomson: i still don't underestand your claim about X25519, i think.  but do you think that including the public keys in the KDF for TreeKEM would make it contributory?
[14:39:05] <Benjamin Beurdouche> Yeah, the protocol doc says H(E) at the root sometimes
[14:39:07] <dkg> or does that break the mergability?
[14:39:17] <Martin Thomson> dkg: yes
[14:39:19] <Benjamin Beurdouche> the treeKEM paper does H^N
[14:39:34] <Rich Salz> p42 Operation 3: Key Update (for PCS
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[14:39:38] <Martin Thomson> dkg: I don't see how it would break the construction, it's just a detail
[14:39:45] <JoeHallCDT> but the root mixes in the last key, so it’s not just a H^N
[14:39:47] <Rich Salz> p43 Operation 4: Remove
[14:40:02] <dkg> Martin Thomson: it's a detail that affects the mergeability, right?
[14:40:04] <Rich Salz> p44 Key Comparisons
[14:40:36] <dkg> bc if i am merging and hashing at the time that my peer is updated, i'll end up with a different decision for our parents than they will.
[14:40:53] <Benjamin Beurdouche> Joe: it is done separately, the new root secret is H^N(participant), then you derive an Update secret
[14:40:55] <Rich Salz> p45 Open Issues with both
[14:40:55] <Martin Thomson> dkg: oh, I see what you are saying.  It might need some careful consideration
[14:41:01] <JoeHallCDT> ah, thanks!
[14:41:05] <Martin Thomson> dkg: but I don't think that it would be fatal
[14:41:13] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> Other good slogans for t-shirts: "it might need some careful consideration"
[14:41:22] <Martin Thomson> BTW, https://cr.yp.to/ecdh.html covers contributory behavior (search for key validation)
[14:41:39] <Rich Salz> rlb at the mic
[14:42:15] <Martin Thomson> dkg: keep in mind that I'm a tourist here and I haven't internalized all the details and merging is one thing that I don't have in my head
[14:42:40] <sftcd> keep both for now but schedule the WG to decide to pick one later
[14:43:32] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> Mic: I would like to hear on-list from some federation-positive people about the concurrency assumption we talked about earlier
[14:43:49] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> I suspect they have situations where it is not satisfied
[14:43:57] <Rich Salz> k
[14:44:19] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> thanks
[14:44:35] <Rich Salz> and sorry for mangling the gender.  AARGH
[14:44:42] <Rich Salz> Stansilav
[14:45:01] <Rich Salz> Stanislav
[14:45:02] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> no worries :)
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[14:45:26] <Rich Salz> [Insert stupid American disclaimer here.]
[14:45:34] <Rich Salz> As in, I'm just a stupid american
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[14:47:16] <Rich Salz> ekr at the mic
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[14:50:07] <harryhalpin> great to see concurrency discussion re federation - following remotely :)
[14:51:01] <Rich Salz> Ben Kaduk
[14:52:50] <Rich Salz> <missed speaker>
[14:52:51] vanitasvitae joins the room
[14:52:52] <Rich Salz> rlb
[14:53:04] <m&m> Rich Salz: Raphael Rober
[14:53:06] <m&m> t
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[14:54:04] <Rich Salz> tnx
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[14:55:14] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> mic: facepalm
[14:55:18] <Rich Salz> And with that, your friendly but semi-competent Jabber Scribe exits, stage left.  Enjoy the rest of the session.
[14:55:27] <Benjamin Beurdouche> Katriel: same lol
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[14:56:14] <dkg> shivan at the mic
[14:56:31] <dkg> emad omara at the mic
[14:56:51] <dkg> i am the jabber scribe now
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[14:57:18] <dkg> p46 : Message Protection
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[14:57:27] <rlb> so that was inconclusive, but i think still helpful?
[14:57:30] <dkg> Benjamin Beurdouche: please join the remote queue
[14:57:41] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Did we organize a remote presenter without asking meetecho for a
proper "remote presenter" URL?
[14:57:59] <dkg> kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl: i htink we're just using meetecho directly
[14:58:13] <Sean Turner> yep directly
[14:58:14] <Meetecho> We're not aware of any remote presentation
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[14:58:31] <dkg> p48 "What's in the draft today"
[14:58:32] <Meetecho> So yes, you'll have to use the virtual queue if there's a remote presenter
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[14:59:27] <dkg> Meetecho: thanks, we'll do that.  it seems to be working well for us now.
[14:59:43] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I guess I should have sent a reminder to WG chairs that the option was
available.  Hopefully I will remebmer for next time...
[14:59:45] <dkg> p49, "Handshake Key Schedule"
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[15:00:17] <Nick> We'll keep this in mind for next time.
[15:00:31] <Meetecho> Yep, it typically works just as fine: the issue mostly comes from the fact you won't be able to have remote questions and remote speaker on at the same time (and the fact we don't actively track the talk)
[15:00:36] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> And thanks to meetecho for the "regular" remote service being so good
that we can get away without asking for a dedicated remote
presentation!
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[15:00:51] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> +1
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[15:01:11] <dkg> p50, "Application Key Schedule"
[15:01:33] rlb is proud to have achieved the coveted double-facepalm
[15:01:42] <rlb> achievement unlocked!
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[15:03:06] <dkg> p51 "Group Ratchet (TLS-Like)"
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[15:04:17] <dkg> p52 "Participant/Sender ratcheting of the secret"
[15:04:34] <dkg> p53 "TLS-like"
[15:06:35] <dkg> p54 "Double Ratchet-like"
[15:06:47] <dkg> p53 "TLS-like"
[15:07:33] <dkg> p54 "Double Ratchet-like"
[15:09:05] <dkg> p55 "Application Key Schedule"
[15:10:09] <dkg> ekr at the mic
[15:12:46] <dkg> rlb at mic
[15:12:57] <dkg> mic line is empty
[15:12:58] Christopher Wood joins the room
[15:13:03] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> t-shirt: I didn't say *that*
[15:13:11] <dkg> p57 "Message Encryption"
[15:14:57] JoeHallCDT leaves the room
[15:14:59] <dkg> p58 "Proposal…"
[15:15:35] <dkg> richard barnes at the mic
[15:16:00] <dkg> p55 "Application Key Schedule"
[15:17:06] <dkg> Karthikeyan Bhargavan: we are going to have to kick Benjamin Beurdouche if you want to speak remotely
[15:17:21] <dkg> i can relay at the mic
[15:17:23] <Karthikeyan Bhargavan> ah, ok. keep him on then. i will type something here.
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[15:18:48] <dkg> ekr at the mic
[15:18:53] <dkg> (that was me at the mic earlier)
[15:19:17] <Nick> Karthik and Benjamin, I'll have to kick Ben off for Karthik's question, so when I do, Ben you should get back in the queue.
[15:19:49] <Karthikeyan Bhargavan> Question: It is unclear what the security guarantees of application key ratcheting are. It only provides Forward Secrecy against a very weak attacker, and only if all receivers (including passive receivers) regularly *delete* old application keys.
[15:20:28] <dkg> ra[phael robert at the mic
[15:20:35] <Karthikeyan Bhargavan> Q (contd.): So a question is: do we even need application key ratcheting as long as the group (epoch) secret is frequently enough updated?
[15:20:38] <Nick> Or we can have DKG proxy your question, Karthik.
[15:20:47] <dkg> i will, nick
[15:21:24] <Karthikeyan Bhargavan> Thanks: I am looking to understand the formal security goals here.
[15:22:27] JoeHallCDT joins the room
[15:22:28] <Jonathan Lennox> Not taking this to the mic because I'm not so familiar with the protocols - but how are you signing messages per-participant?  AEAD can't do it if every participant knows every other participant's key, right?
[15:22:45] <Jonathan Lennox> Is this a digital signature per message?
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[15:22:55] <dkg> Jonathan Lennox: i think it's an independent signature from the sender's own signing key
[15:23:00] <dkg> that might come up next though
[15:23:05] <dkg> rlb at the mic
[15:23:23] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> Correct, that is the next talk
[15:23:24] <Katriel Cohn-Gordon> I think
[15:23:32] <Jonathan Lennox> This means every participant needs to know every other particpant's public key, then, which is a lot more state than just the AES keys.
[15:24:05] <dkg> Jonathan Lennox: yes, they do need to know that anyway, in order to displaying membership to the user
[15:24:07] <Nick> @Meetecho, is there anyone in the queue for a question? I can't tell from the current view.
[15:24:15] <dkg> ekr at the mic
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[15:24:24] <Meetecho> Nick: not right now
[15:24:37] <Meetecho> We can minimize Benjamin when someone joins the queue if you want
[15:24:41] <Meetecho> This way you'll notice
[15:24:50] <Nick> Sean was able to look
[15:24:55] <Nick> Thanks!
[15:25:18] <Karthikeyan Bhargavan> Jonathan: The AEAD guarantees that *someone* in the group sent the message, the signature is needed if we want to know who.
[15:25:31] <dkg> barnes back at the mic
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[15:25:57] <dkg> ekr at mic
[15:26:19] <Jonathan Lennox> Karthikeyan: Yeah, rlb's point was that he didn't think the former was that useful.
[15:26:47] <dkg> barnes and ekr are doing a lennon-mccartney thing at the mic now
[15:27:23] <dkg> i'm not saying which one is lennon and which one is mccartney
[15:27:34] <dkg> matthew miller at the mic
[15:28:10] <Jonathan Lennox> We'll have to see which of them holds a bed-in in this hotel.
[15:28:18] <dkg> omara at the mic
[15:28:46] <dkg> millican at the mic
[15:29:17] <dkg> jonathan lennox at the mic
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[15:29:39] Ben Campbell joins the room
[15:29:40] <dkg> barnes at the mic
[15:29:59] <dkg> p59 Authentication
[15:30:12] <dkg> p61 "What's in the draft today"
[15:31:10] <dkg> p62 "What do we need to do here?"
[15:32:55] <dkg> p63 "Remove() requires knowing more of the tree"
[15:34:47] <dkg> p64 '"Post-connect" cases are easier'
[15:36:13] <dkg> p65 '"SIGMA-like"'
[15:37:23] <dkg> p66 '"Initializastion" case is more expensive'
[15:37:32] <dkg> p65 '"SIGMA-like"'
[15:37:34] <dkg> p66 '"Initializastion" case is more expensive'
[15:38:27] <dkg> p67 "Recall: Handshake messages carry public keys along a direct path"
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[15:40:12] <dkg> p68 "Messages can be used to distribute the tree"
[15:41:11] <dkg> p69 "Don’t be afraid of commitment"
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[15:41:53] <Martin Thomson> BLOCKCHAIN!
[15:41:56] <Martin Thomson> RUN!
[15:42:07] <Harry Halpin> I quite like this design, and its similar to the work being done on ClaimChain
[15:42:49] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I almost said "blockchain" back when we were talking about having to
trust someone (for authentication, I think?), but decided I didn't
need to check off that box on everyone's bingo cards...
[15:42:50] Patrick Mourot leaves the room
[15:43:20] <dkg> p70 "Summary"
[15:44:52] <dkg> Karthikeyan Bhargavan: please re-join the queue!
[15:44:56] <sftcd> random question from someone only half-listening: are there any issues here with changing a nickname?
[15:44:57] <dkg> millican at the mic
[15:45:13] <dkg> sftcd: i think we're not even at the level of nickname
[15:45:31] <dkg> there's been some hand-waving about "credentials" which bind long-term pubkeys to nicks
[15:45:39] <dkg> but that's not been specified
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[15:46:00] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Identities are just public keys, still, I think.
[15:46:44] <sftcd> seems like that (change nick) may need to be different from joining to preserve history, in terms of handling the not-yet-figured-out credentials
[15:46:48] <sftcd> if they're authenticated
[15:47:18] <dkg> meetecho is looking really weird with multiple karthiks
[15:47:32] <dkg> Karthikeyan Bhargavan: you're kind of breaking up
[15:47:36] <Meetecho> dkg: we were checking the same thing
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[15:47:51] <m&m> we're getting about 1/3 phrases
[15:48:00] <Martin Thomson> Karthikeyan Bhargavan: you are breaking up badly
[15:48:14] <m&m> I'm going to need assistance for minutes on this one
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[15:48:45] <Sean Turner> It was a little garbled so sending to the list might help
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[15:49:49] <dkg> lucia ballard at the mic
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[15:52:36] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I assume the noise we get from Benjamin is either his mic rubbing on
something or his mic clipping (i.e., not anything that anyone other
than him can do something about)
[15:53:10] <Sean Turner> @kaduk - yes
[15:53:38] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> (We did tell him to up his gain, after all, so clipping seems
plausible)
[15:54:03] sftcd leaves the room
[15:54:16] <dkg> Stanislav Smyshlyaev at the mic
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[15:57:53] <Benjamin Beurdouche> Sorry for the mic, didn't realize...
[15:58:18] <dkg> raphael robert at the mic
[15:58:41] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Benjamin: it was just a minor thing; I used to do theatre audio
[15:59:01] <Benjamin Beurdouche> nice : )
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[16:01:10] <dkg> that was me at the mic
[16:01:39] <dkg> we are preparing a hum for wg adoption of protocol draft
[16:01:42] <Benjamin Beurdouche> Hum: in favor of adoption
[16:02:22] <dkg> there was a hum in the room for adoption, and silence against adoption
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[19:03:05] link2xt joins the room
[19:03:18] link2xt leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
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[19:04:11] vanitasvitae leaves the room
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[19:07:37] link2xt leaves the room: Stream closed by us: system-shutdown
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[19:42:07] 937q3UMe leaves the room
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[19:48:16] Nick leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[19:51:07] Nick joins the room
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[19:55:09] bhoeneis joins the room
[19:55:38] wseltzer@jabber.org joins the room
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[19:56:43] link2xt leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
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[19:57:30] link2xt leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
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[20:04:17] link2xt leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
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[20:14:16] link2xt leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[20:14:45] pep. leaves the room
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[20:26:54] link2xt leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
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[20:32:33] link2xt joins the room
[20:38:35] Mallory Knodel leaves the room
[20:38:58] Nick leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[20:39:07] Nick joins the room
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[20:46:14] Amankin joins the room
[20:46:36] Nick leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
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[20:51:53] Mallory Knodel leaves the room
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[21:08:00] m&m leaves the room: Disconnected: No route to host
[21:10:36] zinid leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Timed out waiting for stream resumption (connection-timeout)
[21:11:03] zinid joins the room
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[21:18:01] link2xt leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
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[21:18:50] Nick leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[21:19:02] link2xt leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
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[21:39:19] Zash leaves the room
[21:41:06] Nick leaves the room
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[21:50:06] Amankin leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[21:50:17] Amankin joins the room
[21:50:22] wseltzer@jabber.org joins the room
[21:51:06] wseltzer@jabber.org leaves the room
[21:54:05] Nick joins the room
[21:56:46] Amankin leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[22:02:25] link2xt leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[22:02:32] link2xt joins the room
[22:05:22] bhoeneis joins the room
[22:11:01] zinid leaves the room
[22:14:25] Amankin joins the room
[22:16:32] m&m joins the room
[22:18:10] Nick leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[22:18:10] Nick joins the room
[22:18:57] vanitasvitae leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[22:19:39] wseltzer@jabber.org joins the room
[22:19:45] vanitasvitae joins the room
[22:20:52] Nick leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[22:20:53] Nick joins the room
[22:20:59] vanitasvitae leaves the room
[22:31:45] pep. joins the room
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[22:45:54] Amankin leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[22:59:16] m&m leaves the room: Disconnected: No route to host
[23:04:50] m&m joins the room
[23:05:41] zinid leaves the room: Stream closed by us: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
[23:06:02] zinid joins the room
[23:12:02] Nick leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[23:21:07] m&m leaves the room: Disconnected: No route to host
[23:23:36] bhoeneis leaves the room
[23:23:36] wseltzer@jabber.org leaves the room
[23:28:01] Nick joins the room
[23:35:59] pep. leaves the room
[23:37:21] pep. leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[23:37:24] pep. joins the room
[23:41:06] stpeter leaves the room
[23:54:19] Nick leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
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