IETF
modern@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, March 26, 2015< ^ >
Room Configuration
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GMT+0
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[13:54:31] <Dan York 2> Meetecho: When will the session be opening up?
[13:55:04] <Meetecho> in a minute
[13:55:19] <Meetecho> we usually enable them 5 minutes before each session
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[14:02:01] <Dan York 2> We hear you
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[14:02:20] <Dan York 2> Audio sounds good
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[14:04:54] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> good morning!  my name is richard, and i'll be your jabber scribe today
[14:05:06] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> i'm assuming that you all have audio, so i don't need to transcribe
[14:05:21] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> please prefix any comments you would like relayed to the mic with "MIC"
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[14:07:35] <Jonathan Lennox> Is Henning on the video or is the camera still pointed at the chairs?
[14:07:47] <Adam Roach> Camera is on us for some reason
[14:07:57] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> meetecho: can you put the camera on the speaker?
[14:08:34] <Meetecho> will do
[14:08:44] <Meetecho> sorry missed the new speaker
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[14:09:30] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> there we go, thanks!
[14:09:40] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> he is not staying in the box :)
[14:09:58] <Adam Roach> Meetecho: We're using a consolidated deck, so there won't be presentation changes between speakers
[14:10:20] <Meetecho> Adam Roach: no problem, the slides are sent as a video feed directly from the beamer now
[14:10:32] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> back in the box, hennin!
[14:10:40] <Meetecho> :)
[14:11:12] <Dan York 2> As if we could possibly keep Henning in a box!
[14:11:14] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> meetecho: feature request: either (1) target tracking, or (2) a buzzer that goes off when the speaker leaves the box :)
[14:11:55] <Dan York 2> rbarnes_SCRIBE: an electric shock, perhaps?   Maybe attached to the microphone that you are holding?
[14:11:56] <Meetecho> a buzzer could get out of hand quickly :D
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[14:14:17] <dcrocker> Having a buzzer get out of hand would constitute a very strong negative reinforcement scheme.  That might not be a bad thing.
[14:14:36] <dcrocker> However, arguably, that's a /very/ small box...
[14:15:33] <dcrocker> Perhaps a simpler scheme is something quieter and more passive:  Have a laptop showing the speaker what the camera is showing.  They will detect themselves walking in and out of the picture...
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[14:15:53] <Dan York 2> Good idea, Dave.
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[14:16:53] <Dan York 2> Because only telecom geeks or strange people like me can remember telephone numbers...
[14:17:41] <Dan York 2> "linguistically neutral"
[14:18:12] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> what i was going to say: On the facebook/twitter point — have you installed a mobile app lately?  the first thing they do is verify your phone number
[14:18:34] <Jonathan Lennox> But that's mostly for two-factor, isn't it?
[14:18:51] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> of course, that's probably driven by a property that henning hasn't mentioned yet — that TNs tend to be strongly verified
[14:18:58] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> Jonathan Lennox: yeah
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[14:19:55] <dcrocker> Most of what Henning has been saying about problems with one identifier or another are part of a common refrain, over the years.  Mostly they observations tend to reflect personal experiences and preferences, rather than broad-based truths.  That many people hold these preference doesn't make them true when guiding design.
[14:20:18] <dcrocker> At base, any scheme has serious limitations; most also have serious benefits.
[14:21:05] <Dan York 2> rbarnes_SCRIBE: Or do the apps request a TN because they are "unique" among devices and therefore provide a unique key for a database?
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[14:21:47] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> Dan York 2: all of the above
[14:22:06] <dcrocker> TNs are, perhaps, strongly verified on assignment, but of course as STIR, etc., demonstrate, they aren't verified on reception with the start of a call.
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[14:22:10] <Dan York 2> rbarnes_SCRIBE: And being unique among users you can then easily connect people to each other if you are trying to create a new graph of connections.
[14:22:19] <Dan York 2> dcrocker: right
[14:22:35] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> dcrocker: yep, that's what i meant.  hope of STIR is to propagate that trust
[14:22:57] <dcrocker> And for throw-away phones and with sim cards, they aren't even strongly validated usefully on assignment.
[14:23:35] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> dcrocker: depends strongly on the jurisdiction.  i've had to provide a passport photo to get a SIM in multiple countries.
[14:23:41] <Jonathan Lennox> I think the property is that they're stable routing identities, so reachability at time T and reachability at time T+N has high likelihood of being the same entity.
[14:23:58] <Dan York 2> Jonathan Lennox: Good point
[14:24:17] <Jonathan Lennox> And in particular would be hard for an attacker to subvert.
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[14:25:25] <dcrocker> @jonathan - yup!
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[14:38:48] rbarnes_SCRIBE reminds John Levine that the IETF doesn't specify charging
[14:41:00] <John Levine> of course not, but telcos need something that supports it
[14:41:36] <John Levine> caller pays mobile isn't going away any time soon
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[14:42:50] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> John Levine: still not sure that's an issue for these tools.  
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[14:43:15] <John Levine> depends on who you expect to use them, I guess
[14:44:05] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> John Levine: what i mean is that the tools we're talking about are mostly for managing the allocation of numbers, not how numbers are used.
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[14:50:26] <Jonathan Lennox> 867-5309.
[14:51:23] <Adam Roach> Helpful hint (re Lennox's comment): the song "C is for Cookie" is good for knocking songs out of your head if they become stuck.
[14:52:25] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> Adam Roach: now i just have that in my head
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[14:57:32] <Franck Martin> Multi registry: Who has the deal of the week to register thousands of fake numbers with a stolen credit card?
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[15:00:59] <Franck Martin> Whois->weirds
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[15:07:12] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> jon peterson taking the stage
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[15:07:17] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> STAY IN THE BOX JON
[15:07:37] <Dan York 2> Jon - it's Texas... where's the cowboy hat???
[15:09:06] <dcrocker> He's wearing a new yorker's cowboy hat
[15:09:32] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> jon's fashion is sui generis
[15:14:04] <resnick> "We can't affect it" is probably an overstatement. We certainly can't *set* it.
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[15:18:21] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CA-xYVJWEAEyxR1.jpg:large
[15:18:27] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> oops, wrong window
[15:19:03] <resnick> But still a very enjoyable cartoon.
[15:28:12] <Franck Martin> in some jurisdictions, you can keep your phone number when you change providers
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[15:28:49] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> Franck Martin: yep, that's the "portability" that has been discussed
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[15:28:56] <Franck Martin> ok
[15:28:59] <Franck Martin> thanks
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[15:33:54] <ajsaf@jabber.org> I confess that I am finding this re-invention of the DNS delegation industry sort of hard to understand.
[15:34:17] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> ajsaf@jabber.org: it's a little different in that the namespace itself is not hierarchical
[15:34:28] <ajsaf@jabber.org> I suppose.  
[15:35:04] <ajsaf@jabber.org> it's true you can't read off the allocated object the authoritative registry for any given segment.
[15:35:09] <dcrocker> In order to scale, it will need to have hierarchy.
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[15:36:16] <dcrocker> But the comparison to the DNS is interesting also because it raises the question of why this capability needs to be specific to telephone number administration, rather to any kind of (arbitrary) identifier?
[15:36:41] <ajsaf@jabber.org> That was sort of my point.  We already have lots of examples of identifier allocation systems
[15:36:49] <ajsaf@jabber.org> this one doesn't seem that different.
[15:38:10] <dcrocker> My question at the mic about existing protocols was meant to get to the proposed semantics or, at least, a reasonable candidate offering the highest point of departure.  Since this is a wg-forming BOF, getting a reasonable sense of the point of departure helps to scope the effort and, therefore, get a sense of the work a wg will need to do.
[15:38:59] <Paul Kyzivat> audio has become choppy for me. Is it just me?
[15:39:09] <ajsaf@jabber.org> EPP was supposed to be generic.  I guess this is a way to discover whether it is :)
[15:39:22] <Jonathan Lennox> Jon is gesturing with the mic.
[15:39:34] <resnick> We've told him to just eat the mic.
[15:40:03] <dcrocker> so the pacman model we've seen w/meetecho applies to the speaker too?
[15:42:37] <ajsaf@jabber.org> I should note that there's no actual reason EPP wouldn't _work_ for registrant-registrar interaction; the real reason it never got used that way is that registrars like customer lock-on
[15:43:20] <resnick> And that may in fact why there would be resistance for doing it here.
[15:43:44] <ajsaf@jabber.org> well, yes
[15:43:48] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> i would note, however, that provisioning seems like kind of a secondary use case here.  much like there aren't really any standards for the domain holder / hosting provider relationship
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[15:47:07] <resnick> @rlb: Only if you maintain the architecture that promotes that lock-in.
[15:47:18] <resnick> If you're willing to ditch that, it could be interesting.
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[15:51:45] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> resnick: well, the question is whether CSPs actually need a standardized protocol
[15:52:09] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> vs. the twitter app on your phone verifying your number and telling the twitter server however it likes
[15:52:58] <resnick> Sure. I guess that leads to the question of which bits of architecture we are going to tackle. (And whether all of the parts that Henning laid out need to be tackled.)
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[16:05:23] <Dan York 2> 20 years or 18 months......
[16:05:34] <resnick> Somewhere in there.
[16:06:09] Dan York 2 looks at the IPv6 deployment work he is doing...
[16:06:48] <Dan York 2> Good news about this protocol would be the set of people to use these tools is a smaller number of entities
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[16:09:21] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> jon is past the point of forming sentences
[16:10:50] <Dan York 2> +1 for keeping the effort focused
[16:16:18] <rbarnes_SCRIBE> what i was going to say: just because in principle this could apply to a general flat identifier space doesn't mean we need to do it at that level.  we should do something focused here, and if it turns out to be a wild success, translate it to other namespaces.
[16:16:20] <dcrocker> @Dan, I see the issue as oddly lacking focus, by way of burying assumptions and dismissing concern for specifics.
[16:17:44] <Dan York 2> @dcrocker - I was responding to the interest in expanding this beyond telephone numbers
[16:18:01] <ajsaf@jabber.org> of course you need to have a policy-neutral protocol.  I don't see how that chooses winners and losers
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[16:20:45] <dcrocker> @Dan, so was I.  
[16:21:06] <Dan York 2> :-)
[16:22:10] <dcrocker> An example of what is missing is the range of scenarios (or relationships or roles) that must/should/might be supported.
[16:22:54] <dcrocker> In that regard, 'framework' is quite different from 'architecture' and both are massively different from 'protocol(s)'
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[16:23:48] <dcrocker> that was "protocol ( s )" that you might be seeing as  graphics
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[16:30:44] <Paul Kyzivat> hum: charter
[16:30:54] <Dan York 2> hum for charter
[16:30:57] <Mark Lindsey> hummmmm
[16:31:20] <Mark Lindsey> hummmmm
[16:32:41] <Paul Kyzivat> hum: wg
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