IETF
plenary
plenary@jabber.ietf.org
Wednesday, November 6, 2013< ^ >
Jack Moffitt has set the subject to: Plenary @ IETF87, audio stream: http://ietf87streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf874.m3u, Meetecho: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf87/tech_plenary/
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[16:19:25] Dan York has set the subject to: Plenary @ IETF88, live video/audio info at http://www.ietf.org/live/
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[16:31:48] <bortzmeyer> Good morning, everyone
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[16:39:22] <Perry Metzger> this starts in 20 minutes?
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[16:41:38] <Dan York> Perry Metzger: Yes
[16:42:04] <Dan York> At 17:00 UTC  (for bortzmeyer 's sake :-) )
[16:43:23] <thomas.mangin> or 17:00 BST - or 18:00 French time
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[16:45:13] <Perry Metzger> I am presuming opportunities for participation by remote people are quite limited, yes?
[16:45:39] <cmorgan> Please see http://www.ietf.org/live/
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[16:46:34] <bortzmeyer> Perry Metzger:you can talk in the Jabber room and it will be channeled by some scribes
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[16:58:51] <Perry Metzger> how long in will the discussion of hardening start? I've seen the agenda but I don't have a good sense of the time for the first several agenda items
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[16:59:37] <Randall Gellens> Perry, there is also a session after lunch on that
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[17:01:59] <Dan York76171> Russ Housely speaking
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[17:02:22] <Perry Metzger> youtube video says please stand by still.
[17:02:24] Arturo Servin joins the room
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[17:02:39] <Dan York76171> Try refreshing the page
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[17:02:48] <Lorenzo Miniero> FYI, a Meetecho room is available for this plenary: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf88/tech_plenary
[17:02:59] <Arturo Servin> in Youtube go to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV71hhEpQ20
[17:03:03] <Arturo Servin> it works
[17:03:05] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: IAB Chair Report
[17:03:07] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Highlights Since IETF 87 (1 of 2)
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[17:03:13] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Russ Housley
[17:03:14] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Highlights Since IETF 87 (1 of 2)
[17:03:15] Dan York joins the room
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[17:03:37] <Arturo Servin> Russ checking something in laptop …
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[17:04:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Highlights Since IETF 87 (2 of 2)
[17:05:03] <Chip Sharp> Thanks for the Youtube link.  It took a minute or so, but I'm not getting the video/audio
[17:05:04] <dyce> Hi, is there maybe a lack of streaming via yt?
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[17:05:21] <SM> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV71hhEpQ20
[17:05:25] <kaduk@jabber.openafs.org/barnowl> youtube streaming is fine for me.
[17:05:36] <Arturo Servin> YT works perfect to me
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[17:05:39] <dyce> not for me
[17:05:44] <Chip Sharp> Sorry for typo, I'm *now* getting the audio/video stream on Youtube.
[17:05:46] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Upcoming IAB Workshops
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[17:05:56] <Perry Metzger> URL for the Montevideo statement?
[17:06:00] <Hannes Tschofenig> Will there be a recording of the video stream?
[17:06:02] <SM> Chip, reload
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[17:06:26] <Arturo Servin> Montevideo Statement http://www.lacnic.net/en/web/anuncios/2013-declaracion-montevideo
[17:06:33] <Dan York> Perry - one statement: http://www.internetsociety.org/news/montevideo-statement-future-internet-cooperation
[17:06:36] <Arturo Servin> I do not have the other
[17:06:37] <SM> http://www.iab.org/documents/correspondence-reports-documents/2013-2/montevideo-statement-on-the-future-of-internet-cooperation/
[17:06:37] <Dan York> Hannes Tschofenig: Yes
[17:06:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Ongoing Appointments
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[17:06:41] <Arturo Servin> that russ showed
[17:06:51] <dyce> reloading yt does not work
[17:06:53] <Arturo Servin> thanks SM
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[17:07:06] <SM> dyce, try meetecho?
[17:07:06] <Dan York> Hannes Tschofenig: Yes, there will be a video recording
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[17:07:14] <dyce> ok SM
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[17:07:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> The link's here: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf88/tech_plenary
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[17:07:34] <Lorenzo Miniero> non YouTube quality for sure, but you get video :)
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[17:07:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Document Status
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[17:07:44] <SM> Lorenzo, the volume is a bit on the low side
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[17:07:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> yes, SM, sorry about that, we're tuning it as we speak
[17:08:11] <SM> Lorenzo, it is ok, venue issue:)
[17:08:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Standards Process  Oversight and App
[17:08:19] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: IAB PROGRAM REPORTS
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[17:08:26] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Lars Eggert
[17:08:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: IAB PROGRAM REPORTS
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[17:08:46] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
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[17:08:57] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: IRTF Open Meeting
[17:08:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: IRTF Meetings This Week
[17:09:03] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Lars Eggert
[17:09:04] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: IRTF Meetings This Week
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[17:09:10] <Dan York> dyce: Hmm... I'm showing 115 people connected to YouTube right now
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[17:09:37] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: IRTF RFC Publications since IETF-87
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[17:09:47] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Applied Networking Research Prize
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[17:11:08] <thomas.mangin> Youtube live channel broken for me or more than me ?
[17:11:14] <dyce> Dan York: ok - seems like flash killed itself
[17:11:22] <SM> It is broken, I am going back to my preferred vendor
[17:11:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[17:11:27] <Perry Metzger> I had lots of trouble joining the youtube live thing
[17:11:30] <Perry Metzger> persistence worked
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[17:11:39] <thomas.mangin> it is back
[17:11:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: RSE 
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[17:11:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: RFC Series Oversight Committee  (RSO
[17:12:01] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: RSOC Highlights
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[17:12:25] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: RSE Avenues of Communication
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[17:12:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: RFC Style Guide
[17:12:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: RFC Format
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[17:13:48] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Homework
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[17:14:15] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
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[17:14:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Technical Topic
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[17:14:48] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Alissa Cooper
[17:14:48] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Technical Topic
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[17:15:33] <Alessandro Amirante> @SM: is the volume level OK, now?
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[17:15:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Our Speakers
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[17:17:01] <thomas.mangin> volume fine for me
[17:17:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current Presenter: Bruce Schneier
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[17:18:11] <SM> Yes, it is better now
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[17:19:10] <Alessandro Amirante> OK, cool
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[17:34:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: We’ve been here (or nearby) before
[17:34:57] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Brian Carpenter
[17:34:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: We’ve been here (or nearby) before
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[17:35:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Ancient traditions
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[17:37:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Early efforts
[17:38:29] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: In fairness to the IAB
[17:38:36] <Hascall Sharp> One of the first mentions of ECHELON was 1988
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[17:39:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Public policy impact #1
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[17:40:23] <Hascall Sharp> Clipper Chip announced around 1993
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[17:41:19] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Outcome #1
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[17:43:19] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Public policy impact #2
[17:43:43] <Hascall Sharp> CALEA became law in 1994
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[17:44:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Outcome #2
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[17:45:08] <Hascall Sharp> FBI implemented Carnivore around 1997
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[17:46:05] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: Is there an underlying principle?
[17:46:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 10: Personal comment
[17:46:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
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[17:47:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: IETF Response  To Pervasive Monitorin
[17:47:14] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Stephen Farrell
[17:47:15] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: IETF Response  To Pervasive Monitorin
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[17:47:34] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: It's an attack
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[17:49:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: There are things we can do
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[17:51:04] <mcharlesr> my wifi dropped, just as Carpenter said, "will not be amused"
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[17:52:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: So let's do them
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[17:53:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Trusted Computing Base →Dodgy Comp
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[17:55:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6:  IETF Actions (“easy”)
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[17:57:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7:  IETF Actions (trickier)
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[18:00:29] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Conclusions
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[18:01:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
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[18:01:37] <Lorenzo Miniero> Open Mic discussion
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[18:14:16] <peerazmatshah> test
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[18:16:38] <rgb> mcharlesr_: that's also when mine dropped...
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[18:17:26] <Dan York> peerazmatshah: ack. it's working
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[18:17:49] <peerazmatshah> Thanks, Dan
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[18:22:25] <Chip Sharp> One of Snowden disclosures implied that the standards process was subverted.  I didn't hear anyone address what steps can be taken to restore trust in the standards process.  Did I miss something? (my audio/video dropped for a few minutes)
[18:22:48] <SM> Chip, there was a mention of reassurance
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[18:24:20] <Dan York> How is the video stream working for folks?  YouTube is telling us there are about 270 people connected right now
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[18:24:55] <Joseph> Dan York: It has been fine here, no drops, stable
[18:24:57] <Stephen Strowes> pretty stable here
[18:25:14] <Seun Ojedeji> Yeah its working now, although got disconnected few minutes ago - From Nigeria
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[18:25:51] <May Be> looking via meetecho now  - yt tells me everytime "video is not available"
[18:26:11] <SM> Meetecho is working for me.
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[18:26:37] <SM> Dan, do you want to take questions from this room for the mic?
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[18:31:11] <Phill > Any attack? Flying pixies?
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[18:31:57] <hartmans> Chip: Russ addressed confidence in the standards process at the top
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[18:32:30] <hartmans> The IAB has made a statement on what it believes the right approach is there; I think there is general support for that, but belief that there is support for that position is a personal opinion
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[18:32:42] <Dan York> sm: I can't personally take questions to the mic because I'm at the back monitoring live stream stuff.
[18:32:50] <Dan York> And Alissa also closed the mic lines
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[18:32:52] <Hascall Sharp> @hartmans - thx.  I had a little trouble getting the audio/video going at the beginning.  I can go back to the archive later.
[18:32:54] <SM> an, ok
[18:33:12] <Joseph> Documents may never finish if we try to cover every corner case.  I think there is merit in reevaluating what constitutes a corner case...
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[18:34:46] <hartmans> Well, we hope math is on the defender's side:-)
[18:35:39] <Joseph> hartmans: There is a heavy delay in the video stream, your comment finally made sense ;)
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[18:40:06] <hartmans> Responding to the modular security point: yes, that's directly a consequence of deciding not to consider wiretapping requirements in our standards
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[18:42:21] <jgunn> Audio stream just died
[18:42:25] <mcharlesr> Bruce said it: the facilities that we give enterprises are exactly what NSA used (just bigger).   The issue is, why is it okay for Enterprises to do surveillance without cause on their employees?
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[18:42:46] <Lorenzo Miniero> jgunn where? I'm monitoring our stream and it sounds fine
[18:42:54] <mcharlesr> And, if they are going to use GroupPolicy to push new trust roots into desktops so that they do surveillance, why not just tap the keyboard?
[18:42:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> http://www.meetecho.com/ietf88/tech_plenary
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[18:43:02] <SM> mcharlesr, it is a matter of jurisdiction
[18:43:03] <Perry Metzger> chrome preventing MITM attacks = feature, not bug.
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[18:43:19] <jgunn> It started again. Not sure what the problem was.
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[18:43:39] <Hannes Tschofenig> If you don't trust your employees then don't hire them.
[18:43:42] <hartmans> @mcharlesr: Our position is that we don't take a moral position...but we also don't consider those requirements.  Because, well, there's someone out there you don't want intercepting your data and there's no good way to support only the good guys
[18:43:42] <Arturo Servin> I think is not ok for enterprises to spy on their employees
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[18:44:08] <SM> mcharlesr, there is some discussion in one of the NEA RFCs
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[18:44:50] <mcharlesr> So I was once asked, as a consultant, by a Fortune 500, to provide drug test results to them before the consulting contract could be signed (it was all offsite, and was like 40hr/year).  I did some research and found out that actually, in Ontario, it was illegal for me to perform the drug test (on myself) and disclose that to any outside entity!...
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[18:45:50] <mcharlesr> hartmans: right, no good way to support only the good guys.... more to the point, the Enterprises have other ways to get the job they want to do done...  at higher cost.
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[18:51:05] <hartmans> Part of my point at the mic (interpreted in Harald's terms) is that sometimes we all want to hide.
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[18:52:29] <Seun Ojedeji> A way to make the users actually understand the need for security and also have the technical know-how to apply is one of the challenging aspect. Generally enterprises see know the need and have the technical know-how/can afford it. Most normal users can't and they still happen to unfortunately be at the receiving end. Perhaps policies that ensure certain level of security support by ISP to his/her users could be helpful
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[18:54:23] <hartmans> That sort of "policy" is probably outside IETF scope, although some things as guidelines in the form of best-current-practice or informational documents might be in our scope.
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[18:54:41] <hartmans> But saying what ISPs must give users is way outside of what we can/do in the IETF
[18:54:57] <Joe Hildebrand> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_corporation
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[18:56:08] <slm> the stmt made - officers must operate company for shareholders - has been the subject I've seen recently of articles that say that is an urban myth. (source: Washington Post, currently our oracle of truth).  wish I knew truth there.
[18:57:00] <Peer Azmat Shah> test using meetecho
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[18:57:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> test passed ;)
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[18:57:57] <Peer Azmat Shah> Thanks Lorenzo :-)
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[19:00:36] <Seun Ojedeji> Missing quite a lot due to my connection perhaps, any pointing to text(scribe)?
[19:01:04] <Seun Ojedeji> Missing quite a lot due to my connection perhaps, any pointer to text version (scribe)?
[19:01:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> Seun try an audio only stream if the video is eating too much bandwidth for you
[19:01:32] <SM> Seun, there is a recording of the video which you can watch afterwards.
[19:01:41] <Dan York> http://www.ietf.org/live/text.html is the a text transcription of the session
[19:01:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> yes, we'll make it available ASAP
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[19:02:54] <Dan York> The video streaming out of YouTube will appear on the IETF YouTube channel shortly after the session is done.  (We stop the streaming and YT automagically processes that and makes it available.)
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[19:04:53] <Brett Thorson> The video feed into Meetecho is different than the video feed over youtube?
[19:05:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> Brett it's lower quality but almost real-time
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[19:05:49] <Lorenzo Miniero> I think the YT one should be about 1 minute late (Dan correct me if I'm wrong)
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[19:06:01] <Brett Thorson> The two are almost syncd
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[19:06:09] <Brett Thorson> maybe 2-3 seconds difference.
[19:06:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> ok so I guess it was an issue on my side: when I tried it before there was a minute delay
[19:06:32] <Lorenzo Miniero> sorry for the misinformation!
[19:06:56] <Brett Thorson> hmm, actually.  You might be right.
[19:07:18] <Brett Thorson> Two different views now.  Yeah, you are right, about 60 seconds diff.
[19:07:54] <Brett Thorson> The quality of the youtube stream is very nice.  Who is in charge of it (I'd like to know what gear they are using).
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[19:08:42] <Seun Ojedeji> As a user i use TOR however my understanding is that its a proxy syncing of server and to a user using TOR is its may not be clear that the server being "proxied" though is not logging personal information. Also the technicality behind using TOR may not go well with many users
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[19:10:10] <Brett Thorson> Tor is more than just a proxy.  But yes, the traffic at the end point is as encrypted or unencrypted as the data you put into it.
[19:10:24] <Seun Ojedeji> Hmmm...the text is on "....ON WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING RECENTLY. BUT..."
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[19:12:04] <Brett Thorson> Wow.  What?!?
[19:13:18] <Seun Ojedeji> Text back @Brett it can be as slow here, i was referring to the scribe that i resolved to using which hung
[19:13:53] <Brett Thorson> @Suen, oh, that I understood.  I wasn't able to follow the previous gent. at the mic.
[19:14:40] <Brett Thorson> Don't have to minimize data, just choose where it is stored.  Like.. the cloud?  Maybe a private cloud?
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[19:15:01] <Brett Thorson> Given a password for a system could potentially reveal nothing if it is used solely as a terminal to access your data elsewhere.
[19:15:34] <Lorenzo Miniero> but if I'm abroad I may not have an easy access to that data this way
[19:16:15] <SM> Ah, Ted remembers that process trick:-)
[19:16:29] <Brett Thorson> @Lorenzo, true.  Access may be difficult.  Then if you need access to that data, best to have a device with 2 partitions :-)
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[19:16:36] <gmaxwell> Lorenzo Miniero: yea, this is something that works better for us citizens reentering the US (us customs doesn't hit you on exit…)
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[19:16:55] <Brett Thorson> I guess, displace the data if you can.  Prevent discovery of the data if you must.
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[19:18:36] <Seun Ojedeji> Hmmm, if the current/ last 3 months attack events does not really trigger any serious Yes/No move from the IETF how then will that of the future trigger something actionable
[19:19:09] <Brett Thorson> Coming late to the discussion.  Pointer to "what are these attacks being referenced"
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[19:19:21] <Perry Metzger> Attacks = ubiquitous surveillance.
[19:19:26] <Brett Thorson> Oh
[19:19:26] <SM> Brett, the powerpoint affair
[19:20:12] <Brett Thorson> Powerpoint affair?
[19:20:26] <hartmans> iWhat did I just hum for?
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[19:21:26] <Seun Ojedeji> Well the fact that that the Author has the capability to censor his/her work makes it a free society IMHO, it is perhaps when people censor another person that i think its not. Internet security should be self induced and the role of the techies is not to fence users but to create awareness for them and help them know how to be secured
[19:21:33] <SM> Brett, http://www.propublica.org/series/surveillance
[19:22:01] <Will Ivancic> How do I make my hum anonymous?
[19:22:09] <hartmans> Sit in this room
[19:22:11] <Seun Ojedeji> Well the fact that that the Author has the capability to censor his/her work makes it a free society IMHO, it is perhaps when people censor another person that i think its not. Internet security should be self induced and the role of the techies is not to fence users but to create awareness for them and help them know how to be secured
[19:22:13] <gmaxwell> will: be in the room.
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[19:22:16] <Brett Thorson> @SM Thanks
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[19:24:12] <Brett Thorson> Oh good.  I mean, putting security in protocols is a no brainer.
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[19:24:33] <Brett Thorson> The fact that "we should"
[19:24:34] <Jan-Ivar Bruaroey> We already have secure alternatives to dropbox. You can use WebRTC datachannels for file transfer
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[19:26:30] <gmaxwell> How? Maybe because we've learned from protocols like OTR which have been quite successful.
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[19:29:23] <Perry Metzger> I can't use WebRTC datachannels that way because I and my counterparties have no software that implements it nor a service to use it with.
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[22:47:55] <Robert Guerra> great technical plenary
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