IETF
QUIC
quic@jabber.ietf.org
Wednesday, July 20, 2016< ^ >
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
[07:36:12] JoeHallCDT joins the room
[07:37:27] richsalz joins the room
[07:37:41] richsalz has set the subject to: QUIC BoF at IETF-96
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[07:39:39] <JoeHallCDT> bunch of new slide decks up: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/96/materials/#quic
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[07:55:09] <richsalz> If you want something relayed put MIC at the front or ping me directly.
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[07:58:56] <Sean Turner> @chairs: you are super clear on the mic (Y)
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[07:59:55] <oej> richsalz: Are you in the middle of the room?
[08:00:10] <richsalz> just to the right of the projector.
[08:00:12] <oej> I may be able to help you cover the left-side mic
[08:00:31] <richsalz> ok sure
[08:00:37] <Aaron Falk> I think what's needed is to move the speakers closer to the front of the room from the sides
[08:00:48] <oej> There are many microphones in this room, so it's going to be tough if all are used
[08:00:49] <Aaron Falk> if you are in the middle, they are far way
[08:00:54] <Aaron Falk> agreed
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[08:02:00] <oej> Note well applies to remote participation too: https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well.html
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[08:02:47] <richsalz> charter: key points
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[08:03:47] <dkg> wget https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-quic-{0,1,2,3,4,5,6}.pdf
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[08:04:07] <richsalz> p5 Charter milestones
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[08:04:25] <richsalz> p6 consensus questions
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[08:05:27] <richsalz> mat ford talking
[08:05:29] <Sean Turner> :)
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[08:05:44] <oej> *** Laughter in the room **
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[08:06:14] <richsalz> Jana about to present
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[08:07:19] <dkg> this is  https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-quic-5.pdf
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[08:07:57] <richsalz> p2 quick and the ietf
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[08:08:14] <richsalz> p3 the quick experiment
[08:08:31] Eduardo Mendez leaves the room
[08:08:37] <richsalz> (typo: the QUIC experiment :)
[08:08:38] <JoeHallCDT> that's some subversive spelling there, @richsalz
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[08:09:10] <richsalz> p4 the ietf proposal
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[08:09:24] <tale> it is hard NOT to make that typo
[08:09:38] <Sean Turner> TLS1.3 slightly influenced by QUIC :)
[08:09:48] <richsalz> a deadly embrace.
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[08:10:18] <ted.h> @richsalz, no, the happy hug of friends
[08:10:20] <oej> The room is full, people are standing in the back
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[08:10:31] <richsalz> p5 standardized quick
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[08:10:55] <Sean Turner> negotiated it ;)
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[08:11:02] <richsalz> p6 quic design aspirations
[08:12:08] <richsalz> p7
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[08:12:16] <richsalz> p8 multistreaming...
[08:12:26] <richsalz> p9 . .. better loss recovery ...
[08:12:34] <oej> Hmm. Since we're using UDP - how do we handle Happy Eyeballs in QUIC?
[08:12:53] <richsalz> p10 multipath
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[08:13:16] <richsalz> p12 deployability and evolvability
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[08:13:26] <ted.h> @oej In the current experiment, it uses a happy-eyeballs like method to race against TCP.  What happens in the final version is, of course, up to the WG.  I'd expect v6 happy eyeballs to work pretty much the same.
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[08:14:01] <oej> Thanks @ted.h
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[08:14:26] <Kyle Rose> "quiche"
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[08:14:39] <richsalz> p13 ... version negotiation
[08:15:01] <richsalz> did folks get g-speak training to always use the phrase "the quic experiment" ? :)
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[08:15:16] <sureshk> @ted: does quic get a head start like IPv6
[08:15:22] <richsalz> p14 ... fully authenticated
[08:15:30] <ted.h> @sureshk No.
[08:15:42] <sureshk> Thanks Ted
[08:15:51] <ted.h> @sureshk Ian's preso will have a numbers on the comparison.
[08:16:08] <richsalz> p15 quic streams
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[08:17:01] <sureshk> @Ted: Great. Will check it out.  
[08:17:32] <richsalz> p16 congestion control and loss recovery
[08:17:48] <richsalz> p17 .. incorporated tcp best practices
[08:17:58] <oej> ** Currently 57 users in the chat room
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[08:18:25] <richsalz> p18 ... ... more details on best practices
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[08:19:15] <richsalz> p19 ... richer signalling than tcp
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[08:19:25] <richsalz> p20 richer signalling
[08:19:33] Spencer Dawkins joins the room
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[08:20:43] <richsalz> p21 ... more verbose ack
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[08:21:31] <JoeHallCDT> for remotes, a pic of the room snapped by Jari: https://twitter.com/jariarkko/status/755678230078783488
[08:21:57] <richsalz> p22 quic implementations
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[08:22:49] <richsalz> p23 debugging tools: wireshark
[08:22:55] <richsalz> p24 chrome debugging
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[08:23:17] <richsalz> Christian about to present
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[08:23:38] <richsalz> Implementing QUIC for fun and planning, title page
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[08:24:16] <richsalz> p1 why implementing quic
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[08:24:45] <Sean Turner> he's coming through fine for me
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[08:29:31] <richsalz> p2 update from july 2015
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[08:29:59] <SzilveszterNadas> Are there other option than shipping QUIC in OS or Chrome?
[08:30:04] Lee Howard joins the room
[08:30:12] <SzilveszterNadas> E.g. a standalone app, which can be called by other apps?
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[08:30:39] <oej> As a standardized transport I assume there will be some sort of socket interface to the OS
[08:30:46] <richsalz> p3 quic versus tcp/tls
[08:30:46] <oej> Just like UDP, TCP etc
[08:30:48] <JoeHallCDT> an app?!
[08:30:57] <Sean Turner> :)
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[08:31:32] <oej> At this point, since it's not a standard and just experimental, the stack is in the app, but that seems like a very short term solution
[08:31:33] <richsalz> quic can be certainly be shipped as a stand-alone library.
[08:31:59] <richsalz> doing that is a simple matter of defining an API :)  
[08:32:03] <Melinda> I think what you're talking about is that the implementations live in user space?
[08:32:08] <SzilveszterNadas> simple :)
[08:32:16] <oej> Not sure that "rapid innovation" is an argument for a technology. For me that is opposed to "mature"
[08:32:19] <oej> ;-)
[08:32:21] <richsalz> p4 next steps
[08:32:37] <SzilveszterNadas> I am in for rapid innovation.
[08:32:51] <richsalz> I think "rapid" is relative, esp compared to middlebox ossification
[08:32:56] <Sean Turner> rabid innovation
[08:32:57] <oej> @richsalz "simple matter" - right ….
[08:32:59] <SzilveszterNadas> At the same time maintaining which one you use is not simple
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[08:33:24] <richsalz> as in "simple matter of programming" :)
[08:33:44] <richsalz> mat ford talking
[08:34:27] <richsalz> Mirsoslav about to present
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[08:34:38] <richsalz> quic@akamai, title slide
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[08:34:46] <Sean Turner> sounds good btw
[08:34:59] <richsalz> p2 revised title "fast"
[08:35:00] <dkg> this is  https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-quic-2.pdf
[08:35:13] <richsalz> p3 the journey
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[08:37:11] <richsalz> p4 the challenges
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[08:39:38] <richsalz> p5 the plan
[08:40:22] <oej> Lars (chair) speaking
[08:41:13] <richsalz> ian swett about to present
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[08:41:34] <richsalz> title: quic deployment experience @google
[08:41:39] <richsalz> p1 timeline june 2013
[08:41:59] <richsalz> p2 april 2014
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[08:42:25] <richsalz> p3 deployment 2015
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[08:42:49] <richsalz> p4 deployment timeline 2016
[08:43:12] <richsalz> p5 deployment at google
[08:44:04] <richsalz> p6 fallback to http/2
[08:44:33] <richsalz> p7 quic: does it work?
[08:44:38] <Lars Eggert> we just ran out of blue sheet space - that doesn't happen often :-)
[08:45:17] <Yoav Nir> T-shirts too big ; blue sheets too small
[08:45:43] <JoeHallCDT> end of times… if there's a cookie problem, we'll all be looking for the last horseman of the apocalypse
[08:45:47] <Sean Turner> write on the wall :)
[08:45:56] <oej> haven't seen any blue-shaded sheet
[08:46:05] <richsalz> p8 measuring and monitoring
[08:46:20] <richsalz> you're not helping @yoav
[08:46:46] <richsalz> p9 performance of google properties
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[08:47:23] <richsalz> p10 where are the gains from?
[08:47:37] <richsalz> (I've got multi-second jabber lag right now, sigh)
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[08:48:28] <richsalz> Martin getting ready to present
[08:48:35] <richsalz> Title: QUIC and TLS
[08:49:08] <richsalz> p1 Background
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[08:49:37] <dkg> this is  https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-quic-1.pdf
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[08:49:40] <Andrew Sullivan> The "PCI compliance" reasoning is proof that deployment considerations often come from things we propellerheads think are stupid.
[08:50:08] <richsalz> And PCI hasn't even blessed TLS 1.1 or 1.2 yet
[08:50:12] <Andrew Sullivan> (where "stupid" means "not the most important thing on my list")
[08:50:24] <JoeHallCDT> but that your friends in policy land can perhaps help with, @Andrew
[08:50:24] <Sean Turner> @andrew: :)
[08:50:28] <Andrew Sullivan> there is that :)
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[08:50:41] <Andrew Sullivan> I have friends in policy land?
[08:50:47] <richsalz> p2: Security modularization classic
[08:50:53] <richsalz> p3 problems
[08:50:58] <JoeHallCDT> you do, let's storm the walls of PCI inertia
[08:51:12] <Andrew Sullivan> huzzah!
[08:51:38] <JoeHallCDT> @Lars or @trammel, can you move the cursor on the deck?
[08:51:42] <JoeHallCDT> ty
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[08:51:58] <richsalz> p4 TLS as a service
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[08:52:38] <Aaron Falk> $&$)(*%)$&!!!!  kicked off etherpad
[08:52:40] <Aaron Falk> $&$)(*%)$&!!!!  kicked off etherpad
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[08:53:16] <richsalz> p5 Benefits
[08:53:32] Paul Cosgrove leaves the room
[08:54:43] <richsalz> p6 complicatoins
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[08:56:24] <sftcd> so how can we know when 0rtt is safe in quic?
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[08:57:14] <richsalz> p7 handshake
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[08:58:12] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> So why didn't we use this for DNS Privacy instead of trying to layer over TLS/TCP
[08:58:17] <oej> ** 65 users in chat room
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[08:58:41] <richsalz> alison mankin talking
[08:58:48] <Andrew Sullivan> @Phill: maybe because the "we" isn't the same "we" in all cases?
[08:59:28] <dkg> Phillip Hallam-Baker: have you noticed that quic is still in rapid flux?
[08:59:30] <richsalz> cullen jennings
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[09:00:21] <richsalz> ted hardie talking
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[09:01:02] <richsalz> jana talking
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[09:01:36] <DanYork> +1 to Andrew's comments... different groups.  Good that many of us from DNS space are here hearing this.
[09:01:38] <richsalz> lars
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[09:02:10] <richsalz> jana
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[09:02:36] <JoeHallCDT> EKR
[09:02:59] <richsalz> ekr (speed-)talking
[09:03:48] <richsalz> lars
[09:03:51] <Sean Turner> I'm here remotely :)
[09:03:58] <DanYork> anyone else finding the "ietf" wifi network very slow right now?
[09:04:01] <richsalz> jana getting ready to present
[09:04:10] <richsalz> title: proposed work split
[09:04:17] <Andrew Sullivan> @Dan: I found it very slow so I changed networks
[09:04:19] <wseltzer@jabber.org> DanYork, wifi not very quic for me
[09:04:27] <dkg> this is  https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-quic-6.pdf
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[09:04:39] <dkg> i've got ~5 second lag
[09:04:42] <richsalz> p1 four initial documents
[09:05:16] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> dkg: yes but DNS over TLS depends on deployment of a feature requiring a stack upgrade (Fast start) for viability, DNS over QUIC does not.
[09:05:34] <richsalz> p1 ... iyengar loss recovery draft
[09:05:49] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> dan york: I am not just finding it slow, I am barely able to connect
[09:05:55] <gg bb> availability of a traffic generator using Quic transport??
[09:05:58] Takuya Miyasaka_6957 joins the room
[09:05:59] <Aaron Falk> I keep losing my IP
[09:06:11] <Aaron Falk> can someone complain to the NOC?  I'm taking minutes...
[09:06:11] <dkg> right, DNS over QUIC requires us to block on actual stability of the QUIC protocol ;)
[09:06:22] <richsalz> p3 ... thomson quic tls
[09:06:23] Martin Thomson joins the room
[09:06:30] <Andrew Sullivan> the 2.4ONLY network is working for me.  At least until you all move :)
[09:06:35] <richsalz> I think DNS over QUIC is a GREAT idea for the next mapping work
[09:06:44] <richsalz> p4 ... quic http2 mapping
[09:07:03] <sftcd> @phb/rich: yeah quic for dprive would make sense
[09:07:11] <richsalz> p6 scope and area
[09:07:22] <tale> That's why I'm here.
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[09:08:28] <Meetecho> FYI, NOC has been notified about WiFi issues in the room
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[09:08:38] <oej> Paul hoffman speaking
[09:08:50] <Sean Turner> btw - PH was fine from the get go
[09:08:50] <richsalz> paul hoffman talking
[09:09:00] <DY> @Andrew - yes I moved to 2.4ONLY and it's working… until everyone else moves.
[09:09:12] craigt joins the room
[09:09:12] <Sean Turner> remote works great btw ;)
[09:09:15] <Melinda> Hokum.
[09:09:22] <Kyle Rose> According to wifi analyzer, only one 5 GHz band has reasonable S:N from my seat. 2.4ONLY is working better, but not once everyone moves over :-)
[09:09:57] <craigt> glad to hear it wasn't just me...
[09:10:01] <Eliot Lear> jeez i guess i better stop streaming that movie…
[09:10:12] <richsalz> REMOTE FOLKS:  there are network problems getting things recorded in jabber, so please be patient with lags from jabber scribes/relays.  consider using meetecho.
[09:10:14] <ted.h> @Melinda which bit is hokum?
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[09:11:25] <gg bb> bittorrent or FTP over QUIC possible?
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[09:11:51] <Melinda> The need to put it all in one document.
[09:11:57] <JoeHallCDT> word up
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[09:12:03] <richsalz> lares
[09:12:03] <richsalz> pr0n?
[09:12:34] <sftcd> we are soooo not starting again with TLS
[09:12:34] <tale> Why all in one doc?
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[09:12:50] <JoeHallCDT> ask Paull Hoffman @tale
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[09:13:00] <Sean Turner> @stfcd: fully agree. full stop :)
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[09:13:50] <richsalz> phb talking
[09:13:50] <richsalz> Declare victory and move on.
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[09:14:06] <richsalz> Tom Herbert
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[09:15:27] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> UDP doesn't work in the datacenter?
[09:15:28] <panda> NOC Hat on: I'm looking at the wifi issue you are experiencing.  Thank you for your cooperation.
[09:15:32] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> News to me
[09:15:34] Eliot Lear leaves the room
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[09:16:02] <richsalz> @panda thank you!
[09:16:03] whatdafuq joins the room
[09:16:08] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> Ugh. No, it has to be user mode because it takes ten years to get into the stack
[09:16:40] <SzilveszterNadas> :)
[09:16:40] sftcd leaves the room
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[09:17:05] <richsalz> Jana talking
[09:17:13] Lars Eggert joins the room
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[09:17:34] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> A server is just the party responding to a communication.
[09:17:41] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> They are not just in datacenters
[09:18:27] ASullivan joins the room
[09:18:40] <richsalz> Ted talking
[09:18:41] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> richsalz: I was only suggesting declare victory on TLS, bit early to do it on QUIC
[09:18:42] Eliot Lear leaves the room
[09:18:46] <ASullivan> Clearly I shouldn't have mentioned the 2.4 network :-)
[09:18:46] hildjj leaves the room
[09:18:50] Eliot Lear leaves the room
[09:18:52] <whatdafuq> telnet over quic?
[09:19:15] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> I need INT 14 over quic
[09:19:23] <Sean Turner> @mic: no!
[09:19:53] hildjj joins the room
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[09:20:00] Eliot Lear joins the room
[09:20:04] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Just a generic "no" or a no for something specific @sean
[09:20:08] <richsalz> Ted
[09:20:08] <richsalz> Jana
[09:20:08] <richsalz> Brian Trammel
[09:20:08] <richsalz> Dave Crocker
[09:20:12] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> Coul I just point out that on Windows 10, HTTP runs out of the user space?
[09:20:32] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> It isn't the kernel but the HTTP bit is shared across processes and users.
[09:20:34] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> systemd-quic ?
[09:20:57] <Sean Turner> no worries Olie I didn't want to join the kernal vs user space debate
[09:21:28] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Not enough coffee yet, @sean
[09:21:40] <whatdafuq> "other non-HTTP protocols"!
[09:21:47] <richsalz> yes.
[09:21:53] <richsalz> michael tuexen
[09:22:09] <Yoav Nir> The assertion that "anyone who owns a server can install anything in the kernel" is false. Enterprises standardize on one or a few platforms like "Windows Server 2012" or "Ubuntu Server 16.04 LTS with this list of packages installed"
[09:22:18] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> There is nothing that stops the current QUIC design running in the kernel. But making the proposed change would FORCE it to run in the kernel and that would make it impossible to deploy for the intended purpose.
[09:22:19] <richsalz> totally agree @yoav
[09:22:32] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> ** Note: We still have Wifi issues so remote participation is lagged. Sorry
[09:22:43] <richsalz> ted
[09:22:53] <tale> It isn't clear to me why the IETF would even be architecting whether it must be in the kernel or in user space
[09:22:54] DanYork leaves the room
[09:22:58] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> @Yoav, concur.
[09:22:58] hildjj leaves the room
[09:23:03] <Eliot Lear> @take +1
[09:23:05] hildjj joins the room
[09:23:11] <Eliot Lear> sorry @tale +1
[09:23:12] sftcd1 joins the room
[09:23:13] <Sean Turner> @tale:agree
[09:23:22] <richsalz> IETF: what's a kernel?
[09:23:26] <whatdafuq> this is just for siloed apps. youtube app over tls over quic over udp. http app over tls over quic over udp.
[09:23:28] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> I sense consensus in the chat room
[09:23:29] <DY> @tale - +1
[09:23:35] jim joins the room
[09:23:40] <richsalz> Joe Hildebrand
[09:23:47] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> richsalz, it is what you find inside a NUT
[09:24:12] Katsushi Kobayashi5982 leaves the room
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[09:24:23] <DY> @Olle - I'm sensing a new suggestion for the Jabber-scribe guidelines… "For a large session, identify multiple scribes as backups and have them join different WiFi networks." :-)
[09:24:35] ASullivan leaves the room
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[09:24:50] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> @dy - yes, guess we need to update the current RFC :-)
[09:24:59] <jim> Just FYI from the NOC: We’re aware of wireless issues in the room and have adjusted power levels to balance users a bit better. This BOF is just too popular. :-) We will continue to monitor.
[09:25:01] <richsalz> @DY: Seriously, submit an errata
[09:25:21] <richsalz> @jim from NOC:  Thanks.  
[09:25:36] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> One scribe in a room like this is just not going to handle it.
[09:25:51] <JoeHallCDT> I'm not having the problems you all are having on WiFi… could be a combination of having arrived very early or VPN L2TP?
[09:25:53] <richsalz> Ted talking.  To coin a phrase
[09:26:24] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Joe Hildebrand (cisco hat on) continues
[09:26:42] <tale> rich: pun blargh
[09:27:02] <richsalz> Mark Nottingham
[09:27:07] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> *** Note: 78 users in chat room. Wonder how many remote? @meetecho?
[09:27:21] <Meetecho> we see 37 on Meetecho
[09:27:40] <richsalz> 37 on meetecho
[09:27:50] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Great
[09:28:01] Toru Asahina leaves the room: Disconnected: Replaced by new connection
[09:28:02] Toru Asahina joins the room
[09:28:17] <Lars Eggert> we had 251 on the blue sheets a while ago, and they are still circulating
[09:28:21] Tomohiro Fujisaki leaves the room
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[09:28:38] <richsalz> Jana
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[09:29:16] <richsalz> Mark Nottingham
[09:29:24] <Yoav Nir> I guess for what Christian has said, "kernel" should mean stuff that comes with the OS but also any library installed and usable by multiple apps
[09:29:33] <Yoav Nir> That's not a usable definition in any other context
[09:29:37] Sean Turner leaves the room
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[09:29:48] <richsalz> Ted
[09:30:07] Toru Asahina leaves the room
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[09:30:25] <richsalz> Lars
[09:30:30] Jonathan Lennox leaves the room
[09:30:31] <richsalz> Spencer
[09:30:34] ted.h leaves the room
[09:30:42] Kyle Rose joins the room
[09:30:53] <Lee Howard> Avoiding meeting conflicts is tough with multiple ADs
[09:31:00] <sftcd1> we have a quorum of everything here today
[09:31:08] ted.h joins the room
[09:31:16] Kyle Rose leaves the room
[09:31:20] Kyle Rose joins the room
[09:31:21] <richsalz> Mila Kuhlwind
[09:31:22] <Sean Turner> trying scheduling TLS :)
[09:31:25] <hildjj> just do all QUIC work in the plenary.
[09:31:36] <richsalz> #firstworldproblems  so tough being popular
[09:32:00] <richsalz> Richard Barnes
[09:32:06] Suresh Krishnan leaves the room
[09:32:13] <DanYork> hildjj: Ha!
[09:32:15] <JoeHallCDT> almost like we need a TLS BOF to get through the other stuff like puzzles for this IETF :/
[09:32:22] Suresh Krishnan joins the room
[09:32:23] Kyle Rose leaves the room
[09:32:24] <JoeHallCDT> (jk)
[09:32:27] <Eliot Lear> That's be Mirja Kühlewind
[09:32:36] <Sean Turner> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xZmlUV8muY
[09:32:59] JeffH amused as this backchan -> badattitood…
[09:33:13] <Lee Howard> Sean, we don't have the bandwidth for youtube right now
[09:33:14] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Jana responding
[09:33:15] Jonathan Lennox joins the room
[09:33:28] <Sean Turner> sorry
[09:33:37] Randell Jesup leaves the room
[09:33:47] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> "Please come uncomfortably close to the mike"
[09:33:51] <richsalz> Magnus Westerland
[09:33:55] Oliver Thorp joins the room
[09:33:57] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Westerlund
[09:34:05] <richsalz> tnx
[09:34:13] <sftcd1> used in many use cases where we've no clue about the impact of 0rtt replay
[09:34:53] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Jana speaking
[09:35:15] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Ted Hardie speaking
[09:35:53] <richsalz> Pat McManus
[09:35:53] hildjj leaves the room
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[09:37:46] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> "I really feel like I'm licking this microphone, which makes me uncomfortable" - Pat
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[09:38:48] <richsalz> Lars
[09:39:00] <richsalz> Colin Perkins
[09:39:19] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> ** Feel free to use the Meetecho queue if you want to participate. Please be brief
[09:39:33] richsalz leaves the room
[09:39:37] <Jonathan Lennox> "I'd like to focus on my one burning point, which has two essential subpoints." - Colin
[09:39:42] metricamerica joins the room
[09:39:53] richsalz joins the room
[09:40:03] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> ** If you are *not* in the room and use Jabber for remote participation, please use the "mic:" prefix and we'll relay
[09:42:23] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Lorenzo ??? speaking
[09:42:32] <hildjj> Lorenzo Colltti
[09:42:55] Hirochika Asai_8302 joins the room
[09:42:59] <ASullivan> "Future proof"?  Is that basically a request to make hourglasses without a waist?
[09:43:03] <hildjj> Collitti
[09:43:36] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> The principle value of encryption is found to be to stop clueless middlebox hacks
[09:43:50] <Yoav Nir> Has any middlebox maker ever said anything like that?
[09:44:18] Lars Eggert leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[09:44:18] Lars Eggert joins the room
[09:44:18] <ASullivan> @Yoav: to a first order approximation, I think yes
[09:44:21] <richsalz> Christian
[09:44:31] <richsalz> Ted
[09:44:43] Eliot Lear leaves the room
[09:44:55] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> The queue is long
[09:45:03] <tale> … to the extent that they participate in IETF at all
[09:45:35] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> @rich - moved closer to second mike
[09:45:43] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Lorenzo again
[09:45:58] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Göran Eriksson
[09:46:11] <richsalz> Thanks Olle
[09:46:58] <richsalz> Jana
[09:47:13] <richsalz> Laras
[09:47:18] <richsalz> Lars
[09:47:26] <richsalz> (Isn't Laras a type of pokemon?)
[09:47:35] hildjj leaves the room
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[09:47:46] panda leaves the room
[09:47:51] <richsalz> Ben Schwartz
[09:47:52] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> ??? No name tag!
[09:48:25] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Pls use name tags to assist scribes and note-takers.
[09:48:43] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Magus Westerlund speaking
[09:48:48] <ASullivan> "could ossify on 443"?  As though that isn't already a problem/
[09:48:51] <ASullivan> ?
[09:48:52] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> s/Magus/Magnus/
[09:48:59] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> "We need an API" - Magnus
[09:49:04] <sftcd1> an API could help a bit with the 0rtt issue maybe
[09:49:23] <richsalz> API: socket() and setsockopt()
[09:49:29] <Kyle Rose> don't need to lick the front mic
[09:49:29] <sftcd1> everyone should use the front mic
[09:49:30] <richsalz> Mat Ford
[09:49:41] Eliot Lear joins the room
[09:49:57] <richsalz> Ian
[09:50:00] <hildjj> I do agree with hiding the version number, btw.  I like the idea of hidden feature discovery as an alternative.
[09:50:34] <richsalz> Jana
[09:50:37] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Dan Druta speaking
[09:51:00] magnus leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
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[09:51:43] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> For hotels, we need Quick over UDP over TCP/443 to work.
[09:51:43] Eliot Lear leaves the room
[09:52:05] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Adam Roach coming up
[09:52:14] <richsalz> Lars
[09:52:19] <Kyle Rose> Anything we can do to neuter middleboxes with respect to protocol injection/rewriting, we should do, and it sounds like that's the plan from the very beginning so everyone seems in violent agreement. Visibility for traffic management may be okay modulo privacy concerns, but it's not clear that the info should come directly from bits in the connection.
[09:52:37] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> @kyle - if you want relay, please prefix with "Mic:"
[09:52:45] <DanYork> Awesome moment... Adam Roach's family just brought him birthday cake *in the mic line*.  :-)
[09:52:51] Eliot Lear joins the room
[09:52:54] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> ** Meetecho participation in the mic line is open for business and it's awsome
[09:52:54] ctruchan joins the room
[09:53:11] <richsalz> Lars
[09:53:20] <Kyle Rose> Olle: I'm in the room. Just pontificating.
[09:53:27] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> (I want to see silly pacman ghosts on the screen)
[09:53:35] <Kyle Rose> I don't see a compelling reason to stand up and say "me too!"
[09:53:37] <Martin Thomson> can we not do live editing in this session?
[09:53:38] <richsalz> Dan Druta
[09:53:39] <Meetecho> FYI for folks on Meetecho: the Etherpad session they're using is integrated in the UI, just click the document icon in the upper right (snd from the right)
[09:53:54] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> @kyle ack, just checing
[09:54:07] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> s/checing/checking/
[09:54:23] <Kyle Rose> czeching?
[09:54:26] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Ted Hardie trying to get some words in the discussion
[09:54:36] <JoeHallCDT> +1 @mt
[09:54:48] <richsalz> -1 @mt.  Room too big.
[09:55:17] <Eliot Lear> +1 to what ted said
[09:55:20] yuki goto leaves the room
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[09:55:23] Lars Eggert leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[09:55:32] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Oh, the chair left the room ;-)
[09:55:59] William Jensen joins the room
[09:56:01] <Eliot Lear> but also need some sort of directionality
[09:56:23] <richsalz> Jana talking
[09:56:28] yuki goto leaves the room
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[09:57:03] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> We need a BCP on management of mic-lines and possibly mic-line keep-alives
[09:57:39] <craigt> and as a broadcaster: a BCP on mic types and their usage
[09:58:11] <richsalz> Spencer
[09:58:11] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> …and the distance between mouth and mic ...
[09:58:19] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Adam Roach
[09:58:20] <richsalz> Adam Roach
[09:58:21] <craigt> exactly how and where to lick it, yes
[09:58:27] Lee Howard leaves the room
[09:58:34] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> …and desinfect it…
[09:58:48] Eliot Lear leaves the room
[09:59:13] <Simon Pietro Romano> This is just the latest fashion BOF effect!
[09:59:18] geir joins the room
[09:59:26] Jonathan Lennox joins the room
[09:59:29] <Simon Pietro Romano> Won't be so crowded in the future...
[09:59:31] <ASullivan> We could just decide that we'll run quic in IETF plenary sessions
[09:59:40] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Cullen Jennings speaking
[09:59:46] <JeffH> is PLUS an evolution of SPUD ?
[09:59:46] Jonathan Lennox leaves the room
[10:00:07] <Barry Leiba> JeffH: yes
[10:00:14] <JeffH> thx
[10:00:21] Yoav Nir joins the room
[10:00:26] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> "We need to think about peer to peer early" - Cullen
[10:00:28] <Kyle Rose> If you want to hijack dhc or rtgwg ("consensus"), now's the time
[10:01:29] Martin Thomson leaves the room
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[10:02:16] <Eliot Lear> +1 to what cullen said
[10:02:17] Jonathan Lennox joins the room
[10:02:17] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Jana speaking
[10:02:33] <SzilveszterNadas> @Meetecho: any ideas, why voice becomes impossible to understand when I download another page in Firefox? (Mettecho tab is also in Firefox)
[10:02:57] <Eliot Lear> +1 to what cullen said
[10:03:01] <Meetecho> Szilveszter Nadas: possibly bandwidth issues
[10:03:26] <Meetecho> I have 6 sessions open in different tabs and they all work fine for me :)
[10:03:31] <ASullivan> It seems to me that when someone brings us a protocol for standardization that only fails for 5% of users, we're surely doing something right
[10:03:53] <Barry Leiba> AHS: +1
[10:03:54] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Ted Hardie speaking
[10:04:05] <Eliot Lear> but it's not 5% of users.  it's 5% of users going to Google.
[10:04:09] <JeffH> @asullivan +1
[10:04:22] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Cullen responding
[10:04:24] <ASullivan> Sure, but this is the _beginning_ of a standardization effort
[10:04:27] <JeffH> that said, seeing more data would be good
[10:04:30] <Simon Pietro Romano> The odd thing is that they're indeed "bringing" their protocol to us.
[10:04:47] <ASullivan> sounds like something the WG needs to hammer on, maybe during chartering about scope
[10:04:54] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Prepare for humming
[10:05:06] <Simon Pietro Romano> It'd have been more fun if we had standardized such a protocol "within" the IETF.
[10:05:17] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Wouter Cloutens speaking
[10:05:22] Matthew Ford joins the room
[10:05:55] <ASullivan> An awful lot of people think that the way to successful protocols is to get something more or less working before you come to the IETF.  (I am agnostic about this.)
[10:06:08] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Kevin Smith speaking
[10:06:26] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> "quick was ahead of TCP" - on mobile networks - Kevin
[10:06:31] Lars Eggert leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[10:06:40] <Simon Pietro Romano> Sad, yet true. We're mostly ratifying other people's stuff in the lsat few years.
[10:06:46] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> s/quick/quic/ - autocorrection hasn't learned about quic yet
[10:07:15] <richsalz> Lorenzo
[10:07:16] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Lorenzo
[10:07:18] <Matthew Ford> it's all other people's stuff at some point isn't it?
[10:07:34] <ASullivan> And https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5218 has something to say about the history of that
[10:07:44] <Simon Pietro Romano> Ditto.
[10:08:07] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Do you bring innovation to the IETF or do you innovate at IETF meetings?
[10:08:11] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> ;-)
[10:08:14] Lars Eggert joins the room
[10:08:19] Eliot Lear leaves the room
[10:08:31] <ASullivan> I'm not sure it's a true dichotomy
[10:08:33] <Simon Pietro Romano> ...this is the question!
[10:09:13] <Phillip Hallam-Baker> ASullivan, there are two schools of thought on that...
[10:09:15] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Joe Hildebrand
[10:09:28] yuki goto leaves the room
[10:09:38] yuki goto joins the room
[10:09:53] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Lee Howard and Mark Nottingham waiting in queue - spencer at another mic
[10:10:15] JeffH leaves the room
[10:11:13] <Simon Pietro Romano> My personal feeling is that the we're mostly putting the "standard" mark on top of things that have not been engineered as part of an IETF effort. Just this.
[10:11:32] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Wrong - Spencer was just hovering around the mic area, he seems to not be in queue
[10:11:39] <Simon Pietro Romano> That said, QUIC is OK.
[10:11:49] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Jana speaking
[10:12:00] <richsalz> Jana
[10:12:07] JeffH joins the room
[10:12:26] <richsalz> Ted
[10:12:26] hildjj leaves the room
[10:12:42] Lee Howard joins the room
[10:13:10] <Barry Leiba> SPR: It's a difficult balance to decide when the stuff you're trying out and prototyping is ready to bring to the IETF.  Not everyone agrees about when that needs to be, and whether it's OK to standardize something that was brought here "later".
[10:13:14] Eliot Lear joins the room
[10:13:14] <JeffH> perhaps someone can splain at some point what the intersection and diffs are between:  quic, plus, and taps ?
[10:13:15] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Daniel Stenberg confirms in Twitter that CURL wants QUIC too
[10:13:43] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Mark Nottingham speaking
[10:14:02] Eliot Lear leaves the room
[10:14:05] <Simon Pietro Romano> Barry: QUIC is much more than a "prototype" at this stage.
[10:14:10] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> @barry Testing in labs and the kind of use we see here are quite different things…
[10:14:24] <richsalz> Ted talk
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[10:14:35] <Barry Leiba> As I say, not everyone agrees about "how late" is reasonable.
[10:14:42] <Simon Pietro Romano> QUIC is a widely deployed solution, by a giant player in the Internet.
[10:14:59] <richsalz> It's a widely deployed experiment
[10:15:07] <richsalz> Jana
[10:15:26] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> * Chairs are preparing hum session
[10:15:37] <Barry Leiba> (Also, remember that we've been talking about this in the IETF, at some level or other, for well over a year now.)
[10:15:39] <Simon Pietro Romano> "Experiment" means different things to different people.
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[10:16:02] <richsalz> I guess "it depends on what the meaning of is is"
[10:16:07] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Adam Roach approach the mic
[10:16:23] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> "Do you have something really QUIC" ? asks the chair
[10:16:31] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Or maybe he meant "Quick" … ;-)
[10:16:37] <Kyle Rose> If someone else first designed something that it turns out everyone wants, potentially with some tweaks, I'm not sure what the problem with standardization is other than NIH ("not invented here"). Design by committee is not usually a good approach.
[10:16:51] <metricamerica> A key point is that further development will occur in the IETF. The fact that they're bringing the work here means they're handing it over to development by the larger community, irrespective of how developed it is not.
[10:16:56] <metricamerica> *now
[10:17:03] <richsalz> To participate in the hum, please say "hum yes" or "hum no" when the question is asked
[10:17:05] <Lee Howard> Design by committee is what we do here.
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[10:17:38] <Kyle Rose> Not usually from scratch. A protocol usually starts with a few people, and evolves with conversation.
[10:18:05] <Lee Howard> Then I don't understand your point.
[10:18:22] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Question one: "Is the problem statement clear, well-scoped, solvable and useful to solve?
[10:18:32] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> (from the slide)
[10:18:39] <Kyle Rose> I'm trying to knock down the straw man of "Everything should originate within the IETF." What does that even mean? The folks who designed QUIC *are* part of the IETF. They went off, did an experiment, found it worked pretty well, and brought it here for further evolution and standardization. WIN.
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[10:18:44] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Joe Hildebrand waiting at mic
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[10:18:55] <Lee Howard> Ah. Okay, I missed that assertion.
[10:19:11] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Spencer as AD
[10:19:29] <richsalz> I'm gonna ask the room commentary to hold off when the hums are going on so we can quickly get a consensus via.
[10:19:41] <whatdafuq> @kyle rose that's basically how TLS started too
[10:19:45] <Kyle Rose> To be clear, it was mostly a response to questions about whether it's been brought in "too late". I don't even understand what that means, TBH.
[10:20:09] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> TLS was started as SSL and trademarket/copyrighted by Netscape communication…
[10:20:11] <Kyle Rose> @whatdafuq Agreed.
[10:20:19] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Brian as chair speaking
[10:20:47] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Ted Hardie speaking
[10:20:57] <richsalz> And as for humming, please use uppercase for YES and lowercase for no to make it easier to scan.
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[10:21:18] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> No emoji allowed in humming
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[10:21:32] <ASullivan> A thing I like about our tradition of humming is the question-asking-design-by-committee
[10:21:45] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Like 👎
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[10:22:39] <Sean Turner> q1: hum - yes
[10:22:43] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Question 1 (repeat): "Is the problem statement clear, well-scoped, solvable, and useful to solve? (YES/no) "
[10:22:44] <Martin Stiemerling> hummmmm
[10:22:48] <Lennart Schulte> hummmmm
[10:22:55] <gg bb> hm
[10:23:00] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> No "no" hums
[10:23:06] <Suresh Krishnan> hmmmmm
[10:23:13] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Was that a no?
[10:23:22] <Martin Stiemerling> I am willing to review
[10:23:23] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Please say "Hum YES" or "hum NO"
[10:23:29] <Suresh Krishnan> Olle. It is a hum YES
[10:23:36] <Martin Stiemerling> I did say HUM/YES
[10:23:40] <Sean Turner> q2: hum yes
[10:23:45] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> because of lag, just a "HUM" can't be parsed
[10:23:45] <hildjj> To be clear for the minutes, what I heard from Lars was that the conversation about path conversation is not explicitly out of scope, and should be allowed.  Both current Transport ADs agreed.
[10:23:51] <Martin Stiemerling> Me willing willing to edit docs
[10:23:54] Jonathan Lennox is willing to comment on the list without reading documents. :-)
[10:23:57] <Suresh Krishnan> Q2: hum YES
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[10:24:08] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> @jonathan - no cookie for you.
[10:24:17] <Martin Stiemerling> Humm for Yes on forming a WG
[10:24:29] <Sean Turner> q4: hum yes
[10:24:40] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Chair declare clear consensus on both hums
[10:24:47] <richsalz> strong consensus for YES on both hums.
[10:24:47] <Suresh Krishnan> q4: hum YES
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[10:25:03] <richsalz> Dozens of volunteers for both tasks.
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[10:25:12] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Spencer Dawkins speaking
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[10:25:38] <Olle E. Johansson at IETF Berlin (GMT+1 DST)> Thank you all. See you in the WG lists!
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[10:26:28] <gg bb> anyone for writing an sFTP over quic app?
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