IETF
QUIC
quic@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, November 15, 2016< ^ >
richsalz has set the subject to: QUIC BoF at IETF-96
Room Configuration
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[00:24:38] bortzmeyer has set the subject to: QUIC Working Group at IETF-97
[00:24:46] <Aaron> I'm jabber scribe.  Please preface any comments to be relayed by **mic**
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[00:25:46] <Aaron> agenda link:  https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/97/agenda/quic/
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[00:29:55] <Aaron> etherpad (for correcting name spelling, comment accuracy, etc): http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-97-quic?useMonospaceFont=true
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[00:31:38] <Aaron> ### Administrivia
* 2 min - Blue sheets / scribe selection / [NOTE WELL](https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well.html)
* 3 min - Agenda bashing
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[00:32:15] <Aaron> Note well the note well
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[00:34:19] <Dan York> Am I not properly caffeinated… or are these chair slides NOT on the Materials page?  https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/97/materials#quic
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[00:34:43] <Dan York> None of the slides there seem to be the ones we are looking at.
[00:34:56] Aaron has set the subject to: QUIC charter overview
[00:34:58] <Lars Eggert> really? what slides do you see? (meetecho help)
[00:35:21] <Meetecho> we see "Charter overview" in our monitor here
[00:35:26] <Meetecho> is it the wrong slide?
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[00:36:05] <Meetecho> although I think Dan was talking of the materials page
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[00:36:08] <Praveen Balasubramanian> I dont see any slides
[00:36:09] <Meetecho> not the slides in Meetecho
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[00:36:38] <Aaron> Chairs confirmed these slides have not been posted
[00:36:40] <Lars Eggert> slides are up: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-97-quic-quic/00/
[00:36:40] <Dan York> Sorry for the confusion… I'm in the room… and I was looking for the slides on the Materials page.  I was just asking the room for a sanity check as I wasn't finding them.
[00:36:41] <Lars Eggert> sorry
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[00:37:12] <Dan York> "… asking the *jabber chat* room …"
[00:37:29] Dan York needs to step outside for another cup of tea...
[00:37:40] <Meetecho> Praveen Balasubramanian: if WebRTC doesn't work for you, there's a Flash-based fallback here (slides+audio only), http://conf.meetecho.com/video/?s=grandballroom1&r=quic&c=8897055
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[00:40:12] <Kaoru Maeda> slides:
[00:40:12] <Kaoru Maeda> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-quic-quic-00.pdf
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[00:40:37] <ted.h> For consider, I believe "document" was meant
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[00:41:15] <Praveen Balasubramanian> I can access the slidesthanks. They are not showing up in meetcho. Just video, audio and chat.
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[00:41:38] <whatdafuq> mic: this slide is a non sequitur. None of the current practices that QUIC is going to ignore deal with the tensions described in 7258.
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[00:42:36] <Sean Turner> so much for boring ;)
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[00:44:50] <JeffH> what he said :)
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[00:49:53] <Simon Pietro Romano> Is there anything better than Meetecho :-) ??
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[00:51:24] <Simon Pietro Romano> Those nonbelievers...
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[00:58:54] aaron has set the subject to: Jana - draft-hamilton-quic-transport-protocol
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[01:02:53] <erik> 21 machines is 352,321,536 machines if you use the correct byte order.
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[01:04:30] <Samuel Jero_> hand
[01:04:35] <Lucas Pardue> hand
[01:04:38] <Erik Nygren_8783> hand
[01:04:45] <whatdafuq> hand
[01:04:59] <John Border> hummmmm
[01:04:59] <Samuel Jero> hummmmm
[01:05:01] <Erik Nygren_8783> hummmmm
[01:05:01] <Lucas Pardue> hummmmm
[01:05:05] <Craig T> hummmmm
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[01:05:30] <Craig T> all for
[01:05:47] <Craig T> timing
[01:05:48] <Kyle Rose> Maybe forrrrrrrrrrr vs. againnnnnnnnnst?
[01:05:52] <whatdafuq> timing was clear
[01:06:00] aaron has set the subject to: Ian - draft-iyengar-quic-loss-recovery
[01:06:14] <Craig T> they were all submitted (mine last) before the humm against
[01:08:18] <Sean Turner> the shades have been drawn!
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[01:10:46] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowl69069040> Time for the red ... wedding^Wdiscussion^Wbattle^Wnegotiations?
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[01:11:36] <bortzmeyer> kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowl69069040:  /me hums "The rains of Castamere"
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[01:12:34] <aaron> another hum coming.  please indicate "for" or "against"
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[01:12:47] <bortzmeyer> kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowl69069040:  "And who are you, Google, \ that I must bow so low? \ And use your protocol?"
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[01:13:40] <ted.h> Charter text:  Work on congestion control will describe use of a
standardized congestion controller as a default scheme for
QUIC. Defining new congestion control schemes is explicitly out of
scope for this group.
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[01:17:14] aaron has set the subject to: HUM in favor of adopting draft-iyengar-quic-loss-recovery as wg doc
[01:17:47] <Samuel Jero> hand
[01:17:49] <Lucas Pardue> hand
[01:18:02] <John Border> hummmmm
[01:18:03] <Samuel Jero> forrrr
[01:18:06] <Bernard Aboba> hummmmm
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[01:18:07] <Erik Nygren_8783> hummmmm
[01:18:09] aaron has set the subject to: HUM opposed to adopting draft-iyengar-quic-loss-recovery as wg doc
[01:20:03] aaron has set the subject to: Martin - draft-thomson-quic-tls
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[01:32:39] aaron has set the subject to: HUM in favor of adopting draft-thomson-quic-tls as a wg doc
[01:32:58] <Samuel Jero> forrrr
[01:33:00] aaron has set the subject to: HUM opposed to adopting draft-thomson-quic-tls as a wg doc
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[01:40:44] <Lucas Pardue> hand
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[01:48:29] <Sean Turner> agree with what Pat said
[01:49:11] <JeffH> agree w/MT, adopt doc and then have discussion
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[01:49:33] <Sean Turner> agree with MT too
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[01:51:29] <aaron> HUM in favor of adopting draft-shade-quic-http2-mapping as a wg doc
[01:51:32] <Lucas Pardue> hummmmm
[01:51:33] <Randell Jesup> hum to adopt
[01:51:34] <Craig T> hummmmm
[01:51:36] <Samuel Jero> for
[01:51:39] <aaron> HUM in opposed to adopting draft-shade-quic-http2-mapping as a wg doc
[01:52:52] <aaron> (that was a failed attempt to set a topic, not a hum opposed)
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[01:53:00] <JeffH> :)
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[01:55:10] <JeffH> what is doc mirja just mentioned?
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[01:55:38] <Sean Turner> "fresh mapping"
[01:55:55] <JeffH> thx — is it an I-D ?
[01:56:11] <Sean Turner> I don't think so yet ...
[01:56:16] <JeffH> gotcha
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[01:56:19] <Barry Leiba> I've often thought that someone should write a "lorem ipsum" draft, and then propose that it be adopted in a working group with the explanation that everything can (will) change as the document is developed by the WG.
[01:56:43] <ted.h> So, I heard rough consensus; while I am happy to get information on why folks were in the rough, we seem to be in a clear place.
[01:56:47] <Sean Turner> if we not expecting somebody else to show up with some other draft then this is just theatre
[01:56:51] <ted.h> Did I mess that up?
[01:57:09] <Sean Turner> nope I agree ;)
[01:57:23] <Erik Nygren_8783> There may also be value in leveraging draft-bishop-decomposing-http-01 (but that is probably an http wg item) and I'm not sure that needs to block deciding on this fork.
[01:57:54] <Roy Fielding> or perhaps several more documents, depending on how you define HTTP mappings
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[01:58:12] <Phill Hallam-Baker> Mic: I think it is a mistake to think of there being a 'HTTP' mapping at this stagr. The needs of web browsing and web services have diverged. Web services don't need 90% of what is in HTTP but they do need MUX.
[01:58:46] <Sean Turner> @EN: I agree
[01:58:53] <Phill Hallam-Baker> We are going to end up with multiple mappings. That is a consequence of that negotiation mechanism.
[01:59:42] <Martin Thomson> PHB: then let them eat TCP
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[02:00:40] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowl69069040> I thought one editor per document was better than two editors per
document
[02:00:41] aaron has set the subject to: Editor assignments
[02:00:59] aaron has set the subject to: Parking Lot Topics
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[02:01:17] <Barry Leiba> Need a backup in case one editor gets too busy, on vacation, sick, etc.
[02:01:20] <Sean Turner> @MT: I sense a T-shirt
[02:01:35] <Barry Leiba> Two is usually better than five, but two is good.
[02:02:10] aaron has set the subject to: Brian - draft-trammell-plus-statefulness & QUIC
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[02:02:15] <Roy Fielding> Two editors is usually better for specs, assuming they work well together.
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[02:02:45] <Barry Leiba> And the two will usually pick one as the holder of the pen.
[02:03:03] <JeffH> ptr to these slides?
[02:03:13] <Kaoru Maeda> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-quic-flow-state-signaling-and-quic-00.pdf
[02:03:19] <JeffH> thx
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[02:04:35] <Phill Hallam-Baker_8223> MT TCP is actually better for most things. But Web Services need more end point identifiers than TCP allows, they need multiple streams., some other stuff.
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[02:21:24] <JeffH> who at mic?
[02:21:30] <aaron> Tim Shepherd
[02:22:06] <JeffH> thx
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[02:23:01] <Erik Nygren_8783> At least some of the concerns in the PLUS BOF were due to over-generalizing it and not necessarily against limited specific use-cases.
[02:23:04] <ted.h> It rather amazes me that a group that has both PMTUD and happy eyeballs is so resistant to discovery on this.
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[02:23:19] <ted.h> Possibly I simply need more caffeine.
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[02:23:29] <JeffH> PMTUD ?
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[02:23:42] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowl69069040> Who is actually doing PMTU discovery?
[02:24:00] <JeffH> oh path mtu discovery
[02:25:41] <Erik Nygren_8783> getting PMTUD working in QUIC is going to be important eventually.  (which seems to end up as do a mixture of MSS negotiation which can be clamped by middle boxes, ICMP(v6) PTB signals, and probing when both of those fail.)
[02:25:48] <Craig T> kadukoafs: I have a few use cases...
[02:26:15] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowl69069040> Craig T: existing or prospective?
[02:26:45] aaron has set the subject to: Martin - Endian issue
[02:27:00] <Craig T> existing...gets around a few hung connection corner cases with async paths of varying mtu
[02:27:37] <Craig T> definitely not 'common' use cases
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[02:27:38] <ted.h> Also used for cases where you have a known tunnel (like 3gpp tunnels)
[02:28:20] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowl69069040> (The pmtu discovery code in openafs was hilariously broken for a long
time; IIRC we only noticed while doing code review of some
refactoring)
[02:29:00] <whatdafuq> mic: is QUIC supposed to work on a big endian machine or should it just fail? Assuming work then there needs to be conversion routines and that being the case why not just follow the convention.
[02:29:38] <hildjj> because on all* of the machines that people actually use, that routine is a no-op
[02:29:46] <hildjj> (in LE)
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[02:31:15] <hildjj> We should call LE worknet byte order.
[02:32:14] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowl69069040> I'm still waiting for someone to get up and propose middle-endian,
just to make everyone sad.
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[02:32:21] <whatdafuq> mic: given the DKG and EKR stuff you can call me WTF. OK?
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[02:32:37] <Brian Trammell> Since it'll fail on big-endian machines, it should fallback to a little-endian machine.
[02:32:39] <Lucas Pardue> WDF surely?
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[02:32:51] <whatdafuq> that'll work too.
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[02:32:56] <hildjj> or you could choose to prioritize collaboration over being a troll.
[02:33:12] <whatdafuq> byte me
[02:33:24] <m h> hummmmm
[02:33:24] <Dan Harkins> hummmmm
[02:33:27] <Lucas Pardue> hummmmm
[02:33:28] <Erik Nygren_8783> hummmmm
[02:33:31] <m h> hummmmm
[02:33:32] <m h> hummmmm
[02:33:32] <whatdafuq> hummm
[02:33:34] <Simon Pietro Romano> hummmmm
[02:33:42] <Praveen Balasubramanian> hummmm
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[02:34:20] <whatdafuq> @hildjj, byte me in network order!
[02:34:29] aaron has set the subject to: Martin - Two Identifiers
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[02:36:09] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowl69069040> There is a nybble joke waiting to be made, but it will not be made by
me.
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[02:36:47] <whatdafuq> "make the internet great again"…
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[02:38:44] <bortzmeyer> whatdafuq: "make the Internet great-endian again" ?
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[02:44:22] <Erik Nygren_8783> Haven't fully thought through it, but we presumably want to be able to reuse TLS session tickets with an "h2" or "http/1.1" alpn as QUIC (including in 0RTT mode).  Does this make this problem worse?
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[02:46:46] <ted.h> So what happens when you want to use ALPN for two different applications should use something other than quic?
[02:46:57] <ted.h> Ah, sorry, he just got to that.
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