IETF
QUIC
quic@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, June 6, 2017< ^ >
Matthew Ford has set the subject to: 'QUIC IETF98 WG Meeting 20170330'
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[07:27:58] <Melinda> Hi, Mark - are you there?
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[07:32:30] <Roni Even> is there a jabber scribe?
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[07:37:24] <Ted.h> Minutes will be typed into https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Vm7vqMPxlCEuPnbrzIeE4Div9l3H1-rYxQqGX6A7MiI/edit?usp=sharing; should not require a login.
[07:37:33] <Melinda> Ted, is there audio?
[07:37:58] <Ted.h> We're still in set up mode.
[07:38:28] <Ted.h> Logging into webex now.
[07:38:38] <Melinda> Thanks - might want to give folks a heads-up
[07:38:59] <Daniel> we miss listening to all the chatter!
[07:39:22] <Ted.h> Ekr is walking through local logistics now (loos etc.) so not interesting yet.
[07:39:46] <mnot> OK, remote folks should now have video and audio. Please tell me if you have problems.
[07:40:02] <Roni Even> no slides
[07:40:15] <Melinda> video, no audio
[07:41:02] <gorryf> Video+low audio here -- gorry
[07:41:23] <Roni Even> i have audio but not understandable
[07:41:28] <Roni Even> too low
[07:41:35] Sean Turner joins the room
[07:41:37] <Ted.h> Reflected to room; working on it.
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[07:42:22] <spencerdawkins> I'm also video with no audio.
[07:42:33] <Roni Even> no audio now
[07:43:05] <mnot> now?
[07:43:10] <gorryf> no
[07:43:18] <Roni Even> speaker should joing the confernce and unmute
[07:43:36] <Roni Even> yes
[07:43:36] <gorryf> yes
[07:44:04] <mnot> can you hear patrick and jana?
[07:44:10] <Melinda> No.
[07:44:15] <Roni Even> no
[07:44:27] <Roni Even> because they are not in the conference
[07:44:50] <Roni Even> there is no microphone to the conference
[07:45:18] <Roni Even> not good
[07:45:45] <spencerdawkins> Mark, I mentioned earlier that I got a "start video" button from the HTML5 app, but nothing about audio. I haven't seen that before.
[07:45:49] <Roni Even> you can also joing the webex conference
[07:45:51] Sean Turner joins the room
[07:46:12] <Roni Even> at least the presnters
[07:46:15] <Melinda> I don't have an audio button, either, for whatever that's worth.  I'm using the HTML5 interface
[07:46:19] <mnot> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Vm7vqMPxlCEuPnbrzIeE4Div9l3H1-rYxQqGX6A7MiI/edit?usp=sharing
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[07:52:06] <Roni Even> there is strong echo
[07:52:20] <Melinda> I've still got no audio
[07:53:08] <gorryf> -> Melinda, I have audio here .. maybe your problem
[07:53:22] <Roni Even> I have audio too
[07:53:28] <Melinda> I've got audio from other applications.
[07:53:37] <Daniel> No audio for me
[07:53:56] <Melinda> I'm switching to the desktop app, see if that helps
[07:53:58] <Sean Turner> Might have flaked are we using etherpad for the notes?
[07:54:08] <Ted.h> Google docs for notes.
[07:54:14] <Sean Turner> ack
[07:55:06] <Melinda> Switching to the desktop app fixed it.
[07:55:09] <Sean Turner> and look if I had scrolled up ...
[07:55:15] <Daniel> ah sound using the app, yes
[07:55:40] <cabo> Stupid question: Where do I get the audio?
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[07:56:06] <Daniel> cabo: the webex meeting, we but not the web version of it
[07:56:18] <Daniel> s/we//
[07:57:10] <cabo> daniel: Thanks.  I’m missing those webex coordinates.
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[07:59:21] <Sean Turner> @cabo did you register?  I think the WebEx details only got sent to those.  I'm hear and can't really find the details either
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[08:00:34] <cabo> Sean: Daniel just sent the pointer.  Thanks.
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[08:04:56] <Sean Turner> @daniel thanks!
[08:05:08] <spencerdawkins> Joining using the app worked.
[08:06:01] <mnot> Can folks hear Martin?
[08:06:07] <Melinda> yes
[08:06:09] <cabo> Yes
[08:06:10] <mnot> great.
[08:07:33] <spencerdawkins> Mark, the volume level is low for me (unless someone cleared their throat).
[08:07:58] <Charles Krasic> I'm in the room, and I can barely hear the speakers
[08:08:32] <mnot> any better?
[08:08:34] <spencerdawkins> that doesn't sound (sic) good ...
[08:08:53] <mnot> the room is very acoustically challenged.
[08:08:57] <cabo> High reverb, but that is to be expected from a single mike
[08:09:01] <spencerdawkins> I can tell that it was Martin speaking, but pretty quiet.
[08:09:13] <mnot> It’s a boundary mic. I have a second, will attempt to set up during lunch.
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[08:09:17] <cabo> Volume is fine for me
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[08:11:19] <spencerdawkins> volume is impressively garbled for me.
[08:11:52] <Melinda> It's difficult to hear Christian (although I can hear that it is Christian)
[08:12:00] <Melinda> In general, commenters are difficult to hear.
[08:12:16] <Daniel> I have
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[08:13:22] <Roni Even> you can watch the minutes in google doc. Ted is doing great work
[08:14:12] <gryning> Melinda: central mic, echo, it's a hard environment. If anyone wants any clarification, ask here and I'll do my best to relay
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[08:14:25] <Melinda> Thanks!
[08:14:51] <craigt> ...but yes...Ted is on good form in the gdoc
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[08:37:59] <Daniel> remotees can can hear you fine
[08:38:08] <Melinda> +1
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[08:40:38] <Daniel> haha
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[08:45:28] <ekr> Note that it’s actually fine if you only configure P256 or X25519
[08:45:55] <ekr> You only need HRR if |supported_curves | > |key_shares|
[08:46:56] <ekr> lars: NSS should do what you want.
[08:46:56] ihlar leaves the room
[08:47:00] <ekr> or will very soon
[08:47:57] <Brian Trammell> oh but that create new issue button is soooooo shiny
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[08:51:55] <Melinda> I have to say that the minutes are beastly wonderful.  Huge thanks to Ted and other folks typing those in and editing.
[08:53:12] <Daniel> agreed!
[08:53:15] <Ted.h> Jana is sending the slides to list as well.
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[08:55:29] <Sean Turner> @lars can you upload the slides to the gh repo?  I tried but am not allowed
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[09:07:11] <ranjeeth> Ted.h: speaker is victor lubachev
[09:07:43] <Ted.h> Fixed, thanks.
[09:12:13] <ranjeeth> Ted.h: my bad, igor lubashev .. sorry :(
[09:12:54] <ranjeeth> corrected
[09:19:05] <ekr> I do want to mention that there is a way to do this inside QUIC as well
[09:19:35] <mnot> Remote folks: tell me if Lars’ typing is too loud and I’ll rap him on the knuckles :)
[09:19:44] <ekr> You might as well just rap
[09:19:58] <ekr> I mean why ot
[09:20:29] <Daniel> I can't hear his typing
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[09:20:37] <mnot> he stopped :)
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[09:20:54] <Daniel> with red knuckles? B)
[09:21:04] craigt guesses it's a new style apple keyboard, i have that trouble with mine
[09:21:23] <mnot> it is. My wife really likes hers, which surprised me a bit
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[09:53:39] <spencerdawkins> could someone remind me how long this break will be?
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[09:53:50] <Ted.h> It will end in 67 minutes
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[09:54:16] <spencerdawkins> thanks!
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[11:10:25] <Daniel> sound!
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[11:13:04] <gryning> asked mnot to unmute
[11:13:10] <mnot> it isn’t unmuted
[11:13:13] <mnot> muted, rather
[11:13:16] <gryning> ah :/
[11:13:21] <Martin Thomson> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Vm7vqMPxlCEuPnbrzIeE4Div9l3H1-rYxQqGX6A7MiI/edit#
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[11:13:31] <gryning> Daniel: still can't hear?
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[11:13:38] <Daniel> nono, I can hear fine
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[11:13:48] <gryning> aha, ok
[11:13:48] <Daniel> I tried to confirm that there was sound
[11:15:04] <Roni> we cannot hear
[11:15:56] <Daniel> Roni, no? I have sound
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[11:17:25] <Roni> It will be good if for tomorrow there could be some Microphoe for the speaker. currently I hear only background noise
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[11:29:11] <Ted.h> this seems to imply a second question: would we ever want to change the QUIC magic number?  If yes, then it requires us to change the integrity protection scheme.  If not, not a drama.
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[11:49:47] <Lars Eggert> since we're talking about invariants: https://eggert.org/papers/fdna06-ahlgren.pdf
[11:49:48] <Lars Eggert> :-)
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[12:14:46] <Martin Thomson> Lars Eggert: that isn't entirely true, because the versions that the server supports are advertised in two places and keeping those consistent is hard
[12:15:27] <Martin Thomson> the suggestion that you had there is good though: you can start to support version 2 across the cluster before you advertise it
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[12:21:15] <Martin Thomson> igor's assertion is that routing on CCID is (or could be) entirely random
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[12:33:19] <Ted.h> @Martin I think it is closer to say that the rate of change in middle box CCID state could mean the server associated with a CCID could change within an RTT.  
[12:34:57] <Martin Thomson> Ted.h: Yes, that might be a better formulation.
[12:36:21] <quic@jabber.ietf.org> I am starting to have a bad attitude about this discussion
[12:37:05] quic@jabber.ietf.org is now known as Christian Huitema
[12:37:44] <Martin Thomson> Christian Huitema: Oh, I'm well past that
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[12:38:30] <Martin Thomson> Lars Eggert: you can, but you have to use Alt-Svc
[12:38:43] <Martin Thomson> referring to A-B testing in combination with Ted's design
[12:38:45] <Ted.h> @Martin You don't get to that until all this is done, though.
[12:38:56] <Ted.h> So the AB testing is post-handshake.
[12:39:11] <Christian Huitema> How do we define a new version that does not use TLS?
[12:40:17] <Martin Thomson> Ted.h: my suggestion was that you do that when bootstrapping *from* h2/h1
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[12:55:45] <lucaspardue> when the time comes, what do we use to identify the an implementation draft 1 endpoint? using http methods seems incorrect (since http is out of scope) so is simply IP and port number enough?
[12:56:12] <mnot> probably
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[13:35:22] <Brian Trammell> yeah because if some fragmentation is good, more fragmentation is better...?
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[13:37:40] <gryning> for the jabber room; we heard thunder just after Magnus spoke
[13:38:56] <Brian Trammell> (I should be clear about my what-Lars-said: I personally think that Martin's proposal is good and we should just do it. But I do want to be clear that we're re-implementing the endpooint part of PLPMTUD in the transport parameters.)
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[13:42:21] <Martin Thomson> dropping the packet does work, but it creates a spurious congestion signal
[13:42:34] <Brian Trammell> nod
[13:43:42] <Brian Trammell> (I'm happy with Martin's suggestion. Some text explaining the rationale in the document would be nice.)
[13:48:51] <Christian Huitema> Here is corresponding text in RFC 6891 (EDNS): A requestor MAY choose to implement a fallback to smaller advertised sizes to work around firewall or other network limitations.  A requestor SHOULD choose to use a fallback mechanism that begins with a large size, such as 4096.  If that fails, a fallback around the range of 1280-1410 bytes SHOULD be tried, as it has a reasonable chance to fit within a single Ethernet frame.  Failing that, a requestor MAY choose a 512-byte packet, which with large answers may cause a TCP retry.
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[13:52:54] <Martin Thomson> Brian: Something along the lines of "This parameter is an optimization.  An endpoint could discard packets that are larger than what it is willing to accept and rely on path MTU discovery ({{section-reference-for-that}}), but this parameter avoids the waste and spurious loss signal that result from using discards to limit packet size."
[13:53:49] <Christian Huitema> Path MTU will not drop lower than 1280, will it?
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[13:54:52] <gryning> I think some of the early quic research pappers have google stats on the number of <1280 connections for their platform
[13:54:59] <gryning> I recall a very low number
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[13:56:52] <gorryf> Can we make comments remotely via jabber -or is this too hard?
[13:57:42] <mnot> sure
[13:59:42] <gorryf> It seems like it could be done. However: It seems that the topic of PMTUD for UDP is a topic that is much more general than QUIC and maybe there are a number of issues here, including probing, buffering, etc
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[14:34:06] <Brian Trammell> let's reserve 81. UTF8 capital Q is 81, which is free in the 7983 demus space.
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[14:36:09] <Martin Thomson> OK, you reserve Q and Q means that the next byte is the start of a QUIC frame.  Now you have a way of infinitely adding Q octets and having it appear as a real QUIC packet.  What do the other protocols do?  Use the codepoints that they use now, pick their own special octet?
[14:36:32] <Brian Trammell> current protocols do what they do now
[14:36:44] <Brian Trammell> future protocols reserve another codepoint
[14:36:53] <Brian Trammell> (Or we design a real framing layer)
[14:37:12] <Martin Thomson> so the suggestion is basically a design for multiplexing, in direct contradiction to what I see on the slide
[14:37:39] <Brian Trammell> as soon as we *try* to design a wire image that fits into this demux space, we are doing a design for multiplexing
[14:37:46] <Brian Trammell> then the only question is how serious are we about it
[14:39:01] <Ted.h> If we guess that the things with which QUIC will be multiplexed are in the current demux space, then having only one method for demux is a win.  So "serious" may equal fit into the current world.  Where I'd normally say "serious" would be "better than this hack"....
[14:39:08] <ekr> I think we should just add a two byte prefix
[14:39:10] <ekr> and call it “port”
[14:39:28] <mnot> +1 EKR
[14:39:32] <Ted.h> @ekr  It's a tuple, midges.
[14:39:45] <ekr> And then call all the ones that are reserved “system ports”
[14:39:55] <ekr> @hardie: 32 + 16 > 128
[14:39:56] <Mirja Kuehlewind> btw does anybody know what this protocol field in IP is used for?
[14:40:08] <Daniel> =)
[14:40:09] <mnot> ignore it, it’s fixed to 443, apparently
[14:40:17] <Brian Trammell> 1 = icmp, 6 = tcp, 17 = udp, all other values = please drop this packet
[14:40:38] <gorryf> And for Ipv6?
[14:40:47] <Brian Trammell> ipv what now?
[14:41:42] <Martin Thomson> never heard of it
[14:41:48] <mnot> It looks like MT is experiencing about the same jet lag as I am.
[14:41:58] <Mirja Kuehlewind> can we just obsolete udp?
[14:42:00] <Martin Thomson> no, it's just that I ran out of fucks to give
[14:42:08] <Mirja Kuehlewind> is not a transport protocol anyway...
[14:42:15] <Martin Thomson> I'd like to talk about greasing now
[14:42:20] <Martin Thomson> and then find something to drink
[14:42:20] <gorryf> I think it may be :-)
[14:47:47] <gryning> "apparently there's "an incident" near/at notre dame which police are telling people to keep away from - JFYI" - just recieved
[14:48:16] <gryning> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40178183
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[14:50:25] <mnot> I lived in some of the rougher parts of Baltimore for several years; if there was a news alert every time people heard gunshots, there wouldn’t be enough channels on the TV to carry them.
[14:51:06] <Mirja Kuehlewind> not everybody in europe has a gin at home though
[14:51:09] <Mirja Kuehlewind> gun
[14:51:29] <mnot> having a gun is generally a very bad idea when lots of other people have guns. YMMV.
[14:51:39] <Brian Trammell> not everyone in europe has gin at home, either.
[14:51:48] <mnot> I have a dream
[14:51:49] <Brian Trammell> that's mainly a british thing.
[14:51:50] <Mirja Kuehlewind> not?
[14:52:04] <mnot> explicitly no ‘not’ in that statement
[14:52:25] <Martin Thomson> mmmmm. ginshots
[14:52:57] <Mirja Kuehlewind> my news channel said a policeman shot someone
[14:53:15] <Mirja Kuehlewind> (i guess in response to shots)
[14:53:27] <gryning> there are newschannels other than the bbc?
[14:53:28] <mnot> *nod* Someone had a gun, so they got shot.
[14:53:36] gryning is now known as craigt
[14:54:03] <mnot> nothing on CNN
[14:54:45] <mnot> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/06/paris-police-shoot-man-who-attacked-officer-outside-notre-dame-cathedral
[14:55:19] <mnot> Much more information:
[14:55:19] <mnot> https://www.thelocal.fr/20170606/paris-policeman-opens-fire-after-man-attacks-him-at-notre-dame-cathedral
[14:56:56] <lucaspardue> clearly inspired by the HTTP workshop logo
[14:59:27] <mnot> too soon
[15:00:39] <Martin Thomson> Question: would we fix this scheme across QUIC versions?
[15:01:09] <Ted.h> Why would we fix greasing schemes?
[15:03:12] <Martin Thomson> well, Jana just suggested that a middlebox could use what is in the packet alone to determine this, but I guess that it could feed version into the hopper
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