IETF
QUIC
quic@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, July 20, 2017< ^ >
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Room Configuration
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[13:48:17] <ted.h> Did we get an etherpad location?
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[13:49:33] <Philipp S. Tiesel> Etherpad is at https://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-99-quic?useMonospaceFont=true
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[13:50:37] <Brian Trammell> emergency backup google doc at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MvBZVReAhItkDydIZdj4pFti5Cl4MJRsSdFw3aF-sy4/edit
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[13:51:25] <ted.h> It's also available as a temporary tattoo…just sayin'.
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[13:53:23] <Lars Eggert> and if i miss something, someone else in the room please step up
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[13:56:58] <lucaspardue> what was the NGINX+ngtcp2 entry in server column?
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[13:59:30] <Brian Trammell> etherpad died
[13:59:34] <Brian Trammell> in the gdoc now
[13:59:41] <Martin Duke> I am hear and ready to talk about the second draft
[13:59:45] <Martin Duke> here
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[14:00:07] <Lars Eggert> go to mkie, martin?
[14:00:08] <Lars Eggert> mike
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[14:09:52] <Martin Thomson> to ekr's point, locking down the wire image would be ossifying the protocol before it is done
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[14:12:18] <Michael Bishop> Note that static HPACK is now in PR#692.
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[14:13:22] <ted.h> I think H2 on a single stream makes sense.
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[14:13:51] <lucaspardue> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/692
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[14:14:28] <jch> I missed this bit... could somebody please explain what "locking down the unencrypted wire image" means exactly?
[14:14:42] <ekr> I think this means we should prioritize questions that impact the wire format for interim
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[14:15:09] <ekr> The two I am aware of are: (1) Should we encrypt sequence numbers (2) should we replace flag-controlled integers with variable-length integers
[14:15:17] <Martin Duke> i just wanted to respond to ekr briefly
[14:15:35] <jch> Ah, I see.  Thanks.
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[14:16:17] <Brad Lassey> I think locking down could be an aspirational goal, but shouldn't be  treated as a freeze
[14:16:41] <Martin Thomson> as ekr said, we can't commit just yet to the unencrypted bits
[14:17:11] <Martin Thomson> that would mean that we would have to decide all the "signals to middleboxes" questions before we could start implementing
[14:17:18] <jch> Are middleboxes already a serious concern, at this relatively early stage?
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[14:17:38] <Martin Thomson> jch: this is not the problem, it is that we would have to reach consensus about all the signals we intend to send to those guys
[14:17:48] <jch> Like?
[14:17:51] <Martin Thomson> for instance, we would have to resolve whether we wanted a packet number echo
[14:17:54] <Martin Thomson> encrypted packet number
[14:17:59] <Erik Nygren> mic:  A number of the "should not include" items on the list are ones we likely need to address before we lock down the unencrypted wire image.  (For example, in-case we want to support an equivalent to TCP's MSS-clamping equivalent for PMTUD negotiation and discovery.)
[14:18:02] <Martin Thomson> connection ID encryption
[14:18:12] <Martin Duke> at this point I'm in line to basically wrap things up at the end
[14:18:20] <Erik Nygren> (Unless that was mentioned already.  Having meetecho issues.)
[14:18:21] <Lars Eggert> erik, we'll get you in a minute
[14:18:23] <ted.h> @Erik we can see you in queue; did you want to have this reflected right now.
[14:18:24] <Martin Thomson> CHAIRS: close the line
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[14:18:51] <Meetecho> Erik Nygren: what's wrong? we see you in the virtual queue
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[14:19:24] <Brad Lassey> should we do HQ plus something else?
[14:19:26] <jch> Jabber scribe: it would be helpful if we could have the names of the people taking the mic.
[14:19:30] <Erik Nygren> I can also say from the remote queue when we get there.  I think just connectivity issues on my end.  (had to switch clients)
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[14:19:44] <ted.h> That's ekr. Jana is next.
[14:20:16] <ted.h> Current queue after Jana:  Ian, Kazuo, Erik, Martin Duke.
[14:20:20] <Marten Seemann> So the idea is that Google would already use the IETF wire format in gQUIC very soon, and then change the rest of their implementation to IETF QUIC, right?
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[14:21:29] <Victor Vasiliev> mic: I would go with a simple application like echo, mostly because I share ekr's concerns about implementations being HTTP-specific.
[14:21:44] <ted.h> @Lars:  see Victor's comment.
[14:21:54] <Lars Eggert> have it
[14:22:29] <jch> IRC over QUIC?
[14:22:35] <Martin Thomson> Victor Vasiliev: I don't think that will make things less specific, because echo won't exercise enough of the protocol
[14:22:49] <Martin Thomson> blow out on the mic Erik Nygren
[14:22:58] <Victor Vasiliev> Are you thinking about flow control specifically?
[14:23:02] <ted.h> gopher over QUIC. https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1436.txt
[14:23:24] <Martin Thomson> Victor Vasiliev: everything really
[14:23:43] <jch> ted.h: I seem to remember that Gopher is a simple request-response algorithm.  IRC has asynchronous things, I believe.
[14:24:06] <Martin Thomson> a toy application doesn't help with the real issues; only a real usage will do that; only broad usage will uncover all the issues, but we don't have time for either of those
[14:24:12] jch suggest Netconf over QUIC ;-)
[14:24:14] <Erik Nygren> Sorry, will not eat this mic.
[14:24:20] <ted.h> @jch gopher is very simple; it's more complicated than echo, but basically trivial to implement.
[14:24:27] <Martin Thomson> HTTP/0.9 over streams
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[14:24:54] <ted.h> NB:  That was an individual, not as IAB Chair.
[14:24:57] <Philipp S. Tiesel> @Martin Thomson I also wanted to suggest this
[14:25:17] <Martin Thomson> ted.h: I think that the observation was that you are an IAB chair as well as an individual
[14:25:24] <ted.h> The individual is allowed to snark in chatrooms.  The chair has to keep his feet on the floor.
[14:25:26] <Philipp S. Tiesel> Probably two simple applications that have different traffic pattern
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[14:26:32] <Martin Thomson> I think we should caution Ian about the use of the word "monitoring" in this context
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[14:36:04] <ekr> Point of order, the bits need to be called +1/2 and -1/2
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[14:37:17] <Victor Vasiliev> Also, those are not middleboxes
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[14:38:11] <Victor Vasiliev> Not all of them, at least
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[14:39:04] <jch> ekr: please use imaginary bit values.
[14:39:14] <ekr> @jch: well, then they can’t be called “spin”
[14:39:36] <jch> ekr, I feel stupid for having missed the joke.
[14:40:17] <ekr> obviously, if we had 3 spin values, then we could call them 1, 0, -1
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[14:41:04] <ekr> Oops, I mean 0, 1, 2…
[14:41:19] <ekr> But you could have as many packets on the wire as you wanted
[14:41:30] <Marten Seemann> How would you "fix the signal upon reordering"?
[14:41:37] <jch> ekr, I think you just found a way to solve the IPv4 exhaustion problem... use 32-trit addresses, they fit in the IPv4 header.
[14:42:15] <Marten Seemann> Ian just explained it.
[14:42:16] <Lars Eggert> see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-terrell-math-ipaddr-ipv4-01
[14:42:49] <Lars Eggert> one of my favorite IDs of all time
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[14:45:03] <Lars Eggert> the other draft-terrells are gold, too
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[14:47:50] <Martin Duke> i'm raising my hand
[14:47:59] <Martin Duke> to Ian's question
[14:48:25] <Lars Eggert> ack
[14:48:40] <Lars Eggert> @martin but you are in the line for something else, too, right?
[14:49:12] <Martin Thomson> my understanding is that this would be required
[14:50:06] <Martin Duke> yes, all my needs have been met now
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[14:53:46] <Martin Thomson> the lack of ability to verify (on the path) is a design feature we want to retain
[14:54:45] <Victor Vasiliev> I should be following the discussion in the room, and now I'm just stuck reading draft-terrell-*
[14:55:01] <Martin Thomson> an important point here is that the number of packets that carry this signal is reduced to one packet per round trip
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[14:56:35] <Martin Thomson> that was the point that Colin just made
[14:56:37] <ekr> Colin’s argument here is very unpersuasive to me. TCP has horrific privacy properties.
[14:56:55] <Martin Thomson> that part I thoroughly disagree with
[14:57:11] <ekr> And the reason we don’t have evidence of problems with TCP because of *this* bit is because there are much more serious leaks
[14:57:47] <ekr> And we have lots of evidence of information leaks from the behavior TCP leaks
[14:57:51] <Martin Thomson> that might be true and it's hard to see what the effects of this would be on a protocol
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[15:02:02] <Victor Vasiliev> Also, you can get the RTTs in both direction by sending pings in both directions, since you have the IP addresses
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[15:05:59] <Martin Duke> Pings may end up in different queues than UDP 443
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[15:06:32] <Spencer Dawkins> I asked EKR if there were citations he could post to help the rest of us understand. If other people could suggest pointers, I know I'D read 'em ...
[15:07:13] <Spencer Dawkins> And, of course, I meant "send to the mailing list"
[15:08:21] <Victor Vasiliev> ...cannot geolocation be done using IP addresses?
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[15:11:02] <ted.h> For dkg's point on location, this is a a real concern, but there is a second piece of information required: the RTT between the middlebox and one endpoint.  With that, you can isolate the portion of the RTT that circumscribes the location.  I do believe, however, that the middlebox has much clearer geolocation already present (the 5 tuple).  I am not sure (and will think of how to gather data) on whether further exposure is inherent here.
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[15:18:46] <dkg> does someone have a pointer to the paper that Andrew referenced?
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[15:19:31] <dkg> Victor Vasiliev: not every endpoint responds to ping
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[15:22:07] <Simone Ferlin> could then notetaker here note who is at the mic?
[15:22:14] <ekr> philip tiesel
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[15:22:18] <Lars Eggert> philip tiesel
[15:22:22] <Simone Ferlin> thanks
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[15:25:19] <Simone Ferlin> hands up :)
[15:25:37] <Marten Seemann> raising my hand
[15:25:38] <Simone Ferlin> hand!
[15:25:47] <Martin Duke> my hand is up, to spencer's q
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[15:26:49] <Martin Thomson> I disagree with Spencer on this point - if he is talking about the bit
[15:27:01] <ekr> This is like plus-lite-lite
[15:27:10] <Martin Thomson> minus
[15:27:48] <lucaspardue> surPLUS
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[15:29:12] <Simone Ferlin> I think it's getting maybe hardto follow, because of the amount of things being changed and going on on the list. It's massive sometimes, hard to follow.
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[15:29:22] <Martin Duke> We can probably kill all options besides 1 and 3a
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[15:30:37] <Martin Duke> can we hum to eliminate everything besides 1 and 3a
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[15:31:16] <Lars Eggert> martin: mark and me are discussing
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[15:44:24] <Marten Seemann> who's at the mic?
[15:44:27] <ted.h> dkg
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[15:46:29] <Marten Seemann> thanks
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[15:49:48] <Martin Duke> did we eliminate 2 and 3?
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[15:50:35] <dragana> no decision yet
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[15:51:48] <Martin Thomson> The working group cannot reject a proposal on the basis of privacy or security without a concrete attack.  yes/no
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