IETF
QUIC
quic@jabber.ietf.org
Monday, March 19, 2018< ^ >
Sean Turner has set the subject to: QUIC Interim
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[13:33:11] <Sean Turner> Minutes: http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-101-quic?useMonospaceFont=true
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[13:38:05] kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl has set the subject to: QUIC Interim
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[13:44:28] <Adam Roach> What, not "qsmoosh"?
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[13:48:27] <Thom Peterson> I am unable to find the current slides on the agenda page of datatracker. Is that intentional or should they be there?
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[13:49:46] <ted.h> @Thom https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-quic-editors-update-00.pdf
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[13:50:15] <Thom Peterson> Thanks ted.h
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[13:54:48] <Adam Roach> ted.cpp: No such file or directory
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[14:18:34] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I think ted.h can be summarized as "let's put in another abstraction
layer"
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[14:21:25] <ted.h> Well, sort-of?  I think it's more "you have created another stream type; let's consider whether there are other uses for that stream type".  Martin's point that this stream type is always unencrypted would argue against ever re-using it, but that doesn't seem to be a core property here.
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[14:34:16] <Lars Eggert> victor, i got you in the queue after christian h
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[14:36:36] <brian@trammell.ch> clarifying point: i quite like ian's idea of bending dtls to look like quic
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[14:39:20] <Martin Duke> +1 to Bishop's second point. I'm not sure what the difference is between this and Stream 0
[14:42:15] <Jonathan Lennox> This feels surprisingly similar to WebRTC Datachannels's SCTP-over-DTLS
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[14:44:29] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I think the DTLS optimizations were heavily focused on DTLS's needs and
did not consider QUIC
[14:44:56] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> which is not to say that it won't necessarily work for QUIC, but does
require further thought/investigation
[14:45:19] <brian@trammell.ch> yeah it's pretty clear that this would mean more work on DTLS1.3
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[14:46:19] <Victor Vasiliev> Every time I looked at DTLS 1.3, EKR made it more and more like QUIC
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[14:46:33] <brian@trammell.ch> it's moving in the right direction
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[14:46:44] <brian@trammell.ch> and yeah, the new conn-id thing is pretty much dtls conn-id
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[14:47:19] <Lars Eggert> victor, you are up next (after christian)
[14:47:29] <Victor Vasiliev> *nods*
[14:47:29] <nygren > Does this effectively make DTLS 1.3 converge into a "QTLS"?  (ie, a converged DTLS and bottom-layer of QUIC?).
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[14:47:49] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Kind-of, and that's not necessarily wrong...
[14:48:14] <Mirja Kuehlewind> I guess as Ekr is the editor of DTLS1.3, he can just make it completely look like QUIC and we are done :-)
[14:48:36] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> "provided there is WG consensus"
[14:49:19] <nygren > (I wasn't implying it is wrong.  It has potential pros and cons.  Although if DTLS 1.3 diverges too far from DTLS 1.2 it might be a good thing but might make it harder for people to move over and I could see some TLS wg folks maybe being sad about this.)
[14:49:24] <brian@trammell.ch> as to the difference between" crypto streams" and "stream 0": separating the stream types means you have separate flow control state, you can never mix up ack ranges, etc, etc.
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[14:49:46] <brian@trammell.ch> it's largely a semantic change, but that semantic change makes it much easier not to get stuff wrong by default
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[14:49:59] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> brian +1
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[14:50:35] <nygren > +1  (ie, namespacing them does seem safer due to the differences)
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[14:51:29] <lucaspardue> what is the expectation for the layer that comes underneath QUIC packets now, and how would that change if we were to use DTLS records in the future ;)
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[14:59:34] <Martin Duke> Ultimately, we all started out implementing stream 0 as "just another stream" but with a few special cases...
[14:59:45] <brian@trammell.ch> yep
[14:59:57] <Martin Duke> ...  as those special cases have built up, it's no longer tenable...
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[15:00:00] <brian@trammell.ch> the boiling frog problem
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[15:00:50] <Martin Duke> ... so really, an equally suffiicient approach is to just rewrite the code to divert stream 0 stuff into wholly separate processing.
[15:01:08] <Martin Duke> maybe this framework encourages this, but its' not a fundamental change
[15:01:14] <Martin Duke> unless the PR proves me wrong
[15:01:40] <Mirja Kuehlewind> +1 to Tommy
[15:01:55] <ted.h> @Martin  I think treating it as a different beast is a clear outcome.  But making both stream 0 and all other stream change into different beasts by adopting DTLS isn't the simplest thing we can do.
[15:01:57] <Victor Vasiliev> QUIC-DTLS convergence has been a theme
[15:02:00] <Mirja Kuehlewind> I think it's actually nice that TLS is not part of the invariants
[15:02:01] <ted.h> That accomplishes that.
[15:02:23] <Mirja Kuehlewind> that means we could actually exchange the whole crypto engine if figure out we need to in a future version
[15:02:44] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Yes
[15:02:55] <brian@trammell.ch> @martin diverting stream zero resets the complexity by reducing the set of special case points, but it doesn't generalize the case
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[15:04:33] <brian@trammell.ch> (can we call these cleartext streams and cleartext acks, please? that's what they are)
[15:04:45] <ted.h> Cleams and clacks?
[15:05:11] <ted.h> Or "teams and tacks" maybe?
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[15:06:18] <lucaspardue> pteams and ptacks would work too, a silent Pee
[15:08:15] <craigt> a new idiom is born
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[15:08:56] <Victor Vasiliev> I agree with Martin
[15:11:20] <craigt> The number of people interested in participation is clearly an indication of support for 'some' change
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[15:13:29] <Martin Duke> @Mirja if QUIC is on top of DTLS, then isn't switching out DTLS for something else just a matter of negotiation at that layer?
[15:14:25] <Mirja Kuehlewind> not if you need to put version negotiation into DTLS
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[15:16:11] <brian@trammell.ch> IMO the right (longer term) target here is QUIC->DTLS convergence. how the version negotiation gets us there should be a matter of engineering, but the implication of that as a target is that DTLS will get version negotiation.
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[15:16:44] <nygren > There's likely some reasonable balance.  Converging the DTLS and QUIC packet layer formats does seem like it will make it harder to change either in the future.  Keeping DTLS 1.3 and "QTLS" similar in concept but with separate packet formats seems potentially safer (ie, as otherwise if DTLS 1.4 wants to change packet format but QUIC doesn't we'll have the same problem again)
[15:17:51] <brian@trammell.ch> @nygren good point
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[15:19:04] <Mirja Kuehlewind> Maybe it makes actually sense to also separate the DTLS wire image from the DTLS machinery, which is basically the approach ekr showed in his backup slides where you have DTLS over quic (header)
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[15:20:20] <brian@trammell.ch> yep
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[15:22:09] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> +1
[15:24:08] <nygren > how does this handle routing ICMP PTB messages for PMTUD?   (or do you send both connection ids when unsure if the packets will fit?)
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[15:25:17] <nygren > (ie, for a load balancer to use the prefix in the ICMP PTB message to steer the echo'd packet to the right place, which is somewhat similar to the stateless reset but perhaps has more timeliness requirements.)
[15:25:28] <brian@trammell.ch> right
[15:25:43] <brian@trammell.ch> argh
[15:25:58] <brian@trammell.ch> is there an issue on that yet?
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