IETF
rpsreqs@jabber.ietf.org
Friday, 30 March 2012< ^ >
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[09:14:43] <mcr> i am designated jabber->mic relay.
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[09:17:16] <mcr> are you all remote?
[09:17:28] <Melinda> I am
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[09:17:59] <mcr> Paul is asking you for an audio test.
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[09:18:10] <SM> Waiting for Meetecho
[09:18:27] <SM> Audio fine
[09:18:27] <Meetecho audio rps> Meetecho audio is starting...
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[09:19:06] <mcr> center? side?
[09:19:24] <SM> I heard center, nothinhg from side
[09:19:57] <mcr> anything from side?
[09:20:05] <SM> I hear audio
[09:20:14] <mcr> what about side?
[09:20:22] <Melinda> I haven't really heard anything but Paul
[09:20:31] <pcl> paul said "testing from the side mic" at one point
[09:20:43] <pcl> so you would have heard something distinctly side-oriented
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[09:20:56] <mcr> I said side test too.
[09:21:06] <mcr> Paul wants to know if that mic works, if so, I will use it.
[09:21:30] <SM> Yes
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[09:22:02] <Alessandro Amirante> Meetecho audio is up and running...
[09:22:16] <Alessandro Amirante> Meetecho is at www.meetecho.com/ietf83/rpsreqs
[09:22:28] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 1: ??
[09:22:59] <Alessandro Amirante> If you use both Meetecho and a standalone jabber client, please use different nicknames
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[09:25:56] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 3: Current work
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[09:30:21] <Melinda> Well, yes.
[09:31:13] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 4: Requirements instead of technologies
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[09:33:00] <mcr> Q from me: is there someone here who has never been to a meeting?
[09:33:14] <SM> Lorenzo, nice, two cameras
[09:33:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> I'm in another room actually :)
[09:33:56] <Lorenzo Miniero> I'm following BFCPBIS
[09:33:57] <Simon Romano> :-) Lorenzo is not here...even tough he is everywhere!
[09:34:06] <Simon Romano> It's me palying with the mixing.
[09:34:41] Joe Hildebrand joins the room
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[09:37:39] Joe Hildebrand has set the subject to: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-genarea-rps-reqs-03
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[09:44:12] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 5: Tiered requirements for capabilities
[09:44:19] <mcr> any comments from remote?
[09:44:50] <SM> No
[09:46:22] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 6: Interactions with WG chairs
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[09:55:57] <Melinda> It's 2am in Alaska ..
[09:56:35] <barryleiba> Yeh, but Alaskans are tough.
[09:56:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> :)
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[10:04:28] <mcr> any comments from remote?
[10:06:48] <Melinda> Not yet!
[10:07:46] Ray Pelletier joins the room
[10:08:32] <Ray Pelletier> Henrik said tools are coming along
[10:09:37] <Ray Pelletier> Yes they are.  A reason for this rps exercise is to identify our needs and tell the vendor community what we need, give them a target, not to constrain ourselves to what is current or hope that the vendor can read our minds to what we need, want.
[10:10:27] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 7: Target audiences
[10:10:53] <Ray Pelletier> all slides should be numbered
[10:11:04] <Alessandro Amirante> +1
[10:11:17] <SM> Is that a coment to the mic, Ray? :-)
[10:11:28] <Ray Pelletier> smies
[10:13:17] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 8: Voice-to-room vs./and IM-to-mic
[10:15:06] <mcr> could someone in the room watch jabber for 3 minutes while I use the facilities....?
[10:15:20] <Karen O'Donoghue> I can
[10:15:45] <mcr> thank you. red shirt on the left/back?
[10:15:55] <mcr> many colour, really.
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[10:16:04] <Karen O'Donoghue> yes
[10:16:05] <barryleiba> Sure
[10:16:47] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 8: Voice-to-room vs./and IM-to-mic
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[10:20:48] <SM> Mic: I can tell that I come after Joe based on video
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[10:22:00] <barryleiba> Joel
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[10:25:18] <SM> Lost audio and video
[10:25:32] <YJS> I too lost audio
[10:25:53] <Melinda> Me too
[10:26:01] <SM> Simon, network issue or tools issue?
[10:26:10] <YJS> are they tearing the network down right now ?
[10:26:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> checking the mixer
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[10:26:21] <Lorenzo Miniero> will tell you asap
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[10:26:56] <YJS> other rooms have audio streaming
[10:27:10] <Simon Romano> It's the networkout there...
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[10:28:53] <SM> Ok, lost connect to Meetecho
[10:28:56] <Melinda> A bunch of people were just kicked by the jabber server
[10:29:06] <m&m> meetecho went away?
[10:29:14] Klensin joins the room
[10:29:15] <mcr> Melinda: did u get audio back yet?
[10:29:23] <Melinda> Meetecho audio rps left the room (This participant is kicked from the room because he sent an error presence: remote-server-not-found).
[10:29:27] <Melinda> Getting a bunch of those
[10:29:36] <Melinda> audio's back
[10:29:39] <SM> Meetecho giving a 503
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[10:29:54] <YJS> audio returned
[10:29:56] <m&m> the meetecho folks are looking into it
[10:30:11] <Melinda> 11 people were kicked
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[10:31:06] <Audio> We should be up again
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[10:31:53] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 9: Registration
[10:31:53] <SM> Meetecho back up
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[10:32:21] <Alessandro Amirante> yep...
[10:33:14] <Lorenzo Miniero> sorry about that...
[10:33:28] <SM> It's alright, best effort
[10:33:36] <Melinda> Who's that?
[10:33:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> :)
[10:33:59] <Melinda> Is that Michael?
[10:34:05] <SM> Mic: Who was speaking at the mic?
[10:34:05] <barryleiba> Da
[10:34:11] <Melinda> Thanks
[10:35:46] <Klensin> Mic: 2 comments: First, for a BOF on remote participation, speaker identification is going very poorly. Second, think about splitting the registration/identification question between "passive listening/watching" and "intend to make comments, type into Jabber, etc". I think the issue for the two groups are a lot different.
[10:38:25] <barryleiba> Q for the remote people: How important is it to have session slides posted significantly before the meeting, and if it's important, how early would you like them posted?
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[10:39:07] <Melinda> Before the session is fine with me
[10:39:34] <SM> Barry, as an individual, at least 48 hours before, as a chair, I missed the deadline
[10:40:02] <SM> Please note that Meetecho needs the slides if they provide remote services
[10:40:05] <Lorenzo Miniero> we demand drafts to be uploaded long in advance
[10:40:14] <mcr> barryleiba: if slides are in browser formats (HTML, PDF), and are linked to the agenda item, then it can be only 20s ahead of the presenter. if it's PPT(x), then it takes way too long and the UI is too poor. I need the PPT an hour ahead, so I can load it, and save it as PDF. (I've been remote 4 out of the last 6)
[10:40:14] <Lorenzo Miniero> I'm not saying it should be two weeks for slides as well
[10:40:19] <Lorenzo Miniero> but a few hours could help
[10:40:32] <Melinda> The draft requirement is to progress work.
[10:40:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> and quoting SM yes, there's that technical aspect as well: slides need to be piped into the RPS system as well
[10:40:43] <Klensin> @Barry: based on experience this week and with Prague, I'd _like_ to have them not later than the Friday before the meeting. If that isn't possible, I'd want to have most of it at least two days in advance with, if necessary, small incremental updates (with a diff summary) no later than the end of hte last session on the previous day. It also depends on
[10:40:57] <Lorenzo Miniero> changing them 1 minute before a meeting is going to cause issues and a poor remote attendee experience
[10:41:53] hildjj is now known as Klensin
[10:41:55] <barryleiba> T
[10:42:01] <Klensin > I am not John.
[10:42:07] Klensin is now known as hildjj
[10:42:08] <barryleiba> Merci à tous.
[10:43:09] <Klensin> whether the slides are posted in really convenient form, e.g., a single, sequenced, PDF file or whether, e.g., they are buried in a large "meeting materials" tarball that requires the remote participant decode, organize, and locally-format the material. Those who don't have PowerPoint handy probably feel the same way about PP decks as I do about complex HTML/CSS tarballs with multiple roots
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[10:43:20] <SM> Mic: Is jck.ietf@gmail.com adequate?
[10:43:50] <Lorenzo Miniero> talking about powerpoint, pptx slides look really *ugly* on my linux ;)
[10:44:04] <Lorenzo Miniero> and I've seen many in the materials page this week
[10:45:26] <mcr> +1
[10:46:24] <Klensin> @Lorenzo: yes, that is part of the point. Ability to render doesn't mean "works smootly and well". Independent of questions about whether the harder formats should be banned entirely, my answer to Barry's question is that I want them _lots_ earlier. To use your example, if were were motivate, you could probably find a friend with good PP capability and create something else if you had enogh time. It might be unreasonable to explect you to do that, it might not. But it is certainly unreasonable if the PP deci arrives less than 24 hours before the session.
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[10:47:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> absolutely agree...
[10:47:14] <Alessandro Amirante> +1
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[10:48:26] <Tobia Castaldi> +1
[10:50:11] <mcr> survey: are any of you on a limited bandwidth connection, or limited size screen (e.g. android phone on 2G in the woods?)
[10:50:34] <Melinda> Not me
[10:50:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> not at the moment
[10:50:48] <SM> Mic: To summary, the discussion is about transparency and rate limiting who are viewed as disruptive
[10:50:53] <SM> to summarize
[10:51:34] <SM> mcr, poor latency
[10:51:46] <Klensin> My two connections have felt limited bandwidth all week -- one due to a persistent DOS attack, the other because it is a pig. But both are broadband and I've got a good keyboard and large screen.
[10:51:58] <mcr> SM, so this is no longer relevant to discussion about telephone?
[10:52:11] <SM> Ok, kill it, mcr.
[10:53:46] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 10: Face-to-face interims without remote participation
[10:55:09] <Klensin> I think the phone question may turn out to be lots different for smaller or interim meetings than it is for remote IETF participation. Borrowing a chapter from a prior generation of teleconferencing, if I have to go somewhere to get a broadband connection during a week-long IETF meeting (even if "somewhere" isn't the meeting) that should be reasonably acceptable. Taking a design team, IESG, IAB, etc., meeting remotely may be a different problem. Iternims probably fall somewhere in between, but I'd like to see the question broken down into cases that are examined separately.
[10:55:37] <Klensin> (I thought Paul was cuttent off that thread; if he hasn't, please take to Mic)
[10:57:30] <mcr> Klensin... is this MIC?
[10:58:00] <mcr> I think we did cut that off.
[10:58:29] <Klensin> (no Mic needed) This is slightly OT, but I fear that saying "remote participation will be available" for a particular situation is going to start generating appeals if it doesn't work. That does interact with this effort because it drives the robustness requirement way up -- "best effort, maybe it will work" is not an answer or is equivalent to "no remote participation"
[10:58:56] <Klensin> Whomever is speaking is inaudiable.
[10:58:59] <mcr> @Klensin: I think that this was my point.
[10:59:27] <Klensin> @mcr: certainly we are on the same page at least.
[10:59:43] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 11: Standard compliance
[10:59:46] <mcr> but, thank you for stating it better than I did!
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[10:59:56] <Klensin> @mcr :-)
[11:00:41] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 12: Video
[11:01:29] <hildjj> I DON'T HAVE A FACE!
[11:01:30] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 13: Comments I have heard this week (1)
[11:01:59] <mcr> write your comments (MIC:) and I'll channel them as the time opens up. Note slide too please.
[11:02:01] <Klensin> (no Mic) when I'm in a meeting a 3AM in my timezone, you _really_ don't want to look at me :--)
[11:02:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> :D
[11:02:52] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 14: Comments I have heard this week (2)
[11:03:11] <mcr> @Klensin: I tried for Taiwan to change timezones, but my kid didn't let me. Since I was home during the day, I could play....
[11:04:03] <Melinda> alto
[11:04:32] <Melinda> http://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/alto/2012-03-29.html
[11:05:08] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 16: Comments I have heard this week (4)
[11:06:20] <Klensin> @mcr: Yeah. There have long been general problems with both remote setups and IETF meetings that are local. If you get to sleep in your own bed, children, bosses, co-workers, and others assume you are in town and available, so you end up having to work both schedules. I really don't know what to do about it.
[11:06:24] <mcr> Melinda: your point is that there was one remote person, and then nothing at all was said?
[11:07:06] <mcr> @Klensin: I filled my calendar with the WG slots, and also with "sleep". Still, many ignore my calendar.
[11:09:05] <Klensin> @mcr: yes. I've not had the experience personally but I'd imagine trying to explain to a six-year-old that Mommie or Daddy is really in a meeting halfway around the world (in spite of being obviously in the room) and you have to check the calendar before talking with him or her would be really challenging :-(
[11:09:15] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 17: Comments I have heard this week (5)
[11:09:26] <Lorenzo Miniero> the realtime text in the plenary was especially useful for those people who don't speak English good enough to the point of finding out spelling errors
[11:09:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> Enslish is not my first language and I found it useful
[11:09:58] <SM> And it can be used for minutes if someone pays for all that
[11:10:00] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 18: Goals of this work
[11:10:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> absolutely
[11:10:52] <mcr> mic line is open.
[11:11:38] <Klensin> Can't hear Randy
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[11:12:37] <SM> Mic: Is having real-time transcription for all WGs something the IAOC can consider?
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[11:13:54] <mcr> maybe we need a sign in each room saying "mtd@ietf.org"...
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[11:14:23] <Ray Pelletier> yes
[11:14:38] <Klensin> Hmm. I wonder if we could get a few Internet-enabled tennis ball throwing machines, such that properly authenticated remote participants could throw things at the chair if they were trying to send in comments and no one was paying attention? Of course, we could use remote ripe-fruit-throwing devices for other purposes :-) (mic optional)
[11:14:41] <Ray Pelletier> it goes out on the All list eery meeting\
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[11:15:03] <SM> Ray, I was thinking in terms of cost. I know that there are different levels of service.
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[11:15:25] <mcr> SM's MIC is after the fellow after Dave.
[11:16:03] <Klensin> Ray, at least one time this week, something sent to mtd@ietf.org was not reported ot the streaming folks on a timely basis. Much more serious probably than is obvious locally -- I ended up making a habit of sending to all three addresses.
[11:16:22] <Klensin> Can't hear.
[11:17:30] <SM> Mic: (adding to transcription) it helps local attendees in non-Englisg countries
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[11:18:11] <Klensin> I heard Paul say "speak up" but the speaker (Tony?) continues to be too low-level
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[11:20:42] <Klensin> Mic: This would probably be horrendous from a cost standpoint, but I'm beginning to wonder whether we need someone in every room with a hand on a "microphone gain" knob. I've had bad experience with AGC in conference settings, but maybe that technology has improved.
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[11:22:49] <Klensin> Mic: Part of the difference is that reading slides on a laptop permits look-behind and look-ahead that are not available with the big screeen. Especially useful when the presentation is in a different language from one's one or the material is technically complex.
[11:23:04] <hildjj> Klensin: I could imagine all of the remote participants being able to vote on the current gain
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[11:24:11] <SM> I thought that I was after Dave
[11:24:30] <mcr> guy after dave...
[11:24:51] <SM> He was not standing behind Dave :-)
[11:25:22] <Lorenzo Miniero> he was actually, just a bit farther
[11:25:28] <Klensin> @hildjj: After an experience earlier in the week, I'm really down on real-time voting (details another time). But, if what you mean is that I've got a local "volume" control knob, yes, I've been juggling it frequently but, if the signal isn't there, it isn't there. I.e., it is lots more useful for controlling "too loud" than it is for bringing "too soft" up.
[11:27:51] <hildjj> Klensin: I am not an audio engineer, but this seems like something that could be achieved with automatic gain control on the sending side. perhaps with a little bit of visual feedback to the speaker.
[11:31:14] <Simon Romano> Goodbye guys!
[11:31:18] Ray Pelletier leaves the room
[11:31:20] <mcr> bye.
[11:31:20] amorris leaves the room
[11:31:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> bye!
[11:31:25] <Simon Romano> This was our last Meetecho session @ IETF 83...
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[11:31:27] <Tobia Castaldi> bye
[11:31:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> time to get some sleep :)
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[11:31:36] <Melinda> Good travels
[11:31:39] <Klensin> @hildjj: That was where the comment about automatic gain control (sorry if "AGC" wasn't obvious). Last I looked into it (several years ago), it worked well for individual speakers. But, in a room with multiple speakers and multiple mics creating noise, it gets hard. For example, unless all but one mic are completely disabled, the puppies try to bring the gain from nearby keyboards up becuase they might be signal. You see the problem.
[11:31:42] <SM> Thanks, mcr, for channeling
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[11:31:55] <Simon Romano> We hope we'll meet (echo) you soon @ next meetings ;-)
[11:32:14] <Simon Romano> Thank you Melinda!
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[11:32:46] <Klensin> @Simon. Thanks for the effort. More comments coming. Others, especially those doing channelling, many thanks from ee too.
[11:32:54] <Klensin> s/ee/me/
[11:33:21] <Simon Romano> ...it was our pleasure. Looking forward to you precious feedback.
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