IETF
rtcweb@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, 15 November 2011< ^ >
martin.thomson has set the subject to: RTCWEB WG http://tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/agenda
Room Configuration

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[00:49:48] <burn> Hi, anyone remote? I will be your jabber mic relay today.
[00:50:55] <Simon Romano> Meetecho room is @ http://taipei1.conf.meetecho.com/WebLite/login.jsp?ietf=rtcweb
[00:55:38] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: ??
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[01:03:22] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: ??
[01:03:30] <Simon Romano> Slide 2: ??
[01:03:30] <Simon Romano> Slide 2: ??
[01:03:33] <Simon Romano> Slide 3: ??
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[01:03:39] <burn> Hi, anyone remote? I will be your jabber mic relay today.
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[01:03:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> I'm remote
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[01:04:10] <Suhas> I am remote
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[01:04:16] <burn> Just prefix with "MIC:" and I'll relay
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[01:05:10] <EKR> http://qik.com/video/45833758 homies!
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[01:05:59] <Suhas> has the audio and video working for remote folks ?
[01:06:21] <Simon Romano> Presentation stopped
[01:06:28] <Cullen Jennings> I think it has sort of worked but need to reload the page once or twice
[01:06:34] <EKR> I can hear over the audio stream
[01:06:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> Suhas I'm listening right now with RTSP
[01:06:44] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: AVTCORE Discussion Status
[01:06:46] <Simon Romano> Slide 2: AVTCORE Discussion
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[01:06:59] <Randell Jesup> I can hear , quality is ok. Beeps annoying
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[01:07:38] <Simon Romano> Slide 3: What is next?
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[01:08:04] <Simon Romano> Presentation stopped
[01:08:06] <Cullen Jennings> @suha: working for you ?
[01:08:17] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: Report from W3C TPAC
[01:08:27] <Suhas> nope Cullen
[01:08:36] <Simon Romano> Slide 2: Logistics
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[01:09:01] <Lorenzo Miniero> Suhas, are you trying the integrated voip?
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[01:09:20] <Lorenzo Miniero> if it keeps on failing for you just use RTSP which should work fine
[01:09:32] <Simon Romano> Slide 3: Topics and discussions
[01:09:46] <Suhas> i was trying integrated voip. let me try the other option
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[01:10:04] <Ralph Giles> rtsp stream works in VLC
[01:10:26] <burn> audio: http://ietf82streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf826.m3u
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[01:10:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> rtsp://taipei1.conf.meetecho.com/3330006.sdp
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[01:10:55] <EKR> should I be seeing stuff on meetecho?
[01:11:04] <EKR> I'm just seeing the logo where the presentation ought to be.
[01:11:22] <Simon Romano> Slide 3: Topics and discussions
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[01:11:52] <Simon Romano> EKR: what about now?
[01:11:58] <Simon Romano> do you see the slides?
[01:12:03] <EKR> now it's better
[01:12:03] <Simon Romano> Slide 4: Important Conclusions
[01:12:19] <Simon Romano> You lost the first trigger ;-)
[01:12:31] <EKR> I don't know what that means
[01:13:02] <Simon Romano> The trigger which sends you the first slide as sson as you log in...
[01:13:29] <EKR> ah
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[01:14:28] <burn> igor faynberg at mic
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[01:14:51] <Hadriel Kaplan> EKR: and you missed the cricket sound played in your honor, when your portion of Thursday's agenda was shown
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[01:15:36] <EKR> heh. I would prefer that my theme music be the sound of an espresso shot being pulled
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[01:16:04] <Cullen Jennings> you can find the W3C API spec at http://dev.w3.org/2011/webrtc/editor/webrtc.html
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[01:16:18] <Simon Romano> Slide 5: Spec Status
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[01:16:40] <Hadriel Kaplan> I was thinking more of The Imperial March from Star Wars (ie, Vader's theme)
[01:16:44] <Hadriel Kaplan> :)
[01:16:47] <EKR> Hadriel: that would be OK too
[01:17:04] <Simon Romano> Slide 6: We're Doing Fine!
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[01:17:19] <Simon Romano> Presentation stopped
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[01:17:47] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: Glare Handling in WebRTC Signalling
[01:18:01] <EKR> This doesn't seem like the right slide deck
[01:18:17] <Simon Romano> Presentation stopped
[01:18:18] <giles> EKR: note the draft author
[01:18:21] <EKR> seeing as it is about glare handling and flufyf is talking about roap
[01:18:30] <burn> nope, wrong deck
[01:18:35] <Simon Romano> I'm looking for the right slide deck...sorry.
[01:18:39] <giles> ’k
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[01:19:37] <Simon Romano> Slide 1: IETF 82 Cullen Jennings
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[01:19:41] <Simon Romano> Slide 3: •  More on each of these fields late
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[01:19:55] <Simon Romano> Slide 4: Web Server
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[01:20:09] <Simon Romano> These guys drive us crazy with the agenda!
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[01:21:40] <Simon Romano> Slide 5: Web Server
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[01:22:16] <Simon Romano> Slide 6: Web Server
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[01:24:31] <Simon Romano> Slide 7
[01:24:40] <Simon Romano> Slide 8
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[01:24:59] <Simon Romano> Slide 9
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[01:26:18] <Linyi Tian> good morning
[01:26:27] <Linyi Tian> what does skype/microsotf means?
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[01:26:58] <Wolfgang Beck> skype was recently acquired by microsoft.
[01:27:27] <Linyi Tian> oh, yes
[01:28:10] <Dean Willis> Incidentally, I'm having a hard time with the Meetecho access. I get "Error joining room" ...
[01:28:28] <Linyi Tian> try another name.
[01:28:32] <Lorenzo Miniero> Dean, which name are you putting in when trying to join?
[01:28:34] <EKR> Dean: are you using the same username as you use in jabber?
[01:28:38] <EKR> That's kind of a defect
[01:28:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> the name you write is used as your nickname
[01:28:44] <Dean Willis> Using "Dean Willis"
[01:28:45] <Gonzalo> Dean, I had the same problem. After tryin a few times, I just changed the capitalization of my name, and it worked.
[01:28:47] <Lorenzo Miniero> so if you're already in with the same name you get a conflict
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[01:28:53] <Dean Willis> hmmm.
[01:28:56] <EKR> Lorenzo: this seems like kind of a defect.
[01:29:02] <jdrosen> Are the slides in meetecho synced with what is on screen now?
[01:29:09] <Lorenzo Miniero> it is at the monent, sorry about that
[01:29:16] <Linyi Tian> i just joined with T01. It always reject me as "Linyi Tian"
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[01:29:40] <burn> simon, we are on slide 6
[01:29:54] <burn> (because cullen is discussing picture)
[01:29:58] <Dean Willis> That makes sense. I probably have a MeetEcho account "Dean Willis" from the early trials.
[01:30:02] <T01> looks like the slides are not shown on the right side
[01:30:24] <Simon Romano> ?
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[01:31:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> Dean you actually don't need an account for joining here, accounts are generated on the fly and destroyed when you leave the meeting
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[01:31:32] <deanwillis> Wasn't trying to use one, Lorenzo. Doesn't mean I don't already have one. Linyi Toan was right -- came in with different name and it worked.
[01:31:43] <deanwillis> Linyi Tian, sorry (sp error)
[01:31:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> oh ok sorry
[01:32:06] <T01> you can call me 01 or Linyi
[01:32:47] <Simon Romano> Slide 5
[01:32:55] <T01> The architecture slides are interesting.
[01:33:18] <T01> Simon: Chair mentioned the consensus just now. Could you echo it here?
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[01:33:30] <Suhas> I agree too
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[01:34:06] <burn> sorry, i was talking with Simon. Did not hear consensus — heard Cullen say that he thought there was consensus and Hadriel disagreed
[01:34:17] <burn> If someone else heard a clear consensus, please add
[01:34:36] <Simon Romano> Slide 6
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[01:39:11] <EKR> who is talking?
[01:39:22] <burn> can't see
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[01:39:39] <hardie> Wolfgang Beck, I think
[01:41:16] <burn> magnus speaking from the front of the room
[01:41:44] <deanwillis> Colin Perkins speaking now
[01:42:35] <Simon Romano> We added a cam to record people at the mic...
[01:42:38] <EKR> So I'm actually not sold that what colin suggests is the JSON way
[01:42:42] <giles> can't we just use a key other than 'sdp'?
[01:42:44] <deanwillis> Nice 2nd cam!
[01:42:48] <EKR> The JSON way is to have a different key value. as giles says
[01:42:53] <burn> chairs, please remind people to give names at mic
[01:42:53] <giles> right
[01:43:09] <burn> (line is growing rapidly)
[01:43:13] <burn> the mic line
[01:43:16] <Simon Romano> :-)
[01:43:38] <Randell Jesup> The "web way" would be to let the application and the server define the data in any way it wants; pure data channels. I think there's a use for having typed data channels as an *option*, so that disparate JS apps can agree on a data channel using a standardized definition (like an IRC data protocol). In most cases, the data channels are private and opaque between the JS app and itself or the JS app and the server.
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[01:43:57] <Simon Romano> Slide 3, btw
[01:44:04] <Randell Jesup> If someone could echo that to the mic, I'd appreciate it
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[01:44:11] <burn> will do
[01:44:28] <burn> (fifth in line)
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[01:46:26] <Randell Jesup> burn: drop my comment; we'll cover this on Thursday in the data draft
[01:46:47] <burn> randell: okay
[01:46:51] <Randell Jesup> thanks
[01:46:53] <Wolfgang Beck> @randell: so you think rtcweb data is something where both parties are using the same JS client most of the time?
[01:47:00] <Randell Jesup> (conversation had moved on)
[01:47:13] <Randell Jesup> yes, strongly
[01:47:31] <burn> randell: yeah, the line was huge when you requested the mic — popular topic :)
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[01:48:39] <Randell Jesup> If you chat with web coders thinking about webrtc, I think you'd find that was the primary interest, not exchange between different apps/services
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[01:49:17] <Wolfgang Beck> That's what I'm trying to say all the time..
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[01:49:28] <Randell Jesup> (that == data channels between instances of the same app)
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[01:50:05] <Wolfgang Beck> once you have the same app on both sides, things get much simpler and need much less standardization time.
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[01:50:14] <Randell Jesup> right
[01:50:31] <Randell Jesup> and you don't need to negotiate them
[01:50:42] <burn> justin is (still) at mic
[01:51:06] <Randell Jesup> yes. Chat with Wolfgang is a sidebar
[01:51:49] <Wolfgang Beck> and with 3rd party auth [OpenID, OAuth] you don't need server-to-server at all..
[01:51:50] <burn> randell: my comment was to everyone as the jabber relay
[01:52:01] <burn> hadriel kaplan at mic
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[01:52:16] <Simon Romano> talking about slide 4
[01:52:25] <Simon Romano> ...and 6
[01:52:39] <EKR> wolfgang, yes, but only at the cost of having one side absorb the other side's JS.
[01:52:42] <EKR> Which really isn't that great
[01:53:34] <burn> harald jumped the line
[01:53:40] <burn> to reply to hadriel
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[01:53:48] <Simon Romano> Slide 3
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[01:54:09] <giles> but, but, the unicorns love the pink ponies very much!
[01:54:19] <burn> Harald is seated again, and Hadriel controls the mic again
[01:54:26] <Randell Jesup> I can't join the queue, but m= lines aren't per-se required for data channels
[01:54:33] <burn> jonathon lennox at mic
[01:54:37] <burn> jonathan
[01:54:38] <Randell Jesup> we can cover this on he list
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[01:55:04] <Magnus> Please start a thread on the mailing list regarding data.
[01:55:17] <burn> partha at mic
[01:55:34] <Simon Romano> slide 6
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[01:55:56] <Magnus> If there are still open issues we can come back to them on Thursday
[01:56:20] <T01> what was harald said just now?
[01:56:23] <burn> missed name of speaker
[01:56:31] <Simon Romano> Parthe?
[01:56:31] <T01> Bert
[01:56:40] <burn> yes, Bert
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[01:57:07] <burn> going back to slide 10
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[01:58:20] <burn> slide 11
[01:58:21] <Simon Romano> Slide 11
[01:58:56] <burn> slide 12
[01:59:16] <burn> "how session IDs get established"
[01:59:32] <EKR> Session IDs get established by RFC 2434 IETF Consensus
[01:59:54] <burn> slide 13
[02:00:21] <burn> slide 14
[02:01:18] <burn> slide 15
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[02:01:37] <burn> back to slide 12
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[02:02:34] <burn> that was christer at mic
[02:02:39] <burn> now igor faynberg
[02:02:58] <Simon Romano> Slide 14 on the screen
[02:03:58] <burn> slide 15: "ANSWER Confirmation"
[02:05:18] <burn> slide 16: "OK Message"
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[02:05:52] <burn> Magnus Westerlund at mic
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[02:06:38] <burn> slide 17: "ICE Pipelining"
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[02:07:32] <burn> is any remote person not using meetecho?
[02:07:42] <burn> (meaning only using audio stream)
[02:08:01] <EKR> I am using meetecho for the slides and the audio stream for audio
[02:08:10] <burn> slide 18: "moreComing flag"
[02:08:12] <EKR> however, I have done other sessions with just the audio stream
[02:08:14] <giles> burn: and xmpp, presumedly :)
[02:08:15] <burn> EKR: thx
[02:08:55] <Randell Jesup> I'm doing audio with vlc
[02:09:07] <burn> giles: yes. trying to figure out if it's helpful for me to send slide numbers and titles
[02:09:15] <EKR> however, on thursday I will be google talking in
[02:09:19] <burn> jonathan lennox at mic
[02:09:26] <EKR> and you will get to see my big giant head
[02:09:28] <giles> burn: I hind it helpful, thanks
[02:09:42] <giles> *find*
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[02:10:07] <burn> (line grew rapidly just now)
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[02:10:47] <Simon Romano> @burn: sorry, but automatedtite detection does not work correctly with this slide deck :-(
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[02:11:28] <burn> harald alvestrand at mic
[02:11:52] <EKR> can we rename it to lessComing
[02:12:20] <burn> that was Ted Hardie from the front who jumped in
[02:12:38] <burn> line dissolved
[02:12:46] <Simon Romano> Slide 19
[02:12:51] <EKR> what is 1800-gofex?
[02:12:52] <burn> slide 19: "1-800-gofex"
[02:12:56] <EKR> that's not even a valid #
[02:13:43] <Wolfgang Beck> Dean, we need your 'ceterum censeo forking esse delendam'
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[02:14:03] <burn> Matthew Kaufmann at mic
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[02:16:26] <burn> Christer Holmberg at mic
[02:16:28] <burn> silde 20: "Alternative design with media GW"
[02:17:02] <burn> Harald Alvestrand at mic
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[02:20:22] <burn> line just got huge again
[02:20:23] <EKR> Wrong wrong wrong
[02:20:32] <burn> EKR: who's wrong?
[02:20:43] <EKR> Oh, just making fun of Cullen
[02:22:28] <burn> Christer Holmberg at mic
[02:22:28] <jdrosen> cannot map answers into offers.
[02:23:34] <burn> Hadriel Kaplan at mic
[02:26:03] <burn> Matthew Kaufman at mic
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[02:27:41] <burn> Paul Kyzivat at mic
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[02:28:38] <burn> Partha at mic
[02:28:42] <jdrosen> Cullen is wrong.
[02:28:53] <burn> Paul back at mic
[02:29:46] <burn> Partha at mic
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[02:30:21] <burn> slide 21: "Glare"
[02:30:29] <burn> slide 22: "State Cleanup"
[02:30:54] <burn> slide 23: "SHUTDOWN Message"
[02:31:56] <burn> slide 24: "Indicating Capabilities"
[02:33:03] <burn> Matthew Kaufman at mic
[02:33:41] <giles> That's not the only issue
[02:33:57] <giles> It also provides more fingerprint surface for user tracking
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[02:34:10] <burn> giles: something to relay at mic?
[02:34:23] <giles> eh、we're overtime
[02:34:38] <burn> line is forming
[02:34:45] <burn> may get killed by chairs though
[02:34:57] <burn> Igor Faynberg at mic
[02:35:03] <giles> it's fine, as he says it's a w3c issue
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[02:35:52] <burn> as a regular participant in w3c group, i can say that it is very heavily discussed there (privacy issues)
[02:36:01] <burn> Paul Kyzivat at mic
[02:36:09] <giles> burn: quite
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[02:38:12] <burn> slide 25: "Capabilities Message"
[02:38:19] <burn> slide 26: "Hints"
[02:39:13] <burn> slide 27: "Stats"
[02:39:19] <Magnus> We do have time for important questions or commnets. But do consider if the mailing list might be a better place to raise your question.
[02:40:02] <burn> slide 28: "ROAP to SIP Signaling Gateway"
[02:41:31] <burn> Dan Druta at mic
[02:42:47] <burn> Colin Perkins at mic
[02:43:09] <Simon Romano> ABout slide 27...
[02:43:11] <burn> Hadriel Kaplan at mic
[02:44:25] <burn> Bernard Aboba at mic
[02:44:37] <t01> cool smile on Ted's baby face:)
[02:44:45] <burn> Ted Hardie about to speak
[02:45:59] <burn> Matthew Kaufman at mic
[02:46:53] <burn> Magnus from the front
[02:47:23] <jdrosen> can I get a comment made at the mic?
[02:47:28] <burn> Justin Uberti at mic
[02:47:33] <burn> jdrosen: yes
[02:47:58] <burn> getting in line
[02:48:08] <jdrosen> Comment: I need to disagree with my co-author Cullen here. My view is that, this specification is not a wire protocol. Its a protocol in the sense that ti defines a state machine, with abstract messages that must be exchanged. But it allows the on-the-wire protocol to be defined by the javascript.
[02:48:08] <burn> so type question fast
[02:48:45] <jdrosen> thank you.
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[02:49:46] <hta> we have met the W3C, and he is us.
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[02:50:07] <t01> could somebody echo the low level, middle level, high level API as cullen said here?
[02:51:39] <jdrosen> (raise hand in favor of offer/answer state machine)
[02:51:46] <Paul Beaumont> Ditto
[02:51:51] <Suhas> itto
[02:52:02] <EKR> yes, hand up
[02:52:22] <Neil Stratford> raise hand for not o/a
[02:52:43] <Jonathan Lennox> I believe low-level was direct control of media codecs, mid-level was sdp offer/answer, high-level was jingle
[02:52:49] <Jonathan Lennox> (To t01)
[02:53:51] <jdrosen> did cullen just say, "we could just rewrite ICE?" egads ;)
[02:54:40] <hta> 34 offer/answer, 4 non-offer/answer, 5 not enough information?
[02:56:28] <t01> thanks, jonathan
[02:56:39] <Suhas> Yes
[02:56:50] <jdrosen> raise hand for: must specify
[02:57:23] <EKR> raised hand for must specify
[02:57:25] <EKR> sorry, I'm slow
[02:58:13] <jdrosen> whomever Ted is talking to needs to be at the mic
[02:58:35] <burn> Jonathan, I'm the one he's talking to to get jabber info
[02:58:42] <jdrosen> ah, thx :)
[02:59:00] <burn> Dan Druta at mic
[02:59:06] <burn> mic line forming rapidly
[02:59:12] <burn> justin uberti at mic
[02:59:14] Ethan Hugg leaves the room
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[02:59:37] <burn> Hadriel Kaplan at mic
[02:59:50] <burn> Igor Faynberg at mic
[03:01:00] <Suhas> Yes
[03:01:03] <EKR> browser
[03:01:06] <jdrosen> browser
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[03:02:12] <jdrosen> can Ted restate the vote count
[03:02:38] <burn> 16 for browser, 11 for JS, 12 for don't know
[03:02:50] <burn> actually, "don't know" == "not enough info"
[03:03:01] <burn> Jonathan Lennox
[03:03:04] <burn> at mic
[03:03:13] <jmce> + 1 for not enough infomation on last vote
[03:03:16] <burn> Harald Alvestrand at mic just then with w3c comment
[03:03:20] richard.barnes leaves the room
[03:03:47] <burn> Wolfgang Beck? at mic
[03:05:35] <Wolfgang Beck> no, it's markus isomaki
[03:05:37] <burn> Matthew Kaufman at mic
[03:05:45] <burn> line forming exceedingly rapidly and long
[03:06:33] <burn> Now 7 people in line
[03:06:51] <burn> Harald Alvestrand at mic
[03:08:37] <burn> Cullen Jennings at mic
[03:09:43] <Wolfgang Beck> somebody did H.264 completely in Javascript
[03:10:41] <Neil Stratford> We did propose a starting point for a low level API to the W3C working group.
[03:11:16] <burn> neil: relay to mic?
[03:11:28] <Neil Stratford> yes please
[03:14:49] <burn> Justin Uberti at mic
[03:16:25] <burn> Partha at mic
[03:17:48] <burn> Igor Faynberg at mic
[03:18:58] <burn> Wolfgang Beck at mic
[03:21:11] <burn> Justin Uberti at mic
[03:22:00] <burn> Hadriel Kaplan at mic
[03:22:09] Cullen Jennings leaves the room
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[03:23:03] <burn> meeting adjourned
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[03:23:13] <Simon Romano> Goodbye guys...
[03:23:13] Jonathan Lennox leaves the room: Computer went to sleep
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[03:23:21] <Simon Romano> See you next time on Meetecho;-)
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[03:23:32] <jdrosen> bye!
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[03:23:39] <Paul Beaumont> Bye for now all. Thanks for the relay :-)
[03:23:50] <Simon Romano> Our pleasure...
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