IETF
rtcweb@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, August 1, 2013< ^ >
gmaxwell has set the subject to: RTCWEB WG http://tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/agenda IETF 87 audio:  http://ietf87streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf871.m3u IETF 87 slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/87/materials.html#wg-rtcweb
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[06:46:52] <moderator> New presentation: 01_ChairSlides2.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-8.pdf
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[06:58:26] <Olle E. Johansson> Good morning all!
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[06:59:29] gmaxwell has set the subject to: RTCWEB WG http://tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/agenda | IETF 87 audio:  http://ietf87streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf871.m3u | IETF 87 slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/87/materials.html#wg-rtcweb | Meetecho: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf87/rtcweb
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[07:01:04] <Lorenzo Miniero> hi everybody! a Meetecho room to attend the session available here as usual http://www.meetecho.com/ietf87/rtcweb
[07:01:35] <moderator> New presentation: 01_ChairSlides2.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-8.pdf
[07:01:36] <amirante> New presentation: 01_ChairSlides2.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-8.pdf
[07:01:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Note Well
[07:01:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Chairs
[07:01:37] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Note Well
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[07:01:47] <burn> Welcome, I am your jabber scribe.  If you need something spoken at the mic, please precede your comment with mic:
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[07:01:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Agenda Day 1
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[07:02:22] <Lorenzo Miniero> just FYI, the same WebRTC/Opus setup we prepared for the Technical Plenary experiment is available for this session as well
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[07:03:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[07:03:37] <moderator> New presentation: 02_Hadriels Compromise.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-2.pdf
[07:03:38] <amirante> New presentation: 02_Hadriels Compromise.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-2.pdf
[07:03:45] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Should    
 we    
 support    
  SDES    
 
[07:03:57] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Hadriel Kaplan
[07:03:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Should    
 we    
 support    
  SDES    
 
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[07:04:18] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: The    
 Ques<on    
 
[07:04:29] tomkri joins the room
[07:05:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Why    
 bother?    
  (hint:    
 for    
 
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[07:08:32] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: The    
 concerns    
 with    
 including
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[07:09:22] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Enables    
 Eavesdropping    
 
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[07:10:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: No    
 PFS    
 
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[07:11:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Suscep<ble    
 to    
 downgrade    
 
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[07:12:09] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Unverifiable    
 
[07:12:37] Simon Romano joins the room
[07:13:07] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: What    
 if    
 we’re    
 wrong?    
 
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[07:13:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 10: We’ve    
 been    
 told    
 Browsers
[07:13:47] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 11: Oh,    
 oh...    
 
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[07:14:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 12: Back    
 up    
 a    
 step...    
 
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[07:15:46] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 13: Compromise    
  Proposal    
 
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[07:16:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 14: Time    
 for    
 the    
 Mic-­‐line
[07:17:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[07:17:15] <moderator> New presentation: 03_MartinSdes.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-3.pdf
[07:17:15] <amirante> New presentation: 03_MartinSdes.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-3.pdf
[07:17:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Martin wearing a Comment #22 jacket :)
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[07:17:56] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Why I want to use SDES
[07:18:20] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Why SDES is awesome and useful
[07:18:48] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Why SDES is awesome and useful
[07:19:19] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Why SDES is awesome and useful
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[07:21:34] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: What problem it solves
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[07:22:51] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Why we use DTLS-SRTP
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[07:24:29] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: What does itt ake to authenticate?
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[07:25:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: All or (close to) nothing
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[07:27:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 10: Fin
[07:27:32] <moderator> New presentation: 04_EricSdes.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-5.pdf
[07:27:33] <amirante> New presentation: 04_EricSdes.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-5.pdf
[07:27:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: SDES
[07:27:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Eric Rescorla
[07:27:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: SDES
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[07:28:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: SDES
[07:28:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Eric Rescorla
[07:28:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: SDES
[07:28:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Overview
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[07:29:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Security Properties wrt Signaling Server
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[07:30:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Active vs. Passive Attack. Does it matte
[07:31:20] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Active vs. Passive Attack. Does it matte
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[07:32:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: This is the kind of thing I mean
[07:32:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Active vs. Passive Attack. Does it matte
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[07:33:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: DTLS vs. SDES Performance
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[07:35:57] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: DTLS and Backward Compatibility
[07:36:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Is reencryption that big a deal?
[07:38:37] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: Basic Scenario
[07:38:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 10: Reinvite for One-Way Media
[07:38:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 11: With EKT
[07:38:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 12: With Two-Way Key Push
[07:38:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 13: Why does it matter what we allow: Incomp
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[07:39:34] <xavier marjou> visibility, malice vs incompetence : even with DTLS-SRTP, you have no insurance that the browser does not share (accidentally or on purpose) "its" key material to an eavesdropping user .
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[07:40:12] <Olle E. Johansson> "Don't give people a foot-gun" - EKR
[07:40:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 14: Why does it matter what we allow: Malice
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[07:41:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 15: They say nobody will notice if you chang
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[07:42:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 16: Large scale monitoring
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[07:42:47] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 17: Large Scale Monitoring of WebRTC
[07:43:07] <burn> Hadriel lining up at the mic already :)
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[07:43:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 18: Surely that would never happen...
[07:43:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 19: Summary
[07:44:12] <wolfgang.beck01@gmail.com> hadriel wants ekr to talk faster
[07:44:38] <Olle E. Johansson> It would take a lot of CPU and thus generate CO2 emissions to run an EKR decoder in that baudrate.
[07:44:50] <Guest 2> Speaks too fast (and too loud) already, so please don't ;-)
[07:44:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 20: – And screw it up – Hard to distingu
[07:44:57] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 21: Questions?
[07:45:00] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 20: – And screw it up – Hard to distingu
[07:45:13] <Lorenzo Miniero> Proposed resolution
[07:45:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[07:46:10] <amirante> New presentation: 01_ChairSlides2.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-8.pdf
[07:46:10] <moderator> New presentation: 01_ChairSlides2.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-8.pdf
[07:46:38] <burn> Hadriel at mic
[07:46:48] <wolfgang.beck01@gmail.com> hm, can we use webaudio to slow down speech in a rcvd media stream?
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[07:47:22] <Lorenzo Miniero> mic line is much longer than the one the video displays :)
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[07:47:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> a laptop is in the way
[07:47:46] <stpeter> can remote folks hear Hadriel?
[07:47:50] <xavier marjou> yes
[07:47:51] <hta> The use of 2 mikes for mike lines is Just Bad.
[07:47:52] <stpeter> ok
[07:47:53] <Guest 2> Yes
[07:47:54] <burn> Something like 10 people in line
[07:47:59] <burn> EKR talking at mic now
[07:48:01] <stpeter> hta: agreed, especially here
[07:48:29] <burn> EKR and Hadriel conversing together at *same* mic
[07:48:37] <burn> Martin Thompson at mic
[07:49:09] <jgunn> The indivudual words come out much more quickly thatn other speakers, but when you factor in the battology (repeating the same word or phrase) and the "ums" and "likes", the actual information rate isn't that much higher
[07:49:27] <Olle E. Johansson> Hannes asked if Martin believe that Adam Langley is wrong.
[07:49:33] <Olle E. Johansson> Discussion about CPU usage
[07:49:36] <stpeter> jgunn: right, Eric is bursty
[07:49:38] <burn> Dan Druta at mic
[07:50:25] <Olle E. Johansson> Dan: What is a web browser? What is web os?
[07:50:50] <burn> Justin Uberti at mic
[07:52:26] <burn> Bernard Aboba at mic
[07:52:27] <Tim Panton> Counter argument - We've implemented DTLS in our gateway - we are helping other folks. Hardest part was SDP not DTLS.
[07:53:00] <hartmans> Wait, why wouldn't I want PFS on tab mirroring?
[07:53:01] <Olle E. Johansson> Tim - if you need relay to the mic prefix with mic: - do you need relay?
[07:53:27] <burn> Richard Ejzak at mic
[07:53:30] <hartmans> (if I need anything at the mic I'll stand up)
[07:53:44] <Tim Panton> Olle - I'm guessing the line is long
[07:54:06] <burn> Tim, yes, but it's my job to get in line if you want it relayed
[07:54:11] <burn> Mo Zanaty at mic
[07:54:34] <Olle E. Johansson> there should be priority for jabber scribes in lines...
[07:54:42] <burn> EKR at mic
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[07:55:00] <Olle E. Johansson> We still have long mike lines
[07:55:10] <burn> Ollie, no, but jabber scribe needs to get in line immediately when comment for mic
[07:55:16] <burn> Mo talking at other mic
[07:55:21] <Tim Panton> mic: I disagree with Justin We've implemented DTLS in our gateway - we are helping other folks. Hardest part was SDP not DTLS.
[07:55:36] <burn> tim, I'm in line
[07:55:36] <Olle E. Johansson> :-)
[07:56:04] <Olle E. Johansson> Ted orders Dan Wing into the line
[07:56:18] <burn> ollie, can you take over listing who's speaking?  can't see from mic line
[07:56:22] <Olle E. Johansson> ok
[07:56:27] Dan Wing leaves the room
[07:56:31] <Olle E. Johansson> Steve kent talking
[07:57:15] <Olle E. Johansson> Joe Hildebrand with webex hat on
[07:57:16] richard.barnes joins the room
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[07:57:50] <Olle E. Johansson> I want to know that I'm speaking to webex
[07:57:56] <Olle E. Johansson> And not another server
[07:58:43] <Olle E. Johansson> Gregory Maxwell next (Mozilla)
[07:59:19] <Olle E. Johansson> "It would be simpler if we had perfect knowledge about what the future would look like" - Greg
[07:59:28] <Olle E. Johansson> Hadriel next in line after Greg
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[08:00:33] <Olle E. Johansson> "SDES is a lot like unencrypted. SDES is a moral hazard" - greg
[08:01:20] <Olle E. Johansson> With SDES we need to browser to have a little foot-gun icon blinking
[08:01:24] hildjj joins the room
[08:01:40] <Olle E. Johansson> Hadriel talking
[08:01:50] <Lorenzo Miniero> that's what I was thinking about Olle
[08:01:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> or like a yellow street light sign
[08:02:01] <Olle E. Johansson> Hannes next in line
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[08:02:32] <Olle E. Johansson> Clipping is a problem in gateway situations - where you have multiple media paths
[08:02:54] <Olle E. Johansson> Because you have a gateway and set up multiple media streams in sequence (I guess)
[08:03:15] <Olle E. Johansson> Cullen as chair talked
[08:03:17] <Olle E. Johansson> Hannes talking
[08:04:03] <Olle E. Johansson> "No SDES" - Hannes
[08:04:10] <Olle E. Johansson> Martin Thomson talking
[08:04:24] <Olle E. Johansson> EKR coming up next in line - prepare for loud and fast. And foot-guns.
[08:04:39] Tim Panton leaves the room
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[08:04:54] <moderator> :D
[08:04:56] <Olle E. Johansson> THe line does not shrink.
[08:05:18] <gmaxwell> My argument was really hey if clipping is a problem we should improve clipping without busting the security.  If you allow a lazy option to improve clipping invisibly but enable passive surveillance... people will take it and have a competitive advantage.  And then you can't even have paranoids like me who use IDP and check fingerprints warning you that all your stuff is being monitored.   Bad is good.
[08:05:24] <Alessandro Amirante> thanks Olle, I'm sitting close to the audio mixer board to lower volume for remote participante... :)
[08:05:33] alfredh joins the room
[08:05:43] <Alessandro Amirante> *participants
[08:05:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> people passing by will start thinking there's a free tickets to something giveway going on
[08:05:50] <Olle E. Johansson> Eric Resorla - EKR - talking
[08:06:01] jesup joins the room
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[08:06:04] emil.ivov@jitsi.org joins the room
[08:06:10] <Olle E. Johansson> Daniel Burnett next in line
[08:06:20] <Olle E. Johansson> Burn - relaying
[08:06:33] <Olle E. Johansson> Meaning "Tim Panton" next in line
[08:06:57] <Olle E. Johansson> Tim has released a DTLS library as Open Source
[08:07:00] <gmaxwell> And the recording case can be detected by the paranoids.
[08:07:01] maire reavy leaves the room
[08:07:34] Gonzalo leaves the room
[08:07:43] <gmaxwell> +1 mandating PFS ciphersuites.
[08:08:09] <Wendy Seltzer> +1 to mandating PFS
[08:08:15] <Cullen Jennings> Jon is taking notes so he is line behind Alissa
[08:08:26] <Olle E. Johansson> Ack.
[08:08:50] <Olle E. Johansson> Jeremy Fuller next in line
[08:09:01] <gmaxwell> (Don't let someone get out of implementing a silly P256 field multiplier...)
[08:09:01] <Olle E. Johansson> Jeremy talking
[08:09:03] Gonzalo joins the room
[08:09:09] <Jonathan Lennox> [Martin stands up in his "Comment 22" jacket.]
[08:09:25] <Wendy Seltzer> +1 encrypted tunnel
[08:09:37] <Olle E. Johansson> So what's the fun with that? I did not get the Comment 22? Catch 22 related?
[08:09:51] <Olle E. Johansson> The USER WILL NOT understand this
[08:10:03] <jesup> +1 for PFS suites (no need to echo to mic)
[08:10:17] <Jonathan Lennox> "Comment 22" is "Using SDP in the API is a bad idea".
[08:10:26] Gonzalo leaves the room
[08:10:32] <Olle E. Johansson> Sam Hartman talking
[08:10:36] <gmaxwell> Right, bad is good people can't easily reason about the risks.  It's not an informed choice... and no man is an island on the internet.  I can't _choose_ to turn off SDES when all my @#$#@$@# communications partners need it.
[08:10:56] <jesup> gmaxwell++
[08:11:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> it doesn't have to be "invisible" though gmaxwell
[08:11:20] <burn> More specifically, Comment 22 originally was "we have an alternative proposal to SDP that would have let us avoid all this trouble . . . "
[08:11:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> there could be explicit indication that it's not the most secure thing going on
[08:11:32] <gmaxwell> (need it because their software vendor wanted to get to market a little faster...)
[08:11:37] hildjj leaves the room
[08:11:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> (just to clarify, I'm not taking sides, just thinking out loud)
[08:11:45] <gmaxwell> Lorenzo Miniero: I agree except if it is widespread that indication is not useful.  
[08:12:04] <gmaxwell> I need to be able to tell innocent lazyness from  something suspect.
[08:12:18] <Lorenzo Miniero> agree on that...
[08:12:19] Tim Panton leaves the room
[08:12:20] Tim Panton joins the room
[08:12:23] <Olle E. Johansson> SIP gateways will have to be upgraded ANYWAY, they won't be able to take webrtc anyway.
[08:12:26] <Olle E. Johansson> Justin Uberti talking.
[08:12:30] Parthasarathi R leaves the room
[08:12:33] <wolfgang.beck01@gmail.com> if dtls is so easy to implement, why doesnt chrome's implementation work properly?
[08:12:39] <Olle E. Johansson> Dan Wing (ordered by chair) next in line
[08:12:40] <gmaxwell> olle: yep thats why we were able to decide no unencrypted for webrtc.
[08:13:08] <burn> Thanks Olle — can't see the front of the line because of the sheer length of it
[08:13:08] <gmaxwell> (but we're not able to do the same thing to the existing RTP universe)
[08:13:10] <Olle E. Johansson> "We're bulding this giant cathedral" - justin
[08:13:29] <Lorenzo Miniero> bizantine cathedral, to be precise :)
[08:13:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> (or is it byzantine in English?)
[08:13:43] <gmaxwell> "no timescale" ... well sure not,  — if everyone can just SDES without working on ekt.
[08:13:49] <Olle E. Johansson> EKT is an avtcore project
[08:14:23] <burn> @Lorenzo:  yes, byzantine
[08:14:33] Erik joins the room
[08:15:15] <gmaxwell> you don't need to leak the keys to have group key agreement... leaking the keys to get common keys is just the lazy way, but it doesn't let you preserve end to end security.
[08:15:22] Parthasarathi R joins the room
[08:15:29] Gonzalo joins the room
[08:15:38] <Olle E. Johansson> "I am a co-author of SDES. Please do not use it!" - Dan Wing
[08:15:55] Erik Wahlström joins the room
[08:16:03] <Olle E. Johansson> "The future is not gateways forever" - Dan Wing
[08:16:08] <Olle E. Johansson> Aliassa cooper
[08:16:11] Gonzalo leaves the room
[08:16:11] <moderator> :-)
[08:16:28] <Olle E. Johansson> Burn - I see no name tag on next in back mike line. Do you?
[08:16:35] Gonzalo joins the room
[08:16:39] Erik leaves the room
[08:16:59] Dan Wing joins the room
[08:17:11] <burn> Olle, no
[08:17:17] <Olle E. Johansson> What is a "secure call" ??
[08:17:22] wolfgang.beck01@gmail.com leaves the room
[08:17:27] <Olle E. Johansson> We need to start defining that.
[08:18:07] <Cullen Jennings> if someone is sitting by Jon, tell him he is next at mike
[08:18:35] <Olle E. Johansson> <someone> talking
[08:18:38] <Olle E. Johansson> Sorry, did not get name.
[08:18:44] <Olle E. Johansson> From Verizon
[08:18:48] <hartmans> What is managed secure access?
[08:18:49] Gonzalo leaves the room
[08:18:59] <Olle E. Johansson> — Cut the mike line
[08:19:16] Gonzalo joins the room
[08:19:16] danyork leaves the room
[08:19:38] <stpeter> Olle: I didn't get the name, either -- https://www.ietf.org/registration/ietf87/attendance.py can help
[08:19:49] <Lorenzo Miniero> I only got "Verizon"
[08:19:57] <Olle E. Johansson> "Please do not do SDES" - Jon Peterson
[08:19:59] <stpeter> same here
[08:20:01] <Olle E. Johansson> Hadriel speaking
[08:20:18] Gonzalo leaves the room
[08:20:29] <Olle E. Johansson> "There is no end2end security" - Hadriel
[08:20:33] <gmaxwell> It might be worth mentioning that mozilla has IDP binding for this stuff _working_ using persona to auth.
[08:20:34] <burn> Regarding Tim's comment and the Comment 22 response by Martin:  I think the issue is that time and difficulty of DTLS implementation is dwarfed by the time it's taking to define SDP extensions for RTCWEB/WebRTC.  This doesn't necessarily mean "don't use SDP", but it does mean if we want to reduce overall RTCWEB difficulty and time for completion let's reduce SDP munging scope, not deep-end on the relatively insignificant DTLS implementation time.
[08:20:36] <Guest> Was it perhaps Bogineni    Kalyani?
[08:20:48] <gmaxwell> This was implemented by some interns with the existing stuff in firefox in just a few days.
[08:20:56] <Olle E. Johansson> Adam roach in audience said "Web developers doesn't understand this either".
[08:21:21] gavllew joins the room
[08:21:47] <Olle E. Johansson> Sean as Security AD talking
[08:21:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> you still need openssl 1.0.1 though, which is not the default on all distros on linux yet, though
[08:21:59] <gmaxwell> Secure as possible against what threat model?   .... Good thing that signaling providers don't cooperate selectively with parties that can keep themselves out of the news.
[08:22:14] <Lorenzo Miniero> (sorry, double though! :) )
[08:22:26] Gonzalo joins the room
[08:22:31] wolfgang.beck01@gmail.com joins the room
[08:22:37] <burn> Strong laughter in room
[08:22:38] <Olle E. Johansson> "You can make your choice, but we're watching you" - Sean
[08:22:45] <Olle E. Johansson> "That seems to be the general concern!" - Ted
[08:22:48] <stpeter> Roberto Peon at the mic
[08:23:07] Gonzalo leaves the room
[08:23:22] <Olle E. Johansson> Ross next in line
[08:23:27] Gavin Llewellyn joins the room
[08:23:40] gavllew leaves the room
[08:23:46] <Olle E. Johansson> "The effects of security is only understood after you had a negative experience" - Roberto
[08:23:52] wolfgang.beck01@gmail.com leaves the room
[08:23:56] <Olle E. Johansson> Ross Housley speaking
[08:23:58] <burn> Russ Housley
[08:24:04] wolfgang.beck01@gmail.com joins the room
[08:24:29] <Olle E. Johansson> "Let's not do it [SDES) again!!" - Russ
[08:24:31] <gmaxwell> people at one time said SDES would use S/MIME ...  and thus be okay..  Good think we can see the future.
[08:24:31] Simona leaves the room
[08:24:34] <jesup> Regarding a coment hadriel made in his presentation: yes, a site can terminate and force a "gateway" (MITM) you.  And Yes, you will be able to notice and we will be able to flag it to the user by default
[08:24:47] <Olle E. Johansson> ? at mic
[08:24:53] <tomkrist> Alan Ford
[08:25:00] <Olle E. Johansson> EKR
[08:25:44] <burn> btw, mic line only has one person left in it after EKR
[08:25:56] <jesup> ekr++
[08:26:03] <Guest> Mic line was cut off, right?
[08:26:07] <Cullen Jennings> yes
[08:26:08] <Olle E. Johansson> Yes. It's cut
[08:26:09] <jesup> yes
[08:26:09] <burn> yes
[08:26:14] <Olle E. Johansson> ? speaking
[08:26:19] <burn> Wendy Seltzer
[08:26:22] <Jan-Ivar> +1 ekr
[08:26:25] Simon joins the room
[08:26:56] <Olle E. Johansson> We are about to take some hums
[08:27:10] <Olle E. Johansson> Ted excludes himselves
[08:27:22] <Olle E. Johansson> himself
[08:27:31] <Olle E. Johansson> Because of a very strong dislike of SDES
[08:27:39] richard.barnes leaves the room
[08:27:55] danyork joins the room
[08:27:59] Ram R joins the room
[08:29:14] Simon leaves the room
[08:29:37] <Olle E. Johansson> Question:
[08:29:40] hildjj joins the room
[08:29:43] <Olle E. Johansson> MUST implement SDES
[08:29:47] <Olle E. Johansson> MAY implement SDES
[08:29:51] <Olle E. Johansson> MUST NOT implement SDES
[08:29:54] <Olle E. Johansson> Three choices
[08:30:02] Ram R leaves the room
[08:30:07] andrey.uzunov leaves the room
[08:30:10] <Guest> How do ppl online hum?
[08:30:12] <xavier marjou> hum for MUST
[08:30:24] <burn> just say your preference on jabber
[08:30:46] <stpeter> (1) MUST implement SDES hum
[08:30:55] <stpeter> please indicate number for hum
[08:30:55] wolfgang.beck01@gmail.com leaves the room
[08:31:02] <burn> please say what you,re in favor of , not just +1
[08:31:03] wolfgang.beck01@gmail.com joins the room
[08:31:07] <Guest> I am not hearing anything.
[08:31:19] <stpeter> (2) MUST implement SDES
[08:31:22] <Parthasarathi R> +1
[08:31:30] Tobias leaves the room
[08:31:31] <stpeter> er
[08:31:35] <burn> stpeter, taht's wrong
[08:31:36] <stpeter> (2) MAY implement SDES
[08:31:42] <burn> there we go
[08:31:44] <Tim Panton> (3) MUST NOT implement SDES hum
[08:31:45] <stpeter> (3) MUST NOT implement SDES
[08:31:45] <jesup> (3) hum for MUST NOT
[08:31:48] <Giri Mandyam> hum for MUST implement SDES
[08:31:53] <katwalsh> hum for (3)
[08:32:00] <Guest> *humming for MUST NOT*
[08:32:06] <Olle E. Johansson> Chair Cullen and ADs trying to determine the outcome
[08:32:16] <mreavy> hum for (3) - MUST NOT
[08:32:23] <Olle E. Johansson> More support for MUST NOT than MAY
[08:32:31] <burn> I said summary is about the same on jabber
[08:32:34] <stpeter> decision in favor of MUST NOT implement SDES
[08:32:51] pm leaves the room
[08:32:56] <burn> a nontrivial number of people just left the room
[08:33:04] Dan Wing leaves the room
[08:33:18] <Olle E. Johansson> The security guys walked out.
[08:33:23] mahoney@nostrum.com joins the room
[08:33:31] <jlcJohn> (I lost MeetEcho audio, but .m3u is OK)
[08:33:33] <burn> more people still walking out
[08:33:59] Muthu Perumal leaves the room
[08:34:00] <Olle E. Johansson> It's messy here...
[08:34:31] <amirante> New presentation: 01_ChairSlides2.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-8.pdf
[08:34:31] <moderator> New presentation: 01_ChairSlides2.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-8.pdf
[08:34:55] mahoney@nostrum.com leaves the room
[08:34:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> John the audio should be up and running here, is it still ont working for you?
[08:35:02] <Olle E. Johansson> Adam Roach talking
[08:35:02] richard.barnes joins the room
[08:35:06] <Guest> Please don
[08:35:12] <Guest> 't shout in the mic
[08:35:30] <Olle E. Johansson> The room has calmed down, so audio should be easier to follow noe.
[08:35:30] <burn> If Adam does it again I'll say something to him
[08:35:32] <Olle E. Johansson> now
[08:35:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: MMUSIC Unified Plan:
 What does that
[08:35:42] <burn> That was, I suspect, a very unusual occurence
[08:35:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Adam Roach
[08:35:45] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: What Work is Needed? (1/2)"
[08:35:56] <Olle E. Johansson> Keith Drage talking
[08:35:57] <burn> Keith Drage speaking at mic
[08:35:59] <danyork> (I'll note that a number of people may have left the room, myself included, because there was technically a break in there and a second session started - and so there are are conflicts.)
[08:36:00] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: MMUSIC Unified Plan:
 What does that
[08:36:01] Tobias joins the room
[08:36:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: What Work is Needed? (2/2)"
[08:36:18] <Olle E. Johansson> Keith is an expert in asking procedural questions
[08:36:24] <burn> @danyork, maybe so, but it's more dramatic just to say that half the room left :)
[08:36:28] <jlcJohn> Lorenzo, when I turn down iTunes volume, I get the same silence I encountered five minutes ago... other MeetEcho functions seem to be fine.)
[08:36:35] <Olle E. Johansson> Ted is an expert in answering them :-)
[08:36:42] <burn> Martin Thompson at mic
[08:37:00] <Olle E. Johansson> Harald Alvestrand coming up (lower volume)
[08:37:02] <Olle E. Johansson> :-)
[08:37:15] <burn> Harald Alvestrand at mic
[08:37:22] Dan Wing joins the room
[08:37:50] maire reavy joins the room
[08:38:10] <Olle E. Johansson> "In the rtcweb wg I don't care about other working groups using our technology, I just care that they develop it" - Harald
[08:38:13] Dan Wing leaves the room
[08:38:15] richard.barnes joins the room
[08:38:27] richard.barnes leaves the room
[08:38:34] maire reavy leaves the room
[08:38:35] <Olle E. Johansson> Martin hovering around the mike
[08:38:36] <danyork> burn: :-D
[08:38:37] pm joins the room
[08:38:52] Maire Reavy joins the room
[08:38:56] <burn> Martin Thompson at mic
[08:39:04] Maire Reavy leaves the room
[08:39:40] <Olle E. Johansson> Justin Uberti
[08:39:45] pm leaves the room
[08:39:53] <Olle E. Johansson> Christer Holmberg coming up
[08:40:05] mahoney@nostrum.com joins the room
[08:40:05] <Olle E. Johansson> PLEASE keep your name badges on folks. It does help scribes!!!
[08:40:27] <burn> Christer Holmberg at mic
[08:40:37] Maire Reavy joins the room
[08:40:47] <burn> Justin Uberti at mic
[08:40:54] <burn> Christer and Justin
[08:41:06] <burn> dueling mics
[08:41:15] hildjj leaves the room
[08:41:32] Dan Wing joins the room
[08:42:03] pm joins the room
[08:42:05] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: What Work is Needed? (1/2)"
[08:42:10] <Olle E. Johansson> Justin
[08:42:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: What Work is Needed? (2/2)"
[08:42:53] <burn> Harald Alvestrand at mic
[08:43:05] <Olle E. Johansson> Colin Perkins
[08:43:26] <burn> Colin was not talking
[08:43:32] <richard.barnes> ok, the room has gotten a little silly
[08:43:35] <Olle E. Johansson> He got side-tracked
[08:43:40] <burn> Harald still
[08:43:41] <Guest> 20013?
[08:43:52] <burn> Now Colin Perkins
[08:43:52] <Olle E. Johansson> "a little silly" - do we have grades of sillyness
[08:43:57] <Olle E. Johansson> Colin Perkins
[08:44:05] <richard.barnes> Olle: for sure
[08:44:07] <Olle E. Johansson> Keith next
[08:44:35] Gonzalo joins the room
[08:45:13] Justin Uberti joins the room
[08:45:27] <Olle E. Johansson> Ted speaking (chair)
[08:46:27] <burn> Keith Drage at mic
[08:46:43] <Olle E. Johansson> Keith discussing the process. No one is very surprised.
[08:47:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: What Work is Needed? (1/2)"
[08:47:27] <Olle E. Johansson> Christer HOlmberg
[08:47:27] <burn> Christer Holmberg at mic
[08:47:58] mahoney@nostrum.com leaves the room
[08:48:10] <Olle E. Johansson> Cullen as individual
[08:48:40] <Olle E. Johansson> Colin Perkins
[08:48:41] <burn> Colin Perkins at mic
[08:48:47] <Olle E. Johansson> Actually speaking now!
[08:49:24] hartmans leaves the room: Disconnected: connection closed
[08:49:28] <Olle E. Johansson> Adam answering
[08:49:31] <Olle E. Johansson> Ted talking
[08:49:43] <Olle E. Johansson> Adam, Ted, Cullen, Colin discussing
[08:50:07] hta leaves the room
[08:51:33] <burn> Martin Thompson at mic
[08:52:35] <Olle E. Johansson> Harald and Christer waiting in mike line
[08:52:36] Parthasarathi R leaves the room
[08:52:56] <burn> Harald Alvestrand at mic
[08:52:56] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: What Work is Needed? (2/2)"
[08:53:03] <burn> whoops, sorry
[08:53:04] Justin Uberti leaves the room
[08:53:04] <burn> not yet
[08:53:14] <Olle E. Johansson> Backwards error correction?
[08:53:24] <burn> now harald
[08:53:30] <Olle E. Johansson> Confirm :-)
[08:53:34] <Olle E. Johansson> With w3c chair hat on
[08:54:10] <Olle E. Johansson> Is it "kill your darlings" time
[08:54:11] <Olle E. Johansson> ?
[08:54:34] <Lorenzo Miniero> sounds like it :)
[08:54:56] <burn> As a W3C WebRTC spec editor, I agree with Harald.  I'm a bit nervous about the dependencies
[08:55:00] <Olle E. Johansson> Christer talking
[08:55:50] <Olle E. Johansson> Justin Uberti talking
[08:56:10] <tsuichi> +
[08:56:25] <Olle E. Johansson> Cullen talking
[08:56:37] <Olle E. Johansson> Ted talking
[08:56:46] Erik Wahlström leaves the room
[08:56:49] <Olle E. Johansson> Justin again
[08:57:48] <burn> Bernard Aboba at mic
[08:57:48] <Olle E. Johansson> Bernard Aboba talking
[08:58:47] <Olle E. Johansson> Martin talking
[08:59:36] hta joins the room
[08:59:51] <Olle E. Johansson> Ted with chair hat on
[09:00:11] Justin Uberti joins the room
[09:00:39] <Olle E. Johansson> Cullen
[09:00:56] mahoney@nostrum.com joins the room
[09:01:06] <Olle E. Johansson> EKR in line
[09:01:19] <Olle E. Johansson> Ted speaking
[09:01:54] mahoney@nostrum.com leaves the room
[09:01:56] mahoney@nostrum.com joins the room
[09:02:02] Tobias leaves the room
[09:02:08] <burn> Martin again
[09:02:22] <burn> (or still)
[09:02:23] <Olle E. Johansson> With the "Comment 22" jacket on
[09:03:19] <Olle E. Johansson> cullen wants to push documents out of the door.
[09:03:30] <Olle E. Johansson> Eric Rescorla
[09:03:30] <burn> EKR at mic
[09:03:43] <Olle E. Johansson> Put the standards on github as a living standard!
[09:03:54] <Olle E. Johansson> Fork WebRTC to RebWTC any time you want!
[09:04:24] <moderator> :-) !
[09:05:32] <Olle E. Johansson> Cullen
[09:05:43] <burn> "Living spec" documents tend to need/have dictators.  Dictators have both advantages and disadvantages.
[09:05:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[09:05:47] miconda joins the room
[09:05:50] <moderator> New presentation: 05_EricSecurity.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-7.pdf
[09:05:50] <amirante> New presentation: 05_EricSecurity.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-7.pdf
[09:05:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Security documents rundown
[09:05:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Eric Rescorla
[09:06:00] <Olle E. Johansson> Prepare for EKR doing a presentation again
[09:06:00] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Security documents rundown
[09:06:13] <Olle E. Johansson> "Short briefing" - EKR. With many words and high speed I guess!
[09:06:15] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Overview
[09:06:54] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Selected changes to draft-ietf-rtcweb-se
[09:08:02] <Olle E. Johansson> Repeat: If anyone wants a jabber scribe to relay you to the meeting, please prefix your statement with "mic:"
[09:08:29] <Olle E. Johansson> Martin
[09:08:39] <Olle E. Johansson> Keith Drage
[09:08:42] <Olle E. Johansson> not yet
[09:08:52] <Lorenzo Miniero> and just as a reminder, a Meetecho room with integrated jabber+slides+audio/video is available for remote attendees: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf87/rtcweb
[09:08:53] <Olle E. Johansson> Keith Drage
[09:09:11] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Selected changes to draft-ietf-rtcweb-se
[09:09:27] <Olle E. Johansson> Martin jumped to mic
[09:09:58] <Olle E. Johansson> MeetEcho should be able to repeat that jump in slow-mo
[09:10:19] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Screen Sharing
[09:10:21] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Proposed Screen Sharing Requirements
[09:10:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> yes but then we wouldn't be able to keep up :)
[09:11:08] mahoney@nostrum.com leaves the room
[09:11:49] <Olle E. Johansson> Is this about viewing a screen or vnc-like "take-over-your mouse and keyboard"?
[09:11:55] <Olle E. Johansson> Those are very different
[09:11:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> just vieweing
[09:12:17] <Olle E. Johansson> I do hope so.
[09:12:19] <Olle E. Johansson> :-)
[09:12:34] <Lorenzo Miniero> in the current proof of concept implementation, it's a video feed
[09:13:11] <Lorenzo Miniero> the one Chrome implements, at least, not sure if Firefox does as well
[09:13:26] <Olle E. Johansson> Btw, it's Martin Thompson speaking
[09:13:32] Gonzalo 2 joins the room
[09:14:11] <Olle E. Johansson> Jonathan Lennox waiting to speak
[09:14:27] Gonzalo 2 leaves the room
[09:15:42] Justin Uberti leaves the room
[09:16:02] Stephan Wenger joins the room
[09:16:23] <Olle E. Johansson> Bernard was speaking
[09:16:27] <Olle E. Johansson> Jonathan speaking
[09:16:38] <Olle E. Johansson> The line is growing
[09:17:43] <Guest> Why would the browser need to know whether it's the desktop you're sharing, or a window (of an application)?
[09:17:43] <Olle E. Johansson> "javascript should not get access to the list of windows to be shared"  - Jonathan
[09:17:46] <Olle E. Johansson> Martin again
[09:17:46] Stephan Wenger leaves the room
[09:17:51] Stephan Wenger joins the room
[09:18:51] xavier marjou leaves the room
[09:19:08] <Olle E. Johansson> "...A bunch of us have dinner with ourselves" - EKR
[09:19:31] <Olle E. Johansson> Ted (chair) talking
[09:19:43] <Guest> The only info the browser should need is: which feed goes in which canvas.
[09:19:44] <Olle E. Johansson> Justin Uberti talking
[09:19:57] <Olle E. Johansson> Guest: Prefix with "mic:" if you want us to relay (kind reminder) :-)
[09:20:14] <Guest> Cheers!
[09:20:17] <jesup> Agreed about explicit selection
[09:20:19] <Olle E. Johansson> Brian Rosen
[09:20:36] Justin Uberti joins the room
[09:21:00] <Olle E. Johansson> Alan speaking
[09:21:08] <Olle E. Johansson> Martin speaking
[09:21:26] <Olle E. Johansson> Roberto Peon waiting for his turn
[09:21:35] andrey.uzunov joins the room
[09:21:44] Xavier Marjou joins the room
[09:21:52] Stephan Wenger leaves the room
[09:22:38] Stephan Wenger joins the room
[09:22:47] Gonzalo leaves the room
[09:23:25] andrey.uzunov leaves the room
[09:23:51] <Olle E. Johansson> — mic lines are cut by our chairs
[09:24:02] <Olle E. Johansson> Dan ? tlaking
[09:24:27] <Olle E. Johansson> Martin Thompson tlaking
[09:24:32] <Olle E. Johansson> Greg Maxwell
[09:25:06] <burn> Dan Druta
[09:25:26] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Null Ciphers
[09:25:40] <Olle E. Johansson> Banning null ciphers
[09:26:14] <Olle E. Johansson> Justin Uberti and Martin Thompson
[09:26:31] <gmaxwell> +1 banning new ciphers ...    no one cares if a commandline makes you violate the spec.
[09:26:32] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Next Steps
[09:26:41] <Guest> +1 ban them.
[09:27:20] <Olle E. Johansson> "banning new ciphers" was propably not what you meant, Greg :-)
[09:27:49] <Lorenzo Miniero> "DTLS Keys and Privacy" slide on right now
[09:27:55] <Guest> null ciphers
[09:28:00] <Lorenzo Miniero> missing this in the slide deck we got from the materials
[09:28:04] <Olle E. Johansson> The set of keys that a site can use is tied to the origin - not on the slide.
[09:28:12] <Olle E. Johansson> (comments from the audience)
[09:28:26] <Olle E. Johansson> Richard Barnes speaking
[09:28:45] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Next Steps
[09:29:00] <Olle E. Johansson> Define "shortly after" :-)
[09:29:05] tuexen leaves the room
[09:29:09] <Olle E. Johansson> In unix time stamps
[09:29:25] burn leaves the room
[09:29:31] <Olle E. Johansson> ted hardie speaking
[09:29:34] Cullen Jennings leaves the room
[09:29:46] <Olle E. Johansson> We meet again tomorrow!
[09:29:49] <moderator> See you tomorrow, guys!
[09:29:50] <stpeter> meeting over
[09:29:51] wolfgang.beck01@gmail.com leaves the room
[09:29:53] Jonathan Lennox leaves the room
[09:29:55] Alex leaves the room
[09:29:57] <Lorenzo Miniero> meeting is over!
[09:29:57] <Olle E. Johansson> Thanks everyone!
[09:29:58] <Guest> See you!
[09:29:58] saghul leaves the room
[09:30:01] Alessandro Amirante leaves the room
[09:30:04] Guest leaves the room
[09:30:04] Guest 2 leaves the room
[09:30:05] Giri Mandyam leaves the room
[09:30:11] pm leaves the room
[09:30:12] richard.barnes leaves the room
[09:30:16] miconda leaves the room: Disconnected: session closed
[09:30:23] gmandyam leaves the room
[09:30:23] stpeter leaves the room: Offline
[09:30:24] hta leaves the room
[09:30:24] Jan-Ivar leaves the room
[09:30:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> we'll make the recordings available ASAP
[09:30:24] amirante leaves the room
[09:30:26] <moderator> New presentation: 01_ChairSlides2.pdf -- http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-rtcweb-8.pdf
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[09:30:29] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
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