IETF
rtcweb@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, November 7, 2013< ^ >
gmaxwell has set the subject to: RTCWEB WG http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/88/agenda/agenda-88-rtcweb | IETF 88 audio:  http://ietf88streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf888.m3u | IETF 88 slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/88/materials.html#wg-rtcweb | Meetecho: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf88/rtcweb
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[15:14:04] <basilgohar> hmmm vp8
[15:14:07] <basilgohar> (just testing)
[15:14:09] <basilgohar> :)
[15:35:04] <Christopher Webber> :)
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[20:33:09] gmaxwell has set the subject to: RTCWEB WG http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/88/agenda/agenda-88-rtcweb | IETF 88 audio: http://ietf88streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf887.m3u | IETF 88 slides: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/88/materials.html#wg-rtcweb | Meetecho: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf88/rtcweb
[20:35:24] ron joins the room
[20:35:45] <mslehto> I am getting 403 error page from meetecho service
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[20:37:35] <gmaxwell> I don't know if thats just because its early or because the link is wrong.
[20:37:44] <gmaxwell> (I didn't provide the meetecho link)
[20:37:46] <basilgohar> I think it's early.
[20:37:54] <basilgohar> The login process says the session has not yet started.
[20:38:05] <basilgohar> As opposed to the webinar mode, which just gives the 403 error.
[20:38:13] <gmaxwell> (it is early, I just didn't know if that was the cause. :) )
[20:40:06] <mslehto> thanks, I am not familiar with the service
[20:40:12] <mslehto> and yes, I tried the webinar mode
[20:43:20] <ron> tap tap tap
[20:43:33] <ron> ok, looks like maybe this works :)
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[20:47:52] <basilgohar> Welcome, ron!
[20:47:57] Lorenzo Miniero joins the room
[20:48:14] <basilgohar> See, this is just like IRC, only different!
[20:48:33] Adrian Grange joins the room
[20:48:43] Giri Mandyam joins the room
[20:49:40] <basilgohar> Meetecho webinar is working.
[20:49:40] mcmanus leaves the room
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[20:50:45] <Lorenzo Miniero> ywp, Meteecho should be up and running now
[20:50:52] simonapironti joins the room
[20:50:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> http://www.meetecho.com/ietf88/rtcweb
[20:50:54] Neil Stratford joins the room
[20:51:12] <Michael Graves> waiting for the webrtc/rtcweb feed to appear
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[20:52:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> it's in the WebLite interface
[20:53:03] <Lorenzo Miniero> (not in webinar mode yet, sorry -- but that's going to happen soon, promise ;-) )
[20:53:06] katwalsh joins the room
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[20:53:30] <basilgohar> Lorenzo, I was able to get the Icecast stream (I assume) from the Webinar, but live rtcweb link is only available with login.
[20:53:33] Ted joins the room
[20:53:34] <Michael Graves> so the flash mode is the only way to see video?
[20:53:41] <basilgohar> (Hence my double-attendance)  I promise to only vote once.
[20:53:43] markh joins the room
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[20:53:46] <Lorenzo Miniero> it is if you're in webinar mode
[20:53:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> if you're in the usual interface, you can use webrtc as well
[20:54:04] <burn> Hi, I'm your jabber relay for today.  How many remote folks do we have?
[20:54:06] <basilgohar> I didn't see the link.
[20:54:10] <basilgohar> I'm remote.
[20:54:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> the login is just basic bluesheet stuff though: just put a name and an organization and you're in
[20:54:26] <burn> thanks basilgohar
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[20:54:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> basil it's this one: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf88/rtcweb
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[20:54:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> from there you can choose whether to login or just use webinar mode
[20:55:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> but again, login creates a user for you automatically
[20:55:08] <Tim Panton> I'm remote.
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[20:55:39] ijjarvin is remote.
[20:55:51] <Adrian Grange> I' remote.
[20:56:00] <Zak Rogoff> Hello
[20:56:08] <katwalsh> I'm remote.
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[20:56:09] <Matthew Fredrickson> I'm remote
[20:56:17] <Steve Kann> I'm remote.
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[20:56:25] <mslehto> I'm remote
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[20:56:51] <burn> ack (lots of remote folks)
[20:56:52] <Alessandro Amirante> @basilgohar: if you're talking about the m3u stream, it starts at 1300 sharp
[20:57:05] John Leslie joins the room
[20:57:23] <burn> @remotepeoples:  if you want me to speak something for you at the microphone, precede your comment with mic:
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[20:57:30] <Alessandro Amirante> Meetecho already started, and also provides you with a low-delay RTSP stream...
[20:57:35] Boris Grozev joins the room
[20:57:39] <Victor Pascual> hi folks, greetings from Spain -- audio and video is working fine over meetecho
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[20:57:52] <Alessandro Amirante> Hi Victor!
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[20:58:05] <Lorenzo Miniero> hi Victor, good to see you hear :)
[20:58:08] Paul Giralt joins the room
[20:58:29] <basilgohar> The rtcweb stream in Meetecho is also low-delay, I believe.
[20:58:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> *here
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[20:58:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> basil: yep
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[20:59:34] <gmaxwell> Remember if there are hums you participate with, please indicate what you're humming for when you hum.   e.g.  "hum (pro alien overloards)", otherwise the delay makes hums from jabber ambiguous.
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[21:00:05] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 3: Monday Agenda
[21:00:10] <Alessandro Amirante> Current presenter: Chairs
[21:00:16] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 3: Monday Agenda
[21:00:16] <ron> is http://ietf88streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf887.m3u really supposed to point to nagasaki.bogus.com?
[21:00:19] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 4: Thursday Agenda
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[21:00:49] <Alessandro Amirante> ron: I think so
[21:00:51] Boris Grozev joins the room
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[21:00:53] <burn> Dan Romascanu at mic
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[21:01:22] <Jack Moffitt> hum (pro alien overlords)
[21:01:37] <Alessandro Amirante> Presentation stopped
[21:01:42] <ron> it's working now at least.  wasn't at first
[21:02:54] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 1: Codec decision A look at IPR
[21:02:54] <basilgohar> I don't see a slide at the moment.
[21:02:54] Ralph Giles joins the room
[21:02:54] <basilgohar> Oh, there it is.
[21:02:57] <Alessandro Amirante> Current presenter: Harald Halvestrand
[21:02:57] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 1: Codec decision A look at IPR
[21:03:03] <Lorenzo Miniero> ron, if you're ok with a lower quality feed, we publish a RTSP stream which is almost real-time: rtsp://meetecho.meeting.ietf.org/ndu2ot5.sdp
[21:03:06] Sara Morales joins the room
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[21:03:21] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 2: First, a look at H.264. What is it?
[21:03:36] Istvan joins the room
[21:03:53] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 3: H.264 Requirements
[21:04:09] john hernandez joins the room
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[21:04:33] Alfred Heggestad joins the room
[21:04:40] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 4: When do we have to pay?
[21:04:46] stpeter joins the room
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[21:05:15] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 5: H.264 Sw/Hw Implementations
[21:05:20] <stpeter> BTW do we have a Jabber relay for questions?
[21:05:28] <Ted> Yes, Dan Burnett is the relay
[21:05:36] <stpeter> ok!
[21:05:41] <Ted> Please use the string MIC: to signal to him that you need his help
[21:05:42] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 6: Using Platform H.264 support
[21:05:47] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 7: Now, a look at VP8 IPR.
[21:05:49] Dan Wing joins the room
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[21:06:17] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 8: IPR Licenses for VP8
[21:06:22] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 9: MPEG-LA Agreement
[21:06:27] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 10: Sources
[21:07:07] <Alessandro Amirante> Presentation stopped
[21:07:16] Oytdeescy leaves the room
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[21:07:19] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 1: H.264 as MTI for rtcweb
[21:07:28] RjS joins the room
[21:07:31] <Alessandro Amirante> Current presenter: Jonathan Rosenberg
[21:07:32] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 1: H.264 as MTI for rtcweb
[21:07:40] Makkes joins the room
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[21:07:54] <basilgohar> Sounds better.
[21:07:57] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 2: The Cisco Announcement Redux
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[21:11:03] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 3: What can you use it for?
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[21:11:53] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 4: Ship Date
[21:12:02] tsuichi joins the room
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[21:12:26] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 5: The Factors for Consideration
[21:12:27] tomoyuki.tsuichihara joins the room
[21:13:35] <Ted> And here I thought it was BGP.
[21:13:50] <gmaxwell> hehe
[21:13:53] <Alessandro Amirante> :)
[21:14:24] roessler joins the room
[21:14:50] <Ralph Giles> remember, video is scary. Don't worry your heads about it.
[21:15:10] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 6: B2C    
 Example:    
 Talk    
 to    
 Inv
[21:15:26] <burn> "Example:  Talk to Investment Broker"
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[21:16:25] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 7: The    
 Factors    
 for    
 ConsideraSon
[21:16:28] Paul Giralt (mobile) joins the room
[21:16:30] <Mark Harris> Don't a lot more businesses have Firefox and Chrome than standalone video devices?
[21:16:37] Simon Perreault joins the room
[21:17:02] <Jack Moffitt> the web is a fad.
[21:17:19] <Victor Pascual> oh boy, post mail used to have more experts than email
[21:17:19] Jeremy Laurenson joins the room
[21:17:41] <basilgohar> Actually, web video runs on Flash...
[21:18:13] <ron> so there'll be choice of binary blobs?
[21:18:21] <Ralph Giles> Aren't we the change control for VP8?
[21:18:30] <gmaxwell> Hm. When you release a good codebase under good terms, there is little need to reinvent the wheel over and over again... (also, IIRC unless I'm mistaken google uses the ffmpeg vp8 implementation in some of its products)
[21:18:34] <Lorenzo Miniero> I wonder where the "6 apps using Vp8" comes from
[21:18:36] <gmaxwell> Ralph Giles: there is an informational RFC at least.
[21:18:36] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 8: Hardware    
 AcceleraSon    
 
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[21:18:54] <Lorenzo Miniero> I guess they missed all the people working on webrtc apps the last 2 years
[21:19:24] <basilgohar> Lorenzo, there is something like on the WebM wiki.
[21:19:26] <Makkes> that's a classic "100% vs. 4"
[21:19:29] <burn> Rohan Mahy at mic
[21:20:03] <burn> Justin Uberti at mic
[21:20:35] <burn> Mo Zanaty at mic
[21:20:36] Paul Giralt (mobile) leaves the room
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[21:20:42] <burn> (and Justin)
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[21:21:57] <ron> and is anybody going to actually get that working before H.265 chips replace all the 264 ones from today?
[21:22:07] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 9: The    
 Factors    
 for    
 ConsideraSon
[21:22:16] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 10: Performance    
 EvaluaSon    
 
[21:22:26] <Ralph Giles> if it didn't include drivers, they could have included the tegra 2 and 3
[21:22:32] <burn> Bo Burman at mic
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[21:23:51] <burn> Ralph Giles at mic
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[21:24:39] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 11: The    
 Factors    
 for    
 ConsideraSon
[21:25:03] Jeremy Laurenson (me) joins the room
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[21:25:33] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 12: Looking    
 At    
 DistribuSon    
 Holis
[21:25:51] <burn> "Looking at Distribution Holistically"
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[21:26:37] <Lorenzo Miniero> sorry for the steady cam effect, but Jonathan is moving A LOT :)
[21:26:49] peder ulander joins the room
[21:26:50] <basilgohar> Lorenzo, where can we see the video?
[21:26:54] Vince Grove joins the room
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[21:27:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> basil, if you're on Meetecho, there's an audio/video tab with alternatives you can pick from to watch video
[21:27:31] vvucetic leaves the room
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[21:27:40] <basilgohar> Does the video work with Firefox?
[21:27:45] <Lorenzo Miniero> yep
[21:27:51] <basilgohar> I mean, in rtcweb?
[21:27:51] Jeremy Laurenson joins the room
[21:27:51] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 13: Patent    
 Risk    
 
[21:28:10] <Lorenzo Miniero> yes, it does
[21:28:17] <Ralph Giles> pleased to hear google hangouts generates no revenue
[21:28:34] <burn> Monty Montgomery at mic
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[21:30:16] <burn> ?? at mic
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[21:30:19] <stpeter> Matt Frost at the mic
[21:30:24] <gmaxwell> Matt Frost.
[21:30:24] <ron> Cisco isn't licencing the Nokia patents for its blob, how can that not be a risk?
[21:30:25] <burn> thx
[21:31:02] vvucetic leaves the room
[21:31:26] <basilgohar> ron: Simply because they're ignoring the applicability of Nokia's patents to H.264.
[21:31:46] <Max Jonas Werner> How do the upper rows lead to the conclusions on the "Conclusion" row?
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[21:32:08] <ron> why do we need to be afraid of unknown giants, when there are known giants to already be afraid of?
[21:32:10] <Lorenzo Miniero> creative math ;)
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[21:32:34] <gmaxwell> I'm confused that they're saying that they don't know about patent litigation against H.264, is this some kind of structured knoweldge where you don't read the news or talk to your business partners and only know about it if you're being sued yourself.
[21:32:49] <Ted> Cisco clearly believes there is a risk of non-MPEG-LA, or they would be standing in front of the full risk, rather than just MPEG-LA;  that's the point Matthew Kauffman has been saying about Google.  It's fair for them to make that decision, of course.
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[21:33:19] <Victor Pascual> he said skype is no longer using vp8?
[21:33:33] <Ted> He said someone at skype said that to him, yes.
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[21:33:39] <basilgohar> gmaxwell: Public acknowledgment can lead to treble damages...:p
[21:33:40] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 14: DistribuSon    
 of    
 H.264    
 –    

[21:33:41] <Victor Pascual> thxs
[21:33:46] <Max Jonas Werner> FUD
[21:33:58] <burn> "Distribution of H.264 — its about options"
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[21:34:30] <gmaxwell> ITU's list of H.264 patents, http://www.itu.int/ITU-T/recommendations/related_ps.aspx?id_prod=6312  which includes several non-mpeg-LA members,  Nokia is one of the best known non-LA parties that collects royalties on H.264. :-/
[21:34:40] <burn> Are others getting the slides titles okay from Meetecho?  For me on Adium they are occasionally messed up.
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[21:35:01] <Lorenzo Miniero> mea culpa on that Dan -- sometimes our script can't get slide titles right
[21:35:10] <Ralph Giles> burn: some of the titles are corrupt for me in the meetecho client
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[21:35:15] <burn> np, Lorenzo, just checking it wasn't only me
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[21:36:18] <Ted> We're definitely not getting 19 minutes back on this one.
[21:36:50] <ron> you haven't covered the browsers because it's the _users_ of firefox that need to download the blob, and they're the people who may not be able to do that in their organisation
[21:37:17] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 15: Its    
 about    
 Risk/Impact    
 Assess
[21:37:33] <ron> that it's ok for mozilla to say "not our problem" now, but that's not the same as there being No Problem.
[21:37:33] <burn> "Its about Risk/Impact Assessment"
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[21:38:16] <Ralph Giles> $0.20 on a $0.99 app where apple takes $0.40?
[21:38:35] <EKR> Ralph: presumably
[21:38:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> as if it were just apps alone -- he's not taking into account the fact you may have a server you're going to talk to
[21:38:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> 100k consume much faster
[21:39:03] <EKR> Lorenzo: how many servers do you expect to have?
[21:39:24] <ron> maybe the risk to them is their investment in H.264 ...
[21:39:25] Paul Giralt (mobile) joins the room
[21:39:29] <Mark Harris> The codec isn't usually a major part of the app; 20c per download is not reasonable.
[21:39:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> ekr: who knows... I tried reading how the encoder/decoder licensing works several times and I never understood it
[21:39:39] <Ralph Giles> oh, sorry, Apple only takes $0.30. That leaves as much at 50% of the revenue for the developer
[21:39:42] <basilgohar> We, apparently, are our own worst enemy...
[21:39:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> is it everytime I create an instance? everytime I install one?
[21:40:05] <Lorenzo Miniero> so how can I know if those numbers can ramp up with just one server?
[21:40:06] <ron> youtube is a little scrappy target?
[21:40:33] <EKR> Lorenzo: well, note that you can just download the Cisco plugin for your server
[21:40:34] <Ted> It's the kittens.  They are a scrappy little target.
[21:40:40] <gmaxwell> MPEG-LA lists only ~1280 licensees for H.264.  ... Yea, google's lists are smaller, but the difference is that you're legally required to ask MPEG-LA (and others) for permission to make a H.264 product.  MPEG-LA only has the "first hit is free" excuse for the short list.  The reality is that the license is widely violated, and the cost is really the tax-on-success that you can get hit up for settlements at any time, which is basically the as VP8's "worst case" under the argument that there are risks.  
[21:40:42] Jan Linden joins the room
[21:40:42] Anthony Versarge joins the room
[21:40:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> sure, but what if I don't want to? nobody answered to my concerns about that
[21:41:01] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 16: Overall    
 Analysis    
 Results    
 
[21:41:11] Jim Doran joins the room
[21:41:12] <ron> oh wait, the risk to Nokia is they sued over VP8 and blew their licence.  oops.
[21:41:14] <Lorenzo Miniero> I don't want to wake up every morning hoping Cisco didn't change the deal
[21:41:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> (Cisco or whoever else made the change, for that matter)
[21:41:40] <Victor Pascual> OK, H.264 is not free and VP8 has some risks -- why don't be go for a codec whose IPR has expired?
[21:41:41] <EKR> Lorenzo: I can't help you with that
[21:41:57] <EKR> Victor: because they are bad
[21:41:57] beaver joins the room
[21:41:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> no, you can't, that's right
[21:41:59] <Jeremy Geras> I hope the Open H.264 codec is bug free if I rely on the pre-built binary, 'cause it would be awfully hard to wait for a fix if I have a customer waiting
[21:41:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> nobidy can
[21:42:01] <basilgohar> Victor, that option was already discussed and, I think, rejected a long time ago.
[21:42:22] <Jeremy Laurenson> Google or Cisco could make changes with equal "Ease"
[21:42:40] Istvan leaves the room
[21:42:52] <Tim Panton> I think I've just been called a 'little guy'  :-)
[21:42:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> Jeremy I'd rather go for RF nevertheless, given the choice
[21:42:58] <basilgohar> The biggest player of all in this, financially, is Google...why is it not risky enough for them?
[21:43:01] <basilgohar> Do they just have dumb lawyers?
[21:43:03] <Victor Pascual> I think we all agree it's all about IPR, it's not a quality issue
[21:43:08] simonapironti leaves the room
[21:43:09] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 17: Conclusion    
 
[21:43:11] <burn> Victor:  the concern when this came up in early 2012 was that users will expect a certain minimum quality or WebRTC will fail because of consumer rejection
[21:43:37] <basilgohar> Also...kind of hard to drum-up pity for the existing players.
[21:43:39] <Matthew Fredrickson> The interop can has already been shot with a shotgun
[21:43:41] <gmaxwell> I thought we had a consensus that interop with legacy was a secondary consideration? (otherwise SRTP / DTLS / ICE / etc. would have been bad decisions)
[21:43:43] <basilgohar> They've been holding back the open web for a long time.
[21:43:55] <Ralph Giles> I thought patent risk was subjective out side of court precedent?
[21:44:14] burn leaves the room
[21:44:15] burn joins the room
[21:44:15] Melinda joins the room
[21:44:46] simonapironti joins the room
[21:45:00] <gmaxwell> Ralph Giles: it's less subjective when everyone agrees..  e.g. no one is arguing that there aren't patents on h264 (mpeg-la, and other parties).
[21:45:01] <ron> I thought we had the argument that people didn't have to use the MTI codec for interop if the MTI is only baseline.  how does that not apply to legacy interop for any other codec?
[21:45:03] <Alessandro Amirante> Presentation stopped
[21:45:13] <stpeter> Harald Alvestrand at the mic
[21:45:26] <katwalsh> Somewhat subjective--more like hard to predict; "safe" positions sometimes turn out to be surprisingly less safe than expected.
[21:45:26] Makkes joins the room
[21:45:27] <EKR> ron: I don't understand the question
[21:45:30] <stpeter> note to Jabber relays: seat yourself near the mic :-)
[21:45:38] <Ted> gmaxwell interop has not blocked other changes, but it is listed as an "if possible"
[21:46:18] <stpeter> Monty Montgomery at the mic
[21:46:23] simonapironti leaves the room
[21:46:23] Paul Giralt (mobile) leaves the room
[21:46:23] <Matthew Fredrickson> h.264 in webrtc doesn't necessarily = h.264 in existing devices/silicon, right?
[21:46:30] <gmaxwell> ron: perhaps mic that. it's an interesting point.  It's not like you can get full interop with any one codec.  "I want to talk to my H.261 videophone"
[21:46:31] <EKR> Monty "Monty" Montgomery
[21:47:16] <ron> EKR: JR argued that only having H.264 baseline wasn't a problem because "other profiles could be negotiated".  that same argument applies if VP8 is MTI, doesn't it?
[21:47:20] Hadriel Kaplan joins the room
[21:47:40] Johann Koenig joins the room
[21:47:42] <gmaxwell> Google already has binary codec that you can download for VP8: https://code.google.com/p/webm/downloads/list
[21:48:06] <stpeter> Justin Uberti at mic
[21:48:12] <basilgohar> *clap* *clap* *clap*
[21:48:12] <Tim Panton> We can't consider the H264 plugin as part of the MTI - the stated goal of this group is no plugins.
[21:48:32] <Victor Pascual> Tim Panton: +1
[21:48:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> "There's a plugin in RTCWEB..." sounds like the start of a joke, except I'm not laughing
[21:48:43] <Matthew Fredrickson> Tim Panton: +1
[21:48:53] Ralph Giles leaves the room
[21:48:58] <Simon Perreault> Tim Panton: +INT_MAX
[21:49:00] Flemming Andreasen joins the room
[21:49:01] <Tim Panton> @burn - can you voice that for us please ?
[21:49:03] <Jeremy Laurenson> Video costs bandwidth, not just CPU. Transcoders introduce suboptimal paths
[21:49:14] <gmaxwell> Tim Panton: under that theory you have no major webrtc implementations yet with a path to "ship h264 (without 'plugin')"  Though I don't know that we really meant that kind of plugin.
[21:49:23] <basilgohar> Tim Panton: You should say it prefixed with "mic:"
[21:49:23] <stpeter> burn: I can capture the names at the mic if you relay the questions
[21:49:24] <Victor Pascual> Tim Panton: I agree-- but at the same time VP8 has some risks
[21:49:59] <EKR> Lorenzo, Victor, etc: this is different from traditional plugins. We intend to have this be clean (from the user's perspective) on Firefox.
[21:50:10] <stpeter> Peter Thatcher at mic
[21:50:16] <Matthew Fredrickson> Justin Uberti: +1
[21:50:25] <Lorenzo Miniero> I'm sure you mean that, but it's still a plugin
[21:50:33] <Jeremy Geras> Justin Uberti: +1
[21:50:33] Flemming Andreasen leaves the room
[21:50:56] <EKR> Lorenzo: yes, it's still a plugin, but I don't really understand your point. It's not like Firefox isn't a big pile of dynamic loading anyway
[21:51:22] Dan York leaves the room
[21:51:26] <Mark Harris> If it's transparent to the user that is even worse, because they'd be accepting patent license terms that they were not presented with.
[21:51:29] <Hadriel Kaplan> ekr: so do you mean it comes bundled with Firefox without user needing to download it separately?
[21:51:41] <stpeter> Randell Jesup at mic
[21:51:43] Flemming Andreasen joins the room
[21:51:46] <EKR> Hadriel: What I mean is Firefox will download it automatically without the user doing anything.
[21:52:05] <Lorenzo Miniero> and if the Cisco server went on fire?
[21:52:08] <EKR> Mark Harris: well, they're not being presented with the VP8 license terms now.
[21:52:30] <Tim Panton> When will this download happen?
[21:52:31] <EKR> Lorenzo: and if the Mozilla CDN catches on fire?
[21:52:33] Raj Gossain joins the room
[21:52:36] <basilgohar> EKR: VP8 license terms don't limit people in any tangible way.
[21:52:42] Elias Perez-Carrera joins the room
[21:52:46] Joe Hildebrand joins the room
[21:52:46] <EKR> Tim Panton: we're still working it out.
[21:52:46] <basilgohar> MPEG-LA terms limit what you can do with the video you produce.
[21:52:46] <Victor Pascual> EKR; but will download it once or under demand?
[21:52:46] <Mark Harris> The VP8 terms do not restrict to non-commercial use
[21:52:47] <stpeter> Jean-Marc Valin at mic
[21:52:53] <negge> Randell +1
[21:52:57] <EKR> Victor: see above.
[21:52:59] <Makkes> EKR, with VP8 the user wouldn't have to download a binary plugin but it would be shipped with Firefox, right?
[21:53:03] <Lorenzo Miniero> by the way, that automatic thing won't work on Fedora: they ship customized builds of plugin-based apps, including Firefox, and they'll modify the code to prevent that
[21:53:13] <stpeter> Jeremy Fuller at mic
[21:53:20] <Matthew Fredrickson> Jean-Marc Valin: +1
[21:53:23] <EKR> MAkkes: With VP8 it will be as-now, we will ship it compiled into Firefox.
[21:53:25] <Jack Moffitt> i like how this is lots of questions but no one answering anything :)
[21:53:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> other multimedia apps like gstreamer, audacity, audacious etc don't have proprietary codec plugins available in the official repositories
[21:53:33] <Simon Perreault> Jean-Marc Valin: +LONG_MAX
[21:53:41] Dethe Elza joins the room
[21:53:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> and Fedora is just an example (one I'm particularly sensible about as it's what I use)
[21:54:02] <EKR> Lorenzo: well, if it's a customized build, it's not Firefox, so I can't answer quesitons about it.
[21:54:02] <stpeter> @metajack — I think those who can provide answers were asked to stand in the mic line
[21:54:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> ok, so I guess I'll be stuck with audio calls then
[21:54:25] <EKR> Jack: that's part of why I am answering questions here.
[21:54:33] <Victor Pascual> I guess we have the following options: (1)VP8-only, (2)H.264-only, (3)both, (4)none, (5)older codec with expired IPR
[21:54:36] <EKR> Lorenzo: no, you'll be able to do VP8
[21:54:56] <stpeter> Ralph Giles at mic
[21:55:01] <Lorenzo Miniero> with a friend using Safari? I don't think so
[21:55:19] <stpeter> Martin Thomson at mic
[21:55:34] <Lorenzo Miniero> negotiation is a nice thing and I hope that won't happen, but mandatory H.264 will clear the way of other codecs
[21:55:40] Andrew Yourtchenko joins the room
[21:55:42] <EKR> Lorenzo: If I understand your argument, it's that having VP8 be MTI will make Safari do that. I don't know if that's in fact true.
[21:55:52] marc.blanchet.qc joins the room
[21:56:06] <stpeter> Adam Roach at mic
[21:56:27] <basilgohar> Has the interop question been raised?
[21:56:27] <basilgohar> Oh...hah..now.
[21:56:41] Joe Hildebrand leaves the room
[21:56:45] <Makkes> Yeah, Cisco's move's a pragmatic hack that pushed VP8 in a corner in which it has to defend itself
[21:56:45] <Victor Pascual> MTI is interop; H.264 is interwork (towards legacy)
[21:56:53] Ralph GIles joins the room
[21:57:09] <stpeter> Jonathan Rosenberg is next in line for the mic
[21:57:18] simonapironti joins the room
[21:57:28] <EKR> Lorenzo: to be clear, I have no idea what apple will or will not do
[21:57:28] <stpeter> Ted Hardie next in line (from the floor)
[21:57:34] <ron> apple's problem was proxying for _everyone_, not just proxying for a handful of brokers in your bank.
[21:57:47] tylerromeo joins the room
[21:57:49] <Jonathan Lennox> 9 people currently in line for the mic
[21:57:49] <gmaxwell> makkes: it certainly appears to have reduced the short term practical gap for some parties! Though if Cisco is pleading ignorance about the non-mpeg la patents and lawsuits, ... uhhhh.
[21:57:55] <basilgohar> Transcoding is for those who have fixed hardware.
[21:58:13] Dan Wing leaves the room
[21:58:15] <basilgohar> VP8 couldn't be easier to implement, there's already hardware IP that can be used.
[21:58:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> nor do I, I understand... what I meant is that VP8 is RF, and companies like MS and Apple might integrate it really easily, should they decide they don't risk anything: doing the same for small people like me with H.264 is not the same thing
[21:58:30] <gmaxwell> Jabber has been pretty quiet at the mic. :)
[21:58:53] <basilgohar> gmaxwell: We're listening...:p
[21:58:54] <Makkes> gmaxwell, If H.264 is mandated as MTI there's actually NO incentive to ever change that.
[21:59:02] <EKR> Lorenzo: my understanding is that Apple and MS are very concerned about VP8. Maybe Bernard Aboba can speak to that.
[21:59:03] <stpeter> if folks in the chatroom have comments to be relayed, please prefix with "MIC:"
[21:59:05] <Lorenzo Miniero> H.264 will be forced upon us: Google and Mozilla may still decide to also go with VP8 anyway, I doubt others would
[21:59:13] <ron> except oh wait.  we can solve this problem.
[21:59:14] <stpeter> Ted Hardie at mic
[21:59:23] <stpeter> Matt Frost is next in line
[21:59:26] Dan York joins the room
[21:59:46] <basilgohar> Hug negotiation failed.
[21:59:52] <Zak Rogoff> :)
[21:59:57] <EKR> H.264: Here's what Mozilla intends to do: https://brendaneich.com/2013/10/ciscos-h-264-good-news/
[22:01:26] <gmaxwell> makkes: Agreed.   Cisco blob of bounty is awesome and a move forward and will help interop. ... but yea, it's not perfect as evidenced by the fact that if people wanted to use blobs for licensing reasons all those supposedly opposed to deploying vp8 for "licensing reasons" should be equally happy with the google vp8 blobs but apparently were not.
[22:01:48] Joe Hildebrand joins the room
[22:01:53] Joe Hildebrand leaves the room
[22:02:04] Magnus Westerlund joins the room
[22:02:35] <Matthew Fredrickson> Ted Hardie: +1
[22:02:40] <basilgohar> Or to pay for a license, if the blob doesn't work for them.
[22:03:03] <David Flynn> What vp8 binary blobs?
[22:03:14] <gmaxwell> Ted +UINT_MAX
[22:03:14] <stpeter> Matt Frost at the mic
[22:03:14] <Simon Perreault> Ted Hardie: +ULONG_MAX
[22:03:15] <basilgohar> David Flynn: The ones Google already provides.
[22:03:15] <Peter Dunkley> Does what Ted is saying mean that even if VP8 is MTI, Google Chrome will support H.264 too?
[22:03:19] <David Flynn> What vp8 binary blobs?
[22:03:23] <stpeter> Roberto Peon is next in line
[22:03:26] <EKR> I don't believe Ted is saying that
[22:03:30] <ron> what Ted said.  Thank you.  You nailed it 100%
[22:03:35] <David Flynn> gah, useless client
[22:03:41] <EKR> Is it Roberto Pe\{'}on?
[22:03:51] <Peter Dunkley> Well if he didn't mean that how can we all get the legacy interop benefits?
[22:04:03] <basilgohar> vp6 was used in Flash.
[22:04:16] <David Flynn> google have a binary blob for direct show and for quicktime, but nothing else on their download site
[22:04:26] <EKR> Peter: yes, I believe that that's the situation.
[22:04:32] <gmaxwell> David Flynn: https://code.google.com/p/webm/downloads/list  binaries for windows and mac.
[22:04:59] <basilgohar> David Flynn: Those are around 90% of what Cisco is offering.
[22:05:09] <basilgohar> And they've been offered from the beginning.
[22:05:12] <gmaxwell> VP8, of course, lets you use the source directly— but they do also provide codec binaries that those comfortable with the theory of law that fetching a codec from a third party shifts the licensing/patent obligations can use.
[22:05:23] <basilgohar> For example, no need for binaries on Linux.
[22:05:27] <basilgohar> That's all done from source.
[22:05:32] <basilgohar> But it wouldn't be hard to do it.
[22:05:47] <Ralph GIles> And the patent license and separate grant apply to uses of Google's binaries for VP8
[22:06:07] <Christopher Webber> not really enough talk about solutions that work for FOSS projects either, even a certain amount of dismissiveness felt :\
[22:06:39] Raj Gossain leaves the room
[22:06:49] <Christopher Webber> those of us running projects with unlimited distribution, who are trying to work with actually providing FOSS solutions, and don't want to be tied to one binary for life either (which is nonfree effectively then anyway)
[22:06:52] <Makkes> Ralph GIles, the patent grant does apply to the source code of VP8, doesn't it?
[22:07:02] <stpeter> Roberto Peon at mic
[22:07:07] <Ralph GIles> Christopher: indeed
[22:07:11] Flemming Andreasen leaves the room
[22:07:18] <stpeter> Xavier Marjou is next in line
[22:07:21] MattJ joins the room
[22:08:01] <Ralph GIles> Makkes: it does
[22:08:04] EKR leaves the room
[22:08:09] <Matthew Fredrickson> Ralph Giles: +1
[22:08:46] <Ralph GIles> the grant applies to " copyrightable works distributed by Google as part of the WebM Project." so it covers both source and binaries, regardless of who build or distributed them.
[22:09:02] <Makkes> less /usr/share/doc/libvpx1/copyright
[22:09:03] Cullen Jennings leaves the room
[22:09:03] <Makkes> :)
[22:09:04] <stpeter> Jon Peterson next in line
[22:09:12] Cullen Jennings joins the room
[22:09:22] <David Flynn> Ralph, and derivatives?
[22:09:28] <stpeter> Justin Uberti next in line
[22:10:03] <Matthew Fredrickson> Interop is dead
[22:10:10] <basilgohar> This is a really good perspective.
[22:10:19] <basilgohar> The interop, angle, that is.
[22:10:37] <stpeter> Peter Thatcher next in line
[22:11:08] <ron> wait, so it was a massive mistake before, therefore we should make it again?
[22:11:10] <Victor Pascual> recording media is just one use case
[22:11:10] <Ralph GIles> David: yes, derivatives are covered. The text is quite short. http://www.webmproject.org/license/additional/
[22:11:11] <Ralph GIles> David: yes, derivatives are covered. The text is quite short. http://www.webmproject.org/license/additional/
[22:11:22] <gmaxwell> huh, it's confusing to me. rtcweb is .. uh not inter-operable at all. .. except via gateways, the interop is about gateway cost... and so long as there exists implementations which won't do h264 MTI or not, ... well.. you can't avoid having transcoding gateways for legacy interop.
[22:11:33] <basilgohar> ron: I kind of got lost in what his point was.  I think he doesn't care about codec, just doesn't want people to talk about legacy interop.
[22:11:36] <Matthew Fredrickson> bingo
[22:11:36] Randall Gellens leaves the room
[22:11:48] <Victor Pascual> again, I think interop and interwork have different meanings!
[22:12:03] <Simon Romano> @lorenzo: btw, the VP8 real-time stream on Meetecho is really great :-)
[22:12:10] <David Flynn> Ralph: "this implementation" ?
[22:12:22] <Ted> Ron:  his point is basically that the working group has adopted other technologies to foster interop and stopping now seems silly.  At least if I hear it correctly.
[22:12:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> RTCWEB has already done enough to make legacy interoperability complicated enough (ICE, DTLS, RTCP-FB and SDP on steroids), why should I buy the argument that we should go for H.264 *because* of legacy interoperability?
[22:12:44] <Ralph GIles> David: not sure what you're asking?
[22:13:00] <Lorenzo Miniero> that didn't stop us from going in different directions when faced with other issues
[22:13:06] tylerromeo leaves the room
[22:13:07] <gmaxwell> David Flynn: there are two google vp8 licenses, the "spec" and "this implementation" one, the latter is shipped with their source and binaries, the former is with the spec. The terms are pretty much the same, the scope is just different.
[22:13:09] simonapironti leaves the room
[22:13:13] <Lorenzo Miniero> Simon ;)
[22:13:35] <gmaxwell> +1 no mti > h264 as mti...  if h264 is awesome for all sorts of market reasons, well I suppose the market will still use it where it wants to.
[22:13:36] simonapironti joins the room
[22:13:49] <David Flynn> So where does the encoder licencing sit in that?
[22:13:59] <basilgohar> Is no MTI still on the table?
[22:14:08] <stpeter> Rohan Mahy at mic
[22:14:09] <David Flynn> (Decoder side is simple, because it is covered by the spec)
[22:14:12] <paravoid> it would not work for Debian
[22:14:17] <stpeter> Dean Willis next in line
[22:15:17] <Ralph GIles> David: I see. You would need to rely on deriving from google's implementation for non-normative spec features. Or sign the cross-license agreement.
[22:15:31] Dan Wing joins the room
[22:15:35] simonapironti leaves the room
[22:15:35] ryweddle joins the room
[22:15:39] <Jonathan Lennox> Currently 13 people in line behind the speaker.
[22:15:46] <richard.barnes> how many people in here are not in the room physically?
[22:15:51] <gmaxwell> David Flynn: if nothing else the implementation grant includes it completely (because the implementation includes the best current vp8 encoder).  The spec grant says it allows the patents for " implementations of this specification " which someone might argue doesn't cover the encoder... but you can't say that for the implementation grant.
[22:16:11] Randall Gellens joins the room
[22:16:21] <stpeter> Dean Willis at mic
[22:16:32] <stpeter> Jonathan Rosenberg next in line
[22:16:36] <Dan York> FYI - The Jabber scribe, Dan Burnett (burn) has been disconnected and is working to re-establish his connectivity
[22:16:40] simonapironti joins the room
[22:16:43] <Ralph GIles> richard.barnes: 100-200, I'd guess. hard to count from here
[22:16:51] <Simon Romano> @richard: I'm remote
[22:17:17] burn leaves the room
[22:17:19] <richard.barnes> Ralph: i meant size(jabber) - size(jabber && room)
[22:17:19] <Dan York> stpeter: if you could continue entering names, burn would appreciate it.
[22:18:28] stpeter leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[22:18:30] <Christopher Webber> MIC: Much of the conversation around "big guys" vs "little guys" centered around things like app stores and etc, but it's felt like this conversation has been dismissive of FOSS projects and how significant those concerns are.  The "well you're a small player, you just have X number of downloads before it affects you"... I'm running a free software project related to transcoding video, and we have unlimited distribution.  It's very unfortunate that this "free software distributions are an interesting edge case", but that's not true, and it doesn't really put in scope those of us who are free software projects that may want to allow for linking against something that's not a specific binary implementation till the end of time, or which can't.
[22:18:31] stpeter joins the room
[22:18:34] <stpeter> heh
[22:18:37] <Jonathan Lennox> Jonathan Rosenberg at the mic.
[22:18:38] <Christopher Webber> (probably too late, but anyway.)
[22:18:38] <stpeter> I got disconnected too
[22:18:44] <Tim Panton> I'm not convinced that apps in the mac store are allowed to dynamically load remote components.
[22:18:46] <Jonathan Lennox> Christopher Webber: mic line was closed.
[22:18:52] burn joins the room
[22:18:55] <stpeter> Robin Raymond at mic
[22:19:04] <Christopher Webber> alright
[22:19:05] <stpeter> (local wireless issue for me)
[22:19:07] <Jonathan Lennox> Robin Raymond (?) at the mic, Jonathan Rosenberg somehow behind him again.
[22:19:21] <burn> test
[22:19:26] <stpeter> yes, Robin Raymond
[22:19:32] <basilgohar> Tim Panton: They've commented that iDevices really can't use this.
[22:19:51] <Tim Panton> I was talking about macs
[22:20:16] <Tim Panton> more os's are requring signed binaries.
[22:20:26] <burn> was having client problems.  Anyone need something spoken at the mic?
[22:20:34] simonapironti leaves the room
[22:21:15] <burn> sounds like Magnus is relaying.  Good!
[22:21:18] ijjarvin leaves the room
[22:21:35] <stpeter> Jonathan Rosenberg back at the mic
[22:21:40] simonapironti joins the room
[22:22:09] <Jack Moffitt> So if we select VP8 Cisco would ship that?
[22:22:16] <gmaxwell> JDR can't ship H264 unless it's mti???
[22:22:17] <Christopher Webber> thanks Magnus for relaying
[22:22:22] <Christopher Webber> much appreciated
[22:22:36] <Matthew Fredrickson> That didn't make sense
[22:22:46] <Lorenzo Miniero> Not quite, I agree
[22:22:54] <basilgohar> gmaxwell: No, they've already stated numerous times that they're OpenH264 no matter what, MTI is not a condition.
[22:23:14] <gmaxwell> Obviously we should have proposed Theora as MTI so there couldn't be any H.264 is older argument. :P
[22:23:16] <Victor Pascual> MIC: if H.264 is not selected as MTI, will cisco terms on h.264 change?
[22:23:18] <stpeter> Randell Jesup at mic
[22:23:36] <basilgohar> gmaxwell: Theora takes away from VP8.  I really wanted to advance it, and Monty did before that.
[22:23:37] <stpeter> Gaelle Martin-Cocher next in line
[22:23:39] <Jack Moffitt> Victor: pretty sure that's in their FAQ
[22:23:41] <Ted> Victor:  they have already answered this a couple of times:  this is not contingent on H.264 being made MTI.
[22:23:46] <burn> victor:  ack, in line
[22:23:57] <Victor Pascual> ok, thanks for the clarification -- no need to relay
[22:24:03] <burn> okay
[22:24:19] <Jonathan Lennox> burn: mic line was closed anyway.
[22:24:41] <basilgohar> Yeah, I think a live stream using rtcweb would be limited.
[22:24:43] <Makkes> Cisco can decide to not provide the binaries anymore any day. This will not happen with VP8.
[22:24:44] <basilgohar> That's not private usage.
[22:24:48] <Jonathan Lennox> JDR says "My lawyer says it's okay" off-mic.
[22:25:24] <stpeter> Gaelle Martin-Cocher at mic
[22:25:28] <stpeter> Bernard Aboba next in line
[22:27:04] m&m leaves the room: Disconnected: closed
[22:27:23] <Magnus Westerlund> For you remote who was wondering how the attendance is, we currently have 150 names on the  bluesheets.
[22:27:37] Chris DeNovellis joins the room
[22:27:47] <stpeter> I never saw the blue sheets on my side of the room
[22:27:53] Cary Bran joins the room
[22:27:59] Lou Quillio joins the room
[22:28:08] <stpeter> Bernard Aboba at the mic
[22:28:17] <stpeter> Eric Rescorla next in line
[22:28:20] <Jonathan Lennox> stpeter: I did, and I'm right behind you — bypassed you, maybe?
[22:28:34] <stpeter> Jonathan Lennox: so it seems
[22:28:44] <ron> what about the "we will form a pool to crush it!" -- oh wait, that didn't work.  that doesn't mitigate the risk?
[22:29:01] <stpeter> Harald Alvestrand next in line
[22:29:03] <basilgohar> ron: *hand-waving*
[22:29:04] m&m joins the room
[22:29:07] <gmaxwell> There are IPR statements on 6184 (the h264 transport stuff).
[22:29:15] <Lorenzo Miniero> Magnus, FYI we have 45 people on Meetecho (and possibly many more in the webinar interface) almost all of them remote
[22:29:17] <gmaxwell> (I dunno anything about them)
[22:29:18] <basilgohar> gmaxwell: OOoohhhh....
[22:29:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> so I guess that makes at leats ~40 remote folks on jabber
[22:29:39] <basilgohar> Lorenzo Miniero: Make sure to count basilgohar === Basil Mohamed Gohar
[22:29:51] wtheaker joins the room
[22:29:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> yep Basil, I did :)
[22:30:00] <basilgohar> Great.
[22:30:00] <Simon Romano> I like EKR better when he writes on the chat! Less bursty...
[22:30:18] <stpeter> Simon Romano: :-)
[22:30:19] <Hadriel Kaplan> Lorenzo: my jabber client claims 95 users in this room
[22:30:30] Zak Rogoff leaves the room
[22:30:37] <Hadriel Kaplan> (granted some of those are also physically at the IETF meeting)
[22:30:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Hadriel I was only mentioning Meetecho users in the jabber room
[22:30:58] <gmaxwell> I wonder if ERK behaves like rate controller graphs presented in RMCAT. If you talk over him does he stop and never recover? :P
[22:31:01] ryweddle leaves the room
[22:31:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> I guess that most of people in the room are in with their Jabber client rather than on Meetecho
[22:31:12] Ryan Weddle joins the room
[22:31:15] Chris DeNovellis leaves the room
[22:31:20] <Hadriel Kaplan> If we get to votes/humming, it will be hard to count folks in this room :(
[22:31:21] <wtheaker> Hello all. I'm taking over for Zak Rogoff on behalf of the Free Software Foundation.
[22:31:31] <Simon Romano> around 45 on Meetecho, with two parallel sessions ongoing...
[22:31:38] <Makkes> I'm on Meetecho AND Jabber because the Meetecho chat is crap
[22:31:47] <Simon Romano> :-)
[22:31:54] <ron> lol
[22:32:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> sorry to read that Makkes ;)
[22:32:18] <Lorenzo Miniero> feel free to drop us a mail and help us improve it BTW
[22:32:19] <basilgohar> Lorenzo Miniero: I think it's more about layout than anything else.
[22:32:20] <Makkes> Lorenzo Miniero, one tool for one job ;)
[22:32:33] <stpeter> Harald Alvestrand at mic
[22:32:45] <stpeter> Jean-Marc Valin next in line
[22:32:50] Lou Quillio leaves the room
[22:33:41] <bear> Lorenzo - have you thought of using stanza.io to make the meetecho chat *use* jabber chat?
[22:33:46] <Makkes> Lorenzo Miniero, one thing that bothered me was that the Meetecho chat "trembles" because of the "xyz is typing..."
[22:34:04] EKR joins the room
[22:34:10] <David Flynn> Makkes, in ability to stop the scrolling is even worse
[22:34:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> there's definitely room for improvement! I was serious, feedback would be great
[22:34:24] <basilgohar> Man, I love this guy.
[22:34:38] <basilgohar> I even love the way he talks...
[22:34:38] Pierre Bonnefoy joins the room
[22:34:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> yep we shoudl make that configurable Makes
[22:34:43] <stpeter> Jean-Marc Valin at mic
[22:34:49] <stpeter> Rui Zhang next in line
[22:34:55] <EKR> Are there any more questions I can answer about what Firefox intends to do?
[22:35:03] <David Flynn> Lorenzo, contact address for comments on Meetecho?
[22:35:22] <Victor Pascual> (kudos to meetecho team for providing remote access)
[22:35:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> bear we chose to go for the XMPP gatewayed via XMPP but socket.io is an option we used in other projectsthough
[22:36:00] <stpeter> +1 to the meetecho team
[22:36:00] <Simon Romano> Feedback is welcome! team@meetecho.com
[22:36:01] <Lorenzo Miniero> info@meetecho.com and you reach us all :)
[22:36:11] <Makkes> EKR, actually yes: About downstream distributions, have you talked to Debian/... guys/gals about their intention to change to "download binary" behaviour?
[22:36:12] <bear> lorenzo - that is why I mentioned stanza.io - it will do xmpp over websocket
[22:36:24] <stpeter> Rui Zhang at mic
[22:36:29] <Ralph GIles> Great news that Apple and Microsoft will ship VP8 if it's MTI!
[22:36:30] <stpeter> someone without a name tag behind Rui
[22:36:41] <gmaxwell> Mozilla's intention now (with cisco's openh264) is that it will ship OpenH264 regardless of mti now.   I'd go to the mic but its closed.
[22:36:44] <Jack Moffitt> Ralph: i think it means they won't ship WebRTC at all.
[22:36:45] <David Flynn> Raplh, "if they implement it"
[22:36:47] george oloo joins the room
[22:36:51] <Ralph GIles> That really would be a new world for codecs developed.
[22:36:52] <Lorenzo Miniero> bear yep, but we're alsousing XMPP for other stuff so it's easier to make a simplified interface in HTTP
[22:36:53] <Jack Moffitt> not that they will ship with the other codec
[22:37:10] <EKR> For clarity, because someone asked me offline: we intend to ship both VP8 and H.264 on every platform. VP8 built-in and H.264 via OpenH264 or platform built-ins depending on the platform situation
[22:37:19] <gmaxwell> (clarify: moz will support h264 and vp8 regardless of mti now)
[22:37:30] <EKR> As gmaxwell says: regardless of the MTI decision
[22:37:52] <bear> lorenzo - ahh, ok. please do ask us for help if you want/need it with any web/xmpp items
[22:37:54] <EKR> Or is it irregardless, I never know
[22:38:08] mnot joins the room
[22:38:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> sure thing, thanks for the info!
[22:38:38] <David Flynn> Makkes, re debian, how is this different from say the flashplugin-nonfree?
[22:38:48] <paravoid> that's not Debian main
[22:38:53] <stpeter> Justin Richer at mic
[22:38:57] simonapironti leaves the room
[22:38:59] <Makkes> David Flynn, it's not in the default distribution
[22:39:00] <stpeter> Tim Terriberry next in line
[22:39:07] <stpeter> or Justin Ridge?
[22:39:25] <richard.barnes> i heard justin rich
[22:39:27] <Makkes> If Mozilla's decision would lead to firefox and firefox-nonfree that would be a real bummer
[22:39:30] <stpeter> must be Justin Ridge
[22:39:33] <paravoid> "Packages in the other archive areas (contrib, non-free) are not considered to be part of the Debian distribution, although we support their use and provide infrastructure for them (such as our bug-tracking system and mailing lists)."
[22:39:53] <stpeter> https://www.ietf.org/registration/ietf88/attendance.py is the Jabber scribe's friend
[22:39:57] <Christopher Webber> definitely not possible for additional h.264 patents to exist beyond those companies that have declared them? ;p
[22:39:57] <Makkes> (though I don't believe it would. Just want to be sure)
[22:40:00] simonapironti joins the room
[22:40:08] <Matthew Fredrickson> Not this argument again.... (submarine patent risk exist for both codecs)
[22:40:28] <Christopher Webber> sigh
[22:40:32] <basilgohar> Google already made a patent grant.
[22:40:40] <ron> Makkes: the Debian firefox maintainer works for mozilla now, I'm pretty sure they've talked to each other, and will continue to :)
[22:40:40] <EKR> Where does this dude work?
[22:40:41] <basilgohar> And the code already *is* BSD licensed.
[22:40:52] <stpeter> EKR: no name tag, no affiliation at https://www.ietf.org/registration/ietf88/attendance.py
[22:40:52] <Steve Kann> @matthew:  there are no new arguments here.
[22:40:54] hildjj joins the room
[22:40:57] <Ted> Appears to be Mitre
[22:41:05] <Ted> if this is Justin Richer
[22:41:09] mapennin joins the room
[22:41:12] <basilgohar> ffvp8 implemented a full decoder.
[22:41:20] Joe Hildebrand joins the room
[22:41:26] <Makkes> ron, great
[22:41:26] <EKR> ffvp8: did they do it without reference to the source?
[22:41:36] <basilgohar> EKR: I am sure they had access to the source.
[22:41:39] <stpeter> Tim Terriberry at mic
[22:41:39] <gmaxwell> ffmpeg: probably disassembled the binary. :P
[22:41:41] <EKR> I mean, I'm not saying I could do a WebRTC stack w/o reading source
[22:41:41] <basilgohar> Since...well...that was the spec.
[22:41:51] <stpeter> Mo Zanaty next (and last) in line
[22:42:25] simonapironti leaves the room
[22:42:31] <basilgohar> Chrome...doesn't have H.264?
[22:42:47] <EKR> Chrome has H.264 for video tag decode, but not for WebRTC
[22:42:58] <gmaxwell> Can someone transcribe the slide into jabber?
[22:42:58] <EKR> (Again this shouldn't be a controversial statement)
[22:43:04] <stpeter> yes
[22:43:10] <basilgohar> No humming isn't useful here, apparently.
[22:43:44] <Jonathan Lennox> Slides are at http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/88/slides/slides-88-rtcweb-6.pptx
[22:43:50] Joe Hildebrand leaves the room
[22:43:52] <Ted> The proposed consensus questions will be of the following form:
1. If you support H.264 as the mandatory to implement codec or are
willing to live with it as the MTI, please raise your hand now.
2. If you support VP8 as the mandatory to implement codec or are
willing to live with it as the MTI, please raise your hand now.
You may indicate support on both questions and we encourage you to do
so if you can live with either, even if you have a preference for one
over the other.
[22:44:14] <mnot> pptx? Really?
[22:44:36] <stpeter> Martin Thomson at mic
[22:44:43] <Ted> If you wish to indicate support from the Jabber, please say "support 1" and/or "support 2".
[22:44:48] Mikhal Shemer joins the room
[22:44:57] <stpeter> Brian Dickson at mic
[22:45:22] Paul Giralt (mobile) joins the room
[22:45:39] Dan Wing leaves the room
[22:45:43] simonapironti joins the room
[22:45:45] <Lorenzo Miniero> Actually still showing a "Testing for objections" slide right now
[22:46:08] <basilgohar> I see consensus
[22:46:20] <stpeter> Consensus Call slide
[22:46:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> yes, we didn't have that specific slide
[22:46:36] <stpeter> he's not asking the questions yet
[22:46:38] <Steve Kann> Anyone taking bets?
[22:46:44] Brian Anderson joins the room
[22:46:52] <Makkes> support 2
[22:47:04] <basilgohar> 1 = H.264, 2 = VP8
[22:47:09] loreto.salvatore joins the room
[22:47:43] <Pierre Bonnefoy> What if we support both ?
[22:47:45] <EKR> H.268?
[22:47:50] <EKR> Pierre: then vote twice
[22:47:50] <greg-g> :)
[22:47:56] <Randall Gellens> if you support both say both 1 and 2
[22:47:58] <Makkes> H.2612?
[22:47:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> if you support both, just vote for both ;)
[22:47:59] Leon Geyser joins the room
[22:48:06] Hervé joins the room
[22:48:19] <Matthew Fredrickson> In the same comment
[22:48:23] Justin Uberti joins the room
[22:48:25] <stpeter> Keith Drage at mic
[22:48:28] <Matthew Fredrickson> please
[22:48:37] <MattJ> Just to clarify: the vote is for MTI specifically?
[22:48:41] Jan Linden leaves the room
[22:48:46] <basilgohar> This vote was specified a long time ago, unfortunately.
[22:48:52] <stpeter> MattJ: yes (hi!)
[22:49:10] <MattJ> Thanks, and hi :)
[22:49:29] <gmaxwell> the world changed, both sounds a lot more reasonable to some as of last week... but oh well
[22:49:38] <stpeter> ok, ready!
[22:49:47] <David Flynn> support 1 (H.264)
[22:49:48] <Giri Mandyam> support 1
[22:49:49] <bear> support 1
[22:49:50] <Makkes> support 2
[22:49:51] <Jeremy Laurenson> Support 1
[22:49:51] <Wouter Devinck> support 1
[22:49:51] <Adrian Grange> support 2
[22:49:52] <Vince Grove> support 1
[22:49:53] <hildjj> support 1
[22:49:55] <Neil Stratford> support 2
[22:49:55] <Matthew Fredrickson> support 2
[22:49:57] <Simon Romano> support 2 (VP8)
[22:49:58] <Tim Panton> support 2
[22:50:00] <Paul Giralt (mobile)> Support 1
[22:50:00] <Gustavo Garcia> support 2
[22:50:01] <Peter Dunkley> support 2
[22:50:01] <Steve Kann> support 2
[22:50:02] <beaver> support1
[22:50:03] <ron> support 2
[22:50:04] <Tobia Castaldi> support 2
[22:50:04] <katwalsh> support 2 (VP8)
[22:50:05] <Victor Pascual> support 2
[22:50:05] <Mark Harris> support 2
[22:50:08] <Jeremy Geras> support 2
[22:50:08] <wtheaker> support 2 (VP8)
[22:50:09] <Christopher Webber> support 2
[22:50:15] <Elias Perez-Carrera> Support 2
[22:50:21] <Mikhal Shemer> support2
[22:50:22] <basilgohar> Support 2 (VP8)
[22:50:23] <bear> support 2
[22:50:23] <Mike Linksvayer> support 2
[22:50:24] <Brian Anderson> support 2
[22:50:25] <greg-g> support 2
[22:50:25] <mslehto> support 2
[22:50:28] <Leon Geyser> support 2
[22:50:36] <Pierre Bonnefoy> support 2
[22:50:45] <paravoid> support 2
[22:50:45] <Simon Perreault> support 2
[22:50:45] EKR leaves the room
[22:50:45] <beaver> support 1:-)
[22:50:49] <MattJ> support 2
[22:50:50] <Ralph GIles> rough
[22:51:16] <Christopher Webber> remote participation seems heavily slanted to 2
[22:51:20] <Simon Romano> VP 8 wins on Jabber
[22:51:24] <Matthew Fredrickson> if that
[22:51:29] <basilgohar> We won the Internet!
[22:51:34] <Christopher Webber> indeed
[22:51:35] Jan joins the room
[22:51:56] <basilgohar> So, those that actually use the Internet, by all data, support option #2, VP8.
[22:51:57] <Thomas Davies> support 1
[22:52:07] <gmaxwell> Secret slides!
[22:52:09] Cullen Jennings leaves the room
[22:52:12] <gmaxwell> now we use a coinflip
[22:52:14] <greg-g> "(02:51:56 PM) basilgohar: So, those that actually use the Internet, by all data, support option #2, VP8."  this
[22:52:23] <Makkes> 10 vs. 30 on Jabber
[22:52:27] <MattJ> :)
[22:52:31] simonapironti leaves the room
[22:52:35] <Christopher Webber> 75% towards VP8
[22:52:36] <Simon Romano> We're the VP8ers
[22:52:38] <Christopher Webber> on jabber
[22:52:43] <David Flynn> can we have the new slides?
[22:52:49] <Randall Gellens> You think the people in the room don't use the Internet ??
[22:52:49] <Steve Kann> What was on that slide?
[22:52:53] <Lorenzo Miniero> "If you're seeing this slide... we're not done"
[22:52:53] <basilgohar> So, did ASCII win?
[22:52:54] Joe Hildebrand joins the room
[22:52:55] <Neil Stratford> We are not getting the slides on meetecho
[22:52:59] <Simon Romano> What slides are they showing?
[22:53:01] <stpeter> the slide said "we're not done:
[22:53:06] <Simon Romano> Stop 'em!
[22:53:06] <gmaxwell> BRING ON THE COINFLIP
[22:53:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> Yes Neil, sorry, we don't have this deck
[22:53:06] EKR joins the room
[22:53:06] <wseltzer@jabber.org> slide 1 was "Yay, we're almost done"
[22:53:10] <stpeter> Getting to a Decision — RFC 3929
[22:53:14] <Simon Romano> Wanna see the slides!
[22:53:16] Matt Penning joins the room
[22:53:18] mnot leaves the room
[22:53:24] <stpeter> Next steps...
[22:53:25] <Christopher Webber> what was the physical room like?
[22:53:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> Ted said they were not on the materials
[22:53:32] <Christopher Webber> as in terms of hands
[22:53:32] <Matthew Fredrickson> A dual!
[22:53:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> Discussing Next Steps now
[22:53:39] <Christopher Webber> because the internet room was very clear
[22:53:39] <stpeter> decide method (chairs propose method) and discuss on list
[22:53:42] <Christopher Webber> by a landslide
[22:53:42] sarikaya2012 leaves the room
[22:53:46] <gmaxwell> cwebber:  50% h264, somewhat less— they said 30% vp8 (though I think 30% is a little low)
[22:53:47] <stpeter> then last call on the method
[22:53:49] <basilgohar> Christopher Webber: It was almost split evenly, slightly higher for H.264 I think?
[22:53:49] <Justin Uberti> seriously, a coinflip between harald and jonathan
[22:53:56] <stpeter> see RFC 3939 for external review team method
[22:53:59] <Justin Uberti> 30% not counting jabber.
[22:54:30] <stpeter> Stephan Wenger at mic
[22:54:31] <Simon Romano> @lorenzo:can you point your camera towards the screen?
[22:54:37] <Lorenzo Miniero> ok
[22:54:51] Johann Koenig leaves the room
[22:55:01] loreto.salvatore leaves the room
[22:55:06] EKR leaves the room
[22:55:07] <stpeter> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3929
[22:55:17] <stpeter> I think we should use RFC 3920 rules instead ;-)
[22:55:32] <Lorenzo Miniero> hardly visible I'm afraid...
[22:55:48] <Dan York> stpeter: cute!
[22:56:05] <Matthew Fredrickson> What about those of us here in the chat room?
[22:56:06] <Steve Kann> rfc1149?
[22:56:07] <Simon Romano> Great!
[22:56:11] <Victor Pascual> does this alternative process include both, none or older codecs?
[22:56:21] Paul Giralt (mobile) leaves the room
[22:56:25] <Simon Perreault> coin flip worked great in softwire
[22:56:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> Victor I think it's just H.264 and VP8 now
[22:56:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> yep coin flip or something like that...
[22:57:01] burn leaves the room
[22:57:11] Guillaume Leclanche joins the room
[22:57:30] mcmanus leaves the room
[22:57:32] <Victor Pascual> (so in the room was 50/50?)
[22:57:34] <Simon Romano> Are they serious?
[22:57:41] <richard.barnes> who serious?
[22:57:44] simonapironti joins the room
[22:57:48] <Dan York> Victor Pascual: Yes... there was no clear consensus
[22:57:48] <stpeter> Eric Rescorla at mic
[22:57:53] <ron> how many people in the room have never contributed on the list?
[22:58:09] Randall Gellens leaves the room
[22:58:12] <stpeter> Jeremy Fuller at mic
[22:58:18] <Lorenzo Miniero> ron: many new faces, but who am I to tell...
[22:58:28] Dan Wing joins the room
[22:58:45] Hyong Jong Paik leaves the room
[22:58:55] RjS leaves the room
[22:58:57] Hadriel Kaplan leaves the room
[22:59:03] m&m leaves the room
[22:59:04] <Matthew Fredrickson> How do we get slides in meetecho?
[22:59:04] loreto.salvatore joins the room
[22:59:16] Steve Kann leaves the room
[22:59:27] <katwalsh> I don't think I've spoken on the list (mostly because my position has been pretty well-presented by others).
[22:59:38] <basilgohar> katwalsh: But more voices are useful, generally.
[22:59:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Matthew if they're not on the materials we can't put them in
[22:59:43] loreto.salvatore leaves the room
[22:59:49] <Pierre Bonnefoy> The problem is not to know if there should be an MTI, but is it possible to get a consensus over an MTI
[23:00:00] <Pierre Bonnefoy> and I don't think it is possible
[23:00:01] fippo joins the room
[23:00:02] <basilgohar> Everyone's perspective usually has it's own unique flavor.
[23:00:06] <stpeter> Harald Alvestrand at mic
[23:00:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> we didn't get them via mail either, sorry...
[23:00:08] <hildjj> how many people raised their hand for both?
[23:00:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> It's a giant "Anyone want to change their mind?" slide right now
[23:00:32] Elias Perez-Carrera leaves the room
[23:00:32] Dan Wing leaves the room
[23:00:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> I'm sure more info will follow on the list
[23:00:45] paravoid leaves the room
[23:00:46] <John Leslie> +1 Harald
[23:00:51] <gmaxwell> +1 Harald indeed
[23:00:55] <negge> +1 Harald
[23:00:56] <Simon Romano> +1 from me too
[23:01:02] paravoid joins the room
[23:01:05] <stpeter> Lorenzo Miniero: indeed, much discussion will happen on the list
[23:01:35] <stpeter> RFC 3929 is indeed Experimental, not BCP
[23:01:41] Guillaume Leclanche leaves the room
[23:02:07] <gmaxwell> I thought the whole premise of alt consensus is that it was supposed to be a threat more than something that actually gets used. :P
[23:02:24] <Makkes> the atomic bomb of decision making
[23:02:35] <basilgohar> The so-called "nuclear option"?
[23:03:13] <ron> I thought the question of rough consensus was whether there was real unaddressed objections?
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[23:04:04] <resnick> @ron: We are working to coming to rough consensus on that point. :-)
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[23:04:45] <Simon Romano> Good night from Italy, guys ;-)
[23:04:48] Makkes leaves the room: offline
[23:04:52] <Lorenzo Miniero> wow that was intense... recordings will be soon made available on http://ietf88.conf.meetecho.com
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[23:04:59] <Alessandro Amirante> Bye everybody!
[23:05:07] <Lorenzo Miniero> good night Simon ;)
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[23:05:09] <Simon Romano> See you soon.
[23:05:12] <Leon Geyser> bye
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[23:05:16] <beaver> bye
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[23:05:23] <Matthew Fredrickson> Au revoir
[23:05:27] tsuichi leaves the room
[23:05:27] <David Flynn> Lorenzo, thank you for your services again
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[23:05:35] <Matthew Fredrickson> Yes, thanks Lorenzo
[23:05:35] <jgunn> bye
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[23:05:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> you're welcome David!
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[23:05:45] <Simon Romano> Grazei, MArio.
[23:05:46] <Lorenzo Miniero> thank you all :)
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