IETF
rtcweb@jabber.ietf.org
Friday, November 14, 2014< ^ >
martin.thomson has set the subject to: RTCWEB WG http://tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/agenda
Room Configuration
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[02:38:41] <jlcJohn> Meetecho not working
[02:39:28] <jlcJohn> "Unhandled IETF meeting session"
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[02:42:19] <Meetecho> working on that John
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[02:43:03] <jesup> Is there a problem with Meetecho?  I got "Unhandled IETF meeting"
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[02:43:36] <jesup> and now it's working
[02:43:36] <Meetecho> yes it's a configuration issue, we're fixing it
[02:43:43] <Meetecho> we haven't started here yet though
[02:44:13] <jlcJohn> Room audio at http://ietf91streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf913.m3u
[02:44:25] <jesup> though video is having the same problems as Tuesday(?)
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[02:44:32] <jesup> or was it monday
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[02:45:03] <Meetecho> working now: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf91/rtcweb_II
[02:45:06] <Meetecho> sorry for the issue
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[02:48:10] <mary.h.barnes> Chairs: Day 2 agenda
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[02:49:16] <mary.h.barnes> Justin presenting FEC for WebRTC
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[02:51:31] <jesup> Video is unusable from here, FYI
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[02:52:00] <Ted.H> Sorry to here that.  We're on the "Audio" slide in the FEC presentation.
[02:52:04] <jlcJohn> Video better than usual here...
[02:52:06] <Ted.H> er, "hear that"
[02:52:10] <Jonathan Lennox> jesup: mail ietf-team@meetecho.com for meetecho tech support
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[02:52:56] <Meetecho> jesup: what's not working?
[02:53:18] <tony hansen> no video for me either
[02:53:34] <tony hansen> am restarting session
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[02:54:42] <tony hansen> restarting fixed video streams
[02:54:46] <DanYork> I was able to get into Meetecho using this link - http://www.meetecho.com/ietf91/rtcweb_II
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[02:55:14] <Meetecho> Dan York: yep there was an issue with configuration before the session start which was fixed eventually
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[02:55:39] <jesup> restarting ....
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[02:56:20] <jesup> Ok, same as a few days ago.  Initial iframe is ok, rapidly becomes video hash (un-recovered packet loss).
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[02:56:41] <mary.h.barnes> Bernard ABoba at mic
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[02:57:03] <jlcJohn> Interestingly, I'm not seeing that heavy packet loss this session...
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[02:58:03] <Meetecho> jesup: sorry about this, don't really know where this is coming from
[02:58:05] <mary.h.barnes> Adam presenting rtcweb video requirements
[02:58:07] <Meetecho> we do handle NACKs
[02:58:14] <mary.h.barnes> Keith Drage at mic
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[03:00:18] <jlcJohn> Aha! I'm getting heavy packet loss again :^(
[03:00:23] <tony hansen> things blanked out for a bit, video returned but now I've lost audio
[03:00:27] <jesup> Once in a while (few minutes) I'll see an iframe and a second or two of pframes, then it degrades rapidly to hash.  Tried in Chrome then, same problem. HAven't tried it again today
[03:00:35] <jesup> I lost video, kept audio
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[03:01:30] <tony hansen> restarting brought back both video and audio again
[03:01:58] <Ted.H> We're trying to eliminate local bandwidth use, in case the bottleneck is in the room.
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[03:02:14] <tony hansen> (wish the page remembered the WG I'm in and my name/company each time. Very annoying when restarting.)
[03:02:33] <Meetecho> feedback noted :)
[03:02:44] <mary.h.barnes> Justin at mic
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[03:03:02] <Meetecho> Ted.H: shouldn't be the issue, the streams look fine to me (I'm monitoring) and from our monitor in the NOC
[03:03:17] <mary.h.barnes> Jonathan Lennox at mic
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[03:04:27] <mary.h.barnes> Justin at mic
[03:04:40] <mary.h.barnes> Harald at mic
[03:05:01] <mary.h.barnes> Justin talking
[03:05:08] <jesup> mic: Must send if not non-rotated, orientation should persist without the extension.  Retransmit orientation periodically to deal with packet loss.
[03:05:09] <Meetecho> anyway, in case slides keep breaking heavily, try the webinar mode as well, suboptimal but does the job: http://conf.meetecho.com/video?s=coral-3&r=rtcweb&c=8891131
[03:05:24] <jesup> mic: I don't know of any such extension myself
[03:05:33] <mary.h.barnes> i’ll relay
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[03:05:54] <mary.h.barnes> mo talking
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[03:06:27] <tony hansen> just lost audio again
[03:06:44] <mary.h.barnes> STephan wenger
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[03:06:54] <Meetecho> tony hansen: try the link I gave above, it has audio too
[03:07:03] <mary.h.barnes> Justin at mic
[03:07:05] <Jonathan Lennox> Indication of screen vs. content is RFC 4796.
[03:07:12] <Jonathan Lennox> Er screen vs. live
[03:07:17] <jesup> s/Must send if non-rotated/Must send if rotated/ of course
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[03:07:31] <Jonathan Lennox> Tho has to be interpreted.
[03:07:44] <mary.h.barnes> Justin talking
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[03:07:57] <mary.h.barnes> Randall - do you want me to relay the latter?
[03:08:13] <jesup> no, thanks
[03:08:15] <mary.h.barnes> Adam on issue 4.
[03:09:02] <jesup> everyone understood anyways.  And apparently this is already handled in the spec
[03:09:22] <mary.h.barnes> Bernard talking
[03:10:00] <mary.h.barnes> Issue 6 - our favorite - MTI video codec
[03:10:16] <mary.h.barnes> Martin Thomson speaking
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[03:11:23] <resnick> Minions!
[03:11:42] <mary.h.barnes> @Pete - yes.  But we don’t have any in this room.  Can you find us some ;)
[03:12:10] <mary.h.barnes> Adam going over definitions
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[03:12:43] <tony hansen> and, lost audio again!
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[03:13:25] <mary.h.barnes> Adam summarizing plan (as posted on list).
[03:13:30] <Meetecho> tony hansen: try RTSP rtsp://coral-3.conf.meetecho.com/coral-3.sdp or webinar mode http://conf.meetecho.com/video?s=coral-3&r=rtcweb&c=8891131
[03:14:19] EKR joins the room
[03:14:44] <mary.h.barnes> Keith drage at mic
[03:15:38] <mary.h.barnes> Andrew allen
[03:16:42] <mary.h.barnes> Michael Ramalho at mic
[03:17:27] <mary.h.barnes> Stephan Wenger at mic
[03:17:40] <mary.h.barnes> oops - sorry hit return too soon - Michael still talking
[03:18:07] <mary.h.barnes> Now Stephan
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[03:19:12] <resnick> This document will go through IETF Last Call. That's the IETF assenting to the statement.
[03:19:54] <mary.h.barnes> Keith again
[03:20:06] <hta> Cryptographic Freedom Day. I remember that one.
[03:20:14] <EKR> I thought we were doing clarifying questions
[03:20:36] <resnick> I have a plate that Adam can throw.
[03:20:48] <EKR> Indeed
[03:21:35] <Jonathan Lennox> IETF Jeopardy: you must phrase your objection in the form of a clarifying question.
[03:21:50] <resnick> The latter sentence doesn't actually say that the eventual one codec needs to be one of those two.
[03:22:10] <mary.h.barnes> Shijun Sun speaking
[03:24:34] <tony hansen> prescriptive rather than proscriptive
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[03:25:11] <mary.h.barnes> Andrew Allen at mic
[03:26:21] <mary.h.barnes> Stephan
[03:27:02] <mary.h.barnes> Jeremy Fuller at mic
[03:27:55] <mary.h.barnes> Harald at mic
[03:28:27] <mary.h.barnes> Stuart Cheshire at mic
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[03:29:12] <mary.h.barnes> Keith Drage (yet again)
[03:29:34] <mary.h.barnes> Ross Finlayson
[03:31:49] <mary.h.barnes> Jonathan Rosenberg presenting (has a cutesy quote on the screen)
[03:34:44] <Simo Romano> To all remotes: this guy wanders about the whole room! Cannot track him anymore :-)
[03:34:51] Emil Ivov joins the room
[03:35:17] <mary.h.barnes> Do you want us to tell him to stop that.  I’m happy to do that ;)
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[03:35:29] <Simo Romano> Nope...let him do some sport!
[03:35:55] <mary.h.barnes> :)
[03:36:21] <DanYork> :-)
[03:36:44] <mary.h.barnes> Harald now presenting.
[03:37:00] <mary.h.barnes> ...As seen from a Google viewpoint
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[03:38:39] <Simo Romano> One thing is sure: google beats Cisco as far as speaker's attitude towards the webcam ;-)
[03:39:08] <mary.h.barnes> :)
[03:39:26] <mary.h.barnes> Harald doesn’t have the talk show host moves down.
[03:39:42] <mary.h.barnes> Andrew Allen at the mic
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[03:42:11] <mary.h.barnes> Down to business.
[03:42:34] stpeter joins the room
[03:43:07] <mary.h.barnes> Co-chairs are leaving stage.  Sean is the only chair during this call for consensus.
[03:43:22] <Jonathan Lennox> I notice that the Novel plan is in the National Novel Writing Month.  Coincidence?  (I think so!)
[03:43:29] <mary.h.barnes> Process slide
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[03:43:56] <mary.h.barnes> Does anyone in jabber room want to virtually stand?
[03:44:01] <Emil Ivov> +1
[03:44:04] <jesup> I virtually stand
[03:44:07] <Maire Reavy> I stand
[03:44:08] <gaelle martincocher> +1
[03:44:12] <Neil Stratford> standing
[03:44:14] <DanYork> +1
[03:44:20] <stpeter> me too
[03:44:23] <tony hansen> standing
[03:44:38] jesup virtually sits ;-)
[03:44:43] <Simo Romano> :-)
[03:44:46] <mary.h.barnes> Most in room participating in consensus call.
[03:44:55] <mary.h.barnes> Yes, you can all virtually sit down ;)
[03:45:16] <mary.h.barnes> Adam speaking at mic
[03:45:37] <mary.h.barnes> Bernard at mic
[03:45:57] <mary.h.barnes> Andrew allen at mic
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[03:47:36] <mary.h.barnes> Bernard aboba at mic
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[03:50:29] <resnick> Can someone summarize Bernard's point 1?
[03:50:51] <hta> "lawyers are scared of open court cases"?
[03:51:08] <resnick> And therefore.....?
[03:52:12] <jesup> mic: Mobile devices H.264 implementations frequently (usually even) will not work for interactive video communicaiton.  Maybe they'll get there reliably, but even decode has been a huge problem on Android and Windows for Mozilla
[03:52:24] kenji tanaka joins the room
[03:52:47] <jesup> mic: I hope the get there.  THey aren't there yet.  They likely won't be for at least years.
[03:53:13] <Meetecho> jesup: Mary got in line for you
[03:53:20] <jesup> thanks
[03:53:21] Alissa Cooper joins the room
[03:53:43] <resnick> Number of people doesn't matter. It's issues.
[03:53:55] <mary.h.barnes> that is andrew allen right now
[03:54:13] Mark Harris leaves the room
[03:54:22] <stpeter> resnick: 7282 FTW
[03:54:47] <jesup> mic: and we have a huge number of desktp platforms that won't support it in the OS for quite some time.  Something like 20% of Mac Firefox users are on 10.6....  and lots still in XP (yes, really)
[03:54:48] <resnick> So Bernard's (and Andrew's) point is "We don't need an MTI."?
[03:55:01] <mary.h.barnes> yes
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[03:55:15] <mary.h.barnes> because they want 264
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[03:56:04] <Brian Carpenter> Make them both SHOULD and the problem you're discussing goes away and the market decides anyway
[03:56:06] <mary.h.barnes> adam at mic
[03:56:17] <mary.h.barnes> randall is next
[03:56:24] <jesup> thx
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[03:57:46] <mary.h.barnes> Ted Hardie (from the floor) at mic
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[03:58:19] <rbarnes > ted hardie and cullen jennings have both removed their chair hats and will be speaking from the floor for the remainder of this debate
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[03:59:14] <mary.h.barnes> Shijin at the mic
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[04:00:00] <mary.h.barnes> Justin uberti at mic  
[04:00:19] <resnick> Has anyone quantified the cost of the dual implementation?
[04:00:57] <mary.h.barnes> @ Pete: not as far as I know.
[04:01:05] <mary.h.barnes> Mo zanaty at mic
[04:01:08] <rbarnes > resnick: that doesn't really seem germane?
[04:01:21] <mary.h.barnes> Mo refers to Randall’s comments
[04:01:48] <resnick> I thought Bernard/Andrew/Shijin were arguing that the cost of dual implementation is too high. Did I misunderstand that?
[04:02:12] <rbarnes > resnick: other people are arguing that it is acceptable
[04:02:22] <mary.h.barnes> That seemed to be the basis of what they were saying
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[04:02:34] <Jonathan Lennox> resnick: No, they're arguing the IPR liability risk of VP8 is too high.  It's not technical costs, mostly.
[04:02:34] <resnick> (Lest anyone think there's an embedded opinion in what I'm saying: There's not. I'm truly trying to understand the arguments.)
[04:02:57] <mary.h.barnes> @pete: it’s very complicated really
[04:03:02] <mary.h.barnes> Bernard Aboba at mic
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[04:03:04] kenji  tanaka joins the room
[04:03:06] <resnick> @jonathan: Ah, that's not what I understood. That makes more sense.
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[04:04:08] <DanYork> Right - the apps are in their own silos.
[04:04:41] <DanYork> Er... the *mobile* apps are in their own silos
[04:04:56] <mary.h.barnes> Andrew Allen at mic
[04:05:26] <mary.h.barnes> Ekr at mic
[04:05:33] <mary.h.barnes> oops - NOT eke yet
[04:05:50] <mary.h.barnes> ekr...maybe jonathan needs to takeover as jabber scribe ;)
[04:06:02] <lminiero> what I'm hearing is "mandate what you want, we'll just do H.264 anyway", so what are we talking about?
[04:06:19] <Jonathan Lennox> mary: I usually don't bother to say who's at the mic, so you're already ahead of me. :-)
[04:06:38] <mary.h.barnes> I like to say whose at mic because when I participate remotely I find that really helps.
[04:06:52] Theo Zourzouvillys joins the room
[04:06:53] <stpeter> mary.h.barnes: yes, thank you!!!
[04:06:58] <jack> Why can't these people who can't be here be in jabber?
[04:07:04] <jack> I mean, stpeter found his way!
[04:07:12] <Jonathan Lennox> No good jabber clients for Blackberry? :-)
[04:07:14] <gaelle martincocher> i am
[04:07:24] rbarnes waves at stpeter
[04:07:27] <mary.h.barnes> EKR is at mic
[04:07:34] <jack> @jonathan: haha!
[04:08:49] <DanYork> 3+ years...
[04:09:34] rbarnes leaves the room
[04:09:37] <yusuke k> test
[04:10:00] <resnick> Your test was successful.
[04:10:23] <jesup> mic: To mo's comment, and Bernard: I agree HW support *can* and does work.  And I hope we get to where all shipping (and most deployed) devices have reliable realtime HW codec support.  That isn't today.  That isn't next year.  maybe in the years after that.  All of that said... While I personally prefer VP8 as a sole choice, I can stomach the novel compromise.  To Andrew's comment: I think decode both, encode one is as good as encode/decode both, IF and only if you demand all devices decode both, which may require more from devices than this proposal does.   I do want to move forward and end this.  We did discuss that idea before, I even was positive about it, but it didn't get much support.
[04:10:35] <mary.h.barnes> Greg maxwell at mic.
[04:10:42] <mary.h.barnes> I’ll get in queue for you.
[04:10:51] <jesup> thx
[04:11:15] <mary.h.barnes> Harald
[04:11:22] <mary.h.barnes> It is a long queue.  You are after fluffy
[04:11:38] <jesup> I'm not surprised it's long... ;-)
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[04:11:58] <resnick> queue is 7
[04:12:17] <jack> To add to ekr's numbers, Firefox is 6,485,558 SLOC
[04:12:44] <mary.h.barnes> Justin at mic
[04:13:39] <mary.h.barnes> queue is now 9.  You are in position 6
[04:13:50] <mary.h.barnes> adam at mic
[04:14:53] <mary.h.barnes> JDR at mic
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[04:17:24] <mary.h.barnes> OMG.  Jonathan said we should vote!!!
[04:17:29] <mary.h.barnes> Sean at mic
[04:17:43] <mary.h.barnes> fluffy at mic
[04:17:44] <resnick> Neither humming nor voting is acceptable. Jonathan needs to go read RFC 7282!
[04:17:56] <mary.h.barnes> He’s been out in the real world too long.  
[04:18:01] <mary.h.barnes> We should remove his blue dot.
[04:18:11] <resnick> Tear it from his chest.
[04:18:14] <rbarnes > resnick: we need interpretive dance?
[04:18:39] <resnick> We need to hear if there are new issues. If we run out of those, we're done. No humming or voting or dancing required.
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[04:19:25] <stpeter> I can't agree with JDR that web apps will proliferate once we solve this issue - the main blocker is that we don't have WebRTC support in IE or Safari, and Firefox is far enough behind in their implementation (no knock on the Mozilla team) that it is difficult to make interoperable applications right now
[04:19:49] <rbarnes > stpeter: mic?
[04:20:24] <mary.h.barnes> Monty Montgomery has clarifying question at mic
[04:21:06] <mary.h.barnes> Bernard aboba at mic
[04:21:19] <resnick> And Monty needs a kidney.
[04:21:39] <mary.h.barnes> Kazimier Kosmov (sp?)
[04:21:46] <stpeter> to Monty's point, it's unclear whether the RTCWEB WG will still be around to revisit any decision that's made now
[04:21:54] <mary.h.barnes> Bernard again.
[04:21:59] Dan York leaves the room
[04:22:13] <mary.h.barnes> peter - do you want your comments to go to the mic?
[04:22:26] <rbarnes > stpete: we can make a new one if we need it
[04:22:35] <rbarnes > s/stpete/stpeter/
[04:22:44] <stpeter> mary.h.barnes: maybe, let me rephrase
[04:22:52] Karen O'Donoghue leaves the room
[04:22:53] <mary.h.barnes> xavier marjou at mic
[04:24:36] <mary.h.barnes> mo zanaty at mic
[04:25:21] Justin Uberti joins the room
[04:26:12] <mary.h.barnes> andrew allen at mic
[04:26:18] <resnick> I am over on this side of the room specifically because there is no mic. If there is a vote (or a hum that sounds like a vote), I can run across the room. It ain't numbers. If Sean has heard all of the objections and thinks they've been addressed, we're done.
[04:26:20] Aswath Rao joins the room
[04:26:21] <jesup> mo++
[04:26:32] Theo Zourzouvillys leaves the room
[04:27:29] Justin Uberti leaves the room
[04:27:52] <resnick> "Representing"?????
[04:27:58] <stpeter> MIC: I disagree with Dr. Rosenberg that web apps will proliferate once we solve the MTI video codec issue. In my experience, the main blocker is the state of WebRTC implementation in the browsers. Primarily, we don't have WebRTC support in IE and Safari. Secondarily, some features are only in Chrome and not yet in Firefox (although they're on the way). Web apps are working quite well with VP8 right now and app developers haven't been held back by the lack of an MTI video codec.
[04:28:05] Mark Harris leaves the room
[04:28:24] Mark Harris joins the room
[04:28:33] <mary.h.barnes> harald at the mic
[04:28:37] <jesup> mic: Andrew's colleague's proposal was in the list of options we all surveyed many months ago.  It did poorly.
[04:28:50] Karen O'Donoghue joins the room
[04:28:52] <mary.h.barnes> peter u r next.
[04:29:10] Aswath Rao leaves the room
[04:29:14] <mary.h.barnes> then randall while I’m at the mic
[04:29:43] <mary.h.barnes> stephan wenger
[04:29:44] <EKR> we need to invent some sort of auto-jabber-relay
[04:30:10] <hildjj> ekr: we could, but it would require webrtc.
[04:30:16] <gmaxwell> I thought I was adequately clear: Open source is _much_ wider than webrtc user-agents and web-rtc devices, and many of the them are much less able to deal with the complexities of this than the useragents/devices. Do I really need to hit the mic again just to repeat what I already said?
[04:30:30] Karen O'Donoghue leaves the room
[04:31:53] <lminiero> gmaxwell: +1000
[04:31:57] <unlord> gmaxwell: you might
[04:32:09] <mary.h.barnes> Dan York at mic
[04:32:21] <jack> gmaxwell: it's easy to explain in terms of JDR's table slide.
[04:32:30] <jack> 264 only doesn't help most of those people.
[04:33:12] <lminiero> no, a "just h264" doesn't just not help them, it removes them from the table
[04:33:14] unlord leaves the room
[04:33:29] negge joins the room
[04:33:33] <jack> lminiero: agreed
[04:33:39] <mary.h.barnes> Justin uberti at mic
[04:34:28] Karen O'Donoghue joins the room
[04:34:33] <mary.h.barnes> ekr at mic
[04:34:39] <jack> plugins for everyone!
[04:34:56] <mary.h.barnes> ekr got interrupted.
[04:35:02] <rbarnes > who is at the mic?
[04:35:05] <mary.h.barnes> Kaz (apple guy) at mic
[04:35:08] Adam Roach joins the room
[04:35:22] <mary.h.barnes> And Kaz is just all I could get of the name
[04:35:22] <Emil Ivov> Krasimir Koralov
[04:35:30] <mary.h.barnes> Ekr at the mic
[04:35:55] <jesup> Sale on torches in the lobby :-)
[04:36:03] Justin Uberti joins the room
[04:36:15] Dan Wing leaves the room
[04:36:41] EKR leaves the room
[04:37:05] <mary.h.barnes> andrew allen at mic
[04:37:14] EKR joins the room
[04:37:32] <hta> and of course patents.iec.ch was offline just now....
[04:37:57] <jack> so 3gpp will require blackberry to ship vp8? YAY!
[04:38:38] <EKR> having a lot of trouble understanding the downside here.
[04:39:08] <jack> so many words!
[04:39:14] Justin Uberti leaves the room
[04:39:17] <gaelle martincocher> the downside is that if 3GPP refers to the RFC, it means product needs to comply
[04:39:25] <gaelle martincocher> compliance test is a pretty long process
[04:39:39] <gaelle martincocher> hence some compagny may not be able to comply and ship product
[04:39:48] <mary.h.barnes> Greg Maxwell at mic
[04:40:27] <mary.h.barnes> Jeremy fuller at mic
[04:41:04] <jack> gaelle: how is that different that H.264 only? Plenty of people can't ship that. This proposal inconveniences everyone.
[04:41:20] <mary.h.barnes> Cullen jennings (as an individual) at mic
[04:41:33] <gaelle martincocher> There is a difference between being a WebRTC compatible endpoint
[04:41:37] <gaelle martincocher> and having to comply
[04:42:08] <gaelle martincocher> in the IMS / 3GPP context, one has to comply to a spec to ship/sale product
[04:42:09] <mary.h.barnes> Ted Hardie (as an individual) at mic
[04:42:20] Brian Carpenter leaves the room: offline
[04:42:24] <rbarnes > ted can be part of my ohana
[04:42:31] <gaelle martincocher> i don't think there is an equivalent if one just implement RFCs say in the web world
[04:42:56] Justin Uberti joins the room
[04:42:56] <mary.h.barnes> But, Ted’s ohana is a chair’s ohana and wasn’t presented as an individual’s ohana
[04:43:31] <mary.h.barnes> Bernard Aboba at mic
[04:43:32] <DanYork> +1 to Ted's comment
[04:43:51] <mary.h.barnes> Bernard is the end of the mic line
[04:44:15] <jesup> "No one gets left behind" ;-)
[04:44:25] Marc Abrams joins the room
[04:44:35] <tony hansen> time check: 26 minutes and counting down
[04:44:44] <DanYork> There is incredible potential with WebRTC to vastly open up a richer world of communications to so many more people... we need to unleash that potential.
[04:44:49] <rbarnes > tony hansen: mic lines have been cut, we'll be wrapping up soon
[04:45:16] <DanYork> Interpretive dance time...
[04:45:31] Adam Roach leaves the room
[04:45:33] Cullen Jennings leaves the room
[04:45:57] <mary.h.barnes> Fluffy and ted are trying to do the hula...really
[04:45:57] <gmaxwell> We've been still discussing this for so long in part because many people believe it's possible to actually conclude this in the not-forever future.  ... but perfect is the enemy of good... or even of-not-awful.   This proposal is also good because it helps ensure diversity in the ecosystem that makes it possible to take advantage of changes in the world... should those changes happen to show up ... vs a future where say, h264 is mti and the next license renewal increases the prices 10x, and people are even more confident that vp8 is fine to deploy... but the ecosystem isn't agile enough to adapt.
[04:46:17] mt leaves the room
[04:46:23] <mary.h.barnes> We are waiting while Sean confers with Ads
[04:46:24] stpeter is glad he's only listening to the audio
[04:46:36] <mary.h.barnes> He has no idea how to handle this crowd.
[04:46:37] <Emil Ivov> whoever thought mic music was a good idea? :)
[04:46:40] <gaelle martincocher> diversity in the ecosystem can be achieve by implementing codecs that are not MTI
[04:46:51] <mary.h.barnes> That is Ted.
[04:46:55] <mary.h.barnes> Is it better now?
[04:47:07] <stpeter> as hold music goes, this isn't bad :-)
[04:47:33] <Emil Ivov> mary, yes :)
[04:47:36] Karen O'Donoghue leaves the room
[04:47:49] <Patrick Linskey> yes we get it, you guys are all in hawaii and we aren't. Boo.
[04:48:25] <mary.h.barnes> Yes, but we are in a generic hotel meeting room that happens to be in Hawaii.
[04:48:30] <gmaxwell> Implementing things has a cost.  Realistically the compatibility story for "secondary" codecs has been a near universal mess. That may not change here, indeed. Just as many parties may just ignore the RFC and implement whatever they want.... but as much as we think that the spec may be a dead letter in this regard it sets a direction that may well be helpful.
[04:48:50] teco boot leaves the room
[04:49:27] <mary.h.barnes> Jonathan is just messing at the mic.
[04:50:11] hildjj leaves the room
[04:50:15] hildjj joins the room
[04:50:26] <mary.h.barnes> ...stilll waiting for Sean to finish discussion with Ads...
[04:50:37] <mary.h.barnes> Thank you for your patience...
[04:50:43] Justin Uberti leaves the room
[04:50:56] <gaelle martincocher> a spec should be inclusive, this one is not.
[04:51:01] <stpeter> thank you, Mary, for keeping us informed
[04:51:06] <mary.h.barnes> Okay. Sean is back on stage.
[04:51:54] Marc Abrams leaves the room
[04:52:20] <mary.h.barnes> Question 1 (hum): Who does not want to take sense of the room today on whether to add compromise text?
[04:52:21] Marc Abrams joins the room
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[04:52:44] <mary.h.barnes> Andrew allen at the mic....
[04:52:45] mt joins the room
[04:53:44] <mary.h.barnes> Keith drage at mic
[04:54:15] <mary.h.barnes> Andrew allen back at the mic
[04:54:44] <mary.h.barnes> Martin Thomson at the mic
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[04:55:51] <mary.h.barnes> Sean is calling the Question.
[04:55:57] <mary.h.barnes> Any hums from jabber room?
[04:56:00] <stpeter> I hum in favor of "don't want to take a sense of the room today"
[04:56:19] <EKR> You're in the rough, dude
[04:56:20] <stpeter> only me!!!!
[04:56:26] <mary.h.barnes> Yes. only you.
[04:56:27] <lminiero> :)
[04:56:28] <stpeter> you're all wrong!!!!
[04:56:29] <EKR> You're out of your element, donny
[04:56:30] Justin Uberti joins the room
[04:56:31] <mary.h.barnes> Can you believe that!
[04:56:36] <gmaxwell> Stpeter is "a cricket". :)
[04:56:37] <DanYork> stpeter: :-)
[04:56:39] <hildjj> Damn.  That was harsh, jiminy.
[04:56:41] <mary.h.barnes> Next hums: Yes and no.  
[04:57:34] <mary.h.barnes> Hum 1. Those in favor of adding text to doc today.  Hum 2: Those in favor of not adding text in doc today.
[04:57:38] <mary.h.barnes> Andrew allen at the mic again
[04:58:12] Mark Harris leaves the room
[04:58:12] <hta> Andrew Allen is the second cricket.
[04:58:44] <mary.h.barnes> Andrew allen still at the mic
[04:58:48] <mary.h.barnes> Jon Peterson now at the mic
[04:59:44] <gmaxwell> Can we hum for free trauma counseling for those of us who manage to survive this meta-discussion? ....  :P
[04:59:55] Justin Uberti leaves the room
[05:00:00] <DanYork> :-)
[05:00:29] <lminiero> there are so many negations my head is spinning
[05:00:33] <gmaxwell> A sense of the room is that. Does the room prefer this or that.
[05:00:34] <stpeter> MIC: clarifying question about the hum questions, are these about getting a sense of the room or about adding specific proposed text?
[05:00:38] <lminiero> can we not agree not to add nothing nowhere?
[05:00:39] <mary.h.barnes> Sean is again talking to ads
[05:00:41] i y joins the room
[05:00:50] <stpeter> and oh the audio stream just cut out for me, reconnecting
[05:01:07] <mary.h.barnes> Peter. They are now saying it’s sense of the room.  I got beat up for trying to get clarification on that though.
[05:01:16] Justin Uberti joins the room
[05:01:36] <DanYork> Can we hum to thank Sean for trying to keep this all on track?
[05:01:37] <mary.h.barnes> Can you all see the screen?  They are putting the questions on the screen.
[05:01:47] EKR leaves the room
[05:01:48] <Patrick Linskey> I can
[05:01:56] <mary.h.barnes> I can type them if necessary.
[05:01:58] Alissa Cooper leaves the room
[05:01:58] <Peter Dunkley> I am on a low bandwidth connection and cannot see the screen.
[05:02:18] <tony hansen> hum to shove text into doc
[05:02:19] <jesup> hum for Yes, add
[05:02:20] <Maire Reavy> hum
[05:02:21] <DanYork> "Let's take a sense of the room on whether we should add the text to the document."
[05:02:21] <tetsuya hishiki> +1
[05:02:23] <mary.h.barnes> Let’s take a sense of the room on whether to add text to doc.
[05:02:23] <Patrick Linskey> humming...
[05:02:24] <Peter Dunkley> hum yes
[05:02:26] <Neil Stratford> hum
[05:02:30] <jlcJohn> Hum  "don't want to shove the text in the document"
[05:02:35] <gaelle martincocher> hum
[05:02:43] Cullen Jennings leaves the room
[05:02:48] <gaelle martincocher> that was hum don't
[05:02:58] mt leaves the room
[05:03:05] <mary.h.barnes> Rough consensus to “want to shove text in the document”.  Will take to the list.
[05:03:07] Adam Roach leaves the room
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[05:03:14] <mary.h.barnes> Not it was a hum in support of adding text to doc.
[05:03:18] Justin Uberti leaves the room
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[05:03:25] <stpeter> sigh
[05:03:35] resnick leaves the room
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[05:03:44] <stpeter> audio stream down for me, http://coral-4.conf.meetecho.com/ietf/login.jsp?ietf=rtcweb says the session is over
[05:03:47] ajeje brazorf leaves the room
[05:03:49] <jesup> on jabber: 7 hums for, 2 hums against from my read
[05:03:51] Ted.H leaves the room
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[05:04:05] <Maire Reavy> mine was a hum for yes (just to be clear)
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[05:04:36] <stpeter> I will need to post to the list because of remote participation fail
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[05:05:08] <stpeter> many people leaving, is the session over?
[05:05:34] <Emil Ivov> stpeter: yes, sean just adjourned
[05:05:35] <mary.h.barnes> Yes.  We are done.  
[05:05:42] <stpeter> ok thanks
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