IETF
saag
saag@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, November 17, 2016< ^ >
m&m has set the subject to: SAAG at IETF96: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/96/agenda/saag/
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[00:09:15] sftcd joins the room
[00:09:29] sftcd has set the subject to: SAAG at IETF97: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/97/agenda/saag/
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[00:20:02] <sftcd> @meetecho: I don't believe we'll have a remote presenter in the end, plans changed
[00:20:42] <Meetecho> sftcd: yes, we've been told via mail, thanks for the confirmation!
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[00:42:51] <sftcd> heh, I thought QUIC was gonna be revolutionary:-)
[00:43:40] <sftcd> did Kathleen get note takers/jabber scribe? (There was a bit of confusion at the start so it may have been missed)
[00:44:08] rbarnes joins the room
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[00:45:14] <sftcd> what Ted said, I need to review it but plan to start LC
[00:45:41] <rbarnes > sftcd: which "it"?
[00:45:53] <sftcd> meta-data insertion draft
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[00:46:20] <sftcd> so looks like we don't have a note taker/jabber scribe for now, any volunteers? (it's a good thing to help out a solo AD, karma will ensue:-)
[00:46:30] <rbarnes > i can scribe for the next 30min
[00:46:36] <rbarnes > moskowitz at the mic
[00:46:57] <sftcd> many thanks Richard, anyone for after that?
[00:47:01] <wseltzer@jabber.org> sure
[00:47:06] <sftcd> thanks Wendy
[00:47:29] <sftcd> anyone willing to take on notes? just to record any actions is fine, use etherpad or whatever you prefer is ok
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[00:47:55] <rbarnes > maragaret talking about BANANA Bof
[00:47:58] <John Border> Today at 1:30?
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[00:48:11] <rbarnes > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5C6X9vOEkU
[00:49:02] <sftcd> note to self: check you tube before naming BoFs in future:-)
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[00:49:51] <rbarnes > wseltzer: to be clear, i'm assuming you're on the hook now
[00:49:57] <sftcd> Sorry I don't have these slides will post later
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[00:51:45] <rsalz> Damn you barnes, my head is now taken up with "ring ring / ring ring / ring ring ring ring bananaphone"
[00:52:18] <rbarnes > rsalz: welcome to my world.  my head has been alternating between that and "gangnam style" all week
[00:52:39] <sftcd> how do you not bump into things while walking then?
[00:52:45] <m&m> ok, so it's not just me
[00:53:03] <rbarnes > also, i think it's "ring ring ring / ring ring ring ring / bananaphone"
[00:54:08] <rsalz> no, it's definitely couplets of ring-ring.
[00:54:15] <rbarnes > sftcd: bad premise; i no longer walk https://youtu.be/9bZkp7q19f0?t=71
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[00:55:28] <sftcd> @richard: you  are allowed do demos in the saag session - forge that tls1.3 stuff and try that
[00:55:55] <rsalz> Do it subtle, just gangnam up to the mic.  I'll pay you.
[00:56:07] <m&m> +1
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[01:01:34] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowlE45450E9> I bid one dollar, Bob?
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[01:07:19] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowlE45450E9> Hmm, still a v4 address in the example?
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[01:13:30] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Adrian Hope-Bailie
[01:13:46] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Crypto-Conditions slides
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[01:14:12] <sftcd> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/slides/slides-97-saag-crypto-conditions-00.pdf
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[01:17:08] <wseltzer@jabber.org> [slide 6]
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[01:19:53] <wseltzer@jabber.org> [slide 12]
[01:19:59] <sftcd> mic: (at end of his talk if nobody else asks) so I think (not sure) this is more or less as it was during their BoF in Berlin, be interested in what's changed in the meantime and knowing if this seems to be interesting to folks (that latter bit not being for the speaker obviously:-)
[01:21:12] <wseltzer@jabber.org> sftcd, ack
[01:21:42] rbarnes joins the room
[01:21:53] <wseltzer@jabber.org> unless that update answers your question
[01:22:22] <sftcd> not sure, think they were using asn1. in Berlin
[01:24:08] <rsalz> oh hell, their own signature format?
[01:24:12] <wseltzer@jabber.org> [slide 16]
[01:24:23] <IETF SACM> According to https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-thomas-crypto-conditions-00&url2=draft-thomas-crypto-conditions-01, a few examples have been added and minor changes have been made.
[01:24:50] IETF SACM is now known as Dave Waltermire
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[01:25:42] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowlE45450E9> I'm not sure that OER is a good idea, but it also doesn't seem worth
arguing about that at the mic.
[01:26:20] <rsalz> use standard signatures which are DER.  then combine them using a lightweight algebraic tree which falls out obviously as DER as well.
[01:26:46] <sftcd> yeah question for me is more whether or not this has too many moving parts to be generally useful, we'd fix (or break) the encoding if it were of interest
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[01:28:49] <rsalz> both too many, and too few since the hash is fixed to sha256?
[01:29:19] <rsalz> and therefore you can't do ed448 since it uses sha3?
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[01:31:00] <Phill Hallam-Baker> ASN.1 is never the right choice
[01:31:17] <Yoav Nir> ed448 uses sha3 internally. Whatever hash you use or don't outside of is outside the point.
[01:31:23] <Phill Hallam-Baker> JSON!
[01:31:34] <rsalz> tnx yoav.
[01:32:00] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Sean Turner at the mic
[01:32:08] rbarnes joins the room
[01:33:03] <sftcd> their list btw is https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ledger/current/maillist.html
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[01:34:06] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Rich Salz
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[01:34:15] <sftcd> thanks Wendy
[01:39:18] <wseltzer@jabber.org> sftcd, is someone speaking for Alan DeKok?
[01:39:23] <sftcd> nope should be him afaik
[01:39:29] <wseltzer@jabber.org> we don't see him
[01:39:34] <sftcd> I'll send maill
[01:39:47] <wseltzer@jabber.org> thanks Stephen
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[01:39:59] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Fernando Gont presenting
[01:42:17] <sftcd> I mailed Alan, if he doesn't show by the end I guess Kathleen/Warren or someone can just flick through the slides - they're obvious enough (if someone in the room likes 'em a lot and wants to volunteer then feel free...)
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[01:43:55] <sftcd> Alan is trying to get in as a remote now...
[01:44:18] <wseltzer@jabber.org> tx
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[01:45:00] <wseltzer@jabber.org> (Kathleen doesn't have network, so I'll relay Alan's availability after this presentation)
[01:45:29] <sftcd> thanks
[01:45:52] <sftcd> Alan, can you say here if you think you're ready just as Fernando is wrapping up?
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[01:46:20] <sftcd> assuming you're gonna try the meetecho remote presenter thing that is
[01:47:06] <Alan DeKok> I didn't get the info for the remote meetocho presenting
[01:47:07] <Carsten Bormann> There is a bit of confusion here -- often there wasn't a "bug" to be fixed with the numbers, but adding entropy to these numbers could be used as a hack to work around an unrelated attack.
[01:47:24] <Alan DeKok> I may need to use Stefan Winters laptop for remote skype… that worked yesterday in RADEXT
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[01:48:00] <sftcd> remote skype may be tricky, could Stefan walk through the slides for you and then handle questions via jabber?
[01:48:01] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Alan, let us know if you need something from us here in the room
[01:48:12] <Meetecho> Alan DeKok: you can simply try the virtual queue, if webrtc is working for you
[01:48:20] <sftcd> assuing Stefan is in the room (I'm not)
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[01:48:45] <wseltzer@jabber.org> (I don't know)
[01:49:12] <sftcd> confusion abounds:-)
[01:49:20] <Alan DeKok> arg.  meetocho is down.  Stefan is in the room
[01:49:23] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Juan-Carlos
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[01:49:39] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowlE45450E9> "I know nothing."
[01:49:40] <sftcd> ok let's ask Stefan to talk to the slides, then handle qustions via jabber for Alan?
[01:50:04] <wseltzer@jabber.org> that's Juan Carlos Zuniga
[01:50:11] <Meetecho> everything fine here, actually, maybe troubling connectivity between you and the servers here?
[01:50:31] <sftcd> thanks meetecho but if we have someone in the room who's briefed that is simpler
[01:50:37] <Meetecho> ack
[01:51:01] <wseltzer@jabber.org> is anyone in touch with Stefan? I don't know him
[01:51:14] <sftcd> you're about to:-)
[01:51:20] <Alan DeKok> tall German guy… he should be near the mic
[01:51:25] <sftcd> I think Alan has him via Skype
[01:51:34] <Alan DeKok> Meetocho:  This site can’t be reached
www.meetecho.com <http://www.meetecho.com> took too long to respond.
[01:51:48] <Alan DeKok> meetocho: rest of the net works fine.
[01:51:59] <sftcd> mic: (for fernando) why only numeric IDs? why not include others?
[01:52:10] <Meetecho> Alan DeKok: you can try the direct link, https://grandballroom1.conf.meetecho.com/q-meetecho/login.jsp?ietf=saag
[01:52:22] <Alan DeKok> better
[01:52:30] <Meetecho> meetecho.com only acts as redirect here
[01:52:33] <Alan DeKok> thanks
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[01:53:37] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Paul Hoffman
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[01:56:36] <Alan DeKok> I think I'm ready for the my slides when these questions are done.  Stefan can help with Audio
[01:56:56] <wseltzer@jabber.org> thanks alan
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[01:57:59] <sftcd> Alan if this is the last question you might want to get into the queue?
[01:58:46] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowlE45450E9> BIG RED BUTTON
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[01:59:12] <Sean Turner> it's working!
[01:59:13] <wseltzer@jabber.org> slides are up
[01:59:27] <Sean Turner> slide 1- title slide
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[01:59:37] <wseltzer@jabber.org> [slide 2]
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[02:00:10] <sftcd> thanks Meetecho, nice just-in-time work;-)
[02:00:25] <Meetecho> glad we can be of help!
[02:00:29] <wseltzer@jabber.org> [slide 3]
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[02:00:57] <wseltzer@jabber.org> [slide 4: how does it work?]
[02:01:08] <sftcd> "sign" here meaning MAC ?
[02:01:19] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowlE45450E9> presumably
[02:01:27] <wseltzer@jabber.org> [slide 5: exchanging keys]
[02:02:06] <wseltzer@jabber.org> [slide 6]
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[02:02:45] <wseltzer@jabber.org> [slide 7: Problems]
[02:03:26] <wseltzer@jabber.org> [slide 8: Questions]
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[02:04:57] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Bob Moskowitz
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[02:07:59] <sftcd> warren takes over!
[02:08:07] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Kathleen at the mic
[02:08:48] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowlE45450E9> Kathleen is stepping down?!  Quick, someone tell Nomcomm...
[02:09:20] <sftcd> and then back up:-)
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[02:11:44] <sftcd> I plan to try get my AD review of this done before year-end and all going well last call it early in the new year
[02:11:48] <wseltzer@jabber.org> @@ US Bank
[02:12:23] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Mike Ackerman, Blue Cross
[02:12:24] <sftcd> I'm not aware of any concrete regulatory needs wrt TLS1.3
[02:13:01] <slm> sftcd: is that for the Mic?  (not that I'm there to do that)
[02:13:21] <sftcd> nah, it's a quibble, we had those discussions on the tls list already
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[02:13:38] <slm> I meant about your AD schedule for the draft
[02:14:04] <sftcd> ah sorry, no that's ok too, I'll mail the saag list myself anyway
[02:14:20] <Yoav Nir> They claim that once TLS 1.3 is "out there", the regulation will come, just as the regulations are now pushing them to abandon 1.0
[02:14:34] <sftcd> that is a claim made yes
[02:14:36] <slm> darn thought we were the trusted inner circle
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[02:15:14] <sftcd> mic: crafting solutions is great, so long as it does not mean "break crypto"
[02:15:41] <Yoav Nir> Dissemination?  I thought that was what publishing an RFC is about.
[02:15:41] <sftcd> don't try arrive at solutions via euphesisms
[02:15:45] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowlE45450E9> There's alwaysa more inner circle
(http://www.lewissociety.org/innerring.php)
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[02:16:06] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Paul Hoffman
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[02:16:27] <Sean Turner> great pic
[02:16:45] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowlE45450E9> I didn't realize that I would need to bring popcorn to saag as well as
TLS...
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[02:17:35] <wseltzer@jabber.org> sftcd, in line next
[02:18:06] <sftcd> @wendy you can skip my mic request, Paul covered it
[02:18:14] <wseltzer@jabber.org> ok
[02:18:41] <wseltzer@jabber.org> I'll stay in case an echo is needed
[02:18:52] <sftcd> yeah sure why not, may as well:-)
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[02:19:47] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Bob Moskowitz
[02:19:56] <rsalz> +1 that's a great idea!
[02:19:59] <sftcd> mic: not sure I agree with Bob this was *all* about tls
[02:20:00] <Sean Turner> we have the new work mailing list!!!! already
[02:20:12] <Sean Turner> it's not just about TLS let's be clear
[02:20:31] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Nalini Elkins
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[02:20:46] <sftcd> @sean: it ought not only be about tls but it was in fact all about tls with these people
[02:21:04] <sftcd> mic: I'm opposing a mailing list for this for now
[02:21:09] <sftcd> mic with interrupt please
[02:21:16] <Sean Turner> I agree ...
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[02:21:28] <wseltzer@jabber.org> ack
[02:22:48] <sftcd> thanks
[02:22:48] <wseltzer@jabber.org> DKG
[02:22:52] <rsalz> who is Nalini's "boss" in terms of the mentoring program?
[02:22:58] <Yoav Nir> IMO if you have to troubleshoot a live production environment by sniffing production traffic, that's a failure of the diagnostics (logging and such)
[02:23:29] <sftcd> not for mic but repeatedly asking (as these folks keep doing) is more annoying than fruitful
[02:23:48] <sftcd> someone please pass that on to 'em if they're not in jabber
[02:23:53] <Yoav Nir> rsalz: I don't think she has one
[02:24:06] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Steve Fenter
[02:24:18] <rsalz> *somebody* put her in charge of the mentoring program.  no?
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[02:24:47] <sftcd> frankly some of their arguments about what breaks were BS
[02:25:01] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Darren
[02:25:19] <sftcd> some of them first need education, starting with a search engine or textbook
[02:25:46] <sftcd> mic: this is repetitive of the tls list discussion please stop
[02:26:31] <wseltzer@jabber.org> I think Kathleen's got it
[02:26:44] <Yoav Nir> I think she invented it and got the ADs to tolerate it / allocate rooms
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[02:27:00] <sftcd> yeah, it's irritating though as we explained to these people that saag is not a venue to appeal the consensus of the tls wg
[02:27:09] <wseltzer@jabber.org> Yoav Nir
[02:27:35] <sftcd> yet they keep doing so
[02:28:10] <wseltzer@jabber.org> [not enough hands familiar]
[02:28:11] <rsalz> well, okay, given IETF governance, the next level up can remove the level down.  I want to write a complaint note.  So who, iesg?
[02:28:27] <sftcd> saag is not in the appeal chain for anything
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[02:28:35] <kadukoafs@gmail.com/barnowlE45450E9> (re Yoav's comment) Clearly the conclusion to draw is that there is no
longer IETF consensus that security considerations are needed and we
should update the BCP to say that security considerations sections
should not be present.  That would be sure to get some comments...
[02:28:38] <sftcd> that was explained to them yet there they were
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[02:28:48] <Yoav Nir> rsalz: The specific AD (Stephen) and then the IESG
[02:28:54] <sftcd> right
[02:28:57] <sftcd> well chairs first
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[02:29:01] <sftcd> for the wg
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[02:29:21] <rsalz> so, wgchairs ?
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[02:29:30] <sftcd> yep
[02:29:31] <Yoav Nir> Yeah, but given that the chairs already rejected them.
[02:29:59] <sftcd> saag is still not part of any appeal yet they keep coming, I guess we'll have to answer such things in public in future
[02:30:26] <rsalz> Okay, I'll write something and send it next week.
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[02:30:35] <sftcd> thanks
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