IETF
suit
suit@jabber.ietf.org
Wednesday, July 18, 2018< ^ >
Morton has set the subject to: SUIT WG
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
[13:11:53] Rich Salz joins the room
[13:12:04] Rich Salz has set the subject to: SUIT at IETF 102
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[13:12:24] <Rich Salz> I'm yer jabber scribe, put MIC if you want things relayed or ping me directly.
[13:12:48] <Russ Housley> Thanks for being the scribe
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[13:31:16] <Rich Salz> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-suit-chair-slides-00
[13:31:20] <Rich Salz> p3 administrative tasks
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[13:31:50] <Rich Salz> p4 agenda
[13:32:11] <Rich Salz> p5 status report
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[13:33:13] <Rich Salz> p6 milestones
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[13:35:04] <Rich Salz> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-suit-hackathon-report-00
[13:35:16] <Rich Salz> p2 Hackathon plan, software updates for IoT
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[13:35:50] <Rich Salz> (Is that the first time IETF WG was named in board silkscreen?)
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[13:36:21] <Rich Salz> p3 The Group
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[13:37:19] <Rich Salz> p4 What got done
[13:37:37] <Rich Salz> p5 What was learned
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[13:40:11] <Rich Salz> p6 p7 The SUIT project was well received
[13:40:21] <Rich Salz> p7 What is next
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[13:42:23] <Rich Salz> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-suit-suit-architecture-01
[13:42:41] <Rich Salz> p2 Changes between -00* and -01
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[13:43:50] <Rich Salz> p4 author & device
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[13:44:10] <Rich Salz> p5 communicator
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[13:45:12] <Rich Salz> p6 status tracker
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[13:45:51] <Rich Salz> p7 firmware server
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[13:46:44] <Rich Salz> p8 device and network operator
[13:47:59] <Rich Salz> p9 trust provisioning authority
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[13:59:38] <Rich Salz> p11 operating modes
[14:01:51] <Rich Salz> p13 communication architecture
[14:02:28] <Rich Salz> p15 single cpu SoC
[14:03:45] <Rich Salz> p16 single cpu with secure - normal mode partitioning
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[14:04:34] <Rich Salz> p17 dual cpu shared memory
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[14:07:53] <Rich Salz> p18 dual cpu other bus
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[14:08:15] <Rich Salz> p19 encryption of manifest
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[14:09:49] <Rich Salz> p20 next steps
[14:10:24] <Gurshabad Grover> Mic: I think there are general advantages to encryption of the firmware image and manfiest. But up to WG whether the draft needs to dissect requirement levels for devices associated with humans or not.
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[14:10:32] <Rich Salz> k
[14:10:53] <Gurshabad Grover> MIc: also recommended encryption of manifest because it contains device info
[14:11:51] <Rich Salz> sorry if i mis-pronounced your name
[14:12:03] <Gurshabad Grover> That's alright :)
[14:12:27] <Rich Salz> p21 random thoughts
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[14:13:21] <Rich Salz> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-suit-an-information-model-for-manifests-01
[14:13:23] <Rich Salz> p2 sttus
[14:13:40] <Rich Salz> p3 threats
[14:13:57] <Rich Salz> p4 unqualified firmware (multiple network operators with a single device operator)
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[14:15:27] <Rich Salz> p5 unqualified firmware (single network operator with multiple device operators_
[14:16:23] <Rich Salz> p7 terminology
[14:17:12] <Rich Salz> p8 multiple payloads/firmware images
[14:17:39] <Rich Salz> p9 same title, example 2
[14:17:57] <Rich Salz> p10 … example 3
[14:18:44] <Rich Salz> p11 rollback
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[14:23:57] <Brendan Moran> MIC: "Best Before"
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[14:24:25] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Once you start talking about dates, then accurate/secure time comes
into play, and IIUC we don't have a great universal story for time
[14:24:31] <Rich Salz> still want me to say?
[14:24:36] <Rich Salz> p14 storage locations
[14:24:42] <Brendan Moran> Probably not, it looks like the moment has passed.
[14:24:47] <Rich Salz> yes, sorry.
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[14:25:08] <Rich Salz> p15 component identifier
[14:25:09] <Brendan Moran> Don't worry, it'll get sorted out on the mailing list.
[14:25:11] <David Brown> secure time is a difficult problem for this class of device.
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[14:25:35] <Rich Salz> "My VCR still flashes 12:00"
[14:25:41] <Rich Salz> p16 conditins
[14:25:43] <Brendan Moran> The only thing that looks sensible is challenge/response time queries
[14:25:48] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> "You still have a VCR?"
[14:25:53] <Brendan Moran> +1
[14:26:03] <Antti Kolehmainen> I'm wondering, could attestation help in securing (also) rollbacked firmware updates?
[14:26:41] <Brendan Moran> Possibly? Attestation of what?
[14:26:54] <Antti Kolehmainen> of the software and the hardware
[14:27:08] <Brendan Moran> Are we talking about remote attestation?
[14:27:11] <Antti Kolehmainen> yes
[14:27:29] <Rich Salz> p17  directives alises dependencies etc
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[14:28:25] <Rich Salz> p18 next steps
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[14:28:56] <Brendan Moran> Ah, okay. It might help. One of the fundamental assumption in this architecture is that a compromise of the remote side should not compromise the targets. For that reason, the devices do not trust the remote.
[14:29:04] <Brendan Moran> That makes attestation more difficult.
[14:30:38] <Antti Kolehmainen> ah, indeed
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[14:31:33] <Rich Salz> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-suit-draft-moran-suit-manifest-00
[14:32:43] <Rich Salz> p2  open issues
[14:33:08] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Huh, I thought the datatracker was supposed to provide (an option for)
converted PDF, but I'm only finding a way to grab pptx
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[14:34:49] <Rich Salz> p3 open issues cont'd
[14:35:06] <David Brown> COSE uses the term "Externally Supplied Data"
[14:35:51] <Rich Salz> p4 primary structure array vs map
[14:37:14] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Is Carsten saying "pull parser" or "bull parser" or something else?
[14:37:30] <Rich Salz> pull parser is the common term
[14:37:37] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> thanks
[14:37:47] <David Brown> If we specify Canonical CBOR, the order of a map will be determined.
[14:38:30] <Rich Salz> where the parser pulls in input data, as opposed to where the parser pushes out events as they happen.  classic example of the latter is XML SAX.
[14:39:28] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Makes sense; I'm just listening to the quic stream in one ear so
getting the consonant right was hard
[14:39:42] <David Brown> In the small device case, actors involved will be memory constrained, and not have RAM available to parse into a data structure.
[14:40:25] <Meetecho> Note to chairs: there's a remote participant in queue. Granting him the floor will mean temporarily revoking the floor to Brendan, who'll need to get in queue again
[14:40:57] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I was wondering how the logistics of that would work (and how often it
has come up)
[14:41:04] <Meetecho> (next time please add scheduled remote speakers to our list, so that we can put them in a separate channel unaffacted by queues)
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[14:42:05] <Brendan Moran> I have exited and rejoined the queue
[14:42:56] <Rich Salz> @Kaduk, the meetecho comment implies the answer:  remote speakers are scheduled ahead of time, so they don't interfere with the q&a remote queue
[14:43:08] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> indeed
[14:44:23] <Meetecho> Yep, we send scheduled speakers an ad-hoc link which assigns them a different role
[14:44:32] <Meetecho> That allows them to unmute at will
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[14:44:43] <Brendan Moran> Is there a way to do this now that the meeting has started?
[14:45:30] <Meetecho> Brendan Moran: I'll create a link for you now and send it in private
[14:45:48] <Brendan Moran> Perfect
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[14:48:45] <Rich Salz> @meetecho thanks!
[14:49:04] <Rich Salz> still on p4
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[14:51:04] <David Brown> CDDL allows [ k => v ], but doesn't define meaning.
[14:51:22] <Rich Salz> p5 tree-based process description proposal
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[14:53:25] <Rich Salz> p6 … cont'd
[14:55:41] <Rich Salz> p7 … cont'd
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[14:57:14] <Rich Salz> p8 description of installation process in manifest
[14:58:41] <David Brown> Are we reinventing ASN.1's OID here?
[14:59:33] <Rich Salz> or DNS or various language package/class names that use DNS?
[15:02:04] <David Brown> What is important, I believe, is to define a prefix, and assign authority to sub-allocate to those prefixes.
[15:03:13] <Rich Salz> So simplest is an IANA registry, interop is DNS or OID's I guess
[15:03:40] <Rich Salz> p9 …same title
[15:03:57] <David Brown> DNS has the advantage of deferring allocation to an existing authority structure.
[15:04:07] <Rich Salz> As do OID's.
[15:04:24] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> "But all the good (short) ones are already taken"
[15:04:31] <Rich Salz> p10 … same title
[15:05:34] <Rich Salz> p11 … same title
[15:08:06] <Rich Salz> p12 examples
[15:08:10] <Rich Salz> p13 examples
[15:09:33] <Rich Salz> p15 highlights of changes
[15:09:43] <Rich Salz> p14 current changes
[15:10:28] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Going back a bit and maybe answering my own question, I guess
positive/negative map indexes could be used for (non-)critical
extensibility points
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[15:11:12] <David Brown> COSE has a "crit" header which is a list of map keys, and if a parser sees one in that list that it doesn't understand, it can reject.
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[15:14:25] <David Brown> That's one reason. The other is to make pull parsing easier.
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[15:15:23] <Rich Salz> @David, mic?
[15:19:10] <Rich Salz> p15 highlights of changes
[15:20:09] <Rich Salz> p16 WIP status
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[15:20:25] <Rich Salz> p17 severable text
[15:21:01] <Rich Salz> p18 …cont'd
[15:25:41] <Rich Salz> p19 severable text
[15:25:45] <Rich Salz> p20 multiple payloads
[15:26:55] <Rich Salz> p21 resources separated from assets
[15:27:23] <Rich Salz> p22 conditions divided into preconditions and postconditions
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[15:28:42] <Rich Salz> p23 component identifier
[15:30:54] <Rich Salz> preso's done.  chair wrap-uo
[15:31:00] <Rich Salz> er, wrap-up
[15:32:31] <David Brown> Prefer not 9-20 Sept, for me to be able to attend.
[15:33:18] <David Brown> End of Sept is good.
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[15:44:23] <Gurshabad Grover> Me too, probably (re Bangkok)
[15:44:40] David Brown remote, possibly in person
[15:44:57] <Gurshabad Grover> Thanks, Rich!
[15:45:00] <Rich Salz> … and we're out.
[15:45:03] <Brendan Moran> Thanks!
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