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[11:01:14] <Jonathan Morton> I wonder if Bob has fixed his audio this time?
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[11:02:09] <Bob Briscoe> It's a Linux problem. Not fixed, but we have a PlanB
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[11:03:26] <Brian Trammell> I can do notes
[11:03:29] <Brian Trammell> if I have a backup
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[11:04:01] <Jake Holland> I can be backup.
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[11:04:55] <Bob Briscoe> It affects other interactive conferencing apps. and appeared when I 'upgraded' to Ubuntu 20.04
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[11:05:04] <Lars Eggert> wes, your audio volume goes up and down...
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[11:11:24] <Magnus Westerlund too> The slides can be download from here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/materials/slides-108-tsvwg-sessb-udp-options
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[11:13:24] <Magnus Westerlund too> They are publicly available both of the agenda page button (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda/#2020-07-30-100000) as well on the meeting material page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/materials/#tsv
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[11:14:41] <Jake Holland> this went in notes as meeting materials: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/session/tsvwg
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[11:27:00] <Bob Briscoe> Greg said what Iwas going to say
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[11:34:09] <Tim Chown> there was a comment at the mic about operators not knowing what to do to support l4s; where is that best captured?
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[11:34:49] <Jonathan Morton> are you talking about my comment, Tim?
[11:34:58] <Tim Chown> maybe :)
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[11:35:07] <Gorry Fairhurst> @tim: please put this to greg after his talk.
[11:35:16] <Tim Chown> the response was "well, its not published yet"
[11:35:31] <Tim Chown> I can't speak, can someone relay?
[11:35:52] <Jonathan Morton> my concern was that Greg's document appears to push a lot of L4S' operational burden onto existing ECN operators, who are not necessarily aware of L4S' existence
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[11:36:36] <Jonathan Morton> WRT to the present discussion: in general, admission control is necessary whenever a "higher" QoS is requested by a network input
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[11:37:03] <Jonathan Morton> admission control can take several effective forms
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[11:40:30] <Gorry Fairhurst> Admissionb control isn't required to use PHBs in general.
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[11:40:36] <Gorry Fairhurst> /b//
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[11:41:01] <Jonathan Morton> not formally, but in practice
[11:41:23] <Gorry Fairhurst> As specified in the RFCs for DS.
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[11:47:40] <Jake Holland> who was that, Jonathan?
[11:47:46] <Jonathan Morton> yes
[11:47:47] <Magnus Westerlund too> Yes
[11:47:55] <Jake Holland> Who did you reference?
[11:48:00] <Jake Holland> didn't catch the name
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[11:48:22] <Jonathan Morton> Mohit Tahiliani, or however it's spelled
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[11:50:41] <dee3@hot-chilli.net> NASA Mars Perseverance Probe has just lifted off
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[11:53:52] <Mirja Kühlewind> +1 to remove MUST requirement
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[11:54:54] <Jonathan Morton> it probably makes sense to allow effective send rates to drop below 2 per RTT, via pacing, but keep the cwnd &gt;= 2
[11:55:12] <Jonathan Morton> but that's a general CC question really
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[11:57:03] <Jonathan Morton> classic fallback stuff definitely needs more discussion and development, compared to what we've seen demonstrated
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[11:58:43] <Mirja Kühlewind> first one
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[12:07:28] <Jake Holland> +1 useful
[12:07:36] <Jonathan Morton> aside from the obvious…
[12:07:38] <Martin Duke> +1 useful
[12:07:53] <Jake Holland> documenting TCP Prague would clear up some of L4S
[12:07:57] <Philip Eardley> yes, useful, thanks
[12:08:08] <Jake Holland> who was that speaking?
[12:08:14] <Mirja Kühlewind> didn't read the draft but will have a look, so I also think it's useful
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[12:13:21] <Peter Heist> l4s and classic flows can also share a queue in the event of a hash collision fq
[12:13:39] <Peter Heist> w/ fq
[12:13:40] <Jonathan Morton> or if the distinction between flows is hidden by a tunnel
[12:14:57] <Brian Trammell> what would be involved in trying to figure out whether ECN/FIFO devices are widely deployed?
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[12:15:29] <Brian Trammell> i can't think of an ethical way to measure it, but I can't imagine it would be prevalent unless it was a vendor default for a while
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[12:16:30] <Jonathan Morton> you could send L4S and Classic flows in parallel down the same path, and see whether they get the same marking or the same average cwnd
[12:17:06] <Jonathan Morton> I take it that would have ethics concerns?
[12:17:17] <Jake Holland> not if requested by clients
[12:17:40] <Jake Holland> maybe a RIPE experiment?
[12:17:40] <Mirja Kühlewind> you won't because get the same behavior because loss reduces the queue length but marking not
[12:17:45] <Brian Trammell> yep
[12:18:34] <Brian Trammell> and you need to make sure the queues are more or less equally hot.
[12:18:40] <Mirja Kühlewind> but you need a lot of measurement to find CE marking at all (and a lot of traffic to send)
[12:18:42] <Brian Trammell> so that the baseline marking probability is the same
[12:19:02] <Brian Trammell> and the only way I know to do that is to flood your bottleneck. hence ethics.
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[12:19:19] <Gorry Fairhurst> Attemptig to congest paths isn't something that I'd encourage for general measurements either... filling queues in other people networks isn't that nice!
[12:19:22] <Bob Briscoe> @Peter, The probability is not just the birthday paradox, because it also requires the two flows that have collided to both be long-running (which is very rare relative to the proportion of flows that are short)
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[12:19:23] <Jonathan Morton> agreed
[12:19:48] <Brian Trammell> probably easier to try and figure out from laboratory testing if widely deployed routing/switching gear does this
[12:19:58] <Brian Trammell> (or even just a doc search to see if it claims to)
[12:20:06] <Jake Holland> you also have to see if it's enabled
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[12:20:19] <Brian Trammell> well, if it never shipped, it's hard to enable ;)
[12:20:19] <Jake Holland> there's many docs claiming they do this, but the claim is nobody has turned it on.
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[12:21:20] <Jake Holland> RED variations are very commonly shipped.  Probably most Juniper and Cisco devices have an implementation.
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[12:21:27] <Brian Trammell> ok
[12:21:37] <Brian Trammell> but ECN/RED is OK, right?
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[12:22:03] <Brian Trammell> or am I missing something?
[12:22:07] <Jake Holland> no, that's the problem case when shipping l4s.
[12:22:13] <Brian Trammell> ah, got it.
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[12:22:17] <Bob Briscoe> No, ECN/RED is the primsry likely problem
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[12:23:37] <Jake Holland> Should note that it's not RED as-written.  The currently shipping implementations generally do something to mitigate the documented tuning problems somehow or other.  nobody knows how successfully, afaik.
[12:23:56] <Brian Trammell> so the prevalence of that behavior will be approximately equal to the prevalence of ECN marking before people started turning ECN on again
[12:24:10] <Brian Trammell> (with a delay factor for how long it takes to ship new defaults)
[12:24:27] <Brian Trammell> okay, yeah, the error bars on that are wide enough to have to worry about it.
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[12:24:43] <Jake Holland> this is unknown.  it's believed that much of today's marking is from in-home fq devices
[12:24:56] <Brian Trammell> that was my belief as well
[12:25:09] <Brian Trammell> the marking we saw in the Pre-FQ era was... minimal
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[12:25:43] <Jake Holland> you can narrow it somewhat to places with observed marking across many clients
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[12:26:06] <Peter Heist> @Bob true, but collisions can still occur between long running flows. might be worth including that in a calculation of the probability of flows meeting.
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[12:26:09] <Jake Holland> part of my concern is that we see a growing number of such ASNs
[12:26:24] <Brian Trammell> last time I talked to Atlas they were not interested in adding ECN probing functionality to Atlas
[12:26:29] <Brian Trammell> that was a while ago though
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[12:27:32] <Bob Briscoe> @Brian, the low visibility in active measurements could have been 'cos the measurement traffic did not coincide with queue saturation by other traffic.
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[12:27:39] <Jake Holland> still small, but we have no idea who's been trying that out, finding it's helpful now that some endpoints are using it, and turning it on.
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[12:28:04] <Bob Briscoe> Whereas passive measurements by CDNs (Akamai, Apple) show higher levels of CE
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[12:28:21] <Brian Trammell> right
[12:28:40] <Jake Holland> you sound practically all caught up :)
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[12:29:09] <Bob Briscoe> Altho, when the highest Apple CE level was investigated, it was due to ToS mangling.
[12:29:13] <Mirja Kühlewind> Jake will present something in maprg next week :-)
[12:29:25] <Brian Trammell> and now i have to go to a not-very-well-timing-synchronized side meeting
[12:29:29] <Brian Trammell> yay, looking forward to it
[12:29:44] <Jake Holland> don't get your hopes up. it's a cry for help.
[12:30:00] <Brian Trammell> \o see some of you at LOOPS tomorrow
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[12:30:07] <Jake Holland> but there's some info in it.
[12:30:51] <Mirja Kühlewind> just wanted to make some advertisement for the maprg session next week! ;-)
[12:30:59] <Bob Briscoe> @Jake, what's "it"?
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[12:31:06] <Mirja Kühlewind> aug 5, 13 UTC
[12:31:13] <Greg White> @mirja Thanks, I would have missed that otherwise
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[12:31:17] <Mirja Kühlewind> the maprg talk, bob
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[12:31:41] <Bob Briscoe> Yeah, just rtealized that.
[12:32:06] <Jake Holland> yes, thanks Mirja.  good idea to advertise it, maybe a note to some targeted ietf lists could be in order, lots of people might not be on maprg list specifically
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[12:33:26] <Jana Iyengar> +1. I'm not paying attention to the maprg mailing list
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[12:35:19] <Jake Holland> @bob: "it" is the talk Mirja mentioned I'm giving in maprg next week
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[12:36:56] <Bob Briscoe> Yup, got that - thanks
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[12:38:12] <Bob Briscoe> Meta-question about chat pane in MeetEcho - the output pane doesn't auto-scroll to always show the latest post. FOr me at least. Does this affect everyone?
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[12:38:30] <Jake Holland> it auto-scrolls for me
[12:38:56] <Meetecho> Bob Briscoe: it should autoscroll automatically, if you've scrolled manually to the last message
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[12:39:08] <Mirja Kühlewind> Jake, yes, will send some more mails! Good idea!
[12:39:11] <Meetecho> If not, we won't scroll because we assume you want to read past messages
[12:39:22] <Mirja Kühlewind> jana, why are you not on the maprg list? it's super low load...
[12:39:40] <Bob Briscoe> Yes, that's what I'd expect. It just did, but it doesn't always - perhaps it's when I'm typing
[12:40:01] <Jana Iyengar> @mirja: never got on it
[12:40:25] <Meetecho> Bob Briscoe: a few other people said the same, so there may be some hidden bug... we'll look into it, apologies for the inconvenience!
[12:40:27] <Jana Iyengar> didn't have a reason to, but this might be it :-)
[12:41:37] <Anna Brunstrom> @meetecho i have the same scrolling problem as well
[12:42:25] <Meetecho> Anna Brunstrom: ack, noted. One thing that might help is clicking on the chat area, and then using ctrl+end (or whatever combo allows you to go at the end in your OS). Some users saw it working that way
[12:42:59] <Jonathan Morton> it seems to work for me, even when I have text typed
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[12:43:11] <Jonathan Morton> it may be browser specific
[12:43:58] <Meetecho> Jonathan Morton: it seems to be a weird bug in figuring out if the HTML element is really at the end or not: apparently the mouse may not scroll at the very end, while that combo does. At any rate, it gives us info to look into it
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[12:44:13] <Anna Brunstrom> thanks @meetecho will try the possible fix
[12:44:27] <Meetecho> Anna Brunstrom: glad to be of help!
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[12:50:38] <Meetecho> Note to chairs: please notice you're 10 minutes over time, and we may need to close the room soon (the next session is close)
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[12:51:14] <David Black> We're actually just coming up on time.
[12:52:45] <Jake Holland> who was that who just spoke before lars?
[12:52:59] <Magnus Westerlund too> David, your slot officiall ends 12:40 UTC. So I think you need to shutdown things now.
[12:53:47] <Meetecho> Yes, the slot closed at 12:40 UTC
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[12:55:34] <Mirja Kühlewind> thanks gorry
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