IETF
urnbis@jabber.ietf.org
Friday, July 25, 2014< ^ >
stpeter has set the subject to: URNbis WG | http://tools.ietf.org/wg/urnbis/
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

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[15:13:29] stpeter joins the room
[15:46:23] Eric Burger joins the room
[15:47:37] hardie@xmpp.rg.net joins the room
[15:47:52] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> Howdy, if you need something relayed to the room, please put MIC: at the front.
[15:48:04] <Eric Burger> Thanks Ted
[15:48:28] <stpeter> thanks
[15:48:32] <stpeter> the audio is fine
[15:48:38] ראש תחום joins the room
[15:48:39] <Eric Burger> 💀
[15:48:52] <ראש תחום> G'morning, all.
[15:48:56] <Eric Burger> Hey Barry!
[15:49:42] <stpeter> love those RTL nicknames - UTF-8 FTW
[15:49:58] <ראש תחום> Some clients do not behave terribly well with them.
[15:50:06] <ראש תחום> waddyagonnado
[15:50:25] <Eric Burger> Wow! That’s loud!
[15:50:42] <stpeter> audio just went away for me
[15:50:49] yone joins the room
[15:50:51] <Eric Burger> Still there for me.
[15:51:00] SM joins the room
[15:51:02] Andrew Sullivan joins the room
[15:51:04] <stpeter> yep
[15:51:10] <stpeter> I had to reload the stream
[15:51:19] <ראש תחום> Too loud?
[15:51:19] <Andrew Sullivan> I am your somewhat-friendly jabber scribe
[15:51:25] Julian joins the room
[15:51:26] <Andrew Sullivan> someone else is relaying.
[15:51:33] <Eric Burger> Thanks Andrew
[15:51:37] hildjj joins the room
[15:51:55] stpeter still needs to write that "How to be a Jabber Relay" I-D
[15:52:00] <ראש תחום> And…. we're off!
[15:52:09] <Andrew Sullivan> we have a minute taker (Dorothy someone) and we're going
[15:52:13] <Eric Burger> Gellens?
[15:52:15] <Andrew Sullivan> Note Well is up
[15:52:16] <ראש תחום> Stanley.
[15:52:19] <Eric Burger> thx
[15:52:22] <hildjj> is the audio ok?
[15:52:25] <stpeter> audio is fine
[15:52:40] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> Dorothy Stanley
[15:52:44] <Andrew Sullivan> This reminds me that if you're speaking SPEAK TO THE MIC and also SAY YOUR NAME SLOWLY AND CLEARLY
[15:52:47] <Eric Burger> StP: is your audio distorted. Mine is just clipped.
[15:52:51] <Andrew Sullivan> because I am tired
[15:52:54] <Andrew Sullivan> Agenda slide
[15:53:10] <Andrew Sullivan> Status slide: stalled
[15:53:24] <stpeter> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/urnbis/agenda?item=agenda-90-urnbis.html doesn't have the late addition - what's the I-D?
[15:53:31] <Andrew Sullivan> Barry, who did not say his name, says we're burning out ADs
[15:53:44] <ראש תחום> Quips don't need names....
[15:54:03] <Eric Burger> We never would have known it was Barry Leiba at the mic 🙀
[15:54:48] <Andrew Sullivan> I hope it's obvious that I'm not going to try to transcribe what people are saying
[15:55:03] <Andrew Sullivan> but follow slides, try to catch names at mic, and so on
[15:55:32] Dave Thaler joins the room
[15:55:36] <Andrew Sullivan> John Klensin going to mic
[15:56:04] <ראש תחום> PSA: draft-seantek-certspec is the new addition.
[15:56:26] Tony Hansen joins the room
[15:56:37] m&m joins the room
[15:57:08] <Andrew Sullivan> Sean Leonard going up to present query and fragment component slides
[15:57:48] <Andrew Sullivan> Example Controversy slide
[15:57:57] <Andrew Sullivan> (there appear not to be slide no.s)
[15:58:13] <Eric Burger> Titles are good enough. Thanks.
[15:58:22] <Eric Burger> Shame on chairs for not mandating it.
[15:58:27] <Eric Burger> (page numbers, that is)
[15:58:34] <Eric Burger> Maybe urn:pn:2?
[15:58:47] <Andrew Sullivan> 2141 vs. URNBIS
[15:58:47] <Eric Burger> 👹
[15:59:42] <Andrew Sullivan> What ? and # could mean
[16:00:09] <ראש תחום> Eric, if that's the worst crime chairs commit……
[16:00:31] <Eric Burger> I don’t know…. they have a bunch of expired App AD’s on their hands…
[16:00:44] <Eric Burger> Present company excepted, of course ;-)
[16:00:51] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> Eric:  unfortunately, some of the free production tools don't do it automatically (I bane of mine with Google's tool, for example)
[16:01:23] <Eric Burger> Are we back to the RFC production discussion? :-(
[16:01:39] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> Eric:  No.
[16:01:43] <Andrew Sullivan> what ? could mean cont'd
[16:01:48] <Andrew Sullivan> a line forms at the mic
[16:02:01] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> Keith Moore and Joe Hildebrand are in line
[16:02:17] <Andrew Sullivan> [editorial: maybe I should do this as collosal cave descriptions?]
[16:02:21] <Andrew Sullivan> so what is it?
[16:02:25] <Eric Burger> I’m sure Joe will say what I’m thinking, so I’ll sit on my hands and give Ted a break.
[16:02:31] <Andrew Sullivan> [i,e, that's the slide]
[16:02:42] <ראש תחום> get axe
[16:02:44] <Andrew Sullivan> Keith Moore at mic
[16:02:44] <ראש תחום> throw axe
[16:03:15] <Andrew Sullivan> [disagree emphatically]
[16:04:00] <Andrew Sullivan> Joe Hildebrand at mic
[16:04:14] resnick joins the room
[16:05:53] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> The line after Joe is now Keith, Barry, Leslie
[16:06:05] <Andrew Sullivan> and Larry Masinter
[16:07:22] <Andrew Sullivan> There is much back and forth with Andy (in chair)
[16:07:33] <Eric Burger> I miss MeetEcho!
[16:08:00] <Andrew Sullivan> Keith Moore is back at mic, but Sean is responding to Joe first.
[16:08:12] <Andrew Sullivan> slide up is ? and # could mean slide
[16:09:02] <Andrew Sullivan> Joe asks for example (not to mic)
[16:09:17] <Eric Burger> Slap Joe silly!
[16:09:51] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> He's very far back in the line.  After Larry is now Dave Thaler, with Joe at the back.
[16:10:21] <Andrew Sullivan> Keith Moore now
[16:12:23] <Andrew Sullivan> Barry Leiba
[16:13:13] <Andrew Sullivan> Leslie Daigle
[16:13:24] <Andrew Sullivan> [on ratholes]
[16:14:20] <Eric Burger> Is Leslie ratholing on the rathole?
[16:14:53] <ראש תחום> Can you put a whole rat into a rat hole?
[16:14:54] Tony Hansen leaves the room
[16:15:05] <Eric Burger> :-)
[16:15:19] <Andrew Sullivan> Agreement from Sean
[16:15:28] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> Line is currently Larry, Dave, Joe, Keith
[16:15:45] <Andrew Sullivan> Andy cuts mic line
[16:15:52] <Andrew Sullivan> Larry Masinter
[16:15:54] <stpeter> +1 to John's presentation
[16:16:48] <Andrew Sullivan> ["let us not debate the past."  I didn't know that we were allowed to make that argument at IETF meetings!]
[16:17:03] <Andrew Sullivan> Andy asks whether that's a chair decision or a WG problem
[16:17:13] <Andrew Sullivan> Andy speaking his personal opinion
[16:17:31] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> "Except that someone who worked off that opinion may break"
[16:17:38] <Andrew Sullivan> Dave Thaler at mic
[16:18:15] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> I'm stepping away for a moment, but since the line is cut, it should not matter.
[16:18:16] hardie@xmpp.rg.net leaves the room
[16:19:29] <Andrew Sullivan> Joe Hildebrand again
[16:20:16] <Andrew Sullivan> Andy making a point in chair
[16:20:34] <Dave Thaler> percent encoding # and not percent encoding # mean very different things.  The former has a scheme-specific meaning.  The latter has a scheme independent meaning.
[16:21:38] <Andrew Sullivan> Sean now, responding
[16:21:58] <Andrew Sullivan> Keith Moore again
[16:23:12] hardie@xmpp.rg.net joins the room
[16:23:25] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> back
[16:24:35] <Andrew Sullivan> Presentation over.  John Klensin stands
[16:24:44] <Andrew Sullivan> The URI and Forking questions
[16:25:14] <Eric Burger> me
[16:25:21] <Eric Burger> Proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procrustes
[16:25:31] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> You're ready for bed?
[16:25:34] <Andrew Sullivan> Different presentation than what he posted the other day
[16:25:36] <Eric Burger> hee hee
[16:25:45] <Andrew Sullivan> he's going to talk for a few moments, not with slides
[16:26:31] <Eric Burger> We ARE having endless arguments about what URNs are ;-)
[16:26:59] <Andrew Sullivan> John outlines things we could have endless arguments about.  I think this is a set-up …
[16:27:14] <Andrew Sullivan> [oh, sorry, that was editorial]
[16:27:33] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> (He is responding to Larry's comment:  what's an example?)
[16:27:39] <Andrew Sullivan> Julian says "t's very clear" from the floor
[16:29:16] <resnick> I want to *know* the grand URI gestalt.
[16:29:19] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> gestalt:  does not permit either query syntax or fragments.  That's part of its nature.
[16:29:37] <ראש תחום> With the gestalt comes Grand URI angst.
[16:29:46] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> Oh way, that's the gestalt uri, not the URI gestalt.
[16:30:13] <ראש תחום> Ted means to say "URN gestalt".
[16:30:36] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> no, I didn't say urn:gestalt, I said gestalt: (implying a scheme, not a NID)
[16:30:53] <Andrew Sullivan> Joe H goes to the vicinity of the mic without actually approaching
[16:30:58] <Andrew Sullivan> now approaches
[16:31:12] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> Joe is actually at the mic.
[16:31:41] <Andrew Sullivan> Joe speaking
[16:32:11] <stpeter> urn:zeitgeist:gestalt:angst:schadenfreude
[16:32:31] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> Is that for the MIC: ?
[16:32:32] <Andrew Sullivan> a mic line forms
[16:32:47] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> Leslie and Larry are behind
[16:32:47] <stpeter> no, because I didn't use the mic: URI scheme
[16:32:49] <Andrew Sullivan> Leslie Daigle at mic
[16:33:01] <Andrew Sullivan> A love-in of idea ensues
[16:33:17] <Andrew Sullivan> Larry Masinter
[16:33:37] <hildjj> n:example.com/foo/bar
[16:33:45] <Dave Thaler> I do hate it :)
[16:33:49] <hildjj> cool.
[16:34:24] <Andrew Sullivan> Leslie is in line again.  Dave is not.
[16:34:42] <hildjj> Dave Thaler: can you say why at the mic, please?
[16:34:51] <hildjj> because i'm interested.
[16:35:15] Tony Hansen joins the room
[16:36:06] <Andrew Sullivan> Leslie Daigle again
[16:36:13] <Andrew Sullivan> now explaining why she doesn't hate
[16:36:28] <Andrew Sullivan> Keith Moore approaches the mic
[16:36:37] <Andrew Sullivan> or I guess joins line
[16:37:05] <Andrew Sullivan> Keith Moore again
[16:37:12] <stpeter> I can't say I grokked Joe's proposal the first time around
[16:37:13] <Eric Burger> BTW, just because I said “We ARE having endless arguments about what URNs are ;-)” does not mean I don’t believe we know what a URN is.
[16:37:31] <Andrew Sullivan> stpeter: for MIC?
[16:37:37] <Eric Burger> nah
[16:37:43] <hildjj> stpeter, it was we define "n:" as a new URI scheme that MUST NOT be parsed ever
[16:37:50] <stpeter> ah
[16:37:53] <Eric Burger> It will just make everyone stand up again.
[16:37:56] <Andrew Sullivan> Andy saying something
[16:38:08] <Andrew Sullivan> Larry Masinter, I believe
[16:38:18] <Andrew Sullivan> (matching on head-back and sound)
[16:38:29] <hildjj> stpeter: they're mint-only.
[16:38:47] <Andrew Sullivan> Now longish line: Keith, Leslie, Sean (I think), and Dave T
[16:38:54] <hildjj> yes, daveT
[16:39:18] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> Upleveling, I'd say your proposal is to acknowledge the need for a fork and to choose a method for allowing the post-fork methods to be distinguished.
[16:39:25] <hildjj> yes.
[16:39:34] <hildjj> further, to not break existing minted urns.
[16:39:52] <hildjj> and to allow minting unique strings through some other URI
[16:40:02] <hildjj> scheme
[16:40:09] <stpeter> can we make it xn—: ? ;-)
[16:40:12] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> For what it is worth, I think that's a fine way forward—and it implies that urn nids in use are considered pre-fork.  Whether any of the post-form methods is still a "urn" is the devil likely to be in the details.
[16:40:17] <hildjj> stpeter: evil.  i like.
[16:40:37] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> Very long line now.
[16:40:38] <hildjj> we can call them neems
[16:40:43] <Andrew Sullivan> Barry AD interrupt
[16:41:03] <hildjj> they're not uniform.
[16:41:47] <hildjj> it's just possible to reason about whether they might collide with other strings that have been minted
[16:41:49] <Andrew Sullivan> [surely that should be nurns]
[16:41:54] <hildjj> oon.
[16:41:54] <Andrew Sullivan> Keith Moore again
[16:41:56] <hildjj> ooo
[16:42:01] <hildjj> nurn's.
[16:42:11] <stpeter> Not a URN?
[16:42:16] <hildjj> nru
[16:42:22] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> If you make them norns, you get a whole mythology along with.
[16:42:37] <stpeter> are we now in Nornia?
[16:42:50] <Andrew Sullivan> [norns: not obviously regularized names]
[16:43:10] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> Keith is dancing.
[16:43:31] <Andrew Sullivan> Leslie Daigle responding to Andy's question
[16:44:14] <Andrew Sullivan> Sean Leonard at mic
[16:44:26] <ראש תחום> stpter, I can't seem to send you a private message.  Will you send me one to open a channel?
[16:45:21] <Andrew Sullivan> Many answers from floor, then John Klensin
[16:45:34] <Andrew Sullivan> Dave Thaler at mic
[16:45:48] <stpeter> ראש תחום: received?
[16:46:09] <stpeter> heh
[16:46:29] <Andrew Sullivan> Joe H in mic line
[16:46:40] <Andrew Sullivan> Dave now explaining what he hates
[16:47:22] <Andrew Sullivan> Joe H speaking
[16:47:57] <Andrew Sullivan> Ted Hardie in line, and maybe Dave again
[16:48:01] Eric Burger joins the room
[16:48:16] <Andrew Sullivan> Ted Hardie as himself
[16:48:38] <Dave Thaler> Joe's answer doesn't make me hate it any less
[16:49:01] <Andrew Sullivan> A Line Forms
[16:49:02] <Dave Thaler> Julian immediate jumps into the linr!
[16:49:16] <Dave Thaler> line
[16:49:28] <Andrew Sullivan> John Klensin responding
[16:49:40] <Andrew Sullivan> Joe H again
[16:51:09] <Andrew Sullivan> Joe and John having back and forth about this
[16:51:59] <Andrew Sullivan> Andy asks whether they're managed.  Joe: no
[16:52:29] <Andrew Sullivan> Larry Masinter without his name again
[16:52:33] <stpeter> tag:FTW
[16:53:23] <Andrew Sullivan> Andy disagrees
[16:53:42] <Andrew Sullivan> Larry again
[16:53:54] <hildjj> tag: may just work for this.  need to think about it
[16:54:17] m&m leaves the room: Disconnected: connection closed
[16:54:26] <Andrew Sullivan> John attempts to outline how the forking thing happens (and succinctly)
[16:54:55] <Andrew Sullivan> Larry says he can represent the repository librarians.  John is also describing what "they" think.
[16:56:18] <hildjj> yeah, i think tag: is more-or-less exactly what i was proposing.
[16:56:40] <hildjj> maybe we -bis it and make it standards-track
[16:56:43] <Andrew Sullivan> Larry again
[16:56:58] <hildjj> (note: rfc 4151)
[16:57:26] <Dave Thaler> sure
[16:57:38] <Andrew Sullivan> Andy
[16:57:38] <Dave Thaler> (to Joe)
[16:57:59] <Andrew Sullivan> Joe interrupts in line, it's tag:, and maybe standardize
[16:58:05] <Andrew Sullivan> Andy to John
[16:59:03] <Andrew Sullivan> John answering
[17:00:18] <stpeter> hildjj: BTW, in at least one recent case, someone posted to the urn-nid list about a proposed URN namespace and it turned out that tag: solved his problem
[17:00:38] <Andrew Sullivan> general discussion from the floor
[17:00:41] <Andrew Sullivan> Julian Reschke
[17:01:40] <Andrew Sullivan> Ted Hardie
[17:01:43] <hildjj> what i said away from the mic was that this might pull one piece of the problem away such that the resulting problem may be more easily solvable.
[17:02:21] Eric Burger leaves the room
[17:02:35] <Dave Thaler> @hildjj: use of tag would remove any hate from me (I like that proposal)
[17:02:44] <Andrew Sullivan> Julian asking again
[17:02:56] <hildjj> Dave: cool.
[17:03:07] <stpeter> hildjj: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/urn-nid/current/msg01251.html
[17:03:23] <Dave Thaler> I only hate proposals that one cannot use 3986 syntax and 3986 compairson ladder with.
[17:03:39] <hildjj> tag: is informational, and i'd like a standards-track doc to refer to.
[17:03:58] <Andrew Sullivan> Julian disagreeing
[17:04:21] <Dave Thaler> @joe: and that's what I said "sure" to above.
[17:05:04] <Andrew Sullivan> Keith Moore again
[17:05:36] <Andrew Sullivan> Julian in line again.
[17:06:37] <Andrew Sullivan> Barry in line
[17:08:27] <Andrew Sullivan> John responding
[17:08:33] <Andrew Sullivan> Larry in line again
[17:08:43] <Andrew Sullivan> Andy responding
[17:09:50] <Andrew Sullivan> Julian again
[17:10:22] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> 10 minutes to go, yes?
[17:10:25] <Andrew Sullivan> yes
[17:10:51] <Andrew Sullivan> Line now Julian (speaking), Barry, Larry, Sean, Leslie
[17:10:54] <Dave Thaler> +1 to Julian  (I said this at the mic earlier)
[17:11:04] <hildjj> if we can't use URNs in a URI protocol slot any more, we break a BUNCH of running code
[17:11:11] <Dave Thaler> right
[17:11:26] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> 9
[17:11:51] <stpeter> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#anyURI comes to mind...
[17:12:04] <stpeter> 8
[17:12:20] <Andrew Sullivan> Andy expressing sympathy
[17:12:37] <Andrew Sullivan> Julian asking "what does it mean" from floor
[17:12:43] <Andrew Sullivan> John offering less cute title
[17:12:50] <Andrew Sullivan> Julian rejoining line
[17:13:08] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> 7
[17:13:10] <Andrew Sullivan> Barry speaking
[17:14:04] <Andrew Sullivan> John asking to be told where to go…
[17:14:12] <Andrew Sullivan> Larry Masinter
[17:14:17] <stpeter> thanks Barry :-)
[17:14:20] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> 6
[17:14:46] <Andrew Sullivan> [I believe that Larry just proposed a meta-BCP, which is an innovation I confess I'd never contemplated]
[17:15:20] <Andrew Sullivan> Sean
[17:16:11] <Andrew Sullivan> Leslie
[17:16:34] <Dave Thaler> I observe that 2141bis is titled URN "Syntax", not semantics...
[17:16:42] <stpeter> 4
[17:17:01] <Andrew Sullivan> Andy asking for opinion about separating semantics
[17:17:06] <stpeter> it depends on what the meaning of "are" is
[17:17:07] <Andrew Sullivan> Leslie doesn't know what it means
[17:17:15] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> 3
[17:17:24] <Dave Thaler> I don't know what it means either.  Is comparison about syntax or semantics?
[17:17:34] <Andrew Sullivan> Barry
[17:17:37] <Andrew Sullivan> Julian
[17:18:13] <Dave Thaler> I'm guessing semantics, but I don't know if that's what the chair means in the question.
[17:18:17] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> 2
[17:18:47] <Andrew Sullivan> Andy, Julian, and John in a conversation
[17:19:23] <Andrew Sullivan> We're down into the final seconds
[17:19:24] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> 1
[17:20:08] <stpeter> 0
[17:20:24] <ראש תחום> bzzzzzzzt!
[17:20:38] <Andrew Sullivan> [I will note that ICANN uses a shot clock in their plenaries, with a loud buzzer.  I have often longed for it.]
[17:20:55] <ראש תחום> Да
[17:21:01] <stpeter> +1
[17:21:15] <Andrew Sullivan> Barry to mic
[17:21:23] <resnick> For those not here, Julian said "Probably".
[17:22:11] <stpeter> +2
[17:22:32] <Andrew Sullivan> Hotel staff appear to be anxiously milling about outside
[17:23:55] <Andrew Sullivan> John is offering to channel stpeter
[17:24:10] <Eric Burger> I need to leave in 5 minutes, too!
[17:24:33] ראש תחום leaves the room
[17:24:45] <Andrew Sullivan> Andy: Next step: talk about semantics of URN & URIs and decide how it affects 2141bis
[17:24:47] resnick leaves the room
[17:25:22] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> A statement that starts "Depending on what you mean by semantics…." is too meta for Friday afternoon of IETF week.
[17:25:31] <Andrew Sullivan> Keith is at mic
[17:25:50] <Andrew Sullivan> A Line Forms
[17:25:51] <Dave Thaler> I think what 2141bis needs to do is define "scheme-specific normalization" per 3986 section 6.2.3, and answer comparison that way.
[17:26:12] <Andrew Sullivan> Leslie
[17:26:16] <Andrew Sullivan> Andy cuts the line
[17:26:21] <hardie@xmpp.rg.net> Last-word Leslie
[17:26:26] hildjj leaves the room
[17:26:50] <Andrew Sullivan> fin
[17:26:51] hardie@xmpp.rg.net leaves the room
[17:26:56] <Andrew Sullivan> thank you all
[17:26:58] Andrew Sullivan leaves the room
[17:26:59] <stpeter> I propose the nan: scheme = not a name
[17:27:02] SM leaves the room
[17:27:02] Julian leaves the room
[17:27:07] <Eric Burger> Bye!
[17:27:10] yone leaves the room
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[17:39:08] Julian joins the room
[17:39:53] Tony Hansen joins the room
[17:41:07] Julian leaves the room: Computer went to sleep
[17:42:21] Dave Thaler leaves the room
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