IETF
uta
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Tuesday, November 11, 2014< ^ >
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
[04:18:22] ilari.liusvaara joins the room
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[19:02:34] <Aaron Zauner> very last WG last call :)
[19:02:48] sftcd   joins the room
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[19:07:25] <sftcd x> hard to believe that this concept would mean to users what it means in reality, not sure
[19:08:20] <sftcd x> anyone remote getting video in meetecho btw? I'm not
[19:08:25] frodek joins the room
[19:08:29] <Aaron Zauner> me neither
[19:08:47] sftcd x leaves the room
[19:08:54] <Meetecho> sftcd x: video should be working actually, we're monitoring it, checking again now
[19:08:56] <David Perkins> Now lost the slides
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[19:09:47] <sftcd x> I left/re-joined same  no-video, ah well
[19:09:57] Aaron Zauner joins the room
[19:09:58] <Meetecho> can you see the slides at least?
[19:10:11] <sftcd x> yep slides fine and audio too, so quite workable
[19:10:23] <Meetecho> working on the speakers video as I type :)
[19:10:27] <sftcd x> ta
[19:11:07] <sftcd x> video appears
[19:11:11] <Aaron Zauner> now there's video
[19:11:14] <Meetecho> ok
[19:11:19] <Aaron Zauner> thx
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[19:17:58] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Begin Notes: Russ Hously and Sean (?) agreed to provide a review of the Cert Pinning section of the DEEP submission.
[19:18:04] <sftcd x> or DANE for submission could be done in the DANE WG (either should work)
[19:18:13] Kathleen Moriarty joins the room
[19:18:36] <resnick> Eric Rescorla speaking.
[19:18:43] <Hosnieh R.> I think Sean Tuner
[19:19:25] <sftcd x> nope, deno Ekr
[19:19:31] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Russ Hously and Sean Turner to provide Cert Pinning Review.
[19:19:52] Dan Wing leaves the room
[19:19:54] <resnick> That was to Trent: Sean Turner and Russ Housley.
[19:20:05] <resnick> EKR was speaking.
[19:20:18] <sftcd x> and I bet he will again sometime:-)
[19:20:43] <Sean Turner> please don't split it ....
[19:21:14] meetecho team leaves the room
[19:21:26] doug.otis joins the room
[19:21:40] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Proposal under discussion to split document between technical content and advisory content.
[19:23:25] Kurt Andersen leaves the room
[19:23:39] Kurt Andersen joins the room
[19:24:13] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Discussion being asked to be moved to the list; debate is likely to be longer than is easily disposed of in the room.
[19:24:39] yaron.sheffer joins the room
[19:25:32] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: proposal to merge with TLS certs document; chair's suggestion to keep moving forward separately and potentially merge at a later date.
[19:25:47] hta joins the room
[19:25:49] <resnick> Doug Otis speaking.
[19:25:49] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Doug Otis on Mic
[19:25:53] <resnick> ;)
[19:26:09] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: EKR
[19:26:10] Roger Carney joins the room
[19:27:44] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: proposal to remove references to DANE out of document
[19:27:55] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Same
[19:28:00] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Sam
[19:28:09] <resnick> Sam Hartman.
[19:28:18] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Room responds against removal from references to DANE
[19:29:42] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: EKR
[19:30:20] <doug.otis> DANE also limits CA use.
[19:31:00] <sftcd x> DANE WG are working on an operational issues doc too
[19:31:07] <sftcd x> maybe MIC that please
[19:32:12] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: How to consider the timeout for the latches.  Should there be a timeout similar to HSTS?
[19:32:34] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Ryan
[19:33:03] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Sam Hartman
[19:33:42] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Initial preference in document to not mention timeout due to simplicity; room discussion
[19:34:10] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Daniel Gilmore
[19:34:20] shoji joins the room
[19:34:21] <hartmans> +1 dkg
[19:35:36] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Room hum… "Do you support timeouts for latches?"
[19:35:57] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: 3 Parts: do you support, no, you do not support, I don't know.
[19:36:40] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Do you support — No timeout  — Don't know — result: non-conclusive; needs more discussion on the list.
[19:37:24] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Question, does the UTA WG want to adopt and take this work on?
[19:37:30] Dan Wing joins the room
[19:37:32] <Tony Hansen> hum
[19:37:39] <sftcd x> hum for adopting it
[19:37:40] <Tony Hansen> to support
[19:37:45] <Aaron Zauner> +1 adopt
[19:37:54] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Room hum: support / no support — result: strong support
[19:38:10] Dan Wing leaves the room
[19:38:31] resnick always find adoption hums silly, but is happy that there are no objections to adoption.
[19:38:32] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Plan to rev document in next week or two
[19:38:58] <Tony Hansen> yes read
[19:39:29] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Now that the work has been adopted, Chairs request WG participants to review document.
[19:39:37] Dan Wing joins the room
[19:39:47] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> END DEEP
[19:39:51] <sftcd x> same pressie as Monday?
[19:39:53] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Franck Martin
[19:40:07] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Presenting on "TLS results in AR mail header”"
[19:40:07] <sftcd x> ok, that's fine, break time for me:-)
[19:44:27] zwicky joins the room
[19:45:03] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Chris Newman
[19:46:23] kivinen joins the room
[19:46:56] jtrentadams@gmail.com leaves the room
[19:48:56] bortzmeyer joins the room
[19:49:25] Catherine Dibble joins the room
[19:49:51] jtrentadams@gmail.com joins the room
[19:50:05] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Doug Otis
[19:50:10] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Kurt Anderson
[19:50:18] <bortzmeyer> When will we stop having to patch TLS libraries in emergency? https://technet.microsoft.com/library/security/ms14-066
[19:50:22] Catherine Dibble leaves the room
[19:50:50] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Concerns about spoofability of a header model.
[19:51:02] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic:  ??
[19:51:28] sftcd joins the room
[19:51:52] <resnick> Sean Leonard
[19:52:14] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Sean Leonard
[19:52:15] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Concern about undifferentiated strings in the header; suggestion to formalize the fields for a common, interoparable values.
[19:52:29] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: ??
[19:52:42] <yaron.sheffer> Tero Kivinen
[19:52:50] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Tero Kivinen
[19:53:16] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Concern about lack of utility of header when munched through different intermediaries
[19:53:59] John Dickinson leaves the room
[19:54:32] David Perkins leaves the room
[19:54:39] <Kurt Andersen> response to Tero: OAR (Original-Auth-Results) header can help convey AR information through one layer of intermediation
[19:54:58] David Perkins joins the room
[19:55:17] John Dickinson joins the room
[19:55:43] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Concern that details of fields are locally relevant, not necessarily global
[19:57:45] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: John Levine
[19:59:02] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Support for use of information like this within headers, it provides some useful signals regarding what happened earlier in multi-hop flows, plus can be useful for debugging
[19:59:10] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Chris Newman
[20:00:03] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: The utility of this would be if the semantics are uniform across vendors; concern this proposal doesn't include detailed semantics
[20:00:52] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Suggest definition of "what authentication means" prior to approaching this
[20:00:57] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Sam Hartman
[20:01:36] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Some potential concerns about privacy implications, but this information could be useful in some uses
[20:01:41] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Chris Newman
[20:02:09] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Reiteration of lack of semantics which hinders interoperability
[20:02:49] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Sam Hartment
[20:02:56] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Sam Hartman
[20:03:11] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Chris Newman
[20:03:58] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Discussion between Sam and Chris homing on value of loosely defined information vs detailed semantics
[20:04:06] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Kurt Anderson
[20:04:17] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Questioning issues with privacy
[20:04:26] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Sam Hartman
[20:04:49] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: It's privacy leakage due to being written into header that can be forwarded out of a protected domain
[20:05:41] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Leif
[20:06:47] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: It's not clear that this work has concensus on direction, but another revision would be welcome.
[20:06:58] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Chris Newman
[20:07:19] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: willing to work on MTA - MTA authentication specification
[20:07:23] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Steve Freedle
[20:07:53] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Steve willing to work with Chris on the MTA - MTA authentication specification (with participation by Franck)
[20:08:12] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> END "TLS results in AR mail header”"
[20:08:33] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> BEGIN: "The Token Binding Protocol Version 1.0”"
[20:08:47] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Andrei Popov
[20:09:40] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Presentation: http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/91/slides/slides-91-uta-2.pdf
[20:12:36] <hartmans> Uh, why do we need public key for this?
[20:12:45] <hartmans> Wouldn't a symmetric MAC be a better solution to this problem?
[20:12:52] <yaron.sheffer> +1
[20:14:38] <yaron.sheffer> Actually, that would be TLS-PSK.
[20:15:11] <sftcd> MIC: (not really for this set of authors but...) is it now time to start worrying about combinatoric explosion of alpn tokens? (finally)
[20:16:30] <hartmans> No, I don't think you want tls-psk for this.
[20:16:48] <hartmans> I think you want normal tls but you want a MAC of the user auth token...you know, the way things like AWS etc already do.
[20:17:46] <yaron.sheffer> mic: is there a threat model where it is easy for an attacker to steal the bearer token from the browser or DOM, but where it is hard to call the crypto library to sign the proof of possession?
[20:17:57] <ilari.liusvaara> sftcd, I actually posted something about that to the list earlier.
[20:18:03] <yaron.sheffer> @sam, I see your point.
[20:18:09] <hartmans> O, I guess they want to completely avoid any sort of export attacks...  But even then, you could have a key wrap where the server wraps the symmetric key to the crypto module on the client.
[20:18:25] <hartmans> and then you only need a pk op for the key wrap.
[20:18:34] <sftcd> @ilari: yeah, let's see what they (or the http folks) say when that comment gets to the front of the line:-)
[20:18:57] <Barry Leiba> I'll get in the mic queue for channeling when they wrap up the presentation.
[20:19:13] <Barry Leiba> I have Stephen and Yaron on the queue
[20:19:16] <sftcd> many thanks
[20:19:53] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Vinod Anupam
[20:25:26] jtrentadams@gmail.com leaves the room
[20:25:34] jtrentadams@gmail.com joins the room
[20:28:48] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Barry Channeling Chat Room
[20:29:42] <sftcd> MIC: (maybe) so who is working that topic where?
[20:29:52] <sftcd> TRAM wanted to add some (for a while)
[20:30:06] john.levine joins the room
[20:30:07] <sftcd> what if ICE wanted to use this mechanism too?
[20:30:14] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Andrei Popov
[20:31:02] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: ??
[20:31:10] <Barry Leiba> Martin Thomson
[20:31:19] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Martin Thomson
[20:31:48] Stefan Santesson joins the room
[20:32:11] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Andrei Popov
[20:32:25] <sftcd> they are already extending tls
[20:33:10] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Discussion of using extensions to serve the same purpose
[20:33:32] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Ben Kaduck
[20:33:43] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Andrei Popov
[20:33:53] <sftcd> s/Kaduck/Kaduk/
[20:34:28] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Jeff Hodges
[20:35:11] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Discussion of where token bindings discussions should be homed
[20:35:25] <sftcd> should be homed in SEC area
[20:35:55] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Channel bindings should be standardized, and is already in use in the field
[20:35:57] doug.otis leaves the room
[20:36:33] <sftcd> Jeff was talking about channelID which is != channel bindings
[20:37:46] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Jeff was talking about channelID which is != channel bindings (thanks for correction)
[20:37:58] Ben Kaduk joins the room
[20:38:23] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Martin Thomson
[20:39:17] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Exploring other options
[20:39:23] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Pete Resnick
[20:40:00] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Question about how this work fits into the working group
[20:40:36] <sftcd> MIC: (If needed) this should be in sec area I agree
[20:40:42] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: There is a lot of security work, should it work under the Security Area?
[20:41:08] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Andrei Popov
[20:41:21] <sftcd> MIC: This SEC AD doesn't agree with Andrei
[20:41:29] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: There seems to be a straddle between Security and Apps
[20:41:36] <sftcd> nah, its a group hug
[20:41:37] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Pete Resnick
[20:42:20] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Security area seems to be a better fit
[20:42:24] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Leif
[20:42:30] <sftcd> but to be clear: I'd like to see this progress however is best
[20:42:43] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: We are happy to run the conversation for now, and discuss where to home it later.
[20:42:49] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: ??
[20:42:56] <Ben Kaduk> Erik Nygren on mic
[20:43:05] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Erik Nygren
[20:43:44] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Discussing concerns about breakage between hops that encourage MITM attacks
[20:44:07] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: John Bradley
[20:44:55] frodek leaves the room
[20:45:22] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Useful for proof of possession of tokens; coordination between other proof of possession work like JWT would be useful to align semantics
[20:45:49] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: EKR
[20:46:26] Meetecho leaves the room
[20:47:10] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Consider coordination with TLS work at server for channel binding to echo extensions that would work for this
[20:47:29] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Mark Nottingham
[20:47:45] Meetecho joins the room
[20:47:53] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Consider coordination with HTTP working group
[20:48:03] <sftcd> so who asked for the alpn registry to be fcfs:-)
[20:48:20] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Chris Newman
[20:49:18] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: This doesn't seem to be only an HTTP specific issue.  Similar issues exist in any local devices
[20:49:33] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Jeff Hodges
[20:49:55] Kurt Andersen leaves the room
[20:50:06] Kurt Andersen joins the room
[20:50:10] <Ben Kaduk> Hmm, maybe the mic line is still too long to mention the similarities between this and HOBA.
[20:50:42] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Procedural question — There is a lot of similarity in other work; what about shutting down WebSec?
[20:50:45] <sftcd> ya think? HOBA's the nice simple version of this, but they do have reasons to be more complicated
[20:50:50] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Sam Hartman
[20:51:24] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: This appears to be another familiar proposal; it's important and never seems to get done for one reason or another
[20:51:29] <sftcd> previous instances of this idea did not falter on process, but because of authors changing their minds
[20:51:52] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Suggestion that this time it find a home and get done, regardless of org heirarchy
[20:51:57] <Aaron Zauner> +1
[20:52:00] <Ben Kaduk> Well, HOBA is for when you're doing auth at the http layer, but this is when you're doing auth at the app layer
[20:52:03] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Katherine Moriarty
[20:52:13] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: We see value in the work and will find where it will get done.
[20:52:14] <Barry Leiba> Kathleen
[20:52:18] <sftcd> @ben: yep
[20:52:27] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Pete Resnick
[20:52:54] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: We can spin this up, support it, and then find where it needs to go.
[20:52:57] Kathleen Moriarty leaves the room
[20:53:12] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> END "The Token Binding Protocol Version 1.0”"
[20:53:23] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> BEGIN: "TLS Fallback Dance"
[20:53:35] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Daniel Kahn Gillmor
[20:53:35] Kurt Andersen leaves the room
[20:53:48] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Presentation: http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/91/slides/slides-91-uta-3.pdf
[20:53:51] sftcd leaves the room
[20:53:51] Julian joins the room
[20:54:11] Kurt Andersen joins the room
[20:54:15] sftcd x leaves the room
[20:57:02] Kathleen Moriarty joins the room
[20:59:53] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: EKR
[20:59:53] Kurt Andersen leaves the room
[21:00:38] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Martin Thompson
[21:00:52] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: The fallback process is extremely varried
[21:01:05] Lorenzo Miniero joins the room
[21:01:41] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: documenting what everyone does might be useful
[21:01:50] Kurt Andersen joins the room
[21:01:56] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Daniel Gillmor
[21:02:10] Satoru Kanno joins the room
[21:02:35] <Sean Turner> +1 to Martin said about it being good to document this stuff
[21:02:40] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Call to room.. how many people deploy fallbacks? Response from room: three hands;
[21:02:55] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Martin Thompson
[21:03:13] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Falling back to plaintext is bad.  Everyone should share what they're doing and level up.
[21:03:35] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Rob Trace
[21:03:47] Lorenzo Miniero leaves the room
[21:04:11] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: IE does do some skipping vs smooth fallback transitioning
[21:05:16] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: When removing RC4 there was a lot of breakage; if forced to fallback, experience is slower, but helps to move forward through stronger security and faster onnections.
[21:05:33] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: ??
[21:06:21] STEFAN SANTESSON joins the room
[21:06:26] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Servers aren't efficient at implementing TLS; need to get better
[21:06:59] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Race to the bottom concern about always falling back to lowest known working state due to what is supported
[21:07:07] <Barry Leiba> Ryan Sleevi is on mic now
[21:07:25] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Ryan Sleevi
[21:07:47] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Are there other contexts in which this same model is in effect?
[21:07:57] Sam S joins the room
[21:08:22] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: On browser side, the fallback dance changes so quickly, documenting this may lag behind practice
[21:09:03] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Daniel Gillmor
[21:09:10] Ben Kaduk leaves the room
[21:09:22] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: This is encouraging a discussion, not a firm proposal
[21:09:36] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Is this work that UTA should adopt?
[21:09:52] STEFAN SANTESSON leaves the room
[21:09:56] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Mark Nottingham
[21:11:13] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Is formalizing steps like what TLS WG is discussing supported by UTA?
[21:11:57] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: HTTP2 is discussing requirements of fallback cypher suites, does the UTA support this approach?
[21:12:07] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Daniel Gillmor
[21:12:52] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Leif
[21:13:12] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Suggest taking the question about fallback procedures be taken to the discussion list
[21:13:20] Sam S leaves the room
[21:13:22] sam s joins the room
[21:13:37] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Given time sensitivity for TLS WG, perhaps a hum would help
[21:13:47] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Martin Thompson
[21:14:11] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Don't build in fallbacks, set requirements and meet them
[21:15:03] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Orit Levin
[21:15:07] doug.otis joins the room
[21:15:31] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: UTA doesn't have in its charter providing advice to new protocols, primarily focused on existing protocols
[21:15:48] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Leif
[21:16:53] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: In a general sense, Hum for whether HTTP2 should support fallback; Hums indicate lack of general knowldge in the room enough to make a determination
[21:16:55] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: ??
[21:17:31] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Assuming the fallback has to happen, how to do it in the least bad way
[21:17:48] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: How to build a way out of having to do the fallback dance in the future
[21:18:26] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: ??
[21:18:29] <doug.otis> Service Discovery offers a solution.  It seems this might be wedged into SRV records.
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[21:18:39] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: What is going to be documented?
[21:18:49] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Daniel Gillmor
[21:18:59] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: I'm not documenting anhthing, this is a discussion.
[21:19:03] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Chris newman
[21:19:35] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: In reality, if TLS negotiation fails, fall back to plaintext.  That's about it
[21:20:02] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Unless an existing library does the fallback correctly, few roll their own fallback as there's too much to get wrong
[21:20:13] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Rob Trace
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[21:20:39] <doug.otis> SMTP is a different story.
[21:20:47] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: When TLS 1.2 was turned on by default, there were problems with outright breakage
[21:21:11] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: concerns about historical libraries that weren't well written
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[21:22:34] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: You may not know when a server can't negotiate a specific suite until during / after the attempt
[21:23:03] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Ryan Sleevi
[21:23:25] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Can know what is breaking today, but hard to know what new things will break
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[21:23:49] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Pete Resnick
[21:24:13] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: looking for summary questions before proceeding
[21:24:17] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> On Mic: Lief
[21:24:36] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Is there something in this presentation worth pursuing within UTA?
[21:24:53] <Barry Leiba> Leif
[21:25:13] <Barry Leiba> "I" before "E", except in "Leif" and "Leiba".
[21:25:34] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Understanding the uncertainty, is there interest in the room to see this work move forward? Result, hums show interest in seeing it
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[21:26:30] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes: Additional clarification - are there volunteers to work on this? Result— yes, there are hands in the room indicating interest and support.
[21:26:50] <Aaron Zauner> I agree that this is important to document, not sure if I'll have time to contribute though (will try)
[21:26:59] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> Notes; Daniel Gillmor will find people to work together on a draft
[21:27:29] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> @barry - I reserve the right to employ creative spelling.
[21:27:55] <Barry Leiba> Fair 'nuff.
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[21:28:10] <jtrentadams@gmail.com> END of MEETING
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