IETF
videocodec@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, 6 November 2012< ^ >
stpeter has set the subject to: Video Codec BoF, IETF 85 | agenda and logistics: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/85/agenda/videocodec/
Room Configuration

GMT+0
[00:00:22] <David Flynn> Regarding earlier comment, please note that many ITU-T (VCEG) members are also participants in ISO/IEC (MPEG)
[00:00:31] <burn> Stefan Wenger at mic
[00:00:38] <burn> David, did you want that relayed to mic?
[00:00:41] fireglow leaves the room
[00:00:52] fireglow joins the room
[00:00:59] <David Flynn> Not urgent at all
[00:01:22] <burn> Jean-Marc Valin at mic
[00:02:00] <burn> Okay, David, np. When you want something relayed, prefix with 'mic:'
[00:02:05] <burn> Harald Alvestrand at mic
[00:02:50] <burn> Cullen Jennings at mic
[00:04:14] <irc-> [ron_] the liasons the codec group received were mostly along the lines of "we haven't had time to look at your codec, but here is an AD for ours ..."
[00:04:21] <burn> Stefan Wenger at mic
[00:04:22] Pat Jensen leaves the room
[00:04:34] <gmaxwell> Its a BOF we don't have a codec. :)
[00:04:37] <irc-> [ron_] it would be great if we got something better in this group. but does anyone really expect we will?
[00:07:31] <rillian> who is at the mic?
[00:07:35] <burn> (speaker is Peter St. Andre from th efront)
[00:07:42] Jason Self leaves the room
[00:07:42] <rillian> thanks
[00:08:28] <burn> Tim Terriberry at mic
[00:08:41] <burn> Mary Barnes also from the front just now
[00:09:01] <Lorenzo Miniero> back to the slides
[00:09:03] <gmaxwell> It's sort of unfortunate that the lessons learned were not referenced against the charter. (some of those things are quite clearly addressed in the proposals so far, e.g. the code is the spec)
[00:09:03] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: Closing Questions (cf. RFC 5434)
[00:09:06] <burn> Peter again from th efront
[00:09:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: The Problem
[00:10:07] <burn> Magnus Westerlund at mic
[00:10:45] <burn> Harald Alvestrand at mic
[00:11:24] <burn> Tim Terriberry at mic
[00:12:03] <burn> Joe Hildebrand at mic
[00:12:44] <burn> Christian Hoene at mic
[00:13:45] Alex Converse leaves the room
[00:13:45] <burn> Stefan Wenger at mic
[00:13:56] <burn> (side comment just now was from Peter up front)
[00:14:28] <burn> Eric Rescorla (ekr) at mic
[00:14:52] <Simon Romano> Need a new codec for ekr :-)
[00:15:15] <Stefan Hacker> Did someone just speed up the audio ;)
[00:15:22] <kyle> lol
[00:15:31] <burn> "This is slowing down v6 deployment" - Cullen from the floor (literally)
[00:15:55] <burn> Kevin Gross was just speaking
[00:16:02] <burn> now Jean-Marc Valin at mic
[00:16:15] <burn> Randell Jesup at mic
[00:16:17] <Martin Thomson> buffer bloat
[00:16:34] <burn> (Cullen's comment was a joke, in case that wasn't obvious :) )
[00:16:57] <gmaxwell> burn: I'll look into adding IPv6 as a requirement. :P
[00:17:08] <burn> gmaxwell: hah
[00:17:15] <gmaxwell> (we can code part of the frame into the flow id! :P )
[00:17:36] <burn> Peter St. Andre from the front
[00:17:48] danyork likes the idea of an IPv6 requirement ;-)
[00:18:27] <danyork> While we're at it, can we figure out a way to also require DNSSEC? :-D
[00:18:28] <burn> Stefan Wenger at mic
[00:18:37] <burn> (mic line formed rapidly)
[00:18:53] <gmaxwell> It's a little unfair to basically classify everyone who contributes technical data as being outside of the IETF.
[00:19:11] <burn> Jean-Marc Valin at mic
[00:19:11] <irc-> [ron_] opus picked up some contributors via the working group that it would not have picked up otherwise ...
[00:19:35] <irc-> [ron_] if this group picks up even one or two additional expert contributors that would make it well worth it
[00:19:43] <burn> Richard Barnes at mic
[00:20:25] N.e.k.i.t leaves the room
[00:20:31] <David Flynn> ron, there were several hundred attending the JCT-VC meetings, be careful what you wish for
[00:20:36] <burn> Cullen Jennings at mic
[00:20:41] <gmaxwell> We do know of two mostly complete reimplementations of Opus now. (one is by Tim, however)
[00:21:46] <burn> Harald Alvestrand at mic
[00:21:47] <irc-> [ron_] what I'm really saying is that opening the process to *anyone* can only be a good thing, whether they actually come or not
[00:22:11] <Martin Thomson> greg: I think that Skype has an implementation, but I don't know if it is the reference implementation
[00:22:13] <burn> ron_, did you need/want any of your comments at the mic?
[00:22:32] <burn> Stefan Wenger at mic
[00:22:48] <burn> Harald also at mic
[00:22:55] <irc-> [ron_] burn: nah if we're short on time I can say this on the list later :)
[00:23:07] <gmaxwell> (the other is the one libav (ffmpeg) has been working on) There will probably be three full public implementations within a couple months. I think this is impressive considering the reference is liberally licensed so there is a big incentive to not reinvent the wheel even though you can.
[00:23:15] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Interest
[00:23:25] <burn> ron_, +1 on your comments. Experts should also be welcome at IETF
[00:23:41] <Martin Thomson> (btw, I have a copy of the skype implementation on my machine)
[00:23:47] rillian raises a hand
[00:23:58] <irc-> *** ron_ hums
[00:24:02] <burn> 10-11 total raised hands
[00:24:02] katwalsh raises a hand also
[00:24:04] <Erik Lagerway> * raises hand
[00:24:09] Stefan Hacker raises hand
[00:24:11] <irc-> [lu_zero] as libav we prefer to provide alternate implementations when it makes sense (mostly decoders)
[00:24:16] <burn> more on jabber now
[00:24:30] <burn> twice as many raised hands now
[00:25:03] <burn> Peter is talking from the front, btw
[00:25:11] rillian raises a hand
[00:25:17] <irc-> *** oggkoggk raises another
[00:25:20] <irc-> *** jk8 raises hand
[00:25:20] <burn> re testing: maybe 15 in the room
[00:25:21] <rillian> the *same* video, over and over and over... :)
[00:25:26] katwalsh raises hand
[00:25:26] <irc-> *** ron_ raises hand
[00:25:29] Stefan Hacker raises hand
[00:25:35] <irc-> *** lu_zero too
[00:25:35] <katwalsh> rillian: shhhh.
[00:25:35] <hta> as long as it's cats, it's OK :-)
[00:25:43] <Erik Lagerway> +1
[00:25:45] <irc-> [oneman_] I was out for a moment but i suspect I would also raise my hand
[00:25:49] <rillian> hta: hee hee
[00:25:51] <Martin Thomson> the codec had best be good at doing pink
[00:26:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Venue
[00:26:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: WG Formation
[00:26:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Venue
[00:26:26] <gmaxwell> "Cat mode"
[00:26:41] <Martin Thomson> yes, "cat" mode
[00:26:51] <kyle> Sure, we definitely need a new codec just for cats :P.
[00:27:00] <burn> Ted Hardie at the mic
[00:27:09] barryleiba leaves the room
[00:27:10] devnull leaves the room
[00:27:35] <irc-> *** ron_ patents motion prediction based on cat dynamics
[00:28:01] <gmaxwell> Some of that overhead only happens if we're ~largely successful.
[00:28:07] <kyle> This patent has been approved by the feline patent office.
[00:28:34] <Erik Lagerway> Risks are high, and we will likely fail (w3c did) but work should be done.
[00:28:37] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: WG Formation
[00:28:45] <burn> Stefan commenting in the room
[00:28:52] kyle can't hear
[00:28:59] <burn> yeah, same here
[00:29:01] <Martin Thomson> the comment was: "they will not be faster"
[00:29:08] <David Flynn> mic: what can the IETF offer that other SDOs can't?
[00:29:11] <kyle> thx
[00:29:31] <hardie@jabber.psg.com> David: knowledge of the Internet, an IPR policy, and good cookies.
[00:29:33] <kyle> coffee
[00:29:34] <danyork> :-)
[00:29:39] <Stefan Hacker> nom nom
[00:29:43] <rillian> David Flynn: Explicit patent numbers on IPR declarations was one of the points raised earlier
[00:29:44] <David Flynn> the EU got rid of the bad cookies
[00:30:00] <burn> ?? at mic
[00:30:12] <katwalsh> someone is going to be sending the cookies to the jabber room, right?
[00:30:20] <danyork> +1
[00:30:28] kyle wants a cup of coffee.
[00:30:43] <kyle> and cookies
[00:30:54] <rillian> katwalsh: we need a jingle XEP for cookies first, I think
[00:31:08] <Stefan Hacker> rillian, you can send it via avian carrier protocol
[00:31:12] <burn> Greg Maxwell at mic (now)
[00:31:40] <rillian> Stefan Hacker: packet loss might be higher than normal
[00:31:47] <burn> Justin Uberti at mic
[00:32:46] <Stefan Hacker> rillian, you´ll have to make sure the avian carrier cannot peck at the or smell the cookie.
[00:32:47] <burn> Christian Hoene at mic
[00:33:02] <rillian> perhaps we need end-to-end cookie encryption
[00:33:12] <Stefan Hacker> rillian, I propose some form of wrapper
[00:33:14] Anant Narayanan leaves the room
[00:33:36] hta is watching the IETF engage in a dance of self-admiration
[00:33:53] <kyle> security through obscurity. If the avian carrier doesn't know it's a cookie, the packet won't be lost.
[00:34:02] <Martin Thomson> mic: blah blah, wrap it up already
[00:34:05] <burn> Jana Iyengar at mic
[00:34:24] <burn> Martin, say that yourself you wastrel
[00:34:57] <Simon Romano> If the cookie is poisoned, you can inject viruses directly into the packets :-)
[00:35:09] <burn> Kevin Gross at mic
[00:35:10] jmspeex leaves the room
[00:35:39] <Erik Lagerway> +1 Kevin
[00:35:44] <rillian> +1 Kevin
[00:35:46] <burn> Stefan Wenger at mic
[00:35:53] <Jonathan Lennox> 🍪 <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%F0%9F%8D%AA&amp;redirect=no>
[00:35:56] <kyle> But then in that case, the cookie is as good as lost, even if it arrives intact.
[00:35:57] <gmaxwell> hums about to start
[00:36:04] rillian hums
[00:36:07] <John Koleszar> humm
[00:36:09] <burn> Strong hums in room
[00:36:10] Stefan Hacker hummmmmss
[00:36:10] Jan Skoglund leaves the room
[00:36:11] danyork hums
[00:36:12] katwalsh hums
[00:36:13] <Erik Lagerway> humm
[00:36:16] <irc-> [oggkoggk] hmm
[00:36:17] <David Flynn> hmmmmm
[00:36:18] <irc-> *** ron_ hums
[00:36:20] <irc-> [oneman_] hummmmm
[00:36:23] <David Flynn> more information required
[00:36:25] <burn> very few against
[00:36:58] <Martin Thomson> please say: *for* or *against* in the jabber room
[00:36:58] <burn> very strong consensus in support of
[00:37:04] <burn> much lower hum against
[00:37:08] <burn> only a few didn't have enough info
[00:37:10] <danyork> hum *for*
[00:37:29] <Martin Thomson> I think that we got that sense, but the combination of audio and jabber lag is difficult to judge, keep that in mind
[00:37:43] <danyork> Indeed. Good point.
[00:37:45] <burn> martin, I am very aware of jabber lag
[00:37:47] <gmaxwell> Can people repeat with hum for / hum against / hum dunno
[00:37:57] <Stefan Hacker> hum *for*
[00:37:58] <burn> oh, maybe you were talking to danyork
[00:37:58] <John Koleszar> hum for
[00:38:08] <irc-> [ron_] my hum for for, just to be clear, but my lag is long ...
[00:38:09] Erik Lagerway hum for
[00:38:11] <irc-> [oggkoggk] hmm for
[00:38:18] <irc-> [ron_] s/for for/was for/
[00:38:18] <katwalsh> mine was also for.
[00:38:22] <burn> There was a comment that we should find out what the opposing hums were for
[00:38:34] <jesup> any hums against on jabber?
[00:38:35] hildjj leaves the room
[00:38:36] hta leaves the room
[00:38:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentazione interrotta
[00:38:41] <rillian> Thanks for coming everyone
[00:38:46] <rillian> please do follow up on the list
[00:38:46] <burn> Everyone is leaving.
[00:38:55] <irc-> [oneman_] THANKS
[00:38:55] <burn> Thanks remote folks
[00:38:55] Audio videocodec leaves the room
[00:38:55] <Stefan Hacker> Thanks to everyone involved.
[00:38:56] <danyork> Thank you, Dan
[00:38:57] m&m leaves the room: Disconnected: connection closed
[00:38:58] <rillian> burn: thanks very much for bridging!
[00:38:59] Martin Thomson leaves the room
[00:39:08] <irc-> [oggkoggk] Yes, thanks burn
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[00:39:11] <David Flynn> bur, Thank you
[00:39:17] m&m joins the room
[00:39:23] <Erik Lagerway> thx dan!
[00:39:23] <Stefan Hacker> burn, thanks for keeping us informed ;)
[00:39:24] <kyle> Thanks. I enjoyed the talk.
[00:39:25] <John Koleszar> thanks burn!
[00:39:32] danyork leaves the room
[00:39:33] <kyle> and the cookies.
[00:39:36] <gmaxwell> Thank you everyone!
[00:39:44] <gmaxwell> can someone give a final IRC count?
[00:39:50] Stefan Hacker hands kyle a cookie
[00:40:02] Stefan Hacker leaves the room: offline
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[00:40:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> See you tomorrow, hope the streams worked fine for remotes!
[00:40:14] <kyle> Thanks. A very good cookie indeed. IETF cookies are the best.
[00:40:17] <rillian> gmaxwell: 21 participating from irc
[00:40:18] <Lorenzo Miniero> A recording of this BOF will soon be made available
[00:40:27] Yana Stamcheva leaves the room
[00:40:36] burn leaves the room
[00:40:38] <kyle> Thanks for the opus stream.
[00:40:38] <rillian> Lorenzo Miniero: thanks for running the streams
[00:40:52] <Lorenzo Miniero> No opus no party :)
[00:41:00] m&m leaves the room: Disconnected: connection closed
[00:41:04] <Erik Lagerway> thx Lorenzo, stream was fine in Vancouver
[00:41:06] <Simon Romano> :-)
[00:41:07] <David Flynn> Which irc channel are you in today, it might be easier than the web-browser
[00:41:07] cgriffiths leaves the room
[00:41:23] <gmaxwell> I hope everyone on jabber and IRC who hasn't join the list yet joins the list!
[00:41:36] Randall Gellens leaves the room
[00:41:46] <gmaxwell> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/video-codec/current/maillist.html
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[00:43:16] <rillian> David Flynn: the xmpp<->irc bridge was posting to ##IETF_videcodec on irc.freenode.net
[00:43:25] <irc-> [oneman_] 0sec raw recording: http://europa.kradradio.com:8040/ietf_video_codec_wg.opus
[00:43:42] <rillian> we've been coordinating much of the presented work in #theora
[00:43:46] <David Flynn> rillian, ta
[00:43:53] <David Flynn> ok, see yuo there
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[00:44:15] <rillian> David Flynn: Hope so! Would be great to have you around.
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[00:44:53] <kyle> Playing the opus stream in firefox. Sounds just as good as the live stream.
[00:45:52] <irc-> [oneman_] raw recording is the opus stream verbatim
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[00:46:28] <kyle> Very good.
[00:46:38] <rillian> thanks oneman_
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[00:47:43] <irc-> [oneman_] least I could do, thanks for streaming in such a fine IETF codec
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