Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host Identifiers
Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Thu, 05 June 2014 12:48 UTC
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Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 13:48:17 +0100
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, int-area@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host Identifiers
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hiya, On 05/06/14 08:05, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > If you want to review a document with privacy implications then > have a look at the NAT reveal / host identifier work (with > draft-boucadair-intarea-host-identifier-scenarios-04 currently in > a call for adoption). > > I had raised my concerns several times now on the mailing list and > during the meetings. I share those concerns. And adopting this without any consideration of BCP188 would fly in the face of a very recent, very thoroughly discussed, IETF consensus. For something like this, the onus ought IMO be on the proposers to have done that work before asking for adoption. Based on the draft, they clearly have not done that. We could also ask to add more use-cases: use-case#12: spy on everyone more easily, TEMPORA++ use-case#13: sell data that's even more fine-grained than clickstreams use-case#14: expose your n/w internals to help on path attackers use-case#15: track hosts from which people emit "dangerous" utterances use-case#16: block hosts from which people emit "dangerous" utterances use-case#17: charge me more for using two of my computers in my house The set of use-cases presented very much contradicts the explicit claim in the draft that no position is being taken as to the merits of this. IMO that argues strongly to not adopt this. One could also comment on the requirements that seem to require new laws of physics or are otherwise pretty odd: REQ#1: seems to require knowing from packets passing by that a device is a "trusted device" (and REQ#15 says that can be done with 16 bits;-) Hmm... are those qubits maybe? REQ#5: *all* IP packets MUST have a HOST_ID... but presumably without a flag day. Hmm... REQ#6: says this is a transport thing. Eh, why ask INT-AREA? REQ#10+REQ#11: MUST be intradomain only but MUST also be inter domain. Hmm... REQ#18: receiver MUST "enforce policies like QoS." Huh? Such a frankly bogus list of "requirements" also means that this is not something that ought be adopted in the IETF. I also think that this proposal has previously been proposed in other ways and not adopted. Such forum-shopping is yet another reason to not adopt it, and certainly not as an area wg thing without any broader IETF-wide consideration. (As an aside: having to play whack-a-mole with such repeat proposals is one of the downsides of area wgs. Not sure if anything can be done about that though.) In summary: ignoring BCP188, the selection-bias in use cases, the badly thought out "requirements" and forum shopping are all independently sufficient reasons to not adopt this. And of course that doesn't include all the other issues with potential solutions listed in RFC6967 (the reference to which is oddly to the I-D and not the RFC). My conclusion: this one ought go to /dev/null same as the previous attempts to shop the same thing into other parts of the IETF. S > > Ciao Hannes > > > -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Int-area] Call for > adoption of draft-boucadair-intarea-host-identifier-scenarios-04 > Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 04:20:56 +0000 From: Suresh Krishnan > <suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com> To: Internet Area > <int-area@ietf.org> > > > > Hi all, > > This draft was originally intended to be published as an AD > sponsored submission from the OPS area, but the authors have > expressed their interest to continue this work in the intarea wg > given that RFC6269 and RFC6967 originated here. The draft has been > updated to address the issues brought up during earlier > discussions on the wg mailing list and the latest version of the > draft is available at > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-intarea-host-identifier-scenarios-04 > > > This call is being initiated to determine whether there is WG > consensus towards adoption of > draft-boucadair-intarea-host-identifier-scenarios-04 as an intarea > WG draft. Please state whether or not you're in favor of the > adoption by replying to this email. If you are not in favor, please > also state your objections in your response. This adoption call > will complete on 2014-06-19. > > > > Regards > > Suresh & Juan Carlos > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ ietf-privacy > mailing list ietf-privacy@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-privacy > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTkGcRAAoJEC88hzaAX42iFYYIAIlJHJE1BNetIdjhDTqlTfsX w+fFwSpCfi1LzZzxYR+ZgnL96ed8QPJ/YJEb4S1jZ0u2g1+DqMbSMsuQ6aW78+WM iHfyIqO8m7Ahkk1J++/5bK3N0fbqhMjWmqs1cCa7Gg/o9RScZQiMJQef8Iju5gVN 3dnd/7riV9THntV7DQdwGC0SXp9Wfwn2i3oAqxYVpEixCxxGbQBRPIiXBcaLBP4s lr86tLPCPdXB2K4uPsuofVxL/uGBkahF6DAGjq3URcUEVi/J82XL+eB/3bLQU5XG 2Mr0LMu7v4XQ+92zCjm7UmWmiL1fcQ+M0g+5nESSP8bO3sNlFlN33+jzsEGTBRM= =TF0g -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
- [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucadair-i… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… christian.jacquenet
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] WG Adoption Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] WG Adoption Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… bruno.chatras
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Horne, Rob
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Dan Wing
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… Xueli
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Brandon Williams
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Brandon Williams
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… David Singer
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… joel jaeggli
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Dirk.von-Hugo
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… Dirk.von-Hugo
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host I… Brandon Williams
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… S Moonesamy
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… Eggert, Lars
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… Brandon Williams
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… Eggert, Lars
- Re: [Int-area] Call for adoption of draft-boucada… Brandon Williams