NSIS WG Meeting Agenda 1.2 IETF 66 WEDNESDAY, July 12, 2006 0900-1130 Morning Session I Room 520ABC TSV nsis Next Steps in Signaling WG Wednesday, July 12, 2006 1510-1610 Afternoon Session II Room 515 TSV nsis Next Steps in Signaling WG Meeting Minutes: Al Morton Gabor Bajko Victor Fajardo Compiled by Hannes Tschofenig Chair: John Loughney Jabber Scribe: Martin Stimerling http://www3.ietf.org/meetings/ietf-logs/nsis/2006-07-12.html 0) WG Update & Next Steps ------------------------- John Loughney 25 minutes Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-6.ppt Discussion of potential rechartering after completion of existing NSLP work & QoS model work. - GIST should be done - QoS NSLP ready for AD - NAT/FW ready for WGLC - Add NSIS Tunnel & GIST/SCTP to milestone * Rechartering - Done with initial charter, most of the protocols are done - Moving towards deployment/maintenance phase - Missing pieces a. Extensibility draft b. NAT traversal - side discussions on how to do this - discussion with BEHAVE WG. Work should be done in NSIS WG - Implementation issues - Informative document on off-path document - How would people go about in deploying NSIS (guide, security etc) - New NSLPs - Usage case of communications patterns / MRM draft - New QoS models - Folks trying to see how to use NSIS for Controlled Load / PCN work, more long term - How to do interdomain QoS model - Proposal - After sending GIST and others, work on a new charter: - main criteria: move to a deployment stage and maintenance - some level of deployment experience * Discussions - If done correctly, use NSIS as generic signaling for existing signaling - Service schemes: policing for QoS, do not ignore whats happening in TISPAN, etc. - Look at some existing SDOs QoS deployments and see how they can use NSIS - Have one mechanism for all signaling - Tina: Send the work to other SDOs to move to NSIS ? 3GPP also send request to change to NSIS support ? - John: High level proposal on what the goal is - Robert: IETF should work on things that can be taken to other SDOs - Interworking with RSVP part of the charter ?, - John: possible, some proposals needed - John: Follow up with the AD and see whats in scope - come up with a charter proposal - AD: Get some deployment cases to see what needs to get fixed - What is the most important case needed to make NSIS successful. Focus on what is important. - John: Work on a charter that does not cover everything but covers essential items - Henning: Line up a number of reviewers for a document - Robert: Media Independent Handover as GIST extensions - John: Give .21 people tutorial on NSIS as it was done with 3GPP2 - Interest in the diagnostics function ? - new work 1) GIST Update -------------- Robert Hancock 20 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nsis-ntlp Slides can be found here: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-10.ppt - 09 released February - Additional points in the tracker - General concern: to much freedom on setting tunable parameters - For backoff, used SIP as a starting point - default is 500 msec - Henning: Pick a constant value which is safe - ex. TCP does not make it easy to change parameters Users not expected that people would choose the parameter value. Can still be configurable. Applicable to well tuned network where special requirements. - Give some freedom to people and get rid of the crazy value - Could allow T1 to adaptive based on timing info - Handshake lifetime, Robert: recommend 30 seconds - Rate Limiting (1/2): D-mode - Why token bucket ? - Options: Do nothing, Use example normative value, relate to some intuitive sizing, define adaptive scheme - Henning: Using the scheme may have severe network effects. In RTP, value is picked (i.e. 5%). - AD: Take a percentage seems like a reasonable approach - IANA Considerations - John: Original idea - having information on how to implement is useful, separate document - Less restrictive on NSLPID allocations ? - John: Justify why a less restrictive allocations ... etc. 5. NSIS Operation over Tunnel ----------------------------- Henning Schulzrinne 10 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nsis-tunnel-00.txt Slides can be found here: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-17.ppt - Presented tunnel signaling capability discovery - Open issue - Should we discuss other NSLPs in detail ? - John: Not a lot more work to do - Volunteers for review 6. GIST to support SCTP ----------------------- Xiaoming Fu 10 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nsis-ntlp-sctp-00.txt Slides can be found here: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-4.ppt - Status, added a MA-Protoco-Id - Specify how TLS over STCP is used - GIST is made as a modular module - Open issues - How to specify multiple streams - Comments - Can you do DTLS ? - Implementation complexity is present - Applicability statement: Clearly cover partial reliability, just say using basic SCTP - Proposals for next steps is reasonable, check if ready for WGLC 7. GIST FSM ----------- Xiaoming Fu 5 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nsis-ntlp-statemachine-02.txt Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-2.ppt - Better understanding of GIST - FSMs for two peering GIST nodes - Next steps - Concrete examples on how GIST delivers messages - Implementation status (Univ of Goettnig) - 2 Open source implementations, 3 or 5 vendor implementations - Backoff already appears - Interop would be nice 8) NAT-FW NSLP Update Martin Stimerling 15 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nsis-nslp-natfw-11.txt Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-16.ppt - 3GPP2 WG is in favor of path-coupled NSIS - NSIS NATFW NSLP is the NFCCP - John: 3gpp2 has some specific needs for thier architecture - small extenstions for thier specifc model - Issues: - Who is defining NSLP object space ? - not GIST - SDA - old, needs reworked - Terminology issues - REA naming problems because of semantic changes over time so seems inappropriate - NAT-PT usage (2766) - Support has been removed - where to go with NAT-PT support ? - DTINFO issues - Change to MUST be included for DTINFO_IPv4 - DTINFO_IPv6 was removed: keep it removed - TRACE semantics - Define simple semantics - Overall semantics still shaky - TRACE issues - Which type of info should be conveyed - NATs: which IP to report - other issues - Comments: - John: Try to get open issues resolved Assume we get a second WGLC 9. QoS update ------------- Jukka Manner 20 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nsis-qos-nslp Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-8.pdf - QoS NLSP - Todo: - Re-read IANA considerations - Proxy Mode - Two new bits to support porxy mode - Some support for it - Robert: Do it in this version - significant in structural point of view, easier in the implementation point of view, complexity is already in the GIST - John: Work through the GIST. If more discussion then leave it for later - Martin: In favor of proxy-mode - Consensus: Put it in the base spec - Comments: If this will introduce complexity then we should talk about it 10. QoS template ---------------- Attila Bader 5 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nsis-qspec-10.txt Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-5.ppt - Updates after IETF65 in first slides - Status - No major open issues in QSPEC draft - John: WGLC has ended. There is a need for another revision. Just send list of changes and make sure everybody is happy with it and resend for AD review 11. RMD update -------------- Attila Bader 10 min. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nsis-rmd-07.txt Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-3.ppt - Updates after IETF65 in first slides - Status - Under last call - Dependency on QSpec Tmplate and QoS NSLP - No major issues - John: Read and send comments 12. Controlled Load Service QoS Model ------------------------------------- Xiaoming Fu 5 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kappler-nsis-qosmodel-controlledload-04.txt Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-1.ppt - Open issues - John: People are interested. Get feedback on interworking with avaiable models. Get feedback on the WG based on their deployment needs - Comments: Why no interworking with RSVP ? Try to find uses cases for it. 13. Applicability environment in the mobile environment ------------------------------------------------------- Seong-Ho Jeong 10 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nsis-applicability-mobility-signaling-05.txt Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-14.ppt - Issues tracking since 05 presented - New issues: key exchange - Next steps: - Solve security related issues - John: Request implementors to read the draft to verify - Discussions: - John: How to reuse 3gpp QoS with NSIS protocols. Look at GSMA models. What we dont want to say is NSIS is telling 3gpp how to thier QoS models. Maybe applicability statement on how to use NSIS protocol in the 3gpp environment. - AD: Applicability is acceptable for the moment. Anything more we need liasons. - Maybe we need to talk to the liasons. Timing maybe rigth. 5) Discussion of working on Partly-Decoupled Signalling - 20 minutes Robert Hancock 10 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hancock-nsis-pds-problem-03.txt Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-9.ppt John: well scoped and defined. Is this sufficient as a starting point for path decoupled signalling? John: Wg to adopt it? 3 people explicitely supporting it. Consensus in adopting it as a wg item. John needs to ask the AD if this fits into the current wg charter. Verify consensus on the mailing list. If AD agrees as well, it will be adopted as a wg draft. Open mic discussion 10 minutes 6) HyPath QoS Model ------------------- Luis Cordeiro 10 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-cordeiro-nsis-hypath-01 Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-12.ppt John: leave more time for the wg to comment, before adopting as a wg item. 7) Communication Patterns for NSIS ---------------------------------- Martin Stiemerling 5 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stiemerling-nsis-mrm-patterns-00.txt Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-11.ppt John: Defining new MRM should have some applications associated with it. Take an application and verify if the MRM defined is correct. Continue as an individual draft for the time being. Can this be used for traffic engineering? Maybe, not sure. 8) Authorization for NSIS Signaling Layer Protocols --------------------------------------------------- Jukka Manner 15 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-manner-nsis-nslp-auth-01.txt Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-7.pdf John: would this auth object be needed in deployments? Someone from Lucent: How does this relate to Diameter qos auth? QoS req is auth based on the auth token this is only one piece in the puzzle. Tina: What about tokenless authorisation? Jukka: It is possible. Tina: Would it be investigated? Jukka: Might be target for a new draft. Consensus to adopt it as a wg item. Another check on the mailing list to be done. 9) InterDomain-QOSM: The NSIS QOS Model for Inter-domain Signaling to Enable End-to-End QoS Provisioning Over Heterogeneous Network Domains --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Georgios Karagiannis 10 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-zhang-nsis-interdomain-qosm-02.txt Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-13.ppt Nobody read the draft, will not be adopted as wg draft. 10) Metering NSLP ----------------- Juergen Quittek 10 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fessi-nsis-m-nslp-framework-03.txt http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dressler-nsis-metering-nslp-04.txt Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-19.ppt 11) MIPv6 FW ------------ Xiaoming Fu 10 minutes http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-thiruvengadam-nsis-mip6-fw-04.txt Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-15.ppt GIST NAT Travesal ----------------- No time for the presentation. Slides can be found at: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06jul/slides/nsis-18.ppt