Technical Plenary

1. Welcome and introduction (Leslie Daigle)

2. IAB Chair Report (Leslie Daigle)
see slides

3. IRTF Report (Aaron Falk)
see slides

4. Technical Presentations:

4a. Highlights from draft-iab-net-transparent
    (Bernard Aboba)
see slides

Eliot Lear: there are barriers in terms of renumbering for large
corporations and networks. Points renumbering RFC (RFC 4192?).

4b. Readout from Unwanted Traffic Workshop
    (Danny McPherson & Loa Andersson)
see slides

Sam Hartman: not sure how such an interesting workshop got quite such
a boring summary? He wants to encourage everyone to read the actual
report. This is important. It may be old news to you, but it has not
started reaching protocol design yet.

Bob Briscoe: the solutions do not mention congestion control.

Dave Crocker: glad Sam made that comment. Threats have been known for
quite a few years. To my knowledge, there are no known solutions
(misleading term), only suggestions. The thing that is saving us so
far is that the bad guys want the Internet to be running, too. Not sure
what the purpose of this workshop was.

Leslie: the goal of the workshop and of the report is primarily
consciousness raising.

Bob Braden: did you consider the flip side of this problem: the
solutions can be used by governments to surpress and tap information

Danny: yes, we did consider that.

Stewart Bryant: how much of this is actually in the Operating System?

Danny: everyone has to do their parts, the IETF, the OS developers etc.

Stewart: if we could achieve the OSes to be less vulnerable, that
might help.

Eliot: would like to ask the IAB where they think the gaps are several
years out.

Merike Kaeo: teaches on security. Nobody wants to pay for it. A huge part is education. Even at the ietf, there are protocols being designed
without security being included. Security is often added later as an
add-on. It needs to be an integral part from the start. There are also
a lot of security mechanisms out that are not deployed. Security needs
to be addressed at all levels: vendor, user, education, protocol
design.

Bob Hinden: we should not spend too much time making things
perfect. we shpuld ship things faster and make deployment easier.

Eric Burger: if we don't help fix it, governments will fix it and we
might not want that.

Loa Andersson: doesn't think thsat all this is old news. We need to
raise awareness in the entire community. It is a community issue.

Eric Rescorla: does security for a living. He came out of the workshop
pretty pessimistic. Merike had it right: the situation is far worse than
what he was aware of. This was an elightning experience. We should be
afraid.

Bernard Aboba: the resources that are available to the 'bad guys' are
amazing. Vast criminal conglomerate where spam was just one business,
phishing and DDOS are others, etc.

Paul Ferguson: did the workshop come up with ideas on how to move
forward on these actionable items?  He is a co-author on RFC 2827 and
would be happy to pick this up again.


4c. Readout from the Routing & Addressing Workshop
    (Dave Meyer & Chris Morrow)
see slides

Heated discussion about the growth curve: is really exponential or
polynomial or linear growth.

Dave Meyer: in the defense of those looking at he growth and producing
these graphs and statistics: it is not an easy task to analyse the
data and then project the growth and produce these graphs.

Vince Fuller: if everyone is switching on IPv6, the growth of the
routing table is really very significant

Alain Durand: but not everyone is switching it on at once.

Margaret Wasserman: questions the assumption that everyone will keep
running IPv4 and IPv6 in parallel. Part of the reason that we have
been developing and deploying IPv6 was to reduce the use of IPv4.

Chris ??: IPv4 routability will have to be provided for a very long time

Peter Lothberg: solution would be not to deploy IPv6

Brian Carpenter: somewhere v4 deployment will stop, because we are
running out of the v4 addresses. Also, things might be done differently
in the future.

Dave Meyer: there is clearly disagreemnt about this point. This is
fine. We are trying to find out if there are other issues that need to
be taken into account when making these projections.

Alain: refers to RFC1380 - at that time there were 16,000 routes in
the routing table and the sky was falling.

Vince: yes, but that was before CIDR!

Peter Lothberg: there are things that we cannot do with today's
architecture. This limits the functionality for users.

??: believes addressing should become before routing. we should maybe
look at addressing mechanisms and those will then determine routing
mechanisms.

Leslie presents her  slides -- proposals for where from here.

Sam: likes to remind people of previous work on this: a
presentation given by Radia Perlman
(http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/02mar/slides/plenary-3/index.html)
on how we can all work better together. He finds this is important
because much of the previouis work was coloured by ROUGH
consensus. Some people dropped out of the process because of that.  He
believes we need to commit to working together and listening to each
other and to expect everyone in the process would do the same.  If
someone has a new draft or suggestion don't just dismiss it because it
has been brought up before. We should make sure we don't drive
constituencies away.

Bob Hinden: is pleased that we are starting to work on routing again
in a serious way. Honestly, the routing is not that different between
IPv4 and IPv6. When we approach this problem we shold not restrict
ourselves to how we handle things today and how routers work today.
We probably need to replace BGP.

Chris Morrow: we're not trying to propse that BGP is the right answer.
At the workshop we said: maybe BGP is not the right answer.

Ross Callon: this topic could touch on a number of very different
issues: who would be interested in participating in such a BoF (show
of hands)

(many hands go up)

Ross: looks like there should be a Plenary size BoF. People seem to
like that idea.

Erik Nordmark: how can we go deal with the fact that this might cover
very diverse issues and transition mechanisms. Has this been thought
about?

Leslie: that was Ross' point that this will actually affect others
than just routing experts.

Margaret: I think that this is a very real problem, not in 2011, but
today. There are a lot of different places where we can work on this
problem. The IETF only owns part of the problem space. Important to
continue to talk with ISPs. Enterprise managers also need to be
involved.

Dave Meyer: thinks that while some people believe GSE is a potential
candidate solution, there is a realisation that this was a very drafty
idea and clearly needs to be thought more through.

Leslie: pointers to previous work will be included on the IAB pages

Ted Hardie: we might lose basic characteristics of the Internet we
care about if we don't ge this right. We might have to do radical
changes. If we really want e2e with smart end-points and a dumb middle,
we might want to make the end-points recognise where they are in the
routing system.


5. IAB open Mic

Peter Lothberg: [on unwanted traffic topic] we're talking about people
misusing the network and about mechanisms how to take care of it. There
are things that can be done to the network today that would make it go
away and technology cannot prevent that. Why are we trying to solve
everything with technology? A lot of this are social issues or police
issues.

Bernard: we need to think of it (the network) as a right and not a
privilege

Kurtis Lindqvist: there should be a legal system where we can track
down people that do bad things on the Internet. Mostly these bad
actions are not even illegal. Would be nice if the Internet Governance
discussions would address that.

Ross Callon: there was a suggestion to extend the BCP on source
address filtering.  BCPs for securing the network are in preparation
in the OPS area.  People said that it is a good thing that those bad
guys have an interest in having the Internet up and running, because
they make money on it. But there might be people who are interested in
making the network go away and just don't have the technical skills yet
to do that.

Bernard: you can find that capability on the net today!

Lixia Zhang: education is key towards reducing the problems in a larger scale.

Ileana Leuca: agrees with Ted.
Rapporteuer between IETF and OMA. Thanks individuals in the IETF to
finalise more than 15 RFCs and I-Ds in the area of terminal security
etc.

Dave Nelson: suggests we improve the Internet protocols to make it more
expensive to abuse the system.

Craig ??: we are leaders and we need to use that influence on other
communities to deploy good mechanisms. Maybe we need more BCPs.

Elwyn: ultimately we need to reduce the value to those bad guys.