DetNet BoF Minutes For IETF 93 > > Assigned minute taker: Diego Dujovne > > MONDAY, July 20, 2015 > 1300-1500 Afternoon Session I > Location: Grand Hilton Ballroom > > Presentation Start Time Information > 0 13:00 Title: Administrivia & Intro > Presenter: Chairs > Slides: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-detnet-0.pptx > Slides: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-detnet-0.pdf (pdf links are broken, use .pptx) Lou Berger and Pat Thaler chair the BoF Pat presents opening slides to set the context for the BOF > 1 13:20 Title: User's view > Presenter: Jouni Korhonen, Pascal Thubert, Craig Gunther, Patrick Wetterwald, Subir Das > Slides: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-detnet-1.pptx > Slides: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-detnet-1.pdf Jouni Presentes slides. Mary Barnes asks for the pdf of the slides. Craig continues: (A/V applications) Example: Live show audio reproduction requirements (strict requirement) recording: Soft requirements: Sync, but not realtime. Example: Key adjustment for singers Multiple streams of audio on the same cable. Interconnection between TV studios; e.g. 46Tbps of data on fiber. Intserv (local) and Diffserv (wide) in Ralph Droms: Question: Configuration Timeframe for this application? Craig Gunther: Base configuration and dynamic behavior on top Patrick continues with the slides: Electric Grid reliability Symmetric latency on the line Optimize telecom network: OT/IT integrated network, delay restrictions giventhe distances Current solutions: TDM, no mixing of IT/OT New requirements from: IEC61850 The utility controls everything (can live with distributed but they like centralized) Lou Berger: these slides only describe the presenters point of view, Not chartered work items Subir Das continues with the Building Automation Systems Different protocols on field networks and local controllers, lack of security on protocols Pascal continues with the slides: Industrial applications. Points out the relevance of wireless on deterministic networks. Applications for large scale monitoring Mix deterministic and stochastic traffic; manage them as independent flows. Virtualized operational technology to guarantee transmission from sensor through backbone to the actuator somewhere else. Use case is Industrial Internet. Industrial Networks have been deterministic for 40 years and deterministic Wireless appeared 10 years ago. But still silo'ed and cannot benefit from IT technology. Goal is now to lower cost and improve ROI of networks. Cost can be lowered by converging networks with IT to reduce OPEX. ROI can be improved by augmenting efficiency of processes using large scale (stochastic) monitoring and big data. Jouni continues with the presentation. Application: Connectivity between Remote radios and baseband processing units. Also connectivity between base stations, and between core networks and the base stations. Next generation systems have 10-times more strict end to end delay requirements than before/current systems Summarizes the most relevant points: - Time sensitiveness, - Open standards - Mix of different types of traffic Lou Berger: asks for comments/questions on the user presentations John Dowdel: deterministic ethernet applications. Some IPR already present in the aeronautic field Lou Berger: The IETF has rules related to IPR disclosure, all contributors to IETF process are expected to follow these rules. Adrian Farrel: It sounds like there is some disagreement between the presented requirements. Connection Running IP over determinstic layer 2, or interconnect L2 islands Lou Berger: You pick up on there being two different scenarios being requested. It is for the charter/WG do discuss which or both are covered and what order to address these. ...? :Which of these different use cases / scenarios are in scope? Lou Berger: Please re ask question as part of the scope discussion. > 2 14:00 Title: DetNet Problem Statement (including example possible/plausible solutions) > Presenter: Norman Finn > Slides: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-detnet-2.pptx > Slides: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-detnet-2.pdf Norm starts presentation. Main tasks: - Eliminate congestion generated packet loss (reserve resources) using max buffer allocation - Seamless redundancy, eliminate duplicates in intermediate routers Questions: ...?: Once organized suggest collaborate with research two functionalities information delivery aggregation... other application with dedicated BW underneath. it may not achieve both together. Mixture of the traffic(?) already done? That is a question for the group David Black: Why a single encapsulation? Lou Berger: Scope discussion Pascal: there are different type of applications that may or may not need all the features. Some of the requirements (10 to the minus 12) may not fit to the wireless, but it may improve wireless reliability. > 3 14:20 Title: Working group scope and deliverables discussion > Presenter: Chair moderated > Slides: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-detnet-3.pptx > Slides: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-detnet-3.pdf Lou Berger:presents the scope. Erik Nordmark: Control plane? Lou: The control plane is intended to be a superset of distributed control plane and centralized controllers > 14:50 Title: Concluding discussion & polling > Presenter: Chairs James Loewe: Environment from use cases: solutions to be provided for the mentioned aspects. Will applied to support these use vertical cases or the solutions as systems. Will be cross domain (different operators managing the networks for a single domain? requirements single domain? Lou Berger: Use cases to support: Breakdown: interconnected islands and end-to-end. Users say they like this in scope, they may be building a product on these. Erik Nordmark: Sequency? Deliver something useful to start from a single application, and add another use case...? Lou Berger:That may fall on the second case Ralph Droms: Sense of the amount of work Lou Berger: 18-24 months. Reasonable time? Ralph Droms: Optimistic. Base this on milestones. Norman Finn: Techonologies for all the pieces. It won' t be exactly for the applications, but it would be for the main scope Pat: Multiple domains might not be achievable in 24 months. Single domain should be. Lou: Depending on the techonology we piggyback on, we will need cross-domain or not. Subir Das: Which is the best bet, specifically on packet loss. Tested on wireless or wireline? Pat: Should be wire/wireless agnostic. Address both, even though the differences We define what is going on the router level: interfaces. Subir Das: We need mapping information about the low-level hardware used. Meeting reasonable timelines should be part of the initial scope independently of the Control plane no specific delivery but data flow information model. can it be included there? Lou: on the architecture deliverable Ralph Droms: Solutions space: considerations to interact with the IEEE, no references on the description. Pat: queueing, forwarding and policy managing, coordination with IEEE? if there is something not specificed, we must collaborate with IEEE Norman: In an application we don't care wether is using a specific cable or going through a bridge or a satellite link. it is an IP application. My PC should not care, only the service oriented, request the service from the router. Lou Berger: asks for the feeling on the room Is this a problem that should be solved (TSN over routers)? (say about 50%) Should we, the IETF work on this problem (about the same) Who thinks the stated deliverables can be completed in a reasonable time*? (say about 25%) Andrew Sullivan? ok problem, not reasonable time? Acee Lindem: that would be a surprise to have this on 24 months Deborah's point: only the deliverables on the slide David Black: there is no nail on the floor saying we are going to do THIS. Not boil the ocean Subir Das: Reasonable time: problem-solution Lou: data plane, architecture documents close to the IESG Kireeti Kompella: whatever you do, dont break my hardware. Alia Atlas: On reasonable time, focus on interoperable standards and getting the solvable pieces done Who is willing to author, review and otherwise contribute to a DetNet WG? (About the same number, say 20-30) Deborah Brungard: Asks for feedback, even privately. New to determine level of interest and if doable in reasonable time. Lou Berger: Comment on the ML for the group proposed charter. > Adjourn 15:00