IETF
hybi@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, 28 July 2011< ^ >
sm has set the subject to: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/hybi/agenda
Room Configuration

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[13:36:09] stpeter has set the subject to: HYBI WG | http://tools.ietf.org/wg/hybi/ | IETF 81 | audio at http://ietf81streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf801.m3u | slides at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/81/materials.html#wg-hybi
[13:37:03] <stpeter> the meeting starts at 21:40 UTC -- 8 hours from now
[13:37:06] <stpeter> just so you know :)
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[21:34:40] <frank.salim> hello
[21:34:56] <sm> Hi
[21:35:58] <frank.salim> i hear some jokers on the audio stream
[21:36:33] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> meetecho does not appear to be open yet?
[21:36:49] <sm> I am not on meetecho
[21:38:59] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> If meetecho is not working, does anybody have a link to slides?
[21:39:41] <tyoshino> here? https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/81/materials.html
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[21:40:03] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> thanks
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[21:41:46] <stpeter> slides and audio streams are shown in the room subject of the jabber room
[21:41:57] <stpeter> but perhaps your IM client doesn't show you those
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[21:42:53] <sm> http://ietf81streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf801.m3u
[21:43:17] <MeetechoSlides> @gregwilkins Meetecho is working now :)
[21:43:28] <stpeter> chairs are about to start things off
[21:43:32] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 1: ??
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[21:45:09] <MeetechoSlides> Meetecho session is at http://www.meetecho.com/ietf81/hybi
[21:45:18] <stpeter> Kepeng Li will record action items
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[21:45:23] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 2: ??
[21:45:30] <MeetechoSlides> note well
[21:45:37] <barryleiba> Note the "Note Well" well.
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[21:45:57] <barryleiba> Alexey gets 80 minutes!
[21:45:59] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 4: Agenda
[21:46:00] <barryleiba> He RATES!
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[21:46:15] <sm> One minute per draft revision :-)
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[21:47:01] <MeetechoSlides> Presentation stopped
[21:47:06] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> start again from scratch I think.... some wrong ideas there
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[21:47:15] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 1: Open Issues/IETF LC feedback on draft-ie
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[21:48:28] <stpeter> technical difficulties :)
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[21:48:53] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 2: Major Issues
[21:48:54] <barryleiba> Hiding in plain sight.
[21:49:04] <barryleiba> Caché en plein soleil.
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[21:49:34] <martin.thomson> there isn't much opportunity to hide in this room
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[21:50:29] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 3: Major Issues
[21:50:34] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 2: Major Issues
[21:50:47] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> \O/ re deflate-stream
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[21:52:16] <stpeter> Richard Barnes at the mic
[21:52:49] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> is room mic turned on?
[21:53:00] <stpeter> it should be
[21:53:02] <martin.thomson> did you hear Richard?
[21:53:05] <stpeter> did you not hear what Richard said?
[21:53:10] <stpeter> :)
[21:53:11] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> very soft
[21:53:18] <martin.thomson> we can move him to the other mic
[21:53:33] <stpeter> gregwilkins@jabber.org: did you hear what I said about consensus calls?
[21:53:42] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> yes
[21:53:52] <Bruce Atherton> I heard Richard clearly through Meetecho.
[21:54:15] <martin.thomson> is there anyone here who has any problems with the consensus calls as made on the slide?
[21:54:15] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> OK. I'll switch feeds...
[21:54:24] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> yes
[21:54:27] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> but soft
[21:54:29] <stpeter> ok
[21:54:30] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> that was better
[21:54:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> rtsp://conf.meetecho.com/5550808.sdp
[21:54:46] <Lorenzo Miniero> this is the RTSP stream
[21:54:49] stpeter isn't going to mess with the gain levels but we can ask people to use the other mic
[21:55:04] <sm> Or ask people to speak louder
[21:55:23] <rlb> stpeter: so which mic should we use?
[21:55:32] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> I think speaking louder should do it
[21:55:32] <stpeter> rlb: the front one
[21:55:44] <sm> I hear alexey clearly
[21:56:26] <stpeter> sm: ok
[21:59:19] <Ted Hardie> Hmm, I do not see a request to review the WS URI scheme to uri-review, was there a request in the past?
[21:59:40] <martin.thomson> there was, a long time ago
[21:59:42] <martin.thomson> I think
[21:59:48] <mcmanus> I've been asked about interactions with other HTTP security technologies - especially HSTS and mixed content (i.e loading ws:// from an https:// context)
[22:00:53] <Ted Hardie> Also, there is an issue that the text in Section 3 and the text in the IANA registration seems to have a minor contradiction on the use of query parts.
[22:00:54] <martin.thomson> mcmanus: a serious concern and one that should be considered (I don't think that it's hard for HSTS), add CSP too
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[22:01:25] <mcmanus> yes on CSP.
[22:01:26] <stpeter> Ted Hardie: I'll check the archives
[22:01:40] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> Does the current API draft allow access to set headers for things like OAUTH? I think protocol allows it, but I don't think there is browser access
[22:01:48] <Ted Hardie> Thanks. The other issue is this text: URI scheme semantics.
The only operation for this scheme is to open a connection using
the WebSocket protocol.
[22:02:15] <Ted Hardie> That might be taken to mean that the path and query can be ignored. It opens a connection and identifies a resource
[22:02:37] <stpeter> Ted Hardie: August 7, 2009: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/uri-review/current/msg00883.html
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[22:03:10] <mcmanus> re: redirect API. we've discussed developing a JS API that would allow sensible filtering of redirects.. nothing concrete on that. But would hopefully allow us to move past all or nothing.
[22:03:30] <Ted Hardie> The text has changed significantly (and the original message pointed to the wrong section). It couldn't hurt to run it past the elves again.
[22:03:51] <stpeter> mcmanus / greg etc. -- if you want us to relay things to the meeting, please preface with "MIC"
[22:03:55] <stpeter> Ted Hardie: agreed
[22:04:12] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 3: Major Issues
[22:04:18] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> MIC: Does the current API draft allow access to set headers for things like OAUTH? I think protocol allows it, but I don't think there is browser access
[22:04:46] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> MIC: Does the current API draft allow access to set headers for things like OAUTH? I think protocol allows it, but I don't think there is browser access
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[22:05:12] <stpeter> kepeng_li\40jabber.org: please capture an action item for the chairs/editors to ask for double-checking of the URI schemes by the uri-review discussion list
[22:06:01] <mcmanus> greg - I don't believe so.
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[22:15:20] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> MIC: so you can use any name you like.... except one starting with x- ???
[22:15:33] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 4: Major Issues
[22:15:52] <kepeng_li\40jabber.org> speaking as minutes taker, what is the conclusion for the "x-" issue?
[22:16:06] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> retract my MIC above
[22:16:09] <linuxwolf> I heard "take it to the list"
[22:16:21] <kepeng_li\40jabber.org> ok, thanks, linuxwolf
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[22:16:28] <linuxwolf> s/heard/interpreted/ (-:
[22:17:30] <cabo> Duh, this is not for humans, but for engineers… Add language-tags on the header names, too, otherwise.
[22:17:33] <martin.thomson> so I think that I just disagreed with peter (and agreed with pete): using #sadogihsogijs#Foo instead of just using Foo is semantically identical to "x-"
[22:17:46] <stpeter> kepeng_li\40jabber.org: we will discuss the "x-" issue on the list
[22:17:57] <stpeter> ah, what linuxwolf said :)
[22:18:28] <kepeng_li\40jabber.org> get it, Peter
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[22:20:34] <hildjj> BIKESHED!
[22:20:53] <hildjj> that's really Ted.
[22:21:25] <cabo> This mic is off — we only hear echo.
[22:22:00] <kepeng_li\40jabber.org> Peter is going to fix it, cabo
[22:22:25] <stpeter> I moved the other mic
[22:22:30] <cabo> Thanks!
[22:22:31] <Ted Hardie> Certainly, my commentary was an echo from the past...
[22:22:35] <stpeter> :)
[22:23:19] <cabo> +1
[22:23:33] <kepeng_li\40jabber.org> what is the result for the language?
[22:23:35] <Ted Hardie> Better waste our time on this than DNS SRV, I guess
[22:24:09] <martin.thomson> ietf@ietf.org witnessed the fury of hybi with that SRV discussion
[22:24:46] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> that was fury-lite.... and echo of days past
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[22:24:58] <martin.thomson> greg: oh yeah
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[22:26:32] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> MIC: Isn't cookie usage an issue for the user-agent and it's security settigs?
[22:26:48] <stpeter> kepeng_li\40jabber.org: I think the language resolution was to say that the reason code MUST NOT be shown to the user
[22:27:08] <kepeng_li\40jabber.org> ok,
[22:27:40] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> big delay on my audio stream sorry
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[22:30:31] <MeetechoSlides> @gregwilkins if you want we have a (lower quality) real time audio stream at rtsp://conf.meetecho.com/5550808.sdp
[22:30:49] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 5: Major Issues
[22:32:11] <martin.thomson> richard barnes at mic
[22:33:23] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> I've switched to the rtsp and it is much better
[22:33:32] <MeetechoSlides> ;)
[22:33:35] <linuxwolf> we also stopped using one of the mics
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[22:36:00] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> not exactly "this behaviour".
[22:37:18] <frank.salim> i am interested in the fraction of users who are affected by this who also have flash and java plugins in their browsers
[22:37:49] <Bruce Atherton> The issue is that browsers don't ship with flash or java plugins.
[22:38:16] <frank.salim> they actually do. chrome is literally a browser with flash baked in
[22:39:10] <Bruce Atherton> Ok. Others (without flash or java plugins) have said they won't support Websockets without some solution for the problem.
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[22:40:18] <martin.thomson> in all seriousness, who can use a browser without flash?
[22:40:33] <mcmanus> mic: browser and server colluding is an impt point and part of what makes websockets special in this case. Consider the cross protocol issues we saw with just http form post, and websockets is much more capable. Belt and suspenders provided by masking is completely appropriate.
[22:41:21] <Bruce Atherton> martin: Enterprises that are not comfortable with downloaded code opening raw sockets inside their network.
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[22:45:57] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> MIC: was the prior suggestion for a max size header, was it for max frame or max message or both?
[22:46:16] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 6: Minor Issues
[22:48:34] <martin.thomson> greg, I think that richard was suggesting that we pick one of the multiple options for having big messages
[22:49:45] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> martin, sure - but if we have 63 bit frames but nobody ever sets a max header that allows them to be sent.... that will be strange
[22:49:57] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> but can talk on list for this
[22:50:02] <martin.thomson> no, that will be reality
[22:50:14] <martin.thomson> there's always stuff in protocols that never gets used :)
[22:50:44] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> true, and I can live with unused 63 bit frames.
[22:53:40] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> if we have application error codes, will we have application error strings?
[22:54:24] <paraboul> by reading the application documentation?
[22:54:50] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> do we need extensible error messages? HTTP gets by with 500 for application errors
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[22:57:07] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 7: Minor Issues
[22:57:48] <jre> (now listening if I need to clarify something)
[22:57:55] <stpeter> jre: thanks
[22:58:46] <jre> how does quoting affect that? That comment doesn't make sense.
[22:58:51] <martin.thomson> we're asking about your quoted string thing
[22:58:58] <jre> no, it'sd making it more complicated
[22:59:21] <jre> the same way as the token value
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[22:59:41] <jre> I didn't understand the points against allowing
[23:00:30] <Bjoern> jre, link to your issue?
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[23:00:48] <stpeter> jre: do you want to defer to the mailing list?
[23:00:48] <martin.thomson> ian says "too hard to add to API"
[23:00:53] <jre> let's do this on the mailing list
[23:01:24] <jre> there are no additional cosndierations re character sets
[23:01:40] <jre> Bjoern: link where?
[23:01:53] <jre> the API should be the same.
[23:01:59] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 8: Minor Issues
[23:02:09] <jre> (I'm still istening, Alexey :-)
[23:02:24] <Bjoern> A link to the message in the mailing list archive where you raised the issue?
[23:03:22] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 9: Editorial/nits
[23:03:56] <jre> Bjoern: aha. Wait.
[23:04:16] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 10: Editorial/nits
[23:04:19] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 11: Raised, but not issues
[23:05:30] <Bjoern> jre, http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg67478.html maybe?
[23:06:05] <jre> Bjoern, I foound http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg07733.html
[23:06:13] <MeetechoSlides> Presentation stopped
[23:06:21] <jre> probably the same thread
[23:06:31] jre keeps hearing talk about beers
[23:06:31] <Bjoern> indeed, I'll have a look
[23:06:44] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 1: WebSockets: Compression and Multiplexing
[23:07:04] <jre> Bjoern, just trying to prevent more special-casing
[23:07:08] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 2: Compression
[23:08:21] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 3: Compression
[23:09:28] <gregwilkins@jabber.org> Also individual messages can opt out of compression if RSV bit is used
[23:09:57] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 4: Compression
[23:11:29] <MeetechoSlides> Slide 5: Multiplexing
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[23:15:17] <stpeter> timeouts? sounds like BOSH :)
[23:16:01] <linuxwolf> ....
[23:16:11] <stpeter> Kepeng Li at the mic
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[23:16:47] <kepeng_li\40jabber.org> yes, thanks Peter
[23:16:56] <kepeng_li\40jabber.org> I forgot to mention my name
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[23:17:14] <stpeter> meeting adjourned
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[23:17:23] <Alex from Meetecho> By everybody from the Meetecho Team!
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[23:17:36] <Alex from Meetecho> the recording of this session will be posted soon
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[23:17:38] <MeetechoSlides> the recording of this session will be available at http://www.ietf.org/meeting/81/remote-participation.html#Meetecho
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[23:17:45] <martin.thomson> timeouts would advise peers on how to minimize pings/pongs
[23:17:47] <MeetechoSlides> bye bye
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[23:18:00] <Wenbo Zhu> flow-control likely has to be involved as part of multiplexing.
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