IETF
IASA 20
iasa20@jabber.ietf.org
Wednesday, March 29, 2017< ^ >
Room Configuration
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GMT+0
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[18:04:15] <Dan York (scribe)> I'll be scribing.
[18:04:18] <Dan York (scribe)> Do we have anyone remote
[18:04:25] <Dan York (scribe)> ?
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[18:05:12] <Barry Leiba> I'm near the front mic, so I'll be happy to channel people who put "MIC" in front of their messages.
[18:05:39] <Dan York (scribe)> Looking around the physical room, I see pretty much everyone who is also in the Jabber room.
[18:05:48] <Dan York (scribe)> So does anyone here need Jabber-scribing?
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[18:15:56] <Dan York (scribe)> If there is anyone remote, please put "MIC" at the beginning of anything you'd like to relay to the mic and either Barry or I can relay.
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[18:18:38] <ajs> I have never understood how “transparency” is increased by incredibly MEGO presentations at plenary
[18:18:58] <Barry Leiba> Indeed.
[18:18:58] <ajs> I think the mode of writing fairly detailed reports that get sent round _before_ the plenary is better
[18:19:01] resnick joins the room
[18:19:17] <ajs> it means questions can reasonably be prepared and sometimes even a reasonable answer provided
[18:19:29] <Aaron Falk> "transparency theater"
[18:19:39] <Alissa Cooper> the IAOC did write a long form report this time :)
[18:19:40] <ajs> and, you know, we can use the _Internet_ for that, so you don’t have to be in the room to get the message either
[18:19:43] <ajs> yes, exactly
[18:19:54] <ajs> I think it is a great thing and I’m very happy to see that
[18:19:59] <ajs> (re: report)
[18:20:06] akatlas joins the room
[18:23:13] <resnick> Except for one mention of the word “priorities”, I feel like there’s an unnamed elephant in the room re: Conflicts of interest between ISOC and IETF. Am I missing something?
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[18:23:46] <ajs> I don’t know
[18:23:47] <Alissa Cooper> what do you mean by conflicts of interest?
[18:25:52] <resnick> There are clearly times where ISOC’s priorities and IETF’s priorities diverge. It *should* be the case that IASA is representing IETF’s priorities and perhaps negotiating with ISOC to accommodate their’s. But I suspect that there’s a presumption sometimes that ISOC’s priorities come first.
[18:26:15] <resnick> Seems like IASA 2.0 should be dealing with that issue.
[18:26:22] <Alissa Cooper> agree
[18:26:40] <ajs> Why do you suspect that?  (I agree we should cope with it anyway, but maybe you have specific cases in mind?)
[18:27:42] <resnick> I do, but I guess I’m hesitating because of the public nature of this room….
[18:28:22] JoeHallCDT joins the room
[18:29:00] resnick cogitates safe topics
[18:29:43] ted.h is a tool to help people understand plumbing.
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[18:32:12] <resnick> Well, outreach is a nice example, related to the previous session that some idiot I know chaired: Outreach is a significant priority of ISOC, but my sense is that it is only a secondary (if not lower) priority of IETF. Yet I hear IAOC and/or IASA folks pushing for it quite often.
[18:33:10] <JoeHallCDT> not sure what that all means, Pete... do you think the IETF community needs to do better outreach? (rather than formal elements of IASA?)
[18:33:50] <suzworldwide> @resnick I'll agree here, these are differing views of what IETF physical meetings are "for"-- the IETF may be better served by different forms of outreach, not tied to meeting-based programs and activities.
[18:33:51] <ted.h> @resnick  The IETF wants to make relevant standards for the Internet; because diverse participation helps that, we want diversity.   It is not wanted for its own sake, in other words, but because it makes our work better.
[18:34:48] <ted.h> @resnick Diverse attendees that do not participate in the work of the IETF do not have the same result.  They may be good for policy reasons (non participants learning that they should not regulate us), but aren't our bailiwick directly.
[18:35:31] <resnick> @ted: I agree, but it does seem that the push for outreach that I hear is about outreach for its own sake, not tied to getting our work done better.
[18:35:33] <ted.h> (speaking for myself, of course, not any dot)
[18:36:01] <akatlas> @resnick:  the type of outreach that is useful for the IETF - to bring in active participants - is useful and needed, IMHO.   I do agree that there are nuances and potential different views.
[18:37:47] <resnick> Well, does going to alternative places for our meetings bring in active participants? I often hear folks who are pushing such things say, “Let’s try to see if it works. And even if it doesn’t, it makes certain companies/governments/communities happy.”
[18:37:56] <Dan York (scribe)> Recording for the jabber notes that Jari is now up talking about Finance Observations
[18:38:29] <resnick> Again, no objection to brining in more workers. Just that it is bringing in new workers that is our priority, not outreach generally.
[18:38:49] <resnick> ISOC has a different priority in that regard.
[18:39:33] <suzworldwide> This topic Jari is talking about right now shows another aspect, where our working methods may be evolving to include more than large meetings but our funding model isn't.
[18:40:11] Dan Romascanu joins the room
[18:40:17] <Dan York (scribe)> "General IASA Observations"
[18:41:20] <resnick> Maybe a better (but more fraught) example of such a conflict: Who employs (i.e., writes the paycheck, does hiring/firing decisions) for the IAD or IETF Counsel?
[18:42:06] <resnick> And whose interest do those people represent? (I *hope* it’s always IETF’s interest over ISOC’s. But sometimes…)
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[18:45:49] <ajs> I am sure that every person involved would say they _are_ representing IETF’s interests, but the problem may just be one of point of view.
[18:46:28] <suzworldwide> @ajs +1, no bad actors here, but sometimes very different perspectives.
[18:47:19] <resnick> Of course. No bad faith here.
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[18:55:04] <ajs> It’s not the “too much work”, it’s that it doesn’t work.  “Single individual has all the state” encourages among other things not enough transparency, because the state-holder can’t remember which things have been exposed and which not
[18:55:30] <ajs> And the state-holder has only  one perspective, which means that attention can be mistaken
[18:56:06] <ajs> I’m not selling short the cost of touching this structure, though -- I agree with Ted about that
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[18:57:09] <suzworldwide> @ajs the cost of touching it may be another sign we need to do that, is there some way to lower some of the overhead?
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[18:57:36] <ajs> Right, and the cost of not touching it may be externalizing costs in ways we aren’t noticing
[18:57:45] <suzworldwide> exactly
[18:58:10] Laura Nugent joins the room
[18:59:05] <Barry Leiba> Eh?  We put all the people in positions of power on the IAOC in order to *prevent* it from becoming a power centre?
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[18:59:45] <ajs> See, restating the goal with different eyes shows sometimes that the approach is not right :)
[19:03:00] <ajs> To what extent is the non-volunteer stuff a consequence of creeping demands, and to what extent the result of faith that the cost can be covered (i.e. the standard of living expanding to meet the available funds because of ISOC’s income from PIR)?
[19:03:52] <Dan York (scribe)> Cullen Jennings at mic
[19:04:20] Aaron Falk joins the room
[19:04:24] <ted.h> Check the tattoo count, to see how far Cullen went into Dave Ward mode.
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[19:07:01] <ajs> But the IAB _can’t_ solve this, because the IAB chair is required to be on the IAOC.  Indeed, during my tenure as the IAB chair there were lots of things for which I did _not_ have the state
[19:07:02] <JoeHallCDT> someone threatened to sue Leslie during the initial IASA setup!?!?
[19:07:17] <ajs> there were a lot of lawsuit things in those days
[19:07:27] <JoeHallCDT> laaaame
[19:07:34] <resnick> It was more than just Leslie who was at risk of being sued.
[19:08:20] <Dan York (scribe)> Leslie Daigle at mic
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[19:08:30] <ajs> To be clear, I do not suggest that the current weaknesses are any bad reflection on the original design here.  I think the structure was good and served us well
[19:08:38] <Dan York (scribe)> Lucy Lynch at mic
[19:08:38] <ajs> but yeah, we shouldn’t be afraid to change things
[19:10:16] <Dan York (scribe)> Jason Livingood at mic
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[19:11:42] <Dan York (scribe)> Bob Hinden at mic
[19:14:18] <ted.h> Paid staff that do technical work is a very different thing from paid staff who enable the volunteers doing the technical work.  
[19:14:34] <resnick> Yeah, I heard that distinction not being made too.
[19:14:39] <Dan York (scribe)> EKR at mic
[19:16:34] <Dan York (scribe)> Kathy Brown at mic
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[19:20:48] <Dan York (scribe)> Alissa Cooper at mic
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[19:22:50] <Dan York (scribe)> Lucy Lynch back at mic
[19:25:09] <Dan York (scribe)> Leslie Daigle at mic
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[19:28:05] <Sean Turner> Jari Arkko @ mic
[19:29:25] <Dan York (scribe)> Dave Crocker at mic
[19:31:31] <Dan York (scribe)> Paul Hoffman at mic
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[19:33:42] <Dan York (scribe)> Ted Hardie at mic
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[19:35:36] <JoeHallCDT> @ted all this indirection... for a new IETFer, what did we waste Russ’ time with during his IAB Chair tenure?
[19:35:49] <Dan York (scribe)> Pete Resnick at mic
[19:37:33] <ted.h> @JoeHallCDT He was nights-and-weekends on the IANA transition.  He did a fabulous job and spent more time and effort than anyone we could have reasonably expected.  But it was like yoking a quarter horse to a plow.  We needed the wheat, and he pulled.  But it was a waste of his talent.
[19:37:58] <JoeHallCDT> Ah, yes, tyvm
[19:38:26] <ajs> It’s not true that all of them were
[19:38:34] <ajs> My first meeting was IETF 64
[19:38:47] <ajs> and I merely saw the IAOC getting set up, I had nothing to do with it
[19:38:56] <Dan York (scribe)> Olaf Kolkman was at mic
[19:39:02] <suzworldwide> @Joe I wouldn't have put Ted's argument quite the way he did, I think of the problem as not always being able to have either IAB or the IAOC match skills to tasks. If the IAOC and the IAB had the whole IAB to choose from for a delegate to the IAOC, they might well both be better off than they are with the current constraint
[19:39:03] <Dan York (scribe)> Now Glen Deen at mic
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[19:39:21] <Dan York (scribe)> s/Glen/Glenn/
[19:39:48] <ajs> That may be true of the IETF chair too, note.  Are we quite sure that we want a prudent and good administrator, a public face, and a board member?
[19:39:54] <ajs> A dessert topping and a floor wax?
[19:40:33] <Dan York (scribe)> Joe Hildebrand at mic
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[19:40:48] <ted.h> @ajs and a competent judge of appeals, and solid technical contributor, and someone who can afford the time?
[19:40:51] <resnick> Did Glenn just conflate administrative on-boarding with technical-work-on-boarding?
[19:41:06] <ajs> @hardie: yes
[19:41:09] <Dan York (scribe)> Most folks in the line have said that there needs to be change(s). Has anyone written up ideas on how it should change?
[19:41:31] <Dan York (scribe)> Alissa Cooper at mic
[19:41:43] <ajs> well, Russ, Ted, and I worked on a draft with specific changes but that didn’t go anywhere
[19:42:14] <JoeHallCDT> yeah, my first IETF was right when Cisco hired Alissa, IETF 89 or so
[19:43:55] <Dan York (scribe)> Richard Barnes at mic
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[19:45:05] <Alissa Cooper> of course I have written up ideas :) but they're not ready for sharing yet.
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[19:45:24] <resnick> Yeah, what that young whipper-snapper is saying.
[19:46:11] <Dan York (scribe)> Alia Atlas at mic
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[19:48:20] <Dan York (scribe)> Ray Pelletier - the IAD - at mic
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[19:53:00] <Dan York (scribe)> Dave Crocker at mic
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[19:55:04] <Dan York (scribe)> EKR at mic
[19:55:16] <ajs> I don’t really understand what’s supposed to be a big deal about not having a lot of recent participants here.  I think that’s another one of those “representativity” issues.
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[19:55:43] <Dan York (scribe)> Gonzalo Camarillo at mic
[19:55:49] <ajs> I know that if you’d asked me about the administrative details three years after I started coming, I would have avoided giving an opinion
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[19:56:44] <JoeHallCDT> @ajs: Well, it’s useful to ask why I’m here and DKG is not (I’m not sure you want DKG here?)
[19:57:04] <JoeHallCDT> I think we’ve both been around for the same amount of time (again, thank you MacArthur Foundation)
[19:57:16] <ajs> I’m not saying you shouldn’t be (or that he should be or not be)
[19:57:40] <ajs> I’m rather saying that it’s not that surprising that people relatively new to an organization are more interested in other activities
[19:57:52] <JoeHallCDT> oh no, just that it’s not the administrivia that attracts people, so I meant to support your questioning the relevance, sorry
[19:57:58] <JoeHallCDT> yeah
[19:58:02] <ajs> ah got it.  Yes
[19:58:05] <JoeHallCDT> and I want DKG hacking!
[19:58:06] <JoeHallCDT> :)
[19:58:10] <Dan York (scribe)> Randy Bush at mic
[20:00:02] <Dan York (scribe)> Alissa Cooper up to close it out
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[20:03:07] <Dan York (scribe)> Sean Turner at mic
[20:03:12] <Dan York (scribe)> Randy Bush at mic
[20:03:13] <Dan York (scribe)> And that's all, folks...
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